Wheel of Time

This is a combined thread for newbies and veterans alike. Newbies, after reading the trivia, feel free to share your thoughts on both the trivia and your thoughts on the series as a whole. Veterans, feel free to share your thoughts on the series as well. And both of you, use this thread to finally say hello! Ask questions, comment on the read-along experience, and just generally make the most of it. The remaining posts will also be combined threads.

For more information, or to see the full schedule for all previous entries, please see the for the read-along.

BOOK FOURTEEN SCHEDULE

This week we will be discussing The Wheel of Time, as a whole.

<--- You are here.

Origins of the Wheel of Time: The Legends and Mythologies that Inspired Robert Jordan SCHEDULE

Next week we will be discussing Origins of the Wheel of Time, Foreword, Letter to Readers from the Author, Introduction, Part 1 - The Wheelwright: The Life of Robert Jordan

July 17, 2024: Foreword, Letter to Readers from the Author, Introduction, Part 1 - The Wheelwright: The Life of Robert Jordan
July 24, 2024: Part 2 - The Axle and the Wheel: Tolkien and Jordan
July 31, 2024: Part 3 - The Wheel Turns: Jordan at Work
August 7, 2024: Part 4 - The Real World in The Wheel of Time, Acknowledgements

PREVIOUS TRIVIA

Here are links to the trivia posts for the previous books, in case you missed them:

PROPHECIES

I have compiled a list of all of the prophecies you have encountered to date. It has now been updated with the prophecies from this book. You can find a link to each book's prophecies from . The prophecies are presented as they are found in the books, completely spoiler free, with no comment as to when or if they've been fulfilled.

For those that want to see all of the prophecies, Foretellings, and viewings along side their fulfillment status, check out . Scroll down about halfway to the section called "Into the Future". There you will find links to the various types of prophecies and articles that go in depth about when and how they were fulfilled. details Min's visions and their various fulfillments in a slightly more structured manner.

THE "LAST" BATTLE

I've mentioned it before, but I'll mention it here again: Chapter 37 of A Memory of Light, titled The Last Battle, is, by itself, longer than the entirety of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. This massive length was very intentionally considered by Team Jordan. It works much better as a surprise, but unfortunately, that surprise was impossible to keep for this read-along, especially given the pace we set. Sanderson stated that his intent behind making the chapter to long is that he wanted the reader to feel the same type of exhaustion and fatigue that the characters in the book would be feeling. In my personal experience, this worked out really well. I stayed up late to purchase A Memory of Light during a midnight release, and then I immediately started reading. 20 hours later, I hit The Last Battle and I was already exhausted. I already knew I wasn't going to fall to the "one more chapter" trap, because I was intent on finishing the book before sleeping. However, the chapter kept going and going and I began to feel exactly what Sanderson was going for. At this point, the Wheel of Time is so popular, and that chapter is so infamous, that it's hard to make it to that point and be 100% surprised (though a few of you remained unaware until we reached it). I think the chapter can still occasionally serve its intended purpose, but even if it doesn't do so any longer, I've always appreciated that moment, even if it doesn't really happen anymore on re-reads. A lot of other veterans have talked about similar experiences.

Since The Last Battle is such a pivotal and important event in the entire series, Sanderson wanted to make sure he got the tactics correct. Harriet gave him a large volume of military tactics that Jordan had been using. She pointed out specific historical battles that Jordan had talked about as references for certain battles. Since Sanderson had no personal military experience, he also made use of a couple people who did have combat experience and a familiarity with tactics to advise him on certain aspects of all of the fights and battles that occured in the last three books.

The Last Battle itself was actually based on the ; one of the most important engagements of the Napoleonic Wars. The "good" and "bad" forces were flipped and channelers served the role of artillery. You can visit to see a breakdown of all of the military forces in play. The thread also breaks down the fighting and the positioning of the various battlefields as The Last Battle progresses. put together a outline of The Last Battle. Lastly, if you buy The Companion, the entry for The Last Battle also has a break down of troop movements and some illustrations.

A lot of the individual chapter memes I've shared come from a nearly 2 year long "Memeing every chapter of The Wheel of Time in order" series of posts by . The meme series index can be found . Over time this effort grew and more people were also creating memes for each chapter. Over 200 memes were created just for Chapter 37: The Last Battle. I've created a separate imgur album to share some of those memes.

Last Battle MEMES:

HENRY FORD SAVED THE WORLD

A quick bit of trivia about Callandor. Cadsuane told Rand that Callandor was flawed; that it had no buffer in it to prevent the wielder from being burned out. And also that it amplified the Taint when used, making Rand go a bit crazy during his attempts to use it in both the Stone of Tear (when he tried to resurrect a dead child) and when fighting the Seanchan (where he indiscriminately shot bolts of lightning at both sides of the conflict). This was a hint that Callandor was also a sa'angreal for the True Power. Min's independent research helped her figure out the final flaw with Callandor, that two women could entrap a man wielding it; much in the same way an a'dam entraps female channelers.

Jordan revealed in an interview exactly why Callandor was flawed. It turns out, it was a simple twist of the Pattern. During the War of Power, objects of the One Power were being churned out at a phenomenal rate to assist with the war effort. Jordan described the flaw as being a simple "production flaw" on the assembly line when Callandor was being created. Later, during the start of the Breaking, some Aes Sedai realized Callandor was specifically mentioned in a Foretelling and they built the Stone of Tear to safeguard the weapon for Rand's future use.

ALT.DARKONE

Brandon Sanderson has stated that one of his biggest regrets in writing the final three books is that he thinks he could have come up with a better ending for Padan Fain. The fandom has an almost universal disappointment in what was presented. Fain's ending is very anti-climactic and almost pointless. While Sanderson probably could have come up with a much more climactic ending for him, I do not believe he could have come up with a more "pointful" ending, and I don't think Jordan would have either. This has to do with a long running fan theory, which I will present below. Unfortunately, we don't have any confirmation about this, but to me it makes the most sense, and was speculated upon before Jordan passed.

Throughout most of the series, Rand has struggled with whether he should or could destroy the Dark One. He ultimately arrives at the conclusion that the Dark One is needed for humans to have free will. He opts to reforge the Dark One's prison and return him to his intended purpose. There exists the possibility, however, that Rand could have made a different choice and killed the Dark One. When he grasped the Dark One with the combined three powers of saidin, saidar, and the True Power, he thinks to himself how insignificant the Dark One was and how easily he could crush him.

If Rand did kill the Dark One, disaster would have followed and free-will would have ceased to exist. The Pattern is ever vigilant in its drive for balance and prepared against this disaster. Padan Fain is meant to be a surrogate Dark One. Had Rand killed the Dark One, Fain could be placed in his prison instead to fulfill the same purpose. We've seen Fain change throughout the entire series, becoming less human and more of an entity. His imprisonment outside of time would have ensured that evolution continued until Fain (now Shiasam, which sounds pretty close to Shai'tan...) became a being/entity of complete darkness and evil.

So while Fain didn't have a seemingly interesting and purposeful journey in the book, it does help to consider him a failsafe for the event in which Rand fails to do exactly what he did in the books. There are two very good essays about this that you can read and .

MISS INTERPRETATION

A quick word on Elaida's hubris. Elaida's entire trajectory in life occurred due to a Foretelling she had: She foretold that "the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle". She latched herself onto Morgase and became her advisor. Due to her time away from the Tower to fulfill this role, this missed out on a degree of political power which she always felt she deserved. Largely due to Siuan "losing track" of Elayne, Elaida spearheaded the coup against her, in an effort to find Elayne and secure the "royal line of Andor".

Unfortunately for Elaida, she misinterpreted her Foretelling. Rand, the son of Tigraine, is also part of the royal line of Andor, and that's what her Foretelling pertained to. (Funnily enough, Elayne also played a key role in the Last Battle, as the leader of the forced of the Light. In a way, Elaida wasn't wrong, but her hubris blinded her and made her focus on the wrong things. Check out a detailed presentation of the Andor & Cairhien family trees in .)

Elaida's misinterpretation of her own Foretellings would happen again as Amyrlin. I've already mentioned that Padan Fain brushed her with his dagger and corrupted her to a degree; instilling paranoia against Rand specifically. Even without that though, her confidence in her own Foretellings left little room for her to be reasonable to other interpretations.

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

She was adamant that this meant she would reunite the White Tower and crush the Black Tower. As we eventually read, the Foretelling came true, but not at all in the way she interpreted it.

SING ME A SONG

I was very surprised not to see any reader questions about the Tinker's and the Song that they didn't find in the books. It's a very popular post in by new readers who have just finished the series. The long and short of it is that there is no Song. One of Jordan's notes he left behind stated, "The tinkers never do find their damn song."

The Song is an ideal that as spawned from the overall conceit of the series: that time causes real events to be told as stories, which become myths, which become legends. By the time the Tinkers break away from the Da'shain Aiel, the tales from the Age of Legends had already become just that; legends. The Tinkers believe in a mythological Song that will return the world to the utopia of the Age of Legends. The things is, no such thing exists, and has never existed.

In the prologue of the first book, when Lews Therin runs into Ishamael, Lews Therin asks him if he has The Voice. The Voice is later explained in The Shadow Rising, when Rand goes to Rhuidean. He sees the past of the Aiel and during the Age of Legends, Aiel, Ogier, and some number of humans, had a Talent called The Voice. They used this Talent to sing in fields to produce vasts amounts of crops, which eliminated hunger in this utopian society.

After Veins of Gold, Rand has complete integration with his past life of Lews Therin. By extension, Rand also has the Talent called The Voice. He uses it to grow the apple field at the beginning of Towers of Midnight. He uses it on Tuon, and to grow the grove of trees on the Field of Merrilor. It seems miraculous because he's the only person in the world now that has this Talent (it's even largely faded from the Ogier), but anyone from the Age of Legends would easily spot it for what it was.

The Voice is the seed of the idea of what the Tinkers are truly looking for when they say they are looking for The Song. Loial once said he sang the growing songs to some Tinker and they dismissed him because what they are looking for something that doesn't exist. Time has distorted what they knew though, they don't realize what they are looking for is a Talent called The Voice, not one specific song.

And even if you could impress upon the Tinker this fact, they would not be satisfied. The utopia from the Age of Legends was built upon many different infrastructures that included both advanced weaves and advanced technology, most of which has been lost to time. Even if every Tinker had the Talent of the Voice and began growing crops everywhere, the Age of Legends would not return as it was.

There is no Song and there never was one. This is one of the larger tragedies of the series. If you want to see a super detailed breakdown about the history of "The Song", check out and the associated comments.

IT'S TIME TO TRAVEL

Ever since the time aspects of balefire were explained in The Fires of Heaven, the newbies have been making some wild time travel predictions. I didn't want to stifle them, so I've waited until now to reveal the limits of balefire, which were known to the fandom pretty quickly from interviews with Jordan.

Nine days is about the absolute limit you can revert an event with balefire. It would require a full circle of 72 of the strongest possible channelers, along with both Choedan Kal access keys, Callandor, and everyone else wielding powerful sa'angreal to reach that limit. That limit was never reached in the story, it's more of a theoretical limit that Jordan revealed when asked about it.

IN THE FLESH

The whole question of why it's dangerous to enter the World of Dreams in the flesh goes unresolved in the series. Until the final book, I was of the opinion that this was one of those myths that grew with time. The Forsaken entered T'A'R in the flesh during the War of Power and did evil things, so there was a stigma that grew with it over time. The biggest point against this theory is that when Perrin asks Rand to create a gateway for him into T'A'R, Rand, who now has LTT's full memories from the Age of Legends, also suggests that it's a dangerous request.

I kind of still think it's mostly a myth and this is one of those things that Sanderson got wrong in the overall continuity/mythology of the series (there are a few other points I think Sanderson didn't quite get as well, but this isn't the spot for that). The wolves though, do caution Perrin frequently about being in the dream world too strongly. Ultimately, I think the primary issue is that, without an anchor to the waking world, it's possible that entering too strongly into the World of Dreams, or stepping into it in the flesh, can damage a person's soul.

However, both Perrin and Slayer have some protection against this, which Sanderson revealed after the publication of Towers of Midnight. In that book, Moridin shows Graendal a Dark Prophecy, "Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall" which suggests that Perrin will die. Since Perrin doesn't die, some are left questioning what the prophecy is talking about. It turns out Hopper is the "broken wolf", and he does die. What is hinted at later, but only confirmed and elaborated on in outside interviews, is that Perrin is able to hold onto Hopper's soul, which he imbues into the hammer he forges, Mah'alleinir (which means "He Who Soars" in the Old Tongue).

This detail actually explains how Perrin is able to learn how to jump between the waking world and the World of Dreams. The process requires 2 souls. In Perrin's case, that's Perrin and Hopper. One soul anchors to the real world and protects against the degradation of the soul, while the other soul creates a bridge, letting the body jump into T'A'R. Slayer does the same thing; he is an amalgamation of 2 souls: Isam and Luc.

LET'S PLAY A GAME

I meant to share this at the end of Towers of Midnight, but it got lost in my notes. The game Olver is always playing, Snakes & Foxes, which mimics the mythical interactions adventurers have had with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, has been turned into an actual game. Fans have compiled various rulesets and built out different boards in order to be able to play the game. is printable, with rules, board, pieces, and constructable dice. shows off an alternate version, but unfortunately the site for the rules of that board is gone.

EDIT: found a pdf with the rules for the version in the YouTube video. You can download it .

KEEP IT SECRET, KEEP IT SAFE

When the Wheel of Time finally ended, we were left with a few mysteries. The biggest, and most unknownable one was how Rand lit the pipe, which I delved into in the previous section. Over time, the fandom worked out some of the more obvious mysteries, and I've more or less touched on them in the various trivia posts. When things settled down, Sanderson revealed that there were three big mysteries that he wasn't able to talk about:

Who Nakomi was.
How Rand lit the pipe at the end of the series.
How Rand and Moridin swapped bodies.

The mystery surrounding these three events were kept a mystery at the behest of Harriet. Over time, however, these questions were addressed. I'll touch on the pipe question a bit more in the next section, but this is one of the only truly unknowable aspects of the series. Not even Sanderson knows how it was done, stating, "I put it in as RJ instructed, and I know nothing more about it than fandom does, I’m afraid." Harriet herself doesn't know either, so all we have is speculation.

The body swap was the result of Rand and Moridin crossing balefire streams in A Crown of Swords. The fandom was always pretty certain of this and Sanderson confirmed it eventually. The crossed streams created a connection between the two, and in the epilogue, Sanderson revealed that Jordan's notes stated "the soul that wanted to live found the body that wanted to live and vice versa". Cadsuane was important in getting Rand to hope for the possibility of living beyond the Last Battle, while Moridin wanted things to end. Rand's body was used up and dying, so Moridin's soul drifted into Rand's body and died (he will still be reborn eventually). Rand wanted to live, so his soul drifted into the relatively healthy body of Moridin.

The final mystery of who Nakomi was wasn't revealed until last November, when the Origins book (which we will be starting next week) was published. I'm short on space, so we'll leave discussion of this until we read about it.

Around the time that book was published, Sanderson revealed that he had one final secret, which he would reveal on the 10th anniversary of the publication of A Memory of Light. He held a live stream for the event, wherein he talked a bit more about the previously mentioned mysteries and then made his big reveal: Lanfear is still alive. She, being a master of T'A'R and adept with Compulsion, tricked Perrin into thinking he killed her. This is canon, though seemingly Sanderson's decision, not something outlined by Jordan. I encourage you to watch the to see Sanderson explain how the decision came about. The link is time-stamped to the Lanfear discussion, but if that doesn't work, go to 20:30. The reveal takes about 10 minutes, with another 10ish minutes of additional discussion on the matter. Sanderson stated that he suspects Rand would find out about Lanfear being alive and that's one of the things he would have to deal with, in one way or another.

CECI N'EST PAS UNE PIPE

As mentioned above, both Sanderson and Harriet don't know how Rand lit his pipe in the epilogue. Jordan took that with him to the grave and we will never know for sure. Harriet believes that it was Jordan's way of showing us that the 4th Age will be as different from the 3rd Age as the 3rd was from the Age of Legends. There are some theories that the pipe is a simple ter'angeal and the end is a bit of a troll. Brandon believes that Rand was close to the Pattern and therefore able to affect objects in the real world. Sanderson's theory seems to align most closely with the generally accepted fandom theory.

When Rand first steps into "the place that was not" and confronts the Dark One, the Dark One "attacks" Rand and tells him he is "preparing" Rand. This preparation seems to be get Rand ready and capable to manipulate the raw threads of the Pattern so that they can both show each other alternate realities. These alternate realities were an invention of Sanderson's. When he read Jordan notes for this portion of the book, he said (and Harriet agreed) that it felt more like "The Last Conversation" rather than the Last Battle. The alternate realities were a way to spice up this philosophical duel between the two.

I saw a lot of disappointment with the Rand sections of the Last Battle in the newbie threads. I (playfully) threatened to end the read-along then and there in the veteran threads. A lot of people expected and were disappointed in the lack of spectacle and raw channeling power exhibited by Rand during these sections. Sanderson said that he always knew Rand's battle with the Dark One was going to be more philosophical, that's why he had Rand save Maradon single handedly in Towers of Midnight. That was Rand's big chance to show off his raw strength with the One Power.

The question then becomes, why did the Dark One need to prepare Rand to be able to manipulate the raw threads of the Pattern and have this duel? The theory is that the Dark One needs Rand/The Dragon/The Champion of the Light to be the one to re-write and/or destroy the Pattern and properly released the Dark One from his prison. The Dark One is incapable of doing it, even with excessive use of balefire. Rand has to consciously choose to destroy the Pattern himself.

This actually suggestions the reasoning behind why the Dark One allowed the truce/ceasefire of balefire during the War of Power. He didn't have a good enough grasp on Lews Therin; no hope that the Dragon would help the Dark One destroy the Pattern. The best the Dark One could hope for was to conquer the world and plunge it into despair so that he could then turn LTT. In order to do that, he can't unravel bits of the Pattern with excess balefire.

This time around though, he gets very close to turning Rand. Balefire instability will now serve the Dark One's purpose of helping Rand destroy the Pattern. Sanderson revealed that Demandred was balefiring entire cities in Shara while he was fulfilling their prophecies. He also revealed that Semirhage heavily relied on balefire when she destabilized the Seanchan empire across the ocean. It's likely that Semirhage's balefiring is what cause the balescream that Perrin and Fail experience in Knife of Dreams. (Sanderson confirmed it wasn't Demandred's balefiring that did it, so the assumption is that it was Semirhage's).

So Rand and the Dark One have a duel of philosophical ideals and the Dark One tries to break Rand down further by showing him how the Last Battle is progress; his friends dying. Egwene dies and her soul passes through and offers him encouragement. Sanderson has been extremely cagey on this, but he has teased that it's entirely possible Lan did die during his duel with Demandred, but that Rand was close enough to the Pattern to be able to revive him.

The overarching theory then, is that because Rand was imbued with this ability, and gained the experience of, manipulating the raw threads of the Pattern, that he kept this ability after the Last Battle was over. He wove the threads of the Pattern and created fire inside his pipe.

PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS

Why the hell was Lews Therin Telamon called The Dragon?! I diligently read every book as they were published. I went to midnight release parties, bought the hardcovers, and devoured the entirety of the books before I let myself sleep. I spent 14 books and years hoping and wishing and needing to know why Lews Therin was called The Dragon. I thought at some point maybe Rand would pull a dragon out of his ass and use it to battle the DarK One, and then the books ended, and nothing. Not even a hint. I even asked Brandon Sanderson during one of his many online Q&A's, but due to the sheer number of questions, he never go around to mine (or didn't have an answer himself).

For the longest time, this was one of my biggest pet peeves about the series, and honestly I was a bit bitter about it. For all Jordan's meticulous planning and foreshadowing and detailing in the series, there seemed to be no reason for his title. It came across as just a cool sounding title with no purpose, which made me feel like Jordan was engaging in poor/lazy writing. It's the only aspect of the series I felt that way towards. It would have made just as much sense for Lews Therin to be called The Microchip, and Rand could be The Microchip Reborn, for all the impact and meaning it added to the story.

It took nearly a decade of thinking about this, and putting together snippets of ideas from other members of the fandom, but I've finally come up with a satisfactory reason for it. The concept of a "dragon" is the only bootstrap paradox in the entire series. All other myths and legends have a starting point (e.g. John Glenn actually went into space, and the story gets told so often that it becomes the legend of Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle). The idea of a "dragon" though, doesn't have a beginning.

Rand is called the Dragon Reborn because he is the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon, who was called the Dragon. He was called the Dragon because he was a fierce adversary against the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends. He was given the title of Dragon because he evoked images of the mythical beast we call a dragon. That mythical beast never actually existed though. We only have myths and legends about a creature called a dragon because Rand's influence on the world was so strong that his title, "Dragon" persisted through the Ages and his actions and persona eventually became the creature we know as a dragon.

It's a giant "wheel" (heh) that extends through the Ages with no discernable beginning or end.

RESOURCEFUL

I'd hoped to finish writing up a new resources page for to share with you all, but it's turned into a bigger task than I anticipated. I should have it finished in a few weeks, when we end the read-along, and I'll be sure to share it then.

In the meantime, is the existing resource link we have in 's sidebar. And is a more comprehensive and up to date version.

I did want to leave you with a few essays/articles that I've collected:

is a speculation of what the ending of the Wheel of Time may have looked like if Jordan wrote it, based of the confirmation of what parts Jordan left notes for or wrote directly himself, versus what we know Sanderson made up.
I've previously mentioned the mythical ties the Finn have with the Fae/Fairies. post posits a different mythical parallel.
Robert Jordan was a member of the Freemason "secret" society. outlines some masonic influences in the series.
At the end of The Eye of the World, Ba'alzamon tempts Rand by suggesting he is in control of his adoptive mother's soul (Tam's wife, Kari). explores that topic.
is an in-depth analysis of the mechanics of channeling the One Power.
Crossroads of Twilight is considered the worst Wheel of Time book by a majority of fans. defends the book admirably.
I that addressed the concept of sexism and gender identity in the series.
speculates on what the other Ages may entail.
If you ever wondered what the costuming of the characters looked like, is for you.
elaborates on what the students in Rand's academies were working on.
talks about some continuity issues with Perrin's arc in the final three books.
is a nice character analysis of Galad.
I presented you portions of in a previous trivia post, but now you can read a complete defense of Faile's character.
In I defend Gawyn as a character.

Finished reading the series for the first time

u/indianScammer_

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Finished reading the series for the first time

No Spoilers

"It is done, this task that I have taken upon myself, and yet as I rejoice I am left with a void in my heart, for none like this will ever come again"

I am truly happy that I managed to read this masterpiece before I left this world, it truly deserves in my opinion the veneration as one of the greatest and a true american fantasy classic. It was an amazingly ambitious project made reality, made into a living world that feels almost real with real places and extremely easy to get lost in.

Now it is not without it's flaws of course, as we all know, there are issues, some more blaring than others but in my opinion art is not about perfection and besides, as a whole complete work, it's an amazing story about hope and the struggles of being, and our never-ending fight against hopelessness and despair. Good vs evil, light against the dark, a simple yet deep premise expanded by the myriad of stories and people living in this world. It took me the better part of a year and a half to read this only because I took a short break at PoD to catch up with Sanderson's Cosmere. All in all, I love this, and I am definitely buying the hardcover versions to add to my shelf forever.

I did not predict who the Dragon was.

u/JimothyHickerston

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I did not predict who the Dragon was.

All Print

So I read the series when I was 15. I went into it with no expectations about the world or plot, so everything was fresh. I knew of course that the main character was going to be special. He's the main character of a fantasy story. 😂 But when they said he was ta'veren i was like "cool, that's his thing, it's all clear now." Jordan also made the magic a bad thing that we wouldn't WANT out hero to have, so of course when we found out Rand was special in a second and more dangerous way, i was shocked. Jordan ALSO built up the False Dragons a lot, almost like a subplot, so i thought this was maybe going to be a side-character we meet later (say, in book 3) and that the fate-shaping stuff was Rand's whole deal. In fact I thought "The Dragon Reborn" was going to be a villain, because the False ones had been these maniacal warlords. So of course I was shocked when that final page came and revealed Rand was the Dragon. I just went through Eye of the World NOT putting ANY of the pieces together, and I was still loving the story and world. I just think that's hilarious.

Lord of Chaos - Rants and crackpot theories

u/weanut_peanut

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Lord of Chaos - Rants and crackpot theories

Lord of Chaos

Hi everyone! This isn't like a specific theory post but I kinda wanted to put out some of the more insane theories I've come up with that I have no evidence for and just some rants about things happening in the story.

The Rant:

I'm currently on Chapter 19 and like always I'm absolutely loving this book, and one of the things that's been kinda funny to me is how my perception of Aes Sedai has changed over these books. When I started out in Eye of the World, I looked at aes sedai as almost godlike, all-knowing women, and had incredible respect for them. Now I think they are the biggest group of idiots I have ever seen and are borderline incompetent. They look down on everyone and are so arrogant its driving me insane. Especially that chapter where Rand gets bonded, the fact that Alanna bonds him and then tries to shield him, and then gets mad that rand shielded her back and told her she cant leave is actually mind-boggling.

Arguably just as bad is the chapter with Egwene, her fall off needs to be studied fr. The fact that she comes up to Rand and demands he convince the Wise Ones to let her go back into the dream world, but refuses to tell Rand where Elayne is despite the fact that he needs her to run two countries, then get mad when he won't help her is so arrogant.

The Theories:

Asmodean's killer is Ishamael, only because I think it makes no sense LOL. I know that Asmodean was killed by someone he was surprised to see. We also found out that the Dark One can revive forsaken not killed by Balefire (which I don't think he was killed by, but I don't want to look up in case I am right and it shows that he dies in a later book). And that he was also mentioned by some forsaken this book, and we haven't heard his name in a while.

The foretelling that Nicola says: My guess is that its Elayne, Aviendah, and Min on a boat with Rand after the last battle. The he who dies yet lives is Rand, I think he's going to die but somehow come back to life (blood on the rocks...) and that even after the last battle there will be conflicts. The Return could be the Seanchan, the dark one, or maybe rand as the dragon reborn. And I think the guardians balancing the servants is a balance between male and female Aes Sedai.

I hope it doesn't happen but if Tam Al'thor dies, I think he will become tied to the horn because he's been one of my favs since the beginning!

I don't really necessarily 100% believe in any of these, but they were really fun to come up with and try to justify. It's my Always Sunny in Philadelphia Pepe Silvia moment LOL. Feel free to absolutely crush these theories in the comments!

Ps. My new fav character is Lews Therin in Rand's head. He is so funny <3

How Possible is an MTG Crossover?

u/rastrik

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How Possible is an MTG Crossover?

No Spoilers

In the past few years I've gotten back into both Wheel of Time and Magic the Gathering.

With Magic the Gathering doing all sorts of crossovers with other properties (Lord of the Rings, Fallout, Warhammer 40k, etc.) it makes me hope for a Wheel of Time set. Is this even possible or probable? What roadblocks exist, if any, for this to happen?

[MoL] Just finished A Memory of Light and wanted to share some thoughts

u/goku7144

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[MoL] Just finished A Memory of Light and wanted to share some thoughts

A Memory of Light

I was doing a series of book reviews on each book 5-6 years ago. I did one for every book except the last one, which I forgot to upload. Someone was following along with my reviews and asked for it - and I still had my old review written. So here's my thoughts on the final book - it's quite long

Overall

This is my longest review yet, but I feel like that’s fair as this is the last book and this covers my thoughts on the whole series too.
Also Chapter 37 on audiobook is 9 hours and 4 minutes
I’d like to start with a review on the whole series here which will also touch on the last book. I’ll go over general things then get into each main character.

Overall Good

This series developed their main character and various ethnic groups incredibly well. Rand had one of the best arcs of any fantasy character I’ve ever read, it was clear cut, logical, and progressed very well. The Aiel and seafolk were very detailed and taught me a lot about writing new cultures.
The magic system was well-thought out a defined
The world history was incredibly interesting. The most interesting to me would be what happens later in the 4th-7th ages. What destroys the world so much that we revert back to the 1rst age? As far as I know there isn’t any confirmations on what happens in those ages, although one would think Robert Jordan would have vague notes on what he thought would happen

Overall Bad

The map is terrible. I read online and the map was made as a rush job to send to his editor or publisher (I forget) but I really hate it. It’s just a big rectangle of land. It was so hard to follow the characters journeys as there were no landmarks really to visualize. Ebu Dar is on the coast and Andor is somewhere inland, where? I forget.
Romance is done in some of the worst ways I’ve ever seen. Literally every relationship is built on Love at First Sight. The only relationship that was semi-built into was Mat/Tuon and even that was due in large part becuase fate put them together. I wanted to quit reading sometimes when romance would show up, why did Rand fall for Elayne? Why did Egwene fall for GAWIN!?!? So stupid.
A huge focus was put on the Aiel peoples, but some of the other Randland cultures did feel underdeveloped. As far as I could tell all the borderlands were the same (Saldeans have hooked noses), and what made Andorans unique? The perhaps central area? What visual features or culture was unique about them? The Seafolk also got the 2nd most development but really did nothing for the story. Going back to my first point, if the map had instead been divided into 2 huge chunks with a small ocean between them the Seafolk could have been way more important to the story (And given countries more coastline making them perhaps more distinctive.)
A lot of the side character women felt the same. Even some of the main female characters felt sameish. Everyone was headstrong and would bully to get their way.
Politics were just bad all throughout. Elayne’s succession plotline was terrible and boring. It could have been good if the various houses were built up but way too much time was spent on nonsense and not on plot.
Aes Sedai politics was some of the most boring reading of the books. I get it. They argue and squabble and aren’t as effective as you want us to believe. That doesn’t make it interesting. Their political plotlines are boring too. Compare the series to Game of Thrones. There’s a character named Littlefinger who is a master schemer. When we finally learn what he’s been planning and the little things he’s done, everything makes sense and you get this crazy WOAH moment. Instead, Aes Sedai politics boils down to “I hate that bitch Romanda and will vote against her no matter what.” and that continues for about 2000 pages.
The variety of bad plotlines (Mat getting r*ped in Ebou Dar, Nyneave/Elaynes whole journey, Perrin/Faile’s storylines in the middle books, Aes Sedai politics, Succession arc, and quite a few more) made it hard to continue. I had to play the story at 3x speed to get through it sometimes
The series was a little too black and white. At the end of the day, you either fight for the light or for the shadow. You can go from the light to the shadow, but you can’t go from the shadow to the light. This hurt the series a lot because you never got complicated villains who switched sides. The best we had was Demandred, who maybe could have come to the light to save Chara and the one he loved, and Lanfear, who always seemed 1 step from coming to the light (But her ending made me happy she never did).
Some of the greatest characters in fiction are former bad-guys. But in this world no allegiances were ever tested, if you’re bad. You’re bad. I know the Forsaken are supposed to be selfish, so why couldn’t Demandred have been selfish and flipped sides?
Verrin always fought for good but she was kinda a dark sister so she’s the closest we get (and her reveal was a top 3 moment in the series). Would have been great to have another.
Overall the forsaken were good villains, but not great or interesting villains. The two most interesting were Lanfear, who got the most development and flirted with coming to the light but never did (Which fit her character well) and Demandred, who was a tragic hero who would have made a good traitor to the light instead of staying with the dark.
Every other villain was super 1 dimensional. About half can be written off for never doing anything and after that only Moridin/Ishamael get any kind of development, but to me he still was just a static villain with an interesting backstory. Everyone else was just “Bad guy Number 2”.
The main enemies were too LOTR orc-y for me too. There was some depth hinted at the trollics, how wolf headed ones are smarter, that they have their own language, but that’s never expanded upon in 14 books. They are just walls of meat to throw at the light. It would have been cool to have a Trollic with sentence explain more about their people. I just don’t personally like races that exist to be bad with nothing else to them.
Prophecy was overly utilized in this series. Sometimes it was a little too direct too, some of Min’s viewings were super easy to understand and figure out what was going to happen even when the story tried to be vague. Other times Min would just straight up say what the viewing meant and there was nothing that could be done. It felt a little lame that prophecies were bound to happen, there was no way to avoid them, and sometimes they were very simply completed. Prophecies should be rare in my opinion and their completions should never be too direct.

Final Book Overall thoughts

The epilogue should have been longer. When you have SO MANY characters in a series, I want to know what happens to them. What about the plot points that are just never resolved too?
Jump ahead 2 years and have just 40 pages of Perrin in a forge thinking about life. How the white tower is doing. How Seanchan relations are going. If the Aiel went back to the Waste or are living mostly in the wetlands now. How the side characters are doing, Wil al’Seen settled down, Danniel Lewin joined the black tower now led by Logain, Tam has taken over the village defenses, Mat is with the Seanchan who’s entire society is in peril as they learned it was based on lies.
And then finishing it off with Perrin thinking about how he hopes Rand returns from his adventures one day so Perrin can show him what he’s built. And if he doesn’t, then Perrin will have to use the wolf dream and find him.
Oh and Hurin survived and moved south to the two rivers. It was just the dark one tricking Rand. And Hopper was among the hero wolves when the horn was blown. Brigitte shouldn’t have been able to be reborn, but she was, so why shouldn’t Hopper be able to?
Fain’s ending was terrible. It seems like everyone agrees on that so I won’t say much more. I remember reading that Jordan didn’t leave any notes on what to do with him, which makes sense as after book 3 or 4 it seemed like he didn’t know either. He had made this villain who had 0 allies and 0 abilities, but needed to be dangerous somehow. Either way it was all a waste. Should have died earlier
The final battle scene was awesome but Dumais Wells was the height of the series.
After contemplation the final battle was actually lacking in many places too. Too much handwaivey “Now regiment 34 will go left and squad 74 will take their place.” Then people going “Wow incredible.” There wasn’t enough mentions on troop numbers, general battle strategy, the terrain of the fight, and a lot more. It was just kinda “Awesome kill sweet Trollics die.”
It also apparently lasted over a month which makes no sense. Constant fighting for a month is impossible. The Trollics/Sharans would have destroyed the light. Also Trollics and Myrddraal turned into such jobbers, book 1 they were terrifying and even Lan fled from a faceless one. Book 14 and Lan kills 2 without a thought. Trollics are supposed to be 10 feet tall and covered in muscle, their weakness is how cowardly they are, but that weakness doesn’t matter when there are millions of them. It never felt right that humans ever could fight them 1 on 1. If you’re average height in this world, which is likely shorter than nowadays and could be equated to medieval europe heights, you would be about 5’6. How could someone 5’6 EVER fight a creature twice their height and likely 4 times their weight??? Just reach at that point comes in, if the Trollic just has a huge sword they would win no matter what.

Rand

The final battle entrance scene. 4 of the original 7. The other 3? Off leading huge chunks of the armies of man. Insane that THOM of all people is in the final battle party.
I will still say that Darth Rand was the best version of Rand. Jesus Rand was kind of boring tbh. He knew too much and was too powerful.
I know that Darth Rand wasn’t sustainable. His insanity and lack of control would kill him. But seeing him threaten Cadsuane with literally changing reality to kill her was the most badass scene of perhaps the series. His scenes where you see that being Ta’Veren wasn’t just a cop-out for plot armor, but actually unintentional compulsion, was insane. How he crushed people’s wills with his own.
How he was always a drawn knife, ready to destroy whoever. Balefire nuking an entire castle to kill one person. Jesus fucking christ. Some of the greatest most terrifying scenes I’ve ever read and his decent there was so well done too. He was by far the best developed character and I wish he had retained some of that instead of becoming Jesus.
His revelation was interesting too. That life needs the dark one to function.
His ending was good, although I couldn’t help but that that Rand has already BEEN everywhere. I’ve seen a map of the world, all that's left are a few Randland countries, Shara, Seanchan (Which admittedly is massive), and the land of Madmen.
Also he can bend reality now which is cool. In a fanfiction world he may have just becoming living god. Maybe he’ll stick around through the ages just to see what happens.

Perrin

Gaul is a badass. He’s been Perrin’s ally since book 1 and now they fought the final fight together. Gaul because Perrin’s number 2, his bodyguard, and one of his best friends.
Their relationship has been my favorite built in this whole series. I have a huge soft spot for people developing loyalty and friendship to each other throughout a series. I like it more than the romance, which is just love at first sight. But to become friends? You have to respect each other, like each other, and spend time with each other. Gaul and Perrin did that and became true bros. Perrin saying bye to Rand brought a tear to my eye too. He then helped Rand in so many ways that Rand doesn’t even know. Doing what Rand couldn’t. I wish that had been touched on more in the middle books.
Perrin should have killed Dain Bornhald. He stood by and watched as someone butchered Perrin’s family, man, woman, and child. I hope every single one white cloak died in the final battle and that Galad gives up their order. They shame a man and try to sentence him to death for fighting to defend himself in battle (Perrin), but have no issue murdering children. And kinda fuck you Galad, you should have punished him.
And if you had told me in book 1 that the quiet blacksmith would have the best fights of the whole series, culminating in the coolest fight, in a dream world I would have laughed. It is power creep, but the GREAT kind of power creep. He slowly developed his prowess in the wolf dream until he was able to fight a near god of that world and kill him.
Fucking Perrin dealt with multiple Forsaken and Slayer by himself (And Gaul). He’s lowkey the main hero of the story. He’s not the dragon reborn, he doesn’t have the memories of past lives, he’s just a normal dude with wolf powers who will do what is needed.
PERRIN EVEN KILLED LANFEAR!!! I love his line “I have to do what Rand can’t.” as he then did what Rand never could, kill Lanfear and save the world.
He’s so fucking loyal. Always there for his friend. Been helping since day 1, never questioned Rand or doubted him, just did what was asked of him. I love Perrin.
And also the final fight is over but Perrin can still teleport around lol. No longer Ta’veren but still semi-godlike.

Mat

14 books in and he’s still a rascal breaking into palaces
Mats also the funniest character by far. “How's the white tower? Still… white? I guess.”
I think the deathwatch guard also saw him talking with Hawkwing, their god, as a casual friend. Hawkwing even knew his name. He has to be a walking god to them now. I wish we had gotten to see that but it was never touched on again.
He got Tuon pregnant too lol. No one in this series knows how to pull out. I wish they had talked about how Mat knew Hawkwing though.
Apperently “On the offscreen conversation between Tuon and Hawkwing: “It was interesting, I’ll tell you that much.” From Bandon Sanderson. Its really a cop out. Like “That scene was so fucking cool, wish you coulda seen it, but oh well.”
Still upset that there are SO MANY unanswered questions about Seanchan. I get that everything can’t be answered but it pisses me off that we had a 5 page bath scene where Avienda wouldn’t stop thinking about how much water was being used, and not a 5 page scene of Tuon meeting her god and what he tells her.
Overall his character has been very interesting all throughout and being the commander of the final forces of man was awesome. Of the main 3 guys though he did probably have the least development, in large part because he didn’t want to grow up.

Egwene

It is crazy seeing her and Rand debating. They were childhood near married and now they are the two most powerful people on the continent.
When Egwene said she trusted Lan with her life it reminded me that they were part of the original 7. Those 2 probably had the least amount of interactions but Lan is such a solid, dependable, honest, trustworthy dude that everyone trusts him with their lives.
So in a surprising turn of event SHE killed Taim, killing her in the process. Although I’d like to put all the blame of the worst character Gawin, she kinda needed to draw in more than she could handle. Taim had the 2nd strongest (Now strongest) Sa’angreal in existance. If she hadn’t the war would have been lost as Taim wasn’t just going to wait for Rand.
I still have issues with her character, namely her extreme hypocracy and self richousness. She has had the coolest moments of the three main girls (Final battle and defending the white tower) but I hated when she would interact with people, especially her friends. She always acted like she was smarter and better than everyone because she could channel and had been given her position because she wasn’t fit for it. That meant she could talk down to everyone, especially Rand who was too stupid to see that she (The same physical age as him) was so much wiser and smarter than him, the jesus of their world. She ignored the fact that he was the dragon reborn and had access to hundreds or even thousands of years of memories because “We can’t break the seals because I know best!!!!!” Shut the fuck up. So tired of hearing about how “The white tower would need to control him.”
She did die a hero though. It’s only because of her and the changes she’s made to the white tower structure (Letting in anyone who wants) that the white tower will even survive. Hopefully all that new blood of people older than 18 who know more about the world will get the White Tower off it’s high horse.

Gawin

So happy he’s finally dead. His suicidal charge wasn’t to “Help the world”. It was for himself. It was for his need to be important. To be something. To be the hero. He’s always been number 2, his whole life it’s been “Elayne’s the Queen and Galad’s the better of the two brothers. The better swordsman, more attractive, so on.” he’s never really mattered. So it’s understandable, but also selfish and stupid.
I thought his whole character journey was for him to understand he didn’t need to be the main hero, he could just be a hero to Egwene and that was okay. But nah, he had to suicidally charge in, blowing all that up, and devestating Egwene and pushing her over the edge. Egwene should have given up him bond.
I was also so scared Gawin’s dumbass self would tell Demandred that “The Dragon isn’t here.” Giving Demandred reason to just blow up everyone and leave.
Even Demandred not killing Gawin and then Gawin escaping wasn’t enough to save his stupid plan.
He was just a bad character. I see what Robert Jordan wanted to do with him, he’s like a main hero of legend without being the hero (Prince of a kingdom, Trained from birth, so on). In another world maybe he would have even been the Dragon Reborn. He has some Parallels to Demandred in that way which is interesting to think about. He was always filled with anger, hated the Dragon Reborn, wanted to be more. But I guess his love for Elayne and Egwene kept him from going to the dark, so he was just an idiot.

Nyneave

Fell in love with her again. Hated her from books 3-7, she boned Lan, loved her again. She was strong willed while still accepting her faults. She was loyal, loving, and helpful. She was everything an Aes Sedai should be, without what they are.
My favorite female character by far. I loved her. I loved how she cried as Rand died. I loved how she was there for him in the final fight. How she was always there for him at his worst and just wanted to help. Sometimes she tried to manipulate him, but it did come from a place of compassion.
Great character and will miss her. Best development of any of the female characters. She started out as a brash woman trying to assert her place in the world roughly, but by the end had accepted it and just wanted to help where she could.
I hope she becomes the next Amyrlin after Cadsuane (Especially with her record of healing the taint, madness, stilling, compulsion, and fucking everything).

Elayne (Pretty long Rant. Can skip if you want)

So I’ve been pretty clear I’ve never liked her character. Why did she get control of the forces of the light? Oh yeah, cause she’s boning the Dragon Reborn. There was almost 0 reason to give Elayne control of the armies. When I think battle commander, I don’t think Elayne. I don’t think she’s led men in battle EVER. It just pissed me off because IN THE TENT were 2 great generals and 2 more outside, and a fellow ta’veren is a 5th, but Elayne got control.
I’ve complained for review on review about Elayne just GETTING things. An incredibly small amount of her accomplishments were deserved, most are just given to her for story purposes, and this is an extreme one. It pissed me off to no end to hear Rand giving her control of humanities armies. The incredibly brash, arrogant, hasty, Elayne who has never led men in battle was given control of their million man army. What a stupid fucking thing to do book 14. Why not give it to Bashere who had been loyal every book? Or Ituralde, another super loyal person? Or Agelmar, Gareth Brin, Mat? Perrin? Or, I don’t know, ANYONE ELSE!!!! Someone who deserves it, someone who’s been fighting for you since their introduction, who has experience fighting Trollics, and who knows war. But Elayne got control.
His reasonings were fucking stupid too. She's literally 20, at the most, and his excuse? She was trained by a great general (WHO IS LITERALLY OUTSIDE AND COULD BE IN CHARGE INSTEAD).
The only real large-scale battle she’s been involved in? She was locked in a trunk and Bridgette led the fight. The following fight in Calmylin? Bridgette led that too and her enemy basically GAVE her the victory. She has 0 right to be the leader. 14 books of Elayne just being shit.
Holy shit I just can’t get over it. I know that later on we find out “Oh hey, it was actually a good decision as Graendal was manipulating them.” But at the time 4 of the greatest military minds alive are within arms reach and you give it Elayne? Because she was born to be queen and was basically given the throne by her enemies incompetence and Dyelin not wanting it. Iteralda literally just finished fighting off hundreds of thousands of Trollics with an extremely smaller force and you don’t say, “Iteralda is in charge, or Davrim Bashir, or Mat, or even Gareth Brin could do it I guess. They are all around here.”
Just took me right out of the story with its stupidity. I thought this series was trying to be realistic sometimes. She’s never shown the ability to be a general or had the temperment for one. But she’s given charge of the largest army ever in the most important battle in milenia. Alright.
Maybe Rand just knew that the story bent around her and gives her unearned victories.
Then it turns out that, unlike what we’ve seen Elayne do for 14 books, she doesn’t meddle and just leaves everything up to other people. I will say I did like how she talked the Aiel down and forced them to stop being so stubborn and accept that they needed help.
I just never felt that her character grew into this. At no point did I ever feel like she was a good or competent leader. She started the series a child with sheltered world views and her goal was to become better and fix those. She never really did, other than growing a fouler mouth. She was still just as arrogant, just as sheltered, and never really accomplished anything on her own.
Her whole story arc should have been leading to this. Her making progressively better and better decisions, deciding to NOT rush into everything, understanding her limitations, outsmarting her enemies rather than relying on them making mistakes. But it never happened. It felt hollow when she got her biggest responsibility of the series and felt undeserved. Her character arc has been weak and probably the worst of the series.
When Perrin and Tam are talking about Elayne’s leadership and praising her it felt so out of place. “She has a good head for warfare” said Tam. “Yes, she listens to what others say and doesn’t interfere.” Perrin says. “Being a leader is sometimes not about knowing what to do, but stepping out of the way for people that do.” When has that EVER been Elayne!! It can’t be both ways. You can’t have 13 books of her being rash and undisciplined, making bad decisions and meddling everywhere, and having it be done because she’s “Pregnant, young, and has an shallow worldview” then flip it around book 14.
If you built into that over 13 books sure, but you didn’t. Literally last novel you had her making hasty decisions that lost lives and doing what she wanted rather than listening to others.
Her story arc has been terrible and she was my least favorite character of the whole series. She dragged down large chunks of the novels and I don’t know why she was made a main character but never developed. She started as an unlikable royal brat and just kinda stayed that way.
I just really hated when she became queen and continued to be so hasty and got herself kidnapped. Then hundreds died, charging 6 channelers to save her, and she doesn’t really care. Thousands of loved ones were impacted, wives without husbands, children without fathers, because she couldn’t wait for Brigette and wanted to be independent. Never forgave her for that.
Her character arc should have been about her growing to care for the little people. For those who can’t defend themselves. Not throwing lives away just cause. So many people died in her haste and she never gave a shit, never thought twice about those guards killed by the black Ajah as they fled, just forgot they existed.
Good characters, good leaders, are plagued with thoughts of how their actions impact their men. They still make the tough choices, but they hate making them. As they say, “Death is lighter than a feather, Duty Heavier than a sword.”
Also JESUS CHRIST THEY NEARLY CUT HER CHILDREN OUT OF HER STOMACH!!!! Her children would be born healthy… if that can be considered healthy. Brigitte’s warning of “You don’t have to be okay for them to be.” came true.

Loial

He has come so far. From a boy who wouldn’t hurt anyone, who was incredibly saddened for having to kill a trollic, to defending the two rivers, to gaining the allegiance of the Ogier for his friends, to then leading them into battle. His arc has been incredible. “He saw fear in their eyes and he loved it.” INCREDIBLE!! “Let them fight someone their own size.” A king.
My only wish is that he hadn’t been reduced to a background role in these final 7 books. He was a member of the original party. He is one of Rand’s only true friends. But he kinda just became “The Ogier dude” and was always off on quests and away from the group.
Happy he finally got to write his book too. In my headcanon Rand finds him later and fulfills his promise to Loial to tell him what happened.

Lan

I think the first gay male character showed up in his sections too. I don’t think there’s been another. Sometimes the Aes Sedai talk about “Bed friends” but theres never been a gay male character. Just kinda interesting in a series where everyone has a true love.
Lan also has his coolest moment and kills Demandred.
Just a cool character and happy he lived and will be happy with Nyneave. A true friend to Rand.

Misc / Final Battle / White Tower / Black Tower / Olver

Androl was a cool character, Gateways are WAY underutilized (Gareth Brinn is only starting to understand) so I’m happy someone understands how powerful they are. I do wish he would have just OPENED one on top of people, bisecting them. He seemed to know they could cut things open.
His plotline did take away from Logain though. Logain surviving 11 days of what broke others in less than 1 was awesome, but it felt like he should have done more. His ‘glory’ viewing had been built up for like 11 books and he never really got a huge courageous moment. Kinda disappointing.
NOEL IS A HERO FROM THE HORN!!!!! LITERALLY AMAZING!!!! Tears came to my eyes. It makes sense too given how he’s such a hero to so many people in life.
Olver’s line about “He had lost so many people, but one, one came back” then made those tears flow
I think Olver was supposed to be Gaidal Cain. I’ve thought that for awhile just based on how often they mention he’s ugly and that Gaidal was ugly. I know Brandon Sanderson said he isn’t but that’s kinda stupid so I’m gonna ignore it.
Iteralda’s also the most badass general. Deciding to go to Sha’al gool. Then his no good, awful, terrible, day just got weirder when he was kidnapped by wolves for his own good.
Holy shit Suan and Brinn died. That made me really, incredibly, sad. I thought she may get back to Brin and live but no. God her ending was abrupt too. Just alive, then dead. Jeez. Brin is later off screened too
Cadsuane later becomes Ameryln which fits I guess, although she was a failure in every way. 7 books of her failing with Rand to where she nearly killed them all. Kinda a stupid character.
Bella running made me cry. Bella dying made me cry more. Been there since book one probably chapter 1. And she’s been a loyal hero the whole time. Then finding out by reading the wiki that Bela wasn’t dead, and went off to live a happy life made me cry again. She deserves it.
HARRNIN AND VANNON (Spelling) COME TO SAVE THE DAY!!! I KNEW THEY WEREN’T DARK FRIENDS!! THEY ARE JUST IDIOTS!!!
I loved the thort scene of Danniel Lewin thinking about how life would be if he had gone with the 3 boys at the start of the series. It was humanizing. Someone thinking “I could have been something too…” It’s something easy to relate and understand.
It was made even better when I read about the stories production and he was actually supposed to be the 4th member of their trio lol

Demandred

The Sharan showing up on the was a crazy surprise, but to be honest I felt like it could have been developed better. I had to google who the Sharan even were and, upon finding out, had a ‘holy shit’ moment. But I probably shouldn’t have needed to read the wiki to figure out who they were. Maybe a few more mentions scattered throughout the last 2 books to remind readers that Shara exists.
But JESUS CHRIST DEMANDRED!! GOD DAMN DUDE!!!!!! Holy shit, like I knew he was always doing something, but Jesus fucking christ!!! He went to the people past the waste and dominated them!!! It blows my mind with how smart it was, he didn’t try and mess with any people in Randland, he didn’t go to Seanchan, he went and dominated a country NO ONE THOUGHT ABOUT! Absolutely insane. Top tier reveal rivaling Verin.
I can’t get over it. That was such an amazing twist. I never EVER even considered it. I thought the Sharan people weren’t going to be in the story, that mentioning them was a worldbuilding thing, that they were like the Chinese to Medieval Europe. But no, Demandred just ignored the main continent and went after Shara.
And what an entrance. IMMEDIATELY killing Romanda. He then goes on to kill MULTIPLE POV characters. Not just side nobodies, but POV CHARACTERS!!! I don’t think any other forsaken have done that.
Perhaps the most interesting Forsaken, although we saw little of him. He almost came to the light. He had friends, someone he loved and whom he loved back, but his anger never let him come to the light.
That kind of felt like a waste and stretched my suspenson of disbelief. The forces of good were already stressed, now hundreds of more soldiers and probably a million more men (As Shara is as big as Randland) doesn’t immediately turn the tides completely?
In my opinion it would have been cool if he flipped sides, helped the light, and made the fight more even instead. Now its 2 million soldiers vs. the millions of trollics. And it would have given us a forsaken betrayal, something we hadn’t ever seen.
We never really got to see the full strength of a 72 man circle either. He also had the strongest Sa’Angreal in existance and didn’t really use either. That was super disappointing and made me a little upset. Why, when Rand just hadn’t shown up after a month of battle, didn’t he just start blowing everything up and force him to come out?
Then he could have gone, “Lews Therin! Shall we fight one on one or see who is the better general!” And when Rand doesn’t come out, he just kill everyone and leave.
He was too powerful for the story really. Really stretched my suspension of disbelief how the shadow didn’t win the battle there after a month plus (Which is stupid as no battle constantly goes for over a month).
I also like how apparently everyone thought that he was masquerading as Taim and that it was so obvious Robert Jordan ended up changing it. It’s just a theory, but it makes sense, because even I thought he was in charge of Taim or something so the twist was great. Here’s the link to the theory
Lan killing him was cool though, but still like I hate having to rely on the enemy being incompetent or overly arrogant for the hero to win. It feels unearned. Give me a loss where he doesn’t just die because of a dumb decision to not nuke whoever challenged him.

Forsaken

Now onto the main villains. The kinda disappointing Forsaken. And jesus some lived. Even though they were all captured and put under control. Although Seanchan having access to a forsaken is likely what sets off the hundreds of years of death and destruction Aviendha sees so that isn’t a good thing.
I respected Demandred more than any forsaken. Out of all the incompetent morons that make up the Forsaken, he was the only smart one. He planned. He built up his forces and got shit done. He did what the dark one wanted and built up ANOTHER army for the dark one to use on the forces of man. And he never died (Expect his final death).
He went from forgettable forsaken into the most terrifying in a few books. To me, he’s an even more dangerous villain than Moridin. He prepared better than any of them. The rest of the forsaken look like childish idiots now.
I really thought Lanfear might switch sides, but in the end her greed and lust for power were stronger than anything. It fit the character so I won’t complain.
Gonna rank the Forsaken real quick. It’s based on personality, effect on the story, how effective they were, and general coolness. I’ll put reasonings below for ease of reading

Rankings

Top Tier: Lanfear, Morridin, Demandred, Mazrim Taim
Middle Tier: Graendal, Semirhage, Moghedien, Asmodean
Bottom Tier: Balthamel, Be’lal, Mesaana, Rahvin, Aginor, Sammael

Top Tier

Morridin - Early villain and final villain. Very interesting past. Could go on for awhile.
Lanfear - Could I put her anywhere else? Constantly shifting loyalties, actually smart, been there the longest, biggest effect on Rand, interesting personality, and cool death. Woulda liked to see if she could be good after Rand opened up to her, but was cool that she stuck to her guns and was evil.
Demandred - Perhaps the best twist of the series, the one who actually did their job as a forsaken, never died, built up an army, and was influential in the final battle.
Mazrim Taim - The only modern-day Forsaken. Someone who worked with Rand to build up his army, and someone who was very interesting to me all story with what side he was on.

Middle Tier:

Graendal - interesting character. She had so many schemes, so many POVs, and all of it basically amounted to nothing. But she was among the last 5 left alive so that counts for something. Better than her pal Sammael and actually was influential in the final battle even with all her plans failing.
Semirhage - I hated her. Her actions were all off-screen but I hated her more than any forsaken. So I put her here. She almost had Rand too, but the question is, did the Dark Lord set her up? He’s shown he doesn’t want Rand captured, so why would he help her capture him?
Moghedien - A pathetic forsaken. Captured early on, taught the heroes traveling (Which was a huge part in the dark one losing, and then just whimpered around for 9 or so books. But, she had a huge effect on the story, and her time as a slave to Nynaeve was interesting. She will also likely lead to another world war as a Seanchan slave. So she’s mid-tier.
Asmodean - An incredibly interesting forsaken. If he hadn’t died book 5 he would probably be top tier. A forsaken forced to join the good guys? It made for very interesting reading as you wondered what his plans were and if he could really join the light. But then he just died.

Bottom Tier:

Balthamel - Forgot he was even a character, died book 1, came back, and I just forgot about him. I don’t even know if he did anything noteworthy.
Be’Lal - I actually forgot he was in the story. Died earliest perminately I think (Balefired) and I forget if he even did anything.
Messana - Showed up for 1 fight, got wrecked, and everything else was off-screen. Yeah she divided the tower, but it didn’t amount to anything much as they came back together. And that was even on the back of Morridin’s work a thousand years ago when he made the black Ajah. Can’t really rank her higher as she was never in the spotlight really.
Rahvin - Went after the wrong kingdom and got smacked in the teeth lol. He did basically nothing and had very little effect on the story. His only notable achievement was being the first Forsaken to be killed by Rand and to force Elayne to become queen.
Aginor - A very interesting past (He made all the creatures of the dark) but a terrible modern day character. Died book 1, then died again book like 11. He did literally nothing but be creepy and live on past accomplishments.
Sammael - Just disappointing to me. He was built up as this great general, someone who was a real threat to Rand, and then his downfall came from a 1 on 1 (Later 1 on 2) fight scene at the end of book 7 where he was then off-screen killed. Probably could have been mid-tier if he hadn’t gone out so disappointingly and had such little effect on the books.

Finally scenes I wish I could have seen, and plotlines I wish were resolved

Rand appologizing to Hurin
Gaidal Cain ending up being Olver
Mat/Perrin/Rand all catching up and interacting
Rand and Loial catching up
What happens with the Seanchan? Their way of life was just put on trial as Egwene let everyone know the truth, will they follow the dragon’s peace? The Aiel have their own Forsaken to teach them lost talents so maybe they will survive.
What happens to the main characters a few years down the line
Rand returning to his closest and dearest friends (Loial, Perrin, Mat, Thom, Tam, Nyneave, so on). Explaining he’s alive and then going off. Kinda shitty to just not let them know.

There’s probably more I’m not thinking of but that’s my final thoughts. Been a great journey although I’ve complained sometimes, still loved the story and happy I read it. I see why its so highly regarded. Thank you all for reading these and interacting with my posts, its very interesting to see what others think.

Now, there’s just the wait for the show to drop and to force my friends to check it out. Praying its good, but that’s a whole other post.

New to wheel of time.

u/SecondRealPerson

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New to wheel of time.

The Eye of the World

I just started reading EotW. I often forget characters or their roles. Is there a way for me to remeber them between my long intervals.

The problem is I rarely have peaceful reading time. That makes me forget stuff vital to stories. Please help.

Book vs show question(possible spoilers)

u/Routine-Progress5963

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Book vs show question(possible spoilers)

TV - Season 2 (Book Spoilers Allowed)

Hey, I'm someone that's gotten into the series through the show and wanted to try the books but I was curious about something. From the first season, they make it pretty obvious that Rand is the dragon reborn but the other characters seem to think that any one of the five could be. I was wondering, did the books make it clear Rand was the dragon reborn from the start or was there's some ambiguity on which one of them it was at the start? Also, were Nynaeve or Egwene really considered candidates? I thought they knew the dragon reborn was going to be a man but I'm not sure. Anyway, thank you for your time and I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I just got curious and don't really have the free time to dive into the books just yet.

Big bounce theory and freeing the Dark One

u/Nikname666

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Big bounce theory and freeing the Dark One

All Print

I've been thinking about the possibility that the DO has been freed before, the pattern destroyed and it doesn't make sense that the pattern would be destroyed forever. Yes, the current multiverse would be broken, but can't the creator just put the DO back into its prison and start anew? Am I missing something?

Approaching Tar Valon (me, watercolour)

u/aeddub

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Approaching Tar Valon (me, watercolour)

No Spoilers

The first person I convinced to read the entire book series hated the first season of the TV show. I really want her to watch season 3 with me, so I convinced her to give episode 1 of season 2 a chance. This is what she thought...

u/ElliotW-C

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TV - Season 2 (Book Spoilers Allowed)

[xpost] I'm starting a new WoT game, see within for details

u/Jellz

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[xpost] I'm starting a new WoT game, see within for details

No Spoilers

https://old.reddit.com/r/lfg/comments/1e3bvcw/onlineotherdd3xbiweekly_6pm_mstlgbtq18_im_looking/

I made some Wheel of Time characters in the Elden Ring character creator (FINAL)

u/reddit_account_10001

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I made some Wheel of Time characters in the Elden Ring character creator (FINAL)

All Print

Question about tower of Ghenjei

u/Skeya34

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Question about tower of Ghenjei

Towers of Midnight

There’s something I don’t get and don’t want to search online because of the spoilers as it’s my first read through (I already got spoiled what I presume is the most shocking death)

It’s said in the letter that to get Moiraine out, they need to break the rules.

Why do they associate fire, music and iron with breaking the rules ? Is it something that is said in the previous books ?

Maybe I’m just meant to find out by reading, but I just got confused cause they make it seem like it’s obvious

Has there ever been a Community Vote for the Ranking of the Books??

u/CheesecakeEconomy878

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Has there ever been a Community Vote for the Ranking of the Books??

No Spoilers

I feek like there aren't a lot of rankings of the Wheel of Time out there, it'd be cool if someone on social media initiated community votes for the ranking so we can see what is the general consensus.

(Though i'm pretty sure Shadow Rising is the best and Crossroads of Twilight is the worst)

Where are you at on your current read/listen through?

u/Raider_3_Charlie

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Where are you at on your current read/listen through?

No Spoilers

First Sea Folk Cast Member Uncovered for The Wheel of Time

u/Magister_Xehanort

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SPOILER

First Sea Folk Cast Member Uncovered for The Wheel of Time

TV/FILM LEAKS (Book Spoilers Allowed)

https://www.wotseries.com/2024/07/12/first-sea-folk-cast-member-uncovered-for-the-wheel-of-time/

Watch the first 2 seasons or start Book One now?

u/adoseth

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Watch the first 2 seasons or start Book One now?

The Eye of the World

I'll add this will be my first jump back into fantasy. Last things I've read are a bit of urban fantasy (Steelheart) and japanese manga.

Quote for my brother

u/Steveirwinsghost7

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Quote for my brother

All Print

Hi all. My brother died unexpectedly at 20 a few days ago. He loved the WoT series, and had read all the books front to back. I think I’d like to read a quote from one of the books at his funeral. Does anyone have a good recommendation?

First time through!

u/Jedi_Master_Shrek

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First time through!

A Memory of Light

Alright folks, it’s been a pleasure avoiding spoilers and discussing the series in this sub for the last 8 months, I’m officially done with AMoL! Obligatory rankings for me below. Before that, I have a few questions I was hoping someone could help me with:

There was a brief line in AMoL when they were fighting in Thakandar and someone (I think Perrin?) sees a snake like person fighting for a brief moment. It seemed like they were describing an Eelfinn…was that like a brief look at the Last Battle being fought in their world? Am I misunderstanding that line? Also sorry I don’t have the exact quote, I already dropped AMoL back off at the library.
What happened to Shaidar Haran? I expected him to show up at the Pit of Doom so just am a bit confused by who/what he was.
Last question, can someone explain to me how Rand transferred himself into Morridin’s body? Maybe that was left open ended on purpose but curious on what theories there are out there.

My WoT Book Rankings:

A Memory of Light
The Gathering Storm
Towers of Midnight
The Fires of Heaven
The Path of Daggers
The Shadow Rising
The Great Hunt
Lord of Chaos
Eye of the World
A Crown of Swords
Winter’s Heart
Knife of Dreams
The Dragon Reborn
Crossroads of Twilight

My thoughts after finishing the gathering storm.

u/lorien_powers

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My thoughts after finishing the gathering storm.

The Gathering Storm

Ngl i liked dark rand. Some parts made me sad. But overall i kinda loved it. I do wish rand had more people that followed him because he was a good leader (like Perin and Matt) but i guess thats not in it for him.

Matt. What can i say. By far the best character atm. I love Rand but Matt has something special.

Egwennes pov has been pretty good since she got captured by the white tower. Tho i hate how she told the rebels to say sorry. And acted all high and mighty that she didnt need to do it. (I know she did tell the sitters she also failed but still).

Huge respect to verin what a hero. And also loved it so much. Cant imagine the risks she had to take to gather that all.

Rand reuniting with his dad was sweet and painfull. But im gonna be honest. Him nearly killing himself because there was no point since the wheel would spin again anyways to suddenly being happy and able to forgive himself felt weird to me.

Also he was as hard as Cuendillar so that he couldnt get hurt anymore and he was able to do what he thought he had to do. I dont see how that suddenly dissapears now that he has forgiven himself. But i might habe missed something

Shower thought re: EOTW

u/Rapscallion84

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Shower thought re: EOTW

All Print

I found this quite cumbersome to search for online so apologies if it’s been already answered.

We know that the Eye of the World is a literal pool of untainted sadin, a physical manifestation of the One Power, which Rand uses to devastating effect at the climax of the story. This seems like an incredibly useful technique for generating ‘reserve power’.

Do any Aes Sedai (or any channeller) ever again attempt to store the One Power in this way as a kind of battery? If not, is there a reason why or is it just never addressed?

Question about the last battle

u/Poncho1809

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Question about the last battle

A Memory of Light

This contains spoilers up to the end of memory of light. So Alanna’s wounded, Nyneave’s in a circle unable to direct the One Power towards her. Is there any reason she couldnt grab stored One Power from her terangreal to heal her? I thought she 100% was going to 🤧

Audio cassette

u/Aquaman258

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Audio cassette

The Eye of the World

Side Characters who made appearances later on

u/Unique_Ninja_390

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Side Characters who made appearances later on

All Print

So I read all the books last year and am now doing the audio books.

At book two now and already there are multiple (what i thought) fringe characters being mentioned that are important in later books. i.e Else Grinwell, Basel Gill and Aludra to name a few.

Just insane how on the first read through I didn't take in any of these side characters names or even existence outside when they were mentioned and now going through it again and you see these characters briefly mentioned for a paragraph and remember their importance later on.

Is there anywhere where its recorded how many characters started as a brief side character but got swooped up into the taveren whirlwind and ended up in the books again later on?

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