In an interview with Paul Joseph Watson for the conspiracy theorist website InfoWars from May 19, 2016, Vice Media co-founder Gavin McInnes explained how to “defeat SJWs” once and for all.

After expressing outrage at Salon.com’s choice to give a platform to Todd Nickerson, an admitted pedophile who refuses to act on his compulsions, McInnes declared that “everything depraved and wrong and sick” in the world is considered “good” while “everything that is good, we should be ashamed of.”

“White males, we built society,” McInnes exclaimed, “we separated church and state! We didn’t end slavery…I mean, sorry, we didn’t begin slavery, we ended it!”

“How about a thank you?” he demanded.

Watson brought up a recent interview between McInnes and Jesse Hughes, the conspiracy-loving Eagles of Death Metal frontman. Hughes asserted that the Bataclan security guards were in on the November 2015 attacks on Paris, and swore that he witnessed Muslims celebrating in the streets that night. Hughes made similar claims earlier this year and subsequently apologized.

As Watson put it, “The Left only succeeds when it does get people to recant, when it forces people to apologize. Because as soon as you refuse to apologize, they completely lose their power. So is this how we win?”

“Exactly,” McInnes replied. “The grievance industry is fueled by capitulation. Apologies is their gasoline, and the less you capitulate the less power they have.” To prove his point he referenced the backlash surrounding an anti-LGBT opinion piece he wrote for Thought Catalog in which he declared transphobia to be “perfectly natural.”

“I refused to apologize, right? And what I did was — it’s the same as locking these rats in a room. When they have no food, they end up cannibalizing each other. So I was sort of running up the mountain away from these nuts, these mentally ill homosexuals, and I noticed that when I stopped reacting to them — and, by the way, reacting, I was just insulting, I never apologized — they started cannibalizing each other.”