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The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men.
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submitted 4 years ago by [deleted]
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[–][deleted] 4 years ago (4 children)
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[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (2 children)
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[–]haywire 85 points86 points87 points 4 years ago* (3 children)
from girls who demonize manipulation
I more take issue with it because manipulation is firstly fundamentally dishonest (and honesty is core to who I am), and secondly because it's a dark path and if you get used to doing it, can lead to abuse.
It's perfectly easy to get with a pretty and interesting girl if you are confident and open minded and easy going, and do so on your own terms, too. Smoking and drinking helps, too, but I'd prefer to suck up the physical damage of those things than the mental damage of being dishonest.
Lastly, it would seem intellectually wrong to think of ourselves (men) as these beings that are complex and capable of taking our lives into our own hands, and then talking about women like they are some general mass of animals that just follow evolutionary trends. They too are capable of doing their own thing - some don't even want kids, are asexual, bisexual, honest, dishonest, driven, manipulative, loving, caring, abused...whatever. Generalising is tricky - I understand that on one hand it's important to try and see patterns in human behaviour, however you have to remember that everyone is an individual.
[–]rpcrazy 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (0 children)
You don't get many objective "from all angles" opinions like these anymore on reddit...i'm following you now. Thank you for your contribution to the internet
[–]daykid 13 points14 points15 points 3 years ago (0 children)
I like to reread the posts in the sidebar every other week or so, and I always like to come back to this post, and this comment in particular. I often go through RP articles and discussion reading a lot of comments that generalize women. I understand that generalizations are useful, but I feel like everyone here gets swept up in some type of 'males are superior, women are inferior' attitude.
For me, your comment always brings me back to a good mindset from which to read about and consider the discussions we have here. Yeah, feminism is a bitch. Some women are psycho and controlling. That doesn't mean that we, as men, have to become completely bitter and unreasonable about it.
I realize that I'm going NAWALT here to a degree, but it helps to keep me from losing focus. Understanding that women are individuals and have the ability to disregard female behavior patterns is important. The mods do a good job, but I still feel like as this sub grows, we're going to lose sight of that, only to suffer as a result.
[–][deleted] 4 years ago (25 children)
[–]Edgar_Allan_Rich 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (3 children)
That's cool. How about a beer then?
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children)
Don't mind if I do.
[–]Can_I_Lick_Ur_Bootay[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (1 child)
Would you like to grab some sandwiches or something some time on me?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children)
I'm always open to meeting new people. Hehe.
[–]ThumoticJonFrost25 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (8 children)
Actually, two of the best contemporary writers on masculinity/red pill issues are gay men - Donovan and Palahniuk. Gay guys have a particular interest in understanding and defining masculinity, because they can't make up for their confusion by banging a bunch of chicks and calling it a day, the way most of us straight guys do.
[–][deleted] 4 years ago (7 children)
[–]crateNburro 34 points35 points36 points 4 years ago (0 children)
I was wondering if I was the only person with your reaction. The narrative above seems like something that might have resonated with me in college, but looks immature to me now. Just came to say I got the same impression that you did
A lot of people in this forum are young dudes who JUST figured out female psychology. ;)
[+]ThumoticJonFrost25 comment score below threshold-16 points-15 points-14 points 4 years ago (4 children)
The Red Pill is so much more than Game. It's about a renaissance of masculinity. Banging a bunch of chicks is often the first step that a man takes in that direction - and a lot of men, myself included, continue to bang a lot of chicks even as they continue their search - but it's all much deeper.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children)
Well... I might go back to this, maybe as a gay men I've been over this - at least the part were I need to talk about it with a lot of people. The main reason I left was the superficiality, anyways, are there any works by Donovan and Palahniuk you'd recommend?
[–]M3nt0R 11 points12 points13 points 3 years ago (1 child)
If banging a bunch of chicks makes someone manly, then banging dudes must make you extra manly :P
In all honesty, though, I'm not really following this subreddit. I just saw a link to it, tried to make sense of it, but I just see a lot of upset young people (I'm 23 and graduating college and even now this doesn't appeal to me).
It's like it's wrong to be able to enjoy the company of a woman whom you don't own or feel superior to? We've lost our identity? No, our identity has changed from being the sole providers to sharing the responsibilities with the other gender, as if that was a bad thing.
Feminism had nothing to do with that, this goes back even to WWII where American men were shipped out by the thousands and women had to fill their roles in the factories. Men thought women wouldn't be able to do 'a man's job' when in reality they did pretty damn good in replacing the role of men in society as the men went off to fight and die in large numbers.
That and a shitty economy that makes it almost necessary for both partners in a relationship to work in order to live a relatively comfortable lifestyle are in part what shape the gender roles.
I'm sure Obama's wife has done a lot for him, and that's why he thanks her. She's a smart woman who is very accomplished and intelligent, and I'm more than certain she's been a great source of support for him, and that's why he acknowledges her importance. She's a very involved first lady, not just one who sits back and looks pretty and acts as a socialite or celebrity because of her position. Michele Obama actually uses her status as First lady to do shit in this country.
So I guess what I'm saying is even as a straight male, I'm with you here. I don't really understand this subreddit the way it's meant to be understood. I get what they're trying to do, but I don't really see it as a necessity or necessarily agree with it.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children)
Brilliantly stated.
[–]ThumoticJonFrost25 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children)
Way Of Men by Donovan Fight Club by Palahniuk
[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (10 children)
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[–]tyciol 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children)
a colleague I've just met show me a video where he was fucking a prostitute.
That's so strange-seeming it almost makes me wonder if someone would show that to you to get your horny? Kind of like if 2 guys are watching TV, whatever the first guy to suggest watching porn together is thinking.
Wouldn't be possible that if it's necessary to go trough all this to get a girl - is she really worth it?
A good issue to bring up. There's going to be balance between 'game' and genuinely getting to know someone, after all. Presumably after initial interest is built and you begin bonding a bit, you can learn more about such details and see if there's long-term potential?
Wouldn't it be possible to simply skip this shit and ignore these kind of ladies?
Possibly in the more absurd cases, sure (I agree being asked to buy someone a drink is a turnoff) but probably not in the subtler cases because not all tactics are apparent for what they are.
"Wouldn't it be possible to simply skip this shit and ignore these kind of ladies? "
Yes but most guys, for lack of creative ability or lack of interesting things they are doing in their life, are stuck going to bars and finding people who end up thinking just as highly of them when it's all said and done.
[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (5 children)
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children)
I really would like to do some research about gay couples.
I've followed real close a few 'divorces' where none of the parts asked for anything but their fair share of the deal.
IDK. Maybe this kind of drama will be seen within the gay community as gay marriage laws becomes more widespread.
Thanks for the link - it's an interesting take on the matter.
[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (1 child)
[–]squarehouse -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children)
The red pill is primarily about the feminine imperative. But I think gay relationships, both short-term and long-term, really gives you a sense of how different women are. Gays have to deal with bullshit, just like anyone else, but I doubt you see things like hypergamy...are gay guys really marrying up? My opinion: Gay guys aren't actually fundamentally all that different than straight guys, and gay guys literally are looking for personal compatibility, affection, the cure to loneliness, and great sex. In many ways, you're lucky, because women will drive you crazy if you let them.
[–]TRP Vanguardlegendofpasta 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children)
Exhibit beta attributes in front of any woman and see how long it'll last.
Answer: until an alpha shows some attention, or the beta vibe just pushes her away
[–]shitakefunshrooms -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children)
jack donovan is gay, and he's probably one of the most prolific red pill guys out there
[–]tyciol -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (0 children)
Preferring men doesn't mean you're not welcome to understand the issues heterosexual men face bro ;) Plus there does tend to be overlap in a lot of issues, and conceptual similarities.
I mean... homosexuality has game theory too. It's just probably a little bit less complicated in some areas while being more complex in others.
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[–]squarehouse 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (10 children)
One thing we should be careful of, in my opinion, is distinguishing between feminism and the feminine imperative. Feminism is a relatively new social and political movement; the feminine imperative is as old as time.
The idea that sex should only exist in a committed relationship doesn't come from feminism, it comes from the feminine imperative.
The glorification of single mothers as heroes, and not as women merely struggling to fulfill their responsibilities doesn't come from feminism, it comes from the feminine imperative.
When I think about the feminine imperative and it's influence on society, I think of shows like Oprah and The View (and Dr. Phil). These shows aren't really feminist, because feminism is really about certain social and political issues, whereas the feminine imperative defines an entire point of view.
And to be honest, I don't even like Mens Rights. Mens Rights is just inverse feminism, they adopt the feminist ideology and reverse it to favor men. They don't really see the feminine imperative, and that ignorance I think hurts their cause.
[+][deleted] 4 years ago* (9 children)
[–]squarehouse -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (7 children)
Yeah. I'm not defending feminism, it just seems superficial compared to the feminine imperative. In some ways feminism is the overt social structure of the feminine imperative after the wake of widely available birth control (birth control is basically the essence of feminism, IMO).
But in other ways, I think of feminism is being primarily against women, against normal, traditional, feminine women. You could call it the resentment of women who can't or refuse to have children, against those who do. For instance, the feminist definition of rape is the demonization of female sexuality more than it is of men. Feminists demand nothing less than enthusiastic consent for intercourse to occur, anything else is rape. Yet, to be taken, possessed, thrown down, controlled and man-handled, this is not just a preference that many women have, but a requirement. Women want to be dominated and mastered, and anything less produces a great deal of deep ill-will and discontent with them.
Have the feeling that feminists become hypocrites in the bedroom.
[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (6 children)
[–]squarehouse -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (5 children)
Yeah. But especially look at creep shaming in terms of preselection, as it's essentially negative preselection. The worst words you want to hear from an HB: "Don't touch me."
The thing is, women seem to understand preselection better than men do. Women I know who show interest, only do so discretely, they don't want you gaining advantage from their show of interest.
Guys who pull out the enthusiastic consent fear before having sex will rightly be labeled beta and kept in orbiter status for later when she needs a daddy.
Yep. It's a load of shit. Alpha's, by definition, aren't practical feminists. Neither are feminists for that matter.
[–]squarehouse 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child)
What does creep shaming have to do with feminism though?
[–]tyciol -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child)
The worst words you want to hear from an HB: "Don't touch me."
Doesn't this tend to come up if someone touches them without permission, though?
I guess the flip side though is that touching without explicit verbal permissions is an accepted part of the flirtation process with alphas.
Guys who aren't explicitly alpha or beta (unsure of status in relation to a prospect) may lack cues on whether or not touch would be desired/permitted.
[–]squarehouse -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (0 children)
You don't need permission to touch somebody. Learn kino. In fact, feeling like you need permission is a beta-signal.
touching without explicit verbal permissions is an accepted part of the flirtation process with alphas.
I don't think this has anything to do with "being alpha". Honestly, the way you're talking, it sounds like you might be a victim of love-shyness, social isolation, sexual repression, or just anxiety about being creep-shamed.
You don't need "explicit verbal permission" to touch someone, just like you don't need "explicit verbal permission" to talk to someone, or shake someone's hand. Touching women on the arms, hands, shoulders, or even back, or wrapping your arms around a woman's waist should just be something you naturally do. This is more a matter of calibration than anything else. Do a search on /r/seduction for "calibration" and look at what you come up with.
may lack cues on whether or not touch would be desired/permitted.
There's an important concept I wanted to bring up here, but I have a hard time articulating it in a fashion that makes sense to people reading. But here's my attempt:
Consider the distinction between "law-maker" and "law-follower". Here you're trying to determine whether or not touch is desired/permitted from the woman, so you're basically trying to determine what the law is or what the rules are. You're assuming that she already has it in her head what you are or are not allowed to do.
An alpha isn't someone who picks up the cues on what is allowed or not allowed; rather, an alpha is someone who determines what is or isn't allowed. The alpha is the law-maker, not the law-follower; he follows Grace Hopper in that "it's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission". He touches women when he wants to because he has a fundamental sense of entitlement.
With women, if you have to ask, the answer is always no. If she likes you, she secretly wants you to go further with her than she would allow.
[–]TRP Vanguardlegendofpasta -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children)
This might be the most important post on this whole subreddit.
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (5 children)
The hatred of "game" and places like /r/seduction stems from a fear of control being shifted. Anything that suggest a man can choose who he wants to have sex with and under what terms is seen as evil. I thought it was funny when people started saying things like /r/seduction is a form a manipulation and that somehow the women that choose to sleep with guys were doing so against their own conscious will.
[–]kencabbit 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (1 child)
Anything that suggest a man can choose who he wants to have sex with and under what terms is seen as evil.
Yeah, I'm sorry but this isn't true. I just surfed here and I have no animosity for people who want to "game" their interactions with women, but as somebody who has never been a player, so to speak, I can tell you that this is absolutely not the sole source of animosity toward this kind of stuff.
You talk like you have to "game" in order to "choose" your sexual partners, which to me is somewhat obvious bullshit.
A lot of the hatred of "game" probably comes from misunderstanding. I prefer to relate honestly with my romantic partners, as do many people, and many will consider treating those relationships as a game to be an endeavor in dishonesty.
edit: I won't be engaging in discussion about this, and won't be replying and creating a comment thread here. I just wanted to call bullshit on this one and move on. Take it or leave it.
[–]tyciol -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children)
Is it possible that other means of choosing sexual partners are things you don't class under game, but which are things others might class under game?
Can you give examples of alternatives to seeking partners you say are non-game?
[–]shitakefunshrooms 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (2 children)
People focus too much on getting mainstream acceptance. In your post you identify perfectly whats wrong with MSM (jezebel et al being the worst offenders) but the reality is it does not matter. What people bitch about and what they respond to, will always be different.
Don't look to be loved, look to be lusted. Care about your own shit first and foremost, help who you want and leave who you don't.
I'm not really writing this to you, but to all the other men who spend so much countless hours worrying about the unfairness rather than acknowledging it and moving on.
A key part of this is intense self-reliance and a HEAT like mentality to support and affection (In the film heat Deniro says never have anything in your life you can't walk out on in 30 seconds flat when the heat comes round the corner. To a less intense extent, it's extremely apt).
If you can be on your own and go for things from a position of strength paradoxically more and more people flock to you. Whereas most of the nice needy guys who really require that kind of support, care and affection will turn off every woman they even try to approach.
This sort of changes depending on how feminised the environment is that you're living in.
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (0 children)
First time in here. Tryin to get a feel for the area. Sounds like it's along my line of thinking.
π Rendered by PID 129461 on app-458 at 2017-04-19 16:59:32.012284+00:00 running 59f6cd5 country code: US.
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