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GeneralATL Hawk's thoughts on how to balance Sigma (twitter.com)

submitted by MEisonReddit<500 | NA Stronk —

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[–]GenWalrus 56 points57 points  (2 children)

Am I the only one who read this as the NBA team having a take on Sigma?

[–]orangekingo 10 points11 points  (0 children)

NBA LEGEND VINCE CARTER DISHES THE HEAT ON SIGMA BALANCE

[–]hobotripin5000-Quoth the raven,Evermor — 58 points59 points  (6 children)

Let Dva eat the rock.

[–]neddoge 41 points42 points  (1 child)

Thought I wandered on another overwatch sub for a moment there.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[–]TyaTheOlivedaddy clockwork uwu — 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Hana Song x Dwayne Johnson lemon fanfiction

[–]UnknownQTY 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Dva eat, Genji deflect.

[–]estranhow 5 points6 points  (2 children)

For that to be fair, you have to remove the wind-up time. If that happen, oh boy, this sub will go insane!

[–]DonnieDarkoWasBad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Have DVa break the rock apart so it only delays the splash damage at distance.

[–]SoccerStar9001OrisaBrigitte — 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If they have to do something with the wind up, they can just reduce it instead removing it completely.

[–]estranhow 107 points108 points  (2 children)

Are we in the "bad take January"?
You know, Rein has twice Sigma's shield health, steadfast, and Firestrike doesn't have such a big wind-up. Saying that "it is a slap in the face of previously heroes" makes it sound like their kits are identical, which is far from reality.

[–]goldsbananas 28 points29 points  (0 children)

firestrike also goes through shields and players.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, I'm fairly certain Orisa can halt and fortify while her shield is up, too. Winston can do whatever, as well.

[–][deleted] 79 points80 points  (8 children)

The only thing that this would do is make the character clunky. It makes sense for Rein to not be able to firestrike while his shield is up

Also, who uses Kinetic Grasp while Shield is up? Thats just useless

[–]DamnDangDarnDead 36 points37 points  (4 children)

You use kinetic grasp while shield is up so that your team doesn’t die from a widow every time you grasp

[–]TheSciFanGuy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’ve used it on occasion to poke through the shield and eat burst (Hanzo storm for example) in order to make the shield last longer so we can hold that spot but it’s a rare thing to be sure.

But I totally agree it doesn’t seem to fix anything except to make the hero more clunky as the shield doesn’t change his state in any way which would make a locked ability make sense

[–]9988554 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Make it so that he has to hold his hand up to keep his shield in place then then he would be unable to use that hand to form the rock or grasp

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do it against enemy sigma to bait his rock and walk behind the shield to not get stunned by it

[–]TheSciFanGuy 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Rein physically can’t firestrike when his shield is up as shielding changes his state Sigma’s state doesn’t change due to his shield outside of his casting animation making this idea unintuitive and as other posters said clunky.

It’s like saying Winston can’t leap when he has shield up a nerf to be sure but something that doesn’t make sense based on the hero.

[–]LungsMcGee 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't necessarily agree that this change is what Sigma needs, but...

Reflavouring the rock ability could get around this. No longer hucking a giant rock, but perhaps drawing on the same energy that creates the shield and throwing it offensively. Mechanically identical, just now it's blue/red and glowy and not a rock.

[–]TheSciFanGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That starts going into full rework territory which I think would be better suited to other changes but in any case the point I was making wasn’t that it wouldn’t look right but rather that the idea itself would feel unintuitive to play with how the shield currently works.

As the shield stays in place to throw a rock you now need to drop shield then throw rock which now means that reaction rocks are far less smooth. It basically results in a Sigma that uses shield or a Sigma that uses rock which while maybe better for balancing isn’t a lot of fun to play when there are both far simpler or far more effective ways of changing him.

Like if you want to go full rework why waste all that time on a feature that isn’t going to work with his kit? And if you’re going simple why are you making his gameplay more static and clunky?

I agree it’s possible to implement in a full rework but I just need to question why put all of those resources into a bad idea?

[–]Relodie 27 points28 points  (1 child)

These takes of "every added hero should be a reskinned version of an existing hero or have the same weaknesses" are honestly terrible, there are issues with Sigma in pro play, being able to use abilities while having a shield up is not one of them

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This dude calls sigma’s abilities broken individually in his replies, but apparently using all these broken abilities together is the issue, and not that they are all broken

[–]atyon 8 points9 points  (4 children)

it is a slap in the face to the previously designed heroes

I'm all for compassion, but framing Sigma's design as an affront to a fantasy character is a bit radical. Won't anyone think of the pixels' feeling?

[–]Neptunera 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You go heavy on the pathos when your argument is weak - Debate 101.

[–]github-alphapapa -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

It's called rhetoric.

It's really a slap in the face to the players whom Blizzard expects to still enjoy playing the game having added these poorly designed characters.

[–]atyon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's not called "rhetoric" when someone struggles to make a concise point.

And I disagree with the point and its whiny undertones. A slap in the face? Because there's, supposedly, a tank who has a better secondary damage ability than Rein?

[–]Neither7Give Mei 200hp — 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This argument would have made sense before the shield nerf, when Rein's shield only had 33% more hp. But now? It has 77% more hp, why should he also be useless while holding up his shield?

[–]SoulLessIkeSeoul-Less Ike — 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Reason 70921 why Blizzard doesn’t listen to pros on game design and proof of how pros may understand mechanics better, but they’re sure as hell no better at game design than the rest of the community.

The only thing this change would do is make sigma feel completely awful to play. Also his argument doesn’t work since the only main tank that’s committed to shield or abilities is Reinhardt. He’s the odd one out.

[–]github-alphapapa -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

So who is good at game design?

[–]notregular 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Low risk high reward. Ez to play for new players

[–]Teru92 29 points30 points  (2 children)

Sigma is harder than rein lol

[–]GobblesGibbles 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Most of the people complaining bout tanks don’t even play tanks I swear.

[–]Teru92 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yea, maybe we should look into the power creep across all roles before nerfing the least played one and increase q times even more

[–]MiennaiSTOP KILLING MY SON — 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This would feel weird, but you could fix it by having Sigma hold his hand up while the shield is being projected. That way, there's a clear visual indication of why you can't use any other abilities.

If they went in this direction, then rock and grasp should auto-cancel shield if you use them.

[–]Artuhanzo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You want people dont want to que for tank? Thats how you do it.

Sigma outside Orais as partner was not op, the problen is Orais

[–]Sundiray -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

What a fkin pepega. Glad this guy will never get to do game design

[–]GunstarRed -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Some of the dumbest shit I have ever read.

[–]asos10 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there should be a penalty to having shield up for sigma. I suggested movement speed reduction when shield is deployed to make it similar to rien.

[–]korolin3500 PC — 0 points1 point  (3 children)

For some people it's better to keep silence and appear smart than speak and clear all doubts.

[–]github-alphapapa -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

You should take your own advice, because you haven't responded to his argument. I agree with him that Sigma's design is like a "slap in the face" to Rein. The heroes Blizzard adds to the game now are bland do-it-alls rather than having clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. Overwatch is not nearly as fun or interesting as it was in the past, and this is a big part of why that is.

[–]korolin3500 PC — 3 points4 points  (1 child)

There's nothing to respond to, his statements are ridiculous, as many pointed out it would make sigma clunky not only for veteran sigma players but for beginners as well. Being good at the game doesn't mean he knows anything about game design / game theory. He is bashing Sigma, when we have a Baptiste who is a bigger slap in the face to other supports. There are different ways on how to balance Sigma without making change to his core mechanics.

[–]Puke_Skywanker -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Make rock deflectable by genji and eatable by diva, remove grasp's characteristics of diva matrix (no longer eats ultis, maybe longer duration as a trade-off or replace with a new effect) and make its visuals more representative of its hitbox. Rework Bap's immortality field, perhaps with a biotic field-like ability, you put down a "totem" that cuts down in half all the damage received in aoe for your teammates, there's no place for immortality in the game, it has to go.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

People said the same about Rez, that it can't be balanced. Yet it is still in the game, no one complains about it anymore and Mercy is one of the weakest supports nonetheless. History repeats itself.

[–]Puke_Skywanker -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Mass Rez was reworked becaused it was thought of as "unfun" and "unfair" by the vast amount of the community and such opinion was justifiable whether you were in favor of the rework or not. Some people liked the rework, some people hated it, doesn't matter. Valk Rez was straight up busted, tho. One rez after another, paired with an insane mobility. So the busted thing got nerfed and nerfed again. The ability is still there but in much more fair state. The fact that Mercy is considered as one of the weakest supports isn't because she's a weak hero in essence but because she's outclassed by other heroes in the support category rn. Judging by her kit she's supposed to be a "pocket" hero that is good in situations when you need to pair her with another hero (your Pharahs, your Ashes, Valk dmg boost visors, blades, etc.) Since those heroes that work well with Mercy are outclassed by other heroes it makes Mercy "one of the weakest" supports. Make necessary nerfs to certain heroes and you'll see her played more. But a busted thing is ought to be nerfed or straight up removed from the game no matter what. And immortality field is busted, unfun, unfair and not needed in overwatch.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (11 children)

It's how Blizzard designs heroes these days. They should be able to do basically everything. Damage while shielding, insane cc, great shield, Defense-matrix-like ability, massive burst+spam damage and a fantastic ult.

[–]RealExii 2 points3 points  (7 children)

They just make heroes extremely fun to play. This ends up making them disastrous to play against but I don't think this is a critical point in design philosophy of the overwatch team anymore. They're scared the heroes might end up like Torb/ Symm at release if they give them weaknesses.

[–]leapingshadow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Heroes definitely have weaknesses (besides Hanzo), it's just that in the context of 6v6 teamfights none of them are exploitable. Personally I think tank's die too quickly without cooldowns and do too much damage, certain supports do too much damage, and most damage dealers are fine with the exception of Snipers.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I think that's a false dichotomy. Heroes can be extremely fun to play, while still having clear weaknesses. Heroes like Reinhardt, Winston, Genji, Ana, Hammond etc are all very fun to play, but still have clear weaknesses.

[–]RealExii 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Yeah I think their idea is to release them powerful and then tune them down based on feedback, but what ends up happening is since everyone is enjoying the newly realeased hero who is not trash, there isn't enough nagative feedback during that time. It only becomes apparent when everyone is used to them and the hype is gone. I've noticed this exact same trend since the release of Doomfist.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It's true... And then you've got Ashe, who just stands out as perfectly fine-tuned on release. It's confusing.

[–]leapingshadow -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I dunno, Ashe was literally the only hero in the OWL to never be played. She had no role until barriers became breakable and B.O.B as a result wasn't utter garbage.

Imo B.O.B still is pretty bad and should have an option to be stopped.

[–]CloveFanPraying for a good Sombra rework — 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That’s not because Ashe is weak, it’s because every hero she’s competing with (Widow, Hanzo, McCree) are overtuned. Ashe should be the benchmark going forward imo.

[–]leapingshadow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, I think Ashe, Soldier and Reinhardt are the pillars Blizzard should stand by.

[–]Wackomanic -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I say just take the stun off of Accretion, and increase it's CD to 12. Accretion patches a lot of the weaknesses that his kit has. I feel it wouldn't make him feel as clunky as some of the other suggestions I've seen.

[–]dpsgod42069 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

true

[–]Lifeskillz34 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

No......you see the rock form.....dodge it.....

[–]speakeasyowCurrent hate sponge — -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This is ideal. It will allow them to tweak sigma in a different direction of being the brig of tanks

[–]pirate135246 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

sigma's shield should work like the old sym shield, bam fixed the hero

[–]SoccerStar9001OrisaBrigitte — 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly, Sigma shield made me realize all the buff I wanted for Sym shield would be quite OP and annoying.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A good thing they increased the effectiveness of armor and increased his effectiveness against booping then, huh?