Posts about The 13th Warrior
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2qh3s/styles/communityIcon_ctrxr9h6lmbb1.jpg?format=pjpg&s=befebdbe73a748b99db059393aea26383ab53673)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2qo4s/styles/communityIcon_1podsfdai4301.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2rtiv/styles/communityIcon_dtedklii5p691.jpg?format=pjpg&s=4918e191af615b53c6de04a1b2d068fcd9b1cd1f)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/B7IpR8P1mEsQIjdizK5x79s5aGfJUtKk3u2ksGZ9n2Q.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_58otco/styles/communityIcon_yk98bffvvcw71.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2sqpa/styles/communityIcon_69xvdulqm0p61.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2qqd4/styles/communityIcon_xxxhsjcucha21.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_7el1lf/styles/communityIcon_o03jxllmby0a1.jpeg?format=pjpg&s=6d54e4b2fa6d89ad8b1e4c82d7c091de09f98a82)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_38p4n/styles/communityIcon_javacc5rsw671.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_27isal/styles/communityIcon_lxdd6azxxov31.jpg?format=pjpg&s=1d484c6c7b0ff214a1e9a8b6474d96f5016b3e51)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_3iuoky/styles/communityIcon_kebs5fp85jl61.jpg?format=pjpg&s=d293d4263339cd4ed5401e50a5678f4934fc55d1)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/8Gcobj1mLiVbPEjkn9JG06Cxtz7uXhqZmh6qZ4upAQg.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_3fcgm/styles/communityIcon_xldhu34clf561.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2s4st/styles/communityIcon_py9id7rwmhz51.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2qur9/styles/communityIcon_fpzz7wbe8je31.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2vqni/styles/communityIcon_vndc4l0h30a21.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_82kxzy/styles/communityIcon_fd2njhtbg9oa1.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2qm4f/styles/communityIcon_mjb6b00yyqg61.jpg?format=pjpg&s=d2774ce7619d2b4eab90efb491c0782974eb2ea7)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_2mh8qj/styles/communityIcon_io8pu69th0w41.png)
![Subreddit Icon](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://styles.redditmedia.com/t5_3d3mh/styles/communityIcon_y01k696jhxn21.jpg?format=pjpg&s=a0f4415333b7f32ad1558d7a75fb3ac4630aee7b)
![](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png)
The 13th Warrior is the brainchild of noted action movie director, John McTiernan, (director of awesome movies like The Predator and Die Hard) based on the book Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton (writer of Jurrasic Park) and in turn loosely inspired by the writings of one Ahmad ibn Fadlฤn ibn al-Abbฤs ibn Rฤลกid ibn Hammฤd, an Arab emmisary who was sent to the King of the Volga Bulgars along with an embassy of the Abbasid Caliphate. His writings are descriptions of the of Volga Vikings and their practices, such as ship burials.
Viking Age Scandinavia is a big interest of mine (among many other things). Despite being far from an expert, or even a historian, i know a good deal about it... But if i make a mistake, i would greatly appreciate corrections.
I won't be foccusing on the actual events that much because almost none of it is rooted in actual historical events (needless to say Ahmed ibn Fadlan did not travel to Northern Scandinavia or fight ancient enemies with his Viking buddies). What the movie gets wrong are the representation of actual Viking Age Scandinavian culture, mostly in the realms of attire, armour, weapons and even the type of buildings shown. So this wil be rather short i imagine.
So, break out your mead and historically inaccurate armour and let's dive into this steaming pile of shit.
The story revolves around our long named hero, shortened to Ibn for ease of pronounciation, played by Antonio Banderas. In this movie, he's not a dignified emmisary... he was exiled for having the hots for a fellow noblemans wife... Which i'm pretty sure did not happen to the really Ibn.
On his way there he and his party are rescued from Tartars by Vikings, who then take the group to their camp, where Ibn gets first hand experience of Viking Age Scandinavian culture....
VIKING SPIT WASHING
First of all, i am pretty sure that Viking Age Scandinavians did not clean themselves with each others spit and mouthwash.
Yes ladies and gentleman, it's that kind of Viking movie... Where all the vikings are filthy manly barbarian who disgust the prissy and feminine Arab man with their raunchy manliness and beards...
This is despite the fact that Viking Age Scandinavians were actually very attentive towards their personal care and grooming... There are finds of combs in Scandinavia, and they're pretty common, and in several places in Iceland there are [hot baths] (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/pix/snorri_bath.jpg) and bathing is mentioned in several sagas and poems:
From Reginsmรกl (25):
Combed and washed every thoughtful man should be and fed in the morning; for one cannot foresee where one will be by evening; it is bad to rush headlong before one's fate.
Hรกvamรกl (61)
Washed and fed, a man should ride to the Assembly though he may not be very well dressed; of his shoes and breeches no man should be ashamed nor of his horse, though he doesn't have a good one.
And even today in Scandinavia, Saturday is considered washing day... For all intents and purposes, the image of a fur clad bear of a man washing himself with his own spit and his own greasy beard is an absolutely false image of a Viking... If a Viking Age Scandinavian could afford to wash and groom himself, he would see to it that he looks like a respectable and handsome person.
As well, there is this:
It is reported in the chronicle attributed to John of Wallingford that the Danes, thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, were able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses.
As well, this comment by /u/EyeStache supports this.
EDIT: It should be noted however, that Ahmed ibn Fadlan does describe the Volga Vikings as being unwashed barbarians, and that they do in fact, clean each other with their own spit, though he notes that they are obsessed with combing their hair. But we have to remember that this comes from the POV of a well standing nobleman from a very advanced and wealthy city (Baghdad), who was familiar with Islamic teachings on cleanliness, visiting traders who might not have had the chance to actually bathe. For all we know there was a great deal of cultural prejudice and bias.
My point here was also to debunk the entire myth of Viking uncleanliness in general.
This comment by /u/Vladith is also important and fascinating.
Cultural bias plays a huge part, but consider that ibn Fadlan was writing back to an educated and literate society. His works were widely circulated in the Early Middle Ages, and it's possible he was writing what the readers in Damascus and Baghdad wanted to here. He goes out of his way to make them scary and foreign, so he builds up a reputation as "the man who dealt with barbarians". He also goes into great detail about how the Vikings would gang-rape a woman multiple times a day before she is killed and thrown upon her master's funeral pyre. But not a single source mentions this elsewhere. It's a very gruesome detail, and one that Christian sources would be likely to mention. But they don't. I think it's possible that because female promiscuity was so abhorrent to medieval Muslims, ibn Fadlan made up a little sensationalistic tidbit to frighten readers at home and make them want more. It's entirely possible that I am projecting modern values onto a premodern context and foreign culture, but I find it plausible that ibn Fadlan intentionally exaggerated and embellished his account of the Rus for the same reasons that Marco Polo exaggerated and embellished his account of the Chinese.
VIKING PLATE ARMOUR, DOUBLE HANDED SWORDS AND LARPERS
Second the clothing is absolutely horrible. One of those guys is wearing a kilt in the 10th century! Why do they all look like LARP'ers?! Viking clothing was simpler than this!
Actual Viking Age Scandinavian clothing was fairly straight forward. With no studs or leather jackets. These guys would've been laughed out of a Medieval Fair the clothing is so shitty.
A typical Scandinavian of that age would've settled with a long tunic, possibly a linen undertunic trousers, leg wraps and simple shoes of varying design, depending on how rich you were.
The clothing of that age was also not as dull as some people imagine. Those who could afford it would wear very colourful clothing. The poorer Vikings would've had less colourful clothing and i imagine mostly earthen or vegetable colours and dyes, if any at all. Most people of that age probably would've wore undyed wool. Credit for the albums goes to /u/lokout.
The Vikings in this movie however, all wear scraps of black and brown leather, gray and white linen, black cloth and the like. It looks amateurish and for lack of a better term, kind of disgusting and unfinished,
But the absolute biggest kick to my nads is the armour (and also the reason for my flair). Oh boy... oh boy oh boy the armour.
I'll just post the pictures:
Okay i think you get the picture.
Absolutely nothing about this armour is Medieval, or Viking or even human in some parts. They all look cobbled up approximations of fantasy armour and some are not rooted in any actual amrour the Viking Age Scandinavians had. One of those guys is wearing a fucking morion from the 16th century! The main character is wearing plate armour.
Iron and steel plates for use in armour really only came to existance in the Medieval Age in the 13th century, and went through several stages of development before coming to the image we most commonly think of when we think of plate armour. I made this comment about this.
We have few finds of Viking Age armour. Armour to begin with was expensive as Hell, and most people were probably outfitted simply, carrying a shield and possibly a padded jacket, called a gambeson.
Since armour and weapons were expensive, whoever had the gear took great care of it and passed it on to his son and so forth and so forth.
The armour of the wealthy folk came down to a knee lenght chainmail hauberk and helmets of varrying design:
Another issue with the equippment in the movie is that all of them are carrying swords that are described as very heavy and some are wielded with two hands. Again this is playing into the stereotype of Vikings as incredibly muscular manly berserkers.
First of all, again, swords were expensive as hell.
More than anything else, the sword was the mark of a warrior in the Viking age. They were difficult to make, and therefore rare and expensive. The author of Fรณstbrรฆรฐra saga wrote in chapter 3 that in saga-age Iceland, very few men were armed with swords. Of the 100+ weapons found in Viking age pagan burials in Iceland, only 16 are swords.
Much of the iron used in iron and steel production in Scandinavia either came from bog iron, or was imported from Frankish lands or taken during raids. So getting the iron and making the sword was difficult.
Swords were a mark of prestige. However, you could make the case that the Vikings in the movie are simply accomplished warriors who engaged in countless raids and had boosted enough money and riches to afford making one (which was one way for a Scandinavian of that Age to get him some reasonable armour and weapons) so we could let it slide.
The bigger problem is that Viking swords were one handed. There are no finds of double handed
They were also not really heavy. On average they weighed 2.4 lbs.
EDIT: Most Viking Age Scandinavians of that time would've used spears. They're really cheap to make, repair and use and with enough skill can be used to immense effect. It can thrust, stab, slash, puncture and push away the enemy, keeping him away from you.
None of them also use any axes, another incredibly cheap and easy to use weapon.... Along with the spear and a dagger, they were probably the most common Viking weapons (thank you /u/smileyman for reminding me to put this in, it completely flew over my head).
Okay, i've gone long enough about the armour.
NONEXISTANT SWEDISH KINGS AND RAMSHACKLE BUILDINGS
Our anachronistic, barely approximate, out of place Vikings and our Arab hero travel to their Northern homeland to help out King Hrothgar in his battle against the mysterious Vendol Terrifying enemies who are so feared that the Vikings dare not even speak their names. They bare no relation towards the Vendol period.
Since Vendol is a parish in Sweden, are we supposed to believe this takes place in 10th Century Sweden?
The only Hrothgar i know of was a legendary 6th Century Danish King.... There are many legendary kings of Sweden who may or may not have existed, but not one of them is named Hrothgar.
But i'm not really suprised that the writers don't know shit and are extremely vague because of their ignorance towards the time period and culture represented.
Anywho, our heroes reach this kingdom and we encounter what the conceptual designers and set designers believe Scandinavian houses of the 10th Century looked like.
In the Viking Age, most people lived in villages, populated by farmers
... the nature of these settlements varied widely from one region to another. In prosperous regions, farms tended to cluster into small villages or hamlets. In less prosperous areas, individual farms were well separated. In Iceland, farms were widely separated, and nothing like villages existed.
Typical farm settlements took the form of a central cluster of buildings enclosed by fences. Outside the fenced areas were the fields used for cultivation or grazing. Each homestead typically consisted of a longhouse and multiple out-buildings.
The Viking farmer of that age would've lived with his whole family in a longhouse (the lenght and complexity depended on wealth and materials used).
The longhouses were built around wooden frames on simple stone footings. Walls were constructed of planks, of logs, or of wattle and daub.
The houses in the movie all seem to be built very poorly and in some areas remind me more of Neolithic houses... and even those looked better than this.
Their positioning is also very hectic. Yes, villages of that age were small and as the the quotes say, clustered together. But i'm not sure if they were cluttered so closely together that i can't even tell where one farmers land begins and where the other farmers starts.
Also, for a King's land, it looks incredibly poor and poorly kept and cultivated.
And then we see The King's Longhouse...
I honestly don't know where Scandinavian Kings lived, but this is a reconstruction of a Viking Chieftans longhouse. In comparison, this King's longhouse not only looks inaccurate, but also much smaller and far less impressive.
ATTACK OF THE KILLER VIKING PALEOLITHIC BEAR MEN OF SCANDINAVIA
Yes despite how badass that sounds, it is obviously incredibly ridiculous and is basicaly on pseudo-historical fantasy.
Our main heroes fight the Vendol, who dress themselves as bears and ride into villages, wielding torches and burning them down... for really no reason other than to kill and mutilate. In the movie, we aslo see that they carry Venus figurines
The Vikings believe them to be actual bear-men creatures, but in one battle, Banderas kills one, revealing it's face to be that of a man.. According to the Wiki page of the original novel, they are supposed to be relict Neanderthals.
The Venus idols have never been attributed to Neanderthals as far as i know, but the problem is that they exist in this movie in the first place. It goes without saying and it's not a suprise.... Paleolithic men/neanderthals probably did not survive to the 10th Century AD.
As well, in the movie the Vendol ride on horses.... They are later shown to live solely inside caves by the sea.... Where did they raise the horses? There are thousands of these Vendol living in these caves... where were the pastures that they needed to raise their horses for so many warriors? It makes no sense to me, but then again, nothing in this movie makes sense.
So there you have it, that's pretty much everything i wanted to say about it.
Aside from being batshit inaccurate and stupid to the core, it's an enjoyable popcorn movie with a good atmosphere... but loses it's charm upon repeated viewings.
In short it sucks. EDIT: okay i'm too harsh, it's good fun .
Thank you for your time, i hope you enjoyed it, please offer some feedback, corrections and i'll see you around.
![](http://web.archive.org./web/20230903072411im_/https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png)
Some background: Beowulf the epic poem is an over 1,000 year old text, and is one of the oldest surviving texts in English. Old English, the language of the poem, is a different language than modern English (imagine if English didnโt have any Latin based words and had grammar more similar to modern German except with even more complicated case endings). Itโs set in a pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon (edit: Germanic) kingdom, although at the time it was written, the unknown author would have been a Christian and writing about peole who existed around a couple hundred years before she/he lived.
Recently, I read an article about The 13th Warrior on The Mary Sue. Here. I was inspired to watch the film as well.
The gist of it is that The 13th warrior is based on the Michael Chriton novel Eaters of The Dead. To quote the article โThe 1976 book was based on two sources, one being Beowulf, and the other being the very real story of Ahmad Ibn Fahdlan, an Arab explorer whose journey to Viking lands in the 10th century is one of the best primary sources about Viking culture of the age.โ
There are many interesting things about the film although it was panned by critics, i.e. the Arab, overtly Muslim character, Ahmad (Antonio Banderas) being the โcivilizedโ one while the European vikings are ones with strange customs. Thereโs also no female characters in overtly sexy outfits or scenes, and also female characters given important roles without feeling forced or shoe-horned, which is nice. I also agree with the article that the film is currently the best film adaptation of Beowulf. I would go a step further and compare it to the 2007 film.
In the original poem Beowulf, a visiting warrior helps a king defeat a monster killing people in the night (Grendel). After Grendelโs mother (another monster?) kills people in revenge, Beowulf finds her secret underwater lair and kills her. He becomes king, rules for a long time, and then a greedy dragon attacks. Beowulf kills the dragon even though many of his men abandon him, but he dies shortly after, leaving no heirs.
In 13th Warrior, the monsters are represented by an attacking rival kingdom or tribe of cannibals, but the the film includes the main beats of the poem and the battles, generally. Ahmad, the Arab is the main character, but Beowulf is the hero.
The 2007 film sticks closer to the plot in that the monsters are actual monsters, there is no Arab added, and Beowulf is king for many years before he fights the dragon.
The main difference from the poem is the Beowulf character.
In the Poem, Beowulf is framed as humble, noble, effective, generous, respectful of women, not overly violent, etc. The monsters he kills are representative of anti-social behavior, blood vengeance, and greedy kings. Throughout the tale, other tales discussing morality, especially as it applies to leadership are woven in to the narrative. At the end of the poem, the narrator is mourning the loss of the great king/person who is Beowulf.
The 2007 film seems to misread the cultural context of Beowulfโs boasting in the poem and makes him arrogant. It has him sleep with Grendelโs mother, and his son is the dragon, which ultimately kills him. In the film, Beowulf is still a hero, but heโs more similar to a tragically flawed hero you see more in Greek literature. The 2007 film warns you not to be like Beowulf, although the original poem (arguably) is mourning the loss of good men like Beowulf.
In the 13th warrior, despite being poisoned and dying, Beowulf stands up and saves his people. Although his culture seems violent and strange, once Ahmad begins to understand the viking culture better, his respect for Beowulf only grows. In that way, he is a stand-in for a modern reader of the poem; some of Beowulfโs behavior in the poem can seem arrogant or strange when not understood in the context of the Anglo-saxon culture, but once the reader understands whatโs behind his behavior, the point of the poem becomes clearer
Of course the 13th warrior isnโt a great film (edit: a good film but not great, imo) or the best possible adaptation of Beowulf the poem, but the viewer does come away admiring Beowulf, not pitying him like in the 2007 film. The 1999 film also includes nods to the written language (the Vikings donโt write but Ahmad can write and he teaches Beowulf a simple sentence), and a nod to the cultural legacy of the poem itself by having Beowulf ask Ahmad to write his story. Even to the author of the original poem, Beowulf was already a legendary figure from the past and one of the themes of the poem seems to be passing on the legacy of good men. (Edit: Itโs also about the society Beowulf lived in and how to be a good person in that society).
When talking about how to adapt written stories to films, I feel like people often discuss whether the film would be improved by sticking more closely to plot as its written or whether its appropriate to deviate. The 2007 Beowulf film shows that even if the filmmakers stick quite close to the plot, the adaptation can still fail when it fails to understand the goal or point of the source material. The 13th Warrior, while only a loose adaptation of the plot, actually embodies the spirit and message of the source more accurately. It also feels like the people behind the 1999 had a better grasp on the cultural legacy of Beowulf the poem.
Edit: I apologize if Iโve gotten any details of the poem or the film wrong. Iโm not a specialist and havenโt read/watched the poem and 2007 film in several years, but Iโve taken courses on Beowulf and Old English lit years ago
The 13th Warrior is a 1999 American historical fiction action film based on Michael Crichton's 1976 novel Eaters of the Dead,[5] which is a loose adaptation of the tale of Beowulf combined with Ahmad ibn Fadlan's historical account of the Volga Vikings.
You might ask who is the 13th Warrior? Is it Halfdan? Halfdan Ragnarsson hmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead
What interest me is their Dialogues Towards the Traveller
It seems these 3 Travellers (Aether, Lumine, Paimon) had something to do with the Calamity..Could it be that when Celestia attacked the Traveller that was trapped in a Meteorite had some Rude Awakening and became berserk dropping dark void thing that caused the "Calamity"? Or it could also be that the Traveller in the Meteorite is the Sleeping Stone from the Heavens and the other Sibling sought help from Khaenriah using advance Alchemy to awaken or even turn him/her into a weapon against Celestia but gone wrong and became "Calamity"
Hmm I must watch the Movie 13th Warrior or read Eaters of the Dead novel to glean something.
O guest from the False land, it is the time to face the truth...
...Truth voided, justice inverted...O partisan heavens
Enter not, outlander...Do not disturb the sleeping stone from the heavens.....
You...Do not Belong Here....
Companion of that Tyrant, "Fate," the traveler known as "Calamity"
(Who is the Traveller known as the Calamity? Who is that Tyrant "Fate"?)
No One Remembers....that which passed away.
..Even the ominous thing that came down from the heavens shall be ours to use...
Shatter...Shatter...this chaotic illusion...our resurgence...shall not be barred..
Envoy of the Heavens, allow me to greet you - with a vengeance!
A hollow victory over despair....is the greatest dejection of all..
Craven trespassers...the majestic one's dark curse...is inescapable...
in death...there is awakening
Who are thou to stop us....We shall cleanse the tainted things from the skies...with sacred blood...!
The Heaven's Judgement..the needle of retribution...Never forget...
(Needle of Retribution?? Hmm might be a Sword???)
Depart..Depart..! The shadow of the omnipresent strugggle is not something you can bear!
The echoes of the end..will never...subside.
Why do you Tarry in this place Traveler?...There is only death here, only memorials to injustice...
Void emptiness....everything is....void...