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[–]kevie3drinks 1360 points1361 points  (123 children)

Solar panel washers will be the new ramoneurs

[–]PickitPackitSmackit 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Don't forget rooftop landscapers!!

[–]warlock1992 292 points293 points  (87 children)

I live in southern part of India,in a place called Kerala. Even though we have two monsoon seasons, we used to have water scarcity from the months of Dec to April. We invested a couple of years ago in rain water harvesting .Nothing fancy. Just a pipe that would channel the rooftop water into a pit near the well that naturally filters it and recharges the aquifers. Now we dont have to buy expensive potable water. Water harvesting is a real game changer.

[–][deleted] 140 points141 points  (80 children)

In some parts of the US water harvesting is illegal.

[–]warlock1992 84 points85 points  (66 children)

I dont understand the logic of that. it depends on each person. Like have heard in some places in the West you cant dry your clothes out on the line. that is downright ridikulus,

[–][deleted] 124 points125 points  (40 children)

Some people say that clothes hanging on a line makes the neighborhood look unkempt and poor. It reduces the value of peoples property. So even thou it saves electrify and contributes no harmful emissions to the environment some cities ban the practice.

We always hang the wash out to dry.

[–]expatjake 65 points66 points  (16 children)

I appreciate the explanation and don't doubt the reasoning. I still think it's just plain wrong. Ignoring the environment for a minute I don't want anyone telling me what I can or can't do with my own clothes on my own property. Luckily I don't have any restrictions like that so I can only be outraged on behalf of others!

[–]sotonohito 69 points70 points  (15 children)

There are actual reasons for water harvesting limits. Mainly due to the fact that in many places water is a shared resource, one person damming their property can have a significant impact on smaller streams. the issue isn't rooftop harvesting, but guys with giant plots of land diverting watersheds.

Also, iirc, only Colorado really had a law against it.

[–]Panonia 551 points552 points  (81 children)

All new buildings in commercial zones across the country must comply with new environmental legislation

So only for buildings in commercial areas (supermarkets, warehouses, etc.), and therefore no individual dwellings.

[–]Illathrael 696 points697 points  (54 children)

It's a decent start though, isn't it?

[–]Panonia 406 points407 points  (24 children)

It sure is.

[–]WightKnight1 454 points455 points  (21 children)

The most civil discussion I've ever seen on Reddit.

[–][deleted] 59 points60 points  (5 children)

That makes sense - while it would be nice to have it on the houses, not everyone can afford them. For a commercial building though, those costs are not as big (as a percentage of the total cost of the building).

[–]RiffyDivine2 607 points608 points  (250 children)

Does it say if the plants need to be alive or dead? Do you need to maintain them or just put them up there and forget about it?

[–][deleted] 282 points283 points  (93 children)

they generally use succulents that need very little maintenance

[–]RiffyDivine2 79 points80 points  (88 children)

Aren't there better choices if the goal is to lower the carbon output, assuming that is even the goal and it's not just to make things look pretty.

[–]BrettGilpin 434 points435 points  (79 children)

It does lower the carbon output. Any rooftop that is covered in dirt and plants naturally insulates the building and also protects the roof of the building itself from the sun during the summer. It reduces the amount you need to heat/cool the building for winter/summer. It reduces carbon emissions that way.

[–]RiffyDivine2 66 points67 points  (13 children)

Fair point, didn't think about it like that.

[–]mcfadden113 9 points10 points  (9 children)

It's also helpful in mitigating rainwater runoff, which is good because that means less pollutants being swept away into watersheds. If used in conjunction with rain gardens or permeable surfaces rooftop gardens can turn what would be runoff into replenishing groundwater.

[–]imabouttoblowup 579 points580 points  (119 children)

Well I live in France and in the town my parents live in, they have already implemented the rule that newly constructed building had to have "green rooves" meaning covered in plants.

So when our neighbors built their house they put one on top of their house and never maintained it since. It's now covered in weeds. So yeah they just "put it up there and forget about it" like you said ...

When the wind blows the seeds go into our garden and there's nothing we can do about it. Nobody cares except us... My mother is not happy about it at all !

[–]Softcorps_dn 222 points223 points  (56 children)

I mean, technically weeds are plants right?

[–]infiniteintermission 352 points353 points  (36 children)

They still sequester carbon and produce oxygen, so they got that going for them.

[–]pixgarden 161 points162 points  (2 children)

which is nice.

[–]cold08 50 points51 points  (24 children)

Unless you garden in very specific ways, gardens are usually carbon neutral (or slightly carbon positive when you factor in energy used to grow any greenhouse plants), meaning any plant matter that dies is then eaten by bacteria and other critters converted back into CO2 and then released back into the atmosphere when the soil is tilled the next spring.

There are ways we can farm and garden that would make it carbon negative like through using biochar or "no till" gardening, but most of us do not do that.

[–]amaurea 56 points57 points  (5 children)

The case imabouttoblowup mentioned falls into exactly the category that is carbon negative, though.

Let's say you have a lawn. The grass grows by combining water with CO2 in the atmosphere. It doesn't (mainly) build itself from carbon in the ground. That's why a big tree doesn't end up standing in a huge hole. If nobody mows the lawn then dead grass will end up rotting, but rotting it doesn't free up all its carbon. The result is humus which accumulates with each generation of grass. So over time, the lawn moves upwards, rising on a thicker and thicker layer of humus. A lot of that extra mass is carbon captured from the air.

If somebody starts a garden on their roof and leaves it to itself (and it doesn't die), then I would expect the same thing to happen there - a build-up of more and more organic material there. I've seen old grass-roofed cabins with thick wildernesses on top of them.

But anyway, carbon capture was not the purpose of this new law. From the article:

Green roofs have an isolating effect, helping reduce the amount of energy needed to heat a building in winter and cool it in summer. They also retain rainwater, thus helping reduce problems with runoff, while favouring biodiversity and giving birds a place to nest in the urban jungle, ecologists say.

[–]Supertweaker14 152 points153 points  (11 children)

they are not technically plants, they are just plants

[–]Nine_Gates 93 points94 points  (1 child)

Better those than unjust plants.

[–]StinkinFinger 37 points38 points  (2 children)

A weed is but an unloved flower.

[–]r1chard3 7 points8 points  (0 children)

A weed is any plant growing where someone doesn't want it growing.

[–][deleted] 71 points72 points  (13 children)

Nothing wrong with weeds, let nature do its thang up there

[–]ScienceNAlcohol 57 points58 points  (4 children)

At least here in the US sedum has been used in many rooftop gardens as it is low maintenance and doesn't need a lot of water. It's a win win. We're I work we grow tons of it for upcoming building projects and it comes in some really pretty varieties.

[–]pigslovebacon 2555 points2556 points  (448 children)

Good. I'd wish they'd do that in Australia. We have so much sun that could be harvested and so many vast factory rooftops to place panels or plants.

[–]infanticide_holiday 1588 points1589 points  (326 children)

I rented a place in Perth with solar panels. Didn't pay an electricity bill for 3 years.

[–]Sylveran-01 398 points399 points  (143 children)

I've been living with a 5Kw system (20x250w panels) for over 2 months now. It was costly to setup but when I looked at my electricity meter totals versus my quarterly bill, I expect to pay sweet fuck-all this quarter. And once we can get affordable lithium ion domestic batteries, not even that. Meanwhile, Energy Australia is telling me my bills are going to go up by 20% in the next few months - even more once the electricity infrastructure is privatised here in NSW - and I'm more glad I made the switch when I did.

[–][deleted] 434 points435 points  (22 children)

15k dollarydoos?

[–][deleted] 200 points201 points  (15 children)

dollarydoos

Is that what you people call your money?

[–][deleted] 134 points135 points  (5 children)

According to the Simpsons yes.

[–]balancedchaos 17 points18 points  (1 child)

What do you mean, "you people?"

[–]NardDogNailedIt 13 points14 points  (0 children)

What do YOU mean, "you people"?

[–]das7002 29 points30 points  (4 children)

lithium ion domestic batteries

Lithium ion batteries shouldn't be used in places where weight doesn't matter. Fixed installations in buildings are better off with lead acid. Cheap, safe (don't tend to explode/catch fire on failure), don't need complicated charging circuitry, and lead is abundant and so is the electrolyte.

Lithium is quite a bit more rare and mined in a rather environmentally degrading way in places that don't give a shit about the environment like China.

Only real downside to lead batteries is weight, which, in a fixed installation inside a building, who cares?

[–]iama_lion 126 points127 points  (74 children)

Don't even get me started on the fuck up Energy Australia/Ausgrid is now. My dad has worked there for 25+ years and now they're cutting his department (aka the training department) by at least half. He refuses to reapply for his job because they've treated them like shit over the last couple of years, so his redundancy payment is worth more than the shit they'll put him through to keep his job.

Edit: Basically, raising costs, cutting staff = more money in the big wigs pockets.

[–][deleted] 84 points85 points  (63 children)

redundancy payment

What is this?

-edit: I remembered google is a thing.

Apparently, in Australia and UK, there is a special government-enforced severance to employees who have been "downsized" due to their position being deemed redundant. Neato.

[–]Krags 124 points125 points  (50 children)

Wait, so in the US once you get downsized out you're just... left?

Wtf.

[–][deleted] 64 points65 points  (21 children)

Well, if you're laid off you would typically qualify for unemployment benefits. It's not a whole lot, but it's typically enough to live on if you have some savings. You still have to eventually get another job though.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (10 children)

In Sweden, if you are downsized, your job is protected for 2-6 months depending on how long you've worked and depending on what kind of collective deal that company has signed. So to say, they have the right to make you work for that time, but often you are let go to have time to find a new job, all while on full pay.

[–]moartoast 29 points30 points  (5 children)

Japan's solution.

For more than two years, he has come to a small room, taken a seat and then passed the time reading newspapers, browsing the Web and poring over engineering textbooks from his college days. He files a report on his activities at the end of each day.

Sony, Mr. Tani’s employer of 32 years, consigned him to this room because they can’t get rid of him. Sony had eliminated his position at the Sony Sendai Technology Center, which in better times produced magnetic tapes for videos and cassettes. But Mr. Tani, 51, refused to take an early retirement offer from Sony in late 2010 — his prerogative under Japanese labor law.

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (1 child)

It's more a cultural loyalty thing over there. In Japan, you get employed by one company and then you work there until you retire. I am pretty sure he did not want to retire so early, so he contested it and since their laws are based on this culture, he won. I think it would be almost impossible for him to find a new job if he actually lost his job due to the weird culture in Japan. Here we have a 55-year old guy that wants to work for us. Their perspective of labour is different.

[–]dotmadhack 417 points418 points  (92 children)

What happened after three years?

[–][deleted] 3091 points3092 points  (27 children)

He had to pay his way overdue bills. Duh.

[–]zivilia 148 points149 points  (7 children)

Don't forget the interest.

[–]msuozzo 51 points52 points  (6 children)

You remind me of Cheryl Tunt.

[–]WadeK 85 points86 points  (2 children)

The Fire Nation attacked

[–]Omnishift 237 points238 points  (4 children)

We don't talk about that

[–]FuriousTarts 162 points163 points  (0 children)

I rented a place

[–]przyjaciel 65 points66 points  (4 children)

Total solar eclipse.

[–]ThePegLegPete 41 points42 points  (3 children)

The electric company turned off his rainy day supply after he didn't pay any of his outstanding balance for 3 years.

[–]G3ck0 123 points124 points  (70 children)

Our electricity bill went from $550 a quarter to $150 with solar. So good.

[–][deleted] 80 points81 points  (44 children)

How much did the panels cost?

[–]G3ck0 82 points83 points  (11 children)

We went from a rental to a place that already had 5kw, so nothing.

[–]badsingularity 149 points150 points  (33 children)

Aren't your politicians owned by the coal industry, like many of ours?

[–]well_golly 116 points117 points  (23 children)

The richest woman in Australia (and probably the world) is a borderline imbecile who "worked hard all her life" by waiting for her coal baron daddy to die. She is a horrible, horrible woman by all accounts.

She sues people for saying that she inherited her fortune, because she thinks she is "self made." She went from pretty much nothing, to "richest woman in the world" in an instant, the moment her father died and left her the fortune he made from raping Australia of its mineral resources. I guess she worked really, really hard during that instant in time, the precise moment her dad died.

Here's a little intro to Gina Reinhart.

Here she says people should work for $2 a day, while she makes $598 a second. Plus she's a big sloshy blob of a woman, and in the same video she's criticizing her countrymen for 'not being as healthy as she is'.

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (1 child)

I rarely use this word because it's reserved for the most despicable people--that lady is a cunt.

[–]favix 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Reinhart means pure/clean heart in Dutch. Which this woman probably doesn't have.

[–]SebZero_83 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Definitely not her coronary arteries...

[–]uwhuskytskeet 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Gina Reinhart

World's 5th richest woman according to Forbes

[–]well_golly 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Reinhart's wealth seems to be plummeting vis a vis her peers. I wonder if her "self made" claims will persist when it becomes glaringly obvious that she "self un-made" her fortune.

Still, she's probably richer with each passing year. It's just that her uber-rich fellow inheriters are snowballing their wealth more quickly than she is.

When you ask the obscenely wealthy what they could possibly still want, the answer is always the same: "More!"

[–]AndrewFlash 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry I have to share the same oxygen as her.

[–]swaggerqueen16 46 points47 points  (14 children)

Don't you guys have to pay a ridiculous tax to have solar panels up?

I remember being shocked and angry from reading a headline like that a while ago.

[–]DonOfspades 32 points33 points  (7 children)

In most places you get a tax break, not another charge. Don't know where you heard that.

[–]1x10_-24 1110 points1111 points  (371 children)

Something similar happened in Spain and Germany. A tax break or similar, Im not sure.

But when the solar panel stuff really kicked in, and the private owners of solar panels started to give power to the grid, the big energy companies complained that their profits were going down, and so the tax break (or something) stopped...

not sure about the details.

Edit: words.

[–]HymirTheDarkOne 1046 points1047 points  (190 children)

The rich bought solar panels in spain because they could afford more of them because of the government subsidizing them. This in effect made the rich have to pay less for energy and the poor have to foot the bill for not only the energy but also for a larger percentage of the power grid maintenance that they previously shared with the rich.

[–]Jaykwon 375 points376 points  (142 children)

Someone should have seen that coming

[–][deleted] 651 points652 points  (106 children)

They do. It's why a lot of people complain about using tax credits to change people's behaviors.

[–]hansdieter44 349 points350 points  (75 children)

While somewhat correct thats a very negative view.

What happened (Germany):

The government wanted people to get excited about solar & invest in it, so they put subsidies in place. People did invest. These subsidies were in place for a long time (10 years or something?), drove the prices down for solar panel manufacturing and put Germany in the place where it is today: World leader for Solar Tech. The US and others are only now slowly catching up.

The big energy providers did of course complain during the process, but that was the point of the entire exercise all along.

Then the subsidies ran out as planned, everything is amazing and people are still investing in solar.

You are of course free to believe in horrible conspiracies, but so far it has been a success IMO.

Attention: I am biased as I am German myself.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that was my impression of their intent as well - to lower solar panel prices and encourage people to buy them and contribute to the grid, increasing the renewable energy use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

[–]sillymaniac 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Unfortunately, Germany has long ceased being world's top producer of solar panels. We've been pioneers, but China has taken over quite some years ago - of course with massive government money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaics_companies#2011_global_top_ten_solar_module_manufacturers_by_capacity

[–]kevie3drinks 64 points65 points  (37 children)

It's not so much the big energy companies, but the local power companies, reverse metering is a great idea in theory, until you get an unsustainable amount of people doing it, and then the power companies can't afford to maintain their grid.

The problem is really you are selling power back into the grid when the grid doesn't need it that much, at non-peak hours.

This is why solar leasing is a good option, you can lease solar panels rather than buying them and incurring a heafty initial investment, and pay essentially the same electric bill, but you are leasing solar panels that are maintained and replaced when needed by the power company.

Lets be honest, there are better ways to get a return on investment than installing solar panels, we need to think of it as a choice of efficiency rather than cost saving at this point.

When you try to save money out of it you end up buying Chinese solar plants that were made in factories powered by the dirtiest coal fired power plants in the world, not exactly eco friendly, as solar pv cells are very energy intensive to manufacture.

[–]BrettGilpin 37 points38 points  (15 children)

The problem is really you are selling power back into the grid when the grid doesn't need it that much, at non-peak hours.

Eh, not really. The peak hours for electricity usage is usually during midday when everyone is at work and businesses are using a ton of electricity and also homes are idling with their air conditioning.

But if you have enough solar panels, this is also peak solar output and likely you have enough to beat out your appliances and you're selling back to them when there is a greater need for energy.

[–][deleted] 98 points99 points  (64 children)

Legitimate question: how do solar panels hold up to hail damage? If we installed these in Texas and they were susceptible to hail, it wouldn't be anywhere near beneficial because we would have to replace them after every major hailstorm

[–]rebeltrillionaire 112 points113 points  (44 children)

Solar panels come with acrylic or glass casings that protect the fragile crystaline structures beneath. The casings are strong enough to withstand a pellet gun shooting 260+MPH.

Hail pellets were tested but casings are very resilient, to put the pellet gun in perspective 1cm hail can only travel up to 20MPH and 8cm hail has a terminal velocity of 110MPH. So before anyone shows up with more math, the answer is hail is not the problem you think it is.

[–]EntroperZero 20 points21 points  (2 children)

The Socialist government convinced activists to limit the scope of the law to commercial buildings.

Boy, things are different on the other side of the Atlantic.

[–]lifemoments 2998 points2999 points  (738 children)

Rain water harvesting and solar rooftops should be deployed to all possible places.

[–]Valmond 159 points160 points  (176 children)

Don't drink the rainwater though ;-)

[–]THIS-IS-FISH 458 points459 points  (139 children)

I only drink rainwater and distilled water, its how I ensure the purity of my precious bodily fluids.

[–]Valmond 35 points36 points  (4 children)

Purity Of Essence & Peace On Earth

[–]Sla5021 45 points46 points  (3 children)

"But I... I do deny them my essence."

[–]MusikLehrer 25 points26 points  (2 children)

Women can feel my power, Mandrake

[–]SpaceCowboy01 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Distilled rain water

[–]skytomorrownow 93 points94 points  (13 children)

No, divert it to landscaping, and toilets. That alone does a lot for water conservation.

[–]chuckDontSurf 75 points76 points  (8 children)

I think as a species we need to stop shitting.

[–]Paddy_Tanninger 18 points19 points  (3 children)

In NZ there's tons of places that just use collected rain water. Tastes pretty good too!

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Run it through a simple pot still and you're all set. Run the still with solar reflectors. How green you wanna be? Shit works.

[–]celtic1888 7 points8 points  (0 children)

How green you wanna be? Shit works.

Instructions unclear. Put rainwater catchment system in septic leach field.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Gray water tanks. You use it to flush your toilet and other high usage tasks. It's just a slight buffer before it enters the sewer/storm drain anyway.

Plus it'll act as a slight buffer to overwhelming those systems.

[–]BrawnyJava 35 points36 points  (42 children)

Out west, we cannot harvest rainwater because most of us don't own the water rights to our own land. I live in a suburb of Denver, and my mortgage/deed paperwork says in big letters "You do not own water or mineral rights to this property, only occupancy rights."

Which is fine with me. I couldn't afford the property if it came with water rights. Those are crazy expensive.

Edit: western United States.

Edit 2: for real. I don't own the rights to water on my roof. At least that is the opinion of Denver Water, and I'm sure their lawyers are better than mine. http://www.examiner.com/article/why-are-rain-barrels-illegal-colorado

[–][deleted] 53 points54 points  (11 children)

First thing I could think of is that we allready have this in Norway.

Seriously though, this is great and hopefully will become more common to see in urban areas.

[–]XmasCarroll 112 points113 points  (14 children)

I can't wait to see city skylines after this is made. It sounds like it could drastically change how some buildings are built and I'm excited for it.

[–]StargateMunky101 41 points42 points  (2 children)

they already have solar panels in game for high end housing

[–]ChronoX5 45 points46 points  (1 child)

he meant real skylines. i had to read it twice too.

[–]escaday 127 points128 points  (257 children)

Ok it seems at least reasonable to me. Can people who disagree with this legislation care to elaborate why? I'd like to get both views before I make up my own.

[–]Hoser117 213 points214 points  (29 children)

From what I've read, a similar thing occurred in Spain. What this meant was that now wealthier people (the ones who can afford solar panels and build buildings etc.) now pay less for their energy because they're generating some of their own.

Eventually the power companies start to feel this impact on their bottom line, and to recoup lost profits they raise their rates, impacting a lot of poorer people, leading to an even bigger income gap.

This may be super simplified, but it's the most valid thing I've seen to oppose this.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't my view, I'm just repeating what I've read to answer this persons question. It does seem like there's plenty of valid reasoning to not feel this way, which you can find in various comments in response to this one. The most compelling one has been this one.

[–][deleted] 49 points50 points  (1 child)

Cost, Maintenance, Etc

[–]npno 14 points15 points  (0 children)

As someone who works in the flat roofing industry this is getting overlooked all over this thread. The cost to install a green roof is roughly 50%-200% more than a traditional one. Thats purely the cost to install the roof from the deck up. I cant speak for the extra structural cost to support the weight of the systems over a traditional roof, but i know its pretty substantial.

Then there is maintenance costs..... fixing leaks on a green roof? Good luck with that.

[–]mynuname 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Putting plants on roofs , which also absorb rainwater, increases structural load substantially. More structural materials and more building cost.

[–]jrlund2 8 points9 points  (0 children)

A somewhat similar law was made in California a few years ago. They mandated that no energy generated by private solar panels should ever go wasted, forcing power companies to buy power from anyone with a panel. The problem is that these microproducers are quite inefficient and companies had to spend a lot of money to upgrade infrastructure to transmit power 2 ways, even for insignificant amounts of energy, and they passed the upgrade costs along to the consumers.

[–]nickiter 63 points64 points  (30 children)

Areas where sunlight isn't plentiful will struggle to find a good return from these types of installations, remote buildings will require labor to maintain their roofs that wasn't needed in the past, construction costs overall will rise, which slows economic growth and disadvantages new players in a given industry, and lack of maintenance will have more severe consequences for the health of a building.

[–]unconscionable 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I love solar energy, but starting and running a business is hard enough without rules and regulations about what goes on my goddamn roof.

[–]Milith 31 points32 points  (35 children)

I'm not an expert on the subject nor am I against this law, but I'll provide an argument anyway:

A centralized power grid that distributes energy from the power plants to the users is a lot different than a two-way grid where everyone is buying/selling at different times. This law will create a ton of micro-sellers who will put into the grid an intermittent electric surplus whose pattern may be very hard to predict and could create some problems given the right circumstances.

[–]Trisha_Hill 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Time for me to start a solar panel business

[–]prof1le 23 points24 points  (18 children)

This is very interesting. I wonder what the cost/return of doing this is. I'm wondering why companies don't already do this if these solar panels actual do save energy and money in the long run.

[–]fish_slap_republic 12 points13 points  (17 children)

What about solar water heaters or algae biofuel production?