Examination of Marc Lemire: Part XIII

Between 2008 and 2013, ARC published a series of articles detailing Mar Lemire's racist past and his involvement with the Heritage Front. I compiled all of the links on this single page:

Marc Lemire: Summary of Information

It has been more than six years since I've added to this series of article that highlighted the history of Marc Lemire's involvement with and eventual leadership of the Heritage Front. When I posted the last few articles I sort of felt like I was beating a dead horse so whenever I had heard of Lemire's name come up in my investigations, such as his participation in the memorials of lawyers Doug Christie and more recently Barbara Kulaszka I either briefly discussed his involvement or ignored it all together.

Chris Edmunds, Malcolm Ross, Michele Erstikaitis, Marc Lemire

I had assumed there was no further use in covering Lemire since I believed he was of no particular significance any longer.

That turned out to have been a mistake on my part, but it is a mistake that journalists such as Mack Lamoureux has rectified:

Marc Lemire is the last leader of the Heritage Front which has been described as one of the most impactful white supremacist groups in Canada since the Klan. A former member of the Heritage Front told us how he was a “very obliging foot-soldier” prior to being its leader.

— Mack Lamoureux (@MackLamoureux) May 8, 2019

His existence at the city was a quiet one with odd things like his outgoing message being his extension number not his name. Several days after I first contacted him on his work phone, his extension was taken out of service. The city would not confirm or deny that he worked there

— Mack Lamoureux (@MackLamoureux) May 8, 2019

A source told us that Lemire would have had back access to city employees data, something that worried @MatthewGreenNDP, Hamilton's first POC city councillor.

Green told us he was disgusted he didn’t know about this. pic.twitter.com/zyO03ZBeJG

— Mack Lamoureux (@MackLamoureux) May 8, 2019

For my American followers this would kinda be like uh... if Philadelphia had Don Black (of Stormfront fame) in their IT department. https://t.co/17FOqPMNJQ

— Mack Lamoureux (@MackLamoureux) May 8, 2019

Those articles on Lemire that I thought of as overkill I'm happy to say helped Mr. Lamouroeux in his research so I sort of feel a bit vindicated in having written them, but full credit to Mack for his dogged work.

I know there was another journalist who had been working on this story as well but she appears to have been stymied by the City of Hamilton for some reason which no doubt will result in a great deal of interesting speculation:

I did an FOI recently asking for any email correspondence containing the words "Marc Lemire" combined the words "Heritage Front," "neo-Nazi" & other terms. I'm looking for the response I got right now. Needless to say, it didn't turn up what I was looking for

— Samantha Craggs 🦉 (@SamCraggsCBC) May 8, 2019

Lemire's extension was never available in the city's dial-by-name directory. It always required going directly to a human being, who would connect you

— Samantha Craggs 🦉 (@SamCraggsCBC) May 8, 2019

However, Ms. Craggs was able to get Lemire to speak about his involvement with the Heritage Front after the publication of the "Vice" article.
In news that will surprise no one who follow this blog, Lemire lied:

"The Heritage Front stuff dates back to when I was a teenager," Lemire said, linking to an article where he said he's not a Nazi or white supremacist. 

"I reject the Heritage Front for what it was, as I have stated consistently for over 11 years." 

But, as Vice reported, an archived web page from the Heritage Front's website from 2001 shows Lemire distributing flyers saying "immigration can kill" in Hamilton. A post on Lemire's own webpage from that same year also describes him as the "head honcho" of the organization.

ARC first published this a number of years ago:

Hmmmm, 152 Carlton Street....

When this was published on Lemire's website, he would have been 26 years old.

In fact Lemire hosted the Heritage Front on Freedom-Site from 1998 (age of 23) to roughly 2001 when he appears to have moved it to a separate server. Here is an example of one of those early Heritage Front websites (December 2000, I believe):

And here is the HF merchandise page where the hate group sold their magazine featuring former KKK leader David Duke and videos by the leader of White Aryan Resistance Tom Metzger:

Gee, 152 Carlton Street again?

Surely a coincidence.

And here is a request for donations to keep Freedom-Site alive:

There's that 152 Carlton Street again!

Curious isn't it? I mean, it would be amazing if one could link that address directly to Lemire, wouldn't it?

Oh! You mean he had a personal webpage?

Sigh....

And by the way, here is one of the images of the Canadian Patriot Network Lemire designed:

Subtle Marc. Real subtle.

And what did his other website look like when Marc would have been 23?

Tsk, tsk....

The reality is that Marc already tried to snow people regarding his past with the Heritage Front. In that case, he had a willing stooge in Ezra Levant who refused to challenge Lemire's claims because Levant also had an agenda:

Uh, the Heritage Front uh, was active back in, uh, the the 90s and I was a young kid at the time. I had some, uh, interest in some of the things that they were doing in particularly thing like uh opposition to employment equity, things like reducing immigration. So I uh, listened to some of what they were about, and uh, I went away from it. I mean I was involved with them peripherally in my teenage years.

Well, Lemire is right that he was involved with the Heritage Front as a teenager:

CANADA - FEBRUARY 23 Hearing Adjourned Heritage Front leader Wolfgang Droege and his white supremacist supporters leave University Ave. courthouse yesterday. (Toronto Star)

But he was also involved in his early 20s as he continued to count Wolfgang Droege as a friend:

Criminal Charges Laid Against James Sears and Leroy St. Germaine

ARC hasn't been focusing as much on the efforts by Warren and Lisa Kinsella to keep the hate rag "Your Ward News" off the streets, however there has been an update that I think is definitly worth sharing:

So far, aside from Sears claiming the charges are, "baseless" there isn't all that much from the peanut gallery. Paul Fromm is silent so far. Michelle Erstikaitis is still in prison and as a result not really open to deep discussion on the issue. Gary Schipper is nowhere.

The only half-hearted response is the mere inclusion of a link on Larry's Facebook wall:

On behalf of ARC (so.... me), I offer my congratulations to the Kinsella's for the work they've done thus far. I know it isn't even close to being the end, but this is another solid step in the right direction.

James Sears and Paulie Pimping Out Troubled Teen

Meet Veronica Bouchard.

Our readers have likely already heard of her already. Using the pseudonym "Evalion" (because these types always seem to enjoy engaging in self-aggrandizement), 19 year old Bouchard has made a bit of a name for herself in the neo-Nazi online speaking circuit, at least so far as YouTube and Twitter go. As such hate vloggers are a dime a dozen, her notoriety primarily stems from the fact that she is young, reasonably attractive, and most importantly, female.

In other words, in the sausage party that is the white nationalist movement, she stands out as a novel distraction.

But notoriety amongst white nationalists inevitably results in notoriety amongst decent people.

So this happened:

Ontario teen who called for ‘white’ Canada has laptop seized by CBSA 

By Christina Stevens Senior Reporter Global News

And this:

Formal hate crimes complaints filed with police over GTA teen YouTuber 

By Christina Stevens Senior Reporter Global News

Court Appearance for Michelle Erstikaitis

Michelle Erstikaitis appeared in court today and has been charged with attempted murder. In a previous court appearance, Ms. Erstikaitis had with her an item that might make her friends Paulie and Canadian Creativity Movement leader Wes Smith scratch their heads a bit:

But the designated dangerous offender was clutching a Qur’an as she appeared briefly in an Old City Hall courtroom Tuesday to face charges for allegedly slashing a U.S. Consulate security guard.

Not that we actually believe for a moment she is a Muslim now, just as we questioned her commitment to the cause of "White Nationalism."

Still, isn't it interesting that Paulie, who had inexplicably championed her for years, has remained silent?

Things that make you go, hmmmm.

Michelle Erstikaitis In The News Again

It's been a while since we heard anything about Michelle Erstikaitis. Last we heard she was still in detention from a previous run-in with the judicial system and Paul Fromm was diligently visiting her behind bars (really, though he claims her as a White Nationalist P.O.W. Paulie's relationship with Erstikaitis remains inexplicable to us.... unless.... yuck!).

We'll, it looks like she is out of prison.

Or, perhaps we should say, WAS out of prison:

Former Paul Bernardo fan charged in U.S. Consulate attack

Oh.

Well.

Paulie might have a hard time explaining this away.

Michelle Erstikaitis, 36, who was deemed a dangerous offender five years ago, appeared in a College Park courtroom Tuesday looking dishevelled and ranting about wanting “a refugee lawyer” to handle her case.

She is charged with attempted murder, aggravated assault and carrying a concealed weapon.

“I’m a Canadian citizen and I want to leave this country,” Erstikaitis said in open court.

Okay, so, what did she do exactly?

Toronto Sun sources alleged the woman initially asked for asylum but soon began shouting “ISIS is coming to kill you” and other odd things.
....
Officers arrived and found a guard suffering from multiple stab wounds.

“It’s alleged the woman tried to force her way into the consulate while armed with a three-inch box cutter,” said Sidhu, who added she rushed through the body scanner at the front entrance prompting a guard to react.

As the guard grabbed the woman, she allegedly slashed his throat with the razor-sharp box-cutter narrowly missing a major artery, sources say.

“He managed to avoid serious injury,” Sidhu said, adding the guard’s arm was also sliced before the woman was subdued.

Yeah, that would do it.

The article goes on to detail Erstikaitis' long and sordid history of legal problems, arrests, and her dangerous offender designation which Paulie suggested was COMPLETELY unjustifiable.

Sure.

Paulie might be pleased though (or saddened) to learn that her association with him and White Nationalists was not included in her biography

Last we actually saw Erstikaitis was at the Doug Christie Memorial in Toronto where she was photographed between Malcolm Ross and Marc Lemire....

Your Ward News Being Investigated

When you publish articles on a blog such as this and cover the content that we do, you walk a fine line. You try to expose violent racist and make the public aware of the potential dangers of organized racist groups. You have a little fun pointing out how ridiculous the individuals are who exist in this subculture, and we've been pretty good at ridicule. However, you try not to give them more publicity than they warrant since many of them thrive on the attention.

If truth be told, we've often failed to be as conscientious as we probably should have been and knowing our tendency, we'll likely continue to fall short.

That being noted, we had been following "Your Ward News" out of Toronto ever since Michelle Erstikaitis began her involvement with the publication. Prior to Erstikaitis, "Your Ward News" seems to have been primarily a vehicle for attacking Toronto City Council members as well as being a big supporter of Rob Ford. It was, and still is, distributed freely to homes in the Beaches area of Toronto and claims a circulation of 50,000.

Things started to change somewhat with the arrival of Erstikaitis who continues to write for the publication despite her current involuntary stay in one of Canada's finer federal women's institutions. During the last municipal election, Erstikaitis and "Your Ward News" endorsed the following candidates in both Toronto and Mississauga:

1. Paul Fromm. Not a surprise as she has a weird relationship going back with him a number of years now that even boneheads don't seem to get.
2. Christopher Brosky. Convicted murderer who spent close to two decades in a Texas prison and who was later deported to Canada. Erstikaitis once suggested she and Brosky had dated.
3. James Sears

The last name was one were not familiar with, though it seems that "Dimitri the Lover" was a fringe personality of minor notoriety in Toronto.



Yeah, creepy. And if you believe this guy, he actually had at least one "student" though we can't imagine "Pavel" was any more successful than "Dimitri" would have been.

Since the municipal election, Sears has decided to go full fascist and antisemitic. He's created an unregistered political party (the New Constitution Party) which consists mainly of himself and perhaps a few of other misanthropes.

Immigration Watch Canada Benign Name, Malignant Views

Meet Dan Murray, founder of Immigration Watch Canada:

This past April we posted a story concerning the efforts of Immigration Watch Canada to draw attention to what they claim as a "broken" immigration system. They did so in an especially dishonest way:

As we noted in our previous article, the bottom photo doesn't feature Brampton area Sikhs, nor does it depict Sikhs even living in Canada:

It might be important to note that Immigration Watch Canada couldn't even be bothered to include a picture of the Sikh community in Brampton that they are attacking. The photo, featuring Babu Singh Dukhiya, are of Indian nationals in India. None of them, so far as we can tell, are Canadian citiizens. Actual depictions of Sikh Canadians who have seamlessly integrated into Canadian society, such as the man in the photograph below donating blood at a Canadian Blood Service clinic and the the city councillor attending the opening of a new hospital, sort of doesn't fit with the nightmarish dystopian future they want people to envision as a result of immigration.

The phrase, "mainstream Canadians" is found on the poster and is echoed in the first paragraph of IWC website, though the word "population" replaces "Canadians" in this case:

Immigration Watch Canada is an organization of Canadians who believe that immigration has to serve the interests of its own citizens. It cannot be turned into a social assistance / job-finding program for people from other countries. It should never be a social engineering experiment that is conducted on Canada’s mainstream population in order to make it a minority.

Though they are attempting to present themselves as a group of citizens concerned about the levels of immigration to Canada, they reveal their cards pretty early in that "mainstream Canadian" = white/European Canadian.

This past Monday, IWC held a protest in front of  the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Chris Alexander's constituency office in Ajax, Ontario. The numbers were small and the message rather convoluted:

Neo-Nazi and Convicted Murderer Running For Toronto Council

The Toronto civic election, already a three ring circus, needs some clowns. And for that you can always rely on Don Andrews and his Androids:

Seated around Andrews' table with him at the weekly gathering were five people who had jobs. The rest of those present stood around the table; numbering about 10 people, Andrews called them his "Androids": unemployed persons who lived in Andrews' rooming houses. We were told that Andrews took the cheques they received, subtracted the rent and other expenses, and gave them the rest of their money, making a big production

Last time we heard the name Christopher Brosky was when Michelle Erstikaitis was name dropping him in an effort to bolster her neo-Nazi street cred:

I first came into the movement at fourteen years old, dating my first Skinhead, and then I continued dating skinheads for most of my life. The most recent high profile guy that I went out with is Chris Brosky, a Northern Hammerskin.(Yes, the same Chris from Texas who killed a black man)

However, as Erstikaitis alludes to and which we detail in "The History of Violence," Brosky was well known to us before for another far more serious reason:

• Second trial allowed in skinhead case
• Skinhead gets 40 years in death of black

July 2014 Bits and Bites: FAN MAIL!!!!.... and other stuff

We frequently receive fan mail here at the blog from our adoring bonehead audience. Some of it comes from longtime readers while others are the result of boneheads finding us for the first time. Let's begin with the latter example first.

A few weeks ago we updated, "A History of Violence" adding a number of new entries, most of which were related to the Southern Ontario "Skinheads." However we did include aligned with McKee's Blood & Honour movement but who, prior to his association with McKee, was the leader of another tiny group which may have never been more than the fevered imaginations of the founder:

Calgary, AB -  Neil Kehler sentenced  in armed robbery

Neil Robert Kehler, the ringleader of group of men who robbed a Domino's Pizza and other business at gunpoint, was sentenced to 5 years in prison:

...ringleader Neil Robert Kehler pointed a single barrel shotgun at the clerk.

The group escaped into a nearby van which had its licence plate covered.

Neil Robert Kehler, 2013 photo

Two nights later they robbed a Shawville Rd. S.W. Super 8 and returned to the same motel on Sept. 6, only to leave after finding no one at the front desk.

A security guard watching video in a monitoring room saw the Kehler and the youth on surveillance cameras, but only later realized he wasn't watching footage of the earlier heist.

The pair were arrested following a Pizza Hut robbery on Sept. 9, while their accomplices were later nabbed by police.

Kehler had been the leader of a very small white supremacist group he called the White Knights prior to his arrest and imprisonment, though it doesn't appear to have been much more than an Internet-based group. Kehler has written that he planned to attend the next "White Pride" march organized by the Aryan Guard, however his arrest precluded his involvement. Upon his release, he became more closely associated with Kyle McKee and his Blood & Honour.

Normally we don't hear from the boneheads we include on the list, though there are some notable exception. However, not long after updating the timeline, Mr. Kehler decided to get in touch:

SOS and Fromm Associate Arrested

We first heard the name Chris Edmunds in relation to the April 2013 march held in London by the Southern Ontario "Skinheads" as well as his attendance at a memorial for the late Doug Christie.

Chris Edmunds, Malcolm Ross, Michele Erstikaitis, Marc Lemire

It's been a while, but you had to know a guy walking around with SS on his shirt would cross our radar again:

Man charged with criminally harassing elderly couple

By Standard Staff

Thursday, June 19, 2014 4:50:05 EDT PM

An 18-year-old St. Catharines man has been arrested for allegedly harassing an elderly couple in what police are calling racially motivated conduct.

Niagara Regional Police said an elderly couple who are long-time residents of an east St. Catharines neighbourhood were being threatened and intimidated. Police said the conduct occurred recently over a period of one month.

Christian Edmunds, 18, was arrested on Wednesday and charged with criminal harassment.

Harassing old people. That's the courage we have come to expect from boneheads.

Paul Fromm Goes to Bat For.... Michelle Erstikaitis???: Part VIII - Fromm Doesn't Understand How Prison Works

Back in June 2013, Wes Smith of the Toronto chapter of the Creativity Movement interviewed an individual who was brought to our attention by Paul Fromm who INSISTED that her legal troubles were as a result of her "White Nationalist" political views and not because she was a violent sociopath. We include a few excepts of that interview below:

Yes. We are absolutely terrified of Michelle Erstikaitis' political acumen.

But we do digress:

Not all that surprisingly, there are a lot of boneheads who remain confused as to why Paulie has taken on Erstikaitis' cause and not all of them are as... we'll say as forgiving, as Paulie is:

Wait, he doesn't respect us at all yet uses the information
in our blog to make his case? Cognitive dissonance anyone?

But Paulie has achieved some success in bringing Erstikaitis into the White Nationalist fold. She certainly seems to have been accepted by Paulie supporter Wes Smith and she had been attending a number of White Nationalist events, including a Doug Christie memorial (where she stood alongside Malcolm Ross and Marc Lemire), an event to support Brad Love, and a protest in front of the South African consulate in Toronto organized by professional Geppetto impersonator Sebastian Ronin.

Some of our more astute readers may have noticed, however, that Michelle Erstikaitis has been really quiet lately which, given her seemingly constant need to be the center of attention in some way, might strike one as a bit odd. Well there's a very good reason for that. Not long after her interview with the Toronto Creativity Movement, this request of the public was issued:

Michelle Is Still Trying Too Hard

Michelle Erstikaitis and her "friends" responded to an article in which we questioned her "White Nationalist" bona fides. Our argument is that she basically latches on to anything that will result in her getting some sort of publicity, something that we admit to being complicit to.

But among the more interesting claims Erstikaitis made was that she was buddies with unnamed federal ministers as well as Rob Ford. And we don't mean acquaintances or someone who happened to show up to a photo op. No, she's on a first name basis with the mayor.

A few months ago she posted the following which we presume serves as evidence for her close connection to Mayor Ford:

Well then! A personally signed letter of thanks from the mayor himself. We guess that proves us wrong and Michelle is friends with Rob Ford.

But maybe someone could help us out here because the signature above looks exactly like this signature. And this one. And a lot of other form letters that we were able to find online.

Another Bonehead Protest Goes Bust

Ever hear of the Renaissance Party of North America? No? Not a surprise. It's yet another fringe white supremacist group with intellectual pretensions. The following are excerpts from their mission statement:

We do not call for the overthrow of the American and Canadian governments. We do call for the perception and recognition of the innate and entropic collapse of these states. We encounter an inverted and fractured Manifest Destiny. Globalization is dead; it has encountered the maximum perimeter of energy utilization. The collateral of cheap and abundant energy resources to kick-start the Globalist economy is no longer. We enter an historical era of socio-economic collapse, implosion, fragmentation and devolution. Ethno-racial demographics will be called upon to identify, carve out and, preferably to negotiate, new homelands and polities. If one drop of blood can be spared, the effort at negotiated geographical re-inventions is justified.
....
We call for an abrupt end to Globalist-endorsed mass immigration from non-Occidental countries to North America with the quest for cheap labour, the offsetting of the White European birth rate, and the political displacement of the White European demographic. We are in full and unconditional solidarity with our White European brothers and sisters to halt and reverse the Islamization of the European Continent and Great Britain. We endorse unconditionally on our shores the elimination of the anti-Occidental, state-sanctioned and traitorous ideologies of institutionalized, legally enshrined and enforced Political Correctness, Multiculturalism and Feminism.
....
We acknowledge as true that history is not linear, that it is cyclical.

We own unconditionally the spiritual and moral responsibilities that are bestowed upon a Warrior-Amazon political elite to assertively, yet humbly, agitate and educate with clarity, integrity and common sense. We offer a new perception of social, cultural and economic phenomena. This is a great challenge and an even greater calling. At all times, each RV member should take into consideration: I am responsible.

Yeah. They sound like they would be fun guests at a party.

In any case, the leadership of the Renaissance Party of North America decided yesterday they would make themselves known as a force in Canadian politics by staging a massive protest outside the South African consulate in Toronto while referring to their event as "Occupy South African Embassies." One might wonder why then they did not protest at the actual embassy in Ottawa given the name they chose for it, but who are we to judge? They created a Facebook group to promote the event and invited hundreds of people:

Michelle L. Erstikaitis Really IS a Super, Duper, Nazi! No Fool'n!

Last week we received a message from someone proporting to be Michell Erstikaitis. As the message is chock full of da krazy, we are going to assume that it is indeed her.

Suffice it to say she REALLY wants it to be known that she is a neo-Nazi. Really. She actually wrote that she is a neo-Nazi. A, "hardcore" neo-Nazi to boot.

The following was originally sent to a friend, but as it wasn't published there and because Michelle really wants the attention, she sent it to us as well, though slightly edited.

Brad Love, Michelle Erstikaitis, and Luka Magnotta

This is going to be a little bit rambling and surreal. Please bare with us.

Most of our readers are aware of who Brad Love is. For those who don't know who he is, he's a 55ish year old man who has been, for decades, mailing racist screeds to public officials. Not just one or 10 or 100, but 1000s (one wonders where he finds the time). His harassment of politicians and public officials goes back more than 20 years in fact (we will provide excerpts from an article below detailing this fact):

'Scurrilous' mail nets 20 days in jail 

Toronto Star - Toronto, Ont
Farrell Crook
Feb 16, 1993 

A Mississauga man has been jailed 20 days for mailing "scurrilous" material involving racial and ethnic minorities to two Toronto-area members of Parliament.

...
The Brampton judge said he was not imprisoning Love, 35, for the views he holds, but for using the mails to send two MPs scurrilous material.

An Interesting Development in Our Identification of Boneheads

Yesterday we started publishing the unidentified boneheads, some of whom are found in this picture:

One of the guys we were wondering about was this fella here:

Hey, nice Schutzstaffel you got on your collar buddy. Sort of something that might be able to use to help identify you. Or at the very least pick you out of other pictures.

Luka Magnotta. White Nationalist???

When we first heard that Luka Rocco Magnotta was the prime suspect in the murder and dismemberment of Jun Lin, there were a few things we knew for certain. Such as the fact that he was a gay pornstar who dated Karla Homolka once she was released from prison.

Except, as it turns out, we really don't know all of this to be a fact.

There is not any significant evidence he appeared in pornography, be it straight or gay. No evidence he was a model. No evidence that he date Homolka. Nothing other than what he, himself, has claimed.

And, if we are to be honest, the evidence that he was a, "White Nationalist" isn't exactly clear either.

Boneheads in Trouble: Reitmeier and Erstikaitis

Not much of a story to start out, but we thought our readers would like to see a recent photo of Robert Reitmeier who, along with Tyler Sturrup, is accused of murdering a disabled man (Reitmeier is also dealing with forcible confinement and sexual assault charges as well):

Hey, that's a good look for you Robert!

Anyways.... in unrelated, though still criminal justice related, news....

It's been about 10 months or so since we last wrote about Michelle Erstikaitis, the troubled young woman who Paulie inexplicably went to bat for by claiming she was in trouble because of her, "White Nationalist" views. And we certainly were not the only one's scratching our collective heads on this one, as his fellow travellers also frequently asked, "wtf?!?"

Paulie Doesn't Bother Fact Checking

We haven't made fun of Paulie for at least a few days now, but just when we're starting to get a bit twitchy, Paulie comes through for us in a big way:

We really don't know why he continues to post pictures of himself that makes him appear as a buffoon, but we ain't going to complain about it. This particular photo was posted along with a story, one which he also posted on the White News Now forum, which purports to show that Canadian politicians are stupid. His brief commentary precedes the, "inside information" from a WestJet employee:

Paulie's Status in the WN Movement in Canada Diminishing?

A couple of weeks ago, Paulie decided to promote the cause of some of his newer friends. No, not of boneheads, but some of the folks at Free Dominion:

We have always marvelled at the support Mark and Connie lend lend to Paulie given his unabashed trashing of Israel and, well, stuff like this:

But the purpose today really isn't to beat up on Free Dominion. It's to comment on what appears to be the loss of support from Paulie's more traditional supporters. We've certainly posted stories like this before, but what we find interesting is how specific the charges are becoming from people who have met Paulie.