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[–]sgthombre 3134 points3135 points  (707 children)

You know we all used to joke about the Halo/Forza/Gears trinity being the only thing Microsoft consistently released with some level of quality but it's crazy to me that the first to potentially drop out of that trinity is Halo.

[–]JordanDoesTV 1485 points1486 points  (302 children)

It’s past potentially like the gameplay has been there, but there’s always been an issue for every 343 release, and infinite launching so barren with no forge feels like a nail in the coffin

[–][deleted] 830 points831 points  (218 children)

Yup, and now there is in fact Forge and a Custom Game browser (the UI is questionable), but nobody knows or even cares when you tell them.

edit: people reply without reading other replies. I swear I've gotten the same notification 10 times from 10 different people

[–]timo103 626 points627 points  (150 children)

Hard to care about forge when people are losing insane amounts of progress because their forge map had stuff like blood in it.

[–]some-lurker 272 points273 points  (140 children)

aren't there actual props of brute and marine corpses in forge?

[–]timo103 418 points419 points  (138 children)

Yeah, and someone got banned for using them.

[–]KuroShiroTaka 43 points44 points  (2 children)

If that's the case then why even have them?

[–][deleted] 87 points88 points  (0 children)

Didn't even know that was thing as I haven't cared to even try the actual Forge out. Sounds like regular old 343 lmao

[–]bl4ckblooc420 50 points51 points  (2 children)

Meanwhile I still have a 20 Elephant Sandtrap Mod for Halo 3 in my file share.

[–]Oh_I_still_here 27 points28 points  (1 child)

You can also lose your progress in a map if you go AFK for a bit.

[–]NEWaytheWIND 498 points499 points  (50 children)

Forge's potential to affect Halo's popularity is overestimated by oldheads.

If your average modern kid wants to skirmish in Bikini Bottom or scrimp out on Mario Party, they do that via Roblox and Minecraft, which are frankly more fitting platforms.

It's usually these gimmicks for which Forge is remembered and touted. But proponents for hyper-casual Halo don't seem to realize it once owned this market only because there was a wide open field. We're talking about 2008; the pre-history of mobile and F2P. 15 frigging years!

Halo needs to work on its core gameplay before relying on community content to prop it up.

[–][deleted] 103 points104 points  (2 children)

Forge and a custom games browser a year later isn’t going to save infinite, but having these basic features on launch would have certainly helped. Although the game had a lot of problems to begin with; bad story, few uninspired maps, lack of basic customization content, no firefight, etc.

Forge and customs is more like the icing on the cake, they can make a good game great but can’t fix a sub-par product.

[–]meta_stable 168 points169 points  (28 children)

I probably fall into the old head category but I never cared about forge in the past games. It was the core gameplay of Halo that I cared about. Multiplayer just doesn't feel the same anymore so I can't be bothered to continue playing.

[–]Tyrone_Asaurus 77 points78 points  (8 children)

I grew up on Halo 2 and love the multiplayer in infinite but it’s problems lie in a major lack of maps, and the maps they have released look like liminal spaces. Also, the playlists don’t meet my criteria, i queue for tactical and 1/5 games i start with a BR, and the other ones i’m starting with a mangler, pistol, or carbine.

[–]zeromussc 31 points32 points  (1 child)

Yeah and who makes the decisions on limiting playlists ? Like, there's no way there's serious dev time built into creating playlist options and it's a regular complaint.

Coop campaign is another issue. Coop campaign has been a thing for a bunch of halo players since halo 2. Launching without that really sucked. It didn't even need to be some 4 player coop monstrosity. But 2 player coop would have been great. Open world was cool I guess in some ways but it also felt like it was causing issues for the game. Lack of chapter replay list to go and collect skulls or collectibles. A lot of the fun of halo in finding that turned to frustration since you couldn't revisit some places even though it feels like you should in an open world game.

And all that comes from leadership and game direction.

Just make a decent story halo game, which infinite was, with cool mechanics and a way to replay chapters for collectible hunting, plus multiplayer coop and multiplayer infinite has now (core gameplay), add the old playlist functions and remove the games as a service monetization scheme they chose and it would have been so much better.

Forge being delayed would have sucked but that's a smaller part of the halo space than nailing the core sp/mp experience.

[–]Svenskensmat 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Open world was cool I guess in some ways but it also felt like it was causing issues for the game.

Like no coop for almost a year.

[–]Uday23 116 points117 points  (11 children)

I still can't believe they launched without co-op.....in a Halo game

[–]Sloth-monger 72 points73 points  (6 children)

I can't believe that they decided couch co op was going to be axed after announcing they would be adding it. That was the only thing I was looking forward to.

[–]Drag0nV3n0m231 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Hell, it launched with less armor customization than halo 3

[–]Uday23 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Yea the Armor core system was a slap in the face

[–]NerrionEU 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not just less but instead of paying $60 and you can unlock everything, you had to pay $1000+ on day 1 to unlock everything.

[–]ToothlessFTW 130 points131 points  (17 children)

It's really depressing, the gameplay in Infinite is GOOD, it's a solid foundation but... there's just no content to back it up. The fact that the game is now well over a year old and we're STILL in Season 2 is just sad.

The Winter Update was a step in the right direction, but it shouldn't have happened 12-13 months after launch.

[–]zimzalllabim 92 points93 points  (2 children)

When your majorly successful franchise is at a point where adding stuff that should already be there, and maybe toning down the excessive cash shop is considered a “step in the right direction”, you done fucked up.

[–]Albuwhatwhat 14 points15 points  (2 children)

I never played halo 5 because I didn’t own an Xbox one but I’ve played every other halo game and loved them. I picked up halo infinite on PC, excited to get back into it. I stopped playing half way thru because I was just losing interest. It was boring. I’m pretty disappointed with how the series turned out for sure.

[–][deleted] 371 points372 points  (86 children)

Am I crazy or has halo not been relevant for over a decade? I know MCC was good, kind of. I also don’t know anyone that actually played it with any regularity.

[–]Ledgo 95 points96 points  (9 children)

I know a lot of Halo fans who dropped when Reach came out, but reach also did a good job bringing new players in and seemed easier to approach. 4 most definitely was the game where the player base knew the good days were gone.

[–]Wallofcans 37 points38 points  (3 children)

My buddies and I played since Halo 1. Reach was our favorite. 4 was definitely when we lost interest. The MCC is a lot of fun for us.

[–]Ledgo 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Reach was good, I wish I valued it a little more when it came off. I was put off by a few of the changes and just thought it was trying too hard with loadouts and such.

[–]FudgingEgo 91 points92 points  (6 children)

Halo has not been relevant, like truly relevant since Halo 3.

Halo Reach was still great but wasn't Halo 3 levels and the MLG scene didn't last anywhere near as long.

Halo has been downhill ever since Bungie left and 343 took over.

[–]AmericanCobra 20 points21 points  (5 children)

It's a mix of that and the absolute explosion of CoD and, subsequently, Fortnite in the gaming zeitgeist. Halo suddenly wasn't THE (as in the ONLY) online shooter to have on consoles. Moreover, arena-style shooters aren't popular anymore. The double-whammy of its (not necessarily outdated but still not-as-popular) gameplay and overall quality both losing their luster is what killed Halo IMO

[–]XxNatanelxX 14 points15 points  (4 children)

The thing is, Halo Infinite was heavily praised by players and critics on launch. Shortly after is when the trouble started.
People started seeing the flaws. The lack of maps. The lack of updates. The lack of progression. The lack, lack, lack.
The bugginess. The lag.

Halo Infinite was a successful return to form and loved by so many for it's gameplay, but let down by everything else.
You can't entertain everyone with just the foundation. Everything around it must work in tandem and in true 343i fashion, they couldn't do it.

Halo wasn't going to overthrow COD. It wasn't coming for Fortnite's throne.
But it has every opportunity to be a fantastic and beloved game, except that it was made by a studio that hadn't made a successful Halo game since they were given the IP.

[–]whatevsmang 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Infinite is the tale of "just because the core gameplay is solid, doesn't mean the whole game is good".

[–]XxNatanelxX 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You're not necessarily wrong, but that's not Halo Infinite's lesson. That lesson was already taught many times by copycat games trying to rip off the original without understanding what makes the original good. The game may work fine, but it's missing something.

No, Halo Infinite is more of a cautionary tale that trying to sell a functioning alpha with a "we'll finish it with updates" doesn't always pay off.

It worked in the past for Microsoft with Sea of Thieves.
But unlike Sea of Thieves, Halo Infinite has actual competition. Some of the biggest games in the industry, in fact.

They were lucky at first with Battlefield's botched launch, but DICE got that game sorted out fast. Constant updates.
Halo Infinite? Crickets.

It's also a lesson in psychology. Many publishers will be taking notes and drawing a nice thick "do not cross" line.
Infinite's battlepass progression was miserable so that you would pay. But it was so miserable, it pushed away most players. Rather than 1% of the playerbase paying and 99% playing for free, you had 0.1% paying, 4.9% playing for free and 95% moving on to better games. These figures are estimated based on absolutely nothing.

There's a lot wrong. A lot of lessons, more than I'm bothered to write. Some will be learned. Others will be repeated.

[–]Coolman_Rosso 52 points53 points  (6 children)

If we're talking about mainstream popularity, you're not wrong. Does the franchise still have fans? Yes. However as much as Microsoft loves to pretend that Halo (and to a lesser extent, Gears of War) is still the major cultural phenomenon that it was from 2004-2010 that is simply not the case.

Once Modern Warfare 2 (the original, not the recent one) hit the scene in 09 it was the beginning of the end.

[–]mzp3256 19 points20 points  (5 children)

I think you're right about Modern Warfare 2 stealing Halo's thunder. It was probably the first online shooting game that was popular on multiple platforms (PC, Xbox, Playstation), while Halo wasn't really that big with PC gamers.

[–]WooWoopSoundOThePULI 15 points16 points  (4 children)

Halo wasn’t available to PC players until recently.

*Halo 2 was but that was 2004 when online gaming was new

[–]FluffyToughy 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Halo 1 also had a PC-only expansion thingy called Custom Edition which was basically full map making tools. It was really fun. Some of the maps were bananas.

[–]jokeres 125 points126 points  (29 children)

I mean, Halo was all about the "feel" of the gunplay, which changed in many ways when 343 took over for Bungie.

Destiny is the spiritual successor in many ways to Bungie's Halo games, at least in terms of the way guns handle. I'd agree that many of the Halo games released since Reach don't even feel like the originals other than setting.

[–]pixelveins 118 points119 points  (16 children)

Editing all my old comments and moving to the fediverse.

Thank you to everybody I've interacted with until now! You've been great, and it's been a wonderful ride until now.

To everybody who gave me helpful advice, I'll miss you the most

[–]IAmHarmony 12 points13 points  (2 children)

MCC is good but was not, if you remember MCC at launch you’d remember the massive amounts of problems that made the game unplayable

[–]RadicalLackey 20 points21 points  (8 children)

I feel the same. People will say it's because 343 has dropped the ball, and I'm sure it plays a role, but even when people admit the core gameplay is good, it just hasn't been relevant with newer generations

[–]P_ZERO_ 249 points250 points  (96 children)

If you’re paying attention to Forza, that community isn’t exactly not criticising either. Horizon has a really nice release veneer, but when you look under the surface, it’s the exact same game as last time just with less in it. Post launch support is also woeful.

[–]RadicalLackey 43 points44 points  (56 children)

You could say the same about CoD, but we have learned players aren't looking for a game that is revolutionary. Sequels apparently just need to feel like they have a fresh coat of paint, not new wheels and engines.

[–]P_ZERO_ 23 points24 points  (34 children)

The problem isn’t so much a “samey” sequel, it’s just that releasing one of those or releasing something different is going to alienate someone.

In regards to Forza, it’s a strange situation. Nothing about the game has necessarily changed in any extremely negative way, but the contrast in reception compared to launch is staggering.

I put a lot of time into 3/4 of the Horizon series (was playing Forza Motorsport since the first) and to me, playing 5 couldn’t have been more obviously lazy and copy paste. The vast majority of the work, loosely speaking, is the modelling of vehicles and their physics. Those things existed for the most part for at least 2 games prior. No QoL improvements, a relatively barren landscape and the same tedious festival organiser come Amazon delivery driver campaign, no reliable anti cheat or leaderboard cleansing.

I won’t get into the characters/dialogue/story as it’s fairly subjective and many won’t put any stock into it but to me it was absolutely unbearable. Un-human caricatures of people who’s only emotions were perpetual glee and kid like wonder.

[–]RadicalLackey 14 points15 points  (32 children)

I never played the Horizon series but tried 5. I thought it was well made, very well presented... but then it sort of stopped? The progression for cars wasn't really as engaging and while I loved the setting, the driving didn't feel "special" enough. I just didn't feel like investing more time in it.

So I get what you mean on that front!

[–]Coolman_Rosso 9 points10 points  (4 children)

A big issue in Horizon is that they just absolutely shower you with credits and cars. It's not quite as egregious in 5, but still pretty severe. In previous games you could redeem loyalty credits based on your "Reward Tier" which was based on your overall statistics across the entire Forza franchise (Cars owned, time played, miles driven, achievements earned, etc) from FM2 up until FH4. As a result if you actually redeemed these weekly bonuses you could get up 400,000 free no questions asked each week which exacerbated this tenfold. They stopped doing this in the run up to FH5's release.

[–]RyanB_ 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I wouldn’t really say that’s an issue necessarily; it’s just a product of what the game is. There’s lots of other titles that do offer that sense of progression. Horizon is much more about being - to paraphrase Noah Caldwell Gervais - a box of hot wheels for adults. Part of the appeal to a lot of us who enjoy it is being able to hop in almost immediately and chose between a new McLaren or an old Ford pickup, with each offering it’s own valid means of play

I get it ain’t what a lot of folks are looking for, but tons of other games are. Horizon, while flawed, satisfies it’s particular corner of that market well imo

[–]lefiath 11 points12 points  (4 children)

Sequels apparently just need to feel like they have a fresh coat of paint, not new wheels and engines.

You have to realize that if people like something, they tend to like it for certain defining features - for example, I like Battlefield for plenty of reasons, class system being one of them.

So when they came up with BF2042, even forgetting all the technical issues, introducing heroes was one of the reasons that killed the game for me - was it "inventive" for the title? Sure, I guess, it's something that didn't exist in any previous Battlefields, and it's certainly new and different, and for me, one of the strong reasons to never pick the game up.

You can change things, but the more you change, the more you risk alienating people, as you change the things that attracted them to begin with. What I care about is amount of content and it's quality, but that's not cool for marketing to promote to people, they need some buzzwords and some new shit to sell.

[–]CrabsolutelyBullshit 108 points109 points  (26 children)

Forza Horizon is the most soulless game I've ever played.

[–]sayssomeshit94 37 points38 points  (8 children)

Can’t speak for the first two but after 3 it seemed all downhill. I will say the driving feels the best in 5 but every time I turn that game on I do maybe one race and drive around the block and end up turning it off. At least with 4 I could sit there tuning cars all day especially since I had my own little “test route” right out the festival that kept me playing for hours.

[–]CrabsolutelyBullshit 49 points50 points  (3 children)

It's all just so much. You can't even sneeze in that game without unlocking a new hypercar. There's just constant unlocks and new things to do that it's actually overwhelming. Then there's the characters and dialogue, and it feels like some corporate conference. Just fake positivity and enthusiasm.

I miss when games like Need for Speed did the open world thing and felt a little more edgy and interesting.

[–]Ixziga 106 points107 points  (56 children)

Probably because they're the first one that stopped being developed by the same studio

[–]2160dreams 42 points43 points  (13 children)

Potentially? Oh no, Halo dropped out of the quality trinity with Halo 5, and you could see the signs of a fall from grace with Halo 4. Unfortunately this seems to coincide with 343i taking over from Bungie.

[–]WhiteHelljumper 12 points13 points  (0 children)

343 has dropped the ball with every Halo game they've done.

Halo 4 had shit multiplayer.

MCC had broken multiplayer and broken online co-op, which took them 4 years to fix.

Halo 5 had a shit campaign.

Infinite is probably the worst one, with a shot and broken multiplayer, and the campaign, while all right, was pretty mediocre with no replayability.

[–]TheWorldisFullofWar 109 points110 points  (41 children)

Halo was the only one that lost its original developers in their entirety so it is pretty believable. Then Microsoft blatantly says they want to milk the shit out of the series like it was Star Wars.

[–]grokthis1111 115 points116 points  (24 children)

i mean, it could have been a big thing. but they chose to do the shitty tv show and shitty games.

[–]WishCameTru 118 points119 points  (23 children)

The TV shows how much of a non-effort they put into the franchise. Like, it isn't even a good standalone show.

[–]cantonic 50 points51 points  (16 children)

It’s genuinely surprising after 20 years of being one of the biggest IPs in gaming and they finally adapt it and it’s… that.

I’m sure it’s hard to distill why Halo became so popular and translate that to a different medium but, well they certainly did make something, whatever you’d like to call it.

[–]TaleOfDash 24 points25 points  (0 children)

The thing is they've done it before but in a smaller format. All those mini series/specials they put out around Halo 4/5's release I thought were, if not good, fun to watch.

I also enjoyed a lot of the novels, honestly. There was a lot to pull from to understand what makes Halo good in other media and they just chose not to do it.

[–]HuntForBlueSeptember 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Like the fucking Halo commercials were better than that show.

Even the Forward Onto Dawn too.

[–]imsabbath84 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Someone at 343 had to have green-lite the script and all that, so theyre just as much to blame as well.

[–]NC16inthehouse 8 points9 points  (1 child)

It's even more depressing when you compare it with The Last of Us. That's an adaptation done right not this abomination where Master Cheeks had sex with a Covenant POW.

[–]Mech-Noir 16 points17 points  (10 children)

Then Microsoft blatantly says they want to milk the shit out of the series like it was Star Wars.

Except that's not what happened at all. They didn't even do any spin offs besides Halo Wars 2.

[–]HuntForBlueSeptember 9 points10 points  (5 children)

This may be an unpopular opinion but Halo Wars is the best non Bungie Halo work there is.

[–]Mech-Noir 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Honestly yes. The blur cutscenes carried it though.

[–]HuntForBlueSeptember 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I mean the stories were solid, so were the characters.

I cared more about that little ship that could than Infinity.

[–]Bluecar93 84 points85 points  (32 children)

Also arena shooters just aren't as popular as in the past. My hot take is that even if they released 4-5 maps last year they would have still lost a lot of players. No forge was a mistake on launch no doubt.

[–]ascagnel____ 81 points82 points  (21 children)

Yeah, that style of "pure" arena shooter isn't as popular anymore -- either there's some progression/unlock system (CoD), or it's round-based (CS:GO, Valorant), or there's heroes (TF2, Overwatch), or it's a battle royale (Warzone, Fortnite, PUBG) or otherwise large-scale, combined-arms thing (Battlefield, Squad).

That said, I'm kind of bummed we haven't seen a new take on "gun game" -- the only one of those that ships anything similar is CS:GO, and that mode has been unchanged since the game shipped more than a decade ago, as far as I can tell. The type gives you a CoD-style weapon progression, but over the course of a single match.

[–]Mech-Noir 20 points21 points  (3 children)

otherwise large-scale, combined-arms thing (Battlefield, Squad).

Personally this is why I loved the Warzone mode in Halo 5. Combined arms is when casual Halo is at it's best. Drifting around the map while your team has several warthogs up is just an awesome experience. The vehicles/BTB is what made Halo for me as a kid.

What's even funnier is a lot of the aspects of Warzone(bosses, AI units running around mp matches) are now in super popular games yet this casual mode is completely absent from Infinite.

I honestly think their over-reliance on catering to the competitive crowd is in part what killed Halo for the wider audience. Sorry but the days of MLG are long gone. Nobody cares about competitive Halo.

I would love to see a larger mode in Halo, maybe 48 Spartans on a large map with multiple objectives, maybe could eve fly Pelicans etc. This is what I was looking for in newer Halo games.

Halo Infinite's multiplayer felt like a demo for a wider Halo game... There was no substance to it.

[–]HuntForBlueSeptember 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Warzone vs AI was amazing.

Warzone pvp felt really pay to win when people got enough to just break out big shit to stomp you with.

[–]asdaaaaaaaa 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Agreed. You need to have a varied amount of options for the player, or have an outright (good) sandbox mode for them to build their own games. At least for multiplayer. It's insane how much money they're throwing away. Handled correctly, I have no doubt kids could still be losing their minds over the next Halo release.

[–]VanicFanboy 172 points173 points  (24 children)

Imo Gears hasn’t been top quality for a while.

[–]Ixziga 160 points161 points  (5 children)

Gears 4 was a little bit of an identity crisis but gears 5 I thought redefined itself enough to be really good, at least from a campaign perspective, I never really played gears versus.

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (1 child)

The thing about 4 and 5's PvP is that they started off rather rough whether it be server side issues with 4 or a terrible marketplace/unlock system with 5. Once they had about a year to fix things, they became really good in the PvP aspect, but it's a little too late by that time. They simply need to get the launch of 6 right and keep the general gameplay from 5. It'll be a homerun if they can manage it.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yupp, I played MLG for gears one. Can confirm gears 5 is the best pvp content since gears one.

[–]pnt510 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I feel like Gears quality is still there, maybe 4 was a bit of a misstep, but 5 was excellent. It's just the world has moved on. The only people still playing Gears are hardcore Gears fans.

[–]nuraHx 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Gears 5 is GREAT

[–]ApprehensiveEast3664 49 points50 points  (3 children)

Gears was only notably fantastic for the first 3 games. Changing studios after Epic was done with it just led to the series spinning its wheels with an identity crisis and nothing remarkable. The ship is still sailing, and that's about the best you can say about it.

[–]joman584 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Changing studios is the same problem halo has. Basically Microsoft needs to let things be as they are and not milk them instantly

[–]chakrablocker 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Imagine if PS still had naughty dog making crash bandicoot games and insomniac had to just shovel out ratchet and clank

[–]asdaaaaaaaa 11 points12 points  (6 children)

Not really the same, but I heard Gears Tactics was quite good.

[–]niknacks 968 points969 points  (132 children)

I'm wondering if we have reached a bit of a precipice in the gaming industry. Between reports like this and some of the news coming out of Ubi, it seems like these huge devs are just too big to effectively produce anything with consistency. I just imagine how much waste is generated as a result of every decision having to run up and down the corporate chain just to get anything done.

Seems like nearly every mega producer in the industry went from pumping out annual products that have since grown market stale to this nightmare where they now take 5+ years to release anything and even when it comes out its got a very nice veneer of polish but any scrutiny, it gets exposed as a soulless empty shell or so riddle with monetization to make up for the inflated development costs that it turns off any potential audience they may have had.

[–]Multicron 327 points328 points  (26 children)

See also: Marvel’s Avengers

[–]ZeroDwayne 80 points81 points  (12 children)

Soon to be: The suicide squad

[–]pSyChO_aSyLuM 33 points34 points  (6 children)

And then Square Enix published Guardians of the Galaxy shortly after and it was amazing. Unfortunately it didn't sell all that well initially because of Avengers. It was $35 within a few months.

[–]Jaklcide 350 points351 points  (22 children)

The whole reason independent studios are still killing it and AAA devs are bombing, independents have no unqualified investors with no liability sitting on a board making uneducated decisions on how video game companies should run with the option to leave anytime they choose with no consequence. This is what a company is held prisoner to the moment they seek to go public or get bought by a publicly traded company.

[–]xCairus 71 points72 points  (4 children)

The vast majority of indie games aren’t really “killing it” it just so happens that there are so many indie games being churned out that the greats get noticed and the mediocrities fall into oblivion. There are still AAA games that are really good. Elden Ring, Monster Hunter and Baldur’s Gate 3 for example, aren’t games that I would call soulless.

[–]shrippen 32 points33 points  (8 children)

I sincerely hope that wont Happen to Obsidian... That would really suck.

[–]Smoothw 30 points31 points  (3 children)

Definitely seems like an arms race where more and more companies will give up trying to release products at the highest end because it's just too expensive/takes too long, duopoly or even monopoly in the future?

[–]bolomon7 5 points6 points  (0 children)

More likely we see more independent studios pop up as indie games get more and more popular. There are so many diamonds on display but people arent picking them up.

[–]LLJKCicero 5 points6 points  (1 child)

People have been saying things like this for years but the budgets have just gotten bigger...

[–]Essentialredditor 71 points72 points  (15 children)

Square Enix has been ahead of the curve for years now in that case.

[–]klinestife 97 points98 points  (13 children)

at least squenix listened to "our most famous brand's reputation will be irreparably damaged if we don't salvage it" and ff14 2.0 came out of it.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (3 children)

You really hit the nail on the head there better than anyone else has tbh.

Been a damn shame watching this unfold for 15 years with WoW and Blizzard

[–]OverHaze 51 points52 points  (8 children)

Lootboxes are effectively dead (thankfully), battle passes miss more than they hit and NFT's where a non-starter. The major Publishers are out of exploitative bullcrap to prop up financial growth. So yeah we are probably looking at a period of contraction.

Also big developers, particularly western ones, are having real trouble making games that connect with an audience the way AAA games did in the past. I think that comes from having to be all things to all people in order to make a profit. You lose your personality.

[–]Villag3Idiot 31 points32 points  (2 children)

Because so many games wants to be live service, but they're are so many live service games out there that unless it explodes in popularity, why would people abandon the one they're already invested in, likely for years already?

[–]That-Hipster-Gal 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Live service also requires actual effort to be put in by companies. Many think that if they lock 90% of multi-player skins behind a battle pass players will eat it up. Instead many stop playing the game entirely.

Halo, for example sat dormant for months and they still act like it's live service.

[–]Xianified 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Lootboxes are far from dead. Look at literally any sports game for evidence of that.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (4 children)

As someone whose worked (very briefly) in that field: this is more of a talking point than people might realize.

I think the imagined process of making a game is one of an executed vision (either by some auteur, or some contingent group of developers). That story invariably feeds into itself--and the public gets this growing idealized picture of executing a game as being akin to executing a work of arts/humanities (despite numerous reports that seem to suggest otherwise).

In reality things are more sus--as you've pointed out: it's typically a money question: such and such purchases so and so labor, then they more or less they just bang out whatever.

Game developers actually sort of fetishize and even praise this process (askagamdev epitomizes this idea that a game is nothing more than a pragmatic exercise--I suspect this view gains a lot of favorable traction because it's also conveniently in servitude to the ego of the developers involved).

And the just-make-do with what labor we have even kinda even makes sense. Production does often evolve into just a pseudo-profundity ratio, of budget/time. Mythical Man-month stuff.

The game industry knows there's this disconnection too, of the perception of design versus what actually happens (that making a game more depends on access to labor/time/money than creativity). Which is maybe why the marketing of a game often focuses on creative execution and community (think of all of Bungie's faux documentaries concerning Destiny).

[–]nicbsc 550 points551 points  (70 children)

It took 15 years of catastrophic fails for them to change management at 343. I wonder how many broken/lackluster games have to be launched and how much money have to be wasted to MS change the way they manage their studios.

[–]Aldous-Huxtable 161 points162 points  (6 children)

It's freakin wild when you think about it. Bungie delivered all the classic games in the series in less than 10 years time. Since then the IP has just languished in a cycle of disappointment and nothingness.

[–]cp5184 24 points25 points  (0 children)

To be fair, at least for 2 bungie crunched like hell for quite a long time and it was basically a nightmare for the team as I understand it.

Plus the texture ripping or whatever on the original xbox was pretty crazy.

[–]PaintItPurple 291 points292 points  (14 children)

Supposedly, they weren't really allowed to manage their own studio — Microsoft forced them to lean heavily on contractors rather than hiring and developing employees for key positions. If that's the case, it's not hard to see why they struggled.

[–]nicbsc 50 points51 points  (1 child)

This is also MS fault. It's the way they manage their business.

[–]Odd_Radio9225 103 points104 points  (3 children)

Wasn't half the team that made Halo Infinite made up of contractors?

[–]sephiroth70001 16 points17 points  (0 children)

It's not just that contractors are the issue. It's how Microsoft handles them for TAX reasons. No contractor can stay contracted for more than 18 months, or they can become an employee. So it's constant 18 month refresh cycle of developers learning what the four people did before them and trying to build off that.

[–]-Shoebill- 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Well looking at Windows it's been a trainwreck of half finished ideas on top of half finished ideas since Windows 8. Their aimless corporate rot seems to be in everything except their cloud server division.

It's frankly embarrassing that such a large company cannot replace the Control Panel or multiple layers of legacy UI elements for 2 decades now on top of making the modern UI worse with weird lag in odd places with each new iteration. Why does the Task Manager freeze up to the point the mouse cursor stops responding briefly and spikes CPU usage when opened? So bizarre. In 2022 the Control Panel in W11 was just starting to use symlinks to point to the replacements in Settings.

[–]jayenn7 45 points46 points  (20 children)

15 years might be a bit of hyperbole considering halo 4 just turned 10 barely a few months ago

[–]Finalshock 55 points56 points  (19 children)

Started in July 2007, their first game wasn’t h4, it was CE Anniversary edition. It’s not really hyperbole either, they’ve never launched a single game without huge gameplay impacting issues.

[–]beefcat_ 21 points22 points  (6 children)

Halo Anniversary shipped in 2011, after Reach.

I don't know where you're getting July 2007 from, that was before Halo 3 even came out.

[–]Pause_ 25 points26 points  (5 children)

343 was created in 2007 cause Bungie had no interest in making more halo games after H3 and only made a deal to do H3 ODST and Halo Reach while the transition would take place. 343 worked on Halo CE Anniversary and some Halo Reach support (the title update) during that time.

[–]kittentarentino 161 points162 points  (10 children)

This isn’t surprising. Halo has an identity problem, and no direction they’ve taken it has even slightly figured out how to keep it alive.

I mean they just finished a trilogy which is literally 3 soft reboots in a row. Their “Halo: infinite” just lost its narrative team and is now “halo: finite”.

Multiplayer has always been fun, but as games advance and trends change, it’s suite seems painfully more barebones as years go on. Especially with the paid transactions this time being so brutally minimal. “Get 15 levels to unlock the regular gauntlets V2 with slight discoloration!

Their games needs somebody who has a dream for it, it’s starting to all feel lifeless

[–]Kimosabae 1583 points1584 points  (217 children)

It's been 9 years since Phil Spencer took over the Xbox brand and I still have no idea what the "brand" even is at this point.

[–][deleted] 1036 points1037 points  (53 children)

Game pass and playing games from your phone.

Microsoft appears to be focusing on paying others to develop games for them, and focusing on being a service.

They are clearly fighting with Steam and Apple right now on 2 different fronts, but the developers on their teams are... Meh or overworked or both.

[–]insmek 262 points263 points  (22 children)

Game pass and playing games from your phone.

That's it exactly. Microsoft has pushed software as a service across the board and it shows with their Xbox brand as well. It's why they're trying to put Game Pass on as many devices as possible and why you can buy Xbox consoles directly on a payment plan bundled with Game Pass.

[–]kerkuffles 30 points31 points  (1 child)

Microsoft appears to be focusing on paying others to develop games for them, and focusing on being a service.

That would make sense if MS isn't spending billions on acquiring devs and publishers.

Who, in turn, don't publish any games...

MS is so fucking weird. They've been buying studios for over half a decade now, and we're still waiting for Phil Spencer to realize the gains.

[–]MasahikoKobe 223 points224 points  (73 children)

People seem to love Phil because he wasnt the last guy and presents much better. That being said i am not sure ~why~ people like Phil. The division he runs is kinda a train wreck.

[–]Shiro2809 152 points153 points  (50 children)

Imo, he has good pr and says things that sound good, regardless of if Xbox actually does them. Because of him a lot of people see Xbox as the "good guy" and Sony as the "bad guy".

It looks like less people are buying into what he's been saying though.

[–]FickleSmark 102 points103 points  (3 children)

They took the stance of games staying $60 while not releasing anything, They immediately went up to $70 when they actually had games to release. How did people respond? "Wow gamepass is even more of a value!", As if thay makes any sense.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I mean this is basic psychological pricing, people should know better.

[–]BlasterPhase 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And when the inevitable gamepass price increase is mentioned, they're quick to defend that as well.

[–]MasahikoKobe 43 points44 points  (1 child)

I see him turning into a Todd Howard figure. People like him but its going to be "Lie to me more Phil!"

[–]Yellow90Flash 150 points151 points  (31 children)

I always laugh at this. people always praise phil to the heavens because he is a true "gamer" that plays 200h of vampire survivers in a week and shit on Jim Ryan in the meantime because "he isn't a gamer" or somthing like that. one leads a well oiled company that consistantly drops high quality games and delivers great content while the other is a trainwreck regarding their first party studio and all he is good at is spending his parent companies money.

same thing with gamepass, whenever ps+ is mentioned peopel will shit on it like its completeley worthless when it actualy adds a lot more AAA titels to its library and has a bigger library then gamepass as well and meanwhile they will praise gamepass for adding so many indie titels and getting day 1 xbox titels (which never release due to the issues mentioned above)

[–]SacredGray 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Rumor has it that Hasbro started making idiotic moves about monetizing D&D because they hired a couple execs from Microsoft who told them that they were under-monetizing D&D.

I wonder what the Venn diagram is of people who are outraged at what Hasbro is currently trying with the OGL, versus the people who think of Microsoft as any sort of "good guy."

[–]LiftsLikeGaston 154 points155 points  (25 children)

Their brand is buying other developers and then letting them make games for them. Which is awful.

[–]Inner-Dentist1563 95 points96 points  (11 children)

Buying other developers, gutting their talent and then wondering why they continue to release shit games. That's their brand. I would happily buy an Xbox if they ever released any games on it.

[–]JayCFree324 70 points71 points  (16 children)

Pretty sure the primary Xbox brand is Heavy multiplayer focus: Gears, Halo, Grounded, Sea of Thieves, State of Decay…even Bleeding Edge & Crackdown 3 were pretty heavy on MP, and Scalebound was going to be a co-op game.

I think the idea was that wanting to play games with your friends would hook you into the ecosystem (when there’s peer pressure) better than single-player focused adventures.

Sony hasn’t really had a need to develop a MP killer app because they’ve relying on CoD deals instead of developing a new SOCOM, or improving Killzone, or reviving Resistance, or putting any marketing hype whatsoever behind TLOU Factions

[–]echo-128 78 points79 points  (4 children)

primary Xbox brand is Heavy multiplayer focus

/was/, back before xbox one launched disastrously. it was the go to for multiplayer. But losing their audience combined with everyone else getting on the same level means that branding has been gone for a very long time.

No one thinks of multiplayer when they think of xbox now, multiplayer is just an expectation of every system

[–]DrVagax 115 points116 points  (2 children)

I still remember the promise of a first-party Microsoft game hitting Game Pass every quarter of the year.

[–]aimlessdrivel 145 points146 points  (15 children)

My perception is that Microsoft overvalues IP and undervalues talent. They want to release Gears 6, Halo 7, and Forza Horizon 9 like they're Microsoft Office iterations. Instead they need to focus on keeping or cultivating studio talent and letting them make new IPs. For as much as sequels are a "sure thing" I think people get bored of a series after three games and want something new and fresh.

[–]glarius_is_glorious 71 points72 points  (7 children)

MS has a real inability to let go of franchises once its creative juices fade.

Sony and Nintendo both have entire libraries of IP with fans constantly on the look out for new releases, but they mostly don't because they know that releasing a bad or mediocre game in said franchises can tarnish them for a long time.

[–]svrtngr 41 points42 points  (6 children)

Unless you're Pokémon.

[–]man0warr 31 points32 points  (5 children)

Nintendo doesn't tell GameFreak how to make Pokemon, at least so long as it continues printing money.

[–]SemperScrotus 21 points22 points  (4 children)

They want to release Gears 6, Halo 7, and Forza Horizon 9 like they're Microsoft Office iterations.

I mean...they have watched competitors' franchises like Call of Duty and FIFA do exactly that with incredible success.

[–]tobz619 24 points25 points  (1 child)

CoD puts more effort and polish into a single one of its three core game modes than the last three Halos COMBINED

[–]josenight 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I dunk on cod, but this is true. Halo has fallen off since the 360 days.

[–]trooperdx3117 1179 points1180 points  (319 children)

At some point all this disfunction has to roll back up to Phil Spencer right?

He seems to have done a great job turning around the business model of the Xbox brand and pushing the Gamepass experience.

But it seems like the actual game development part of Microsoft (You know the nuts and bolts) is still severely lacking.

Outside of the Horizon games there hasn't been any fundamentally exciting or well received First person game coming from the Microsoft studios.

It really seems like something fundamentally going wrong with the actual game development side considering how many studios MS owns right now and yet they have very little to show for it.

[–]canad1anbacon 351 points352 points  (1 child)

At some point all this disfunction has to roll back up to Phil Spencer right?

Well before he was head of xbox he was the head of their first party studios so...yeah

[–]Hulksmashreality 60 points61 points  (0 children)

Exactly. People tend to forget that.

[–]MrDabollBlueSteppers 446 points447 points  (47 children)

But it seems like the actual game development part of Microsoft (You know the nuts and bolts)

Don't know if it's intentional but it's a great dig at their game development with Rare

[–]TheCookieButter 178 points179 points  (9 children)

As a big BK fan that was actually a fun (albeit empty feeling) game that could have been a great new IP. Instead of Threeie we got some skinned eniterly other game.

That said, I made a car that shot out a bullet with folding wings like somekind of winged escape pod and that was a fantastic piece of gaming.

[–]Takashiari275 90 points91 points  (1 child)

Heck it could've been cool as a spin off still. If Banjo Threeie was released for Xbox 360 as well I think no one would've been mad at Nuts & Bolts. It's just that it was released instead of Banjo Threeie that disappointed people.

[–]DoctorWaluigiTime 48 points49 points  (1 child)

Yeah, it could've been a Diddy Kong Racing kind of deal. But not only did it replace something the public yearned for after two incredible games, we got "car-building game." Not only was that a huge let-down, but the game also went out of its way to critique and make jokes about the first two games. Whether the goal was to be tongue-in-cheek or otherwise, it just came off as mean-spirited and did an already-shaky wide empty world game no favors at all.

"Haha look at you idiots just running place collecting 10 billion things in a line what an outdated unfun concept."

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (1 child)

I would've loved a Nuts n Bolts 2 even. I know Rare is barely the Rare that people remember, but I'd still love to see literally any of their properties get revived. Banjo, Viva Pinata, Conker, or even Grabbed By The Ghoulies/Kameo.

[–]Kaellian 92 points93 points  (21 children)

It really seems like something fundamentally going wrong with the actual game development side considering how many studios MS owns right now and yet they have very little to show for it.

Purchasing big studios that are falling apart for the license seem like a great deal, but that's what you get in the end. The artist and programmers that made the magic happens are already gone, and the place is probably filled with a bloated and inefficient work environment, and employee who care just less about the project than the original creator.

[–]ShoddyPreparation 518 points519 points  (32 children)

It’s not surprising when you look at the track record.

For all the money tossed around, I have not felt modern Microsoft has found a voice as a games maker. They seem all over the place and shifting focuses with projects in trouble one after another and it just screams of bad upper management.

Early 360 from 2005-2011 was maybe the last period they felt like they knew what they where doing and executing on most levels.

Buying 3rd party publishers almost felt like a quiet omission that they knew their in house team wasn’t working so they bought a entire new lineup to hope and fix things. But it still just seems like burning money instead of fixing a fire problem. Look at how much XGS has expanding since 2017 but how little has shipped from them.

[–]Shad0wDreamer 152 points153 points  (6 children)

A lot of their in house teams were shuttered or split leading up to the Xbox One. Epic was never their studio to begin with. Beyond Halo, Fable, and Forza, none of the big titles were even made by their own teams.

[–]ascagnel____ 69 points70 points  (5 children)

Even of those three games, only one (Forza) from that era was made by an internal team (Turn 10 Studios) -- Fable was Lionhead Studios, Halo was Bungie (which MS acquired, but the studio heads bought it back shortly after Halo 3 released).

[–]thekbob 92 points93 points  (9 children)

This is actually more accurate to Microsoft's full past in game making.

In the days before Xbox, PC gamers were always getting a hard left from Microsoft and their support. They always did weird stuff at the whims of the higher up.

The 360 era helped solidify a solid games division, but whatever happened at the end of that period, they've never recovered.

I still remember when they tried to push Games for Windows LIVE on PC gamers. What a crap show; I'm pretty certain there's still a few games out there permanently broken due to that shutting down.

I think Microsoft's gaming success is the exception to their history overall.

[–]GoodGood34 40 points41 points  (3 children)

I thought I had removed Games for Windows LIVE from my memory. Thanks for bringing that pain back up lol

[–]thekbob 14 points15 points  (2 children)

You're welcome. My poor physical copy of Dawn of War 2 being a goddamned coaster.

[–]AstroNaut765 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I still remember when they tried to push Games for Windows LIVE on PC gamers. What a crap show; I'm pretty certain there's still a few games out there permanently broken due to that shutting down

Yeah, at that time Ms should come in and say no to intrusive DRM. Maybe then they wouldn't have lost to steam.

[–]achedsphinxx 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Buying 3rd party publishers almost felt like a quiet omission that they knew their in house team wasn’t working so they bought a entire new team to hope and fix things.

kind of like a reverse Nintendo. though the switch is doing really well with the indies to shore up the lack of third-party support.

[–]ILoveTheAtomicBomb 102 points103 points  (6 children)

Bonnie Ross was awful and MS did nothing about it.

I have no faith they'll know how to properly handle the publishers they've acquired either.

[–]DigiQuip 42 points43 points  (2 children)

There’s a reason Microsoft is opening the checkbook and buying massive publishers instead of cultivating smaller studios and building them up.

[–]omarfw 64 points65 points  (2 children)

And nobody was surprised by this revelation. It's the same problem that made Bioware fall from it's previous glory, if not the issue that is likely killing most AAA studio potential currently. Greedy, incompetent, ignorant non-gamers ending up in middle management positions through nepotism and then proceeding to stifle all of the creativity and risk taking.

Designing your game to appease wall street and nobody else is a good way to ensure your franchise and studio will fail, but good luck convincing any of the idiots managing these AAA studios of that.

[–]cyberneticmemories 558 points559 points  (73 children)

This is why I'm so critical of the believers of the Activision acquisition because Microsoft will be able to "turn them around."

Like bro what evidence do we have to indicate Microsoft will do anything of the sort?

[–]spongeloaf 37 points38 points  (0 children)

They'll put just Overwatch and Diablo on game pass and then head for a strip club. As the brand dies from mismanagement, they'll just layoff people to reduce overhead and buy another big name.

[–][deleted] 83 points84 points  (0 children)

The reaction to the Blizzard acquisition by many feels like a lot of wishful thinking - as if Blizzard is buying these IPs to "save" them from Activision's practices. No, they're buying them because Activision's practices are profitable.

[–]the8bitguy 39 points40 points  (0 children)

This whole thing is gross. Not only are developers getting let go, but I’d be willing to bet the higher ups aren’t. The ones responsible for this shit show are probably fine, or at least didn’t have the deep cuts the dev staff did.

On top of that, MS is trying to spend almost $70 billion while saying they just don’t have the resources to keep their own people employed. Pretty evil imo.

I’m mad at both companies. 343 for letting the franchise get to this dire point under their watch; and Microsoft for trying to spend a small nation’s GDP while firing 10,000 people.

[–]A115115 41 points42 points  (0 children)

I’d love to finally get a tell all from someone at 343 who can explain exactly what happened during the development of H4, H5 and Infinite and how it’s all gone wrong.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

They always have been. The only thing they know how to do is spend money from Microsoft's war chest, which was earned by other divisions (Windows, Azure, M365 subs, etc). Without that money, and services built on the back of other divisions, they would have gone out of business long ago.

[–]thewetwetmud 77 points78 points  (9 children)

And people in this sub are genuinely excited about these MS acquisitions. From a monopolistic stance its a disaster for the industry.

The fact that MS and Xbox are incompetent make it even worse.

[–]lifendeath1 7 points8 points  (1 child)

It's almost a spectator sport, I've always found it wierd when gaming's spaces fawn over acquisitions, from Bethesda to obsidian, to bungie and Activision. It's wierd and cultist behaviour.

[–]SacredGray 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's because Gamers (TM) are the absolute worst. They are wholly immature. They don't care about the health of the industry. They don't care about encouraging creativity and encouraging competition.

They just.... hate Nintendo, resent Sony, pirate everything under the sun under the guise of "emulation," and stan Microsoft and Valve.

[–]CrawdadMcCray 80 points81 points  (13 children)

I know both Sony and Microsoft are buying up all these devs but the one thing Sony really does that stands out is support them after they buy them. They don't just tell them to make a game and then back off, they give them the support they need from other devs or divisons.

[–]ThePrinceMagus 94 points95 points  (3 children)

Sony literally dedicated a billion dollars to talent retention when they acquired Bungie.

Meanwhile Microsoft is about to take a scalpel to the work force at their Zenimax studios...

[–]c010rb1indusa 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Probably helps that Sony has had decades of experience in the Music and Film industry that have left them better suited to deal with creative projects. Microsoft has no such experience. There's a funny story about Bill Gates touring Bungie when the original Xbox was being developed and he was taken aback that they had an in-house composer and said something along the likes of "you mean you make the music here?". Like he saw game development as just another software project, not something creative or artistic like a making a film and I wouldn't be surprised if that attitude still exists at MS or c-suite execs who don't understand gaming.

[–]SacredGray 54 points55 points  (1 child)

Sony isn't "buying up all these devs." Not nearly on the scale that Microsoft is doing.

Sony works with studios, shakes their hand, actually builds a relationship with them, and cooperates with them over many projects, and MAYBE considers a purchase, years down the line, after considering all the pro's and cons. And purchases happen once in a while.

Microsoft.... just plants its flag, slaps a stack of money down, and says "you work for us now, okay bye." MS acquires companies very frequently, and they acquired the world's biggest publisher. That's way different from buying a studio or two every few years. That's buying several studios all at once.

[–]Q_OANN 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Microsoft also just went full blown buying biggest publishers, not just single studios

[–]MikeDunleavySuperFan 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Its incredible just how they’ve destroyed one of the greatest franchises in gaming history with a near unlimited amount of support from microsoft.

[–]Sputniki 241 points242 points  (53 children)

None of this really surprises anyone anymore. Microsoft's management of various studios has squandered so much potential over the years that I weep with every acquisition they make.

I have no problem with studios being bought and sold, it's a reality of every industry, but the more Microsoft buy, the more talent is unfortunately wasted and micromanaged to death.

[–]rock1m1 55 points56 points  (8 children)

Micromanage? I thought the problem was they don't interfere at all.

[–]apertureskate 135 points136 points  (41 children)

For real. They've already got more studios than Sony - not counting the ones under ABK - and they're still behind in terms of games produced. And when they do make something, it ain't even that good. MS are straight up not on the competition's level at getting the most out of their studios.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (1 child)

It was so funny seeing people on this sub and others make excuses for this game up to its launch. There was no co-op, so what did you have random dummies saying? "Stop being so entitled. Just wait until it's added!". No forge? "Stop being so entitled. Wait until it's added!". Horrible customization meant to nickel and dime? "The game's not out yet! They'll fix it!". Welp, people waited and guess what? They lost interest. The game is as good as dead now.

I really don't understand how anyone could give this incompetent studio the benefit of the doubt for Infinite when they've completely ruined the franchise long before this game. People seem to have goldfish memories when it comes to the gaming industry.

[–]El_kal91 31 points32 points  (12 children)

It's funny how PlayStation actually spent an extra billion to keep the developers and then you have Microsoft spending over 70B on acquisitions and can't even keep 10K employees lol

[–]MrZombikilla 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Halo took a nose dive once 343 was entrusted with the reigns. Hated Halo 4, but I had hope they’d learn what they could do better, only to learn the people who made it hated the core mechanics to begin with. Halo 5 was just as bad to me, and alienated me from my once favorite game franchise. Then Halo Infinite took FOREVER to make, delayed a whole year when the XSX came out, so I hoped it was because they were pulling out all the stops this time and Halo was back again! Then the “Beta” came out a month before launch and Infinite felt great, felt like the Halo 3 days to me, and I was hooked. Then launch day came and it was the EXACT same game as the “Beta”. No new maps for a year, nada. I still play Halo Infinite because I love Halo, but it’s a far cry of what it used to be player base wise. They rotate the same 5 items in the shop, they don’t add anything to the game to entice players. I want to give Halo money. Why do you hate money?

Who is in charge at 343? And how is Xbox allowing this circus to continue. Supposedly we’re stuck with Infinite for a decade… Make Halo Great Again