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[–]reimaginealec 2882 points2883 points  (141 children)

Considering the vaccine’s development was funded using $2.5 billion from the U.S. government… yea. Maximum acceptable price would be direct cost to manufacture.

[–]NewFaded 459 points460 points  (85 children)

And they already had the basic formula down right? Not saying that last bit wasn't expensive, but $2.5 billion expensive?

[–]joshTheGoods 473 points474 points  (40 children)

First and foremost, let's all be clear about this 2.5B number. 1 billion of that was a research partnership (through BARDA). The other 1.5 billion was to purchase doses (and quietly to be front of the line). That number has risen up to IIRC, 10B we've spend overall on doses?

Point is, the help for the last leg of research was around 1B, and that's not just about pivoting to a whole different disease, it was about getting trials expedited. We basically paid to get this stuff ready for actual mass deployment on a crazy timeline.

We can and should argue that COVID vaccines were largely funded by the government, but using the last mile COVID costs to make that argument isn't really fair. We should be making this argument which points out that this is all built on fundamental research done with government grant money often in public universities. Moderna doesn't exist without all of the foundational research that we paid for. However, once they get to the point where they've raised hundreds of millions and have demonstrated their game changing technology, 1B from the govt to quickly pivot is peanuts. They were already well on the way to unicorn status using almost only private investment pre-COVID.

[–]dragonsonketamine 91 points92 points  (15 children)

It’s weird to me that there’s this huge focus on government funded research in universities being the main source of pharmaceutical drugs…

13% of R&D is in universities (which are partially, about 50%, funded by the government), while 10% of R&D is straight government research centers.

73% of R&D is entirely from pharmaceutical companies.

[–]joshTheGoods 85 points86 points  (10 children)

My gut reaction (so, grain of salt required) is that there's a huge difference between fundamental research and applied research. It's really hard to make a business case for fundamental research, so it's left to public funding. As soon as fundamental research reveals a potentially profitable application, investors are happy to take a shot at making the application a reality. So, perhaps in pure dollars, the fundamental research is cheaper, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the value of the fundamental research is less than the value of the applied research. Not many private companies are going to spend billions over several decades exploring ideas for fusion, but you're damn sure seeing a lot of private companies today thinking the basic research has given us enough info to take a swing at commercial applications. I don't think one exists without the other regardless of the dollar amounts associated with the two research types. Hell, chasing reliable applications might just be inherently more expensive type of research ... sort of like how architectural design might always be relatively cheap in comparison with the total cost of building the structure.

[–]Voltthrower69 38 points39 points  (4 children)

Legislation was passed in the 80s to give public research over for private corporations to turn into products to profit off of. The government hands out grants as well wort multiple millions of dollars. NIH research influences tons of research and development.

[–]joshTheGoods 16 points17 points  (1 child)

The government hands out grants as well wort multiple millions

And having participated in writing a grant proposal some 15 odd years ago, I can tell you every damned penny was hard earned.

[–]Not_FinancialAdvice 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I mean, it's a de-risking strategy; the public finances the highest risk research for the possible novel payoffs, even when they aren't clear. The private dollars go into turning fundamental discoveries into product, as you noted, when there's a viable business case.

[–]sreesid 20 points21 points  (0 children)

As someone who has worked in both academia and companies, while the amount of money is accurate, the relative contributions are not. The majority of the R&D dollars spent by companies is actually to develop the final bit of the product to the market, which involves mass clinical trials. Most of the basic research necessary to develop the initial products still happens in academia. Government funding encourages high risk-reward research in academic labs.

[–]DefinitelyNotACopMan 9 points10 points  (2 children)

For anyone interested, the book The Entrepreneurial State basically is a full book dedicated to show what the above comment does for this vaccine but for most critical areas of the economy.

Government funds all the risky hard shit, private companies carry things the last mile and then reap all the rewards, which they use to lobby the government into providing them even more benefits and tax cuts, etc.

The myth that Governments cant do good business is important because it ensures this extremely lucrative arrangement continues

[–]joshTheGoods 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The Entrepreneurial State

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a read.

[–]DefinitelyNotACopMan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's a damn good one, the kind of book that's worth taking notes while you read for sure. I didnt and now I have to reread it 😅

[–]DuePomegranate 62 points63 points  (4 children)

The basic formula is the cheapest part. The expensive parts are running the clinical trials on tens of thousands of people, and ramping up and acquiring the capability to produce hundreds of millions of doses.

To be clear, the $2.5 billion was split up between $1 billion for R&D, and $1.5 billion to order 100 million doses (so $15 per dose).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-vaccine-idUSKCN2572T5

And Moderna did not start off with the manufacturing capacity to produce anywhere near that number of doses. They were previously doing cancer vaccines and Phase 1 trials of a CMV vaccine, nothing large-scale at all. The actual manufacturing of the Covid vaccine was accomplished by paying Lonza to do it, and Lonza in turn had to retool their manufacturing facilities.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/moderna-lonza-manufacturing-deal/

[–]DigiQuip 169 points170 points  (26 children)

The most expensive part was distribution because very few places, geographically, had the necessary means for storage. For a lot of the country I believe the vaccine was only viable for a few days. Of course, those places also had the highest antivaxx rates.

[–]nathanj37 86 points87 points  (7 children)

You're thinking of the Pfizer vaccine. Moderna has always had workable storage.

[–]adrenaline_XBoosted! ✨💉✅ 45 points46 points  (2 children)

Initially, because they went with temperatures they knew would be the most stable.

As time went on we saw the storage requirements drop and how long they could be used thawed..

[–]BigFaceCoffeeShop 13 points14 points  (1 child)

As someone who works with RNA almost daily, this was absolutely the only way to do it until we had conclusive evidence it was stable. Hell, someone sneezes 5 benches over and I'm afraid my samples are destroyed.

[–]ShadowPouncer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As most people replying here seem to have missed the 'storage' part, it's important to note that 'distribution' means a whole lot more than just getting the vials to the locations.

That's not trivial for something that has to be kept that cold, but it's not insanely difficult either, not if you only need to do it every few weeks as they go through a supply.

The problem is that you have to store it at those temperatures, and getting refrigeration units that can handle that job, all at once, in the middle of international lock downs, is a big job.

It's a really big job.

And trying to store it in pharmacies/etc for a week with just dry ice and a cooler isn't all that much smaller of a job either. You have to get that dry ice from somewhere, transport it as well, handle that safely, etc.

And when you're trying to do that across the entire country at once, you can't just 'bring more in from somewhere else' to cover an area. You need it all over the place, in large quantities, possibly beyond what can easily even be produced.

If you have more (and larger) local refrigeration facilities, you need less dry ice, and less transportation, because you can (in theory) use those as staging areas and periodically transport from those to the individual locations.

Same deal on having more and larger more local supplies of dry ice.

But when you're trying to coordinate this all across the entire country, including in entire states which don't really want to play ball, this shit gets expensive fast.

[–]ZPGuru 4 points5 points  (8 children)

I spent several years driving a Kia around to deliver refrigerated medication to the sticks. This sounds unrealistic to me.

[–]TacoGuitar 18 points19 points  (7 children)

Pfizer originally required minus 70 Celsius. Did your Kia have a way to keep things that cold?

[–]ZPGuru 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Yeah there were locked pharmaceutical boxes full of dry ice. Some individual doses of things I transported cost over 50k according to my bosses. I assume that was the sales price and that they had insurance on it and it was probably bullshit though.

[–]Kraven_howl0 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I've seen vehicles drive around my city with a sign saying something like "chemicals on board" (or something similar) and was wondering if they make you label your vehicle when you transport stuff like that? I assume it was some sort of legit sticker due to my city being known for its hospital.

[–]ZPGuru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No. I took large numbers of shopping bags stuffed with methadone and opiates into clinics in the worst parts of Baltimore. We never labeled anything or had signs on our vehicle. I almost got mobbed by hoards of methadone zombies even without them.

[–]AntiGravityBacon 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Dry ice is around -80 C so that's not particularly hard to reach. You could easily cool something to that temp with a good cooler and trip to the grocery store. It's just a pain for mass logistics.

[–]Nojnnil 9 points10 points  (0 children)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7054832/

Just a little bit of research would tell you that's pretty normal cost. In this day and age, I can't fathom why questions like this are still asked... Are you genuinely asking? Or just trying to stir the conspiracy theory pot

[–]thenamelessone7 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Typical new drug development costs anywhere from 10 to 15 billion USD.

[–]ForHelp_PressAltF4 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Something that I've learned thanks to my older brother... There are two ways to deal with peers acting badly. The first way (and most commonly seen) is to point it out, call attention to their substandard performance, bring up to managers instance after instance of their dreadful behavior. They will squirm out of some of those attacks (likely they'll slide through unscathed more often than not). Even if you nail them every time, this way will tarnish you somewhere on the spectrum from being mildly distrusted by management all the way up to being the squeaky wheel that needs to be managed out of the organization.

Or...

You can do your best. Do the right thing. Act the way you want to see everyone else act regardless of if they act that way or not. Show compassion, empathy, and kindness ask without any expectation of acknowledgement nor praise. Just do you.

Doesn't always work. I've had it backfire on me. But when you find the right place for you, it won't backfire. The chasm of difference between you and the deplorable will developed its own voice in the heads of peers, managers, and sometimes even the leaders. Even if you aren't complimented, the focus will turn on then without you being tainted at all.

Like if you have your competitor both developed something that saved lives through preventing infections and also blunting impacts of the infections. Instead of joyously diving into profiteering when federal subsidies dried up, you realize the live you save might be your own treasured family member. You bill insurance when you can but if you can't, you give them the vaccine because that is someone's mom or brother or dad or whatever.. But everyone is someone's baby.

I'm not saying they are angels. FAR from it.

But instead of making it a PR battle, it sounds like they're just going to do the somewhat right thing. Sure, not charging my insurance a stupid amount due a vaccine my taxes helped pay for would be nice. But making sure people don't have to go without is a welcomed step away from the unashamed if not brazen profiteering that seems to be becoming almost standard.

It's a step. Kudos.

Now .. Do insulin.

[–]rxzlmn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Moderna was doing 10 years of research and clinical trials on therapeutic mRNA before COVID. That the mRNA technology was at a state of being quickly transformed into an actual product was sheer luck.

And even then, that Moderna and/or BioNtech would work as they have was not at all foreseeable with certainty. The funding may as well also have been 'lost' entirely. Which is precisely what happens to most pharmaceutical developments, even though they almost always follow a sound rationale. Point in case: CureVac, who had a similar track record leading up to COVID with their different mRNA technology ultimately failed.

Source: Work in the field.

[–]shmaltz_herring 4 points5 points  (0 children)

At the same time they helped also save countless lives and provided a huge positive impact on the economy recovering from covid. I'm good with them making some profit. Not egregious amounts or at the cost of people not being able to afford it, but these efforts should be rewarded.

[–]Ncsu_Wolfpack86 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Should be a little higher. It's reasonable to use this to fund additional research programs.

[–]Pallidum_TreponemaBoosted! ✨💉✅ 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Sure. I don't mind companies having a little bit of profit margin, even on things that are in the public interest.

However, you can also look at it the other way around. The government funded research will also apply to future medication. The methods, machinery, procedures, techniques, they will all be applicable for future profit bearing products as well.

[–]10390Boosted! ✨💉✅ 3367 points3368 points  (337 children)

[–]beeerite 227 points228 points  (1 child)

This is the more accurate headline. The title of this post makes it seem like Moderna is taking a principled stand to ensure access, but they’re just not proceeding with their planned price increase.

[–]god_of_guac 129 points130 points  (8 children)

Damn right ✊🏽

[–]UmDafuq3462 87 points88 points  (32 children)

Refreshing to see somebody in a position of power doing the right thing for once. Of course it’s Bernie, though. Wish he won in 2016.

[–]marr 46 points47 points  (2 children)

You and the whole rest of the world mate. What actually happened has been exhausting even from five thousand miles away.

[–]toobesteak 26 points27 points  (1 child)

I've never emotionally recovered from 2016. To think that my country would be that stupid really took the wind out of my sails. Bernie was the hero we needed, but trump was the one we deserved.

[–]Imadethosehitmanguns 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Goes to show that the powers that be were more afraid of Bernie than Trump. We'll never get a candidate who will truly try to fix things.

[–]greatunknownpub 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Well I wish Al Gore had won in 2000. Oh, wait. He did.

[–]Ultraviolet_Motion 30 points31 points  (2 children)

bernie promised to grill ceo

Eat the rich?

[–]MageMasher_Online 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Back when foreigners were barred from free vaccines in Thailand, I had to pay $50 a Moderna shot

Mind boggling that the the US still is more expensive

[–]ACardAttackBoosted! ✨💉✅ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I wish he was 30 years younger

[–]SteelAlchemistScylla 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I love this man more than any stranger on Earth.

[–]simensin 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Imagine if bernie won in 2016… fuck me we could be normal

[–]jradio 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Also, thank you Moderna.

[–]BigBankHank 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I guess that is where we’re at.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Along with newspapers that once promised free pandemic coverage to all paywalling the fuck out of articles.

[–]marr 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you for helping vs. thank you for not hurting us. Different energy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Yeah. I doubt it had zero to do with this and 100% to do with the DOJ saying the US government would shield Moderna from lawsuits stemming from usage of patents related to the Covid vaccine:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/modernas-vaccine-patent-defense-poses-shield-for-us-deal-makers

Y’all keep hugging each other and shit though thinking the world is fueled by hugs and failed presidential runs though.

[–]Mindless-Frosting 16 points17 points  (1 child)

thinking the world is fueled by hugs and failed presidential runs though

It's good to see someone with such a deep insight into Bernie and his current position commenting on this. Someone that knows Bernie just wants to hug Moderna, and that Bernie is just a failed presidential run, as opposed to, ya know, recently becoming chair of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee and very publicly stating he was going to go after Moderna.

In an interview, Sanders said that Moderna, whose only federally approved drug is the coronavirus vaccine that the company received nearly $2 billion in direct federal money to develop, is a “poster child” for the greed of the pharmaceutical industry. He plans to argue that CEO Stéphane Bancel, who Forbes estimates is worth more than $5 billion, and several other Moderna executives “profited” off the pandemic.

Bancel told the Wall Street Journal last month he was considering quadrupling the price of Moderna’s vaccine to as much as $130 per dose once the federal government drains its stockpile and insurers and individuals are responsible for purchasing them on their own. Since the start of the pandemic, the federal government has purchased vaccines and provided them free, and Moderna sold its booster shots to the government for about $25 per dose.

On Wednesday, after its CEO agreed to appear in front of Sanders’s committee, Moderna announced a new “patient assistance program” to begin this May that will provide millions of uninsured and underinsured Americans the vaccine free of cost. “Everyone in the United States will have access to Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine regardless of their ability to pay,” spokesman Chris Ridley said in a statement.

Moderna, which did not describe how the patient assistance program will work, also noted that patients who are insured will continue to receive the vaccine free through their insurance, regardless of price hikes.

Sanders, who chairs the committee for the first time this year, declined to say who else he wants to call before his committee, but claimed broadly that there is a “morality crisis” within the pharmaceutical industry and support across the political spectrum for putting pharma CEOs in the hot seat and tackling the issue of high prescription drug prices. He also mentioned concerns about how Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz and Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, who owns The Washington Post, are handling unionizing efforts at their companies — and left the door open to questioning them, as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/02/15/bernie-sanders-calls-moderna-ceo-testify-proposed-vaccine-price-hike/

Bernie wants to follow the example of the 90s tobacco hearings, except broader and deeper. And you can be assured that Moderna, even with the US government shielding, would have been happy to charge egregiously for the vaccine. We've seen many corporations that get protected by the government that still go on to fuck over the people.

Could that have influenced the decision? Sure, but you're certitude that it's "100% to do with the DOJ" is ill-founded, and your interpretation that people pointing out Bernie's actions regarding the price hike think the world is "fueled by hugs and failed presidential runs though" only demonstrates how little you understand the people you criticize.

[–]marr 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Imagine if things could have multiple causes!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I think the decision happened too soon after Bernie promised to grill them to actually be due to him tbh.

[–]Saladcitypig 359 points360 points  (27 children)

And this was announced right after Bernie sanders requested to talk with them.

[–]vtjohnhurt 318 points319 points  (20 children)

This is a great, but it is also a PR move to change the narrative. Moderna will negotiate a higher price with Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance companies. The law requires insurance to pay for it.

There are very few people who want a booster, who will need to get free shots compliments of Moderna.

There are perhaps a dozen previously unvaccinated people who will come forward for a free initial vaccination.

[–]fattymcpoopants 60 points61 points  (3 children)

There’s between 18 and 30 million people in this country that are uninsured. Some portion of them will want to keep getting boosters since they seem to be needed at this juncture. That is not a tiny amount of people.

[–]Flying_Birdy 3 points4 points  (1 child)

The argument stands. Any doses offered for free will be through the patient assistance program, which will in turn require the uninsured to seek out Moderna directly. It’s a small barrier for service, but often large enough of a hurdle to filter out likely 99% of uninsured looking for a shot.

Remember when people hated on Shkreli? His company offered the same program after hiking the price on their drug.

Not saying that companies can’t control their pricing, just that realistically this was a PR move that incurs (relatively) small costs.

[–]Professional_Memist 98 points99 points  (2 children)

Remindme! One year

[–]NMDA01 23 points24 points  (0 children)

people left reminders in 2020 and look where we are. As a bonus, heres your reminder from 2020 :p

[–]RemindMeBot 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I will be messaging you in 1 year on 2024-02-16 03:42:54 UTC to remind you of this link

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[–]TomT12 87 points88 points  (25 children)

Now go after Pfizer and make them do the same.

[–]BonIsDead 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Thank fuck for Bernie Sanders

[–]TyrionLannister2012 51 points52 points  (4 children)

Big Dick Bernie

[–]roombaonfire 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Why the ever living fuck would it NOT be?

USA

Ah....

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Cause we payed for it you muppets.

[–]3rdp0st 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Pushing both buttons meme:

1: COVID is a hoax! They just want our money!

2: Anything free can't be trusted! Why are they really giving out """vaccines"""?

  • Some dumbass you probably know.

[–]BrassMaiden 10 points11 points  (6 children)

when we payed for the thing with government spending, and they mint 8 new billionares. it aint free.

[–]Zulishk 12 points13 points  (5 children)

Sorry to take this out on you but why the heck have I seen “paid” misspelled like six times in these comments!

[–]excessive_brutality 2 points3 points  (0 children)

the people who still haven't gotten the vaccine are never going to get the vaccine

[–]Prince-Vegetah 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This vaccine has been payed for and belongs to the people. They have no right to increase the price for profit

[–]ShortRound89 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Nothing in this world is free, they just made so much bank with it already that giving it away won't affect their bottom line.

[–]velvetrevolting 1 point2 points  (0 children)

F yeah!!!

[–]clickbait2135 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you 🙏

[–]pukakattack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Moderna's patient assistance program

Don't worry they'll fuck ya

[–]DowntownContribution 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Misleading headline. It's free for the USA only.

[–]General_Feature1036 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They love their MAID

[–]BushwickSpill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Moderna gang rise up

[–]xSikes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Uh huh, we’ll see. I guess let’s start with decreasing the price to the original price tag.

[–]zorandzam 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wow!

[–]looker009I'm fully vaccinated! 💉💪🩹 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I am having hard time believing they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart. So what are they are getting out of this deal?

[–]Jovial_Jew 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Read the article?…

[–]Big-rod_Rob_Ford 2 points3 points  (1 child)

so release the IP

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The mRNA IP is their whole company, they’ve spent years developing it (before COVID)

[–]KingDasher 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Free is extremely objective term here

[–]Majestic_Bierd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is this some sort of an American Peasant joke I am to European to understand?

[–]UniqueScreenname2 7 points8 points  (15 children)

When something is free, YOU are the product.

[–]saintplus 2 points3 points  (3 children)

It wasn't free, it was paid for by us with taxes.

[–]Xtrm 1 point2 points  (1 child)

People don't understand government funding and where that money comes from.

[–]Appropriate_Phase_28 3 points4 points  (1 child)

they want the 5G chips in every person for the mind-control......./s

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (27 children)

You couldn't pay most people to take it at this point.

[–]Bduggz 3 points4 points  (1 child)

A good 75% of the planet has taken it, Mr brainwashed.

[–]Irish_Wildling 5 points6 points  (23 children)

No. Unfortunately the stupid stay unvaxxed

[–]TooDenseForXray 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is it available in all countries?

[–]suc_me_average 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Now do insulin

[–]Poomandu1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

sry but who gives a fuck about this anymore

[–]Ladychef_1 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

That is incredible news. Wow. Feels so tragically rare in the American healthcare prison.