×

853
854

Did Shaq Play a Major Role in Dwight Not Being Top 75(76) (self.nba)

submitted by AllenOneal37

He was a part of the media for a long time and basically trashed Howard since he got to TNT.

I personally think he had a bit to do with it because of perception. We all saw how Javale was impacted by Shaqtin a fool.

Yes, Dwight did "fall off" a little bit but his accolades were still there.

Opinions.

top 200 commentsshow all 433
sorted by:
best
topnewcontroversialoldq&a

[–]RaptorsAreYouDecent 1373 points1374 points  (86 children)

I think Dwight did enough damage to his own name, in all honesty.

None of which should’ve mattered. He’s clearly a top 75 player.

[–]GrizzliesRedSunGo 289 points290 points  (70 children)

This is it 100%. We as keyboard warriors are constantly being reminded of his awesomeness at the peak of his powers by the stat folks that (at least they try) keep us semi-honest SOME of the time. People like Charles Barkley and LeBron and the media members who interact with them and adore them definitely don’t think highly of Dwight. Which, once again, is Dwight’s own fault. It’s like work, lots of people break lots of rules that could get them fired just about every damn day but aren’t. That annoying guy that the boss hates and his coworkers despise forgets to clock out once? His ass is grass. Dwight is just that coworker.

[–]MagicEllimistopher 170 points171 points  (21 children)

Dwight stopped LeBron in Cleveland then helped him win his ring in LA. Dwight might be immature but his basketball prowess is undeniable.

[–]LakersJHamm12 56 points57 points  (0 children)

If you would’ve told me prior to that season that Dwight and Rondo would be playing important minutes for the Lakers and that I would be happy about it, I would’ve laughed in your face. They both proved me so wrong

load more comments (1 reply)

    [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 30 points31 points  (44 children)

    But why do people hate him so much? A lot of annoying and goofy guys in the NBA, including Shaq, who was also a bully. Is it just winning that matters above everything else? Cause something tells me if Howard won 2 championships as the best player on the team, all those things would not matter as much and the narrative would be very different. Is it cause of his two faced shit with Stan Van Gundy? Or him just being difficult in the locker room and goofy/annoying? Where they jealous of his comic book shoulders? Find out next week on captain planet.

    [–]BASEDME7O2 38 points39 points  (14 children)

    There’s a lot of stories of him annoying team mates by basically having the sense of humor of a 12 year old.

    I also wonder if his sexuality played a part in people not liking him, players would have known way more than fans did about it, which was basically nothing until just recently, and nba players aren’t even very progressive with sexuality now, let alone 10-15 years ago.

    [–]iamtomorrowman 17 points18 points  (11 children)

    I also wonder if his sexuality played a part in people not liking him

    wait what

    [–]MLD802 29 points30 points  (6 children)

    He’s a little freaky

    [–]76ersHorseRenoiro 2 points3 points  (5 children)

    Did that even go anywhere? Tbh it seemed like some shit people automatically believed because it was funny

    [–][MIL] Stephen Jacksongbdman 12 points13 points  (4 children)

    The person who started that rumor also started a bunch of other unfounded rumors with other celebs. They have a reputation for making things up for clicks

    [–]76ersHorseRenoiro 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Knew it lol, tbh the original ?scandal’ of his texting a trans person was also shown to be fake. But sadly thats not what people cared about

    load more comments (3 replies)

      [–]BadPoEPlayer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Kitty sends his regards

      [–]Apprehensive_Pea7911 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      He likes to be the bottom

      [–]FIalt619 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      He may have had penis breath in the locker room.

      load more comments (1 reply)

        [–]TripleH18 16 points17 points  (0 children)

        Additionally, in his Orlando days, he was always talking about his Christian faith and religiousity. Bordering on preachy. But it was well known he was partaking in many off court escapades (with women, but teammates could have sensed he was bi possibly)

        This hypocrisy didn't make him popular with the locker room or media.

        load more comments (1 reply)

          [–]Explodeos 5 points6 points  (5 children)

          A lot of the criticism of Dwight was that he never improved his game. He was effectively the same player, with the same height and skillset since he entered the league. He did indeed get 'better' but he got better based on the natural physical talents he had, not necessarily changing the way the game was played, or making a new play style that no one else could stop. He was also extremely stubborn in how he wanted to play. He basically played alongside one of the best ever point guards you could want to play with in Steve Nash and basically , more or less either didn't have the coordination or flat refused to change the way he played the game to take advantage of this.

          By the time he got to Houston, he then started working with Hakeem but the results were mostly ineffective, and Dwight's game never changed and never incorporated the fluidity or skill that someone like Hakeem had for the low post. Despite this he also insisted on being the man in the low post and wanted the iso but he had by then already lost the quickness or first step he had in his Orlando days, and didn't have the move package like a Hakeem to put the emphasis on top. Again, even when he was with Harden, he still refused to run the pick and roll.

          While i don't agree with every piece of criticism Dwight received and he really was 'that guy' for a long time, he just simply wasn't as good a team mate as many other great Centers before him and wasn't dominant enough on the offensive end (like say, Shaq) to command the respect to play however he wanted to which in the end to some degree, interrupted his career and almost ended it before he was picked up by LA (again)

          [–]RaptorsNamorath82 8 points9 points  (3 children)

          Hate is a bit strong, but people dislike hypocrisy

          For a man who talked about his strong Christian values, he really didn't live up to them in the way he conducted himself

          [–]nklowe1123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think he told the truth too much

          [–]GrizzliesRedSunGo 15 points16 points  (5 children)

          Man I don’t know how to explain it really. Sports culture is a very “cool kid” business, it’s why white dudes like Herro and baker mayfield expend so much energy trying to fit in by aligning their personalities with a sort of cliche’d version of black masculinity. Shaq is goofy but in a way that he could fit in at the car wash on Saturdays in any city. Dwight’s energy is just bursting with “kid who runs like Naruto at school” vibes. It doesn’t matter if he’s doing it ironically or with self awareness or not, it’s just always gonna be seen as corny by jock/sports dudes who just think “he’s weird.”

          [–]Knicksfukkboiinternational 55 points56 points  (2 children)

          reddit moment holy

          [–]SunsKevinDurantLebronnin 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          Eugene McWhiterson letting us know where Herro ranks in the black social hierarchy

          [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think it's because Dwight grew up deeply religious and was the only child lol. I honestly think Shaq got away with his behavior because he was a bully and also had a mean streak. Dwight seems like a guy who really wants to be liked, but has asshole/snake tendencies and didn't win as the main character to alleviate a lot of his flaws.

          load more comments (1 reply)

            load more comments (11 replies)

              load more comments (3 replies)

                [–]Celticsjimfreak13 34 points35 points  (11 children)

                If guys like Malone are on there...

                [–]HornetsC4CitrusFruit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                The lakers had to have a serious intervention with Dwight because he was eating too much candy. I mean.

                load more comments (2 replies)

                  [–]LakersAR15_He_Is_Him 1003 points1004 points  (165 children)

                  Idk but reminder that Lillard shouldn’t have made the team over Dwight

                  [–]AllenOneal37[S] 241 points242 points  (25 children)

                  Dame is my favorite player since Iverson and I have to agree with you. Person against person yes Dwight ahead of Dame.

                  [–]BASEDME7O2 64 points65 points  (24 children)

                  Dame can look way better in the box scores or highlights scoring wise but prime Dwight was so much more impactful at actually winning.

                  [–]CoachFenceter 13 points14 points  (20 children)

                  Does he look "way" better in the box scores though?

                  Dwight was averaging 20.8ppg at his peak without the 3 and on 12.2 attempts per game. He was also a bad FT shooter but was averaging 6.4 made fts per game.

                  In dame's peak years he was averaging 26ppg but on 19.3 attempts per game with the 3 and averaging 6.4 made fts per game.

                  Dwight is also one of the 10 best defenders ever. Dame is a bottom 10 defender of all star players ever.

                  I'm not saying you're trying to make an argument for Dame at all but even the box score discussion doesn't explain how he made the list.

                  [–][POR] Andre Millergrizzlysquare 64 points65 points  (1 child)

                  In dames peak years he avg 26ppg? Dude averaged 32 last year

                  [–]Pacersradiokungfu 27 points28 points  (4 children)

                  'at his peak' for dwight vs career averages for dame. ok bud

                  15ppg vs 25 ppg 60.2% TS vs 58.8% TS. 1.4% TS difference at over 10ppg higher clip.

                  Dwight's definitely better but you are for sure clowning with this take

                  [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 3 points4 points  (10 children)

                  Russell, Wilt, Draymond, AD, KG, Duncan, Wallace, Robinson, Hakeem, take your pick between Giannis/Rodman/Thurmond/Mutumbo for the last spot. Top 20 but not top 10, he committed too much goaltending to be in the top 10.

                  [–]bluemonk3y12 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  Peak Dwight was better defender than Duncan ever was. There's a reason Dwight has 3 DPOY awards and Timmy D has zero. There's a good argument that Timmy D wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Timmy D got to play with 3 DPOY candidate teammates his entire career, that's a big reason his defense gets overrated. Both Robinson and Kawhi led a #1 rated Spurs defenses without Duncan and the closest Duncan got without Robinson, Kawhi, or Bowen was a #8 rated Spurs defense.

                  [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  Eh, I agree that Duncan had a ton of help, but his presence still correlated heavily with defensive impact. Also, the bigger reason Dwight had 3 was because he wasn't competing with historically good defensive players like Wallace and Garnett. He was so big and strong that he provided tremendous value as a rim protector, and was certainly a more sound defender than Dwight, who committed more goaltends in half a season that Duncan did in his career.

                  [–]CoachFenceter 4 points5 points  (4 children)

                  You straight up said Draymond with a straight face. Incredible.

                  [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                  yeah, postseason Draymond is an absurd defender. there's a reason he gets called the best defender of the 2010s

                  [–]CoachFenceter -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                  That's so nice for him...best defender of the 2010s is not exactly the praise you think it is.

                  [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  yes, it was a clear downturn from the 2000s. he was still a monster at his peak (you could argue 2016-2018, or even 2022), able to guard anyone, hyper-intelligent and impactful with his incredible rotations and defensive quarterbacking.

                  dwight was also phenomenal, but like I said, the goaltending was really costly. he obviously had physical tools orders of magnitudes beyond draymond's, but he simply didn't play with a BBIQ that other all-time defenders had. Ben Taylor talks about it in his "best defensive bigs of the last 15 years podcast", he has 08 KG, then AD/Draymond, then Dwight at four. Draymond was gamebreaking in his defensive prime, ask Portland fans about how fun it was to play against playoff Green

                  [–]LakersTw1987 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Dwight with his athleticism was probably the best help defender in the paint during a time you didn’t switch everything. Draymond was better for the 2010s because of bing able to switch and able to play 1on1s defense versus 1-5. Also helped he had klay Thompson, iggy and bogut at different times.

                  Scheme in Orlando was basically let them drive and try to get to the paint and let Dwight do the rest as a help defender. Jameer Nelson RAShard Lewis turkoglu and pietrus were his starters I think and they had one of the top defense for about 5 years or something.

                  load more comments (3 replies)

                    load more comments (2 replies)

                      [–]ClippersChampionshipLast7159 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                      That's not a fact. There were other good players in that team who were impactful.
                      In their NBA finals series vs the Lakers Dwight wasn't the top scorer, Hedo Turkoglu was.
                      Dwight never was the impatcful big man Shaq was when Shaq was winning the finals MVP in three championships, in the team that had Kobe. Dwight is overrated in that aspect. Plus Dwight was disliked in that squad.
                      He was not mature enough.

                      [–]Xsiuol 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                      His impact was mostly on the defensive end. He is a generational defensive superstar. His defense is better than dame's offenive contributions in a team.

                      [–]Bullscute2701 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                      his impact was on the offensive end too. he was a great rim running threat and you had to adjust your defense to stop it, he was also a put back threat which meant he had great gravity - he pulled defenses in. that opened space for turkoglu and lewis and others to shoot from distance. if you go and watch those games now you'll se how lackluster perimeter defense gets cause coaches always sacrificed two guys to cover dwight - orlando finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st in 3pa from 2008. to 2012. not only because they had great shooters but because van gundy's scheme was able to make those shooters opens partly by using howard as a decoy/rebounding threat.

                      they were a weird ass team with two shooting bigs and a center with no post game and they jacked more threes than anyone in the league. warriors and rockets changed the game, but the seed was there in those weird orlando teams. dwight fucked himself when he tried to be more of a post player because of shaq's bullying even though he was rigid as a tree. if he just kep rim-running (and if his back held up) his peak would've extended. but in that period from 2008. to 2011. i'd take only lebron above him.

                      [–]AzorAhai1TK 328 points329 points  (84 children)

                      Lillard over Dwight is still insane to me. Completely baffling in every way

                      [–]WarriorsSharksFanAbroad 101 points102 points  (24 children)

                      The NHL 100 was absolutely insane; Joe Thornton, Evgeni Malkin, and Jarome Iginla all didn’t get selected. As absolutely awful as the NBA’s omissions were, the NHL is somehow levels worse due to their biases.

                      [–]Raptorsthe_figureh3ad 27 points28 points  (12 children)

                      wait what? these three were not top 100????

                      [–]WarriorsSharksFanAbroad 33 points34 points  (3 children)

                      If Thornton stayed in Boston, Evgeni was actually Eugene, and Iginla played for a more eastern Canadian team, they’d all be in. I sure hope and want to believe that Iginla’s heritage didn’t play a part, but you honestly can’t rule it out in hockey…

                      [–]SufficientCalories 15 points16 points  (1 child)

                      The list was so awful that noted European fanboy Don Cherry called out Malkin's omission.

                      Even HFBoards History of Hockey, which is seriously biased against anyone from after the nineties, had him 52nd.

                      [–]WarriorsSharksFanAbroad 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                      Haha you know the sport is fucked up if Don Cherry needs to be the voice of reason. Malkin’s omission also let’s poster-child Crosby seem even better; “did it alone”. It’s really fucking pathetic.

                      [–]Raptorsthe_figureh3ad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      jfc

                      [–]CoachFenceter 5 points6 points  (7 children)

                      Even as a Boston homer I can understand the SMALLEST argument for Thornton being left off....but Malkin and IGINLA weren't on it? Wow.

                      [–]Celticsj2e21 4 points5 points  (4 children)

                      Nah man, Jumbo Joe has played forever and his points totals are in the stratosphere by now. One of the greatest passers in league history.

                      [–]CoachFenceter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      Oh I fucking love Joe and would put him in the roughly 40 to 60 range personally. But I at least get the argument of the talent around him that people would use and how he played in some interesting rules Eras that benefited him until they changed and he got worse (admittedly as he also was aging).

                      It'd be a purely anti-Boston bias (happening unfairly to Boston teams as a whole during the Patriots and Sox dominance of the last 20 years) but I'd get it.

                      [–]Trail Blazers_prof_professorson_ 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                      the only other guys with back to back 90 assist seasons are Gretzky and Mario

                      load more comments (2 replies)

                        [–]joe1240134 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                        Man, that's insane to me. Especially cause didn't Iginla make a spot on one of the earlier celebratory teams?

                        [–]LakersDozens562 6 points7 points  (7 children)

                        As a person who doesn’t know anything about the nhl give some comparative nba players so that I can also be upset with you

                        [–]Wallys_Wild_West 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                        It's hard to compare sports. I've seen people make the comparison of Evgeni Malkin= DWade. Though, even then Malkin has way more individual accolades. Maybe Thornton is like Chris Paul? IDK. They are both generational passers that can also score and never seemed to win when it mattered. But, again, Thornton has an MVP and a scoring title.

                        Can't really give you an Iginla comparison because there aren't really players like him in the NBA(there really aren't players like him in the NHL either). He's got a scoring championship, multiple goal titles, and dragged a mid team to the finals. But what sets him apart was his willingness to the dirty work that a 3rd line grinder would do. He was also robbed of an MVP. It came down to one voter purposely leaving him off the ballot.

                        [–]WarriorsSharksFanAbroad 16 points17 points  (4 children)

                        Oooh my big moment. Ok well Thornton is 12th all-time in points, long career that includes an MVP, no active player (including some inner-circle guys) have more points than him, and he had a long career, mostly with an overlooked franchise. One of the best passers ever. I’m gonna say Dirk without a chip or Nash with one MVP.

                        Iginla is the greatest player ever of a shitty franchise. One of the most underrated commodities in NHL history, his style of play paved the way for guys after him. Maybe a lightly more decorated Reggie Miller.

                        Malkin is the sidekick to the guy that everyone talks about. Less charismatic and less handsome, but just as many chips. Would Batman be who he is without Robin? Scottie Pippen but with an MVP and a playoff MVP (sorta like FMVP).

                        [–]Celticsj2e21 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                        Really nice attempts here. Dirk/Thornton is perfect.

                        I’d posit that Iginla was a guy who had a couple lights-out seasons buffered by lesser ones, kind of like Tracy McGrady? I don’t know that Miller ever has a year when he was arguably “the guy” the way Iginla did.

                        And Pippen/Malkin seems to undersell Malkin, though I get the comparison. I’d almost say Malkin was Dwyane Wade or David Robinson?

                        [–]WarriorsSharksFanAbroad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I considered Wade, but Pippen is the sidekick. Malkin is better than Pippen, but Pippen was a dog too. Also, Crosby ain’t Jordan. I don’t think D-Rob is quite a good enough comp, not enough titles, not enough of a sidekick. I just don’t see someone better than Pip as a comp, even though Malkin is more accomplished. To put in a weird sentence; if Sid is like 80% MJ/20% Pip, then Malkin is 80% Pip/20% MJ. I guess, haha.

                        Also, I considered before falling asleep last night that maybe Karl or Stock or KG could be Thornton. But I said to myself, nah Dirk is perfect. Just the ring is the separator here; who knows how highly regarded Dirk would be without it. But top-100 isn’t even a question.

                        EDIT: whoops, forgot about Iginla. I couldn’t get past that he was the quintessential power forward (NHL version) that every team desired. But was always forgotten because of his shitty team. But you’d feel him when you played them. Had he been on a normal team, he’d have won a cup; alas all you had to do was outplay his teammates and you’d win. One guy was never enough, and that was the situation with Reggie too. And he was also a guy everyone wanted, and his style of play changed the game. Alas, Iginla was maybe a little better than Reggie, at least accolades wise. I don’t think the production thing would warrant an injury asterisk kinda player like McGrady. I’m struggling to think of someone else.

                        [–]BucksGiannisisMVP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Malkin is DWade if he had Lebron playing with him the whole time

                        [–]Celticsj2e21 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Really?? Jesus. Where is that list? I feel like rage reading tonight …

                        load more comments (1 reply)

                          [–]RaptorsSpringtick38 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                          Lillard over Vince is insane to me

                          [–]DragoniteGang 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          No it isn't. Vince had a very short prime. By age 23, he already peaked and then regressed significantly after that. His impact metrics are significantly worse than Lillard and Lillard had more playoffs success than Vince despite having a worse roster objectively.

                          load more comments (2 replies)

                            [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                            Dwight was a back to back to back DPOY winner and he deserved everyone of them too. Dude was like 23 when he led Orlando to the finals messing up the Kobe vs LeBron bonanza the NBA was setting up lol. I think the NBA media never forgave him, Hedo and Rashad Lewis for that. Plus I guess Dwight is just so goofy and annoying. Don't know what else he did behind the scenes to have so many players and media members against him.

                            [–]ArgentinaGAV17 54 points55 points  (21 children)

                            The real problem is keeping old players. There a bunch of them that do not have a top 75 NBA career, and it will get even worse with time.

                            [–]One-Thing-5448 15 points16 points  (20 children)

                            obviously those guys had a major impact, but they don't stack up to current benchwarmers sometimes

                            [–]ArgentinaGAV17 20 points21 points  (9 children)

                            Not even talking about level of play, but just accolades and succes some of those top 75 do not stack up vs someone like Dwight.

                            For example we all love Pistol Pete, but he never won a playoffs series and he had only one season above .500 when he wasn't even the main guy. His NBA career is nowhere near Diwght's for example, same with a bunch of them.

                            [–]srgntalpowell 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                            Not disagreeing with your point, but some of those details are technically incorrect because if his last year with the Celtics

                            In 73 it was definitely a 1A/1B situation and he was top five in the league in PPG (and sixth in assists per game)

                            [–]ArgentinaGAV17 6 points7 points  (3 children)

                            Do people actually count his Boston tenure? He played 20 something games and averaged 11 minutes in the playoffs. Technically T-Mac won playoffs series also.

                            [–]srgntalpowell 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                            It counts because it was part of his career. He played a legitimate role for that team and averaged 11 in the regular season. It was a lot different than T-Mac who scored zero points for the Spurs

                            load more comments (4 replies)

                              [–]Professional-Ant8445 28 points29 points  (9 children)

                              Lenny Wilkens didn't have a major impact. He had 1 all star appearance in the 60s. Not even a top 10 player during that era.

                              It's insane how many people just handwave all the old players on that list by going "yeah but they were legends in their era, they had a huge impact on the game". Have yall looked at that list? Tons of obscure players that don't deserve to be on there.

                              [–]United StatesTheRealPdGaming 36 points37 points  (1 child)

                              I don't remember who it was, maybe bill simmons, but apparently, the old voting was really biased by New York media. That's what there's so much of the old '70s knicks are there even though they probably don't deserve it

                              [–]Professional-Ant8445 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                              Yeah the team with the most top 75 players on it are the 1972 Knicks. I think 5 of their players were on the list. Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Willis Reed, Dave Debusschere, and Jerry Lucas.

                              But even then. All 5 of those guys had better careers than Lenny Wilkins. Couple other weird ones on the list. And even borderline top 50 guys from the last list, like Alex English, Tiny Archibald, etc. have been surpassed by more than 25 players since 1997.

                              [–]chichigetthayay0 25 points26 points  (1 child)

                              Surely you're talking about a different Lenny Wilkens....because the one most people know had 9 All-Star appearances.

                              [–]Trail Blazerstr1vve 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                              Are you mixing up players or something? Lenny was a 9x all star.

                              [–]KingsYouuCantSeeMe 16 points17 points  (0 children)

                              How does this have 30 upvotes lol. He was a 9x all star

                              [–]Tampa Bay RaptorsNJW1812 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                              Lenny Wilkens is a 9 time all star? Wtf are you smoking

                              load more comments (2 replies)

                                [–]Trail BlazersHeyWhatsUpBigGuy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                                They both should have made it in.

                                [–]Warriorsc_lo- 11 points12 points  (17 children)

                                Or AD for that matter

                                [–]gOPHER3727 13 points14 points  (15 children)

                                This was the egregious one to me, it was done based on projection of future results. He definitely had not earned that at that point.

                                [–]MavericksThermicthermos 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                                That precedent was already set with Shaq on the top 50 though.

                                [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                two top 5 MVP seasons, 4x All-NBA First Team, 8x All-Star. I don't know if there are even 50 players that can say that, let alone 75. he absolutely had earned it, high peak, deceptively high longevity

                                [–]Warriorsc_lo- 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                                Agreed. Just wanted to let that Laker bro know he can’t really call out Lillard in good faith without mentioning AD

                                [–]Lakers [LAL] Michael CooperRickySuela 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                                What's the argument for Dame over AD? AD has had more individual success (personal accolades) and team success (2020 championship) over Dame. When they met head to head in the playoffs in 2018, despite having HCA the Blazers were swept by AD's Pellicans. AD has finished higher in MVP voting than Dame has, and has more 1st Team All NBA selections than Dame does. AD has 4 All Defense selections (2x 1st Team) while Dame has zero. So really, what's the argument for Dame over AD?

                                [–]Lakers [LAL] Michael CooperRickySuela 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                Honestly that's not accurate, as AD had already achieved more individual accolades than others who made the list, despite him being only in his mid 20s. Compare him to say, Ray Allen, who was also on that list. Allen was never 1st Team All NBA (2x 2nd Team and 1x 3rd Team), and was 0x All Defense. Allen had two years where he received MVP votes, finishing 11th in 2001 and 9th in 2005. He did win two rings, but wasn't a top 2 player on either of those title teams.

                                Now compare that to AD. AD had been 4x 1st Team All NBA and 4x All Defense (2x 1st Team), and had finished 9th, 6th, 5th and 3rd in MVP voting. He'd also been the 2nd best player on a championship team. Now AD may go on and rack up more accolades before his career is over, but clearly even by that point, he'd done more than Ray Allen did in his entire career.

                                [–]biba8163 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                Ray Allen, who was also on that list. Allen was never 1st Team All NBA (2x 2nd Team and 1x 3rd Team), and was 0x All Defense. Allen had two years where he received MVP votes, finishing 11th in 2001 and 9th in 2005. He did win two rings

                                Reggie Miller

                                • 0 All-NBA 1st teams, 0 All-NBA 2nd teams, 3 All-NBA 3rd team

                                • 2 years receiving MVP votes, finishing 13th and 16th

                                • 0x All-Defense

                                • Completely one dimensional. Never averaged over 4 assists or 4 rebounds a game in his career

                                • Only scores but not even an elite scorer. Never averaged over 25ppg once in his career. One year with 24 ppg but peak years only 20-22 ppg.

                                • 0 Rings

                                load more comments (3 replies)

                                  [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                  two top 5 MVP seasons, 4x All-NBA First Team, 8x All-Star. tired of people ignoring that AD has actually had an incredible career, he would've been a worthy FMVP selection too.

                                  [–]lobotomylunch 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                                  It's Dwight over Anthony Davis for me.

                                  [–]b4amg_ 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                  it never made sense why people latched onto AD but Dame made it over Dwight and no one cared

                                  load more comments (7 replies)

                                    [–]KnicksHokageEzio 342 points343 points  (39 children)

                                    Kobe played a significantly bigger role in Dwight's reputation than Shaq ever could. That Lakers run and the following years destroyed his rep.

                                    [–]ArgentinaGAV17 175 points176 points  (15 children)

                                    Dwight killed his reputation in basically every team he was until his 2nd Lakers stint. Most where annoyed by him even before he was traded to the Lakers because of that famous SVG Pepsi interview

                                    [–]HornetsVegetable-Tooth8463 68 points69 points  (11 children)

                                    Dwight isn't a good locker room presence.

                                    [–]Lakersminkdraggingonfloor 64 points65 points  (10 children)

                                    He’s on camera fondling a rookie’s nuts, while the rookie actively tried to resist. Isn’t good is an understatement

                                    [–]HornetsVegetable-Tooth8463 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                                    Eww

                                    [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 3 points4 points  (7 children)

                                    Is dude bisexual or something lol

                                    [–]shish-bish 71 points72 points  (0 children)

                                    just a lil freaky

                                    [–]Sunsrecenttrips 34 points35 points  (1 child)

                                    Jus a lil freaky sometimes

                                    [–]CelticsSomeDudeUpHere 17 points18 points  (3 children)

                                    Jokes aside, if you look it up, there are certainly some stories out there.

                                    [–]Thundermpbeasto123 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    No chance there is that much smoke without fire.

                                    [–]ClippersChampionshipLast7159 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                    How many kids did he have from how many women?

                                    [–]CelticsSomeDudeUpHere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    Not so much about the women even..

                                    load more comments (1 reply)

                                      [–]hornet04 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                                      Looking at how Harden turned out, we may need to revisit the Houston stint. Dwight was likely not the issue.

                                      [–]ArgentinaGAV17 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                      Dwight had problems in Atlanta, Washington and Charlotte. Post Orlando he demanded the same amount of touches as he used to get, but his back injuries had made him a different player by his 2nd season in Houston (really before being a Laker he was already out of his prime/peak). He was basically out of the league after being bought out by Memphis in 2019, until he finally accepted a minor role with the Lakers as a roleplayer.

                                      load more comments (1 reply)

                                        [–]Nuggetsalchemists_dream 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                        Then the Huston run. And on and on til he found his role on the championship bubble lakers.

                                        [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 19 points20 points  (1 child)

                                        Yea that LA media is so powerful. And Kobe at that point had such a strong cult of personality. Once he called Dwight soft, it was over. Even though Dwight came back early from back and shoulder surgery to help the team lol. Just goes to show you how fucked up and biased media and narratives can be.

                                        [–]Lakerssecretreddname 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                        Media gets hyper focused on the Lakers. It makes or breaks a lot of players.

                                        [–]KnicksIAP-23I 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                                        Kobe? No, Dwight played a significantly bigger role in destroying his own reputation than Shaq or Kobe ever could. He was a known cancer on the Lakers and basically every time afterwards until his second Laker stint.

                                        [–]Buckssharklavapit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                        pinning that to shaq is the weirdest shit

                                        dwight made his own bed

                                        [–]AllenOneal37[S] 8 points9 points  (12 children)

                                        Hmm. I never thought about this.

                                        [–]Lakers [LAL] Michael CooperRickySuela 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                        That Lakers run and the following years destroyed his rep.

                                        I don't see how Kobe is really to blame for that though. That Laker team was worse than people were expecting because Dwight, Kobe and Nash were all badly injured that year. And the rest of Dwight's career was lackluster really because the back surgery he got before joining the Lakers completely sapped him of much of his explosive athleticism, which obviously is not Kobe's fault.

                                        Dwight was an incredible player who had a career-altering injury, which made the second half of his career as forgettable as the first half had been memorable. But I don't see how you can blame Kobe for that.

                                        [–]BASEDME7O2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                        The lakers still begged him to stay though lol. Don’t let anybody forget those stayD12 billboards.

                                        load more comments (3 replies)

                                          [–]MagicMilla4Prez66 101 points102 points  (3 children)

                                          I think it’s more Dwight’s personal issues that made people not like him combined with the fact that he was washed up and irrelevant when this last was made. Dame over him was definitely some recency bias.

                                          [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 13 points14 points  (2 children)

                                          What personal issues? Baby momma drama? The trans thing? Many players in the NBA have a lot of personal issues lol. Some fans have no idea about. Like I used to hear a lot of how great a scorer Bernard King was, like a more efficient Carmelo Anthony. And heard of how injuries ruined his career. But one random day I was doing research on him and found out he also had an alcohol problem and used to sodomize women and harassed, assaulted a couple of them. That was not mainstream at all when his name used to come up.

                                          [–]CozyisCozy 32 points33 points  (1 child)

                                          he damaged his own reputation. all this retrospect is kinda crazy considering we literally watched what happened post Orlando. he won a ring and started getting a lot of love but his name was in the mud for an entire decade because he limited himself and was childish and hated criticism. he never wanted to be better and that’s a fact. he even admits that himself

                                          [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                                          He was already a great player with limited court vision, passing skills, footwork and touch. Some of those things you can't improve, either you have it or you don't. Giannis has an incredible work ethic and is open to criticism but is still a below average shooter with no post game. Working out of the post is an art form.

                                          [–]maybeacademicweapon 42 points43 points  (1 child)

                                          I feel like his image was partially tarnished with the younger generation. He definitely deserved to make it.

                                          [–]Heatwhy-god 16 points17 points  (2 children)

                                          I think Dwight's post injury career has more to do with it, and relative lack of success once leaving Orlando. That list was made, what a couple years ago? Dwight hasn't been dominant since his Orlando days.

                                          [–][ORL] Pat GarrityCubanLinxRae 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                          people forget dwight post orlando had a bad back and played on the lakers with a torn labrum. he’s an ass but he got injured after orlando

                                          [–]Lakers [LAL] Michael CooperRickySuela 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                          This is the real reason. Even if a player doesn't get a career-altering issue, if people get used to seeing someone play a lot as an older, and less effective player, that's what ends up sticking in people's minds for a while. Dwight was incredible for years, but then suffered a career-altering injury, and then people saw many years of him just not being that great, and that seems to have stuck in more people's memories than his great years in Orlando did.

                                          [–]LakersStoneColdAM 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                          Don’t think many in the league like Dwight.

                                          [–]chichigetthayay0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                          This is a ridiculous notion. Dwight left behind a reputation ALL on his own doing. Shouldn't have impacted his top 75 status...but to act like anyone but Dwight is the reason for why he has the rep that he does is insane.

                                          [–]Warriorsej271828 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                          that whole list is a joke. who cares

                                          [–]MagicCaptainBananafishJr 24 points25 points  (40 children)

                                          Don't think Shaq has that much sway in the media. He definitely should have been on there though, over Lillard and AD easily. It was an egregious omission.

                                          [–]RaptorsRodneyPonk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                          ad deserved to make it in, dwight did more, but he should've bumped off dave bing or other guys

                                          load more comments (39 replies)

                                            [–]caandjr 11 points12 points  (1 child)

                                            Dwight himself being a unlikeable person is the reason

                                            [–]Spursachyutthegoat 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                            There’s a pedo in the top 75

                                            [–]joe1240134 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            Shaq's role was tiny, if there was one. Dwight's general reputation wasn't the best when he was leaving Orlando, and being that his level of play dropped so dramatically afterwards people just forgot about his Orlando peak.

                                            [–]balla_mang 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            I love those old Magic teams. Howard, Hedo, JJ, and many other dudes playing a very interesting scheme.

                                            That said, I feel that he definitely hurt his own reputation. The cringe exchanges with Van Gundy, the issues with Kobe, him ruining the good thing he had with Harden, the locker room issues with the Hawks and Hornets. He also had a scuffle with Anthony Davis. His actions made others think that he was self-centered and didn't provide leadership.

                                            Then there's his game. His offensive game kinda plateaued, so that made others think he wasn't working on his game. He relied a lot on his physical gifts to dominate other players, but he lost some of that physicality when he suffered his back and shoulder injuries.

                                            Those injuries no only cut his prime short, but they highlighted how few tools he had on his tool belt. He didn't have soft touch, or great footwork, and his shooting always looked unnatural. You combine that with his poor free throw percentage, and start to get an idea of why he's hard to fit with other teams.

                                            I wish we had seen a Dwight that focused on his fundamentals and took his game seriously. He'll always be a big "What if this dude tried" in my eyes.

                                            PS He should be on the Top 75 List for sure

                                            [–]Murder-Machine101 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            Nah idt it was Shaq, sure Shaq hated the guy and all that but lets not act like Dwight wasn’t a dickhead as well.

                                            I think his time in LA and Hou prolly did the most damage to his reputation. And don’t forget he didn’t leave Orlando on the best terms either

                                            [–]yaboyesdot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            When Shaq called Howard out during halftime when he was with the rockets (years ago), I knew it was over. Someone please find this video for me. This man said if Howard made 2 Fg a quarter. (Layups or dunks) and made 2 free throws a quarter (the irony I know) he would of averaged 24 ppg or something like that. I still remember that clip to this day. Shaq hated Howard ?

                                            [–][POR] Arvydas SabonisHugo_Hackenbush 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                            Dwight's lack of work ethic and unwillingness to develop any actual basketball skills to compensate when his athleticism went away played a much bigger role.

                                            [–]Lakerslakers_nation24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            Don’t really think it’s shaq, just the fact that the last 10 years he hasn’t been a star vs the first 10 years. Recency bias

                                            [–]Knickscapitalistsanta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            I think Dwight Howard's sexual deviencies and controversies in the news played a bigger part than anything else. I also think that people forget or weren't old enough to be following basketball at the time, but he played in the weakest center era in NBA history and that was constantly the question being posed in sports media. The question was always: how good would he have been playing in the 80s and 90s? and it’s a very fair question. On the list of HOF centers he is in the bottom half. And that’s not an insult or anything either. He got so much unfair shit when he was very dominant, but the question of: would have have faired well in the 80s and 90s when a lot of nights he would have had to go up against top 30 centers in nba history, would he have been able to compete? is fair, especially without shooters around him and with poor footwork and a lack of willingness to really play the PnR.

                                            In 2009 He was competing against Duncan, Zach Randolph, Bosh, Boozer, Dirk, Amare, David Lee, Aldridge, Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, shit 2nd in the league in rebounding behind him was a 35 year old Marcus Camby.

                                            Now go to 1989, around the peaks of a lot of big men’s career in the league, you have Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Karl Malone, Parish, Moses Malone, Rodman, Kevin McHale, Terry Cummings, and there are guys in the league averaging 19+8 in the league even my dorky ass has never heard of or were after thoughts, Terry Catledge, Wayman Tisdale, Sam Perkins, Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, AC Green. So then you see Dwight Howard basically alone as the only center in a league where the competition at the position is not impressive and you have to ask yourself how good is he actually and how lucky is he? You have so many people in media who played in the 80s looking at this guy like “this man wouldn’t have lasted 20 minutes in my league he would have gotten chewed out every day in practice and fucked up 60 times a year” and real as fuck don’t blame them lol.

                                            [–][OKC] Steven AdamsRamzaa_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            I think the people making the list are fucking idiots pandering to the current NBA fans.

                                            [–]AllenOneal37[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            I keep forgetting to add a poll to get quick results.

                                            [–]WarriorsLoveLightning 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                                            Neither Dame nor AD should have made it over Dwight.

                                            [–]DeepInMassProduction 3 points4 points  (7 children)

                                            Still can't get over the fact that Manu's not in there

                                            [–]Lakers [LAL] Michael CooperRickySuela 6 points7 points  (6 children)

                                            What possible argument is there for Manu to have made that team? Unlike the HOF, that team didn't give special consideration to international play. Manu was a player who was 2x 3rd Team All NBA, 0x All Defense, was a 6MOTY, and only had one top 10 MVP finish at 8th in 2011. There are many, many players with far better resumes than he had.

                                            [–]piz510 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            Howard did it to himself. His weak will was never more apparent than when I watched him leave Harden hanging and give up against the Warriors in the WCF I went to live. I watched him at sidelines and body language and effort was atrocious. I think people always rated him in ?potential’ and the games when he tried and looked great, but there were way too many where he didn’t and left his teams hanging out to dry.

                                            [–]76ersBigMik_PL 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                                            Man I might be solo on this but I don't think Dwight is a top 75 player either.

                                            He was great in his prime but his prime was extremely short. Basically 4 years is all they got out of Dwight and he came back with a one finals appearance on a pretty loaded team.

                                            He then immediately disappeared from the face of the earth.

                                            I feel like Ben Wallace has a similar resume to him, while winning an actual Championship and he also didn't make the top 75.

                                            75 is a very small number of player and in my opinion Dwight doesn't belong in it. HOF for sure though.

                                            [–]JAhoops 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                                            Does he know dwight is a champion too?

                                            [–]76ersBigMik_PL 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                            Do you not see the difference between those championships lmao. Bro is the same Champions as Brian Scalabrine.

                                            [–]JAhoops 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            Yeah sure

                                            [–]LakersVaccaria_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            Scalabrine didn't even fuckin play are you stupid

                                            [–]PaulEDangerously 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                            Dwight has what? Two or so prime years? That’s not enough for top 75

                                            [–]SupersonicsImAShaaaark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                            Lmao, two years? Dude is a 3x DPOY, 8x all NBA, and was a MVP candidate 5x.

                                            [–]ballgreens 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            Yeah the smaller window hurts. And the game passed him by pretty fast once he lost some athleticism, nothing to fall back on, was mostly just a bruiser who wanted touches in the post. I have a hard saying he ever improved his game, I'm sure he did in ways and I know they tried to teach him offense.

                                            [–]Laughoutloud49 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                            So what did Dwight do that was so bad to damage his own reputation? I’m seeing a lot of these but none of the specifics?

                                            [–]NetsRealLanceStorm 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                            Bouncing from team to team and developing a negative reputation after Orlando hurt him in the general public.

                                            I get that you can say objectively his stats tell the story but a lot of people hold later years against him and underrated his Orlando years

                                            You can say Shaq played a role in that but a lot of people view him in the NBA view him like that either way

                                            [–]AllenOneal37[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                            I think he suffers from recency bias, not being as good as we thought he should be, and a bad reputation. Some of it brought on by shaq saying he wasn't dominant.

                                            [–]clayton191987[🍰] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                                            He wasn’t that great. An excellent rebounder, good blocker, poor fundamentals and shooting, never was a leader, immature. Would have benefits from college. Not top 75. Dame has his flaws, but his offensive game is deadly anywhere. (We will find out this season) if it translates.

                                            [–]LordVarys_Ladybits 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                            One of the best defenders in NBA history. Definitely top 10 and like you stated an excellent rebounder and also a great finisher around the basket. He had great hands. We have seen so many bigs with bad or mid hands, so it's not as easy as it looks. Especially with the game being so fast paced most times.

                                            [–]The_Duke_of_Nebraska 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                            Is there some behind the scenes shit all the players know about him that we don't? I get that he's annoying but he doesn't seem like an awful person?

                                            load more comments (56 replies)