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[–]ThenaCykez 4568 points4569 points  (293 children)

Answer: The minerals talc and asbestos generally form together in the ground. We mine talc for various powders that are meant to be used on human skin. Asbestos, on the other hand, is a potent carcinogen. For at least 30 years, Johnson and Johnson knew that some of their talc supplies were contaminated with asbestos, and yet they lied to government regulators and to the public, claiming they knew their product was pure. Once the lies were revealed, they were hit with massive lawsuits from cancer patients who had used their products, which caused them to request entering bankruptcy.

[–]Booopbooopp 34 points35 points  (4 children)

On their website a few years ago after the law suits started, they had a page dedicated to how their baby powder does not and has never contained asbestos. How were they allowed to do this when it did contain asbestos?

[–]ThenaCykez 45 points46 points  (1 child)

Possibility #1: They were lying and they knew it, and they figured any additional fines and lawsuits for false advertising would be less costly than confessing.

Possibility #2: They were very careful not to technically lie, or at least to make it harder to sue them. I don't know exactly what their website said before, but when I visit their website, they say

  • "We are careful at every stage of our process to ensure that the cosmetic talc used in our products is not contaminated with asbestos" (being careful doesn't mean it didn't happen)
  • "Scientists from all over the world, including those working for the FDA, studied the issue for years and ultimately concluded that Johnson & Johnson’s talc was not contaminated with asbestos." (the cited report says "not detected" or "trace amount, unmeasurably small" for each J&J product, which doesn't actually mean it's not there)
  • "Testing week after week over years with the same result affords a high level of confidence that our product does not contain asbestos." (they probably get "no asbestos" 99.9% of the time. No one says there's a lot of asbestos. But they never specifically say no test ever showed asbestos, just that most don't)
  • "There are no sound scientific studies indicating that inhalation of cosmetic talc causes mesothelioma." (who is deciding which studies are sound?)

And so on.

[–]schlormpf 11 points12 points  (0 children)

following up, “not detected” for asbestos means under 1% asbestos. it has to be higher than 1% asbestos to test positively. however, there are other more thorough tests that can be done as a follow up, so even if something comes up as ND via PLM analysis, a gravimetric point count could still return positive despite testing “negatively” earlier. negatively just means under 1% and PLM is not exactly the most precise analysis.

[–]moose_powered 5 points6 points  (0 children)

From the New Yorker's excellent article on this:

Johnson & Johnson’s baby powder is classified by the F.D.A. as a cosmetic, a type of product over which the agency has extremely limited authority.

But another reason cosmetics are barely regulated is that the industry has successfully fought for more than eighty years to keep Congress from updating the rules that cosmetic companies must abide by. Today, such companies are not legally required to test their products for safety before selling them. They do not have to register with the F.D.A. or provide ingredient statements, and they do not have to produce their safety records for scrutiny or report adverse events, whether rashes or headaches or early puberty or even cancer. If a cosmetic product is life-threatening, the agency cannot recall that product or suspend production; it can only encourage a company to do so.

[–]PerPuroCaso 84 points85 points  (5 children)

TIL: talc is something to be mined. I have no idea what I expected, I never thought about where it comes from, I just thought it is. Didn’t even know it’s a mineral.

[–]playbyk 21 points22 points  (2 children)

I’m not positive, but I remember hearing how talc is mined is pretty sketchy, too. Child labor or slaves maybe? Anyway, there’s a whole movement to avoid using (“not ethically mined”) talc that goes beyond its association with asbestos.

[–]Bbrhuft 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Talc is not mined by children or slaves. The J&J contaminated mines were in the US. Uncontaminated talc is mined in Austria and Italy.

They are large underground mines, mining large quantities of a relatively low value product, compared to gold or silver, they quire technical skill to operate, so using slaves or children is a ridiculous idea. This mine produces 100,000 tons a year:

https://www.imerys.com/austria

[–]PerPuroCaso 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I‘ve been told to avoid talc bc it can cause breast cancer… I haven’t needed it so far anyway.

[–]analogkid01 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Jesus Christ, Marie.

[–]nousernameisleftt 21 points22 points  (0 children)

There's a great Swindled episode about this.

[–]DramaticOstrich11 19 points20 points  (1 child)

I used to get absolutely caked in Imperial Leather brand talc as a kid after a bath💀

[–]alexmikli 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's white asbestos, not blue, so it's very unlikely to get you sick. Still bad of course.

[–]x82nd 49 points50 points  (1 child)

My dad worked for J&J for years so we were always swimming in products. I lost my mom to Ovarian Cancer four years ago now due to this company. Fuck Johnson and Johnson.

[–]SophisticPenguin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I was gonna say it doesn't cause ovarian cancer, because I always associated it with more lung based stuff. But apparently there seems to be some connection for ovarian cancer too. TIL

[–]Carighan 41 points42 points  (4 children)

Geezus fucking hell. And I suspect that as per usual the managers and execs under whom this was proliferated won't be held personally accountable, stripped of all their wealth and thrown into jail, as they should be.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

“It was Steve from marketing!”

execs point fingers at Steve

Steve is now spending 10 years in prison.

[–]Northwest_Radio 9 points10 points  (0 children)

stripped of all their wealth and thrown into jail

If that happened, there would be no campaign funds.

[–]sadberkeleyboi 18 points19 points  (1 child)

These lawsuits have also been going on for almost a decade now, it's just now that a judge who's not afraid to slap the big biomed corporations with the truth got assigned to the case that J&J has finally got the message that they can't just give people cancer with impunity anymore.

[–]wakaOH05 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Let’s not forget how they pushed that one psych medication that irreversibly gave thousands of teenage boys lactating DD breasts that had to be removed with mastectomies. They were ordered to pay $8b and that’s not even enough to cover the problems they caused.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/10/09/uk/johnson-and-johnson-male-breast-growth-damages/index.html

The full story on the worlds greatest podcast https://swindledpodcast.com/podcast/87-the-label/

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I just think companies that knowingly harm people should be fined all of their money. Just make them go broke.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It makes me sick how the wealthy continually avoid consequences.

[–]Picaboo13 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Alot of women developed ovarian cancer from the use of this talc. Women of a certain age were taught to powder their bodies and they did. My mom passed away from ovarian cancer and we were kicked out of a lawsuit because we didn't have a contaminated bottle.

Modern baby (talc) powder is corn starch and those are the bottles we had. I do know talc is still used in men's produce but I do not know of the purity.

[–]thecanadianehssassin 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I know the internet sucks sometimes, but there are the moments when I get super grateful for its existence… My dad uses talc and sometimes buys J&J when his usual brand is not in stock. I just told him about this and we’re definitely going to have to do some research and talk about it…

[–]ANoisyCrow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Any talc may be bad

[–]Bbrhuft 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Asbestos is a crystal shape, not a mineral, several silicate minerals can form asbestiform crystals, actinolite, found in contaminated talc, is just one of these.

However, the existence of actinolite in talc does not necessarily mean there is asbestos present. Tremolite (and the related mineral actinolite) are only asbestos if they form long thin crystals i.e. are asbestiform.

Asbestiform fibres can enter the body and due to their fine fibrous nature means they cannot be expelled. Over many years the irritation they cause can lead to cancer, mesothelioma of the lining of the lungs and ovarian cancer (a process we don't fully understand by the way).

Also, only some mines in the US were contaminated with actinolite and as I pointed out, the existence of actinolite did not necessarily mean that the raw talc contained asbestos. It is though that Asbestiform actinolite might have been generated during the milling process, fine grinding that turned raw talc into fine power, and turned (sometimes) coarse actinolite crystals into asbestos crystals.

J&J claims their testing prevented asbestiform actinolite ending up in cosmetic talc, however, their testing was obviously not rigorous enough.

[–]KoolKat_Chill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A really good friend of mine is part of this lawsuit. Lost her mom to ovarian cancer 7 years ago & she used this baby powder for decades. Ovarian cancer that spread to 5 large masses throughout her body including her heart. I saw this whole process of her getting sick & dying within a year of being diagnosed. One of the most traumatic things I have ever witnessed & it completely devastated this entire family. My friend still has moments where she is in tears because she misses her mom so much & the holidays are still difficult for her

[–]Bronichiwa_ 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Wait so the baby powder = cancer thing was only for this brand? I’ve always used gold bond medicated. So I’m safe?

[–]desquished 12 points13 points  (0 children)

As far as we know, yes. J&J is the only brand that we know of that was misrepresenting their talcum powder as asbestos-free while knowing it contained asbestos.

Talcum powder is also linked to respiratory illnesses, though, and that's consistent across brands.

[–]seaspirit331 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Like the commenter above said, the same geologic conditions that form talc also tend to form asbestos. J&J is specifically named in the lawsuit, but I would not be surprised if trace amounts of asbestos are present in most other talc products, simply due to the nature of asbestos and how hard it is to separate the two of them during mining.

[–]weatherbeknown 5 points6 points  (2 children)

To add to this with my minimal knowledge that is most likely wrong…

They were allowed to lie because the FDA is underfunded and overworked so they don’t actually do independent studies to approve things. They essentially ask the company looking for approval what their own findings were and they approve off of that. So J&J graded their own homework. This def falls on J&J but it also needs to be said that food and drug approval needs a reform.

Edit: forgot to add… in the US, we need to prove why a new drug isn’t unsafe… where as in Europe, they need to prove why a drug IS safe. A subtle but important difference.

Also please someone correct all my facts above that I know aren’t accurate. I just wanted to start the convo

[–]Call_Me_Clark 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hi, I work in the industry (not consumer products though). The approval process doesn’t really work like that, and generally the EU medical review process is less rigorous than the US.

[–]AWizardFromTheFuture 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To add to this, the Verified Podcast did a great series of episodes covering the lawsuits called Dust Up.

[–]iesharael 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s crazy that I was just watching a year old video about this last night

[–]jefferson497 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Is there any evidence that it was only J&J branded talc that had the carcinogens? I’d wager all brands had the same formula

[–]ThenaCykez 5 points6 points  (1 child)

No, and in fact I saw testing reports showing a lot of brands had, at some point in the past, far more asbestos than J&J did. But J&J had a reputation for quality, people trusted the product was safe, and J&J specifically created websites and publicly clashed with the FDA insisting that their product was 100% safe.

[–]sloth_king_617 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There was a quick docuseries on HBO called Not So Pretty where they dug into this. Apparently J&J purposely use weaker microscopes than necessary to find the asbestos in talc so that they’re able to say their talc is free of asbestos. Of course the assumption is that the general consumer doesn’t own a microscope powerful enough to find asbestos.

They also funded a 1971 test where they injected prisoners with asbestos to see the effects. Why would they fund this test if there’s no asbestos in their products?

Lastly, they’re a massive corporation so when consumers sue, they just spin up a new subsidiary that takes on all the legal fees. That subsidiary then files for bankruptcy, the consumers gets little to nothing for the claim, and the larger corporation is protected from further losses.

[–]Bbrhuft 142 points143 points  (4 children)

Answer: Lawyers representing women who claimed talc caused them to develop ovarian cancer, sued Johnson & Johnson several times, originally unsuccessfully.

In the original court cases, the lawyers claimed that talc, the mineral talc itself free of asbestos, was carcinogenic and it caused ovarian cancer among the women they represented. However, they weren't successful, as there was, and still is, relatively little supporting medical evidence that uncontaminated talc is carcinogenic.

The lawyers were undaunted, and tried again after they learnt that some talc mines Johnson & Johnson sourced its talc from were contaminated with Termolite or Actinolite, a pair of related minerals (actinolite is magnesium rich, tremolite is iron rich) that sometimes, under certain geological conditions, can form tiny long thin fibrous crystals. If they form thin fibrous crystals, they are termed Asbestiform i.e. Asbestos, a respirable fibre.

This case signals a change in the litigation surrounding talc product-induced ovarian cancer in Missouri by placing the blame on potential “contaminants” of talc, rather than the talc itself. - Casey & Larkin, 2019.

(Asbestos is a crystal shape, not a mineral, several minerals can form asbestiform crystals, actinolite is just one of these. The long thin crystals can enter the body and cannot be expelled, over many years the irritation they cause can lead to cancer, mesothelioma of the lining of the lungs, and ovarian cancer).

Deciding if actinolite-tremolite is asbestiform requires careful analysis, using specialist tests, including a transmission electron microscope to measure the crystal's dimensions.

According to Johnson & Johnson, their testing ensured talc that contaminated with actinolite did not contain asbestiform fibres.

However, asbestiform actinolite-tremolite is a well established carcinogen, and this factor helped overrule J&J's reassurances that its testing ensured actinolite wasn't asbestiform, so at retrial the Jury decided that talc contaminated with actinolite was the cause of the women's ovarian cancer. The 22 women were awarded $550 million in compensatory damages and $4.14 billion in punitive damages, a $2 billion portion of this award was upheld in 2021.

The decision was controversial at the time, with several experts expressing the opinion that the link was weak. Some also criticised the tactics of the lawyers, arbitrarily switching focus from talc to actinolite.

Critics also claimed the jury's decision was at variance with studies that failed to find any cases of mesothelioma among talc miners, were there was actinolite contamination.

On the other hand, subsequent research vindicated the jury's decision. Analysis of ovaries from women who died or were treated for ovarian cancer, found asbestos fibres in their tissue, a worrying finding.

It appears that the grinding process can generate asbestiform actinolite and that J&J testing was inadequate. Their testing did not ensure talc was fully free of asbestiform actinolite. This would explain why talc mine workers didn't develop mesothelioma, they weren't exposed to milled talc.

Additionally, it is now clear that J&J spent decades hiding a link between contaminated talc and ovarian cancer. Shockingly, J&J commissioned a study into the possible link between asbestiform actinolite and ovarian cancer, in the 1970s, it confirmed earlier findings, but J&J buried the report:

For example, in 1971, Henderson et al. found talc in an ovarian cancer tissue sample and raised concerns about the relation between talc use and ovarian cancer. Johnson & Johnson hired Arthur Langer, a mineralogist at Mount Sinai, to reexamine the tissue. Langer confirmed the presence of talc, and also found asbestos in ovarian cancer tissue. Evidence shows that Johnson & Johnson successfully dissuaded him from publishing these findings.

Reference:

Casey, R. and Larkin, T.P., 2019. Ovarian Cancer and “Tainted Talc”: What Treating Physicians Need to Know. Missouri Medicine, 116(2), p.83.

Tran, T.H., Steffen, J.E., Clancy, K.M., Bird, T. and Egilman, D.S., 2019. Talc, asbestos, and epidemiology: corporate influence and scientific incognizance. Epidemiology (Cambridge, Mass.), 30(6), p.783.t

When I was a PhD student, one of the undergraduate students in my geology department did a 3rd year project on talc, almost all samples tested positive for actinolite. However, I don't recall if they tested it to see if it was asbestiform. That was likely too advanced.

[–]KingdomOfRyanhOtTyToDdY 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Definitely needs to be the top answer

[–]sonofcrack 359 points360 points  (14 children)

Answer: J&J knew their talc contained asbestos as far back as 1957. Since then and still today they have claimed their talc is safe to use (even though they have stopped selling it). Women have gotten ovarian cancer from using said talc so J&J is facing billions in lawsuits. To try to avoid paying out they are trying some obscure method of creating a subsidiary, giving them all the liability and immediately file for bankruptcy.

They aren’t going bankrupt they are just trying to avoid paying for the damages they caused.

[–]Illinois_s_notsilent 101 points102 points  (6 children)

Unfortunately, it's not that obscure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_two-step_bankruptcy

[–]sonofcrack 34 points35 points  (4 children)

It’s only been done by 4 companies all within the last few years so I’d say it’s pretty obscure.

[–]flakeosphere 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Eh. Companies have been doing this type of thing to try to avoid liability from environmental contamination by using LLCs to hold their environmental liability (contaminated property) then declare bankruptcy when the money runs out of the LLC. Been happening ever since CERCLA was passed.

[–]Ashterothi 7 points8 points  (0 children)

But is this a sign of how rarely it is done, or how consolidated corporations have become?

[–]lenzflare 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sounds like a lot to me. Do you think there are a lot of instances where companies are subjected to massive lawsuits that this trick could work on and be worth the effort? Companies are probably trying to do this as much as possible, it's just that the right circumstances don't come up much.

[–]Airbornequalified 1 point2 points  (5 children)

[–]sonofcrack 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Asbestos does though and they form naturally together.

[–]emptyhellebore 203 points204 points  (2 children)

Answer: J&J have multi billions of dollar judgements against them in lawsuits linking their their talc product to cancer. The bankruptcy was their attempt to sidestep paying out those judgements.

[–]TricksterSprials 97 points98 points  (8 children)

Answer: Aw yes something I actually know. Johnson and Johnson’s baby powder was originally just Talc. Everyone used it. From newborns to 100 year olds for baby soft skin. Then a bunch of women started getting cancer. Oops.
Then some lawyers and scientists came out and said “Uhh…. You can’t guarantee that talc is asbestos free. Like ever.”
Of course Johnson and Johnson said something like “Asbestos?? In our talc?? Never!!! We test every batch!!”
They test like… a spoon full for every ton of baby powder so thats not really good.
But uhh… funny story. Johnson and Johnson knew since the 1950s their baby powder had high levels of asbestos. Just didn’t want to tell anyone.
When people started suing they did a little thing called a “Texas two step.” Where in the short, they say “We made a new company to take over all the lawsuits.” And then new company files for chapter 11 bankruptcy.
So that means they can’t sue J&J, but the new company has no assets to give out for their lawsuit. So they’re kinda screwed.
But the court said to j&j “Uhhh. You can’t do that.”
So now Johnson and Johnson needs to appeal and/or find another way to not pay the currently 3.5 billions dollars of lawsuits.
But they did replace talc with corn starch in 2020 for the US and in 2023 for the rest of the world.

[–]moeru_gumi 29 points30 points  (1 child)

In 2020… handy for those of us who had baby powder sprinkled on us in 1985. :/

[–]quinteroreyes 4 points5 points  (0 children)

2019 toddlers are punching the air rn

[–]Ok_Shoe_4325 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I can also add to this that J&J was always concerned about asbestos quantity in the baby powder. They weren't concerned it would give you cancer though, just that asbestos would make the powder unpleasant. While talc is smooth, asbestos is rough and they were afraid it would make their product feel scratchy.

[–]justtrying2dream 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Question. I used this as a male in my boxers from approximately ages 16-24. Is there anything I can do to help prevent any sort of repercussions from this exposure ?

[–]Pardyx 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Not expose yourself to more. Thats it.

[–]FeloniousFerret79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Remove your testicles and your lungs (and maybe some other organs). Short of that no. The good news is that the relationship between talcum powder (even with asbestos) and causing cancer even ovarian cancer is still mixed. Some studies have found no link and others a very slight increase. A meta analysis according to the American Cancer Society found no increase.

[–]290077 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They test like… a spoon full for every ton of baby powder so thats not really good.

If it's well-mixed that's a perfectly representative sample. What do you think is an adequate sample size?

[–]a_kato 98 points99 points  (31 children)

Answer: To add to other comments this is bankruptcy for the talc division of j&j not the entire conglomerate

[–]JustAStupidRedditer 93 points94 points  (12 children)

[–]snuzet 32 points33 points  (6 children)

Literal money quote: “…Johnson & Johnson, valued at more than $400 billion..”

They could easily have just paid all the claims but now they’re streisanding themselves

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (4 children)

It’s funny how you think that “Streisanding” this matters. Most of the products you buy from J&J have no visible association and you wouldn’t guess they’re J&J. It’s like trying to boycott Nestle over the slavery and water rights and everything. We all know about it. I’d like to think no one has knowingly bought a nestle product in the past ten years. I can’t even keep track of the company buy outs and rebrands anymore, someone should make an easy way to do that.

[–]VelocityGrrl39 11 points12 points  (0 children)

r/FuckNestle is helpful.

[–]Bitlovin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’d like to think no one has knowingly bought a nestle product in the past ten years

That would be nice, but only a fraction of the population is even aware of Nestle's bullshit, and only a fraction of that fraction cares enough to change their buying habits.

Which is why boycotts never work. Most people just don't care.

[–]snuzet 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think this just tarnishes the brand. Until I saw this post I wasn’t aware of the lawsuits and knowing now what the company has done past and present hurts their brand reputation

[–]lucidposeidon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I, too, was completely unaware of any of this. Definitely going to be a topic I bring to the table for quite a while.

[–]DistinctTrashPanda 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's more important to them that they can pay out another $10.5 billion in dividends this year.

[–]Testastic 13 points14 points  (7 children)

Question: What products should I use instead of their baby powder? Are any other products bad too?

[–]muffinTrees 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Use a talc free product. Many products use corn starch now. Gold bond makes several. Works pretty well IMO

[–]mredding 8 points9 points  (2 children)

You have to check the labels. Talcum powder is still widely available, like Gold Bond body powder still contains talc. The safe alternatives are made with corn starch.

[–]KatTheGreatest 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I just got Aquation Talc-free baby powder. It has cornstarch, oatmeal, and aloe Vera.

[–]sahliekid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Apparently, at least for babies, it is recommended you do not use any powder-based product for nappy rash.

[–]Kycrio 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Question: is talc still liable to be contaminated with asbestos? I don't use talc but I see anti-chaffing powder advertised as "for women" presumably in reaction to this incident. "women's talc" that's implied to be free of asbestos also implies the existence of "men's talc" which does have asbestos in it.

[–]nickgreatpwrful 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Answer: Feel the need to clarify this because there is SO much misinformation about talc, including in some comments right here. Talc is completely safe to use, don't panic and throw away your talc containing cosmetics. It's only when talc is contaminated with asbestos that it becomes a risk. Reputable companies will make sure they are sourcing only talc that is free of asbestos. I haven't read too deep into the claims about J&J, but when it comes to cosmetics companies, I know recent studies of talc containing cosmetics show a vast majority of them are safe and nearly all products are free of asbestos contamination.

Some sources to FDA tests and staments by the American Cancer Society: 1, 2, 3

[–]Call_Me_Clark 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Answer: It should be noted that the lawsuit itself is controversial, and J&J maintains that it’s products do not contain significant levels of asbestos.

Talc is a mineral, which means that it is extracted from deposits in the earth - and those deposits are not necessarily pure (in fact, it’s uncommon for anything in the earth to be purely anything). Asbestos is found in talc deposits.

There is considerable controversy (and little evidence) that trace asbestos in talc can cause ovarian cancer - although it should be noted that civil lawsuits are not decided on scientific merit alone.

J&J has tried to fight the lawsuits and lost, and has tried to spin off a new company making exclusively talc, and assigned the lawsuits to that new company, and that isn’t working either.

[–]avaacado_toast 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"There is considerable controversy (and little evidence) that trace asbestos in talc can cause ovarian cancer"

The same exact thing was said about asbestos and Lung cancer. The fuckers knew for decades about the link but continued to hide it. I have no doubt the same will bear out here.