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Saturday, December 31, 2005

FAR-RIGHTEOUS EXCUSENIK SUPPORTS TORTURE

Check the title link DLA's, the 'backlash' has started. Like most US 'conservatives' Michelle Malkin does not allow comment on her drivel; she does however solicit "TIPS", so i wrote her an email instead.

Subject: TIP from Britain
From: edjog
Date: 2005/12/30 23:13 GMT
To: malkin@comcast.net

Message body:

There is no excuse for torture.

To seek to hold one's government accountable for complicity in it is not a 'left' issue.

It is democracy.

The tone of your piece "THE NEW MOONBAT CRAZE IN BRITAIN" is not only misleading, but also, by casting aspersions on those who would challenge the continuation of this hideous state of affairs, tends to excuse the original act.

That you do not actually state your own opinion, whilst casting these aspersions, points to your own cowardice.

You are also factually in error.

Craig Murray wrote the book as a further continuation of his fight against Uzbeki torture, a fact he was certainly in a better position to judge the reality of than you, as he was the British Ambassador there. The 'documents' prove that this was his concern, showing as they do his opposition to UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office policy as far back as 2002. He also stood for parliament against our Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, in an effort to get these concerns a public hearing, after being continually rebuffed by the FCO. He states quite categorically that his book contains "his own thoughts" on the issue and that one need not buy it to read the documents, since he has made them widely available. The book itself is not available anyway, because by law, he must obtain permission from the UK Government before publishing, which has been refused. Hence the leak.

The torture referred to is not "British-outsourced" at all. The information, that Murray claims was obtained under torture that has been used by British Security Services, has come to them via the CIA. So if it is "outsourced" at all, it is by the US. In fact Murray's correspondence calls for an MI6 presence in Uzbekistan, which was apparently lacking: "We indeed need to establish an SIS presence here, but not as in a friendly state."

Craig Murray did not "organise" anything. He made the documents available to some popular bloggers and the rest of us, seeing the importance of the issue, mirrored the documents so that the UK Government could not stifle their publication with D-Notices or threats of prosecution under The Official Secrets Act.

In short, your piece is dross, with all the credibility appertaining to me, should i compose a rebuttal entitled "FAR-RIGHTEOUS EXCUSENIK SUPPORTS TORTURE". Then again, given that your purpose is simply to support what you mistakenly perceive as your short term interest, perhaps i will.

Here's the TIP:
You need to wake up and stop trying to view the world's events as ideological stances.

edjog

Nod to Jesus' General.

What i did not add to the email, in the spirit of politeness you understand, is that in her picture at the linked site, she looks to have been the victim of some rather poor plastic surgery and so, perhaps this is why she doesn't think torture's so bad, since she must live with anguish every day.
http://www.michellemalkin.com/mt/oct05-tb.cgi/3520

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Thursday, December 29, 2005

What the fuckin'ell do you think you're upto Tony & co?

So, DLA's, below you'll find the expert opinion of Ambassador Craig Murray, The UK Foreign Office's man on the spot, that information being used by British Security Services was being extracted under torture in Uzbekistan. Afterwards you will find the legal opinion of a government legal advisor Michael C Wood, who says that as long as the information is not used as evidence in a court of law, no offence has been committed under International Law.

So, it seems that Murray has been smeared and sacked. But he was having none and is attempting to publish a book to put forward his side of the story, however the UK Government have refused permission for him to reproduce the documents you see here, demanding them back or that he destroy them. Whether he actually said 'bollocks' is a matter for conjecture, but what is not is that he has made them available to Blairwatch and other bloggers to make it impossible to suppress this information. Craig, DLA's everywhere salute you as that rarest of examples in these cynical times: a principled man. You rock and more power to your elbow! Check him at his website, DLA's: follow the title link.

Now, it's a long one so i'm not even going to get into the unreliability of 'evidence' obtained under torture, but what i am going to get into (big time) is this:

JUST WHAT THE FUCKING HELL DO YOU FUCKING POWER MAD WANKERS IN WESTMINSTER THINK YOUR MANDATE TO RULE BRITAIN ENTAILS?

Because i'd be fucking surprised if you could find 10% of the electorate who would agree that it includes creating a demand for torture by accepting any information gained thus and what's more, those rabid enough to do so almost certainly didn't vote for you anyway, but rather are so mental that they'd probably be happy to see the same methods applied to you and your cabinet. In my name? In my fucking name? You disgusting cringeworthy shitbags: not in my bastard name you don't. I've done some fucked up shit in my time, but you lot are proper fucking scum. Oh aye, you need them fucking steel gates and armed police alright, and the way you're going it won't be to protect you from terrorists either. You horrible bastards: you honestly make my fucking stomach turn.

Now, it has not escaped my attention that i could be prosecuted under The Official Secrets Act for reproducing these documents, but like i've said before on this blog, fucking bring it Babylon. Apart from the fact that you'll find it a far from simple matter to arrest me, i'll fucking gladly do my bird if my prosecution, by highlighting your inhuman policy, spares even one Uzbeki two minutes of the kind of shit you're contributing to. Fucking boiling water? Fuck you, scum.

Update: (22:08 2005/12/29 GMT) So, this has pissed me off so much i've emailed my MP. Sadly i forgot to copy the contents i filled into the form on his website, but it basically said that this is appalling, horrible, cringeworthy and shameful; whatagwaan? I'll let you know if anything comes of it. Do it yourself. You can find out your MP's contact details here.

Update: (00:45 2005/12/30) So, Craig Murray's website has been pulled already! The WANKERS! Read it while you can.

Update: (03:36 2005/12/30) Apparently Murray's site was briefly live at 02:06, but went down again by 03:18, so i may have been hasty/paranoid earlier and it may be simply too much traffic after all. That doesn't change the fact that they're WANKERS though.

Update: (04:09 2005/12/30 GMT) Murray's site is live again but looks a whole lot different to when i viewed it earlier: i'm guessing it's been re-hosted. Now that's what i'm talking about: Democracy, not some pathetic choice of shades of oligarchy.

Update: (11:47 2005/12/30 GMT) Murray's site is back to how it was. Hmmm. Mysterious wee hours skulduggery. Perhaps whoever was responsible thought that nobody would notice, after all: we'd all be asleep so that we'd be able to continue our daily mantra;
"Be Good, Be Vigilant, Behave!"
Update: (03:57 2006/01/06 GMT) OK, so the documents are now widely available and need no longer take up so much room here. They can now be found 'Off The Main Page' where they belong, with the other ripped off stuff.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2005

Don't believe the hype.

So, i originally posted this at BetterHumans.com, in the sub-forum "Infinite Directions" but it needs an airing here also, where the language can properly decend to the correct level for the subject matter.

From the thread "Pat Robertson says something stupid, again"
"a man this vile has a platform in the most powerful state on the planet" ~ Marduk
Don't believe the hype mate. The basis for the claim that the US is the most powerful nation on earth has been fallacious for some time. It is based on the seeming potential power of the american economy, however as recent events have proved, even the dollar's value being artificially propped up by the fact that it is the currency OPEC chose as the standard for the sale of oil (thus like a magic chequebook, in that the redeemable value would never be required to be payed by the Federal Reserve), has not prevented a massive Trade Deficit ($650
billion,
i believe).

The domestic economy is in such poor shape that the President was forced to levy a %30 import tax on foreign steel imports not long ago, in an illegal (by the standards of the WTO) effort at protectionism, this despite the sheer fucking hypochrisy of that, whilst at the same time championing 'Free Trade'.

The domestic motor industry is so unable to cope that the big 3: Ford, GM & Chrysler, successfully negotiated a freeze on the application of law which would require their vehicles to meet minimum standards for fuel efficiency (so called CAFE law) for at least 3 years running, this despite that the required mpg was something like 27 point something for cars and 20-ish for light vans. Can you imagine European customers, never mind environmental lobbyists, standing for anything so piss poor?

Oh yeah, but it's ok because gasoline is so cheap in the US, right? In 2000, foreign imports of oil topped %50 as the source of domestically produced petroleum products, at a bill of a staggering $110 billion/year, at the time 1/4 of the Trade Deficit, as it was.

Funnily enough, this was about the same time that Iraq decided to convert all of its foreign currency reserve, derived from the sale of oil in Dollars, into Euros. Financial advisors were horrified, because by doing so Iraq would seem to be taking a massive loss at the then current rate of exchange. They went ahead anyway and wey-hey, the price of the Euro started to rise on the international market. Seeing that this strategy had worked profitably for Iraq, some other countries followed suit. The price of the Euro went right up, the Dollar's arse fell out briefly. Care to guess which countries they were? You've guessed it, "The axis of evil" Syria, North Korea and Iran. (I'm not certain, but i think Venezuela may have waded in also) Of course this has nothing to do with the reasons for war. After all, with such a massive Trade Deficit, which world leader wouldn't run his country further into debt with their most diametrically opposed ideological foes (China), in an effort to bring "democracy" to a fucked up patch of desert half way round the world, with all the potential to make war of a bunch of half starved fucking mentalists, with knackered equipment cobbled together from spare parts over ten years old, despite the desert/scrub terrain being notoriously hard on military materiel? (which obviously cuts both ways)

Fucking WMD? read this.

Ah, but they're rich over there! The most recent figures released by the Federal Reserve put the 'average income' of an American family, including the monetary value of such things as welfare payments, employee benefit/voluntary contributed health insurance, county based free emergency health provision, project housing, food stamps, and fucking charitable donations of food to poor families (!), at $47K-ish. This in a country that has probably the widest gap between the rich and poor of any industrialised nation, which tends to bump the figures higher. Think about that, just under 27 grand Stirling, for a family with no NHS. When you factor the benefits in, a single person would be hard pressed on that, never mind a family, in Europe. Bear in mind also that when a person becomes unemployed in the US, if they qualify for welfare payments, they only receive them for 6 months. Then it's food stamps, project housing and charitable food donations.

I've read about seasoned professional firefighters' family members being treated for fucking malnutrition because the 'man of the family' was too proud to collect the food stamps he was entitled to, considering that his wage would not support his family. For fuck's sake, what? Oh aye, streets paved with bastard gold over there! There'd be riots on the fucking streets over here.

Well, they've got the most powerful military machine! Possibly, i hardly know anything about China, let alone what its military strength might be. But consider this, where's the fucking wedge? It costs a fuck of lot of money to keep an effective fighting force in a state of readyness. The Bomb though! 'The most powerful man in the world' has 'the football', he's got his finger on 'the button' of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world! Again, i don't know what China's nuclear arsenal consists of, but so what? Past a certain point, like a rock dropping on your head, it just doesn't matter how big the cunt is is anymore, it's fucking good night Irene. The issue is, could they survive the political fallout of using even 1 nuclear weapon?

Consider this also, China has had a policy whereby no state benefit would be payed out to support more than 1 child/family, in an effort to reduce overpopulation. I mean, there's 1.4 billion of them already! Despite this, many Chinese families do manage to have 2 or even 3 kids, so there is some robustness to their domestic economy. How many extra children does $650 billion buy? OK, knock off the price of a uniform, a bit of extra food and a Khalashnikov.

Tell me now, and take all the fucking time you need, who is the most powerful man in the world?
Hu Jintao
That's who.

China's currency is pegged to the Dollar, at half its rate i think, but they've been on about floating it internationally for a while now. How much will the poxy Dollar be worth then? And oil is running out...

After the depression of the 30's, where did the readys come from to build the infrastructure necessary to turn out the war machine which rolled up Hitler and 'won' the cold war arms race? From the cost of selling Britain it's obsolete equipment and then the further costs of lend-lease for the new stuff, once the factories were able to produce it. By stripping the British Empire, we mortgaged ourselves to the hilt to keep Nazism at bay. So where has it all gone now? Fuck knows, the arms race used up a lot i suspect, but also, i'm guessing they just haven't kept pace with infrastructure investment.

Like i say, don't believe a word of it mate, they're done. They just don't know it yet. That is the difference between short sighted pursuit of immediate gains, seeming luxury, and long term political strategy. Unsurprisingly, nations which have been around for yonks are better at it than relative newcomers. I mean check out Vladimir Putin, he doesn't seem like a man who gives a shit about his political situation, eh? Personally, i think that is one of the reasons why the media in the UK are always so quick to whip up anti-european sentiment. The media barons' empires are built of stock holdings, if the Dollar does take a terminal dive, much of their wealth will be wiped out overnight. If the UK joined the Euro, the Dollar would be truly fucked. The sad thing for us in the UK is that through the short-sighted Thatcher/Major years we have not made the most of our international position, much of our overseas trade is tied up with the US.

I'm sure that's why Tony Blair can regularly be seen kissing Dubya's arse and why he looks so constipated doing it. A lifelong committed socialist pally-pally with a far righteous, religious fruitcake, Republican? It just makes no sense unless there's a plan behind it. Perhaps we are consolidating our position, preparing to cut our losses? Who do you reckon has got the best handle on what's going down, Gordon Brown, with the most impressive record as Chancellor we've seen for yonks, or Paul Wolfowitz another far right monetarist, the policies of which have fucked the US right up the arse?

It seems a shame that the last to realise it will be the American public. Things are going to be fucked right up over there. They already murder each other at the drop of a hat, for fuck's sake. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to see civil disturbance and rioting on a hithertofore unforseen scale shortly followed by a military coup d'etat and the sort of oppression not seen since the Nazis.

Now, i fucking hate the US anyway, so on the one hand i think so what, they've fucked themselves properly this time, the daft cunts, they can fuck off and die. But on the other, it will be truly fucked up. A lot of people who might not be strictly innocent, having lived it up off the bullshit leading up to my scenario, but who aren't exactly culpable either, having been consistently fucking lied to for so long, are going to suffer and die. Then on a third hand, as it were, do we seriously expect them to go quietly? Will they fuckerslike! Who knows what depraved war and planetary devastation the soulless wankers are capable of? They're the only country to have ever dropped The Bomb, when Japan was already virtually defeated and suing for peace through Russia.

Which leads on to nightmare scenario #2. No, not nuclear war, because if that happened, we'd all be fucked and the last thing i'd give a flying fuck about is your opinion on it. What if the rest of the world, realising what a bunch of fucking lunatics we're dealing with here, sort of 'club together' to allow the US to get out of the worst their moronic economic mismanagement has wrought. Do we seriously expect that they'll fucking learn? The country that somehow managed to almost deify Ronald Reagan as a 'Great President' in the lead up to his death, an administration that fucked them over almost as badly as the one they've got now seems intent on doing? Will they my steaming shite! They'll be back, skanking money left, right and centre and spanking it on running all over the bastard world fucking pillaging the last few currency units out of their fucked up dead system (oil/steel economy), proclaiming the virtues of:
The Land of the Free-Lunch and
The Home of the Brave Talkers.
The fucking useless, brainless, pointless wankers!

Some of you DLA's will have read some of this stuff from me before, much of the new stuff (especially the Trade War stuff) comes courtesy of my having seem Rob Newman & Mark Thomas live, so thanx lads, top show. Leave the fucking singing/rapping off the end next time, eh? It wasn't that funny and compared to what had just been said, fucking banal.

Some of it is my own humble research, some tidbits from the blogosphere. Of course, i could have plastered the post with links to illustrate the veracity of my assertions/reportage, but then again: fuck off you lazy bastard! Check it out yourself, hey who knows, perhaps i've fucked some of it up, you'll be able to come back and tell me what a twerp i am. Still, maybe it's as serious as i suggest and you'll realise that far more effectively if you suss it for yourself.

Oh yeah, and just in case you are working for the US government keeping tabs on 'sedition' or some such cleg-nut rattle-age (yes, i know that you have no idea what that means, check Urban Dictionary, it's probably in there, ^Top of the Page^ moron) i am a UK citizen with the right to call anybody a cunt on my own website, should i so please, and believe me: i do please, oh how do i fucking please. I'm sure you can probably find out where i am and i know you're certainly not above malicious dirty tricks: hey bring it, i've no door bell and i live at the top of the building, so you'd have to break in. Funnily enough, that would give me the right to brain you with a suspiciously handy blunt instrument, do it soon Babylon, i'm in just about the right fucking mood.

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Monday, December 19, 2005

Spiritual

So yeah, hey DLA's, PaulEdward Snyder has done it again, follow the title link to check him at PBA.

Now, before anyone starts in with the 'mutual appreciation society'/'intellectual masturbation' et al., because PaulEdward was complimentary about some stuff i wrote in response to his post "Soul", let me just remind you that this is my blog and if you don't like the things i'm interested in, fuck off elsewhere!

Oversensitive? Paranoid even? Maybe, but i've had a cyber-mauling recently so i thought, "Fuck it, i'll get my digs in first."

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Friday, December 16, 2005

War Against Conservativism

So, after sober reflection (oh haha), i've decided this needs its own post.

Hosted by Putfile.comThat's right, DLA's, it's another war against ideas and it's even got a logo.

The difference here is that, far from seeking to erode your civil liberties, this moronic campaign seeks to ridicule those who would do precisely that. So start campaigning today for the ban of lettuce in our schools. Lettuce contains small quantities of a drug called Lactucarine, an opiate which, although 10x weaker than Morphine, could be habit forming if consumed in sufficient quantity. We should protect our children further, it's no use teaching them to form their own opinions about adult behaviour, after all they should do as they're told, no the way to protect them from paedophiles is to make clothing like this compulsory! Just don't get me started on actual war, i'm sure you get the idea anyway...

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The nadir of base perfidy!

OK, so maybe i'm going over the top a bit here, but it's a great phrase, and people who nick lighters are scum. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that my addictive personality makes me react to finding that i can't light my fag in a more extreme way than your average nicotine addict but, really, come on!

Picture the scene: you're walking home after a pleasant evening, maybe it's 03:30 am or so, perhaps you've inhaled some Ganj (if you don't know what that is, you're on the wrong site: go away), not enough to give you the fear (perhaps just 2nd hand fumes), you don't feel any cold, the sky is clear, burglar's moon, beautiful stars... you feel content and contemplative, you're in no hurry to get home. A fag as you dawdle along will go down nicely right now, eh?

So you get one together but no light! You frantically search your pockets, but no joy! Now you really want this fag, the more stressed you get the more you want it! The peace of the night is shattered, especially if you live in some 19th century stylee benighted hole that doesn't have 24hr shops. It's at this point that you remember giving somebody a light earlier, but not getting the precious article back. Now, am i wrong, or does that person need a kick in the crotch?

I've resorted to attaching my lighter to my keyring with a clip before, but they still get nicked. For some people it seems to be a form of kleptomania, sometimes they genuinely don't even realise they're doing it. Of course, in this latter instance, the swift application of a fist to the offending biceps will bring the gravity of the situation home adequately and i commend this course of action to DLA's everywhere.

So, have any of you had one of the new Swan refillable lighters? The black ones are well cool: matte rubberised finish, very tactile. Oh aye, gotta have a refillable lighter, innit? Disposables are a resource wasting calumny. For sure, refillabes wear out eventually, even though you can replace the flint, because the strike-wheel stops working. You can extend their life by using a needle or pin to clean the dead skin/scuzz, that builds up, off them. Of course, if it wasn't for fucking lighter thieving cunts, we could get a decent lighter that lasts even longer, thus wasting even less resources, but who can afford to keep replacing them?

Now, there'll be some non-smokers out there, especially reformed smokers, who think this is funny and that the simple answer would be to give it up. Well as i've mentioned before, i'm trying to get up the will power to do so, but should i succeed, i'll not be having a go at those who continue. Why would i do that, since i know all to well how pernicious an affliction nicotine addiction is? As i've also mentioned before, in the meantime those of you who take this attitude can feel entirely at liberty to fuck right off!

In a similar vein, as it were, you'll notice that just because i can no longer consume recreational drugs without very negative consequences, i've not suddenly started supporting the ridiculous policy of banning them. Yes, they do fuck you up, if you're not careful, and if you're unlucky even if you are careful, but so does a lot of things, the most common being the nuclear family (which we will get to at some future point). You'd have thought that the example of US Alcohol Prohibition would have been enough to dissuade people over the advisability of attempting to legislate over what a person can or cannot consume, eh? Then again, given that Prohibition had to be repealed and we see a similar public flouting of the law, with all it's attendant costs to society, perhaps the fact that drug laws remain has little to do with the supposed purpose of restricting their use? After all, there's a huge infrastructure involved here and fortunes to be made by those rich enough to import container loads of whatever. It's not as if it's the, usually poor, people who typically get busted for drugs who can afford to keep the supply flowing, eh?

Obviously drug laws will be relaxed eventually, because the cost of enforcing them will be seen as an increasingly frivolous waste of money when the costs of caring for our aging populations, here in the west, start to really bite. When that happens and, for those of you who currently enjoy a hassle free supply of your favourites, i'd ask you to remember that your freedom of choice has been bought by the efforts of many who were prepared to flout the law in times when doing so was a much riskier enterprise, many of whom have become casualties in the War Against Conservativism.

While you're at it, check out Ky-mani Marley's tune 'Warriors' from his album 'The Journey'. You can hear it being played by DJ Dread@It's Reggae.com (from the radio selector above) a lot right now. In fairness, it goes off into some of the usual self-agrandising arse, but hey, what can you do? It's a proper tune...
One time for my warriors, my last smugglers and all my buffalo soldiers
One time for my warriors, my heat carriers and all my buffalo, yo

Full Lyrics
The Journey: hear snippets/buy it.

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Thursday, December 15, 2005

More American Idiocy

So this is my reply to a post on Mike G. Gaither's blog libertyWatch, about an American Town having to formulate a payment plan to pay the legal costs of losing law suits over insisting on saying prayers at the start of council meetings (which is against their Constitution). The full text of which is also available 'Off The Main Page', incase it should change there.

dude,

that's so funny! Only because the money wouldn't have gone on anything worthwhile anyway, i mean even assuming it went on a teacher, what sort of teacher would be acceptible to these morons? Probably one who was prepared to teach 'creationism' as a 'theory'. Shame it didn't bankrupt the entire town i say!

We have a saying in the UK, "Only in America!" The accepted behaviour upon this utterance is to snigger and shake our heads. This is to prevent us from having to consider the planetary cost and worrying ramifications of a bunch of under and ill educated barbarians pillaging their way through everything civilisation has acheived, because if we did, we'd cry bitter tears of frustration, like a crack addict murderer's mother.

I don't follow any organised religion, but it's like Malcolm X said, "When the Bible mentions Soddom and Gomorrah, that's America!"

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Friday, December 09, 2005

Fuck's sake!

Oh aye, it's all going off @DLA today (2005/12/08).

You may remember that i was trying to get a sidebar on the left also from a previous post. Well, my knowledge of Cascading Style Sheet (CSS) code has finally caught up with my wish: TADA!

So the panther .gif looks a bit naff now that it's expanded to fill the same width as the Babel Fish panel, which is an arse because, even though it was only meant to be temporary, i've got quite fond of the thing ceaslessly plodding along. New link to the 'Off The Main Page' area of this blog which deals with stuff blatantly ripped off from elsewhere, it's the Jolly Roger on the right.

Still no joy on the menu front. Sadly it seems i'm going to have to really study to get that sussed, because all the decent looking ones that i've attempted to rip off require a link to an external Style Sheet and/or Javascript file, which would need to be accessible online somewhere, unless i wanted to use my own Mac as a server, which i'm just not that dedicated to do. Free web hosts don't seem to like you parking files for use by other websites on their servers, so i'll have to actually work out how the fucking code works so i can write it directly into DLA's page here @ Blogspot.

Pretty much the same goes for Navigation Tabs on the iframe that still only looks in on PBA and fuck knows what the gobshites @ Power-Counter are upto, i mean fucking hell, what is this, an H2K bug? I suspect i'll end up going with Site Meter. Anyway, fucked now, off to bed...

Update (10:48 GMT, 2005/12/09): so the fucking right sidebar now appears halfway down the fucking page in microshit IE. What a ball-ache. I'll have to sort it, but dude(tte)s, just get Mozilla, or even just Firefox as your browser (if you're somehow wedded to Outlook). That's laughing in Safari, but the footer appears at the end of the right sidebar! Give me strength...

So, do these changes mean that DLA is going to get ads now? Yes it does, as soon as i get round to dragging the ripped off stuff onto 'Off The Main Page', and work out why my Google Adsense enquiries didn't work properly. In fairness, i was probably still using Internet Excrementerâ„¢.

Update (15:05 GMT, 2005/12/09): well i've tried but my tags are correctly closed etc. it seems that IE is well known for fucking up margins and padding values and as for Safari: fuck knows! Get Mozilla people, it's the way forward.

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Thursday, December 08, 2005

Bloody hit counter!

So, i dunno what's happened to the thing, but it seems to have reset to zero when it reached 2000 hits. I've emailed for tech support... i'm thinking of swapping to some other thingyo anyway, with more stats info, we'll see what power-counter have got to say for themselves.

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