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[–]skeetsauce 1403 points1404 points  (202 children)

I had a coworker who tell me how he wished he could meet a liberal one day so he could beat them up. In his mind, every single person he knew was a conservative, in California… just more insight on why they don’t understand how democrats win elections, they legit believe they outnumber Dems 10000000:1.

[–][deleted] 473 points474 points  (90 children)

There's a very common bias that I forget the name of. Essentially the idea is that if someone proposes an idea in a group setting, and nobody objects to that idea, the person is likely to believe that everyone else is in agreement. They don't understand that people might not openly disagree with them for the sake of avoiding conflict, which is typically the case. In general, people who are super loud about their CONTROVERSIAL politics are the people who like to start fights about politics. The best situation to these people is also the one that makes them think everyone agrees with them.

[–]A_Mouse_In_Da_House 245 points246 points  (32 children)

Qui tacet consentire videtur. He who is silent agrees. Parliamentary idea

[–]xendaddy 102 points103 points  (29 children)

So annoying when you're trying to make a group decision, and the objectors get pissed later even though they didn't day anything

[–]Syrdon 65 points66 points  (26 children)

That just means you need to acknowledge human nature, and the particular humans you are working with, and modify your process to one that does more to avoid confrontation or the perception thereof.

[–]legsintheair 9 points10 points  (8 children)

You really can’t keep relitigating decisions because someone in the minority didn’t bother to speak up when they had the opportunity then acts like an asshole after the fact because they didn’t get their way. Unless you are managing a lutheran church in the Midwest. And even then you really shouldn’t.

[–]MillaEnluring 19 points20 points  (7 children)

This is ridiculous. What if someone fears or knows they will be ostracized for speaking up? What if there is a literal threat? Your scenario applies to a perfect world where every person is both articulate, considerate and completely logical.

[–]Conquestadore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This can be part of a toxic work environment. I've had a very critical boss who would attack anyone expressing a disconsenting opinion. Nobody dared speak up while after every meeting the gossip was through the roof. Mentioning this during one of those meetings didn't go over well.

[–]Conquestadore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's fun to see Latin roots of expressions. We have a saying with this exact meaning in Dutch: wie zwijgt stemt toe. He who is silent consents.

[–]fchowd0311 103 points104 points  (15 children)

Happened to me multiple times at work and going on a Uber ride. Like half a decade ago I called an Uber to drive to class as my car broke down and the driver 5 seconds into the drive just makes these grand assumptions that I must be a Trump guy(my ethnicity is South Asian so it's a bold guess) and starts praising him about his immigration rhetoric. Part of me believed he waited for a minority looking immigrant guy(I was born in the US and served in the Marine Corps) to kinda freak them out on purpose which would be even more shitty than believing the guy just assumed I agreed with him.

[–]SniffinRoundYourDoor 71 points72 points  (8 children)

Literally happened to me last week. I flew into Georgia got an Uber and the guy starts going in on me about Teachers being kid fiddlers and such. I'm like, "You sound like a godly person." Dude responds "I AM!" I said, "What about all these churches basically being a buffet for Priests to prey on children." His response? "nNot every person is bad." He didn't even stop to think what he said. I said, "not every teacher is bad. Just like not every cop is bad. Did you learn anything today?"

He sat there for a moment then started on Joe Rogan and if I listened to him....

[–]SuperRette 74 points75 points  (2 children)

ACAB doesn't exist because every cop is literally irredeemable.

ACAB exists because the U.S policing institutions punish good cops who "tattle" on the bad. Because to stay on the force one must become a bad cop, by overlooking the crimes of your comrades.

I'm sure there are Klansmen who are alright folks. Who only continue to wear the hood because it's family tradition, who don't want to be ostracized from their families and communities.

Only, this too makes them bad people for continuing to support such an organization. You can be "bad" by association.

[–]oriaven 42 points43 points  (1 child)

And the Catholic Church is evil in their systematic downplaying and protecting the bad priests. It's not like school systems are looking the other way on child endangerment or molestation if they find out about it, generally. The church is a powerful global organization and has had many decades to do something. So fucking evil.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (2 children)

"So you got kicked off Facebook again? Is that why you're dribbling garbage out in the real world?"

One star. Ok drive, could do without the Fox News updates.

[–]SgtDoughnut 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And if you turn on joe rogan so help me i will demand a refund.

[–]skyehobbit 67 points68 points  (2 children)

That would be exactly why the guy chose you to start spouting crazy shit. My hubs had a trumper friend on FB, who specifically went on my hubs post about immigration for Africans - my bil is a Nigerian immigrant - to argue. (Then after my hubs gave him a thorough democratic lecture, he apologized in a PM and asked for a truce. Eye roll)

[–]fzr600dave 73 points74 points  (1 child)

A lot of right wingers love to argue till you prove them wrong then it's let's not talk about it, ive caught a few like that, they talk big with other right wingers who just love to talk crap but as soon as you prove all their points wrong it's stop that I'm losing and can't deal with it.

[–]SgtDoughnut 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Was at a family reunion and my uncle is a big trumper. Thing is I brought my laptop. So when he started spouting bullshit i just started fact checking him on the spot infront of the whole family. Shut him up real quick.

He turned bright red when i told him I could have just done this with my phone, and if he had a lick of sense he could have done it himself before he opened his mouth. He was so pissed because not only did i disprove like 90% of his statements, i showed the entire family he was willfully being ignorant about what he was saying because he refused to check the info himself.

[–]Appropriate-Idea5281 2 points3 points  (1 child)

They all have the same talking points. Once you hear it enough times it’s easier to counter. My favorite one is that 18 year olds have assault rifles in the military. I always say in the military they have excellent trainers. Outside the military they are trained by call of duty

[–]fchowd0311 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yup. As my previous comment said, I was in Marine infantry. Not only did we have substantial training, the weapon unless we were out in the field training or on deployment, was always locked up in a highly secure armory. They didn't trust us for shit walking around with a loaded weapon. Fuck, firearm regulations were far more strict on base than off base. Hell no they didn't trust 18-22 year old walking around with firearms in a public non training or non war setting.

[–]SmytheOrdo 50 points51 points  (6 children)

I've tried telling my MAGA dad a million times that others avoiding discussions doesn't mean he's right.. I've had relatives unfriend him on social media because he cannot resist the urge to argue with them about politics.

[–]oriaven 22 points23 points  (3 children)

So frustrating. We all have political opinions, but some people like to turn every conversation into a political one. That's so tiring and frankly uninteresting. I find politics interesting and it's important stuff. But if that's all you can talk about, you're probably just a boring person.

[–]SmytheOrdo 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I took him for a colonoscopy two weeks ago and the whole car ride he was complaining about liberals in some way. I just didn't respond most of the time because I've figured out arguing back gives FoxBrain types a dopamine hit.

[–]adanceparty 5 points6 points  (1 child)

my dad starts in on some shit every time I go over there. He got visibly offended when HE brought up covid and I said in passing I had an extra day off and was probably going to go get a booster shot lol. I was like why the fuck do you even care if I do it? If I never told you, you wouldn't even know. I don't understand we all got covid once even with my shots, and 2 weeks later my grandma died. Idk if it was because of covid entirely but it def didn't help. Why the hell would you get mad at me being cautious? It's even weirder because he was mad at the booster, he got the first 2 vaccines, but the booster! That's too far!

[–]Jellicle_Tyger 19 points20 points  (0 children)

If you do say something, on the other hand, other people who agree with you are more likely to speak up. That's easier said than done, of course, but you can "pop the bubble" sometimes.

[–]williamfbuckwheat 5 points6 points  (4 children)

There are so many people that think a politician is automatically popular or more popular than their opponent if they draw in large crowds even in the modern era. Lots of Trump supporters claimed that he had to have won by a landslide because he attracted large crowds while Biden had small gatherings at best. It didn't matter that Biden avoided crowds due to Covid. Also, there are plenty of examples of candidates who attracted large crowds in the past but received barely any votes like Ron Paul.

Trump was also filling arenas in many places where you would've seen some musician perform and sell out? Does that mean everyone loves that musician as well or instead that they were also good at selling at venues and towns where they knew their fans would buy tickets?

[–]MillaEnluring 1 point2 points  (2 children)

People were paid to fill his crowds.

[–]williamfbuckwheat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm sure at the beginning but he's attracted plenty of gullible people now who will turn over their entire savings for the chance to be close to their messiah like any good cult leader would.

[–]bserum 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Are you thinking of pluralistic ignorance?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They think we agree with them. We really see them as rabid animals likely to tear our faces off if we disagree openly. Like sorry, we're treating ya like a screaming meth addict in an elevator. No sudden moves... get out alive.

[–]DifficultPrimary 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Went to a party meeting with my parents a decent while ago, before things got distinctly... impolite. Local branch, all the quiet things still said quietly.

Afterwards I broke down all of the ways this had happened to my parents. They spoke a lot about "our shared values", so I asked my parents what the values were. Then I explained it was never said, so that the racist old guy at our table could think "ah yes, our shared values. they all agree with me", and the fiscally conservative but socially progressive young mom at another table could think "yes, we care about our neighbors, but want to reel in spending, we all agree with that".

Literally at no time did they ever specify anything anyone believed in. They phrased it so everyone could believe that whatever they thought was correct, was.

[–]TZHeroX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Isn't that dangerous to the notion of freedom of speech? I don't mean the aggressive kinda people, but the generally fair ones. Political debate when done right is always healthy, having people hiding their political views so they don't get "canceled" or viewed as a immoral person makes me believe something is fundamentally wrong.

[–]mrmalort69 77 points78 points  (9 children)

I live in Illinois, every small town you pass through, especially around the election, was plastered in trump signs. Having conversations with people they think it’s fake as “I don’t know anyone who voted for Biden”; meanwhile, on my everyday run, in Chicago, I jog past more votes for Biden than 10 small towns combined

[–]notfromchicago 18 points19 points  (2 children)

I live downstate in a tiny town (<5,000 people). The number of Bailey and Fuck Pritzker signs down here is concerning. I hope y'all got us.

[–]mrmalort69 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Illinois republicans will never forgive democrats for what they did. Lowering taxes on the working class while getting IL out of financial crisis have all been talking points of the IL GOP for the last 30 years.

[–]SuperSocrates 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bailey won’t even get half the votes Pritzker does I bet

[–]BallerGuitarer 3 points4 points  (3 children)

To be fair, the inverse happens in Chicago. Few in Chicago knows anyone who voted for Trump.

[–]mrmalort69 18 points19 points  (2 children)

You’re missing the point. I have enough awareness outside my neighborhood to understand that even though I don’t personally know many trumpers, I still accept that roughly 40% of Illinois voters cast one for him.

[–]BallerGuitarer 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Ah, gotcha. Do those people in small town Illinois think if they go to Chicago that a large proportion of them will also be Trump fans?

[–]mrmalort69 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I think they don’t understand that there still are people in both communities who vote for both parties. I also think they can’t grasp the raw numbers of 10,000 people in a town vs 3,000,000 in a city being the equivalent of 300 greater

[–]hardolaf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One building on the street that I lived on next to the lake here in Chicago has more voters living in it than most small towns in Illinois.

[–]Ofbearsandmen 67 points68 points  (2 children)

What kills me is when conservatives mention "blue-haired liberals". Like they really think that most liberals have blue hair. They have no idea that most "liberals" are ordinary people with 2 kids and an office job.

[–]lilbluehair 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I made this username almost 15 years ago, during the only 6 months of my life that I had blue hair.

I don't get much respect from those on the right wing, no matter what I actually say.

[–]nightslayer78 62 points63 points  (9 children)

Looking back I had a lot of ovaries to reply when I worked at a store selling guns in California to a guy basically yelling about liberals and them being anti-gun liberals that I was a pro-gun rights liberal (my politics have changed since then). He yelled and pointed me out to everyone that "look this guy is a liberal!" I corrected him like three times that I was a pro-gun rights liberal. Until I gave up.

[–]StabbyPants 45 points46 points  (1 child)

it's a gun shop, don't you have wide latitude to refuse sales? due is being shouty and combative, "go away until you can calm down"

[–]avocadoclock 43 points44 points  (0 children)

I refused to sell alcohol to a guy that called me an idiot. He shut up real quick and left. There's no reason to take that kind of treatment

[–]skeetsauce 41 points42 points  (3 children)

[–]DriftingMemes 15 points16 points  (0 children)

ignorant and with just enough intelligence to know it, and on top of that, a MASSIVE inferiority complex. They are desperate to be better than anyone else.

[–]mindbleach 14 points15 points  (0 children)

It's a cult.

Do y'all think we're joking when we say that?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

god damn, that is like a 9 year old's first time on the internet except its an actual adult in reali life. honestly what the fuck, that guy is seriously pathetic

[–]Orvan-Rabbit 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Some people cannot imagine other people not fitting into a stereotype.

[–]Randomfactoid42 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Especially when they believe there's only two sterotypes. In this case everybody is either a gun loving conservative or a gun grabbing liberal. To them, there aren't any more choices.

[–]sheworksforfudge 54 points55 points  (6 children)

I worked remotely during the 2020 election and a coworker who was based in a small town in Texas said something like, “Of course Biden is cheating, I don’t know one person voting for him.” Like, lady, you live in deep Trump country but there’s a whole rest of the country out there.

[–]GenericRedditor0405 30 points31 points  (2 children)

There are pockets of voters in my state where people were convinced that Trump was going to win 2020 easily because everyone they knew was voting Trump and there were Trump lawn signs everywhere. They were shocked, like genuinely surprised, that MASSACHUSETTS went blue in the 2020 election. They completely lack perspective

[–]SectorEducational460 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I remember in 2020 so many Republicans were making calls that trump would win California in a historical landslide. Some people just live in complete denial of reality.

[–]Bawstahn123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ugh, the fucking Trump-towns in the hill-country around Worcester, right?

They completely lack perspective

Sounds like townies to me

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

That's not real America though

[–]BeerTacosAndKnitting 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well, and the people who voted for Biden aren’t telling her they did, because they know how she’d react.

[–]sheworksforfudge 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most of our department was loudly liberal, so I was kind of surprised she even thought that way. We were remote, but all talked on a group chat regularly and it was clear she was the only Trumper in the department. Yet she still thought nobody was voting for Biden because her small Texas town wasn’t. These people don’t deal on reality.

[–]bravejango 20 points21 points  (0 children)

My friends grand mother was that way. I was in the room when him and his wife were on a video call with her. She started screaming about democrats are ruining the country and needed to be killed. My friends wife had enough and said “Nana, you do realize we are democrats.” She lost her mind over that. Because I was there she said but “OP owns an AR-15 and multiple other guns. Why would a god fearing Christian republicans be friends with democrats.” I then informed her I was a gun loving, socialist, atheist liberal.

Her world view shattered and she removed my friend from her will.

[–]DanishWonder 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I have an employee who hints at his Conservative views during our 1 on 1 calls. I being his manager never talk politics, but he just kind of drops dog whistles and I ignore them.

[–]ntermation 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I worked with a guy for about a decade, and in the last 2 years we worked together, he became more right of center. Like, when we first met he was a member of the union, and generally supportive of immigration, given he was an immigrant himself. We had a lot in common our kids were born within months of each other and went to the same day care. Then he discovered his child was autistic, a year or two after that he starts talking about vaccines, and mercury. Few months later, it's stoicism, which slid into men's rights, then the problem with feminism, and how awful unions are for business, how gay people shouldn't call it marriage, it can be a civil union, but marriage is for a man and woman. One day he started on the 5G/covid conspiracy and I laughed, thinking it was a joke, and he went to the manager saying that I am creating a hostile work environment. He blocked me from all social media, and started posting negative commentaries of things that could potentially have been about me - a woman we worked with started showing me and asking what I had said to him that day etc...eventually they brought in a mediator, I met with her once, gave my side of the story. Essentially lamenting his journey of change from a thoughtful, accepting, kind person I worked well with (our kids would attend each other's birthdays and we would eat lunch or go to dinner sometimes) and how I barely recognised him anymore. I didn't hear back from her though, because while all this was blowing up, our workplace did a call for voluntary redundancies, to be followed by layoffs if not enough were found. My manager strongly urged him to take a voluntary one.

[–]1_________________11 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I a liberal/progressive have a very conservative boss but we talk politics alot. But sometimes I have to hold my tongue but I express my outrage at the system and others and try not to put the blame on him or anything. It's not bad we disagree on alot but it's nice when we have common ground. I think he respects my view point even if he doesn't always agree.

[–]StabbyPants 7 points8 points  (7 children)

which part of CA? central valley is way different from SF

[–]skeetsauce 20 points21 points  (6 children)

Central Valley, but my town still votes blue pretty regularly.

[–]takatori 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The right-wing media demonizes "liberals" as evil commies.

He doesn't know anyone he thinks is an evil commie.

Therefore he believes he has never met a liberal.

Meanwhile, half his friends quietly vote Democrat.

[–]OutlierJoe 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Which fuels their Big Lie conspiracy.

[–]intellifone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I try to bait my conservative coworker who says borderline inappropriate thing into crossing the line

[–]mdawn37 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If all of my family truly knew EVERYTHING I believe in and exactly how I really feel about Trump (and conservatives in general), I would probably never have a relationship with my parents or brother again. Me and my husband miraculously have the same beliefs and are completely anti-Trump. What makes it even more of a big deal is the fact that we live in West Virginia which is easily one of the top conservative states in America who worship Trump like he’s a god with a Cheeto face and who drinks Diet Coke instead of water.

[–]Gizogin 543 points544 points  (35 children)

The core, the deep heart of conservatism and conspiratorial thinking, is an ego defense. We all engage in certain behaviors that, if examined critically, are probably harmful. We aren’t always careful about buying things from companies that don’t have a history of labor abuse, we eat meat that comes from a harmful and wasteful industry, and we probably drive when we could walk or bike. It kinda sucks to have those things pointed out; we don’t like to feel guilty about our actions.

This extends even to things that aren’t actually criticisms. It’s why vegans get so much hate; even if they’re only saying “this is a choice I’ve made”, it feels like they’re condemning everyone else for not making that same choice. The same goes for people who don’t drink, or people who bike to work everyday, or any number of things.

What’s important to understand is that these things feel like attacks because they call into question our own choices. Maybe you’ve never seriously thought about what eating meat entails, but if someone else has thought about it - and come out of that process deciding to act differently than you do - does that mean your choice is actually… wrong? Are you a bad person for eating meat? And even if you give it some thought and come out deciding that you can defend your choice not to be vegetarian or vegan, that process can be exhausting and painful.

So that’s one part of it; introspection is hard, and we don’t want to do it. To a certain extent, maybe we can’t do it, at least not for everything, or we’d never get anything done at all. But that isn’t the whole story. There’s a moral element that might be even greater.

There is a pervasive belief in the US (though it certainly isn’t exclusive to the US; at minimum, anywhere with a long tradition of Christianity has it as well) that any act can be forgiven if done in innocence. That is, you can do something bad and still be a “Good Person” as long as you didn’t know it was wrong. I’m not here to debate the merits of this belief, but it is necessary to understand just how influential this belief is. It feeds into the above; if you never give any thought to your purchases or to your dietary habits, then it doesn’t matter how abusive those industries are. You didn’t know, so it isn’t your fault.

This then creates an incentive to avoid learning about the things you participate in. In a very real sense, learning too much can rob you of your innocence. If someone tells you that you are participating in - or benefiting from - an unjust system, they are trying to make you into a Bad Person.

Enter the conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories aim to simplify the world. All evil is the result of deliberate action by others, whether they are a single group with a written agenda or even a single person pulling the strings. There are no systemic problems, no nuances, no people who are just trying to get by with imperfect information. Most importantly, the bad things that happen, even the bad things that you might have some small part in, aren’t your fault; they were forced upon you by the real evil. You are a Good Person, beset on all sides by evil.

Conspiracy theories serve to give an easy way to discredit anyone who would try to make you question your decisions, and at the same time, they give you an airtight defense against introspection. It’s no wonder they appeal to so many.

E: Since this has been getting some attention, I might as well share some excellent essays that cover this topic in more detail.

First, “In Search of a Flat Earth” by Folding Ideas. It’s specific to the flat earth conspiracy theory, but it touches on why it’s so hard to get people out of conspiracy theories in general - the people who believe in them want to believe.

Second, “Why Are You so Angry?” by Innuendo Studios. This one is lengthy, but it’s broken up into sections, and each part is worth a watch on its own. It’s focused on GamerGate and how it became the blueprint and recruitment pool for the alt-right, and it’s the best breakdown I’ve seen of conspiracy theories as a defense mechanism.

Third, Neoreaction a Basilisk by Jack Graham and Elizabeth Sandifer. A warning: this is not an easy read. It’s an essay collection about the alt-right, and it touches on some truly fascinating concepts. Even if you’ve heard of Roko’s Basilisk - the thought experiment that gives this book its title - you probably don’t know much about its context or how the person arguably most responsible for popularizing it is deep in the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. Give this one a look, and give me a shout when you get to the part about “the right to be invaded”; I need to talk about this with someone else, but my friends keep putting me on mute.

[–]TijuanaPoker 62 points63 points  (2 children)

This may be one of the best comments I've ever read on Reddit. Well stated.

[–]jtooker 29 points30 points  (0 children)

The bestof is always in the comments

[–]Bearwhale 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The rare bestof post, inside another bestof post. Bestception!!

[–]Tangocan 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Damn. Very well put. Its very easy to put yourself in those shoes when thinking of it like that.

Not that it absolves them of responsibility any.

[–]Ofbearsandmen 23 points24 points  (5 children)

Very well put. I think this is correlated with their fear of change. If it's OK to be gay, then all their efforts and suffering to remain straight were in vain. If it's OK to be an atheist, then why do they torture themselves with religion all day? If others with other identities are not less than, then how can they justify society treating them badly?

[–]Blenderhead36 20 points21 points  (0 children)

My supertheory of supereverything on this is that no one likes to be wrong, but that people react in one of two fundamentally different ways to being wrong:

  1. "I should be wrong for as little time as possible." When someone with this mindset is proven wrong, they will take the time they need to process their wrongness, and then change their thinking. If they know something is wrong, then they should stop acting and thinking that way.

  2. "I can never admit wrongness." When someone with this mentality is proven wrong, they refuse to believe it. They will look for loopholes or fallacies within the refutation. If that fails, they will try to discredit the refutation or the person who provided it.

Most people will default to one and dabble in the other. Humans are complex creatures. Both are helpful in the right context! 1. breaks echo chambers and prevent groupthink. 2. keeps them from being gullible rubes. But in the wrong context, 1. makes suckers and 2. makes zealots.

[–]Mickeystix 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Great summation that mirrors my thoughts.

People make a decision not to learn things that call their beliefs or behaviors into question.

People do not like to admit fault, or admit that they had wool pulled over their eyes.

People always want an "in your face" answer to what happens in the world, but the world is complex, so these often turn into conspiracy.

This all rings true from, as you said, veganism and people's behaviors regarding it, to religion, to politics.

I truly believe if people were more open to being vulnerable and learning, many of today's social issues would be lessened.

[–]SaltyBabe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If you knew, you’d have to be responsible.

Since the dawn of humans we have relied on “invisible actors” and it served us in ancient times, but it’s time to move past that, take control of our own destiny as a species.

[–]kibbles0515 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You are spot on with the Christian ignorance points.
I would add, the idea that nearly any sin can be forgiven as long as you confess also means that, even if/when you do participate in an evil act or system, as long as you confess that you did, you are once again “good.” So not only is evil simply being done adjacent to you or forced on you, but your willingness to participate will just be forgiven later, so you are still morally clean.

[–]wing3d 539 points540 points  (66 children)

Facist language all sounds the same. Remember when things were good? Well all the people you hate are making things bad... yada yada let's kill the jews.

[–]GameofPorcelainThron 194 points195 points  (46 children)

Yep. At it's core, it's about an in-group vs out-group. This started at the very beginning in the US. There's always been an out-group. Slaves. Immigrants. Native peoples. Always an enemy to rally against, always someone to feel superior over. Then in WW2, it was Communists (and still POC as well). The propaganda really became much more direct. It's us vs them. The righteous vs the godless heathens. You're with us or against us.

Now that mentality has evolved over the last 70 years. The right are the only ones standing between Real America (tm) and the destruction of the American way. By transitive property, anyone who opposes the right is not a real American. So how could real Americans vote for anyone but Trump?? The election must have been stolen. We must fix the system so that these enemies of the state cannot win at all costs. Whatever rights we lose in the process pales in comparison to what would have happened if the Others had won!

[–]thatguytony 78 points79 points  (22 children)

Wernt most of the first settlers puritans? They were basically kicked out of England because the English thought they were crack pot ass holes anyways.

[–]GameofPorcelainThron 34 points35 points  (9 children)

Haha exactly. It's basically built into the DNA of the country at this point, I feel like.

[–]Cyb3rSab3r 58 points59 points  (0 children)

Always good to remember that Bacon's Rebellion disturbed the ruling class immensely.

European indentured servants rose up and worked with African slaves to overthrow the government. This resulted in the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705 furthering the divide of people along racial lines.

Fred Hampton was an incredibly well-spoken leader in the Chicago branch of the Black Panthers in the 1960s who spread a message of unity among the working class, regardless of race.

"nothing is more important than stopping fascism, because fascism will stop us all.” - Fred Hampton

He was drugged, shot, and killed by local police forces working with the FBI in accordance to the now known COINTELPRO projects carried out by the FBI from the 50s to the 70s.

[–]Abaral 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Only in New England. Virginia was going before that, and it was people looking for economic opportunities, not a haven for imposing their fringe religious ideology on neighbors.

[–]vitalvisionary 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I tell people that ask me about American culture that the country is founded on money and religion before everything else and it hasn't changed too much since Jamestown and Plymouth.

[–]SuperRette 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We often like to gloss over that these "economic opportunities" were built on other people's bones. As they always are.

[–]ThisAltDoesNotExist 4 points5 points  (5 children)

The Puritans weren't kicked out. They chose to leave because Puritans lost power and the country rejected their ways.

[–]Anonymous7056 15 points16 points  (0 children)

"You don't have to leave, but nobody likes you or wants you here."

"You can't kick me out, I choose to leave!!"

"That's... ok, great."

[–]Bawstahn123 1 point2 points  (3 children)

The Puritans weren't kicked out.

.....They were literally being imprisoned, tortured and executed in England, dude.

From wikipedia:

"The Seditious Sectaries Act of 1593 was specifically aimed at outlawing the Brownists. Under this policy, the London Underground Church from 1566, and then Robert Browne and his followers in Norfolk during the 1580s, were repeatedly imprisoned. Henry Barrow, John Greenwood, and John Penry were executed for sedition in 1593. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony)#History#History)

It was also "official government policy" to "drive people out of the country" who refused to attend Anglican services

"Archbishop Hutton died in 1606 and Tobias Matthew was appointed as his replacement. He was one of James's chief supporters at the 1604 conference,[8] and he promptly began a campaign to purge the archdiocese of non-conforming influences, including Puritans, Separatists, and those wishing to return to the Catholic faith. Disobedient clergy were replaced, and prominent Separatists were confronted, fined, and imprisoned. He is credited with driving people out of the country who refused to attend Anglican services."

I swear, so many people don't understand the context of 1600s Europe, and they use their shit takes to try and explain things they don't really understand

[–]Kulladar 9 points10 points  (2 children)

The weeks after 9/11 are the perfect example of this to me.

I've seen a few threads about the attacks the last few days and every one is full of comments where people say how amazing the weeks after the attack were because the US was so unified.

Except it wasn't. Ask a Muslim how unified those times were. Hell, ask anyone who looks vaguely middle eastern. We were just "unified" in hate.

[–]MonaganX 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The thing to stress is that when fascists evoke the past, it's typically a fictionalized version of it that never was. Where traditionalist conservatives actually seek a return to past "greatness", fascists simply rewrite the past to match their ideal vision of society and claim that they're trying to restore it to that state, even when their plans have zero basis in actual history.

[–]Kraelman 324 points325 points  (23 children)

They just don't want to be told they are wrong and think being told that they are wrong (about gay people, about abortion, about CRT, about climate change, about evolution, about anything) is tantamount to brainwashing, because they believe, in earnest, that their opinions are always right (and thus, facts that disagree must be wrong).

It's like arguing with a five year old over who won a poker hand, when their hand consists of UNO cards.

[–]key_lime_pie 130 points131 points  (17 children)

I work with a run-of-the-mill conspiracy theorist, and you're right, there's just no point in arguing because there's always another bullshit thread to pick up and run with.

This guy believes that we should ban fossil fuels. I mean, that's great for the environment, right? Sure, but that's not why he wants to ban then. He wants to ban them because he believes that the only reason that the Earth remains warm is because it is burning fossil fuels to do so, and that by using fossil fuels, we are taking away the Earth's fuel source and it will soon grow cold and lifeless.

He espoused this belief at lunch one day, and nine or ten of us took spent the rest of lunch trying to explain to him how ridiculous this was, but it didn't make even the tiniest dent. Someone would ask "Fossil fuels combine with oxygen when they burn, so where is the center of the Earth getting this oxygen?" and he would respond with "You don't know that the Earth needs oxygen! It could be a completely different process that we don't know about yet. And if not, well, you've never been to the center of the Earth, so how do you know there isn't any oxygen there?"

This is also a guy who asked for a two-week vacation, and when his manager asked where he was going, his response was "Nowhere, I just need the time to work with my magnets." The guy was trying to build a perpetual motion machine out of magnets because "Magnets have an invisible power that we can harness, but I don't want to say any more until I'm ready to publish because I know what happens when Big Energy finds someone on the cusp of breaking their grip on us!"

[–]Gorstag 40 points41 points  (1 child)

I've got a buddy that is similar to what you described. And I am fine with people believing and pursuing bonkers stuff like this. It makes life interesting. However, there is a line that can't be crossed which is your bonkers ideals being utilized to cause harm to others. And that is really where the Conservatives largely sit. They espouse bonkers conspiracy theories as fact, get angry & violent and harm others.

[–]Macktologist 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Right? It would be like Bigfoot hunters wanting to shoot and kill those that doubt Bigfoot is real. Go ahead and chase Bigfoot around. It makes for some decent TV at the right times, but realize you’re chasing something that has yet to be proven with all this technology and imagery in the world today and you just might be on a wild good chase. Just laugh at it with the rest of us and go in believing. Don’t let it identify you.

[–]StabbyPants 29 points30 points  (2 children)

was he, perchance, a Juggalo?

[–]Sat-AM 24 points25 points  (1 child)

While I get your joke, it's worth saying that most Juggalos are this really odd position of sharing a lot of anti-science and religious beliefs with the far right, but are also generally more inclined to want to punch someone on the far right than vote for them.

[–]IICVX 19 points20 points  (2 children)

The guy was trying to build a perpetual motion machine out of magnets because "Magnets have an invisible power that we can harness...

This is actually true, and it's possible to build a device that seemingly spins in perpetuity with cleverly arranged permanent magnets.

Turns out that the magnetic field strength of a permanent magnet is a source of potential energy, and by slowly demagnetizing them you can generate power... Until they run out of magnet juice and become inert.

[–]Jerithil 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Yeah almost all of the perpetual motion machines just are just bad forms of other power generation. I have seen a couple which are just poorly made Stirling engines.

[–]jarfil 3 points4 points  (0 children)

CENSORED

[–]RedbloodJarvey 54 points55 points  (1 child)

In the book How Fascism Works the author proposes that the conspiracy theory's aren't supposed to be taken literally. It's more about spreading the message that nothing can be trusted.

This is also illustrated by the “birtherism” conspiracy theory that President Barack Obama was born in Kenya, promoted by Trump from 2012 onward. Plainly and demonstrably false, the point of the theory was simply to malign Obama and castigate the media, not to promote accurate information or understanding.

-- https://www.supersummary.com/how-fascism-works/chapters-4-7/

[–]Macktologist 19 points20 points  (0 children)

That’s the true goal of propaganda as well, and I learned this during the Trump presidency.

[–]nankerjphelge 108 points109 points  (19 children)

It's incredibly frustrating. I have a dear friend since childhood. He's like a brother to me. And while he hasn't fallen in with the worst of the far right rhetoric like the homophobia/xenophobia/racism, he has been taken in with enough of it to parrot nonsense about the dangers of CRT, or that anthropogenic climate change is false or that Joe Biden is acting like a communist.

And this is a well educated, successful family man who has critical thinking skills, yet they seem to have completely abandoned him in favor of the propaganda he gets regularly fed from the right wing media he consumes regularly. And I have no idea how to talk to him anymore about any of it, because it's like we're living in two completely different realities with two different sets of facts.

And I'm not sure how this ever gets resolved, but it is definitely a national crisis, and I fear will lead to worse things before there's a chance of it getting better.

[–]hallflukai 44 points45 points  (3 children)

It's no academic work, but I think The Brainwashing of My Dad can be somewhat instructive.

The thing about the dramatic political fires that are burning in the hearts of people like your friend is that they require constant fuel. The effect that your friend can actually have on the political things they care about is minuscule. It doesn't actually make rational sense for people like them to remain so, so, so angry about CRT, or Joe Biden, or anything else as often as they do.

The unfortunate thing is that I think people like your friend can be "deprogrammed", but it can't happen while they're neck-deep in propaganda. That's basically what happened in the documentary I linked above (sorry for the spoiler). The grandfather's wife unsubscribed him from right-wing email lists, he couldn't figure out how to resubscribe to them, and stopped caring so much.

I experienced something in the same ballpark recently. I uninstalled Twitter from my phone, installed a news feed blocker on my desktop, and found that while my fundamental politics didn't change, the amount of mental energy I was devoting to them cratered. I had room, mentally, to read more books, watch more movies, listen to more new music, etc.

[–]Ofbearsandmen 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I think this is like the opiates crisis, it's an addiction crisis. These people became addicted to outrage. Many people with seemingly good lives are in fact bored to death and only anger makes them feel alive. They need their daily dose of Fox News and conspiracies to be mad at something. Idk how to solve it. But I think treating it as an addiction can be one way to "theorize" things for their loved ones.

[–]darukhnarn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Anthropogenic climate change is the greatest danger to our lives and denial is incredibly harmful.

[–]Ofbearsandmen 100 points101 points  (1 child)

they believe, in earnest, that their opinions are always right (and thus, facts that disagree must be wrong).

I had an interesting realization with a boomer relative of mine (not a conservative). I was telling her that she was wrong on something (she was factually wrong on a subject she didn't know well), but she didn't want to admit it and we started arguing. At some point, not being able to convince me she was right, she told me how she never would have dared disrespecting her elders like that. It went on and I understood that for her and the people who were raised with her, people were right when they were "above" you. It didn't matter if they were factually wrong, as long as they were older, they were right, and all you had to do was shut up.

There's a strong sense of social hierarchy in many older people, and it's exacerbated among conservative boomers. For them, facts don't matter, they're right because they're above you.

[–]hallflukai 49 points50 points  (0 children)

A couple Thanksgivings ago me and my grandpa started discussing the infrastructure of the internet. He made a number of points that were just blatantly incorrect, and I tried to explain why he was wrong. Important to note I was in my final year of getting my Bachelor's in Computer Science at the time.

He literally would not budge an inch. Not one inch, not one point. It ended with my step-dad rather loudly telling my grandpa that either he (my grandpa) was wrong, or that I was a liar, and that he should either admit that he's wrong, or call me a liar to my face.

This year that same grandpa and my mom got into an argument about something that's none of your business, but in the course of it my mom was telling my grandpa about things my biological dad did, and my grandpa said: "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen."

[–]RedbloodJarvey 98 points99 points  (2 children)

Literally living in fear.

It's the mind set that won't wear a mask for covid because they don't want to "live in fear", but also won't go to Walmart without tucking a gun in their pants.

I have a college friend who lives in a small town of a red state. She was showing her garden to some people and got two comments that stood out.

One person asked if she had a gun to defend her garden. My friend: "If someone is so hungry they come digging through my garden, I'm not going to shoot them." The neighbor seemed to think there would be hordes of zombie like democrats wandering across the land, but instead of "brains" they would be looking for vegetables.

Another person noticing that the carrots in the middle of the garden weren't growing and told my friend it was because the government had sabotaged the seeds because "they" want to make gardens illegal. (The real reason was that part of garden wasn't getting enough water.).

Think of that mindset as you watch the Jan 6 investigation and think "Surely THIS will be enough to change peoples minds."

[–]Bang_Stick 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Think of that mindset as you watch the Jan 6 investigation and think "Surely THIS will be enough to change peoples minds."

I'm lately coming to this rather disturbing realization.

We are in very big trouble as a society.

[–]FANGO 66 points67 points  (9 children)

Their fear of their kids being brainwashed is literally just fear of their kids being educated at all. I mean, there's no real polite way to put this one

A majority of republicans think that the existence of higher education has a negative effect on the country as a whole

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/08/19/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education-2/

[–]tickettoride98 28 points29 points  (3 children)

A majority of republicans think that the existence of higher education has a negative effect on the country as a whole

Note that Republicans were 54/37 positive on higher education in 2015, then suddenly in 2017 they're 58/36 negative. So the 2016 election was an inversion point for Republicans. The same election where their nominee said he "love[s] the uneducated".

[–]CJDownUnder 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think it was "I love the poorly educated", which just adds a piquancy of pure Trumpist inanity to it.

[–]tickettoride98 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't know how anyone interprets it as anything but an insult with that wording.

If a sports coach says they love untrained athletes, it's easy to see that as a positive statement saying they like raw talent that they can mold and improve. If a coach says they love poorly trained athletes, that just sounds demeaning to the athlete.

[–]hiredgoon 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I wonder where a US brain drain would rematerialize.

[–]FANGO 20 points21 points  (1 child)

I've got EU citizenship so that's my target. Also there will be a lot of internal brain drain of people moving from shitty states to good states. Which is part of their electoral strategy

[–]hiredgoon 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Also there will be a lot of internal brain drain of people moving from shitty states to good states.

That's been happening for generations.

[–]neildegrasstokem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would guess a split between Canada and some countries in Europe. New Zealand would win a lot of the higher tech folks who have a safety net of money. Before the Russian war, I would have bet Scandinavia but I think that's looking a little spooky right now to some.

[–]mindbleach 27 points28 points  (13 children)

they believe, in earnest, that their opinions are always right (and thus, facts that disagree must be wrong).

I desperately need everyone to understand:

Conservatives do not believe things.

Conservatives believe people.

Everything is ingroup loyalty. Everything. I worry that what you heard was "a lot of things." What I am telling you is, everything is ingroup loyalty, for people in this mindset. Reality itself is a team sport.

There are no facts in this worldview. People are right or wrong. Only people are right or wrong. Claims cannot be evaluated - merely accepted or rejected based on who says. These people can't be wrong people, because why would anyone want to be wrong? So they must be right people, and whatever they say is right, because they say it. Anyone disagreeing with them is either a mistaken idiot who must be cowed into submission, or a malicious wrong person spreading who is wrong about absolutely everything literally all the time. A wrong person accurately quoting a right person is still wrong.

The only people who could call them on it are right-er people, higher up The Hierarchy. Those higher people have authority. Authority is not a recognition of demonstrable correctness. Correctness cannot be demonstrated. People's claims cannot be judged. Only people, themselves, can be judged. So if someone is an authority, for whatever reason, they get to decide what is true.

Judges don't find facts and evaluate claims because there's no such thing. Courtrooms do not seek justice. Judges decide what justice is. This is what Tucker Carlson said out loud when he scoffed, 'you wouldn't call it justice if this murderer caught on video went free,' and most people totally missed it. They were too busy asking obvious questions with equally obvious answers.

'Oh well how can they X when previously they Y?' They're not reasonable. 'Oh well everybody's reasonable, don't be prejudiced.' Judging visible action is regular judice, and their visible actions are unreasonable. 'Oh well surely they must have some private beliefs that make it make sense.' Keep fucking that chicken. Lemme know if it ever predicts their future actions. I'll be over here betting on 'they'll maintain loyalty and make shit up to justify it,' since that's what they did the last seven hundred thousand times.

[–]jumpy_monkey 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I had a person admit to me, after much prodding and cornering by their own logic, that "If the New York Times told me the sky was blue I wouldn't believe it and I would argue against it, in spite of my own observed reality".

Where we proceed from there it is the internalization that the acceptance of facts doesn't matter to conservatives whatsoever, and reasoning with them on the basis of facts and truth is a fool's errand.

[–]mindbleach 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And they think we're doing the same thing.

They think what they're doing is all there is. Of course we must be doing it too.

In exactly the same way that we will bend over backwards in search of what they must really believe, since some of us apparently cannot imagine any behavior besides rational argument - these people are utterly baffled by our shifting conclusions, because they cannot imagine any behavior besides maintaining commitment. If you praised a company yesterday and criticize them today, that's what they think hypocrisy is. They're not trolling when they scoff 'wtf I love [thing] now.' They're showing you how they think.

[–]Negative_Mancey 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Republicans think there is some sinister conspiracy to destroy American life, then turn around and say "I don't give a fuck what happens to other Americans".

[–]Divided_Eye 18 points19 points  (5 children)

Is this really only applicable to far-right in the US? Seems pretty standard.

[–]BPsPRguy 61 points62 points  (1 child)

It's probably applicable everywhere, but these fascists are currently a very active problem in the US that will absolutely effect both the US and other countries too. Already has.

[–]Divided_Eye 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It is applicable everywhere; I framed it as a question but it was more of a comment.

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (1 child)

Maybe to some degree. But as OP points out, at various times throughout history it reaches an extreme. The right in the US seems to be experiencing that extreme right now. Bear in mind, the leading candidate for the Republican nomination is someone who tried to overturn the results of a democratic election. A bunch of his supporters physically intervened to try to prevent a democratic transfer of power. They are actually rooting for authoritarianism.

[–]DoomGoober 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Bear in mind, the leading candidate for the Republican nomination is someone who tried to overturn the results of a democratic election.

Huge swathes of the Republican Party publicly state this lie, not just the leading candidate.

Another leading candidate in the Republican Party wants to empower state based militias so they can have an army with no federal control.

There is an entire of group of people authoring this authoritarianism and they have international allies (Hungary and Prime Minister Orban, for example.)

I'm it's not just one man or one party or even just an American problem. It's a fucking international movement.

[–]rathat 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I’d really like to know if my own political anxiety and fear is all based on propaganda and are not actual problems. It would be nice to relax.

[–]deux3xmachina 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hard to be certain as a pseudonymous third party, but it's absolutely at least part propaganda, it's everywhere.

[–]Toolazytolink 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Its all pretty simple really, a bunch of rich people and corporations don't want to pay taxes. So they did study after study and founded Fox news and funded conservative radio to brainwash people into being angry and vote republican. Republican politicians are bought and paid for by said rich entities and they roll back every progressive agenda.

Here is the scary part there are other Rich people who are backing the right who doesn't only want to not pay taxes they also want a monarchy, billionaires at the top everyone else as serfs, they want to do what they want or to whom they want without repercussions, see Peter Thiel

[–]colterpierce 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Visit /r/conspiracy sometime. Used to be kinda fun. Aliens, JFK, Bigfoot etc. Now it’s all antivax, pro Trump BS

[–]HenryHiggensBand 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What’s odd to me is that the generalization of “conspiracy” (typically a derogatory term in common usage) is alright for them to have applied to their political beliefs, at least enough for them to engage in the subreddit.

Surely most grounded folks would be actually aversive to their beliefs being thought of as “conspiracy,” right?

Like, “No, my truth-based beliefs aren’t conspiracy! They’re real and absolutely based on obvious fact!”

As opposed to, “Sure, I believe in conspiracies, it’s the entire basis of my personal and political ideas.”

Really?

[–]takatori 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Conspiracy" means a group of people secretly colluding and cooperating to accomplish some goal.

People who believe they have uncovered a "conspiracy" are perfectly happy to have their belief in that conspiracy called a conspiracy, because they're proud of having "found the truth."

[–]Bang_Stick 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I've heard at least 1 AI researcher provide a theory that tracks in my mind during the 2021 BBC Reith lectures. (Well worth the listen BTW <Link>)

Social Media algorithms are enabling this problem.

Not that they are directly responsible for this current shit show.

Instead they have been weaponized by authoritarian figures who have always existed and used against malleable people who also always existed.

Kind of like having a weak immune systems and an opportunistic infection happens.

Either way, I think society has to start taking this risk seriously. Considering how difficult it was/still is to get the message of global warming through, I do not have high hopes we can overcome this.

[–]_game_over_man_ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I got to hear my father in law to proclaim last weekend how he wish he wouldn’t have gotten vaccinated for COVID. He hasn’t had any problems that have come about due to being vaccinated. He even made a joke at Christmas that he got everyone COVID vaccines (only him, my wife and myself are vaccinated in their family). I honestly don’t understand where he came with that nonsense other than he feels like an outsider in his social world and consumption of Fox News is making him feel some kind of way about it.

It was fucking weird…

[–]Evergreen_76 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They dont believe anything they say for real. It just a tactic to dominate the opposition and shut down debate. Fascist are trolls. Truth is unimportant they only want to win and gain power. The views they have are indefensible so they created a culture where they don’t need to defend them.

[–]Obsidian743 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yall should check out /r/ConspiracistIdeation