My cat on the basketball lineup

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T18:16:59+00:00

Appropriate. That chonky boi is built like an average curry fan.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T18:14:48+00:00

What can I say, I'm a true visionary.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T17:55:37+00:00

Yeah, it's basically what we used to call "barometer"

Jokić can get 50/10/5, 20/15/15 or 30/10/10, but he'll always find a way to be ridiculously good. Murray is nowhere as consistent in that sense, but since he's also the guy that can turn into peak Curry out of nowhere, you wanna take that possibility out of equation at very least.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T16:45:21+00:00

Now we win in 5 in front of the home crowd.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T16:43:38+00:00

His hair and Jamal's pubes are very similar.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-05T15:58:42+00:00

Well put!

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T21:50:21+00:00

Maybe it's the moral loss.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T19:23:10+00:00

Jokić 55/17/9 tonight. You heard it here first.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T11:52:44+00:00

And you said he didn't achieve much in Europe which is absolutely wrong. He even won EL MVP at 40 years old lmao. He was 1 shot away from dragging Žalgiris to Euroleague finals.

Maybe I came off the wrong way, but EL MVP really doesn't beat the achievements of neither Jokić nor Giannis.

Whatever he's done in Europe before and after his NBA stint, he's been doing it while the NBA was arguably in two of its strongest and most iconic eras - the '80s and early '90s, and then the early '00s.

Again, I never got to watch him play live and see his career unfold in real time, but these Sabonis projections in comparison to Jokić, Shaq and other great Cs, is giving me 'LeBron vs Hill' vibe from before Bron got his first ring.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T11:26:29+00:00

I guess that's fair in regards to Petro, but I still think his ceiling could've been higher.

My only problem with Sabonis' projections is that they have a guy that has never averaged more than 3 APG in his entire career, and peaked at 16 PPG on .581 TS% in the NBA, being basically something between Jokić and Tim Duncan, with elite athleticism and the frame of Karl Malone... That kinda sounds better than LeBron James, and benefit of the doubt really can't take you that far imo...

Obviously, there are more down to earth projections, but when people start bringing up his upsides and skill comparisons, it's hard not to think that guy would've been the undisputed GOAT.

That said, for a guy that came to the league at 31, with serious mileage, and a concerning injury history, he put up pretty damn solid raw numbers, and quite amazing advanced stats.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T10:27:27+00:00

I'm not necessarily saying that Petro doesn't get as much praise, just that he doesn't get the same kind of benefit of the doubt when it comes to career projections in those hypotheticals.

It just seems to me like Sabonis is talked about as a guy that wouldn't just be great if he came to the league healthy and at younger age, but legit dominate like Shaq, while also being a more disciplined and motivated player.

As for Bodiroga, I get that he never played in the league, but he's another all-time "What if" seeing how he was the face of the Serbian NT and its defacto leader and best player, despite playing on squads stacked with NBA players. Really solid ones at that. Perhaps the flashiest career tape I've seen.

Delipagić was the Euro Wilt, but as a forward, averaging 30+ PPG regularly and shooting lights out. Can't say I know too much about him, but old heads talk him up as virtually unstoppable. Kinda like having Kareem status among Yugo ballers.

E: But yeah, you know Petro is an all-timer when despite all the 90s bullshit that unfortunately even spilled onto basketball, he is still an absolute legend in Serbia and his Nets jersey was pretty much the #23 of our '90s/'00s. Interestingly enough, my generation didn't really have a Balkan superstar growing up, so we kiiinda adopted T-Mac in that sense for some reason... Guy was huge here among hoopers. Still rock his Rockets jersey every now and then.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T09:16:24+00:00

Sabonis literally averaged his career highs in APG in NBA not in Europe.

The injury argument stands, but even than he hasn't done anywhere close to enough on either side of the pond to prove that he was either a better passer or an overall better player than Yoke.

Yoke was an MVP of what's basically a Balkan regional league, came into the league as 41st pick and feasted as a guy no one had any expectations out of. Sabas was a proven player by the time he arrived to the league, and should've had a much longer leash than Jokić got initially (especially with Jokić literally asking to be benched in his 2nd year so the team could get the most out of Nurk).

Then again, my dad and many older folks I know and talk hoops with, used to talk about Sabonis as this ultimate basketball force that Yugoslav/Serbian teams regarded as Wayne Gretzky of basketball. As legendary as Petrović and later Bodiroga were in these parts, Sabas might be seen as a tier above them when it comes to NT + Euro performance.

So with all that said, I think it's fair to give Sabas the benefit of the doubt, but as much as the older generation loves to prop him up, I'm honestly not sure if it's fair to give him so much of it that he's seen in the same light as the guy who's currently making a case for top 20 all time, and has a solid chance to climb even further.

Always wondered why don't Petrović, Bodiroga or Delipagić get anywhere close to it... My theory is that Sabonis was kinda a symbol of the iron curtain falling down for good, but I honestly dunno. Kinda don't wanna disrespect him, but simultaneously, as someone born in '93 with nothing but stories of his greatness, stats that don't necessarily translate 1:1 to NBA careers, and bunch of HL clips, I find it hard to be convinced that he was in the same tier as guys like Yoke, Dirk or Giannis who are the most proven European players in NBA history.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T08:23:15+00:00

Great point.

Amazing example of this is Gordon, who has become a defensive specialist for us, while simultaneously putting up roughly the same PPG that he did in his Orlando days but on much higher efficiency (he averaged .529 TS% between 2017-18 and 2019-20 season, while he's at .604 TS% as a Nugget).

MPJ has also become a much better defender at this point. He definitely began to realize that he'll get his points in this offense easy enough, so he has more energy to expend on the D.

None of that goes into the boxscore, and none of it can be seen easily in short clips... Especially not the nitpicked ones, like the shit that one guy used to post, and Philly fans worshipped like a gospel.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T07:19:55+00:00

To clarify, I'm not saying that he's only good on defense because of his offense, but that his offensive game combined with his defensive rebounding, which limits 2nd chance opportunities for the opponents, will make it easier for his team to deny a couple likely and less likely baskets respectively to their opponents. Basically, it's a cushion of sorts that lets the Nuggets avoid giving up ez points even if they would be easier to score on in halfcourt.

Then you also add the facts that he's got really quick hands allowing him to average Draymond kind of STLs instead of hovering around 0.5 mark like other Cs, and that he's a fucking giant (so many people been surprised just how huge he is) which will always tire his opponents, and it pretty much cements his floor as at very least an average defender.

I mean if he prevents just one ez bucket opportunity off a turnover, just one 2nd chance opportunity more than an average C by being an amazing defensive rebounder, and gets just half a steal more per game at that, it would probably have similar effect to getting like 2 extra blocks every night...

For a casual fan 2.7 BPG would sounds a lot better (even if it comes off otherwise bad defense) than an abstract idea that a .700 TS% guy that puts up 9.8 APG and is 4th in the league for AST% but still manages to average 2.7 AST/TO rate compared to for example, ahem, Embiid, who averages 4.2 APG but is sitting at 1.23 AST/TO, can make it easier for his team to not get scored onto even if he ain't a stopper in those possessions.

Edit: As for the stats, those would only show us how good he is in halfcourt and have no way to show us how much worse he'd get scored on if he was allowing less of those tougher possessions to defend

If there are stats like those, they're probably limited to analytics teams that track them on a play by play basis, and probably even account for the types of defensive schemes ran in individual plays.

PS: Jamal is also averaging 6.2 APG on 2.8 AST/TOV rate. When your two primary playmakers are combined averaging 16.1 APG on 2.72 AST/TOV rate, you're bound to have a very efficient offense... Add onto it size advantage compared to most opponents out there that helps with rebounding - we're 7th in RPG for the playoffs while playing at the slowest pace out of any team ahead of us (pretty significantly in most cases) in that regard, minus the Knicks, and it all starts to make sense.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-04T00:55:49+00:00

It adds up, you know?

Prevent a fastbreak from happening, and you turned the following possession for the opponent from basically a guaranteed basket, to 24 seconds of having to find a solution for your defense.

You also don't have to foul to stop guaranteed baskets after you turned the ball over, and you don't take the psychological hit of the momentum shift as a team.

In these playoffs we are allowing the least points off the turnovers, second least 2nd chance points, and are 9th when it comes to fastbreak points scored by our opponents while being 2nd in fastbreak points per game (all of the others are per game stats as well, obviously).

As I said, all that shit adds up. Games are often decided by a point, two or five, and if your guy's super efficient offensive play means that your opponent has less chances to punish misplays with ez baskets, it helps your D tremendously without going into the box score, nor being particularly apparent to a casual watcher.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T23:52:11+00:00

The real reason he's so highly valued by the defensive metrics is because he's the most efficient offensive player in the league.

He doesn't turn the ball often, shoots at .700 TS%, grabs offensive boards, tips missed shots in, remains calm when the shot clock is running low, etc... Basically he forces opponents to inbound the ball and run a halfcourt offense, instead of running fastbreak to punish bad possessions.

He doesn't have to be some all time great stopper to help his team defensively. He makes everyone's life easier and gives them more leeway on the D, by having them play easier kind of defense more often.

Look at it like this. A chasedown block against a player on a break is huge, but know what's better? Finishing your previous possession with a basket, and having that guy jog down the court instead and having to face all five of your guys that are already set in their defensive scheme.

THAT is the eyetest.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T18:47:48+00:00

I can see Harden rising to perhaps even Chuck status with analytics becoming more and more respected and prevalent in discussion, but I can't see him overtaking Curry on all time ranking lists.

This generation of teenagers and guys in their early 20s grew up with Curry as the most iconic player in the world, the way my generation (I'll be 30 in a couple months) idolized Kobe... That will go a long way in the ranking discussions in the future.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T16:07:43+00:00

RemindMe! 3 years

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T14:58:47+00:00

I don't think people look at Curry as a consensus top 10 guy yet, but it's really not that crazy to do so... or at very least see it happening.

2x MVP, 4x Champion as a leader of arguably the strongest team in history, impacted the game in such a way that every team wants a guy like him, and every guard coming out of college wants to be like him. He's arguably the most iconic player in that sense since Kobe.

I think Curry will climb up the ranking lists with time simply because he influenced so many young players who look up to him as an idol and will put him ahead of many players they either never saw play, or never found as entertaining or relatable.

But yeah, I agree with the last part of your comment. So much of the career is determined by the circumstances, for people to completely dismiss the impact it has on someone's game. Recent example AD - imagine if he played with Bron from day 1... He could be seen as a top 20 guy with 2 or 3 rings to his name.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T14:37:42+00:00

There's nothing reactionary about it?

You understand that both Jokić and Embiid regularly play guys that are more athletic than them and dominate them? You also understand that those players have had 60 years of accumulated tape, and progress in terms of coaching, analytics, conditioning training and overall skill level on Wilt?

Wilt was incredible, but to think that '61 Wilt could just walk into an NBA game and dominate is ridiculous. He'd get lost on the perimeter, he'd be shocked when he finds out that 5 players can't spend an entire possession in the paint, he would have no clue that a guard can run down full court while doing like 5 dribbles he never saw, and all in one possession, and then hammer it down like only bigs did in his era, he'd bite on every single post fake, he'd assume he hit his head or something when he sees a score go up by three when someone takes a stepback from behind the arc...

We can acknowledge his insane talent without having to pretend like the game hasn't progressed so much over the last 50-60 years.You could argue that there's a bigger difference between today's NBA and NBA of the 60s, than there is between football and rugby.

Having Wilt play today as he was would be like putting a biker from the 40s on a FireBlade or Busa... Sure, he'd have a rough idea on how to ride, but Jesus would have to take the handlebar on the first turn.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T12:28:50+00:00

I mean, the "12 year old" part is probably rustling some people's jimmies here, but you really ain't that wrong...

Duncan might have 4 rings on KG, but he was also a couple Kawhis, Parkers, Manus, Robinsons, Bowens, Diaws and Popovichs ahead of KG for most of their careers, and especially the prime and peak years. Not to mention that Spurs have been an established organization by the time Timmy got there, and became the epitome of stability during his stay, while KG got drafted by the Wolves like 5 years into their existence...

Switch their circumstances around, and there's probably a conversation there, but TD would still be a better player to anyone who actually watched them played and knew how to read through an analytics sheet.

Only the NBA fans evaluate players by their rings... Like I get that it's a more star dominated league than any other in the American pro sports, but the rings are still a terrible argument... I mean, if the NBA fans were ranking NFL or NHL players, they would legit have Rodgers at like #150 and Ovechkin somewhere between #40 and #60.

My pet theory is that NBA fans simply watch the least amount of games out of any other sports fans... There's this 82 game regular season, but most people seem to only tune in for the playoffs, so they neither get to watch the players for a significant amount of time to form a proper opinion on their game, nor to grasp the circumstances they're playing in... That's how Jokić got this etiquette of not being a playoff performer despite always taking like two steps forward in the postseason, simply because casuals couldn't bother to realize that a backcourt of Austin Rivers and Facu Campazzo doesn't exactly bode well for you Championship aspirations.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-03T06:37:34+00:00

I was mostly joking, but since you took it so seriously, let me bite...

Did Wilt shoot stepbacks off the wrong foot? Was he doing behind the back crossovers? Did he have every post move known to man? Could he throw a no look cross-court skip pass? Was he shooting almost 60% when it comes to long twos?

The only thing Wilt has on Jokić, and pretty much any remotely decent modern player, is athleticism. It's been more than sixty fucking years since he averaged 50, and most of yalls parents weren't even born at the time... You know nothing about Wilt aside from reading some 'fun facts' and watching rare tape where he looks very impressive compared to his peers, who look like pedestrians compared to even the college players of today...

There's no doubt that he's one of the legends of the sport, and undeniably one of the greatest players to ever play the game, but to think that todays players wouldn't outperform him even in the 1961 is just some pretentious bullshit... People in the 70s got their minds blown by Pistol Pete and Dr J... Now imagine if you sent someone like Jokić, Giannis, LeBron, Curry, Harden or KD to the 60s. Those 300 folks that were watching NBA back in the day, probably wouldn't be able to convince anyone of what they just saw.

Basically Wilt could probably be amazing in 2020s as long as he broadened his game to match the skillset needed in todays NBA. He might be the greatest athlete of all time, and has displayed a highly diverse game for the standards of his era, so it's safe to assume that he'd be able to replicate a lot of that success if he were to develop in modern setting... but modern superstars would 100% utterly dominate the '60s. Even the perimeter players like Curry and Harden could put up 100+ PPG in stretches despite there being no 3pt line.

This is late '60s... Just look at the spacing and the elementary school level passing... Unless terribly undersized, any modern player would probably average 15+ steals in that league, and destroy everyone and their mother in that 16ft to 3pt range. It doesn't matter that Wilt could pick up a coin from the top of the backboard, when superstars of today have like hundreds of skills and feats that would mindfuck the people back in the day just as much or even harder.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-02T21:24:34+00:00

One day the media will jump on the bandwagon, and yall will get tired of articles like "Ranking Nuggets players by the assumed vascularity of their cocks" sometime into our 4th championship run in 2029-30 season.

Common_Crane · 2023-06-02T21:21:08+00:00

If two white players are best buddies on an NBA team, are they called tighty whities?

Common_Crane · 2023-06-02T21:15:28+00:00

I mean, Kanye could drop a hundred on some special needs kids... I'm pretty sure Jokić could score a 100 against the first team All-Plumbers.

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