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[–]tdrules 572 points573 points  (33 children)

Reddit is gamed all the time, but it's good to see the mods are trying to combat it.

This site is not some online poll that should be skewed to make sure an opinion is upheld or something is given exposure, it is a news aggregator/community and should be treated as such.

[–]GAMEOVER 161 points162 points  (2 children)

I think we're lucky to have a moderator who cares enough to keep this sub from going to shit the way most of the rest of reddit has gone. Unfortunately Deimorz is the exception and not the rule. Far too many mods are either completely laissez faire or actively turn their subreddits into an echo chamber of sensationalized headlines. This is one of the few places with more than 10,000 subscribers that still has content worth sticking around for.

[–]Zuggy 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I think one of the main reasons may be the amount of work that goes into being a mod for a large subreddit and they don't want to have a weed out new mods from a massive userbase. I can't even imagine the amount of work that goes into moderating one of the default subreddits.

Having said that I think the primary duty should be keeping a close watch for vote-manipulators. It's one thing to have a post that breaks the content rules for the subreddit, especially if the poster thinks the post fits, but the mods disagree. It's a completely other problem when someone tries to manipulate a community for their own ends.

[–]spladug[A] 334 points335 points  (27 children)

There are two kinds of vote cheating: asking for upvotes and generating synthetic upvotes. Both are 100% against the rules of reddit and we take violations of these rules very seriously.

We have a suite of countermeasures to help protect against vote cheating and actively monitor how the system is doing. However, protecting against people asking for upvotes is definitely aided by things like /u/Deimorz's post and resulting community vigilance, as we admins cannot be on every twitter feed or facebook group.

If you do see active and successful vote cheating, please report it to the moderators of the subreddit and to the /r/reddit.com modmail so we can investigate.

[–]Pharnaces_II 44 points45 points  (13 children)

Since you're here I might as well ask: is it acceptable for community leaders (moderators, for instance) to request upvotes for meta posts? They're self-posts, so karma whoring isn't an issue, and they're not advertising anything.

Your anti-voting manipulation measures against bots are pretty effective, whatever they are. I made a subreddit once to test it out and after 2 or 3 accounts upvoted the same thread from the same IP address it was getting an equal number of upvotes and downvotes, maintaining around 1-3 points, depending on which account I was viewing it from. I applaud the site devs efforts to fight against it.

[–]Delta_6 34 points35 points  (4 children)

A meta post doesn't promote anything external and is meant to bring attention to subreddit issues.

That said it is technically against the rules. The mods have the power to slap an announcement message linking to the meta post all over the page with CSS. However it is much less obnoxious for users to upvote it for visibility. While technically violating the rules it is not in violation of "the spirit of the rules" and thusly will not be enforced.

[–]r4v5 24 points25 points  (3 children)

The mods have the power to slap an announcement message linking to the meta post all over the page with CSS.

And yet, that CSS doesn't display on my frontpage and thus is easily missed unless I view that subreddit specifically.

[–]Wormythunder 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Or if a user disables the subreddit style. This is something I do often as the custom CSS and Reddit Enhancement Suite tend not to mix well.

[–]ramp_tram 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I use Reddit Enhancement Suite and have all CSS disabled.

[–]spladug 60 points61 points  (4 children)

is it acceptable for community leaders (moderators, for instance) to request upvotes for meta posts?

It's kinda tacky and borderline bad, but I understand the necessity until there's a better way to get announcements to subscribers.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Perhaps there should be an optional header that can be enabled by mods without the use of CSS manipulation (like the yellow box at the top of this subreddit). Mods could only enable it when there's an important announcement thread and link to the thread in the text.

[–]spladug 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Check out the discussion of this and other mod feature requests in /r/modnews: http://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13iyku/call_for_moderator_feature_requests/

[–]shoffing 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Or mods could have the ability to "sticky" a thread for a certain amount of time, like on most forums.

[–]Skitrel 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As a mod I'd actually prefer to have a popup that mods can use, or something akin to a splash page. Upon viewing the subreddit and not having received the announcement before they're given it center screen and given the option to close popup or move on. Akin to RES's daily tips popup.

Users can obviously permanently disable it if they please, that's fine, they're the crowd that aren't actively participating in how the subreddit is being run and don't care about the announcements. We can run announcement discussions with the users that do care while not disturbing the front page with green text stuff. In fact we could run far more discussion than usual with something like this, rather than having a daily greentext post frontpaging, something most mods try to avoid as users don't want to see mod announcements ALL the time. For those that do, well it's just a better way to do it.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Couldn't those be linked in an announcement section either at the top (like "/r/Games is for informative and interesting gaming content and discussions. Looking for memes/screenshots/etc.? Try /r/gaming!" is at the top of this one) or on the sidebar?

[–]Pharnaces_II 14 points15 points  (0 children)

People with subreddit styles disabled and on mobile apps don't see CSS overlays.

[–]Schelome 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I imagine that falls under the purview of the mods themselves, it is really only done with important information and to highlight changes so in the grand scheme of things is a very minor concern

[–]na85 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What are you guys doing about downvote brigades like SRS and BestOf?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

We have a suite of countermeasures to help protect against vote cheating and actively monitor how the system is doing.

I'm glad to see that. Sometimes it feels like you guys aren't doing anything about these issues, but as a developer myself I know you guys are probably just overwhelmed by the sheer weight of what you're trying to accomplish. Please keep up the good work!

[–]spladug 22 points23 points  (1 child)

It's more like we don't publicly advertize the fight as all it would do is help the cheaters figure our systems out better.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

That makes sense. Reminds me of Elon Musk saying patents would only give away SpaceX's secrets to China. It's unfortunate that it has the side effect of giving users the impression you aren't doing anything.

[–]asstits 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He would have gotten away with it if he just asked people for his support by linking to his post on Reddit without blatantly asking for upvotes, and downvotes on the naysayers.

[–]dsi1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just to be clear: unsuccessful vote cheating (getting called out in your comments, post just not making it to the top, etc) shouldn't be reported?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i strongly suggest that you keep an eye on any posts linking to that kickstarter page as reading the kicks comments, you can see they are trying to spread posts to other subreddits. i messaged /r/scifi a warning about it but i don't have enough free time to police it.

[–]42754275 45 points46 points  (4 children)

Great post and a very important issue. Getting a rather negative vibe out of this particular kickstarter campaign, its relying far to much on nostalgia and has barely given away any actual details or content for people to consider whether its really worthy of investment. To then encourage false publicity, and even suppress critique is rather shameful.
Best of luck to the moderators in keeping this sort of behaviour out of the subreddit.

[–]Ultrace-7 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Yeah, this revelation pretty much destroyed the interest I had in the Elite Kickstarter, which was admittedly already shaky due to the lack of details. I don't know who that user was, but they've inflicted some serious damage IMO.

[–]corhen 8 points9 points  (0 children)

this, considering when i first went to the page it didnt have any photos at all... let alone video, gameplay info, or anything, it pushed the game into a pass

Star Citizen, on the other hand, came of as really polished and well thought out.

[–]PowderblueKes 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I have no love for this KS either, but it's important to note that it's been the "fans" of the KS causing this and not the people running the project.

It doesn't paint them in a good light though.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then again, is it really the fans or could it just as well be some of the developers taking that roll?

Who knows :/

[–][deleted] 175 points176 points  (32 children)

Developers and Fans alike: want to know a great way to make me and others quickly never look at your game again? Promote it far too much, and get a legion of fans to do the same. Looking at you as well Hero-U. There were a large number of spam accounts set up by fans to help promote that game, and I had gotten so sick of hearing about it that I simply ignored or downvoted anything related. I still have no idea what that game is about, but the amount of shove-down-your-throat I saw coming from fans of that game made me simply not care anymore.

[–]Sybertron 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Compare that with developers that really work with their fanbase. The dev for Hungry Slimes (link to a terrible addiction) is very active on /r/android and continues to get great feedback to build his game and continuously make improvments.

Use the community well, and you'll make a great game. Treat us like marketing lemmings, and we'll cast you out.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Treat us like marketing lemmings, and we'll cast you out.

...yeah, I don't think you've ever gone to /r/gaming.

There are entire communities on reddit that are functionally advertisements for a product. Reddit is exceedingly easy to manipulate, and it's known that it's done by a huge number of advertising companies.

These are examples that illustrate why you want a GOOD advertising company (Or even one period). It's not remotely indicative of reddit being good at detecting manipulation.

[–]gamelord12 59 points60 points  (18 children)

I'm getting that way about Maia and the Chris Roberts space game.

[–]Endyo 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The decent thing was that, even though Star Citizen was being spammed all over my email, it was interesting stuff about star systems. It just happened that they were being unlocked at light speed because everyone decided to back it on the last two days. Needless to say, I'm ok with it being quiet until some really exciting things show up.

[–]facepoppies 19 points20 points  (1 child)

I know what you mean. I am really excited for Maia, Star Citizen and Planetary Annihilation. But holy fuck, I don't need people on reddit marketing it to me every second of every day for a whole month.

It makes me REALLY mad when people announce that a game has reached its goal, but they're only telling you because they want you to give MORE money to reach stretch goals. I want to punch people at that point. I could just imagine giving somebody a Christmas present, and having them say "Thanks! I am really happy! Now, let's work on making me even more happy by giving me more stuff!"

I know that's not a 1:1 analogy, but that's what it makes me feel like.

[–]Simoroth 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Totally. Even I have even been started to get irritated by the amount of stuff getting submitted about Maia and it's my own game. :p

There was an article about us right at the top of Games and people were still submitting other articles that were just gutter press doing bad copy paste "news".

Its problematic, because the Kickstarter process makes people very emotionally involved and they do things that can actually really damage your campaign. Notable examples being people suggesting a twitter spam campaign against Notch and Fargo. (despite them both alreadying taking the time to publically praise and support the game)

I'm also sad to say I misunderstood the rules about linking to threads and had done that via twitter. It seems I wasn't the only one. So I feel a little less stupid now. I have apologized none the less.

[–]jmarquiso 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Except the content posted here about Hero-U, Maia and the Chris roberts game has largely been other sites. RPS articles, TotalBiscuit previews, and the like. This just means they're getting really good at going to press outlets to push their Kickstarter along, though. Elite: Dangerous has not done a good job of this.

[–]inthemorning33 2 points3 points  (0 children)

well Chris Roberts has a big fan base, I sincerely doubt he needs to use dirty tactics to promote his project.

[–]Volcris 18 points19 points  (9 children)

Honestly, I'm not, both are at least interesting and new. RPGs are being pumped out of kick starter assembly line style (ironic, considering very little has actually been pumped out of kick starter). Both of those games have interesting, novel ideas combined with tried and true concepts we love, which is why there is all the hype. I'm also VERY partial to Sir, you are being hunted.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (3 children)

So it's ok as long as it's a game you like?

[–]sdurant12 17 points18 points  (0 children)

It wasn't spam. (As far as I know) everything posted about Maia and Star Citizen was done by the community. There was no rule breaking (again, to my knowledge) because all of the upvotes were doled out by the community. So it is okay.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

RPGs indie platformers are being pumped out of kick starter assembly line style

FTFY, there is a ridiculous amount of indie platformers out there. Sure many of them have cool art and/or music but good grief enough is enough.

[–]jmarquiso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(ironic, considering very little has actually been pumped out of kick starter)

outgrow.me is a site devoted to following Kickstarters that actually produce a product. There's a lot more than you would have thought.

[–]gamelord12 -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

The thing is, I don't care about Maia at all, and the only interest I'll have in that Chris Roberts game is in the single player campaign; I don't play games for free-form, non-objective-based stuff. The more I see articles about these games on the front page, the less interested I get.

[–]MenethProgrammer/Union Rep @ Paradox 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Sounds to me like you'd never be interested in either of them anyway, no?

[–]Volcris 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Understandable, however, I for one love them. I have sunk way to many hours in mine craft building settlements with my girl friend, and I used to be avid dwarf fortress player. I appreciate that it's not your cup of tea, but that does not mean allot of us shouldn't enjoy the brew :). I'm sure you play games I wouldn't enjoy as well, and that is ok.

[–]freelancer799 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What I don't understand is that the Maia game was really struggling up until that last couple of days, how did it get such a boom in pledges? I mean I was one of the early 42 that got it for 5 pounds, up until a couple days ago I didn't think it was going to make it.

[–]Deimorz[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

TotalBiscuit's video about it did it: http://youtu.be/XOOVQYvu5dY

You can see the spike it caused here: http://canhekick.it/projects/1438429768/maia

[–]bluemeep 7 points8 points  (4 children)

I feel bad about inadvertently contributing that the spam on that one. I honestly wasn't aware of how out of hand everyone apparently thought the Hero-U posts were getting. Having now looked back through the posts, I can definitely see how ridiculous it got, though.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I never actually noticed you, so sorry the gun got pointed in your direction there. There were 3 accounts in particular that had NOTHING but months of Quest For Glory backlog posts and comments (all containing links to the kickstarter) that actually got banned. Several of them had like 3-6 articles that they posted in each r/games, r/gaming, r/indiegames, r/rpg_games and like 3 other gaming subreddits I don't even know the names to. It was bad.

[–]bluemeep 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Yeah, a few of them really got overzealous with it. I even had a few send me PMs asking me to upvote their posts, since I had spoken favorably of the project when it was first announced.

It's terrible that it's generated so much ill-will towards the Coles and their new game, but that level of blatant advertisement really does have a negative backlash. The QFG series was a major part of my childhood, so it's a real kick in the gut for me to see everybody so down on them now.

[–]blindsight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry people were spamming Reddit about it.

I think the Coles were doing everything they could to promote their game traditionally, though. They did a lot of interviews where they talked about their game. If fans linked to every single interview as they came out, that would have been something like 20-30 links over the course of the Kickstarter campaign.

It's a shame they got bad press from spammers. They're very talented game designers, and I can't wait for Hero-U. Too bad they didn't have a higher budget to hit more stretch goals and make the game better, partially due to spam.

[–]granida 2 points3 points  (0 children)

you shouldn't feel bad at all. but it's a matter of contributing other things to the internet/reddit community that helps, which other fans clearly didn't and still don't care.

[–]Falcker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Promote it far too much, and get a legion of fans to do the same.

This is how i feel about Planetside 2, the day it launched there were 3 posts on /r/games frontpage just literally announcing the launch and about 5 or so cropped up on /r/gaming as well.

Game might be ok but damn have i heard enough about it already.

[–]AtomicDog1471 1 point2 points  (0 children)

want to know a great way to make me and others quickly never look at your game again? Promote it far too much, and get a legion of fans to do the same

I dunno, this tactic worked ok for Minecraft

[–]docjesus 27 points28 points  (19 children)

Ooft. That is absolutely shameless. I was already distrustful of the Elite Kickstarter (£1.25m with no video/screens?), now it's even more suspicious. I think what irks me most is the brazenly cynical attitude they have towards the community/system. Whether you hate it or merely tolerate it, promotion is a big part of Reddit due to its sheer size, but there's something about publicly commanding people to aggressively market your product and confront anyone who expresses doubt that really depresses me.

Glad we don't have to deal with anything of that scale over in /r/truegaming. Seriously, good job.

[–]MenethProgrammer/Union Rep @ Paradox 22 points23 points  (13 children)

Do note that it wasn't the Elite team doing the vote-begging, it was a fan.

[–]docjesus 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Ah, my mistake. That absolves them somewhat, I suppose, though the two acts individually still leave a bad taste.

Congratulations on helping to get Maia funded, by the way. Sadly, I can't afford to pledge, but I was rooting for you guys. I look forward to buying the game on release!

[–]BovingdonBug 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you visit the KS comments section, you can see it's fans who have good intentions, but are pretty much spamming every online outlet they can think of:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments

[–]jmarquiso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't understand this from the initial post. It should be made more clear. Still an issue, though.

[–]Alinosburns 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Pretty easy to be a Elite Team member creating another separate account,

[–]jmarquiso 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Innocent until proven guilty.

[–]Jacina 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Pretty easy to state something completely unproven.

[–]Alinosburns 4 points5 points  (1 child)

The point is that it could be a fan or it might not be the internets anonymity let's you get away with these things.

I was trying to highlight that it could be either and that the fact that it isn't obviously related to the dev team doesn't mean it isn't.

[–]Jacina 5 points6 points  (0 children)

True true, but the way you stated it, is the way rumors are started, which then ends in the hanging of innocents (till proven guilty)

[–]Bobzer 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I was already distrustful of the Elite Kickstarter (£1.25m with no video/screens?)

Don't they have a video of ingame multiplayer combat out already?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

IIRC that wasn't there originally.

Aside from that, it's completely unimpressive. At least Star Citizen had a fair amount of actual work done.

[–]stimpakk 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I thought the same thing too, I also saw that their "digital copy" tier and their total is higher than what most kickstarters tend to be. All in all, I'll stay away from this project because it seems just a bit too much on the shady side.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The dude is legit, he really did make an awesome game called elite. You can play a free clone of it called oolite.

[–]stimpakk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just because he's been legit at one time doesn't necessarily mean that he'll remain legit forever you know?

[–]Tanagashi 26 points27 points  (21 children)

It's a pity that you have to deal with this stuff, but unfortunately, with the way Reddit works, this is going to happen, and quite often. Thanks for pointing this out, I usually don't pay much attention to Kickstarter posts.

[–][deleted]  (20 children)

[removed]

    [–]Deimorz[S,M] 85 points86 points  (18 children)

    That's definitely a bad example as well, the difference is that I didn't know about that one. That's exactly the sort of thing that I'd really like to get a message about.

    [–]Bajeezus 32 points33 points  (12 children)

    Can we just ban all Kickstarter posts? It seems like 95% of them are either self advertising or someone posting every time a major Kickstarter page is updated. If I wanted to fund something, I would just check Kickstarter (though I doubt I would ever fund anything on principle). If I was interested in a project, I would check the page every once and awhile. I don't need reddit to tell me when a new $5000 tier has been added to a project I don't give a rats ass about.

    [–]Nabkov 35 points36 points  (0 children)

    I get the feeling that, at least for now, crowdfunded games and the process thereof will be part of the gaming (or at least the PC gaming) ecosystem for a little while. To cut that content off of /r/games seems just as absurd as not linking to youtube videos which give information about games (TotalBiscuit's work, for instance), because they also by and large meet your criteria.

    [–]LostInSmoke 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    I disagree with that idea. I like Kickstarter, and have funded a few things there, but I almost never check it.

    I would rather see updates here, for things that are worth posting about, anyway.

    FTL, Shadowrun, good examples.

    [–]greyfoxv1 18 points19 points  (6 children)

    I think restricting the Kickstarter updates is a good idea but banning all Kickstarter posts is a terrible idea. Kickstarter from developers like Obvidian, Uber, RSI and others are big news so we can not ignore that.

    [–]lurker6412 19 points20 points  (0 children)

    I agree. Banning KS posts would be a bad idea because Reddit is where I discover new and interesting projects.

    [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

    what about that feminist idiot who took all the white knights' money and ran away?

    [–]Alinosburns 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    They've already been restricted to two posts max(Initial and final days to give it a final push if your close)

    [–]jmarquiso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I disagree. The recent RPS article about the Prison Architect Alpha was really interesting, and that's a crowdfunded game (though not Kickstarter). I do think we already have limits on Kickstarter posts themselves (twice in the Kickstarter's life, I think - one at the beginning announcing it, and the other at the end for a final push). The rest have been links to community content, from website articles (usually RPS or PA Report) to Alpha playthroughs (usually TotalBiscuit), and those are genuinely interested helping to get more information out for the project.

    [–]AtomicDog1471 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    I'll second this, and throw in Greenlights, too. Linking to kickstarters/greenlights on Reddit is nothing more than trying to game the system. If you want to draw attention to a new game a developer has announced then link to their webpage/blog/devdiary/whatever... not kickstarter/greenlight.

    [–]TheAwesomeinator 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    I agree with Bajeezus-

    Banning Kickstarter posts entirely would add a lot to the subreddit.

    If /r/kickstarter is a thing, then we should definitely have people go there instead.

    [–]jmarquiso 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    /r/Kickstarter is a thing, but it's for general Kickstarter content. Not necessarily games. /r/games, being a gaming sub, is better to get more specialized interest out there - same with /r/IndieGaming and /r/gamedev.

    [–]LG03 85 points86 points  (19 children)

    Name and shame the offenders and offending posts.

    edit In hindsight that could be construed as witch hunting, I just meant a communal tsk tsk more than tracking people down or anything.

    [–]Deimorz[S,M] 219 points220 points  (11 children)

    The worst offender by far was already shown in the post, the others were much less severe or done more innocently. I don't really want to stir up a bunch of mob animosity against certain targets just because their users/supporters were behaving stupidly.

    [–][deleted] 110 points111 points  (7 children)

    You have been, hands down, the best mod I've ever encountered in any subreddit. Thanks for creating such a great community.

    [–]nothis 40 points41 points  (3 children)

    I'll second this. /r/games always struck me as the best moderated subreddit I've come across.

    [–]Robert_Arctor 19 points20 points  (2 children)

    AskScience is great too

    [–]nothis 39 points40 points  (0 children)

    Yea, it's right up there. I just think /r/AskScience rather relies on one simple rule strictly enforced. Which works for such a focused subreddit. But /r/games has a nice "common sense trumps all" thing going, it's IMO a much harder to moderate subreddit because there is no exact definition of what makes a post worthwhile. For example, I believe it's a rule of thumb to keep posts that might technically violate a rule if the comment section actually produced interesting discussion, anyway, which IMO is a very good compromise and shows that rules are enforced with an eye on the results rather than blindly followed.

    [–]Apex-Nebula -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

    [deleted]

    [–]jmarquiso 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    It's hands down /u/Deimorz and /u/DocJesus for me. I'll try to follow their example when any of my subs get big enough (not likely to happen)

    [–]blindsight 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I was going to say /u/docjesus as well. He's a stand-up guy. I did a few Steam trades with him back when it was gifting only, and he's done a great job with /r/truegaming

    [–]Jataka 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The guy who leaks shit from r/mods50k being a close second.

    [–]geeca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Yeah I understand, like if the twitter said: Come check out our post on reddit! Once or twice I'd really have no problem. But this is overt, oppressive, and third o word. Keep up the good work.

    [–]AtomicDog1471 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    The worst offender wasn't named, are you suggesting it was David Braben?

    [–]jmarquiso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Not a fan of shaming. Reporting is a good idea, and encouraging that reporting is a good idea. Sometimes people are just new to reddit and don't understand how it works. A comment to that effect is usually a good idea.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Deimorz[S,M] 53 points54 points  (2 children)

      Is the elite kickstarter banned now?

      It's not banned, but any submissions related to it are definitely going to be scrutinized now. I wouldn't want to completely ban a particular project/site unless it was the people actually behind it knowingly abusing the system. It wouldn't be fair to prevent them from getting any further exposure or discussion here just because some of their supporters are idiots.

      Also does posting reddit links on twitter and asking your followers to "show someone the error of their ways" or some other round about way of saying downvote this into oblivion count as astroturfing?

      It's kind of something you have to look at case-by-case, but it often can be, yes. Someone specifically asking for people sympathetic to them to come invade another community to support them or attack opponents is not something we like to see. Again, the intent is usually pretty clear from what they said when sharing the link.

      [–]Deofuta 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      I appreciate you going the extra step to take time and scrutinize posts rather than outright banning them. It shows that you are willing to put effort where others would simply carpet ban potential offenders. And, well, I appreciate that, thanks! :D

      [–]silsae 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      Your continued objectivity when it would be easy to fly off the handle at certain groups is admirable.

      [–]Kovukono 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      My guess is that asking someone to do that is voter suppression--so yeah.

      [–]TempusFrangit 39 points40 points  (16 children)

      I've wondered why kickstarter posts are even allowed. I recall a while back on another subreddit there was this guy advertising a book he wrote telling people to buy it from amazon, which was criticized all over the place. Technically, the same is done when a kickstarter post is made. You are asked to pay for a product, but you won't even get anything (yet).

      On the other hand, I like some kickstarter posts. It keeps me updated on what kind of (niche) games to expect in the future based on their popularity, and what I should keep an eye out for.

      Rather than having several stand-alone kickstarter posts, why not make a (bi-)weekly collective kickstarter post? It'll list all the kickstarters that either the devs or other posters have requested (that haven't ended yet), in order of when they were started. It will give existing kickstarters that run for a month about 2 to 4 posts, and it will give all the redditors a shot at comparing kickstarters and choosing the one(s) they think is/are more attractive.

      This reduces the amount of kickstarter posts that pop up on the frontpage, still advertises the kickstarters properly, and prevents kickstarter devs from vote-manipulation as they'll also be upvoting their possible competition.

      [–]Deimorz[S,M] 48 points49 points  (5 children)

      There's been a lot of discussion about crowd-funding posts here and whether to ban them, move them all into some sort of compilation post like you suggest, etc.

      What it mostly comes down to is that Kickstarter's been the source of a lot of interesting and exciting developments in gaming recently, and there's nothing inherently "wrong" about Kickstarter compared to any other source of information for upcoming games. Why is it good to post a press release about EA's next game, but bad to post a Kickstarter for an indie dev's next one? Why would some blog re-wording the same information available on the Kickstarter page somehow make it a more acceptable submission?

      We already have stricter rules for crowd-funding posts than any other type of submission, and they're definitely not immune to being removed if the submitter excessively promotes the project (a lot are removed for this). We may need to tighten up the rules even more about what constitutes a "major update", but overall it isn't as bad as a lot of people think it is. Barely over 1% of our submissions are from Kickstarter, and most of them tend to be downvoted.

      [–]Pharnaces_II 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      I don't think that they should be banned or the compiled into a single post. There are Kickstarters are vastly different qualities, some made by some of the biggest names in the industry (Brian Fargo, space game guy, Tim Schafer) and them some by random DeVry grads with no idea how to make a game. The community, for the most part, doesn't want to hear about the latter because they are bad, but they do want to hear about the former and banning Kickstarters altogether will kill a lot of hype for games made by professionals and it's just not fair when, as you said, it's okay to publish a press release of X publisher's latest title.

      I think that the best solution right is to stay the course and let the community decide the content with the voting system. I see probably one or two new Kickstarters receive any significant coverage here a month (Sui Generis and the space sim which I cannot remember the name of for the life of me, for this month) so it seems like the community is doing a fine job at weeding out the bad games while promoting the good ones.

      Another solution is to add a new moderator or two who would prune new threads specifically, but that's a lot of work and power to be put in a few people, especially if they don't have such a good reputation on Reddit like you and Dacvak.

      [–]Shagomir 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I remove all crowd-funding posts or solicitations from businesses from the small subreddit I moderate, especially if I can determine that the OP is the one who stands to gain financially from the posting (I can usually tell when they spam it across every marginally related subreddit). There is a moral hazard involved with promoting your projects personally on Reddit that causes just about anyone who does it to try gaming the system in some way that breaks the rules.

      We're focused on OC created by our community members (including authors intending to publish books and people creating games they intend to sell), so we tend to allow a lot of blogspam and self-promotion that would not be acceptable anywhere else on Reddit. I draw the line when people start begging for cash. It's simply not worth the problems it causes. The nice thing is that for now we have relatively few postings so I can personally review them all, but we're close to 10k members and things could start getting interesting soon.

      [–]TempusFrangit 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      You make a good point there, although I think what is inherently wrong about kickstarter posts is that they're not just information about new games, but also blatant requests for donations. The latter obviously causes a conflict of interest, where the poster (especially if it's one of the developers) intends the post to gain more backers, rather than provide information. This may then results in vote-manipulation. The same goes for people who already back the product, not wanting to see their donation go to waste (or perhaps as a sunk-cost effect). You're much less likely criticize a project you have personally backed, because it would diminish the reason of your investment.

      Unlike with a press release by EA (or game reviews), with kickstarter you're not getting informed about a finished product. Instead, you get to see a commercial about why you should donate. Press releases tend to just throw out information about new games, but no requests for purchases or donations (although the former is implied).

      That said, these issues likely don't manifest often in this subreddit. With just 1% of the submissions being from kickstarter, I don't think it's enough of an issue to make a compilation or take any kind of measures against kickstarter.

      I'm in dubio. Kickstarter manages to mask well that it's nothing more than a means of asking for easy funding, but in doing so it has created a good platform for the advancement of modern gaming.

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      Trailers and other articles and announcements about 'regular' games are also blatantly asking for you to give them money too. Not too mention Steam sales!

      [–]LostInSmoke 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Please don't listen to these idiots. Reddit is the only reason I found Kickstarter's like The Oculus Rift, FTL, Shadowrun, and Wasteland 2.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      I think a collective post would take a bit of effort that somebody would have to put in. I'm not saying it is impossible but generally it would require people to step up and fill a void on a volunteer basis and even just aggregating information that exists takes a bit of time. Its kind of a tough situation. I may or may not have taken notice and funded Star Citizen and Project Eternity without it being mentioned here but I definitely enjoyed people's analysis and thoughts on why or why not they might be worthwhile. The first post I saw about Elite's KS had plenty of people calling it out for not being substantive for example. On one hand, I think banning them completely might be the best way to avoid being manipulated but on the other, I enjoy a community based analysis.

      [–]Deimorz[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Agreed, that's one of the factors why I don't personally like the "weekly compilation"-type idea. It's nice to have the voting/discussion separated out for particular projects, and even particular updates for those projects. Aggregating things impacts a lot of the strengths of reddit's voting/discussion systems.

      [–]LostInSmoke 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Because there is lots of good games on and coming from Kickstarter right now.

      Blocking posts from there would just be retarded.

      Reddit is the only reason I found Kickstarter's like The Oculus Rift, FTL, Shadowrun, and Wasteland 2.

      [–]cuddles_the_destroye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yeah, i like the sound of this weekly roundup.

      [–]TastyWhale 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      What about self-promotion? I write reviews as a hobby and sometimes post them in correlated r/. I even make sure the first comment is "Hey I wrote this self-promotion" or something along those lines so that anyone reading knows it is that. I have read the rules of "no spamming" and try to contribute elsewhere as much as possible, be it upvotes or replies. I've even asked the moderators a time or two about if X was appropriate. Asking because I don't want to get ban-hammered.

      [–]Deimorz[S,M] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      Some self-promotion is generally acceptable as long as you also maintain a reasonable balance of participating in reddit non-promotionally as well. The general guideline in a lot of subreddits is that less than 10% of your overall activity should be related to self-promotion.

      [–]TastyWhale 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Thank you for the response. I suppose I should clarify that the content I write gives me $0. Honestly I'm several hundred dollars into this hobby of website blogging stuff. More if you count the things I buy to review....

      [–]jmarquiso 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      You should mention that the poster is not actually a member of the Elite: Dangerous team, but an overzealous fan.

      [–]Deimorz[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Sure, added a note about it.

      [–]jmarquiso 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Wow. It's too bad since I really like Elite, and am looking forward to Elite: Dangerous. This was horrendously bad form.

      That said, it's good that the mods are on top of this sort of thing when reported, thanks.

      Come to think of it, I think I heard about reddit the first time through an astroturf campaign, but I became quite an active user.

      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Thanks for taking the time to do this, though you're going to get a lot of hate from the spammers.

      [–]MachiniOs 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      This is the kind of shit that bought Digg to it's knees.

      [–]thesonofdarwin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Paid/advertisement submissions, in my mind, was the baseball bat to the back of Digg's head. Every front page submission instantly became a sponsored submission and it became a news aggregation site that no longer relied on its users, but rather its sponsors.

      When a user-driven sites no longer relies on its base, it's game over.

      [–]stimpakk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The horrid UI and high S/N ratio also had important parts to play in that.

      [–]The_MAZZTer 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      I agree with most of your points, but if someone links to a reddit page instead of the ultimate destination, in and of itself I personally think that's fine. Sometimes you want a place where you can discuss web content after looking at it, and maybe you want to encourage users to leave it on reddit so you only have one spot to check for comments.

      If you're commenting in a related thread on reddit of course I assume a link to the reddit page for the trailer or whatever in question is more appropriate than a direct link since readers are more likely to be interested in the reddit page for it anyway. But even if not I think it still could be easily linked without any foul intentions.

      That said, telling viewers what to do once they get there is definitely stepping far over the line.

      "reddit should be happy that we're bringing in extra traffic!"

      Also I find it ironic to note that the type of traffic you describe after this quote is completely worthless to reddit since it immediately leaves and doesn't come back. As you said, reddit is about the community opinion. By removing these threads literally nothing of value is lost in that regard.

      tl;dr Deimorz's thread is great, register a new account and upvote!!!11one

      Please don't ban me.

      [–]Erikster 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Kick some ass mods. I suggest putting a banner on the top of the sub to remind newcomers that we don't want people gaming the vote system.

      [–]pmac135 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Keep up the great work man! We all really do appreciate it

      [–]MetalPanda 10 points11 points  (18 children)

      This is what I have been pointing out that most blogs here have an army that upvotes their submissions within seconds and gets it to the front page.

      I'm willing to bet money that RPS definitely has an army because almost all their major articles are on frontpage within minutes of the article going up.

      We need to stop this and especially have a kickstarter thread once per month where we highlight all major kickstarters and thats it.

      [–]Deimorz[S,M] 45 points46 points  (5 children)

      I'm willing to bet money that RPS definitely has an army because almost all their major articles are on frontpage within minutes of the article going up.

      I've never noticed anything particularly suspicious about RPS articles, I think that's just legitimately a site that a lot of people really like. There are also plenty of RPS submissions that don't go very far, they certainly don't all do well.

      It's important to recognize the distinction between legitimate enthusiasm about something and spamming/vote-cheating. Just because there are a lot of posts from a particular site or on a particular topic doesn't necessarily mean that there's something fishy going on. Some things are just plain popular and will rise very quickly on their own (Valve, Steam sales, negative things about EA, etc.).

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Agree with on the RPS ones, and I'm actually pretty glad they get the viability they do. I had never heard of them prior to joining this sub, but from what I've seen they put out fairly consistent content. I tend to upvote those I read and enjoy (the later quite often follows the former in my case), but have never been encouraged to do so.

      Also wanted to say how I appreciate how you fellows moderate this sub. You're blunt when people overstep, but also seem to think out each action or statement thoroughly. Even if I disagree, you at least take the time to explain your position in a non-condescending way. Keep it up.

      [–]gibby256 20 points21 points  (0 children)

      RPS is a highly respected gaming news reporter. It shouldn't come as much surprise that their content gets posted to Reddit and opvoted very quickly.

      That being said, it is a possibility that they have an upvote brigade for their content. I frequent the site on a daily basis and I can't say that I've ever seen anyone on the site specifically encouraging voting behavior on Reddit.

      [–]jmarquiso 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      RPS caters to PC gaming. A lot of redditors - due to the nature of reddit - are PC gamers. It stands to reason that they have a lot of fans on here.

      [–]name_was_taken 6 points7 points  (2 children)

      I was thinking just moments ago that if I start posting RPS articles (which I often see before they're posted here) I could snag some sweet karma.

      I'm sure others have had the same thought, and acted on it.

      I'm too lazy to bother.

      [–]cyclicamp 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      What you say suggests a positive feedback loop that I don't doubt happens. People see it on the frontpage, so more people think of submitting their new articles, in turn getting more articles to the frontpage, in turn getting more people involved, etc.

      [–]jmarquiso 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      This is an issue with Reddit as a whole, however.

      [–]granida 4 points5 points  (2 children)

      RPS is pretty popular in certain geographic regions. i think this subreddit is skewed towards eurogamer and European news due to the geography of its redditors (I learned way too much about the UK here...)

      [–]Jataka 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      Europe is more PC-focused and r/Games remains, for the most part, PC-focused.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      I'm an American, but I was recently introduced to RPS and it has quickly become my favorite source of gaming-related content. Their writing style is just attractive to me. It's introspective but approachable. Funny enough, I tend to disagree with a decent amount of their opinions, but the style makes the read worthwhile either way. Just my 2 cents as an American RPS fan

      [–]Jataka -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

      Ya, Polygon is definitely doing this. You should read some of the infomercial-quality comments people make regarding the idiotic site design instead of the article whenever anything from them gets submitted.

      [–]SlightlyInsane 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      ...Some people like the design of the website. That isn't evidence of astroturfing.

      [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

      I can't stand reading their website with the atrocious layouts they keep using. Good grief its hard to read, no matter how good the articles are.

      [–]Jataka -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      Thank you.

      [–]Kashima 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      I always wondered:

      how does reddit prevent one guy using hundred puppet-accounts to upvote his own post?

      [–]YeahBruvInit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I think the site, certainly, can tell if you're using the same IP to logout, login, upvote, etc. right? I've had friends use the same machine and it causes the upvote count to vary wildly when you refresh.

      [–]jacwah 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I am pretty sure they don't. Except having rikes against it.

      [–]Xiphiasar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I might be wrong but it sounds like the logarithmic ranking system is part of the problem in that it makes the system easier to game.

      [–]jacwah 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      It's also a way for good post to reach the frontpage quicker and to reach higher.

      [–]notJebBush 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Is there a reason why Mods would need to explain why voter manipulation is bad?

      Kudos to the mods for dealing with Astroturf.

      [–]AlwaysGeeky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      This is a great post and highlights a very important part of being in a reddit community. It's a shame some people as pointed out in the initial post try to game the system and use reddit as nothing more than a traffic generator for other nefarious purposes.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      I'm surprised we don't see more people calling out this sort of behavior. You see it all the time both in the gaming subreddits and the normal subreddits. Whenever I see a commercial on the front page or whenever people are jerking over a product I always start to question how many of these users are legit and how many are just marketing folk.

      Marketers know that Reddit is free publicity so they're gonna try and game the site as much as they possibly can. If someone's comments look particularly fishy to you, check their user profile and see how long they've been around. Keep a close eye on this shit, we can't stop it but we can at least try and shoot it down whenever we see it.

      Oh and don't forget to donate to my Kickstarter here at http://www.lolpancakesthevideogame/kickstart/donatenow/givemeallyourmoney

      [–]greg_2018u47 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      This is a masterpiece of moderating! Well done!

      [–]alpas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      i surfed through the most of the comments and didn't see anyone asked most apparent (to me at least) question: why don't you [reddit admins] just disable voting for new users temprorarily? even if its just for an hour or two, that would solve most of the issue, is it not?

      [–]liminal18 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Wow, this is awesome!

      [–]ardenrae1028 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I've wondered for some time why there isn't a timeline on peoples accounts that prevents them for voting for s certain subreddit. It helps solve some of the problem of people just creating random accounts to upvote/promote their projects.

      [–]Houshalter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Posting a link to the comments section of something you posted in a different subreddit isn't for karma. They would get the same amount if you just posted the link in that subreddit. It's to get it attention in the bigger subreddit or to keep the discussion in one area so it isn't split between 50 different subs or something like that. It is kind of unfair in some cases, but most of the time I think it should be allowed and is no where near as bad as what other people do to game this site.

      [–]fobi -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      I just wanted to thank you for a very informative post.

      [–]ishti10 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Looks great!

      [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      This is awesome!

      [–]steakmeout -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      I think David Braben has some 'splainin to do.