Alliser Thorne

The reason he took the black was because he supported the Targaryen side during Robert's rebellion. Then Jon Snow comes along. Unwittingly, Alliser despised, and even killed, Rhaegar's last living son.

Ser Alliser Thorne was sent to the Wall because he had been loyal to House Targaryen during Robert's Rebellion. He was executed at the Wall for betraying House Targaryen's heir (assuming R+L=J of course).

Alliser Thorne's speech in S6E01 was really well done. I almost believed him myself. The Night's Watch was ready to kill him but he said the perfect things in the perfect order to not only save his skin but to set himself in the role of leadership.

"Jon Snow is dead."

"Who killed him?!"

"I did. And Bowen Marsh, and Othel Yarwick, and the other officers in this castle."

He fesses up to it immediately, dispelling any ideas that he regrets it or that he is alone. Any hint of hesitation or guilt would be deadly for him here, and he knows it.

"We've committed treason, all of us. Jon Snow was my Lord Commander. I had no love for him. That was no secret.

Having established that this mutiny involved several people, he makes the leap and extends the blame to everyone present, the entire Night's Watch. While not strictly a true statement, it gives the brothers pause. None of them can be sure just how big this mutiny was, and suddenly speaking out against it feels like a dangerous prospect. Alliser breezes past this lie by following it up with an undeniable truth, an empty confession. Everyone knew he hated Jon.

"But I never once disobeyed an order. Loyalty is the foundation on which The Night's Watch is built and The Watch means everything to me. I have given my life, we have all given our lives to The Night's Watch."

Alliser appeals to their sense of duty while painting himself in an honorable light. Again, it's very important not to offer any apology whatsoever.

"He let the Wildlings through our gates as no Lord Commander has ever done before. He gave them the very land on which they reaved and raped and murdered."

This is probably the most compelling part of the argument for the Night's Watch brothers. Most of them disagreed strongly with Jon's particular decision here. Allowing their enemies of 1000's of years through the gates to eat and live with them. When the Wildlings outnumbered the Night's Watch, the brothers began to fear for their own safety.

"Lord Commander Snow did what he thought was right, I have no doubt about that. And what he thought was right would've been the end of us. He thrust a terrible choice upon us and we made it."

Alliser wraps up his speech by reiterating his previous points. The mutiny was necessary, we did it because it needed to be done, not because we hated Jon, we're all responsible, and we're all in this together. He ends on a note of unity.

I just want to say for the record that I think Alliser Thorne is horrible person. He just happens to also be a great fighter and public speaker.

So Thorne get's a lot of flak from viewers and readers alike for putting Jon through the ringer for seemingly no reason. But in Tyrion III we get to understand the motivation behind his animosity towards Jon Snow.

"He fought bravely at King's Landing." "On the wrong side," Ser Jeremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spike for before evenfall."

Tyrion III, A Game of Thrones

Thorne was a courageous and honorable knight who happened to be on the wrong side of the war. This would land him on the wall for the rest of his life, and when the "bastard" of the one of the key parties in Robert's Rebellion arrives at the wall he takes his understandable frustration out on him. The situation becomes much more ironic assuming R+L=J ends up being true.

TL;DR: Thorne is dick to John because he was a Targ supporter.

Now, since Ser Alliser is all but a goner here in the next few episodes, I'd like to use this thread to show some appreciation for this great character!

"With me now, now with me!"

What do you guys think about Ser Alliser?

In A Dance with Dragons, Jon sends him ranging north but we never hear of what happened to him. He's still somewhere north of the Wall. Do you think he'll make it back to the Wall, or do you think this was just a way for George to kill off his character with a mysterious disappearance. (I think the latter is more likely, though it would be funny if he arrives back just after Jon dies)

I’m currently rereading A Feast For Dragons (Boiled Leather) and rewatching GoT S5, and I just gotta say Ser Alliser gets a lot of undue flack by not only his in-universe counterparts, but by the fandom as a whole. The man is an asshole; he’s intentionally cruel and mean; he’s blatant in his attempts to create negative discourse at Castle Black- and yet I am of the belief that he has the biggest heart of the Nights Watch council and takes his job as Master at Arms with utmost seriousness. I posit that his cruelty toward the recruits, especially the highborn, is a genuine attempt at getting them to adjust quickly and safely to their grim and dangerous duties. Picture his perspective: Thousands of green boys have come to Black under his tutelage, almost overwhelmingly not of their own volition. Those who are criminals have been historically misrepresented, and it is those criminal recruits that he gives more heed: they are already hardened by the cruelties of the world and have found themselves at their final destination. It is the highborn recruits like Snow and Tarly that he treats with outright derision: he is trying to make them realize they should turn back. Thorne’s supervision occurs specifically before swearing the Words; the only people who can turn back are the vocational Highborn. Who is the last notable Highborn who specifically expressed the need to be a Ranger Hero? Waymar “Dance With Me” Royce, aka Mr. Extremely Dead. I truly believe Alliser is just trying to prepare for what he knows is coming and save who he can.

As the title, why send Thorne directly to King's landing with the wight's hand?

Why not send him down the kingsroad showing every lord he meets/boards with the hand and warning them of what's going on? He could follow the road to White harbor and then sail to King's landing. Hell, he could stop at Runestone on the way to tell Bronze Yhon, who sent his third son to the watch not three years prior, that some spooky shit was happening north of the wall. Yhon is incredibly well respected in the Vale, his word alone almost moved the Vale in support of Robb. Against a politically neutral threat he could have brought 20,000 men north.

You send him to the king a month or more away and if something goes wrong he could be laughed out of court, but if you send him to a dozen lords along the way who will vouch for him the threat will not so easily be dismissed. The assumption that the word of the watch alone would move the north to the wall is repeatedly shown to be wrong, and Jeor should know it, doubly so when the north is currently in rebellion against the crown.

And further, why not have Jon personally write to Winterfell and Robb warning them that dead men are rising from the grave like in the old tales. These people don't believe in this shit anymore, why would they just expect the north to believe them without the word of someone their king knows and trusts, or even better physical evidence. (Yes Robb isn't in the north, but such a proclamation would drastically alter his war strategy towards risky quick victory rather than the drawn out campaign that turned everything against him)

So far as we are shown there seems to be an utter lack of any sort of communication between the watch and Winterfell. There is ample time for them to send word of what happened and the ranging to Winterfell but we hear nothing of it in Bran's chapters, not even a casual dismissal from Luwin, who Bran and Rickon are steadily spooking with their growing magic. Practically every lord or person of influence left in the north gathered in Winterfell for the harvest festival around that time. Dump a wight hand on the table and even Wyman manderly would choke on his food.

Why does he despise Jon so much? I understand disliking him because of Ned's role in Robert's Rebellion, but how the hell did he manage to keep his cool (relatively speaking) around Benjen for years and years if his loathing for the Starks is so pronounced?

Why, after a decade and a half on the Wall, is he so eager for Janos Slynt (a man with whom he is at best vaguely familiar, who possesses no discernable talent whatsoever and is of lower birth even then Jon Snow) to become Lord Commander, when there are two other obviously qualified candidates for whom he could lobby?

In short, book Alliser seems like a cardboard cutout motivated only to oppose Jon at every opportunity while cackling about how he'll get him "and your little direwolf, too!". One wonders what he was doing with himself before Jon came along. (Show Alliser, on the other hand, at least feels somewhat alive as a character).

Completely different than his portrayal in TV show.

He wasn't one of the Night's Watch men who stabbed/killed Jon Snow. Jon orders him and a few other Rangers to go North and he tells Jon, he better hope he doesn't die and come back as an "Other" or something similar.

Ser Alliser likely one of the highest ranking Night Watch members left alive, one of the more interesting characters at the Wall. But the Night's Watch currently has many issues at the end of A Dance with Dragons.

In my most recent rhaegar playthrough I won the war but the sack of kings landing happened killing Aegon Rhaenys and Elia, leaving Jon (Daeron in my playthru) as my only heir, fast forward 12 years a guardianship event happens were daeron threw something at Thorne who was my master at arms or something, I chose the banishment option and sent him to the wall, they hated each other so much in the series that it invaded my game

Each contestant has an opportunity to insult the other character in the following formats:

3 min Ser Thorne opening insults

3 min Dr. Cox opening insults

3 min Ser Thorne rebuttal

3 min Dr. Cox rebuttal

1 min Ser Thorne closing insults

1 min Dr. Cox closing insults

Winner is determined by a panel of seven judges (Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormount, Olenna Tyrell, JD Dorian, Janitor, Carl Espinsoa, and Mark Twain) who are instructed to give each contestant a ranking of 10 for creativity and effectiveness of insults. Judges are asked to be as objective as possible, but it's understood that there may be some biases such as Tyrion and JD. All judges and both contestants are aware of all events that took place in ASOIAF/GoT and Scrubs.

Ties are broken by Mark Twain.

I'm referring to the mutiny in ADwD.

Have you picked up on any clues that suggest as much, or is there really no evidence that the man who hates Jon Snow most had nothing to do with the betrayal?

Just wanted to drop in to hate on Ser Alliser, who is close to my least favorite character in the series. Why is he even Master at Arms? While he definitely has skill with a sword, he shows absolutely no interest in being good at his job. Not only does he mock new recruits (with no training at all) for being poor soldiers, he actually mocks Jon for trying to teach them. And iirc, Jon notes that they don’t even know how to properly hold a sword. Thorne has literally taught them nothing. It seems to me that Thorne would be much better suited as a ranger, not as a moulder of young recruits.

When Ser Alliser is sent off on a dangerous ranging beyond the Wall in ADWD, he warns Jon that if he is killed by the Others, he will come back for revenge as a wight. While that would make a pretty cool scene, I think it makes more sense for the story for Ser Alliser to come back. Here are my reasons:

1) GRRM could be purposely leading us to believe that Ser Alliser will die to set up readers to be surprised when he survives and is just fine.

2) Melisandre prophecizes that three of the nine rangers Jon Snow sent out will die, and that's what happens. She never predicts Ser Alliser's death.

3) Ser Alliser was a knight in King's Landing who served the Targaryens before the rebellion. Given that we all know R + L = J, its interesting that Ser Alliser may have known Rhaegar Targaryen personally. Perhaps they were even friends (or enemies). When Jon Snow learns his parentage, I think he's going to embrace his Targaryen identity (all that foreshadowing about not being welcome in the Stark's home). It could be interesting to explore this connection

4) Ser Alliser is kinda a core character. He's been in it since the first book. He's arguably Jon Snow's main antagonist, and Jon Snow is arguably the main character of the series. Snow worries about Ser Alliser and his associates even after he is sent off. Him returning as a mindless wight would eliminate all of the character drama that Alliser has.

5) Now that Jon Snow is dead, a new "choosing" will happen to pick the new Lord Commander. Cotter Pyke is in trouble at Hardhome (possibly dead), Denys Mallister is at the Shadow Tower, and Janos Slynt is dead. The most obvious choices to me are Othell Yarwyck; Bowen Marsh; maybe even Edd Tollet; and (if he returns) Se Alliser. All four of these men ran in the last election. It could be Bowen Marsh, but I think Ser Alliser would be the most interesting choice. Even though Ser Alliser is unlikeable, he might be supported by both the anti-Jon faction (because they know he hates Jon) AND the pro-Jon faction of the NW (because they know he wasn't involved in Jon's mutiny)

Some more thoughts on Alliser's Fate:

• Assuming Ser Alliser returns, it will change the story depending on when he arrives. Will he return before or after Jon's resurrection? Will he return before or after R + L = J is revealed? It's not clear when or where these events will happen. Jon could be resurrected at Castle Black, Winterfell, or the Nightfort. He could be resurrected early in TWOW, the middle, or late in the book. There are many ways R + L = J could be revealed; maybe Samwell learns in Oldtown; Bran learns via the trees; Howland Reed shows up; maybe Benjen knows. I dont know where or when that will happen, but I think it should happen in TWOW, maybe near the end of the book.

• If Alliser returns, it will have to be an event in a chapter. It won't happen "off-page"

• If Ser Alliser is going to be Lord Commander, then he will return soon, maybe in the first Melisandre chapter. They will probably be electing a new Lord Commander in the first Melisandre chapter. The NW and the Wildings will reach an uneasy stalemate in the wake of Jon's murder; this is only because the NW controls the hostages that Jon collected from the Wildling-chiefs at the end of ADWD, as I wrote in my .

• If the Lord Commander is Ser Alliser, he will probably decide to hand over Selyse, Shireen, Mel, Monster, and Val to Ramsay. (But Bowen Marsh would make the same decision if he were Lord Commander)

• If Ser Alliser becomes Lord Commander, maybe he will hate Ghost. Maybe he'll want Ghost to be kicked out of Castle Black. Maybe he'll want to burn Jon's body

• I wonder if it's possible for Ser Alliser to have a redemption story. Jon Snow considers this:

"Jon watched the riders go from atop the Wall—three parties, each of three men, each carrying a pair of ravens. From on high their garrons looked no larger than ants, and Jon could not tell one ranger from another. He knew them, though. Every name was graven on his heart. Eight good men, he thought, and one … well, we shall see." (Jon VI, ADWD)

• It would be cool for Alliser to have a redemption story maybe, but it would also be cool for Alliser to come back alive and do one last thing to fuck up Jon's mission somehow

• If Alliser and resurrected-Jon Snow ever meet up after R + L = J, I'd be interested to see how Ser Alliser reacts

• It's interesting that Ser Alliser is basically Jon Snow's #1 enemy, yet he's also the one guy who's definitely innocent in Jon's assassination. I wonder if GRRM did this on purpose so that he could conceivably have Jon and Alliser meet after R + L = J is revealed. The mutineers may not survive long, if Alliser is one of them than neither will he

What do you guys predict about Ser Alliser Thorne's fate and how he may effect the story in Castle Black?

Am I way off base? Is he just gonna be gone forever? Will he return as a wight? Is it wrong to think he'd be Lord Commander since he is considered unlikeable? Is it wrong to think he might have some kind of redemption arc? You heard any good theories regarding Ser Alliser?

Alliser was more fleshed out in the show. Especially the episode where the wildlings attack the wall. The conversation with Jon and his speech really made me feel different about the man.

Ok, I'm making a few assumptions for this post:

• R+L=J

• Jon's parentage will be revealed, likely by Melisandre

• Jon will be either survive his assassination attempt or be revived by Melisandre

• Jon will not be a wight

• Alliser Thorne will return from his current ranging alive

We know that Thorne fought for the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion, and was giving the choice of the Wall or death by Tywin Lannister. While ill-tempered and humorless, his prowess as a fighter and soldier is not in question.

I'm curious, should he return to find Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar, do you think this will change his attitude toward him?

It seems to me Alliser takes his oath seriously, and is more committed to the Watch than the affairs of the Realm. However, given the potential implications of RLJ regarding the fight against the Others, could an enemy become an ally?

Not expecting a huge discussion, just wondered if anyone has an opinion on this. Thanks!

Was Waymar Royce such a prick that Ser Alliser sees a look alike lordling in Jon Snow that he just says not this shit again.

I bet that he tried to treat Waymar like the rest of the recruits and saw him turn into an arrogant ass who looked down on the rest of the watch. Pretty much getting himself and two others killed.

So when Jon shows up he goes out of his way to single him out and try and lower him below the rest.