hello, i hope you are all doing well. i dont use this app like at all but some opinions on this would be splendid. now, i know this discussion is rehashed like every week (i assume) but… what are some good translations for the illad, odyssey, and aeneid for a novice classics reader? ive read fitzgeralds odyssey no complaints but id love to read another translation aswell. i was thinking fagles or wilson but ive also heard lombardo is good.

I am reading the divine comedy by Dante now and I am absolutely loving it! I’m currently on the fifth canto and I just love the depth and imagery that Dante put in this work. There is wine problem though and that is Virgil. As he is very important in the work and he wrote the Aeneid I had a question. Would it be a good/smart idea to read the Aeneid alongside the commedia?

How did the Greeks view it? Did they see it as a respectable work based on Homer, or as kind of cheap fan fiction, or didn't they have strong opinions on it at all?

This week marks the start of our reading of The Aeneid. Two things really struck me when I started this week's reading. First - how different Virgil's prose is from Homer's. Second - how distracted I got trying to map the Roman god's names back to their Greek counterparts. It took most of these two books to set them straight again. If this happened to you too, don't forget to check out 'The Aeneid Begins' post for a handy guide to help keep the names straight.

As always summaries are below and questions are in the comments.

Book 1

The tale opens with Virgil stating that the poem is about war and Aeneas, the man who leaves Troy to found Lavinium. Juno (Hera) has it out for the Trojans who try to flee Troy for Italy after their defeat by the Greeks. Juno mentions that a man on one o the ships is fated to found the city that will overthrow her favourite city, Carthage. She pleads to Jupiter (Zeus) to destroy the Trojan fleet, and he obliges her. Most of the fleet it wrecked. However, Aeneas and his crew manage to find safety on the African coast near Carthage.

Venus (Aphrodite) pleads with Jupiter to keep his promise and allow the Trojans to reach Italy. Jupiter tells Venus not to worry and that her son Aeneas would found Lavinium and his descendants will usher in an age of peace.

Mercury (Hermes) goes to Carthage to ensure Queen Dido welcomes Aeneas. Dido prepares a banquet in Aeneas's honour. Venus sends Cupid as a replacement for Ascanius, so Cupid can fill Dido's heart with love for Aeneas.

Book 2

Aeneas reluctantly tells Dido his account of the fall of Troy. He describes the tenth year of the war when the Greeks built a wooden horse as an offering to Minerva (Athena) for safe passage home, but instead it was filled with their best warriors, including Ulysses (Odysseus).

Fooled, the Trojans brought the horse into the city. Laocoon speared the wooden horse to try to prove it was a trap. A Greek captive, Simon, says he deserted the army when he learned he was to be sacrificed. This was a lie, Simon was a plant to deceive the Trojans.

That night, the warriors descended from the Trojan horse, the fleet returned, and Troy was sacked.

Aeneas saw Hector in a dream, and Hector told him to seek a new city for the Trojans. Aeneas first tries to fight but ultimately decides to flee Troy for Italy.

I got a new translation of the Aeneid, and I was surprised to see it open with the following lines:

'I’m the same man who once coaxed music from slenderest reed pipes, Then, upon leaving the forests, I worked in the neighbouring ploughlands, Making them yield their resources to even the greediest settler: Farmers all loved this work. Now I turn to the horrors of battle, Arms and the man I sing....'

It had a footnote saying these lines were removed by Virgil's editors for some reason. What is the original Latin for these opening lines? I can't seem to find it. All the Latin versions I've found begin with 'Arma virumque cano'.

TL;DR

There are a lot of callbacks to the Illiad/Aeneid in ASOIAF, particularly in Robert's Rebellion, some of which are described below. Robert's Rebellion is not exactly the same as the Illiad, so the parallels are not exact, but there are so many that the influence becomes really obvious once you start looking.

More to the point of the title, though: in the current timeline, Stannis's actions make him a lot like Agamemnon. Now this is just speculation, since -- again -- not all ASOIAF characters are exactly the same as their parallels in the Illiad/Aeneid. But Stannis's similarity to Agamemnon, along with the themes of ASOIAF, makes me wonder if he really will share Agamemnon's ending.

(Which is to eventually get killed by Selyse or maybe even Patchface, who was once rumored in-universe to be Selyse's lover, as retribution for sacrificing Shireen.)

ASOIAF and the Illiad

A number of elements in ASOIAF have similarities -- not exact 1:1 matches, but similarities -- to elements of The Illiad and The Aeneid:

• the Targaryens and Valyrians in general seem to resemble the Trojans/Romans, while the STABL alliance is related to the Greeks

• The gods punished the Greeks for their atrocities during the sack of Troy, just as the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon hang over the narrative almost like a specter to haunt the Baratheon-Lannisters

• Aenys == Aeneas (founder of the Roman empire). If I had to guess about the prevalence of "ae" in Targaryen names, I think it's a reference to Aenys/Aeneas

• Daenys the Dreamer == Cassandra

• Rhaegar == Paris, but also sort of Hector (the death of Hector's son is like the death of Rhaegar's children), but also sort of Aeneas, from his reputation as the "virtuous" one in contrast to his father Aerys II

• Lyanna == Helen

• Cersei == Helen (legendarily beautiful woman who was in love with the Paris parallel and marries the Menelaus parallel at the end)

• Elia == Hector's wife Andromache (through her marriage to Rhaegar) but also to a degree Helen, since her death is also the impetus for a very tense situation between the Martells and the Lannisters that I'm sure will turn into a war soon enough. I think it's interesting that Cersei, Lyanna, and Elia, as three beautiful women from Great Houses who are in the orbits of Rhaegar and Robert, are all sort of like Helen

• Robert == Menelaus (the war started with the kidnapping of his wife Helen) but also sort of Achilles (the legendary fight between Robert/Rhaegar feels a bit like that between Achilles/Hector)

• Jaime == Achilles (beautiful and extraordinary hot-headed fighter who disguised himself as a girl in his youth, who doesn't fight for most of the war except for doing something big and controversial right at the end, and who has a terrible son)

• Tywin == Odysseus (Odysseus is a trickster who initially tried some tricks to stay out of the war and later devised the plan about the Trojan Horse to sack Troy)

• Stannis == Agamemnon (brother of Menelaus who is very harsh and who sacrificed his daughter to the gods for success in a war. Agamemnon won the war and then went home and was killed by his wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus, at least in part because he killed their daughter Iphigenia)

ASOIAF is not the Illiad

because there are a lot of differences, too. For example:

• Helen doesn't die, but Lyanna and Elia do

• Hecuba seems to have more agency and successfully gets vengeance in many versions of the story, unlike her counterpart Rhaella

• Melisandre is a bit like Cassandra, but she is not Stannis's captive and people generally believe her prophecies

• Achilles dies, but his parallels (Jaime and Robert) do not. I think this is an interesting subversion though, since Achilles was given the choice to be a glorious hero and die young, or to live a long and mundane life, and chose the former. Young Robert and Jaime would 100% have made the same decision, but the opposite life was handed to both and both struggle to find purpose after losing their martial prowess

• ASOIAF features no Patroclus to Jaime's Achilles

• Ned is possibly the Patroclus to Robert's Achilles, but Ned didn't die in Robert's Rebellion

• there is no really obvious Ned in the Illiad, as far as I can tell. I don't think he's Odysseus (who also had an eventful journey home) but I don't like the Odysseus comparison because of how much Ned loathes the Lannisters because of the sack of KL. Odysseus was the architect of this plan in mythology

• Aeneas's survival in the Trojan War is sometimes interpreted as, the one good member of the family makes it out. But his most obvious parallel Rhaegar does not survive, and this role (and subsequent wanderings in search of a home where they can establish their empire) is filled in the story mostly by Daenerys and potentially Aegon

Summary

This theory about Stannis's death admittedly isn't the strongest, because the Illiad, while being an influence on ASOIAF, is also not reproduced in a 1:1 way in the story. A lot of other ASOIAF characters don't share the fates of their Greek or Trojan counterparts, so Stannis needn't either. But, I think an ending like Agamemnon's would make sense in context of the themes of ASOIAF, because a central dilemma posed by the books is whether it's right to sacrifice innocents for power or higher causes.

Compare and contrast: the very confused show storyline, in which Stannis sacrifices Shireen, and it does nothing to advance his goals, and then he dies as punishment for something entirely unrelated to Shireen. Stannis's actions are portrayed as horrific, but he doesn't die as karmic punishment for burning his daughter alive. He only dies because Shireen's sacrifice didn't work, at least not for him. (And the character for whom it does work -- Jon -- enjoys a "have your cake and eat it" characterization in which he never has to wrestle with the horrific cost of his resurrection.)

Both with Stannis and Jon, the show's storyline shows an inability to engage with (what I at least see as) GRRM's point, which is that sacrifices like this are wrong. Shireen's sacrifice would still have been wrong even if it had worked exactly as intended.

I think this point would be clearer if the shape of this plotline is:

1. Stannis sacrifices Shireen like Agamenon sacrificed Iphigenia

2. in the short term, the sacrifice gets Stannis what he needs, just as it did for Agamemnon

3. and then Stannis, and whatever victories he wins, are haunted forever by the crime of Shireen's death, in much the same way that Robert and the Lannisters have been haunted by Elia's, Rhaenys's, and Aegon's

How did the Greeks view it? Did they see it as a respectable work based on Homer, or as kind of cheap fan fiction, or didn't they have strong opinions on it at all?

How did the Greeks view it? Did they see it as a respectable work based on Homer, or as kind of cheap fan fiction, or didn't they have strong opinions on it at all?

Salvete, sodales!

I would like to know which are your favorite Aeneid fragments? I'm re-reading it, and I would enjoy knowing your opinions.

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Me Aeneida relegente, cogitabam quas partes alii lectores magni existimarent. Quae vobis dilectissimae sunt?

Gratias maximas!

I am currently reading In this preface, Lewis references Virgil's Aeneid, and quotes some of its lines in English. I am trying to track down the translation Lewis was using, but so far I've come up empty. I really like this translation and want to read it myself, if the whole thing is available anywhere. Here are some of the lines Lewis quotes:

Where carved in ancient cedar their old sires appear

In order: father Italus and grey Sabine

Bearing his hook in token how he loved the vine,

And Saturn old and Janus with his double face . . .

(vii, 180.)

Meanwhile the sun had rolled through the delaying year

And icy winter, roughening the dark waves, was here.

(iii, 285.)

One day it will be pastime to recall this woe,

Through all these freaks of fortune and hard straits we go

Right onward to the promised home, the Latian earth,

Where we shall rest and Ilium have her second birth.

(i, 206.)

How did the Greeks view it? Did they see it as a respectable work based on Homer, or as kind of cheap fan fiction, or didn't they have strong opinions on it at all?

I want to hear him say it!!!!!!!!!

I’m a classics undergrad atm (later hoping to move into Ancient Phil) and I gotta say after reading the Aeneid I was totally floored. Every line feels like it is open to interpretation and is so rich with meaning.

My favorite moment was when Aeneas takes his sword (no longer encumbered by Carthaginian adornments) and like a flash of lightning cuts the ropes to his ship as Dido kills herself with another sword of Aeneas’.

The likening to a flash of lightning to me represents Jupiter and Aeneas’ obligations given to him by the gods. The ropes being cut and the sword being bare represent a people (the Trojans) and a destiny no longer being shackled by Earthly desires and decadence. The Trojans immediately feel liberated and ready the ships with the same ardour. Meanwhile such a dream of imperial glory requires the death of the beautiful Dido - Virgil wants us to ask ourselves: was it worth it?

Nearly every part of the Aeneid sticks with me and has me thinking for a long time after I read it. I can’t say the same about the Odyssey for example. With Homer I can appreciate a very (VERY) rich world and while I consider the Homeric works some of the best works of mankind they were never as deep to me. When I write essays on Homeric works I usually wish I was writing essays on the Aeneid - there’s just so much more depth to work with.

To me Virgil took everything that was great about the Odyssey and the Iliad and refined them into the first and second half of the Aeneid respectively. He did the same with Theocritius’ works when he wrote the Georgics.

And whilst in pre-Victorian times most people interested in the classics would tell you that Virgil was the best poet, nowadays I feel he is slightly ignored in favor of Homer. I suppose it may reflect a changing political climate. I remember that Philip Hardie wrote in “The Last Trojan Hero” that he doubted the Aeneid would ever regain its past popularity due to its imperial themes.

Anyway, what are your thoughts and experiences on this topic?

This weekend marks the start of our reading of the Aeneid! In university, I did a year’s worth of study on the Roman Empire, so I’m extra excited about reading this text.

Our schedule for this reading is roughly two ‘books’ aka chapters a week, for the next six weeks. We will be posting discussion posts every weekend, to talk about that week's reading.

The full schedule is:

• Books 1 & 2 - 16/09/23

• Books 3 & 4 - 23/09/23

• Books 5 & 6 - 30/09/23

• Books 7 & 8 - 07/10/23

• Books 9 & 10 - 14/10/23

• Books 11 & 12 - 21/10/23

I’ve never read the Aeneid before, so please keep that in mind here. I’ll try to provide as much context as I can, but unlike with the Iliad, I am unable to go in-depth about the characters we are about to meet. I will provide a list of the Greek gods names in their Latin form because I think it’s fair to say that that can be a bit confusing, at the bottom of this post.

About the Writer:

Publius Vergilius Maro aka Virgil lived during the late years of the Roman Republic (think SPQR, Cicero, and Julius Caesar) and during the early years of the Roman Empire, known as the Principate. Virgil was born in Gaul, so he was a bit of an outsider, but he was educated in Rome. He was on good terms with Octavian, the adopted heir to Julius Caesar (and later the first official emperor known as Augustus). Virgil was a well known writer during his time. Besides the Aeneid, we know of two other texts that he wrote: 'Eclogues' and 'Georgics'. His works are seen as some of the best remaining texts from this period. Additionally, even though the Aeneid was published posthumously, it was a popular hit from the moment it came out.

Historical Context:

The Romans had conquered what we refer to as Ancient Greece a couple of centuries before this, around 146 BCE. Two things are of note here. Firstly, the Romans were obsessed with Greek mythology and culture, but at the same time they usually wanted to show Roman culture as even greater than it. In the Aeneid, Rome is usually shown as the culmination of both the Ancient Greek and Italian world, with Roman culture being the absolute pinnacle on the evolutionary scale.

Secondly, Virgil wrote the Aeneid at time when Rome was settling into a new era. The Aeneid works as a way for the Romans of his day to tie themselves back to the former greatness of Troy. By the time of the early Principate, the Romans had a firm foundation myth in place that mythologized their place in the world – the story of , abandoned twins who were raised by wolves who then founded the city of Rome itself. In the Aeneid, Virgil ties this into his story – Aeneas becomes an ancestor to the twins (alongside some native Italian bloodlines). Aeneas himself was a prince of Troy and the son of the goddess Aphrodite (here known as Venus). During Virgil’s day, the Caesar dynasty (Julius and later Octavian/Augustus) claimed to be directly descended from Aeneas, and thus the gods themselves.

Not to go too deep into politics, but it can be argued that in the Aeneid, Virgil shows where he stands on the political situation of his own day, in support of the Caesar line and the Roman empire. Even though the text is set back in the age of the legendary Greeks and Trojans, contemporary Roman politics from Virgil’s time does find its way into the text. This takes many forms - such as the names of some minor characters sharing a resemblance to the names Augustus' political allies during Virgil's day.

Influences:

Virgil was heavily inspired by actual Greek stories, from the Iliad and the Odyssey to Apollonius’ Argonautica and Euripides' Medea (which we, by happy coincidence, read earlier this year). Certain storylines within the Aeneid, such as Dido's tale, show this influence well. I don't want to spoil you guys (or myself) so I'll leave this thread of thought here for now, but I think it's cool that we might be able to see some of these influences within the work as we read it.

As mentioned earlier, the Aeneid was a hit from the moment it came out. It remained extremely popular throughout the centuries. It's influence on later literature is immense.

Extra Tea:

There is a rumor that Virgil didn’t want to let the Aeneid be published posthumously. Tragically, Virgil died before he finished the work and made this request – possibly to burn the book – on his deathbed. Augustus, however, chose to ignore him and had the book published. We don’t know if the book burning request was true or not, but we do know that the last fifty or so lines of the text were unfinished at the time of his death. Did Augustus do Virgil dirty? We'll never know, but it will be interesting to see if there is a marked difference between the last few lines and the rest of the poem.

The Gods:

Greek : Roman

• Aphrodite : Venus

• Ares : Mars

• Apollo : Apollo

• Athena : Minerva

• Artemis : Diana

• Demeter : Ceres

• Dionysus : Bacchus

• Hades : Pluto

• Hephaestus : Vulcan

• Hera : Juno

• Hermes : Mercury

• Hestia : Vesta

• Kronos : Saturn

• Persephone : Proserpina

• Poseidon : Neptune

• Zeus : Jupiter

I’m preparing to teach teenagers about the Aeneid next school year, and seeing as I’m a History teacher rather than a Classics teacher, and I can barely remember anything about the Aeneid since I first read it ten years ago, I feel a little out of my depth.

A very small question has cropped up which I know the students will ask so I want to be prepared for it. In the translation I’m using, Aeneas refers to “God”. “God will see to it.” “The will of God.” I’m assuming this is him referring to Jupiter, or is this reference to the gods in general? I don’t remember coming across this usage of the word while teaching the Iliad this year, and would hate to gloss over an important reason for why this word has been used.