Please Stop Demonizing Militancy

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Zhachev
Please Stop Demonizing Militancy

"The rifle has revealed itself, but the lion has not."

The phenomenon of militancy is shrouded in controversy and misconception. Upon closer examination, the context in which militancy generates and emerges reveals a complex web of factors that contribute to its presence. The erosion of traditional ways of life, the global imposition of Western cultural values, broad economic disparity, social marginalization, and disruption of social norms can and often do all play a role in shaping the dynamics that sustain militancy. Engaging in armed struggle, militants are not only fulfilling social obligations to protect their people and preserve their culture, but they are also self-asserting a reconstituted subjectivity, a militant individuality, actualizing their unlimited potential as creative individuals, becoming unmoored from the mires of resentment, through action.

The militant individual is often one who has experienced either a strict limitation or a total denial of their individual subjectivity. This suspension can stem from a variety of sources, including: traumatic experiences, societal expectations, cultural norms, political regimes, and many more. In some cases, the sense of self of the militant is forged in opposition to historical realities and other definitive constraints, some or all of which may be imposed upon them non-consensually. This leads to deep-seated resentment and desire for resistance. The experience of external restraint can also be internalized, with individuals being socialized to conform to certain societal norms and expectations. The pressure to adhere to these norms can be overwhelming, leading to feelings of suffocation, and a desperation for change. The desire of the militant for self-affirmation, self-expression—for autopoiesis—becomes a means of reclamation, a means of asserting their desires, existence, and individuality.

In some cases, the experience of limitation can be particularly acute, like in situations where certain groups or communities are extremely marginalized and repressed. The sense of self of militant individuals might also be shaped by things like the struggle for simple recognition, or a chance at prosperity, as they seek to challenge the dominant culture and societal structures that attempt to silence and erase their voices.

The desire of the militant individual for autopoiesis and free expression is often driven by an intense sense of urgency, as they recognize that time is never in their favor in life, and that any opportunity to assert individuality is likely to be fleeting. This sense of urgency can manifest in a variety of ways, from spontaneous outbursts, to acts of civil disobedience, and even to more focused and deadly forms of violence.

Ultimately, the desire of the individual for self-expression and autopoiesis is an all-too-human desire, one that cannot ever be completely silenced or suppressed, and by extension the same can be said about militancy. It is at the barest a cry for recognition, a demand for dignity, a command to be heard and seen as an individual with potentiality and subjectivity, no matter how different or unique.

The desire of the individual for autopoiesis and self-expression, especially through armed conflict, is not only part of the personal journey and development of the militant individual, but a fundamental requirement for the survival and cohesion of the larger group. In many traditional and tribal communities, armed struggle and conflict are seen as a necessary means of maintaining and ensuring the well-being of all individual members of the community. Armed struggle serves as a way to resolve disputes, redistribute resources, and reconstitute social bonds. In many societies (especially those originating prior to the era of modern, mechanized, total war), warfare is not simply a brutal and destructive act, but rather a crucial mechanism for maintaining social harmony and equilibrium. It allows for the release of tensions and pent-up energies, and provides opportunities for individuals to distinguish themselves through bravery, skill, speed, and cunning, with those who demonstrate exceptional prowess in battle earning the favor and admiration of other individuals within their community. At times, armed struggle also serves as a way to define (or usurp) social roles and hierarchies within certain communities, by community members. Armed struggle is a means of creating shared experiences and memories which often end up binding communities together and sometimes even defining communities and their trajectories. The collective trauma and suffering inflicted during conflict can create a sense of solidarity and mutual understanding among individual members of a community, as they come together to mourn their loses and rebuild their lives. In this way, armed struggle can also be a catalyst for social cohesion, rather than only a destructive force and cycle of retribution that simply tears communities apart.

The militant individual is not merely an aberrant or deviant figure, not a "villain", but rather an unextinguishable component of the human social fabric. The desire for autonomy and self-expression is not a personal whim, nor a simple act of spite, but instead, sometimes a necessary condition for the survival and flourishing of a people.

lumpy (not verified)
look who it is!

look who it is!

everyone will always demonize militants. if someone is ready for literal violence, why the hell wouldn't they already be accustomed to constant demonization? being a militant IS to be constantly demonized and shrug it off as mere words, which mean almost nothing when compared to the use of force. why don't you know that?

did your "autopoiesis" skip a few steps?

anon (not verified)
"Everyone" does not demonize

"Everyone" does not demonize militancy.

Even if everyone did, the point z seems to be making is not what the militant is accustomed to, but rather if people adjacent to militant action are being honest about moralizing violence or not.

It's no secret violence and pain are nasty and unpleasant.

When you do hear about diversity of tactics in anarchist circles these days, militant action is more taboo than ever, people are more afraid of the panopticon than ever, it's a real issue and you know ("anarcho-") liberalism is a thing.

The "force matters, words don't" routine is silly, just as much as its inverse. Both force and rhetoric have their purpose and an anarch would respond accordingly.

lumpy (not verified)
you're strangely literal so i

you're strangely literal so i'll do you the generosity of rephrasing in defensive writing style, so as to account for your lil attempt at a "gotcha", here ya go!

militants are VERY OFTEN going to be demonized for a hundred obvious reasons. the function of militancy is probably not to persuade these people as they were highly unlikely to ever be persuaded, let alone by something they're ideologically opposed to

the second part of your argument spirals off in to almost total incoherency: which "anarchist circles"? "more taboo than ever" (says you), it's a "real issue" - yes, i know it is, that's my point.

it's a "real issue" that the militant will need to walk straight through, having accepted that they're not playing a game of respectability politics anyway. as for "rhetoric matters", your mention of the "anarch" certainly implies which of the two you tend to spend your time doing. also, i never said rhetoric doesn't have a purpose.

I said people who do more than talk, will always get the peanut gallery going. comes with the territory!

anon (not verified)
Really confusing comments.

Really confusing comments. Hard to read.

The function of militancy is not to persuade which people? The people who demonise? What are you saying the function of militancy is since you seem clear on that?

Violence is force, force is often equated by leftists, including many anarchists, with the exertion of power or domination, which are evil. They want a world without violence, power, domination, etc., so it's evil and wrong to use violence to accomplish that.

anon (not verified)
It's a real issue, because

It's a real issue, because applying violence effectively, especially in this societal climate of hyper-surveillance, requires extremely close affinity between the people involved in the action. Intimate friendships are absolutely crucial for prolonged and effective resistance. It's hard enough to make friends for most adults. Making friends, who also want to blow up empire with you is a tall order. I think having conversations about how to have conversations about blowing things up with other people is probably worthwhile.

anon (not verified)
SoO true. Z likes to

SoO true. Z likes to threaten to apply violence to women and children and but there's too many receipts in this gyper-surveillance societal climate! It's so worthwhile to have conversations about. Oh yeah don't talk about talking about blowing things up because nice try, FBI.

anon (not verified)
you've been on here saying

you've been on here saying "nice try, fbi" for like 19 years. meanwhile a person posting warnings on facebook almost took out a US president. i think you might be paranoid

anon (not verified)
Oh kewl. How's he doin? Your

Oh kewl. How's he doin? Your turn soon?

anon (not verified)
the marxists have no problem

the marxists have no problem organizing on the internet...more than 90% of people meet new people from the internet...what's the sense in doing the nice try, fbi thing everytime? it's not even necessarily good opsec...it's arguable the web is a safer space than going right into some workshop about blowing up a pipeline...

what's your point, lumpy?

anon (not verified)
OooOooh the Marxists are

OooOooh the Marxists are organizing! How they doin? Such a threat. Just like YOU who have been talking big talk on all the online anarchist forums that haven't figured out how to block you but have done jack-fucking-shit. Nothing but a measly morsel of peepee poopoo trying to get others to do very dangerous things AND TALK ABOUT IT ONLINE YOU FUCKING PIGFUCKER, Z. The FUNNIEST thing is that there are anarchists out there doing extremely dangerous things but you're not satisfied because they're not filling your fetish of telling YOU about it online so you can live vicariously through them. So, fuck you very much. Get your own hands dirty. Anarcho-tourism to impress normies on FB doesn't count. Now fuck off. I HAVE NO LUMPS. I AM SMOOTH AS SILK but it's good to know that Lumpy lives rent free in your broken brainworm.

anon (not verified)
Lol. Marxists are everywhere

Lol. Marxists are everywhere

anon (not verified)
Okay, comrade Z..

Okay, comrade Z..

https://youtu.be/PlrnXPE8OQE?t=107

Are the Marxists with you right now? Are they asking your to do things you'd rather not do?

It's interesting you've come full circle back to your Marxoid roots. Well it's NOT interesting, but it's something...

lumpy (not verified)
i apologize for stealing your

i apologize for stealing your valor in this weird dude's brain lol

i've been tossing peanuts at him for years now, this is my reward for a hardwired pattern of being obnoxious :D

anon (not verified)
Ever seen the FBI raid

Ever seen the FBI raid Facebook HQ and seize their servers the past few years for all the support to terrorism and extremism the platform has done? Nope. That's because the Fedbook is what it is.

anon (not verified)
Even if the whole net is

Even if the whole net is tapped completely, and stored on some giant server farm in Utah, which it likely is, so what? That doesn't negate how incredibly useful it is as a tool on many, many levels. Discussions about how to best take advantage of the internet for dissident activities does not instantly beget "FBI".

anon (not verified)
I don't see where you're

I don't see where you're getting at, as I only pointed out how Fedbook is a different thing than the internet, and that there's a double standard when it comes to posting incriminating shit on it... vs the rest of the internet.

ISIS was literally using the platform openly. If it would have happened on any other site they would have been shut down quick. Equally, post similar calls to anti-state violence on the Fedbook and you'll very soon start your journey in prison (coz that happened, and you know who). Why is that?

anon (not verified)
Every time you engage with

Every time you engage with him his brainworms only grow exponentially larger. Don't feed Z's brainworms, brah! We in fuckin' shai hulud territory up there. Abort!

anon (not verified)
*Shia LaBeouf FTFY

*Shia LaBeouf

FTFY

lumpy (not verified)
persuasion becomes coercion

persuasion becomes coercion when force is the means. i'm comfortable using both.

i find it asinine and embarrassing beyond belief when anyone (especially anarchists) asserts that all violence is equal and moralizes about it. as a person, i'd prefer to use persuasion until other people force my hand but that's just my personal preference and clearly not how many other people in the world behave, therefore ...

is that clear enough yet? the function of force is pretty fukin straightforward and usually it tends to alienate people but not always. force rarely "persuades" unless you're using that word in a snarky, ironic way?

anon (not verified)
Exiled away to the forums

Exiled away to the forums like the wet fart in a small hot room that his tech-addicted LARPy brainworms he is. There is nothing militant about whining all day on social media for anarchists to go harder when you've still actually done absolutely nothing yourself but complain. Store-brand Kevin Tucker wannabe.

lumpy (not verified)
what was that other piece of

what was that other piece of writing called, that plopped on here awhile back?

it was all like "i'm in a walmart, thinking about how the aisles in walmart are the same as running down wooly mammoths while lookin badass in animal skins. none of this is weird analysis, YOU'RE WEIRD!"

anyway, it made me think of z and i could hear soft, sad piano

anon (not verified)
If anyone out there cares

If anyone out there cares about these mythologies beyond low-quality trolling, it's true at first glace z and kt might appear to have some superficial similarities, that comes from them doing shit like stanning attack-y in niche places like this, but they really couldn't be more different from each other. Same with jz. Some of these discussions happened on a radio calls.

Long story short, despite the caricatures, z is not a primitivist. Believe it or not he's not into environmentalism. He doesn't have a parodic understanding of nihilism, and he is basically obsessed with french pomo thinkers.

There's a wide-cleft between them. But lumpy doesn't know anything about those

lumpy (not verified)
hi z! i wasn't saying you're

hi z! i wasn't saying you're a primmie LARPer, i was saying the cringe is similar? like vibes?

french pomo is another classic motte and bailey for a bullshit artist, glad to hear about your growth!

anon (not verified)
Not z... What cringe or vibes

Not z... What cringe or vibes? Be more clear

lumpy (not verified)
you get exactly as much as i

you get exactly as much as i decide to give, k sweetheart? :)

anon (not verified)
Fair enough.

Fair enough.

But I'm just gonna say. You have added nothing to this conversation whatsoever. Thread is supposed to be debating the moralisation of violence and you and at least one anon have entered the convo in order to nothing, evidently, but moralise violence, with ironically violent language and "vibes".

Such a prolific poster on this site but your critical offerings are rarely worthwhile or even close to savory. Try harder.

Why are you against militancy or against people discussing it?

lumpy (not verified)
if you're aware of my

if you're aware of my "prolific posting", why don't you understand that i'm a militant, implying that this writer doesn't know his subject worth two shits?

z is beneath contempt and is receiving well earned mockery by those of us more familiar with his work than it seems you are. now that you've had this spelled out plainly, perhaps you should reread everything without your completely assbackward assumptions?

anon (not verified)
Nobody cares about these two

Nobody cares about these two tech-addicted dingdong nobodies that don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breathing universe as JZ. At least KT has an excuse.

anon (not verified)
What's the goal or reward

What's the goal or reward with this endless trolling and bad faith commenting? It's embarrassingly obvious to anyone who knows any of these peeps well that you don't.

What are you getting out of this that you wouldn't through making a genuine effort to have an interesting, imaginative conversation?

TranslationTurd (not verified)
"You don know meeeee!!!"

"You don know meeeee!!!" ~tOtally not Z

anon (not verified)
"a [desperate] cry for

"a [desperate] cry for recognition, a[n underwhelming] demand for dignity, a """command""" to be heard and seen"

anon (not verified)
Militant individuality is

Militant individuality is when you threaten women and children from your computer but then don't so anything except scream at your mom and do anarcho-tourism.

anon (not verified)
*do

*do

anon (not verified)
hide your women

z is khamas

anon (not verified)
Just look how being an asshat

Just look how being an asshat and online creep gives you fame on the internet... even the anarchist internet. How disappointing, internet!

SirEinzige
I don’t demonize militancy

I just don’t think it’s desirable as a mode of radicalism. I very much agree with the situs on militancy and extend it to things like activism which also tends to select for things like purity and self sacrifice.

I very much like natural embodied violence, but I don’t consider that to be militancy.

anon (not verified)
Is the AOC violent? Is it??

Is the AOC violent? Is it?? Is AOC violent? Would it be violence or militancy if AOC was anti-AOC??? Would this be desirable far right radical centrism? OoOoh!

Zhachev
I'm assuming you mean the

I'm assuming you mean the position of Debord/Asger Jorn over Vaneigem?

Desire for those who have creative potential can be an extremely subjective thing. The autopoietic individual is essential desire + energization. But most individuals don't know what they want, and therefore don't know who they are, and in this absence of self-overreach they simply take on the desires of the status quo and self-replicate mimetically.

Where does the line between "natural embodied violence" and militancy get crossed for you exactly?

Zhachev
*essentially

*essentially

anon (not verified)
"most individuals don't know

"most individuals don't know what they want, and therefore don't know who they are"

Do you think a hurricane, which everybody who is paying attention to the autopoietic individual knows is pure natural embodied violence, feels remorse? Do you want to be a fuckin warrior? How many women and children have your stalked and threatened today? Does the hurricane not also self-replicate mimetically, even perhaps militantly in the ontological meaning of vigorously active, combative and/or aggressive??

Alhamdulillah!

SirEinzige
the crossing of lines

I would say the issue comes when violence is exteriorised and instrumentalised to the point where a violent elect is erected into action that is separate from a general social context. Activism is very much an adjacent example of this when juxtaposing it to propaganda. It's propaganda driven by a performative elect. I see militancy as performative contrived violence that constructs(among other things) artificial missions to complete in the name of some alienated goal. The immediacy of everyday life is not served by any of this.

It's not exactly an accident that militancy as we know it took off in the 20th century when human conditions overall got more comfortable(at least at a general somatic level-psychological comfort is a different matter). If you look at the world that created Renzo Novatore for instance, that world was considerably more structurally violent then the world that existed after ww2. While Renzo was a fairly amplified node of violence, I would not call him a militant.

The 21st century is even more quantitatively comfortable. As such, you really should only be as violent as you have to be. We don't live in 19th century conditions anymore and insurgent violence should reflect that.

Zhachev
We're barely scratching the surface

Underlying the question of violence and militancy is the question of what it means to “be in world". If there is an ontic reality underlying everything, we lack direct access to that ontic reality as humans because of sensory mediation. "World" is therefore something highly individuated and perspectival, and every being that espouses a perspective is experiencing its own "world". In that sense, there are many overlapping worlds existing together. They are at their most basic just complex webs of events unfolding over time (in other words, durations, or becomings).

It's meaningless to critique militancy as contrived and artificial because that's exactly the purpose of it. The point of violence is to use active force to be creative.

What you call the "performative elect" one could also call promethean, nomadic, heroic; free spirits, people willing to fight for what they believe in, will always be painted by haters and the weak-willed as flamboyant and theatrical, even melodramatic; zealotry.

I find in your ideas so far an oversimplification of the complexities of militancy and its role in different past contexts. Militancy is an intrinsic part of the human social fabric. There's also situations and places where resistance isn't a choice.

Violence should be minimized, sure, because it often hurts beings of many kinds. Following the lead of Epicurean pleasure hedonism, the heuristic of good and bad as the pleasurable and the painful is something helpful in daily life.

Proportionality is a noteworthy concept that has my sympathies. But one should not understate the violence caused by racism, sexism, parenting, compulsory schooling, mass culture, heteronormativity, wage slavery, anthropocentrism, etc., and there is the question of what is a proportional response to everything we're exposed to before we even know who we are or what's happening to us. I agree that the more comfortable a society is overall, the better off the least in said society are, the more violence should be minimized to only that which is necessary, but again, there are many worlds and society where violence and militancy are very much still matter-of-fact or even necessary.

It's important not to overemphasize individual comfort levels over addressing systemic issues and ignoring the flows of the dynamics of power that operate on the scale of world and destiny.

Hermeneutician (not verified)
Of course there are many

Of course there are many untruthful assertions in your comment but I just want to call out one:

"The point of violence is to use active force to be creative."

Do show us your ass on this. I'll wait. We can go over the rest of you pass.

Hermeneutician (not verified)
*if

*if

PrometheanNomad (not verified)
Don't you see that

Don't you see that threatening to rape and murder women and children or making threats to shoot up an anarchist bookfair because one of the attendees laughed at you on their radio program is simply "creative active force"? Stop demonizing creativity. The Promethean Nomadic being is merely overlapping with melodramatic ignorances in militant ways!! OooOooh!

anon (not verified)
No response. Because can't!

No response. Because can't! FUCK!

anon (not verified)
Do you believe in looove?

The existence of an ontic reality is Socratic bullshit. As we all live in the relativistic world of senses and narratives ("perspectival"). Reality is semantic and contextual, or it is not.

A hurricane is a contextual reality, or it is not...

SirEinzige
promethan and the like

Well promethean tendencies can go in anarchic and not so anarchic directions. I just don't see the militant as those other good things. My issue is that violence in the context of militancy always goes in more crudely instrumentalist directions that don't really reflect an embodied immediacy or anything concretely related to personal goals and needs.

I don't agree that militancy is part of any social fabric. It is quite often an internalization of something more societal then social. It is violence in the service of a memological structure more then something epigenetically embodied. I very much agree on the epicurean point. Jun Tsuji represented this par excellent and he's one of my all time favourite @s. The problem is militancy tends to run counter to a lot of that and often is driven by non life affirming drives. It also tends to attract violent racketeers and wannabe authoritarians.

Much of those ills you mentioned can be addressed by authentic non-militant violence. People with natural tendencies towards oppositional defiance for instance who should very much be supported. The issue of militancy isn't a proportion problem or even an intensity problem. It's the problem of a 'kind or type of violence' more than anything.

Zhachev
Part I

Interested in your thoughts on what an anarchic prometheanism would look like, outside or inside the contexts of this back-and-forth?

The criticism of militancy as crude instrumentalism is one we share. I provided earlier some ontological reasoning against the idea of "the world", why one can't change "the world". The world isn't an object to behold.

I don't think armed struggle can "Free Palestine" or "Destroy the bourgeoisie". But Palestinians can fight against their eradication and that of their friends and family as individuals who are fully capable of reflecting on the underlying values, goals, and ethical implications of their militancy, and an individual bourgeois can be eradicated to some effect without that action necessarily being instrumentalist.

Militancy can also encourage critical reflection on existing moral and ethical frameworks. In advocating for change, individuals are prompted to reevaluate their positions, leading to a greater understanding of their own beliefs and motivations. This reflective process can facilitate personal growth, enabling a deeper exploration of one’s identity and values.

By disrupting conventional norms, militancy creates space for individuals to experience a sense of liberation. The act of resisting societal expectations offers a pathway to authenticity, where individuals can embrace their true selves and express their beliefs without the constraints of societal judgment.

The militant could be an artist that creates through martial action, violence, destruction (res-struction). One who doesn't necessarily judge their actions by their efficacy in achieving a certain end, but rather by the tenants of their own uniqueness, enabling the individual to enhance and affirm their existence. In a world marked by nihilism, militancy can allow for the creation of personal meaning and serve as a counterbalance to societal pressures and violence. It leads to a heightened awareness and can offer respite from life’s chaos, celebrating both beauty and the suffering integral to that existence. The militant can be valued as a courageous individual who challenges societal norms and embodies unique perspectives, which are crucial for human flourishing. One might highlight the interplay of the Apollonian and Dionysian elements in militancy, allowing for catharsis and the embrace of the complexities of life; war as a means to interrogate and challenge traditional morality, prompting reflections on truth and personal freedom.

Violence is intricately connected to deeper psychological dynamics rather than being a straightforward aspect of any essentialist human "nature". In a world marked by existential questions and a pervasive sense of lack, the commitment to a cause can offer a powerful means of identity formation and self-affirmation. Engaging in militant action is a way to assert one’s identity and find purpose within a larger narrative. This alignment with a cause fosters a sense of belonging, allowing individuals to connect with others who share similar beliefs. In doing so, they create a cohesive identity that is often more meaningful than solitary existence. Such solidarity not only cultivates emotional support but also reinforces a collective sense of purpose, enabling individuals to feel part of something greater. So the act of militancy can serve as a channel for desire, transforming latent urges into concrete actions. In a society that often leaves individuals feeling incomplete or unfulfilled, dedicating oneself to a cause can alleviate some of that existential pain. This engagement provides clarity and direction, allowing individuals to find empowerment and fulfillment through their fight.

Zhachev
Part II

The intensity of militant engagement offers a cathartic release. The passion for a cause can help individuals articulate and externalize their frustrations and desires, especially when they feel constrained by the norms of society. As they channel their energy into actions that challenge the status quo, they experience a sense of liberation that can be deeply rewarding.

Engaging in militant action can create opportunities for the confrontation of authority and injustice. This fight against oppressive structures empowers individuals, granting them agency in what may otherwise feel like a passive existence. The defiance against perceived injustices fosters a sense of strength, allowing individuals to assert their beliefs and stand up for their values.

Militancy and its relationship with violence needs to be understood through a lens that considers the social or cultural or societal fabric and past contexts from which they emerge. While some argue that militancy is serving broader societal structures rather than individual needs, this perspective overlooks the complexity of community dynamics. In many cases, militancy reflects an organic response to authoritarianism, rooted in shared aspects of individual identity rather than imposed ideological frameworks.

Autonomy plays a crucial role in shaping the nature of violence within communities. Non-state societies often exhibit forms of violence that serve to protect their identity and resist external authority. This suggests that militancy can, at times, be a manifestation of a community's desire for self-determination, rather than simply a product of societal pressures.

The notion of violence in militancy as an internalized societal construct dismisses the lived experiences and cultural histories that inform aggressive actions. Violence, in this context, may arise from deeper communal struggles and shared memories, making it an expression of identity and resistance rather than mere functionality or utility.

Concerns about militancy attracting authoritarian figures or leading to destructive outcomes are valid. However, the challenge lies in fostering community norms that emphasize autonomy and mutual support, countering any authoritarian tendencies (which at timesmay itself necessitate violence). It is essential to recognize that not all forms of violence are inherently negative or positive; rather, they exist within a continuum shaped by social relations and the specific historical conditions at play. Understanding militancy requires an acknowledgment of its complexities, including the potential for violence to be both a form of expression and a tool for resistance. The discourse around militancy should address its origins and implications, at any and every level possible, while considering the broader social dynamics that inform its practice.

anon (not verified)
Fuck off, Colin Robinson

Fuck off, Colin Robinson

GEF (not verified)
Just saying

...i bet a vampire that also looks like a dad is probably too busy being ethically nonmonogamous with relationship anarchy on hinge to care about militancy...

anon (not verified)
Please stop retardifying

Please stop retardifying demons.

"Demonic watchamacallit. I mean come on, ol' Ange here is just trying to put the ooooga booga on us, okay?"

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