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Vaccine NewsPfizer, Moderna and Novavax gear up for fall Covid vaccine rollout with an important head start (cnbc.com)

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[–]Alastor3 100 points101 points  (37 children)

no info if it protect against XBB 1.6, BF7, and BQ.1.1

[–]nakedrickjamesBoosted! ✨💉✅ 195 points196 points  (21 children)

I listened to a good portion of the meeting. My takeaway, all the above are sublineages of XBB 1.5 and so it should cover those very well. If you read between the lines a bit (and they did explicitly say they're not into 'variant chasing' i.e. trying to match as closely to the absolute latest variant) the thinking is, by choosing the grandpa (XBB 1.5) instead of one of the kids (1.6 etc) , it should reasonably cover any future kids and grandkids, and most likely protect against severe disease in the great-grandkids.

1.5 is the right call in that it will be the one that's ready soonest. One of the participants even suggested it could conceivably be ready as soon as July. They are starting to acknowledge that *waiting* for fall is pointless as nobody is really sure if Covid is seasonal or what that season actually is.

They are going monovalent which is absolutely the right call for a number of reasons.

They did speak to the possibility of next gen vaccines but admitted those are probably a couple years off. I would not expect a big improvement in terms of waning protection against infection or a 'variant-proof' vaccine until we got those.

Novavax is already manufacturing their 1.5 vaccine, so they likely have really encouraging internal data on that strain being a winner.

[–]Marshall_LawsonI'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 49 points50 points  (1 child)

Thank you for this explanation, for those of us who neither have time to listen to the meeting nor have the knowledge to summarize it.

[–]nakedrickjamesBoosted! ✨💉✅ 21 points22 points  (0 children)

No problem, I am going off memory (not notes) since I was working while listening. I could have missed some things, but things will probably be more concrete after the ACIP meeting this week.

[–]mredofcourseBoosted! ✨💉✅ 68 points69 points  (3 children)

I'm glad I'm not the only Covid nerd here. I was gearing up to write the exact same thing. I was surprised nothing was posted here last Thursday.

Yeah, that "July" comment got me really excited when I heard it, but then someone piped in saying that administratively, logistically, etc... that would mean a later date for shots in arms (paraphrasing).

Still, it's good to know that production has already been underway and that's not going to be holding up shots in arms.

Overall, I'm really optimistic. I know this isn't going to wipe out Covid, and we have animal reservoirs, but it does seem like there's a good chance we might get ahead of Covid with the XBB 1.5 shot and future outbreaks of other variants may be something we're better adapted at handling as well as combating with updated vaccines.

I say this because this optimism is helping to keep my family safe. It's the rationale behind still taking reasonable precautions. If we can make it to September without having ever been infected, that could be a big difference in our long term health (and possibly short term as well).

[–]trotfox_ 27 points28 points  (2 children)

I have been saying, when there is no actual answer to the problem, people just act like it isn't there.

But that is very dumb since you could get out of this unscathed if you wait it out long enough we will definitely end up fixing this problem.

Keep going, infected twice but wish it was zero.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]Alastor3 17 points18 points  (10 children)

    what are the pros and cons of taking novavax in the fall instead of another mRNA? I already got 6 shots already (5 pfizer, 1 moderna, 2 of those bivalent)

    [–]HungryAddition1 17 points18 points  (4 children)

    I’m also on the 6 shots train. As I’m potentially going to China, where they are having their second wave ,in a few weeks I went to get my booster last week (instead of waiting for the updated shot in the fall). I had just passed six months since my last infection. My pharmacist convinced me to try the Novavax, telling me that’s the one a lot of doctors coming in request. It’s apparently held on pretty well.

    [–]clearpurple 7 points8 points  (3 children)

    I’m surprised your pharmacist let you get nova if you had gotten mRNA boosters already — I thought that wasn’t allowed but I would love to get a nova booster. Was it a pharmacy chain?

    [–]HungryAddition1 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    That was in Canada. I booked an appointment and he simply asked me what I wanted to get. He said “I see you got 5 mRNA shots before. Would you like to try Novavax? He then said that’s what he got a couple weeks ago. I said I trust him and just got that jab. I was pleasantly happy with the “no side effects”.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]580083351 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      The answer to this question should be better phrased as, "what are the pros and cons.. if it is available to me at all where I live".

      Pretty sure it won't be available to most people.

      [–]nakedrickjamesBoosted! ✨💉✅ 19 points20 points  (2 children)

      Novavax is (supposedly) more durable and variant 'resistant'. There's been some data to suppor this, but it gets harder to pinpoint differences between the individual vaccines as the population immunity steadily increases over time (through reinfections and more vaccinations). I know at least with the original Novavax, they targeted a more 'preserved' (less prone to mutation) part of the virus. I'm hoping someone does a deep dive into what epitopes were chosen and why before making my own assessment on the XBB boosters.

      [–]DuePomegranate 12 points13 points  (1 child)

      Novavax is the same ancestral full length spike protein, just that they mutated the furin cleavage site between S1 (the head that mutates a lot) and S2 (the more conserved stalk) so that it doesn’t cleave.

      Novavax does produce more S2 antibodies compared to mRNA vaccines , but it’s not clear that this translates into better cross-protection because it’s harder for S2 antibodies to neutralise the virus. The studies that Novavax publishes to stake its claim of cross-reactivity do not include comparisons with mRNA vaccines.

      [–]nakedrickjamesBoosted! ✨💉✅ 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Interesting. I'll admit a lot of what I've read about the noviavax one has been shared by, for the lack of a better term "fanboys" on Twitter.

      [–]Drug-Lord 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      I think I'm going to try to find novavax this fall. Honestly, mRNA, incredible technology. Super effective. However, their effectiveness over time leaves a lot to be desired. Plus, I'd like to support the smaller pharma company if possible.

      [–]experiencednowhack 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Why is monovalent right call? Wouldn't grandpa + one kid be better?

      [–]580083351 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      No, my bet is that for them the process of making something is more difficult and they're not going to start over with another one, so it'll be 1.5 for them, and for another company it'll be something else.

      Which is fine, my bivalent was BA.1, most got the BA.5 one. There wasn't a BA.2 one, and XBB apparently came from BA.2, so in the end it didn't make a difference.

      [–]jdorjeBoosted! ✨💉✅ 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      It'll be the same variant for every company. This was discussed at the meeting.

      [–]HotCheetooooooooooBoosted! ✨💉✅ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Thanks

      [–]jdorjeBoosted! ✨💉✅ 16 points17 points  (3 children)

      Xbb.1.16 is the same to the immune system. All the dozens of advanced xbb variants are.

      BA.5 (Bq.1) is gone for now and will remain gone for a long while. The reason there is that we had a lot of infections of it, then subsequent infections bring back that old immunity (what we like to call imprinting).

      Ba.2.75, xbc, and ba.2.3.20 are the other three variant families that continue to evolve and spread. These have made up 1-2% of US cases all summer, and comprise some very gnarly stuff. There's around a 50% chance that the fall surge could come from one of them I'd say. They do have similar RBD's so the xbb vaccine should still do quite decently.

      [–]Alastor3 6 points7 points  (2 children)

      Ba.2.75, xbc, and ba.2.3.20 are the other three variant families that continue to evolve and spread. These have made up 1-2% of US cases all summer, and comprise some very gnarly stuff.

      never heard of what these do

      [–]jdorjeBoosted! ✨💉✅ 20 points21 points  (1 child)

      They mostly have pretty similar RBD's (pointy end that connects to cells), but the NTD's (inside end that connects to the rest of the virus) are very different. Because they have reasonably high immune escape from XBB infections, every XBB infection we have gives future XBB variants a "disadvantage" in growth compared to them. Note that doesn't mean every XBB infection makes them grow faster, just that it impedes their growth less than it impedes XBB.

      They peaked at around 6% of US cases, but since XBB.1.5 took over have been around 1-2%. Worldwide the most contagious of these are keeping pace with XBB.1.16.

      BA.2.75 you probably have heard of, and as a family it has caused billions of infections worldwide since its appearance last June. It's often claimed that XBB is a descendant of BA.2.75, but that's misleading - every defining XBB mutation comes from its other recombinant parent, BJ.1. BA.2.75 has a large and very effective NTD saltation and is a very contagious family. There are two fairly different subfamilies here that continue to evolve, CH.1.1+ and BN.1.2.3+. BN.1.2.3 makes up a good number of Chinese cases and has more potential to evolve. But CH.1.1+ has co-circulated with XBB basically the entire time that they've both existed, and is most of the US cases in the link above.

      XBC is a real life "deltachron". It brings mostly the NTD from Delta with another RBD that's fairly similar to XBB's. In Australia it is fully co-circulating with XBB (in winter there). So on paper you'd think it was the next variant, but there's one big difference between Australia and here: they never had Delta infections.

      BA.2.3.20 has been a dark horse VOC since it first appeared last summer, and has never widely circulated anywhere. But unlike everything else it has a pretty different NTD, with a defining 484R and a mostly different set of mutations around it. In over a year nothing has really managed to outcompete this in the long term, and its continued evolution is for sure not good news.

      Despite all that, choosing between a monovalent XBB and quadrivalent vaccine is still a hard choice. Even if one of those variants passes XBB in fall and causes the next surge, an XBB vaccine still wouldn't be that bad. While if XBB continues to evolve and pulls back ahead, an XBB vaccine could be a lot better than a quadrivalent. In the long term though more variants in the vaccine would always give us broader immunity, so to me it's a bit disappointing seeing multivalent being abandoned this year.

      [–]VS2ute 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Australia did have Delta in 2 states. It killed several hundred people, maybe much less than most countries, but not zero.

      [–]adrianmonk 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      no info if it protect against XBB 1.6

      No, the article does give info about that:

      But facing pressure to deliver new shots by the fall, Pfizer, Moderna and Novavax began development on versions of their vaccines targeting XBB.1.5 months before the FDA’s decision. Preliminary data those companies presented last week indicates that their jabs produce strong immune responses against all XBB variants.

      The same article also links to an earlier NBC article which says this:

      Moderna has been evaluating shots targeting XBB.1.5 and XBB.1.16 — another transmissible omicron descendant, according to Rituparna Das, the company’s vice president of Covid vaccines.
      Preclinical trial data on mice suggests that a monovalent vaccine targeting XBB.1.5 produces a more robust immune response against the currently circulating XBB variants than the authorized bivalent shot targeting BA.4 and BA.5, according to Das.
      She added that clinical trial data on more than 100 people similarly demonstrates that the monovalent XBB.1.5 vaccine produces protective antibodies against all XBB variants. All trial participants had previously received four Covid vaccine doses.
      Das said that comprehensive protection against XBB strains is likely due to the fewer unique mutations between the variants, which means their composition is similar.
      There are only three unique mutations between the variants XBB.1.5 and XBB.1.16, according to Darin Edwards, Moderna’s Covid vaccine program leader. By comparison, there are 28 mutations between omicron BA.4 and BA.5.
      That means the immune response an updated shot produces against XBB variants will likely be similar, regardless of which specific variant it targets, Edwards said.

      About BF7 and BQ.1.1, the article also links to the current CDC stats, which say that BF7 and BQ.1.1 make up 0.0% and 0.1% of US cases, respectively. So, while the article doesn't say whether this new vaccine protects against them, that info is less important considering that they aren't currently circulating widely.

      [–]mwallace0569Boosted! ✨💉✅ 14 points15 points  (1 child)

      they showed in the FDA meeting that it will protect against XBB1.6 but i don't remember if they show it will protect against BF7 or BQ.1.1

      [–]MillionEyesOfSumuruBoosted! ✨💉✅ 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      Per CDC's Nowcast, 98.8% of current cases are XBB, 0-.1% (and dropping) are BQ.1.1, and 0% are BF7, so nothing besides XBB is likely to matter much.

      [–]Stellar971 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      What about the XTCS 1.6 variant?

      [–]Alastor3 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      is that a new TV model?

      [–]Stellar971 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Just fucking with ya, it's Counter Strike 1.6 gdaphical overhaul done by valve a decade ago, which latrr on evved to be global offensive

      [–]Alastor3 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      oh you! you got me there!

      [–]Marshall_LawsonI'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

      yeah, frustrating, the only one it calls out in the article is omicron subvariant XBB.1.5

      [–]mwallace0569Boosted! ✨💉✅ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Preliminary data those companies presented last week indicates that their jabs produce strong immune responses against all XBB variants.

      which is what i remember seeing in the FDA meeting

      [–]DustyRegalia 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      This is a monovalent vaccine targeting XBB.1.5. The question of how well it protects against other variants, if at all, will probably only be answered in hindsight. It’s also going to be complicated by the fact that we’ll see similarly low uptake by the population at large, so there won’t be the broader reduction in cases that would have otherwise come with a big rollout.

      [–]ConfectionNo6744 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      You guys know way too much about this...touch some grass man!!!

      [–]shivaswrath 21 points22 points  (0 children)

      1.5 is the right move, can’t wait for this. I got 1.xxx recently, was exhausting and dry cough was annoying. Paxlovid was worse, had to stop after 2.5 days. Recovered after 7 total days (2.5 on Pax).

      A Vax would be welcomed.

      [–]sunqueen73I'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 18 points19 points  (4 children)

      I'll take it since my job has moved to almost full time in office again. But not looking forward to a week of hell with swollen glands, muscle pain, fevers, diarrhea and extreme fatigue if my body follows the last 5 reactions 😵‍💫. Saving up my sick days...

      [–]softsnowfallI'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 14 points15 points  (1 child)

      I got Novavax as a booster last fall because I hadn’t ever had a booster so I fell into that little approved group. It was awesome. A tiny bit of tenderness at the injection site for less than a day. That was it. The second Pfizer dose made me so sick that I was unwilling to try any mRNA booster. IDK what your experience might be. I am really relieved an updated Novavax booster will be a choice.

      [–]sunqueen73I'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Thanks for that. I forgot that I took a JnJ booster when it was still a thing. Definitely a less severe response than with the mRNA. So might continue on with non-MRNAs. Yay.

      [–]iuhoosiers3232 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Gonna accept that as sick days? My job did not

      [–]sunqueen73I'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Yes they will. Sounds like you need a new job.

      [–]CeeCeeSaysBoosted! ✨💉✅ 8 points9 points  (6 children)

      Any info about vaccines for kids (under 5 specifically)?

      [–]dreadpiraterose 12 points13 points  (5 children)

      I am feel like the kids are always a fucking afterthought. So frustrating for us parents.

      [–]JunoKat 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      I don’t think kids are afterthought, if Covid were most deadly for young people like flu was, kids would have been the first group. Covid is most deadly for old people so it makes sense to have kid last.

      This also balance the risk of Covid and the risk of a new vaccine for any group of people.

      [–]dreadpiraterose 5 points6 points  (1 child)

      How is it we're 3 years into this and the big concern still seems to be death alone?

      [–]JunoKat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I don’t think it should be death alone but it should start somewhere. If you put death% by covid vs death % by vaccines and long term health impairment % because of covid vs long term health impairment % because of vaccine together, the latest data still point to older people benefitting the most from being vaccinated.

      [–]warblingContinues 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      They aren’t an afterthought. The allometric scaling relationships they use to estimate dosing by weight is different for children and adults, so children have to be done separately.

      [–]dreadpiraterose 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      I know that. But with kids vaccine availability always trailing behind, they are left vulnerable. It's frustrating.

      [–]ilovefacebook 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      i wonder if the rna technology lawsuits are going to hinder this process.

      [–]rocketwidgetBoosted! ✨💉✅ 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      Will the fall booster be offered for all ages all at once this time?

      Like how the flu vaccine is offered.

      [–]DuePomegranate 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      All adults for sure. Not sure about kids.

      [–]mwallace0569Boosted! ✨💉✅ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      wasn't the first bivalent booster offered for 12 and up for pfizer, and 18 and up for moderna?

      [–]cheatme1I'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      I've had COVID once not my cup of tea just get the vaccine please

      [–]pngwn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      If I didn't get the bivalent, should I just wait for this one to come out?

      [–]DannyBoySton3d 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Hello all,

      Just wanted to share that I have gotten the following Pfizer Covid-19 vaccines:

      5, Origional Covid-19 vaccines;

      2, Omicron Pfizer boosters;

      I just got the new 2023-2034 Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine on September 22, 2023. Even though I had to pay $190 for the updated Covid-19 booster shot, my insurance company has agreed to reimburse me for this Covid-19 booster shot. (After all, it was the insurance company's fault for not updating their insurance claim system beforehand, right?)

      I also have never tested positive for COVID-19 before either, despite being around numerous other individuals who have tested positive for COVID-19!

      Cheers, everyone!