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[–]webby_mc_webberson 8029 points8030 points  (902 children)

Give it to me in English, doc. How bad is it?

[–]MeWantFood69 6075 points6076 points  (801 children)

Virus still gains entry into the cell as the ancestral virus (via ACE2 receptors). Vaccine efficacy has been reduced pretty significantly, previously in the 90% range. Currently, a statistically based model suggests someone who is vaccinated and received the booster has vaccine efficacy of 73% while someone who is only vaccinated but has not received the booster has 35% efficacy. Pfizer stats discussed in line 111 reinforce this model, with respect to the increased efficacy resulting from boosters. The model used made no conjectures for disease severity should someone become infected (breakthrough case). (This is for Pfizer).

This information starts in line 98 of the downloadable pdf document.

To test for severity, they typically monitor interferon response (innate anti-viral immune response) and Jack-stat pathway (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8045432/)

Many people who have severe disease have an immune system with delayed or lacking interferon response and an overactive JAK-stat pathway that results in intense inflammation in the form of a cytokines storm (cytokines: immune signaling molecules, Some of which cause inflammation).

Edit: vaccine efficacy is for symptomatic infection as stated in line 103 in the article.

[–]avocado0286 1462 points1463 points  (327 children)

Isn't the vaccine efficacy that you are talking about only against symptomatic infection? As far as I have read, protection against severe disease and hospitalization is still almost the same for omicron, no matter if you had two or three doses. I'm not saying you shouldn't get your booster of course, I am just pointing out what those 35%/73% are referring to. So to get a better chance against getting sick with omicron - take the booster! You are still well protected against a really bad outcome with two doses, though.

[–]MeWantFood69 629 points630 points  (293 children)

Agreed, let me add that edit, since you could still shed virus while asymptomatic and infect others. Thanks for that

[–]corpzeternal 59 points60 points  (20 children)

So what the comment above you stated is still true in new data? The vaccine is still effective against serious illness, hospitalization and death nearly as high as it was for Delta? Cuz that's really all care about.

[–]flompwillow 51 points52 points  (8 children)

Exactly. Goal is reduction of deaths and serious illness, good to hear vaccinations still (mostly) achieve this.

[–]Sniffnklotz 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Where can I read literature about this?

[–]HoagiesDad 8 points9 points  (4 children)

I think people expected that the vaccinations would protect them from bing infected. That’s just not the case. Washington DC and NYC a really being hit very hard right now and the percentages of people vaccinated are about as good as you can get. This makes mandates seem a bit useless. I had it this past week and it really hit me hard. I ended up in the ER, on oxygen. Fully vaccinated. My suggestion is to avoid people and mask everywhere you go.

[–]avocado0286 235 points236 points  (271 children)

True of course, but it seems we have reached a saturation point here and I'm not so worried about infecting those who don't want the vaccine... I am safe and so are those that I love.

[–]WarmOutOfTheDryer 713 points714 points  (138 children)

My only concern is to make sure we don't overwhelm the hospitals again. I've run out of empathy for those who choose not to vaccinate, but my bucket of sadness is still plenty full for the nurses and doctors who have to suffer.

[–]dustinsmusings 478 points479 points  (103 children)

Not to mention unrelated injuries and illnesses that can't be treated due to lack of capacity. In my opinion, unvaccinated-by-choice COVID patients should be at the bottom of the triage list.

[–]boomboy8511 377 points378 points  (39 children)

Wife lost her cousin a few weeks ago.....to an ear infection.

All of the hospitals were full, urgent treatment centers full etc..,. She went to get GP who wanted to put her in the hospital but tried to avoid it because if she caught Covid, she had a really good chance she'd die because of pre-existing chronic medical issues. He gave her the strongest non IV meds available and it just wasn't enough.

If the hospitals weren't overrun, she'd still be alive today instead of dying from a basic.common ear infection.

[–]cherry_ 97 points98 points  (26 children)

One can die from ear infections??? I’m so sorry, my condolences to your wife

[–]boomboy8511 93 points94 points  (2 children)

Thanks. I do appreciate the kind words.

As a general PSA, as mentioned in other places on this thread, a tooth infection or ear infection CAN kill you relatively quickly. These are not things to mess around with. I know a lot of people who can't afford dental work so they'll let a tooth fester. It's really dangerous.

[–]parasitesdisgustme 58 points59 points  (5 children)

From my understanding (not a doctor), untreated otitis media (middle-ear infections) has potential for the infection to erode the bone and enter the brain. And that can cause encephalitis and meningitis. It only happens in severe and rare cases without treatment, which, from my knowledge, can be exacerbated by underlying health problems.

[–]8732664792 114 points115 points  (10 children)

Any ENT/oral infection is incredibly dangerous due to the risk of a localized infection spreading to the brain.

[–]Alceasummer 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My grandmas twin died of an ear infection when they were kids. Before antibiotics were widely available, ear or dental infections did kill a lot of people. Because if the infection spreads, it can get to the brain fairly quickly.

[–]Botryllus 115 points116 points  (6 children)

Little Kids still can't get the vaccine. Supposedly omicron is less lethal but I still worry about long covid where my kids are concerned.

[–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (3 children)

As others have said but also can help limit breakthrough cases. Just because your family is protected that doesn’t mean one of them or you can’t catch a breakthrough case or possibly their initial doses didn’t take (vaccination isn’t perfect some people vaccinated won’t actually develop immunity so you are lowering the chance theyll catch it if they are one of those people).

Also it’s not difficult to get the booster and it’s not unsafe even though fb idiots act like it. I do actually care about those idiots and will still do things to help them even if they won’t. I recognize that they are a product of manipulation and still want to help protect them even if they don’t realize they are being dumb.

[–]ExtraPockets 15 points16 points  (20 children)

Is the booster Pfizer BNT162b2? Or some other serial number of the vaccine? I can't seem to find the exact version I had in my medical records.

[–]sexsaint 49 points50 points  (19 children)

BNT162b2

That is the research name for the Pfizer vaccine. The batch number which would be on your medical records would be shorter. I may be wrong but I also don't think there is a specific "booster" vaccine available, the booster is a third same dose.

[–]scienceislice 114 points115 points  (90 children)

Any idea what this means for the J&J vaccine? Is it similarly less effective against omicron?

[–]MeWantFood69 263 points264 points  (42 children)

Unsure. I believe J&J is adenovirus vector that uses DNA which undergoes transcription into mRNA, than translation into a protein subunit to be presented to immune cells, but not entirely sure. I also believe that one originally had efficacy in the 70% range. Data for efficacy would need to be tested for and modeled differently than Pfizer.

Since moderna uses modified rna, I believe that one could be similar to Pfizer, but I think J&J would be different. I think J&J and AstraZeneca might have similar findings since I think they are both adenovirus vector vaccines, but don’t know for sure. Just have to wait for the companies to publish their findings.

I wish biotechs would focus on other antigens aside from spike because it puts a lot of selective pressure on that particular antigen. The war needs to be fought on many fronts.

I think it’s great the FDA approved the antiviral pill though. There are promising nasal sprays with antibodies that bind to the virus in the nose, which I hope could get approved.

The more options available, the better.

[–]anamorphicmistake 65 points66 points  (7 children)

Pfizer and Moderna have pretty much the same efficacy, with Moderna having a very slight advantage on Pfizer.

J&J right now is in a very bad position, adenoviral vaccine were already a bit less effective than mRNA one, with omicron they confer very low efficacy. AZ at least has the whole 3 months between the two doses which means that people who received are on average less over the 5 months period.

If you received a shot of JJ or AZ more than 5 months ago you could ABSOLUTELY take extra precaution and book a booster vaccine ASAP.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (4 children)

I have the Canadian combo. First dose AZ second is Pfizer.

[–]Connect-Speaker 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Hey, fellow mixed-dozer Canuck! I have the trifecta now: Az, Moderna, and now Pfizer.

Are we invincible now?

[–]mok000 76 points77 points  (9 children)

Antivirals are great, but of course only work if you have the virus, they don't prevent you from getting it. A great tool in the toolbox, but vaccinations (hopefully soon with omikron specific mRNA vaccines) are the way forward to break the pandemic.

[–]MeWantFood69 32 points33 points  (5 children)

Oh, yeah, of course. I agree. They are also limited by the fact that they must be administered during the viral replication stage (so within the first few days), and offer no protection during onset of the disease.

[–]Complex_Experience83 12 points13 points  (4 children)

However, if you are routinely administering antivirals, you could shut down viral replication before you see symptoms. So in that way it is preventative.

[–]MeWantFood69 29 points30 points  (3 children)

Yeah, but that’s kind of a guessing game, or just living your life on anti-virals. We could be doing the same with tamiflu to prevent influenza, but we don’t cause it’s just… crazy, maybe? Idk. Still a nice thing to have, though.

[–]HecknChonker 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Anecdotally, my icu nurse friends are all saying they see a lot more cases from those with the JJ vaccine than they do with moderna or Pfizer.

[–]silentcmh 36 points37 points  (1 child)

The study wasn’t peer reviewed, but:

Covid-19 shots made by China’s state-owned Sinopharm and U.S. drugmaker Johnson & Johnson, as well as the Sputnik vaccine developed by Russia, were found to produce little or no antibodies against omicron in a study, as evidence of the new variant’s vaccine-evading abilities mount.

[–]NotASmoothAnon 51 points52 points  (36 children)

At this point I don't think my single dose of J&J means much. Getting a J&J booster through a trial on Wednesday.

[–]astroseksy 61 points62 points  (0 children)

If you weren't doing a trial I'd consider doing an mRNA booster. Data seems to suggest it is more effective than a J&J booster for those who started with J&J

[–]meesa-jar-jar-binks 64 points65 points  (18 children)

A single dosis of J&J is not enough anymore. It should‘ve always consisted of two doses, like Astrazeneca or the mRNA vaccines… Looks like they went with one dose because that was a good way to market the product.

[–]velocazachtor 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Plus it shortened their regulatory pathway

[–]OsmeOxys 28 points29 points  (4 children)

It should‘ve always consisted of two doses,

My understanding is that it's always been intended to be a two dose vaccine. Make it available as a one dose in order to get through regulation and into as many arms as possible as quickly as possible with limited supplies, with a follow up dose as supplies allow.

Probably a good plan too, but safe to say that didnt work out as well as it could have.

[–]anamorphicmistake 28 points29 points  (3 children)

I'm not sure that it was always intended to be two doses, but having a single shot vaccine was something that we ABSOLUTELY needed.

There are lots of people out there that have an high possibility of not showing up for the second dose, like homeless, migrants, mentally ill people... Or just person like that asshole of a friend of mine who chose JJ because "he didn't want to miss two days of work". (He is the manager of a small company and we are in Europe, mind you).

And for the OG virus and the first variants it worked very well. It probably saved tons of lives, either directly or indirectly by cutting down the transmission chain.

[–]crestonfunk 21 points22 points  (9 children)

I got J&J in April. Got VERY sick when the Delta showed up in July. It was horrible. Once I recovered, I got both Moderna shots. I have also received one Moderna booster. Hope it works and I don’t get sick again.

[–]meesa-jar-jar-binks 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sounds like you re well immunised now! I also got J&J in July and got sick with Covid a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, here in Germany, I was only allowed one additional shot with Biontech (Pfizer) last month and have to wait three more months to get a booster with Moderna. It will have to do.

[–]angel-aura 20 points21 points  (8 children)

Could you not just get pfizer or moderna at this point?

[–]NotASmoothAnon 164 points165 points  (7 children)

I could, but I'm in a J&J clinical study and I'm healthy enough to take the risk to further science. May get another booster some day if needed.

[–]TWANGnBANG 55 points56 points  (0 children)

Thank you for doing this.

[–]DanHatesCats 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Others in here are letting you know that the mRNA as a booster is recommended over J&J, which I'm sure you're already aware of. Were you informed of this upon your decision to participate? I'd imagine if the data was there when you were selected, you'd be given a longer list of terms, conditions, and information than the rest of us.

I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to analyze your own situation, and to donate your time and body to scientific advancement.

[–]littleivys 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My roommate and boyfriend both got covid recently (they got the Pfizer vaccine) but I didn't, despite having been thoroughly exposed to them, and I have J&J. Not sure if that's why, but I was really surprised

[–]RaunchyBushrabbit 15 points16 points  (9 children)

I have always wondered how boostering works (I'm far from any medical expertise but always looking to learn). I mean, as I understand it you inject a vaccine that tells the immune system what to look out for and it instructs certain cells how to respond to that particulair virus. Now a mutation or variant comes along and is so different that the immune system no longer recognizes it.

My question is, how can you inject the same vaccine and expect the body to recognize the new mutation/variant? As far as I understand there is no new information and the immune system still wouldn't respond effectively to the new mutation /variant? Now I get that boostering works, hence my question; how does that work?

I hope someone can explain it ELI5 style.

[–]MeWantFood69 31 points32 points  (3 children)

So, when a mutation occurs, it doesn’t always mean the antibodies won’t bind at all, it can mean they may not bind as well. Some may bind and some may not. So a booster increases the number of antibodies meaning more potential for more antibodies to bind while others still may not.

So I think it’s more of a matter of probability of the antibodies bind the virus when there are so many more antibodies available, despite the fact that binding affinity has been lowered

[–]RaunchyBushrabbit 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think I get it. Sounds logical as well. Just introduce more so your overall percentage goes up. Thank you for explaining.

[–]stiveooo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

thats cause the virus stills uses the same proteins to attach itself

[–][deleted] 209 points210 points  (113 children)

i dont understand the point about being boostered. is the reduction in efficiency related to the passing of time, or the number of shots? i just recently received my second shot of biontech pfizer, why would i be less protected than a boostered person?

[–][deleted] 590 points591 points  (75 children)

When your immune cells meet the same antigen repeatedly, they have a brisker and better response. This response decays with time.

Every booster will refresh it, and usually improve it.

You're likely to have a good response for 1-6 months after your booster. It'll still be there after that, but slowly declining. After a booster, you'll probably have a lot more than 6 months (and once endemic, you'll get a natural reboost periodically).

We don't have good data for that yet. Consider tetanus (5 doses in childhood schedule, usually not needed after that but given 'just in case' with some wounds), or hep B (usually 3 shots, can check antibody levels and only boost if the fall).

[–]ComradeGibbon 215 points216 points  (31 children)

Thing to consider as well. Getting a booster gives you high levels of antibodies for a couple of months. That gives you a lot of protection. Which why I got my booster early November so I could roll through the holidays with better protection.

At this point I'm down with just kicking the can down the road and hoping either there is another booster for Omicron or it burns itself out before the antibodies wane.

[–]MeWantFood69 138 points139 points  (18 children)

I think what isn’t discussed enough is the role of memory B-Cells. When our antibody concentrations are low, the memory B-Cells will come out to play, and if their membrane bound version of the antibody binds the viral Antigen, that B-cell can undergo somatic hyper Mutation and alter the antibody to better bind to Omicron or any other variant, and that B-cell will mature and start secreting an omicron antibody, better protecting us.

[–]Actual-Replacement97 49 points50 points  (2 children)

Yup. An analogy… your memory B-cells and (memory T cells) have been exposed to a specific Covid antigen. Think of it like these cells having a rifle scope zeroed in at a particular distance. If you are exposed to different mutated Covid antigen your B cells start firing at that distance previously zeroed. Maybe they have a lot of work to do to re-zero or maybe the variant is close enough that the existing antibodies work just fine. Point is you’re really close to the target from the get go. An unvaccinated person is handling a rifle with no scope and no iron sights.

[–]fngrbngbng 18 points19 points  (12 children)

I think I follow but can you ELI5 it to be sure?

[–]ShanghaiBebop 48 points49 points  (10 children)

When B cells finds an antigen (like the spike protein) that somewhat binds with its current receptor, it will multiply and clone itself, but during this process, it purposefully scrambles its DNA for the receptors through a process called hypermutation.

Through this process, the B cell hopes to produce a clone with an even better affinity (binds better) that binds to the antigen.

There are a few other processes that your immune system does to effectively do the same thing in generating better antibody responses as well.

[–]davesoverhere 30 points31 points  (9 children)

So the immune system intentionally plays with the recipe to throw out variations in hope that something works better? That’s amazing, but how does it know when a better alternative has been found and to mass produce that one?

[–]ShanghaiBebop 37 points38 points  (6 children)

Oh it gets more interesting than that.

To answer your question, there are these dendritic cells that has the antigen in the form of immune complex. They present the complex to the mutated B cells and the ones which can bind well to the immune complex triggers a signal to that B cell to go multiply again.

Now what happens if the variation accidentally mutated to attack your own cells? Well, there is also a negative selection, where they present the antigens of your own cells to the B cell, and if they bind to it, the B cells will be killed or goes dormant. Very cool stuff.

I’m massively simplifying it though, it’s a pretty heady subject as you can imagine.

[–]Dragonstache 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Great question. Each mutation produces a different B cell receptor. There are cell signaling pathways that indicate to the B cell with the receptor the “strength” of the binding. If these go off, or go off to a greater degree, the B cell replicates. The details of this I knew at one point, but no longer do, but knowing it’s overall process is enough.

[–]TistedLogic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

how does it know when a better alternative has been found and to mass produce that one?

The virii will start dying faster.

[–]robodrew 35 points36 points  (3 children)

The next booster will likely be formulated around Omicron and probably whatever the next upcoming strain is. Moderna, at least, has said that their vaccine can be reformulated quickly, in the range of ~6 weeks, and would not require Phase III trials. I wouldn't be surprised to start hearing about Omicron boosters in the works for early-to-mid 2022.

[–]Bighead7889 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Haha booked an appointment for the 3rd shot in late November, I will have to wait til January to get the actual shot ! Holidays are less fun for sure

[–]Corpse666 13 points14 points  (0 children)

It is 10 weeks with the phizer vaccine, after about that amount of time the effectiveness of the vaccine drops to 45 percent. Moderns at least right now seems to hold up better at around 70 percent after 9 weeks against this variant, these numbers are from Israeli study

[–]umpshaplapa 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Haha, I did the same thing and then got what I assume is omni on the 19th from work. It’s spreading at insane levels here

[–]Indifferentchildren 83 points84 points  (14 children)

Last I heard, a tetanus booster is recommended once every 10 years.

[–]st4n13lMPH | Public Health 45 points46 points  (8 children)

That is the current recommendation for adults

[–]ThaWalkingDude 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I had a course of 3 tetanus shots, spaced out by a couple of weeks, a few years back and I was told I was good for life from that.

The nurse told me this replaced the old system of boosters every x amount of years (I can't remember the time period she gave).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah the Tdap is good to get every 10 years especially if you are going to be around newborns. Tetanus is part of that but the newborn thing is more for whooping cough.

[–]Enartloc 26 points27 points  (3 children)

Do note the comparison of respiratory viruses vaccines to other sort of vaccines (tetanus, hep B like in your example) is not that reliable, generally respiratory viruses are a bigger pain in the ass, even ignoring mutation because they can replicate in multiple parts of the body (usually both upper and lower respiratory tracts).

[–]robertson4379 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Does this explain why I might have experienced a more severe response (fever, headache, nausea) when I was boosted than I did after my second dose? And now that I think about it, I didn’t have any flu-like symptoms after my first shot…. Many of my colleagues experienced a similar pattern of symptoms over their 3-dose regimen. Note: I got Moderna the first two times and Pfizer the third.

[–]MeWantFood69 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Adaptive immune response increases in magnitude and response time with each subsequent infection. Primary infection, your adaptive immune system could take a week or two to respond, but secondary, a few days and much more concentrated antibody response, tertiary, greater so. But That doesn’t necessarily Mean you need a billion boosters. It’s really about concentration of antibodies circulation in your lymph to respond.

[–]jabarr 38 points39 points  (33 children)

Over time your immune response decays. Booster is only recommended 3-6mo after your second shot. Just having gotten your second shot now, your immune response is likely similar to folks getting boosters now.

[–]Ex7reMeFx 19 points20 points  (6 children)

Currently, a statistically based model suggests someone who is vaccinated and received the booster has vaccine efficacy of 73% while someone who is only vaccinated but has not received the booster has 35% efficacy.

Second time I've read this, but I'm slightly confused. By booster, do you mean 3rd vaccination or more, or someone who has at least two doses administered already?

[–]MeWantFood69 34 points35 points  (3 children)

Booster is the dose beyond the recommended doses (for Pfizer and moderna, would be a third lower concentration dose, for J&J a second dose)

[–]graven_raven 453 points454 points  (50 children)

It means the vaccine is not working so well for Omnicron as for the ancestral (original) virus.

For people who were vaccinated and never got inffected, the antibody neutralization is 22 times less effective against Omnicron comparing to the ancestral virus.

But for people who were previously infected and vaccinated, the level of neutralization of Omicron was similar to the level of neutralization of ancestral virus observed in the vaccination only group.

[–]MeWantFood69 107 points108 points  (4 children)

But in line 111 Pfizer did their own study which confirmed the predicted 22 fold drop was actually less, and antibody neutralization was higher than modeled.

[–][deleted] 171 points172 points  (3 children)

Pfizer did their own study

Proceed with caution, even in the world of published peer reviewed science

[–]ihopethisisvalidBS | Environmental Science | Plant and Soil 52 points53 points  (2 children)

Yeah, science doesn’t rely on a single study. It’s all about repeated results from different authors.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Basically what you’re saying is if you had covid then got vaccinated, you’re as protected as someone who got the booster?

[–]ExtraGloves 4 points5 points  (6 children)

I can't comment on long term effects which is basically all I worry about as a healthy adult, but literally everyone has omnicron here now vaxxed booster no booster and it has been less than a bad cold. The tests are pointless because by the time you get the results you don't have the virus anymore. The home tests always say negitive even though people definately have the virus.

At this point you're vaxxed just live your life it's not going away and you prob have had it without knowing it it's so minor. Don't go to a concert and then hang with grandma. Be smart. Get vaxxed and boosted. If you feel sick stay home. Do that anyways. Wear a mask when needed.

We can't shut down the country again it's killing us way more than a slight sniffle.

[–]Hara-Kiri 62 points63 points  (10 children)

Pretty good really. Omicron seems significantly milder (although there's not enough evidence to say that for sure amongst the elderly). Most people will have symptoms similar to the common cold. South Africa shows up to 80% less hospitalisations from Omicron, which everyone decided to ignore the South African scientists for some reason, but now the UK shows up to 70% less hospitalisations from Omicron.

All this fearmongering about vaccines not working isn't true. It's about stopping symptomatic covid. The vaccines still have high efficacy in stopping hospitalisations and deaths.

The only real concern is how quickly Omicron spreads.

[–]jawnlerdoe 34 points35 points  (1 child)

My girlfriend and I recently contracted omicron.

She’s boosted and is borderline asymptomatic but positive.

I’m not boosted and feel like I have the worst cold of my life, but I’m almost over it 4 days later.

We got it from hanging out with 2 other people both of whom were vaccinated.

[–]Hara-Kiri 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yeah it's spreading like wildfire even if you're vaccinated. Me and my girlfriend are both boosted but since writing that my girlfriend has tested positive. Currently hoping it's a false/contaminated reading since she's in emergency services and was in a covid positive household earlier today.

I hope you feel completely better soon.

[–]antanas123 217 points218 points  (14 children)

Could someone explain to me why does the immune response to different “brands” of vaccine differ? Does it all depend on the mechanism of the vacc ?

[–]hix3r 202 points203 points  (11 children)

Not just the vaccine mechanism.

Pfizer and Moderna are both "mRNA in lipid nanoparticles" based and the mRNA is very similar, basically identical. There is still a difference between them because Moderna opted to use a higher dose of mRNA per shot and accepted that it will mean a higher rate of side effects.

Pfizer was more cautious since they were the first to market and there were other considerations, so they used a lower dose to minimize the chance of side effects but hit a good immune response (just imagine, any side effects would have caused a panic about this new vaccine, which happened with Moderna and the myo/pericarditis in young adolescents in early summer.)

For these vaccines to have an effect they have to float to a human cell, fuse with the cell membrane so the mRNA is inside, then it will automatically start to get translated into a protein by the cell's own "protein-making" infrastructure which is mainly in the cytoplasm.

AstraZeneca (AZ), J&J, and the russian Sputnik V vaccine all use adenoviruses (chimpanzee in th AZ, human in the others) with their DNA modified to only encode the spike protein similar to mRNA vaccines.

To have an effect they need to float to a human cell, bind to it, fuse with the cell membrane, then the viral DNA needs to travel to the nucleus to be trascribed into RNA (as this is only done in the cell nucleus in human cells, so the viral DNA needs to enter the nucleus to hijack the cell's transcription mechanism) which will need to get translated outside in the cytoplasm to the protein.

So more can go wrong here and depending on how much goes wrong the efficacy goes down. One factor that was already known is that if the immune system already met the specific adenovirus type used in the vaccine earlier, then some part of the vaccine will just get eliminated by the immune system before they can get into the cells. So different regions of the Earth need to use different adenovirus vectors that are foreign to that part so the immune system doesn't interfere.

This is why AZ decided to use a chimpanzee virus, which humans didn't really have contact with. Sputnik V used different human adenovirus types in ther two shots, Ad-26 for the first, Ad-5 for the second. J&J is a single shot it uses Ad-26. So one of the questions in the countries that were vaccinating with Sputnik V is that how effective would a J&J vaccine be as a 3rd booster since the body has already seen and developed an immune response to Ad-26 at that point.

[–]ProfSchodinger 21 points22 points  (1 child)

So does that mean we basically cannot use Ad26 as vaccine vector in the future? Are we in danger of running out of adenoviruses?

[–]hix3r 19 points20 points  (0 children)

So does that mean we basically cannot use Ad26 as vaccine vector in the future?

Hopefully not. It depends how much of an immune response a body produces against the vector itself. The adenovirus in the vaccines doesn't replicate itself so the only amount of the vector virus is the minimal amount that is already present in the shot. It just needs to get the DNA into the cells, which will then produce only the encoded spike protein in much greater number.

So, hopefully the amount of the vector is low enough that no significant long term immune response develops against it and that small response will wane/disappear over time.

However if somebody would, let's say give booster shots every 6 months with the same vector virus the efficacies will get lower and lower for those vaccines since you are effectively vaccinating against the vector virus as well although with much less efficiency.

Are we in danger of running out of adenoviruses?

Not really, there are close to a hundred known adenovirus serotypes, about half of them are actively circulating in different populations around the Earth currently. The other half disappeared from circulation but samples still exist in labs. There are also other types of viruses suitable for vaccines and other types of vaccines.


All in all I don't think it's a major concern for future vaccines. What happens when you vaccinate with a viral vector vaccine that the body already has a preexisting immunity to? Not much except the vaccine efficacy will be bad, which should be apparent during vaccine clinical trials, efficacy studies etc., so if you are developing a vaccine you find out very quickly during clinical trials if the target population has a preexisting immunity to the viral vector, so you can switch.

[–]ChocolateBomber 139 points140 points  (0 children)

Mechanism, dose (size), formulation, etc are different even between same mechanism (mRNA), so each brand will be different since the products are different. They were individually tested due to these differences.

Edit: added word for clarity

[–]Charred01 664 points665 points  (92 children)

Any info on moderna? My first two were Phizer third moderna.

[–]jakebate 285 points286 points  (7 children)

Ditto...also looking for info around the mixed booster that was previously suggested.

[–]Im_Never_Witty 106 points107 points  (31 children)

I’m opposite, first 2 moderna then Pfizer booster. Would love to see the study for that.

[–]Darrelc 18 points19 points  (27 children)

Same, how was the post reaction to Moderna compared to the Pfizer booster for you?

[–]Im_Never_Witty 40 points41 points  (10 children)

My wife and I both had mild symptoms for all 3 shots. Just moderate arm soreness. One thing we both did for all of the shots was drown ourselves in water and get it in our dominant arms.

[–]twigboy 12 points13 points  (7 children)

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[–]kmaniadee 28 points29 points  (3 children)

The logic is that since you use your dominant arm more, it's being moved more, and increased arm movement can sometimes help the post-shot soreness go away faster.

[–]twigboy 22 points23 points  (0 children)

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[–]joelene1892 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I too would like to know. I always got it in non-dominant so that my primary arm is fully functional the next day.

[–]JesusWantsYouToKnow 17 points18 points  (8 children)

My n=1, I had the same series (Pfizer for first 2, moderna booster on Nov 17th) and I tested positive with Omicron on Dec 21st after sitting 3 seats away from someone at lunch on Saturday Dec 18th who subsequently turned positive on Sunday Dec 19th.

It's been very mild, scratchy throat, postnasal drip, sinus pressure, and day 0 I had a pretty solid headache, but that's it. My sore throat is getting better and I'm just dealing with a little lingering congestion now.

My husband had Pfizer for all of his shots and we gave up on even attempting to isolate since we had already had tons of contact as I began getting symptoms. We've been quarantined together since Tuesday and he never started testing positive on antigen tests, so I think there's some significant variability in either/both the viability of shed virus in people fully vaccinated or the protective effect against symptomatic disease.

He'll do a PCR tomorrow to determine if he has a low level infection that isn't detectable via antigen LFT.

[–]Ok-Kaleidoscope5627 11 points12 points  (2 children)

You're literally describing what I'm going through right now... Hopefully this is as bad as it gets... Only problem for me is that I'm visiting my parents. They didn't tell me they had symptoms until I had arrived. I can feel the scratchy throat and nasal drip starting.

Also everyone tested negative on the rapid tests. Waiting on pcr results now but I have a feeling in my gut that it's covid. They keep insisting its just the flu which makes zero sense. Even half assed covid measures obliterated the flu yet somehow everyone is suddenly sick? Only one virus circulating right now that fits that profile.

[–]Wrjdjydv 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Moderna seems to confer a slightly better protection also against omicron based on what I've read in the media. Since the two are almost identical this is probably related to Moderna's higher dosage.

[–]dodoroach 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Im just recovering from covid. I had 2 doses of moderna. Still got infected presumably by omicron.

[–]crusader86 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I currently have COVID, 2x Moderna and a booster three weeks ago. It sucks, but I can only imagine how bad it would be without it.

[–]43729857501246 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Fine to mix (but do not trust me, ask at your vaccination center, of course). Combination of the two most different, top used, vaccines Pfizer (BNT162b2) and AstraZeneca (AZD1222) was effective (I’m too tired to find the references).

Specially for your question, Moderna (mRNA-1273) and Pfizer (BNT162b2) are basically identical. Same genetics and delivery:

Both have the genetic design of: reference sequence with one modification; p.(Lys986_Val987delinsProPro) - stabilizing x2 (PP)

Both have delivery: lipid-nanoparticle.

By the way, nearly every vaccine has identical genetic designs. If viral escape mutations arise against one vaccine, it will also escape all of the most commonly used vaccines world-wide. I would love to see more pre-emptive design variation, but that is a logistics problem. To summarise the design: some are reference sequence only, some have the stabilisation modification, some have an additional furing cleavage modification of p.[Arg682Ser;p.Arg685Gln] - furin cleavage x2 (SRAG), and some vaccine can include variants of concern but they are not mainstream. Some other vaccines have a different delivery system; viral vector rather than lipid-based.

In my anecdotal opinion, the genetic designs are all basically identical and hand-waving comparisons are not useful; the sampling variation between studies is more likely greater that the variation between immunological response. i.e. the comparisons in popular media misunderstand the problem of cross-study statistics. The vaccines help us all, so I hope people continue to use logic and reason and ignore the small minority pushing anti-science in the news. I’m saddened to see what people say about my area of work; decades of dedicated research insulted by angry confused anti-vaxers.

[–]nanopicofared 242 points243 points  (42 children)

Neutralization of ancestral virus was much higher in infected and vaccinated versus vaccinated only participants but both groups showed a 22-fold escape from vaccine elicited neutralization by the Omicron variant. However, in the previously infected and vaccinated group, the level of residual neutralization of Omicron was similar to the level of neutralization of ancestral virus observed in the vaccination only group. These data support the notion that, provided high neutralization capacity is elicited by vaccination/boosting approaches, reasonable effectiveness against Omicron may be maintained.

appears to be some good news

[–][deleted] 208 points209 points  (41 children)

essentially, if you get the booster, then the vaccine is just as effective against omicron as it was against previous variants.

That's what Pfizer is saying right now, and it's purely for the pfizer vaccine.

[–]OldManDan20 740 points741 points  (69 children)

There is more to immunity than neutralizing antibodies…

[–]petrilstatusfull 350 points351 points  (28 children)

Care to elaborate for us bricklayers?

[–]OldManDan20 380 points381 points  (23 children)

Sure thing. So, neutralizing antibodies work by binding to the antigen (the antigen in this case is the spike protein) and the physical act of binding is what neutralizes the protein and makes it so that it can’t function and, voila, you stop the virus in its tracks.

However, antibodies have something called an Fc receptor (edit: Fc region not receptor). It’s essentially the butt of an antibody that sticks out from whatever it is bound to. This Fc region can do several things such as signal to cells to come by and swallow up the antigen. None of these functions are tested for in a neutralization experiment.

Your body also has T-cells that also can recognize specific antigens completely independent of antibodies.

So, these neutralization experiments can be useful but they don’t tell the whole story at all.

[–]petrilstatusfull 61 points62 points  (6 children)

Thank you! So it seems like there's a chance that in practice, the vaccines will be at least slightly more effective than this specific piece of research is saying?

[–]OldManDan20 121 points122 points  (2 children)

Based on everything we know, I would expect these vaccines to remain very protective against severe disease from omicron, which is what really matters. But those data aren’t quite in yet so I don’t think we can make a definite statement right now.

[–]EchoChamberStylin 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The tldr I was looking for — thank you!

[–]TropicalLemming 17 points18 points  (1 child)

I am constantly amazed by how complicated and intricate the human body is. All the different processes happening on a macro to micro level is almost unbelievable.

[–]adhdnubee 116 points117 points  (3 children)

Yes! So much this! I studied Fc effector function and adaptive immunity, specifically antibody mediated phagocytosis as a correlate of protection in vaccines.

[–]hakz 118 points119 points  (11 children)

Any news on the efficacy of the AstraZeneca vaccine?

[–]steve_gus 38 points39 points  (2 children)

Im in the UK and had two AZ shots. Booster was a Moderna. This is supposed to be 75% effective.

A lot if older people got Az and there doesnt seem to be a major uptick in bad infection yet.

[–]MistWeaver80[S] 313 points314 points  (35 children)

Omicron overpowers key COVID antibody treatments in early tests. Nearly all of the monoclonal antibodies used to prevent severe disease fail to stand up to the new variant, laboratory assays show.

Strained hospitals bracing for a COVID-19 surge caused by the quickly spreading Omicron variant could face another grim possibility: preliminary experiments suggest that most of the antibody treatments for the disease are powerless against Omicron.

Doctors use artificial versions of natural antibodies to stave off severe COVID-19 in high-risk people who are infected with the coronavirus. But a slew of publications posted on preprint servers report laboratory evidence that Omicron is totally or partially resistant to all currently available treatments based on these monoclonal antibodies. The publications have not yet been peer reviewed, but some of the companies that manufacture antibody therapies already concede that their products have lower potency against Omicron than against other variants.

The preprints report that only two antibodies show strong evidence of retaining some ability to thwart the variant: sotrovimab, developed by Vir Biotechnology in San Francisco, California, and GSK, headquartered in London; and DXP-604, which is undergoing clinical trials in China and was developed by BeiGene and Singlomics, both based in Beijing. These findings are already affecting health-care policy. US health officials have said they will ration sotrovimab, allotting it to states on the basis of numbers of infections and hospitalizations and the prevalence of Omicron. But many countries either can’t meet the impending demand for sotrovimab or can’t access it at all, which will increase the burden for an “already stressed health-care system”, says Rajesh Gandhi, an infectious-disease physician at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.

Some monoclonal-antibody treatments for COVID-19 consist of a single antibody; others of a cocktail of several. The details differ, but all of the monoclonal antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 bind to the virus’s spike protein, preventing the virus from infecting human cells. The treatments reduce the risk of severe COVID-19 by up to 85%. But when virologists saw that Omicron has a multitude of mutations concentrated on its spike protein, they feared what it would mean for these treatments. The outcome was even worse than they anticipated, says Olivier Schwartz, a virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris and a co-author of one of the preprints “We didn’t expect to see such a shift in the antibodies’ effectiveness,” he says.

To test the treatments’ powers against Omicron, researchers combined either live SARS-CoV-2 or artificial ‘pseudoviruses’ that have traits of the actual pathogen with varying concentrations of each antibody treatment. They then pitted the antibody–virus combination against cells that express ACE2, the receptor that the virus uses to gain entry to human cells. Researchers then identified the concentration of each treatment that would cut viral replication in half, as measured by the number of infected cells. Most of the drugs couldn’t reach that threshold, even at an extremely high concentration. The antibodies made by Regeneron Pharmaceuticals in Tarrytown, New York, for example, “have diminished potency against Omicron”, the company conceded in a 16 December statement.

Sotrovimab is the best of the lot. Even so, the concentration required to halve viral replication was roughly three times higher for Omicron than for other coronavirus variants. Although sotrovimab’s drop in potency against the new variant is significant, says Stuart Turville, a virologist at the Kirby Institute in Sydney, Australia, and a co-author of one of the preprints, “it’s nothing like what we saw for the others”. That might be because sotrovimab targets a part of the spike protein that is unchanged across many related coronaviruses. Some of the studies found that two antibodies developed by AstraZeneca in Cambridge, UK, retained some neutralization power — although it was significantly diminished. Schwartz adds that it’s important to complement the neutralization data with actual clinical data to confirm the findings.

Scientists are racing to determine exactly how severe Omicron infections are, compared with infections caused by other variants, such as Delta. But if the antibody arsenal is wiped out, physicians will be without a key tool to prevent severe disease. “If Omicron bites hard, it’ll be a recipe for disaster,” says Turville. Gandhi says that this calls for an expedited review and production of oral antiviral drugs such as Paxlovid (nirmatrelvir and ritonavir) and molnupiravir, which are expected to be effective against Omicron because of their mechanism of action, and which are cheaper than antibody treatments. Paxlovid manufacturer Pfizer, based in New York City, reported on 14 December that the antiviral was 89% effective at preventing hospitalization and death in high-risk patients when administered soon after symptoms began. Another challenge will be to discern whether an individual is infected with Delta or Omicron, says Gandhi, because that will determine which treatments are most likely to be effective. Ideally, physicians would have access to a quick test to identify the variant. But without such a tool, he says, they will have to rely on Omicron’s prevalence in their local

[–]Alastor3[🍰] 67 points68 points  (33 children)

Does that mean they will create a vaccine specific for omicron or not if it's so different ?

[–]Blrfl 168 points169 points  (9 children)

Walter Reed has developed one that they think will cover all of COVID and the rest of the SARS family.

[–]hacksoncode 50 points51 points  (3 children)

That's more of an efficient way to deliver a dozen vaccines at the same time, but yeah... The concept is super cool.

Edit: But hasn't entered stage 2/3 human trials... so we don't know whether this clever trick actually works or not.

[–]buddascrayon 18 points19 points  (1 child)

But hasn't entered human trials.

The article states explicitly that they completed phase one of human trials earlier this month.

Walter Reed’s Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle COVID-19 vaccine, or SpFN, completed animal trials earlier this year with positive results. Phase 1 of human trials, wrapped up this month, again with positive results that are undergoing final review, Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch, said in an exclusive interview with Defense One on Tuesday. The new vaccine will still need to undergo phase 2 and phase 3 trials.

[–]Herbicidal_Maniac 84 points85 points  (13 children)

Moderna is gearing up for a trial as we speak.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (6 children)

Moderna's CEO said that they plan to roll out the Omicron vaccine in March.

[–]jonny80 42 points43 points  (5 children)

I think by March Omicron would have gone through the majority of the population in most countries unless strict locked downs are implemented

[–]Prostar14 43 points44 points  (3 children)

Yes, but by being the most dominant variant by far, won't it become the new basis for most new mutations? Might as well rebase on Omicron.

[–]jonny80 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It is not guaranteed, omicron didn’t evolve from Delta, it did from the original coronavirus that started the pandemic

[–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (0 children)

Comment above is talking about a treatment for someone who gets covid, monoclonal antibodies, not the effectiveness of vaccines.

Previously, if you weren't vaccinated, then monoclonal antibodies would do a pretty good job of saving your life.

Now, monoclonal antibodies are completely ineffective.

What this means is that vaccination is the only effective tool we have against omicron.

From the article linked to in the original post:

However, in the previously infected and vaccinated group, the level of residual neutralization of Omicron was similar to the level of neutralization of ancestral virus observed in the vaccination only group. These data support the notion that, provided high neutralization capacity is elicited by vaccination/boosting approaches, reasonable effectiveness against Omicron may be maintained.

In other words, the vaccines are still working fine, even without modifying the boosters to account for changes in Omicron. But you need to get the booster in order for this to be the case. See this press release

[–]floorbx 34 points35 points  (3 children)

This article is confusing from its title. The last line in the article: “, in the previously infected and vaccinated group, the level of residual neutralization of Omicron was similar to the level of neutralization of ancestral virus observed in the vaccination only group. These data support the notion that, provided high neutralization capacity is elicited by vaccination/boosting approaches, reasonable effectiveness against Omicron may be maintained.”

[–]Silist 21 points22 points  (2 children)

Gosh I had to read it a few times

Basically it’s saying that if vaccination and booster shots are handled appropriately, we can expect to see it continue to be reasonably effective against Omicron

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (4 children)

Does having had the virus affect the percentages any?

If vaccine + booster is 73% efficacy and no booster is 35%, would having had the virus previously increase those percentages since you've technically had more exposure?

[–]obeluss 21 points22 points  (0 children)

“Neutralization of ancestral virus was much higher in infected and vaccinated versus vaccinated only participants but both groups showed a 22-fold escape from vaccine elicited neutralization by the Omicron variant. “

[–]alrtight 8 points9 points  (0 children)

any news on comparison to moderna's efficacy against omnicron?

[–]gslice 45 points46 points  (35 children)

Question. I had my two Pfizer doses and got omicron. Recovering now. Is it still recommended to get a booster after an active infection ? Google ain’t helping. Thanks all.

[–]evm2103 7 points8 points  (7 children)

I appreciate the evidenced-based findings that are promoted here. I’m honestly experiencing COVID fatigue working with kids in NYC. This is the second time I got COViD, I got COViD in August (assuming it was the delta variant) and now again. I have all three shots of Pfizer. If the variant is known to be mild, do you think we will reach a point where we don’t request forced isolation? I have followed all the rules and I keep getting COVID and I’m honestly tired of isolating after potential and real exposures that happen almost weekly in NYC.

[–]Spacemage 18 points19 points  (5 children)

I'm not certain this is the right place to be asking this, but let's say Omicron is relatively benign, wouldn't that be better to have that spreading than the initial virus since it wasn't benign? That way we would be building up immunity to a similar virus that is just using us as a host and not trying to kill us - since that's stupid for viruses to do?

[–]Sea-Selection-399 28 points29 points  (3 children)

its not stupid to kill the host. Its stupid to kill the host before being able to replicate. Covid replicates up to 2 weeks prior to symptoms showing, so killing the host doesnt matter in this case. Its already done what it wanted to, and at this point dying doesnt matter. Thats what makes covid so potentially dangerous. You could have a strain that kills you 2 weeks after youve already given it 5 other people.

[–]Nubaa 5 points6 points  (2 children)

That's what covid does currently, sure. But it would spread even better if it didn't kill the host and replicated for 4 weeks instead for example.

It's too early to tell at this point. However, the initial data on Omicron suggests that it's more contagious but less lethal, suggesting that that may (hopefully) be the trend going forward.

[–]Pichuco 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I guess one of the problems is: more host, more virus multiplication, more chances of a worst variant among us.

But at the same time i think that it is already set in motion, as people are trying to return to a normality and this thing is god dawn exponential, and really uncontrollable.

[–]alrtight 7 points8 points  (1 child)

what about comparison to moderna booster? is it better to get that booster instead?

[–]JohnnyFoxborough 28 points29 points  (16 children)

Explain to me why we get a new flu shot every year but despite billions more in research, we are still stuck with a vaccine formulated to a variant over a year old. I understand there can still be a lot of efficacy with a non matching vaccine but we should be trying for a perfect match.

Where are the delta vaccines? How far off are the omicron vaccines?

[–]Kylesmomabigfatbtch 47 points48 points  (6 children)

IIRC the flu vaccines are made based on what scientists PREDICT will be the more dangerous and prevalent variants of the flu that given year. If they’re right, then everyone’s vaccinated against that flu variant before that variant has even spread that much. But with covid, these variants are entirely brand new and unable to have vaccines developed on ahead of their prevalence. I could be talking out of my ass, but I swear I’ve read about this before. If anybody has a better grasp on this concept, please correct me.

[–]Matt111098 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The important part is that various flu families are out there circulating in the world already, compared to the new coronavirus strains which just formed months ago, since you didn't make that clear.

[–]jmnugent 7 points8 points  (2 children)

The short answer to this (I believe).. is simply that:.. the Flu is endemic. (it's so entrenched in our society.. it's basically here to stay). Especially with world-wide travel and constant migration of humans,. .eliminating the Flu is not only a technical and medical challenge.. but a social and logistical challenge.

Good Wikipedia article on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomyxoviridae (4 different types of Flu virus,. interesting circular graph about halfway down on Right side.. that shows the overlap between Species. Looks like us and the Pigs are pretty F'ed).

Influenza is a complex and crafty little guy.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

How is covid not here to stay? It seems like we will have to learn to live with it.