The United Nations Human Rights Council has recently released a report on the war involving Israel and Gaza last year. The summary in the press release is that there are “credible allegations” of war crimes by both “Israel and Palestinian armed groups”.
In the coming days and weeks, there will be plenty of analysis and commentary on the report, it’s significance, the context and so on. I will probably comment on the fallout of the report too. In this article, I’m just going to comment on the report itself. My view is that the report is a very weak document, which meekly qualifies and hedges every allegation against Israel, and avoids reaching any strong conclusions.
As a report based on 11 months work, it is also singularly unimpressive. The Goldstone mission was established by the HRC in April 2009, and released its report in September 2009. The McGowan-Davis commission was created in July 2014. It released its report in June. The Goldstone Report is 452 pages, and is based on a first-hand study of Gaza, public hearings, and the review of a vast body of literature, including numerous reports by human rights organisations, creating a vast, if non-exhaustive overview of human rights violations in the 22 days, as well as human rights violations more generally by the Israeli government and Palestinian groups.
Admittedly, the Goldstone mission had four members: the McGowan-Davis commission had only two after William Schabbas pulled out, leaving her and Doudou Diène. The McGowan Davis report is only 183 pages, despite covering a war that lasted twice as long. The commission “conducted more than 280 interviews with victims and witnesses and received more than 500 written submissions”, and reviewed other publicly available sources. The result of this research is underwhelming.
The Goldstone mission was able to visit Gaza through Rafah, because of cooperation from the Mubarak regime. However, Israel barred it from visiting the West Bank or Israel. This commission was similarly prevented from visiting the West Bank or Israel by the Israeli government. However, in a new development, the Egyptian government, now under a new tyrant, prevented the commission from making it into Gaza. The closest it came to the conflict was two trips to Amman in Jordan. Even the puppet Hashemite monarchy of Jordan shows more independence and compassion for the Palestinians than the Sisi dictatorship.
The report can be accessed from this page. It also features some infographics, and satellite images of the destruction in Gaza City, Shuja’iya, and Khuzza’a. The satellite images aren’t new, but are terrible, and show some of the immense destruction Israel unleashed on Gaza. Many satellite images and pictures of the destruction are available online, and are more worthwhile guides to the destruction than this report.
The non-cooperation from the Israeli government also showed in this report. In 2009, the Goldstone Report carefully investigated dozens of incidents, contrasting the official claims of the Israeli government with on the ground refutations of what happened. The commission did no such thing. There were no smoking guns, and only in a handful of cases does the report even suggest that its evidence refutes the claims of the Israeli government.
Mostly, it notes that the Israeli government has not accounted for what happened, and, requests further information from Israel, lamenting its lack of cooperation. The report (Paragraph 681 – all references in brackets will be to paragraphs in the report) cheerfully calls on Israel to cooperate with human rights bodies such as itself in the future, investing great optimism in the Israeli government showing greater respect for international law and human rights in the future.
The commission, like the Goldstone mission, fails to investigate whether Israel’s resort to the use of force was legal. Like the Goldstone report, it sets out the context. However, as a less serious report, it does so far more briefly (53-8). It notes that the fighting “erupted in the context of the protracted occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, and of the increasing number of rocket attacks on Israel.”
It also condemns the blockade (54), noting
“The blockade of Gaza by Israel, fully implemented since 2007 and described by the Secretary-General as “a continuing collective penalty against the population in Gaza” (A/HRC/28/45, para. 70), was strangling the economy in Gaza and imposed severe restrictions on the rights of the Palestinians… Palestinians have demonstrated extraordinary resilience in recent years, living in an environment scarred by physical destruction and psychological trauma. In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, settlement-related activities and settler violence continued to be at the core of most of the human rights violations against Palestinians. In the absence of any progress on the political front, the risk of a flare-up of the situation was evident.”
Compare this to the Goldstone Report, which set out human rights violations in the occupied territories (and even in Israel) at far greater length, and also documented at length the effects of the blockade, which it argued could be a “crime against humanity”.
This commission didn’t find any crimes against humanity, and only seems to have found one war crime which it unequivocally recognised as a war crime (501-2): the extra-judicial execution of alleged Palestinian collaborators by other Palestinians. “Whoever is responsible”, the report says, “must be brought to justice.” All the other war crimes are expressed in hedged terms. For example, that if something is the case, and is proven, then it may amount to a war crime.
Because the report conducted no first-hand investigations, there is essentially nothing new in the report. In the first 52 paragraphs, it sets out the mandate, its methodology, and the framework of international law. From paragraphs 59-502, it looks at Israel and Gaza, and from 503-550 it looks at the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It “selected incidents” on “the basis of certain criteria”, meaning that the chronicle of human rights violations is not intended to be comprehensive. The coverage of the West Bank is essentially devoted to human rights violation during the fighting, without attempting to provide an overview of broader human rights violations as part of the occupation.
Most of the report is about Israel’s attack on Gaza. The section on Israel and Gaza takes up paragraphs 59-502, out of 685 paragraphs. Paragraphs 59-103 look at rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel. Though acknowledging (60) that the military wing of Hamas claimed it would “focus on military or semi-military targets and to avoid other targets, especially civilians”, and similar declarations, it also notes evidence of public admissions that they were targeting civilian areas with rockets (90). Israel says 4,500 projectiles were fired at Israel, whilst the UN interestingly had a higher figure of “4,881 rockets and 1,753 mortars”.
The commission interestingly analyses warnings given by Hamas, and weighs these up against the standards of international law. Whilst acknowledging they had limited means for reaching the Israeli public (95), the commission observes that issuing a warning doesn’t absolve a party from its obligations to avoiding civilian suffering (96).
The Goldstone Report observed that Palestinian Bedouins in Israel lived in villages that Israel didn’t recognise, and so no shelters or early warning systems have been built for them. In the last six years, this hasn’t changed. On 19 July (69), Hamas fired a rocket that killed a Bedouin and injured 3 others in the settlement of Kaser Al-Ser. Though it was recognised by Israel in 1999, its “infrastructure remains rudimentary and it is threatened by demolition. According to Amnesty International, the family did not receive compensation from the authorities after the attack because the victim’s home was due to be demolished anyway.”
Next, the commission looks at the tunnels from Gaza. The Israeli army claims to have found 32, “14 of which extended beyond the Green Line into Israel” (105). The report claims (106) that this caused “great anxiety” for Israelis, as “the tunnels might be used to attack civilians”. The report notes (108) that “the tunnels were only used to conduct attacks directed at IDF positions in Israel in the vicinity of the Green Line, which are legitimate military targets.” Five more references to “anxiety” in the report all also refer to Israelis, 581 of whom reportedly had anxiety attacks during the attack.
Most references to “fear” in the report also refer to Israelis, though some references are made of Palestinian fears (104, 202, 305-6) of being killed, not having sanctuary from the bombing, and fear of Hamas authorities retaliating against its critics, such as in relation to executions of collaborators (499). Evidently, the commission found it harder to understand how Palestinians felt, or simply thought it too trivial to investigate.
Then there is the analysis of the attack on Gaza (110-465). There is a section on the bombing on residential homes (110-224). This has already been done, and done better by Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem. There is a useful table (214) summarising the commission’s findings:
That’s a total of 216, of whom 115 were children and 50 were women.
The report notes (111) that Israel carried out “more than 6,000 airstrikes in Gaza” during the conflict. In one incident, Israel bombed a home, completely destroying it and damaging adjacent buildings. The attack (153-4) “killed 15 members of the Abu Amr family, 7 members of the Breikah family, 7 members of the Al-Najjar family, and 4 of the Mu’ammar family.” That is, Israeli bombing killed entire families at a time. Mostly, the investigations are superficial, and no strong conclusions are ever drawn from the factual patterns discovered by the commission.
Like the Goldstone Report, the commission found instances of Israeli military leaders admitting they would bomb civilian targets, but failed to draw any conclusions from these admissions (207, 212). It also notes the bombing of four large buildings at the end of the war (210-2). With all this death and destruction, it winds up with conclusions (220-30) no stronger than “strong indications that these attacks could be disproportionate, and therefore amount to a war crime”, “Should attacks have been directed against buildings that did not constitute a military objective this may amount to a war crime”, “Attacks, which used this type of weapon in densely populated, built up areas of Gaza, are therefore likely to constitute a violation of the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks”, and “strong indications that the IDF failed in its obligations to take all feasible measures to avoid or at least to minimize incidental harm to civilians.” Or “may have breached its obligations to take all feasible measures to avoid or at least to minimize incidental harm to civilians.”
And attacks which killed numerous children to neutralise “a purported member of an armed group… could be deemed disproportionate.” Unless “the anticipated military advantage” would have made those deaths “not excessive”.
The report then looks at ground attacks, and their effect on Shuja’iya (twice), Rafah, and Khuza’a. It features accounts of Palestinians being used as human shields by Israeli soldiers(321-3). For example
“His son was forced to undertake “risky tasks such as opening doors, inspecting rooms, switching the lights on and off to test whether secret explosives were being connected to the light switches, open fridges and other devices that may have detonated explosions.” The boy was also forced to look for tunnels in basements and to sleep with the soldiers at the checkpoint. The soldiers also threatened to unleash their dog on him and forced him to dig for tunnels.”
Or this:
“The men were naked with black plastic bags over their heads, handcuffed and positioned in front of the windows facing outwards. The soldiers then started shooting from behind the naked men, using them as human shields. This went on from about 1.30 to 6 pm.”
The Israeli army showed its traditional respect for Palestinian dignity (325), when 10 soldiers forced their way into a Palestinian house. The
“Soldiers handcuffed his son who has a mental disability. The soldiers subsequently put a casserole on the boy’s head and four of them started kicking and punching him. Then one of the soldiers began shooting between the legs of the boy. After a while, they took him away. When the witness asked the soldier to leave his son alone, the soldier apparently responded by saying, ‘shut up or we will take you.’”
The report’s strongest denunciations come in discussion of the destruction in relation to the ground offensives. The report notes (408) the sheer amount of firepower directed at Gaza:
“14,500 tank shells and approximately 35,000 artillery shells were fired. Haaretz quoted IDF information indicating that, before the end of July, after three weeks of fighting, 30,000 shells had been discharged, “four times as much as in Cast Lead in 2008”. The NGO “Action on Armed violence” (AOAV) observes that, while in Operation Cast Lead in 2008, 3000 high-explosive artillery shells were fired, in 2014 there were 19,000, a 533 per cent increase. Based on figures suggesting that over the course of 2014’s 50-day operation, a daily average of 680 artillery shells were fired in Gaza by the IDF (compared to 348 per day in the 2008-09 operation)…”
The report concluded that “the use of weapons with wide-area effects by the IDF in the densely populated, built up areas of Gaza, and the significant likelihood of lethal indiscriminate effects resulting from such weapons, are highly likely to constitute a violation of the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks.” And, because there can never be too much hedging, if there were certain “circumstances, such use may qualify as a direct attack against civilians, and may therefore amount to a war crime.”
The report observes that (418)
“the vast scale of destruction may have been adopted as tactics of war. While the protection of IDF soldiers and the destruction of tunnels may have played a legitimate role in this, nonetheless the concentration of the destruction in areas close to the Green Line (which, in some places, amounted to up to 100 per cent); and the systematic way in which it appears to have been implemented subsequently in Beit Hanoun on 18-19 July, Shuja’iya on 20 and 21 July, and Khuza’a between 20 July and 1 August suggest that the IDF followed a pre-calculated pattern of wide-spread razing of neighbourhoods in certain areas.”
A suitably hedged conclusion is drawn: “the razing of entire areas of these localities by artillery fire, air strikes and bulldozers indicates that the IDF carried out destructions that may not have been strictly required by military necessity.” Thus, “The wholesale levelling of certain areas of Gaza by the IDF, should it qualify as “unlawful” and “wanton”, may amount to a war crime.”
The Goldstone Report discussed at length Israeli officials committing to a policy of causing massive death and destruction to civilian areas, and connecting this to Israel’s military conduct. The new commission does no such thing, and mostly ignores damning material on Israel’s conduct, in particular, the Breaking the Silence report which compiled testimonies by Israeli soldiers about war crimes in Gaza.
The report (420) also examined “two incidents, in which civilians, including children, allegedly carrying white flags were fired upon by soldiers”. In one incident, a man holding a “white flag with one hand and his other hand was raised to show the soldiers that he was unarmed.
He reportedly spoke to the soldiers in Hebrew, telling them that they were all civilians. Mohamed Tawfiq Qdeih was approaching the soldiers and, when he was about two meters away, the soldiers shot him twice and killed him” (322). What conclusion should be drawn? “Directing attacks against civilians constitutes a violation of the principle of distinction and may amount to a war crime.” So even murdering civilians knowingly might be a war crime, or it might not, when the perpetrator is Israel.
The report then discusses other atrocities, like bombing UN shelters (eg 425, 430-1), or the four occasions (451) on which the only power plant in Gaza was bombed.
After observing that Israel has bombed it twice in the past, and that the Deputy Defence Minister of Israel called on Israel to cut off Gaza’s electricity supply at the start of the war, the report naturally observes that “it is unable to determine whether the power plant suffered incidental damage from an attack directed elsewhere, or whether it was the object of a deliberate attack.” However, it duly chastened Israel, which “appears not to have complied with its obligation to take all feasible precautions to avoid or at least to minimize incidental damage to civilian objects” (454-5)
The report notes that Israel bombed ambulances and medical personnel on “at least 24” occasions, and claimed that ambulances were being used by Palestinian fighters (461-2). The report politely notes that it is “unable to verify this claim”, and then writes “Some of the incidents above constitute a violation by the IDF of the prohibition of attacks on medical transports and medical personnel, and may amount to war crimes…” Because Israel indicated that it regarded ambulances as valid military targets, and repeatedly bombed them, and ambulances “enjoy special protection under international humanitarian law” and “are to be protected from attack under all circumstances”, who knows if war crimes were committed here?
As for Palestinians, the commission couldn’t tell if they fought near civilian and protected areas (478-9). It condemns the summary executions of at least 21 collaborators (494), and even worries about the “stigma” (499) that attaches to them and their families. The report expresses less interest or concern (507) about “a rise in extreme anti-Palestinian rhetoric by some Israelis, notably in social media, inciting revenge and hatred against Palestinians; as well as reported harassment; and sometimes, attacks on Palestinians and damage to businesses employing Palestinians.”
The report then examines the “impact” of the fighting. It rather boldly claims “Palestinians and Israelis were profoundly shaken by the events of the summer of 2014 and many witnesses described the trauma that resulted from the violence they experienced. In particular, children on both sides were savagely affected by the events.”
The report then (inadequately) chronicles the impact of the war on both sides. Israel, as it so often does, did its best to overstate the suffering and destruction it experienced. Thus (569), “4,550 claims for compensation for direct damages” were made. The “tax authority estimates that total compensation for direct damages will reach approximately USD $25 million (100 million NIS). Indirect damage is estimated at $440,000,000 USD (1.7 billion NIS).” That is, $25 million in damage from rockets fired at Israel, which indirectly caused $440 million damage.
No query is made of the methodology producing this result. No mention is made of the actual number of buildings damaged or destroyed in Israel by Palestinian rockets and mortars, which might shed some light on Israel estimates of the destruction and damage it suffered during the war.
In Gaza (574-89), “the scale of the devastation was unprecedented. The death toll alone speaks volumes: 2,251 Palestinians were killed, including 1,462 Palestinian civilians with 299 women and 551 children. 11,231 Palestinians, including 3,540 women and 3,436 children, were injured with almost 10 per cent suffering permanent disability as a result”.
Furthermore, “there was enormous destruction of civilian property in Gaza: 18,000 housing units were destroyed in whole or in part. According to the Office of the Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, an estimated 80,000 homes and properties need to be rehabilitated”. In May 2015, about 100,000 Gazans remain displaced.
Attacks on Gaza infrastructure “increased the pre-existing electricity deficit by almost 20 per cent, reaching about 65 per cent”. Israel also damaged “63 water facilities... and 23 [were] completely destroyed. Key sewage facilities were partially destroyed, including 60 per cent of the treatment plants, 27 per cent of the pumping stations, and 33,000 meters of water and wastewater networks were damaged”.
According to the World Bank, “unemployment in the Gaza Strip is now the highest in the world… Post-traumatic stress disorder and other stress-related symptoms have increased, and about 20 per cent of the population are estimated to be in need of long-term mental health assistance, among them at least 373,000 children”.
The report then summarises the impact (597-600). After noting the “enormous impact” on Palestinians and Israelis (!), it continues:
“The impact of the 2014 hostilities on the Gaza strip cannot be assessed separately from the blockade imposed by Israel. In particular, the destruction and damage brought about by the escalation of violence last summer pose significant challenges to the enjoyment of the rights to an adequate standard of living, housing, food, water, sanitation, health and education of the population of Gaza. The damage to electricity infrastructure, critical for power supply and a whole range of services, including health services, water and sanitation has been devastating for the enjoyment of human rights in the short, medium and long-term.”
The report then has a long section (607-51) discussing Israel’s internal mechanisms for investigating alleged war crimes. Amazingly, shamefully – and this is important, because it will be a major talking point for the Israeli government and its apologists – it notes:
“In recent years, Israel has taken significant steps aimed at bringing its system of investigations into compliance with international standards. The Turkel Commission, itself an initiative of the Government of Israel, has helped to give momentum to these efforts, and has provided concrete recommendations as to how to go about it, a number of which have already been implemented by Israel.”
B’Tselem and Yesh Din refuse (609) to cooperate with Israeli military investigations of human rights violations, due to their proven track record, and derisory investigations into the many complaints they have made over the years. After long, ridiculous waffling, the report finally (664) says:
“The commission is concerned that impunity prevails across the board for violations of international humanitarian and human rights law allegedly committed by Israeli forces, whether it be in the context of active hostilities in Gaza or killings, torture, and ill-treatment in the West Bank. Israel must break with its recent lamentable track record in holding wrong-doers accountable, not only as a means to secure justice for victims but also to ensure the necessary guarantees for non-repetition.”
It even approached something like passion – I suspect written by Diène – concluding (666) “Palestinian victims are systematically denied their right to effective remedies and reparation due to an array of obstacles. Victims – in some cases repeatedly suffering violations in recent years - have a right to know the truth and to receive restitution.”
Then there are concluding observations (668-75): “The commission was deeply moved by the immense suffering of Palestinian and Israeli victims, who have been subjected to repeated rounds of violence.” As readers might skip to conclusions, it is naturally important to stress that both sides have experienced “immense suffering”.
Unwilling to commit to any conclusions, the report explains that “The onus remains on Israel to provide sufficient details on its targeting decisions to allow an independent assessment of the legality of the attacks conducted by the Israel Defense Forces and to assist victims in their quest for the truth.” Working itself up to a strong conclusion, the report says:
“The commission’s investigations also raise the issue of why the Israeli authorities failed to revise their policies in Gaza and the West Bank during the period under review by the commission. Indeed, the fact that the political and military leadership did not change its course of action, despite considerable information regarding the massive degree of death and destruction in Gaza, raises questions about potential violations of international humanitarian law by these officials, which may amount to war crimes. Current accountability mechanisms may not be adequate to address this issue.”
Also,
“Questions arise regarding the role of senior officials who set military policy in several areas examined by the commission, such as in the attacks of the Israel Defense Forces on residential buildings; the use of artillery and other explosive weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated areas; the destruction of entire neighbourhoods in Gaza; and the regular resort to live ammunition by the Israel Defense Forces, notably in crowd-control situations, in the West Bank. In many cases, individual soldiers may have been following agreed military policy, but it may be that the policy itself violates the laws of war.”
So there you have it. There are “questions” about Israel destroying entire neighbourhoods, and bombing densely populated areas with immense firepower. “Israel must break with its recent lamentable track record in holding wrongdoers accountable”. The Palestinians get firmer criticism as they “consistently failed to ensure that perpetrators of violations” were stopped. The rocket fire “may amount to a war crime”.
In the recommendations (676-85), the report is brief, not wanting to “repeat” previous recommendations. It calls on Israel to review some of its military policy, “immediately and unconditionally” end the blockade on Gaza, cooperate with human rights investigators, sign the Rome Statute (to give the International Criminal Court jurisdiction), and change how it investigates human rights violations.
It urges both parties to “cooperate fully with the preliminary examination of the International Criminal Court and with any subsequent investigation that may be opened.” It also urges Israel to stop “all settlement-related activity”, and obey the International Court of Justice’s advisory opinion from 2004 on the West Bank wall.
The most significant recommendation to the international community is “To support actively the work of the International Criminal Court in relation to the Occupied Palestinian Territory; to exercise universal jurisdiction to try international crimes in national courts; and to comply with extradition requests pertaining to suspects of such crimes to countries where they would face a fair trial.”
Which probably won’t happen. After all the death and destruction, the Human Rights Council has produced an unbelievably mild and tame report on what Israel did, and is doing to Gaza. It probably won’t produce the political momentum necessary to put pressure on Israel. With all its qualifications and provisos – and the credit it unbelievably gives to Israel for its “significant steps” in improving its investigations of its military, despite its “recent lamentable track record” – Israel has gotten off pretty lightly.
It should be pleased that it was able to get Schabbas to resign from the commission.
On the other hand, these types of reports are rarely ever read by anyone. The take-away message will be similar to that of the Goldstone Report – that both sides stand accused of committing war crimes. The moderation of the report will make it harder for Western media to take seriously that it’s an anti-Israel diatribe, though one can never overestimate the cowardice of Western media.
Barak Ravid reported for Ha’aretz, “It’s hard to portray McGowan Davis as anti-Israel. A few years ago, when she headed a committee dealing with the implementation of the Goldstone report on Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, Israel decided not to boycott her and to cooperate with her on a limited basis. The report that McGowan Davis issued at the time was balanced; Jerusalem received it with satisfaction.”
This time Israel boycotted her, which was probably a tactical mistake from their point of view. Yet the International Criminal Court has only ever prosecuted Africans. The report stresses the need for effective accountability mechanisms to prevent the next round of hostilities. Yet its wishy-washy tone and general meekness make it unlikely anything of the sort will happen.
Just as Goldstone’s semi-retraction gave a green light for Israeli massacres in 2012 and 2014, so this lousy report, based on almost a year’s work, signally fails to give a red light to Israel.
Given the “scale of the devastation”, what can one say? The report is a despicable betrayal, and spits in the face of the Palestinians who hoped their testimonies would be treated with compassion by the UN.
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MJoanneS
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 16:22
Thank you Michael. The increasingly irrelevant Ken Roth was first cab out of the rank with his ''both sides committed war crimes'' nonsense as if the destitute, starved mostly unarmed and occupied Palestinians slaughtered 2,500 Israeli's as well as the other way around.
There is no law in the world that says it is legal for Israel to attack the people in territory they illegally occupy and no law in the world that states the victims must never fight back, except in the west who refuse to see the facts and the rules of the laws of war.
Saying the Palestinians committed war crimes by defending themselves is as ridiculous as claiming the Iraqis did for defending themselves against our illegal attack and invasion.
Tinkerbell
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 17:20
I read this "report" with increasing horror. Surely the Jews, who suffered a terrible holocaust at the hands of the Germans, then prove to the world time and time again that they are no better than the Germans.
It convinces me that all religions use religion as an excuse to kill and destroy indiscriminally. And what is also obvious is that America is the world's biggest abuser and it is never sated by the suffering of those who feel the strength of its military forces supplied by the Yanks.
Given this situation, the world cannot avoid nuclear war and human extinction. When the nukes start falling, justice will be served up in giant pieces and humans will be seen as what they are: the lowest form of life on Earth!
EarnestLee
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 18:06
Too right Tinkerbell.
The common man knows that targeting children is a crime and against Gods Law whatever Religion you belong to. If Jews do not get it, then they defy the ten commandments that "their" God gave Moses.
In my opinion the State of Israel is on borrowed time. Pity is that so many innocents will be collateral.
It is obvious the IDF is a Terrorist Organisation. Unless the United Nations General Assembly declares it so the UN will loose credibility with the common man.
The World has reached a crisis point. It may well be flood time.
macida
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 19:25
A Travesty. Any idea we might have that the UN can mediate and bring justice for Palestinians and for Gaza is now destroyed, and the role that our own media play in facilitating Israel's brutality and ethnic cleansing is almost as culpable as those 'human rights' bodies in this true 'holocaust'. Part of the reason for that is that we never get to see the real faces and bodies of the Palestinian victims, unless, most ironically, we watch AL Jazeera.
After Cast Lead a Canadian film producer made 'Tears of Gaza' - and if anyone wants to actually know what it FELT like to be in Gaza then they need to watch it - if you can find it. It put all the horrific still photos we saw from that attack into life, as extracts from videos, plus the sound.
Thanks Michael for speaking out on this 'war crimes on both sides'.. Since when was it a war crime to defend yourself against a violent attack when you can't escape?
Lynne Newington
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 19:38
Weak UN report exactly, taking into account Hamas were using the Palestinians as shields, firing rockets [without forewarning] from UN facilities, hospitals, schools, hospitals and Mosques which they now admit to.
Shimona from th...
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 19:58
Tinkerbell: Anyone making this obscene and ridiculous comparison between "the Jews" (don't you mean "the Zionists"? Your mask is slipping, dearie) and Nazi Germany is going to have to work pretty hard to prove they are not, in fact, an antisemite.
Were "the Jews" concealing rockets amidst a civilian population, and then firing them on the German civilian population? Were "the Jews" digging terror tunnels into Nazi Germany in order to carry out attacks against German civilians?
MJoanneS
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 20:17
Lynne brings out the lazy strawpeople. All of Gaza is civilian, all of Israel is IDF as every person in Israel has to join the IDF or have families that have joined the IDF.
talknic
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 21:39
Say, when will Israel release the pictures of Israeli children torn to shreds, whole Israeli suburbs devastated?
Although it might have given forewarning, Israel had all the crossings closed under the Israel / Egypt Peace Treaty and under the 2005 agreement with Egypt, (only possible to have such an agreement as an Occupying Power), thereby preventing civilians from fleeing a war zone, BEFORE attacking, which is illegal under Geneva Convention 1V…Section II..Occupied territories..Art49…The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians could not even flee into the sea, because Israel controls the Palestinian territorial waters.
Egypt is NOT The Occupying Power, Israel is UNSC Res 1860 only the Occupying Power can have all crossings closed to and from Occupied Territories
Furthermore, under the Laws of War, Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited. The Palestinians have absolutely no defense agains Israel's war ships, guided missiles, artillery, helicopter gunships, war planes and their missiles, rockets and bombs.
talknic
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 21:44
Lynne Newington
Weak UN report exactly, taking into account Hamas were using the Palestinians as shields, firing rockets [without forewarning] from UN facilities, hospitals, schools, hospitals and Mosques which they now admit to.
- See more at: https://newmatilda.com/2015/07/05/weak-un-report-gaza-slaughter-betrayal-palestinians#comment-108888
@ Lynne Newington "Hamas were using the Palestinians as shields"
Hamas are Palestinians. They don't simply fall out of the sky aand if you think they purposefully endanger their own family members you have rocks in your head
"firing rockets [without forewarning] from UN facilities, hospitals, schools, hospitals and Mosques which they now admit to"
It's not illegal to use unused civilian facilities. Israel has been warned for decades BTW
This user is a New Matilda supporter. swarmi
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 22:04
Thanks Michael for a good summary of a report that damns itself by being ineffectual. I've never expected anything more from the UN.
Zionist Israel is another step closer to achieving its own holocaust. It has taken the land of the Palestinians except for the leaving of the concentration camp Gaza. It has helped de-stabilize the Middle East for the greater good of the US and its own strategic expansionist ambitions. It's goal is to be top dog (attack dog) in the ME and, with the help of virtually all the world governments, is well placed to see this happen. The cost in human life and humam misery is not even a secondary consideration - it is not considered at all.
This is the world we all live in. What a useless existence it has become.
Stary
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 22:33
Hi Michael, well done! You have succeded in creating a biased opinion about the Israel - Gaza war. Children photos which are terrifying do their job. But where is the graphic photos from the other side? Seems like you don't have an interest in seing the other side. I don't have gruesome images of my friend's son who was burnt alive in the bus attacked by a suicide bomber. I worked as a nurse in Israeli hospital ( by the way looking after Jews and Arabs in the same manner) for 10 years. Sorry for not posting on facebook photos of people who arrive to hospital with missing limbs or guts hanging outside their stomach. I remember one of my dialysis patients who went to have an ultrasound of his peritoneal catheter and was blown up by a Palestinian terrorist. The only way to identify the patient was by identifing the catheter. It happened in the centre of Israel, not in the "occupied" territories, after Israel withdrew from Gaza. Of course you will blame Israel for a disproportionate response but can you tell what this proportion means? Determine the proportion using members of your family. So my advice-try to see both sides before you blame one. Good luck!
RIP for all the innocent victims on both sides and hope that one day people will stop killing each other.
Lynne Newington
Posted Sunday, July 5, 2015 - 22:38
#talknic. Hamas are militant Palestinians, the sooner they get rid of them the sooner there will be peace.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Rychard
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 01:33
Stary... You worked (you tell us) in an Israeli hospital (in Israel, but NOT in Gaza) and saw the victims of perhaps, a suicide bomber or two. Some years ago from your own account... and still you seek to find "equivalence", even though I wonder if you ever sought to understand what it is that drives somebody to blow themselves up and take others with them. Perhaps you should take a lesson from Miko Peled and think about it..
Multiply that horror by a couple of thousand, add in the effects of DIME, flechettes, phosphorus, sniper rounds to the head, HE in a thoroughly starved, debilitated and largely civilian population, cowering amidst the ruins of their homes and communities, and you might get a better idea. Hamas does not have anything like Israel's massive offensive, destructive capability. Much of if paid for by US taxpayers. Hamas missile are mere pinpricks. A very few injuries, more own goals amongst the IOF and many people nervously cowering in their high tech shelters, in their homes, in their towns and cities ALL built on the ruins of destroyed Palestinian homes and villages, on stolen Palestinians land. Hard to find sympathy for them.
Contrast that with the people in Gaza, all got blown up in the their homes, too, in the middle of their "communities", if piles of rubble from past destruction can be called such. Very few shelters for them and even then, when they were sheltering in schools, they were successfully targeted by the sophisticated high-tech IOF artillery .. Hard to identify them too.. Very little chance they would have PD catheters in situ... Very few resources available for such luxuries, due to the barbarous seige the most moral army in the world are laying against the world's largest open air prison.
The number of children murdered and maimed is not propaganda. That is a wicked and utterly obscene suggestion from the smooth faces of the IOF talking heads and that alone would see them in front of a tribunal... were there a god.
Were you to have any real consideration for your fellow man, your Palestinian cousins, you would not seek deny these reports. You try and sound as if you really caring. I very much doubt you are.. Yours is clearly concocted compassion.
MJoanneS has made the very apposite point that every Israeli Jew, will be, is or has been, a member of the IOF and as such, all, even the children, according to the theory of the "little snakes to be killed in their nest" advanced by your present (untrained) Chief Justice (one wonders how she got that job.. Perhaps gave Bibi's little schlong a suck or two?) are legitimate target. I do not subscribe to this hideous philosophy, by the way, but it is extremely worrying that hard line Likudshitts do.. and have no shame in saying so...
Very few Palestinians are active duty Hamas defenders. There is no equivalence.
If you think it is, you are depraved and distorted... Sad for a member of the caring profession. If this was an attack by blue people against green, nobody would have any problem seeing the problem. The fact is the Palestinians have been deserted by their own and by Western leaders, but NOT the people, which is why BDS is becoming such a threat to the Zionist regime and why they are tying themselves into pretzel shapes to criminalise those who set out to speak and act against the war crimes and crimes against humanity, of gods only people, Zionist Israelis and others, against the new untermensch.
After all, we all know what the end point is intended to be... The rest of the West bank and all of Gaza for Jewish lebensraum. But these stupid stubborn Palestinians hang on so obstinately. Don't they know they are fucked?
Perhaps, as a side point, you might like to tell us why the Israeli military medics are providing aid to injured ISIS fighters (field hospitals in the Golan Heights), them being such 'terrorists' and all.
INSPECTOR-RIKATI
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 01:21
I am very proud of my Jewish heritage but do not share the view that Jews have a right to a part of Palestine (now called Israel). I deplore violence from both sides, albeit can understand while Palestinians seek their rights. The international community has failed the Palestinians badly while the Israelis continue to grab more and more of their land. In the process having killed many. They were the once who started the suicide bombing well before the State of Israel was created. I recall that Israel was blaming Yasser Arafat that he obstructed a peace deal, but reality is he is long dead and Israel really used Yasser Arafat as an excuse. How can anyone claim Israelis Jews are conducting themselves in a honourable manner and follow religious teaching when they place themselves above the rule of law and involved in killing innocent children. It is like a criminal calling himself to be a saint while killing innocent people. I view the Palestinians have a right to live in peace but the Israelis basically like to wipe them out altogether. Remember how Iraq was invaded and bombed back into the stone-age all to make the world a safer place. Well, we cannot even have soldiers and police walking in uniform without being now in danger. Is this making the world a safer place, I doubt this.
Like it or not we must deplore the violence on both sides but must also ensure that we protect the Palestinians from land grabs that continues to this day by the Israelis. The world community should force land grabbed so far to be returned to the Palestinians so that perhaps we may finally achieve some peace. And in the meantime place an embargo against Israel as was done against South Africa during the apartheid period.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Rychard
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 01:49
Lynne.. Hamas are the ELECTED government of Gaza. The tiny little splinter of land left to the Palestinians in the West. Hamas are LEGALLY obliged and allowed to defend their people from invasion, oppression and occupation. They spend most of their money (that the Israelis do not steal) running civilian facilities, where supplies allow it. They spend some, of course, on their military duties. Do you understand that now? You have never been there, have you? Gaza, I mean.
There is no evidence whatsoever that civilians were used as "shields", any more than the IOF used their civilians. That is disgusting Israeli/Zionist/Jewish propaganda and for you not to (try to) understand that indicates that you are not an unbiased commentator, rather a zionist shill. The IOF are well known to enjoying doing this and have done so on many occasions. During the last assault, they used young Palestinian for such, including pushing kids ahead of them into buildings, to open doors and turn on lights, in case of booby traps or other risks. Clear and flagrant war crimes... Whatcha gotta say about that?
ED'S NOTE: This comment has been deited slightly for legal reasons. Readers are reminded not to engage in abusive language.
talknic
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 02:04
@ Lynne Newington
"Hamas are militant Palestinians, the sooner they get rid of them the sooner there will be peace."
Zionist colonization of Palestine began circa 1897. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8632-jewish-colonial-trust-the-judische-colonialbank
Israel began occupying territory "outside the State of Israel" in 1948. http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B4085A930E0529C98025649D00410973
Hamas was formed in 1987 after 90 years of Zionist colonization and after 39 years of Israeli occupation of non-Israeli territories. Hamas are a response to over a century of ongoing Zionist belligerence.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Tokujiro
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 02:14
The NaZionists of Greater Palestine (known by the illegal name of Israel) need to be taken to face the Court of International Justice and Human Rights in The Hague. There can be no excuse at all for the way they have been treating Palestineans in their own homeland since the 1940s. And the U.S. is largely complicit in this as well - via Federal Funding for military purposes and via the extreme Fundamentalist Christian sects in the U.S. too. And all the politicians world-wide bought off by Israel. Hideous does not even go close!
talknic
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 02:19
@ Stary.... "... where is the graphic photos from the other side?"
Indeed. Where are they? You mention a couple of instances. The Palestinians have tens of THOUSANDS of instances. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=deaths+in+gaza&biw=1366&bih=618&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=lleZVZDHLIvi8AXJ44CoCQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
Where are the pictures of blocks of Israeli civilian dwellings completely flattened? Fact is there aren't any.
The Palestinians have no defense what so ever from Israeli warplanes, artillery, missiles, rockets, fletchettes, white phosphorus (used during daylight hours, so it wasn't for illumination and where there were no IDF in the area to hide behind the smoke)
falcemartello
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 03:10
I myself am not surprised. After the Goldstein report which was concise and verry danming of the Isreale Governmt. as I recall it was discredited outright be it by the USA and Isreale.Exactly what they dit to Trigg with her report here inOZ. Classic white washing like most peoples who think themselves exceptional. The west are the only ones . Go to China ,Russia the vast majority of the Middle east Minus Isreale and The House of Saud ,South America and Africa all know the truth of the matter. The west is become more isolated on this issue and its only a matter of time it might not be in my lifetime bit it will be in ur lifetime Micheal.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Australian Muslim
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 03:39
My brief thoughts on the matter
Disproportionate use of force by Israel is not acceptable in civilised world.
Palestinian state has to be established within 1967 borders.
After establishing Palestinian state, If Some Palestinians (Hamas or alike) does not recognise Israel. Then United Nations peace keeping forces can maintain border security until complete peace succeeds.
Anaestro
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 08:01
Having just finished reading Dervla Murphy's "Between River and Sea: Encounters in Israel and Palestine", nothing in the this article came as a surprise. I can't recommend this book highly enough for exposing not so much the atrocities committed during war, but the daily persecution of the Palestinians and the total impunity with which the IDF conduct themselves. Just two days ago there was a report of a 17-year-old boy shot dead by IDF soldiers because he was throwing rocks at their vehicle. They claimed they were in "imminent danger" and acted in self defence. Nothing will happen to them. If a 17-year-old almost anywhere else in the world threw rocks at a police car and was shot dead as a result there would be outrage and the police officers brought to justice (with the possible exception of the US police shooting dead black youths!).
Lynne Newington
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 08:16
Rychard, why don't you mention Israeli and Palestinian doctors working together on humanitarian grounds, and as far as Hamas are concerned, they have conceded ISIS is alive and well within the confines of Gaza and will soon turn against them wait and see, then you'll know what a bloodbath really is.
Unfortunately, Israel and Palestine are political footballs, and striving to solve their own issues, not that one would believe it not making headlines. Even the opportunist Holy See playing one against the other with papal knighthoods for Rabbi's and canonization for Palestinian religious.
DrGideonPolya
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 11:04
Excellent article by Michael Brull and excellent comments by MJoanneS and Australian Muslim. Some key points overlooked by the obscenely biased UN Human Rights Commission Report (which was nevertheless too strong for Apartheid Israel and for its war criminal protector, the US, which voted alone against it on the UN HRC with grossly human rights abusing countries like India and Kenya abstaining):
1. Zero (0) Israelis had been killed by Gaza rockets in the year preceding the 2014 Gaza Massacre.
2. An estimated 90% of Gaza children severely traumatized by the actuality of horrendous mass destruction in Gaza which the UN Report “balances” against “distress and disruption” of civilians in Israel (6 civilians killed).
3. It is estimated that it will take 100 years to replace homes and infrastructure destroyed by Israel in Gaza whereas damage to Apartheid Israel per se was minimal.
4. Asserted Gaza Palestinian “war crimes” through launching rockets were not so much crimes against Israelis (6 civilians killed over 2 months as compared to about 20 Israelis murdered by Israelis over the same period) but rather huge crimes against Palestinians (2,200 killed and 10,000 wounded in predictable disproportionate war criminal Apartheid Israel responses similar to their past genocidal responses).
5. 3,000 Occupied Palestinian under-5 year olds die each year, this corresponding to a total of 4,200 avoidable deaths annually from imposed deprivation (see Gideon Polya, “Body Count. Global avoidable mortality since 1950”, that includes a history of every country from Neolithic times and is now available for free perusal on the web: http://globalbodycount.blogspot.com/ ) i.e. setting aside violent mass murder of Palestinian children, Apartheid Israel deliberately passively murders over 2,000 Palestinian children each year through imposed deprivation (the GDP per person is $37,700 for Apartheid Israel as compared to $2,900 for Occupied Palestine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita ).
Decent anti-racist people around the world who abhor the mass murder of children will apply Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against genocidally racist Apartheid Israel and all its racist backers, noting that Australia under the Coalition ranks second after the US as a supporter of Apartheid Israel.
Anti-racist Australians – both anti-racist Jewish Australians and anti-racist non-Jewish Australians - will utterly reject the Apartheid Israel-supporting, and anti-Arab anti-Semitic Lib-Labs (the Coalition and Labor Right, who are also anti-Jewish anti-Semitic by falsely conflating genocidally racist Apartheid Israel with all Jews), and will accordingly vote 1 Green and put the Coalition last.
MazelMan
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 12:21
Israelis justifiably consider the UN a lost cause, an irrelevant and corrupt organization that will never treat Israel fairly due to the built-in Arab majority. The UNHRC report means nothing. This report is not a legal document. It’s a political document.
For the report to become any type of judicial document, it would have to be backed up by solid evidence. The emotionally loaded pictures that Brull so disgustingly exploits for his hateful political purposes constitute proof of nothing except the use of propaganda to justify a mis-guided belligerent cause.
Israel quite rightly has nothing to worry about. The report is meaningless. But as we see here the Palestinians and their deluded supporters are trying desperately to make political hay out of it.
Meanwhile Hamas continues to deceive its own people - when was the last election in Gaza? And now Hamas is apparently exploiting associations with ISIS to gain mileage for their nefarious, ideological purposes. Sick.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. paul walter
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 13:08
Just mourning the fading into irrelevance of Geofff and up turns MazelMan to do his dirty work for him.
Ïsrael has "nothing to worry about" because it has the weapons and outside support and the Palestinians haven't.
But, MazelMan, "might is not right", even if apologists like yourself do try to paper over the cracks, regardless of the truth.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. MattQ
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 18:42
So when there are no Palestinians left in Palestine, and Israel somehow owns everything the Palestinian people once owned, one must ask: How on Earth did the citizens of the brand-new state of Israel come to own everything once owned by Palestinians, without buying it from them?
I guess Palestinians were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. They shouldn't have fought back, because obviously the fair-minded Israeli's would have realised their mistake and gone elsewhere, but only 'dug-in' once they met resistance? Or they shouldn't have fought back because Judaeism is better than Chritianity or Islam, or they shouldn't have fought back because some of the European arrivals said their distant ancestors might have once lived nearby. We better give all land-title back to Indigenous Australia on that precedent.
Some might say that the only possible deterrent to genocide is genocide, a kind of Mutually Assured Destruction for thieves and repeat war criminals like Britain and Israel. Surely no Israeli thinks many Israeli Jews will ever be allowed into heaven, unless they support justice for the dispossessed they are directly benefitting from - much like Australia. Unless you're fighting every day for the justice of others, going to church or even believing in a Creator is irrelevant. God spits in those hypocritical faces, and torches them at the end of their watch. Back to the factory, deficient ones. You are not, were not, and never will be better than anyone else. *sizzle*
This user is a New Matilda supporter. swarmi
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 19:15
How come you can't get to page 2 in this thread? Anyone else experiencing this problem?
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Rychard
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 21:47
Lynne... That is right, just change the topic. Just as the Global Language Dictionary says you should. As far as football is concerned, it is Israel that is kicking the football of Palestine and the Palestinians around, as it has been since before 1948.
Your transparent attempts at pushing the language of equivalence do not work, so give it up. You are a hasbara troll.. That is clear.
MattQ.. The total $$ value of Palestine stolen is approximately (and I can not remember where I saw this figure so anybody can go look for it) almost $3 Trillion. That does not include the cost of a Palestinian life (about 0.5% that of an Israeli Jew, of course) or opportunity costs of a better life and environment for all.
Giving Palestine away to the Zionists really was the worst mistake in modern history and you will have to draw your own conclusions as to the relationship between that act of folly and that which can not be named.
On another point, check out "Against our better Judgment: How the US was used to create Israel".. Alison Weir .. Fascinating and depressing.
Mazelman... History tells us that tyranny sows the seeds of it's own destruction. This is happening now. More and more Jews, particularly the young, are turning away from Israel and the Likudshittes, recognising their crimes and the damage they are doing to the brand. BDS is ascendant in Europe and many other parts of the world, despite huge efforts by the sayanim to have this method of support of Palestinian human rights declared illegal.. What an act of extraordinary hubris and desperation. They decry sanctions against themselves all the while imposing massive sanctions against Gaza and to a lesser extent, (but still inhumane, vile and illegal) in the West Bank It is just that here in Australia, our politicians are as craven and spineless as the yanks and cave-in to the pressures of the (unelected) zionist lobby like a punctured balloon. ... but that is gradually changing.
The photographs indicate that the most moral, well trained army in the world managed to hit many civilian targets, despite trying so hard, so many times, (as they tell us..) not to..... the figures bear out the awful truth. If you and your sayanim want equivalence, tells us how many Israelis have died in a similar manner. How many M1s, Merkava, F16s, etc, are the Palestinians hiding away? I can not fathom anybody justifying turning such weaponry against largely civilian population, unless they want to carrying out a policy of massed mechanised kiling, an ongoing genocide ... Dahiya doctrine widely applied, with enthusiasm, by gods good and moral people, perpetual victims turned monstrous murderers .. Executing a Palestinian Holocaust in full view, with full recording, pictures and all, as it goes on.. Little to discuss or research there.
MazelMan
Posted Monday, July 6, 2015 - 23:20
Rychard, you can proclaim all the doom that you so anti-semitically desire.
Meanwhile Google CEO Praises Israel as Global Tech Leader Eric Schmidt praises Israeli innovation as 2nd only to Silicon Valley in start-ups as he commits to continued investment in the Jewish state.
talknic
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 02:04
@ MazelMan "Israelis justifiably consider the UN a lost cause, an irrelevant and corrupt organization that will never treat Israel fairly due to the built-in Arab majority."
Nonsense. The majority of nations in the UN are not Arab and the UN has never passed a resolution condemning Israel for any activity within the extent of Israel's actual self declared and internationally recognized sovereignty.
Furthermore Israel has been given HUNDREDS of opportunities to adhere to rhe Laws and UN Charter as re-affirmed and emphasized in hundreds of UNSC resolutions. Never once has any action been taken by the UN for Israel's blatant breaches of International Law and the UN Charter. It's not bias against a country to remind it of its legal obligations
"For the report to become any type of judicial document, it would have to be backed up by solid evidence"
What would that consist of if not first hand testimony.
"The emotionally loaded pictures that Brull so disgustingly exploits for his hateful political purposes constitute proof of nothing except the use of propaganda to justify a mis-guided belligerent cause"
Please explain. The photographer decapitated the child? The father? .
"Israel quite rightly has nothing to worry about"
Is that why Israel is in freak out mode over the ICC?
"Meanwhile Hamas continues to deceive its own people - when was the last election in Gaza? "
Irrelevant to the actual sovereign extent of Israeli territory and Israel's illegal activities in non-Isaeli territories held under Israeli Military Occupation.
"And now Hamas is apparently exploiting associations with ISIS to gain mileage for their nefarious, ideological purposes. Sick."
Accusations are not evidence. Especially accusations from a rogue state in breach of hundreds of UNSC resolutions
talknic
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 02:16
@ MazelMan
"Rychard, you can proclaim all the doom that you so anti-semitically desire."
There's no Antisemitism in Rychard's posts. It's amazing how many apologists for the Jewish State's crimes resort to false accusations, lies and coveting other folks property, completely against the basic common sense tenets of Judaism
"Meanwhile Google CEO Praises Israel as Global Tech Leader Eric Schmidt praises Israeli innovation as 2nd only to Silicon Valley in start-ups as he commits to continued investment in the Jewish state"
Irrelevant. Google isn't in the Occupied Territories
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Australian Muslim
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 02:45
Australia is an accomplice in Israel's disproportionate use of force against Palestinians by supporting and protecting Israel alongside US and UK (Europe). Most of Muslims around the world observe this deliberate negligence.
West can preach Muslim world on many shortcomings but cannot defend itself about the constant killings and devastation going on in Palestine (Israelis also suffer albeit mildly compared to Palestinians).
Australia and its allies have to take the leadership and establish a Palestinian state within 1967 borders and settle Palestinians in the Swiss cheese like Israeli settlements in those areas.
With this goodwill, in the near future both nations can develop mature relationships even swapping land like Gaza Strip and giving more space to Jewish population in and around the wailing wall (Aqsa Mosque).
MazelMan
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 10:11
@Australian Muslim, Israel has hardly used disproportionate use of force against Hamas if Hamas maintains its capability to attack and destroy Israel. Rather one might conclude that Israel failed to diminish Hamas' anti-semitic ardour and should have taken greater steps to destroy Hamas' terror structure.
Since Operation Protective Edge Hamas has been working to restore and build up its strength in advance of the next conflict with Israel renewing its excavation of tunnels and manufacture of rockets, building up its weapons stores , conducting military training exercises, and establishing army camps. Senior movement officials are calling repeatedly for liberating all of Palestine, praising and encouraging jihad, martyrdom, and armed resistance, and threatening to expand their attacks into a full-blown intifada in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Some Hamas officials have been calling for the opening of additional fronts against Israel.
And please Australian Muslim don't preach hypocritically about Israelis killing Palestinians when your brethren are really doing that on a horrendous worldwide scale.
With the underlying malignant intent behind Muslim political ideology that has been manifest throughout history and is prevalent in Islamic scripture Jews can only be highly mistrustful of Muslims and their supporters who tell Israel to pull its head in.
Lynne Newington
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 13:28
While you carry on with all your tripe, as I said before Palestine and Israel will be quietly working towards peace.
Then what will you do?
This user is a New Matilda supporter. jules s
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 14:21
That is a racist comment.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. jules s
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 14:23
That is classy and racist.
Did I say classy? I must have meant something else.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. jules s
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 14:29
Hamas' ability to destroy Israel only exists in your imagination. If your attitude is typical of the people responsible for Israel's "defense' then its no wonder this situation is so fucked up. Israeli's are at war with a figment of their imagination and have mistaken it for civillians in Gaza.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. swarmi
Posted Tuesday, July 7, 2015 - 22:22
@ aMazingMan, @ Lyn
To understand the sad mind of an apologist for Zionist israel look no further than Apartheid South Africa.
The world could not tell the Africaner that they were treating the black population no better than slaves. The white Africaner was resolute in their belief that black Africans were inferior to them. Of course they were wrong. History has shafted them and silenced their supporters around the world (there were many in Australia and most notably Bjlke-Petersen).
The Zionist israeli is in the same boat but their strategy is more refined - and possibly the more disgusting for it. The zionist does not try to say might is right, god is on our side or the Palestinians are mere filth beneath our jackboots (though I bet they think it and some are so stupid as to opin it).
No. What they say is they are the victim. They are the ones under attack. Their response is with reluctance and restraint. They wish to live in a respectful world and it is the Palestinians who have blood lust in their hearts. And, after all, their Ace-up-the-sleeve card, you are all just anti-semites anyway.
But without US dollars backing their vile rationalisations that fly in the face of history and the evidence before our eyes, they too would have gone the way of the white supremicists in SA.
Maybe with BSA they will yet be dealt justice.
But what is also interesting in SA parallel universe, and bears on the reality of the hate that the tyrant feels and needs in order to justify their sociopathic behaviours, is that when the dust settled and the whites were dethroned, the worse thing that happened to them was a 'Truth and Reconciliation' commission. Laudable and Laughable at the same time.
If the zionists get off that lightly I, for one, would be disappointed as I haven't got that much forgiveness in my memory bank.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Australian Muslim
Posted Wednesday, July 8, 2015 - 00:05
@MazelMan. Open minded people see what really happens in Palestine through independent media and make their verdict. If the MSM shows Australian people the true nature of Israel's disproportionate use of force and its consequences in Palestine they would rise up and bring the governments down in the next election and compel the new government to lead establishing a Palestinian state within 1967 borders.
I don't defend Muslims' wrong or abhorrent actions such as killing each other or others for this matter. You are a murderer whether you kill one person or many, you only get more punishment if you kill more.
The negative description of Jews in Quran and Hadith were contextual and politicly motivated and was related to that time only. Muslims also must understand this reality. A sign of this is that despite those negative passages in the scriptures Muslims treated Jews well throughout Muslim history and did not have any important conflict or war with them. This is evident in Abbasid, Spanish and Ottoman eras. The description of Christians in Islamic scriptures are more positive than Jews, despite this fact Muslims have been fighting with Christian world nearly fourteen hundred years. This is also shows that the negative descriptions of Jews in Islamic scriptures were related to the Jews of Madina. I wonder what Islamic scriptures would include if Muhammad lived during Crusading years. You imagine, most probably there would be more negative comment on Christians than Jews. The point here is that Muslims must accept todays Jews as normal citizens and human beings.
On the other side, it is very interesting that Muhammad and Jews of Madina had established the first Multicultural democratic government in history after Roman Senate and Greek Spartan state which was relatively like a constitutional monarchy. But with Political reasons Jews of Madina sided with the Maccan non Muslims and attacked Muhammad and sieged the city of Madina. If they had taken over the city they would obliterate Muhammad and his companions. This was the end of a golden opportunity of reviving and improving the Roman and Greek democratic experiences. It was like Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden apple and being cast out from Heaven. But this is a sad and strange destiny of humanity.
If establishing a Palestinian state is not a duty and urgency for Civilised world then what is the solution? A perpetual war?
talknic
Posted Wednesday, July 8, 2015 - 02:55
@ MazelMan "Israel has hardly used disproportionate use of force against Hamas if Hamas maintains its capability to attack and destroy Israel"
With a few mortars and home made unguided rockets? Get a life pal.
"Rather one might conclude that Israel failed to diminish Hamas' anti-semitic ardour"
Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8).
"Since Operation Protective Edge Hamas has been working to restore and build up its strength in advance of the next conflict with Israel renewing its excavation of tunnels and manufacture of rockets, building up its weapons stores , conducting military training exercises, and establishing army camps."
All quite legal.
"Senior movement officials are calling repeatedly for liberating all of Palestine, praising and encouraging jihad, martyrdom, and armed resistance, and threatening to expand their attacks into a full-blown intifada in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Some Hamas officials have been calling for the opening of additional fronts against Israel."
Also quite legal against an illegal Occupying Power
"And please Australian Muslim don't preach hypocritically about Israelis killing Palestinians when your brethren are really doing that on a horrendous worldwide scale"
Palestinians are not killing anyone on an horrendous scale anywhere..
MazelMan
Posted Wednesday, July 8, 2015 - 10:35
@talknic, now apologist for Islamic terror. Quoting a select verse from the Hamas Charter as though these words mean anything especially when put alongside other belligerent, hateful passages from their covenant. Practically Hamas TV teaches children to kill ‘all Jews’
Islamic State threatens to topple Hamas in Gaza Strip. Israel is supposed to be blasé about that!
Did you listen to the nonsense denials from Hamas that their rocket fire was not aimed at civilian areas? As you admit yourself their rocket technology is crude so they could not guarantee where any of the 4500+ projectiles fired at Israel during Operation Protective Edge would land. Some even blew up their own people.
How can Israel tolerate the constant threat of attack from Gaza? Did the Allies use proportionate force to finally put paid to the Nazis?
@talknic , there is nothing legal about building a terrorist state in a region that poses a direct threat to its neighbours? Got some more guff from your 'international law' handbook to back up your crazy assertions? Your international law references and the efforts of Palestinian lackeys and their UN cronies to delegitimize Israel are invariably lawfare - the illegitimate, selective use of international law for the subversive purpose of undermining an opponent.
talknic
Posted Wednesday, July 8, 2015 - 16:28
@ MazelMan " now apologist for Islamic terror"
LOL. Save it pal. Showing a caveat exists in the Hamas Charter is not apologizing for anything.
"Quoting a select verse from the Hamas Charter as though these words mean anything especially when put alongside other belligerent, hateful passages from their covenant."
LOL. You'll never find the Article Thirty One caveat quoted by any apologist for the Zionist colonization of Palestine. They're too selective, prefering only to cite passages written in war for war, never citing anything that shows why the Palestinians today might have justifiable cause. Like their ridiculous selective citing of the LoN Mandate for Palestine, apologists for Israel's illegal activities in non-Israeli territories never get as far as Article 7, which completely screws their idiotic selective arguments.
"Practically Hamas TV teaches children to kill ‘all Jews’"
According to Memri/PMW's cute un-corroborated translations ...
"Islamic State threatens to topple Hamas in Gaza Strip. Israel is supposed to be blasé about that!"
So Israel should have allowed the Palestinians a state and a military decades ago.
"...their rocket technology is crude so they could not guarantee where any of the 4500+ projectiles fired at Israel during Operation Protective Edge would land. Some even blew up their own people."
It's impossible to determine what an unguided rocket is aimed at by where it lands. The IDF Memorial site statistics show that more Israeli military are targeted, injured and/or killed than are Israeli civilians
"How can Israel tolerate the constant threat of attack from Gaza?"
Israel could withdraw from ALL the non-Israeli territories it has illegally acquired and illegally settled since proclaiming its borders effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) It's never been tried. Withdrawal for peace worked with Egypt.
"Did the Allies use proportionate force to finally put paid to the Nazis?"
Your what aboutery is cute. Lemme see now. Had the British not firebombed Dresden, Israel would not be illegally settling non-Israeli territories... is that what you're trying to say? Or is it two wrongs make a right? Are the British still bombing Dresden? Israel is still illegally acquiring territory by war, illegally settling non-Israei territories, still dispossessing by not allowing RoR. Or is it that you'd rather the Nazis weren't defeated?
"there is nothing legal about building a terrorist state in a region that poses a direct threat to its neighbours?"
Jewish terrorism was widespread prior to the founding of the State of Israel. Jewish terrorists were in territories outside the State of Israel the moment Israel was declared. They became the IDF and they've been in territories the Israeli Government said were "outside the State of Israel"..."in Palestine" ever since.
There is nothing legal in acquiring territory by war and illegally settling it.
There is nothing illegal in resisting occupation. There is bound to be collateral on both sides.
The collateral caused by Israeli armaments is completely disproportionate and the Palestinians have no defense against armaments fired from Israeli warships miles off the coast, no defense against Israeli missiles, rockets, bombs, war planes and shiny new hi tech US funded human slaughtering equipment. Under the Laws of War, Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.
MazelMan
Posted Wednesday, July 8, 2015 - 22:09
@talknic holds truck with the words of deception from Hamas. Find this man - he'd buy anything if it had an anti-Israel sticker on its bum.
Whenever Memri/PMW segments appear it is his policy to cover his eyes, block his ears and feign ignorance. The blind leading the blind.
Withdrawal from the Sinai kinda worked because Egypt was a nation state that made a peace agreement with Israel. Hamas doesn't have any such intention.
Thanks for your platitude "The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited". The trouble is that the buildings targetted were defended - that's why Israel lost 66 soldiers' lives.
So Israel could apparently just go back to its 'secure' borders and everything would be hunkydory. Rather I suggest that you would bear witness to the perverse elements of a very misshapen right wing society (information courtesy of Pew Global polls):
Much to look forward to. LOL
BTW, to what Palestinians are you constantly referring? The one who were born out of the bowels of the Philistines or the ones whose genesis came about as a knee jerk xenophobic reaction to the arrival of Jews in Palestine at the turn of the 20th century?
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Australian Muslim
Posted Thursday, July 9, 2015 - 10:12
I expected some comments from Mazelman on my last post.
MazelMan
Posted Thursday, July 9, 2015 - 10:56
@Australian Muslim, the perpetual war you allude to has been waged by Muslims since their advent.
The negative description of Jews in Quran and Hadith were contextual and politicly motivated and was related to that time only
As for this trope I would suggest some reading to set your mind straight:
In Ishmael's House by Sir Martin Gilbert
Al-Yahud - Eternal Islamic Enmity & The Jews by Elias Al-Maqdisi and Sam Solomon
Anti-Judaism - The Western Tradition by David Nirenberg. Refer chap 4 "To Every Prophet an Adversary" : Jewish Enmity in Islam
Jews have essentially always been 2nd class citizens (dhimmis) in Islamic society, sometimes treated benignly and often not.
This user is a New Matilda supporter. swarmi
Posted Thursday, July 9, 2015 - 18:37
@ aMazingMan
Within every zionist apologist is a racist heart. It's in the very wording and meaning of your ugly thoughts:
"BTW, to what Palestinians are you constantly referring? The one who were born out of the bowels of the Philistines or the ones whose genesis came about as a knee jerk xenophobic reaction to the arrival of Jews in Palestine at the turn of the 20th century?"
Racists zionists (and that is a tautology) like yourself can only defend your discriminatory and violent acts by hiding behind a religion and judging everyone else from within its prism.
Sure you murder women and children, reign death upon Palestinians trapped in Gaza's concentration camp, steal the land and lives of the Palestinian, humiliate and denigrate Palestinians at check--points, de-stabilise the middle-east and defy the condemnation of the world because, in your opportunistic world view, you are the victim. Afterall, Palestinians just want to eat your babies.
But the reality, and the only reality, is not a besieged nation that applies tit-for-tat response to Hamas-inspired terror, but the reality of an occupation which is just the outpost for US imperial designs in the Middle East. This is how you 'earn' the billions of dollars in militay aid that the US provides on an annual basis.
What's religion got to do with it except the cloak you wear to hide the reality of conquest, expansion and genocidal intent of zionist occupation in the ME and from the land of the Palestinian?
This user is a New Matilda supporter. Australian Muslim
Posted Friday, July 10, 2015 - 09:31
Mazelman . One point in your post deserves answer which is the treatment of Jews in Muslim lands before 1900.
The first source you gave (In Ishmael's House by Sir Martin Gilbert) confirms my point:
"In Ishmael's House" sheds light on a time of prosperity and opportunity for Jews in Muslim lands stretching from Morocco to Afghanistan, with many instances of Muslim openness, support, and courage. http://www.amazon.com/In-Ishmaels-House-History-Muslim/dp/0300177984
You say : "Jews have essentially always been 2nd class citizens in Islamic society, sometimes treated benignly and often no".
Non Muslims status in Muslim lands were (dhimmis), perhaps can be called 2nd class citizens. Despite to this status they were relatively prosperous as historical sources say including yours.
Full citizenship concept is the product of British and European Enlightenment which Jewish philosophers had some contribution. Now this full and eqaul citizinship have to be implemented in Muslim countries as well.
talknic
Posted Friday, July 10, 2015 - 17:06
@ MazelMan
"talknic holds truck with the words of deception from Hamas."
If you can tell me who Hamas is fighting with other than the one and only country that has illegally acquired Palestinian territory (after having been given, completely gratis and declaring sovereignty over more than half of Palestine), you might have a point.
"Find this man - he'd buy anything if it had an anti-Israel sticker on its bum"
Nonsense accusations your forte? I only have issue with Israel, my homeland state because it's in breach of International Law, the UN Charter and the basic common sense tenets of Judaism. Something you appear to admire. A state in breach of Laws in large part adopted because of the treatment of our Jewish fellows by the &*^@# Nazis
Furthermore the Zionist Movement's state has robbed Israelis of their constitution under which a Government could be legally elected, refuses to allow non-Jewish Israeli citizens RoR to Israel, actively encourages Jewish Israelis to breach GC IV a convention adopted to protect ALL civilians from the likely violence expected when one occupies another people, sells non-Israeli land in non-Israeli territory to Israeli citizens, lies about its borders while laughably crying victim. What kind of insane Government encourages its citizens to break a law adopted to protect them?
The Palestinians ask for their legal rights and have offered Israel some 78% of their rightful territories for peace with Israel. Israel replied by building more illegal settlements
Israel's ridiculous demands for other folks territory for its defense (while illegally settling it), to be recognized as the Jewish state, that Palestine be dis-armed, have no legal basis what so ever.
"Whenever Memri/PMW segments appear it is his policy to cover his eyes, block his ears and feign ignorance"
Far from it pal. I double check anything I read of theirs. Their proclivity for publishing anything they can that's negative in respect to the Palestinians and Muslims and Arabs in general is propaganda. Same as Israel's apologists. Check every word, because most of the time it's complete bullsh*t!
"Withdrawal from the Sinai kinda worked because Egypt was a nation state that made a peace agreement with Israel."
Read the Peace Treaty buster. Israel was required to withdraw from all territory sovereign to Egypt BEFORE peaceful relations were assumed.
"Hamas doesn't have any such intention"
Israel has never withdrawn completely from any illegally acquired Palestinian territory.
"Thanks for your platitude "The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited"."
It's the law you stupid person
"The trouble is that the buildings targetted were defended - that's why Israel lost 66 soldiers' lives"
Uh huh. The Palestinians sank Israeli warships? Downed fighter bombers? Destroyed drones? Israeli soldiers invaded. What do you expect? Roses?
"So Israel could apparently just go back to its 'secure' borders and everything would be hunkydory."
Never been tried. It's proclaimed borders were secured May 22nd 1948 according to the Israeli Government by which time Israel was already occupying territories "outside the Stte of Israel"..."in Palestine"
"Rather I suggest that you would bear witness to the perverse elements of a very misshapen right wing society (information courtesy of Pew Global polls):
On gay rights a staggering 93% of Palestinians reject the idea that society should accept homosexuality."
Completely irrelevant to the actual sovereign status of the State of Israel and its illegal activities in non-Israeli territories over the last 67 years
"On racism: Palestinians have the highest rate of antisemitic attitudes in the world and officially sanctioned antisemitic incitement continues unabated."
Also irrelevant to the actual sovereign status of the State of Israel and its illegal activities in non-Israeli territories over the last 67 years
"On women’s rights 84% of Palestinians believe that adulterers should be stoned."
Also irrelevant to the actual sovereign status of the State of Israel and its illegal activities in non-Israeli territories over the last 67 years
"On democracy 89% of Palestinians expressed their belief that Islamic law (Sharia) should be the official law of the land"
Also irrelevant to the actual sovereign status of the State of Israel and its illegal activities in non-Israeli territories over the last 67 years
.
"On support for violence, in addition to the glorification of terrorism by PA leaders"
http://pages.citebite.com/r2v6p3p4r1hgf Jewish terrorists have their Israeli placenames, even served in the Israeli Government... BTW Israelis support their violence with nice shiny new hi tech human slaughtering equipment
".. to what Palestinians are you constantly referring? The one who were born out of the bowels of the Philistines or the ones whose genesis came about as a knee jerk xenophobic reaction to the arrival of Jews in Palestine at the turn of the 20th century?"
The Palestinians Jews lived amongst for centuries. The Mandate era census dispels your dopey bigot theories. All you have is Ziopoop