Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests
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Requests for arbitration
Use this section to request the committee open an arbitration case. To be accepted, an arbitration request needs 4 net votes to "accept" (or a majority). Arbitration is a last resort. WP:DR lists the other, escalating processes that should be used before arbitration. The committee will decline premature requests. Requests may be referred to as "case requests" or "RFARs"; once opened, they become "cases". Before requesting arbitration, read the arbitration guide. Then click the button below. Complete the instructions quickly; requests incomplete for over an hour may be removed. Consider preparing the request in your userspace. To request enforcement of an existing arbitration ruling, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. To clarify or change an existing arbitration ruling, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment. This page is for statements, not discussion.
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Requests for clarification and amendment
Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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Amendment request: Fringe science
Initiated by DGG at 16:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- DGG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- To the clause
In this ruling, the term "fringe science" refers to matters which purport to be science, or use its trappings and terminology but are not usually regarded as such by the general scientific community; and to matters which do not claim to be scientific but nevertheless make claims that are normally considered within the purview of science.
should be added "This should be interpreted according to the community guideline at WP:FRINGE''
- To the clause
- Replace the statement
Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science.
should be replaced by Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, but material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas." in order to match the guideline at WP:FRINGE
- Replace the statement
- Add a clause: In particular, WP:NPOV requires that High-quality sources should not be excluded from articles purely on the basis of the viewpoint they represent. Discussions of the quality of sources must not take account of what viewpoint they represent. Likewise, WP:V requires that every statement in an article be directly supported by a reliable source. Material must not be included in articles only on the basis of communicating the "correct" view, if it is not supported by the sources it cites."
- Add a clause: Fringe political, social, and religious views are not part of science. The above definitions do not apply. The fundamental policies WP:NPOV and WP:V do apply ; in particular, WP:NPOV requires that sources should not be excluded from articles on the basis of the viewpoint they represent.
Statement by DGG
The reason for this request is the arguments on sources that keep occurring on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, WP:RSN, when dealing with minority views, where the arb com rulings have been used to prevent the inclusion of reasonably reputable sources. This includes among others recent discussions in the scientific areas of Covid, Race & Intelligence, Genetically modified organisms, climate change, and various aspects of medicine, and in the areas of American and other national politics, nationalism in different regions, and various conspiracy theories. See WP:DSTOPICS
The hope is to focus the arguments over sourcing, decrease the need for AE and discretionary sanctions, make further requests for arbitration cases in such areas unnecessary--and possibly even reduce the need for some of the discussions and arguments that arise.
I am not necessarily saying that all of the areas mentioned should rightfully be included under WP:FRINGE; I am certainly not saying that all or most of the arb com decisions or the community decisions based on them were improper, or led to incorrect conclusions. I have been involved in many such discussions at WP:RSN and elsewhere; sometimes the views I supported have been upheld, and sometimes not. I have no intention of re-arguing any of them here, or of using this request to challenge or overturn any previous decision by arbitrators or the community. The purpose of this request is to act as a guide for future discussions.
I am not naming parties, as this applies to everyone who might be working in these areas. I am notifying WP:RSN and Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard
- @brady: you are being asked not to "reduce Wikipedia's dependence on academic peer-reviewed sources in fringe scientific topics by denying them priority over other sources" but by letting other sources be used to a limited extent in a proper qualified way, instead of being rejected out of hand. Rather than "denying them priority", I would say "reducing their priority when necessary for NPOV. " I am not suggesting removing the key prnciple in the case
Scientific focus: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and its content on scientific and quasi-scientific topics will primarily reflect current mainstream scientific consensus.
- @Sowhy, About half the arb com decisions have been indirect rulings on content This is to some extent inevitable because content disagreements are at the root of most of WP's long standing disputes Every case dealing with ethnic or nationalist issues is at heart a dispute over content, carried out by attacking sourcing. I certainly was aware of the content implications of the cases in my 5 years, and I think other arbs were also. One tries to not let it over-influence one's decision, but an awareness is always in the background.
- @David Gerard, re-analyzing all of the fringe-related disputes at RSN over the last 12 years would take many times my 1000 words; even just discussing the other fringe-related arb cases would; and the responses of everyone interested in all of them would make a discussion here totally impossible. That's why I decided to keep this as general as possible, and why I decided not to challenge here the results of any of the discussions..
- Based on the comments of various arbitrators, the principles and FoFs in this case should not be used to justify actions regarding individual articles or sources. However, @brady has also commented that they would want to see how these changes would affect particular controversies, which implies they are authoritative principles . Perhaps this should be treated as a request for clarification? Perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify in arb policy that the statements in any one case apply to that particular case only, but not to any future instance involving the same principles. But presumably that would only apply to decisions not resulting in DS or similar sanctions about specific articles and topics--since in such cases the principles and FoF are specifically or implicitly used as the basis for the sanctions. Is that the intended meaning? DGG ( talk ) 01:32, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: To a considerable degree, you are right. What is said by arb com doesn't always necessarily make a difference in how things work, any more than does the wording of policy and guidelines. People do quote what they want, and interpret it however they want. The only thing that actually matters in the end is what gets decided in individual instances about individual articles, and that tends to be quite variable. (I've said myself that for many articles at AfD, I could equally well make a policy-based argument to keep or delete), PerhapsI should have continued my usual course, which is to concentrate patiently on these.
- There is a reason I went back to this case from 12 ago: it has been the basis of most decisions in the general area since then. Checking User:Bradv/Arbitration cases by creation date there were earlier ones, but what may be the first Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming (2005), is from just before my time in WP. In 2005-07 WP was contending with the pushers of some really absurd doctrines--see in particular Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal (2007), which I do recall. A rather strict adherence to rules for sourcing was justified, though I remember even then saying how they could potentially be misused. . More recently, we know how to deal with the really strange conspiracy theories that arise, and arguments have usually concerned matters where the minority view has some degree of rational support--very small in some cases, but still within the bounds of the rational. I think with these the approach needs to be different--to be quite inclusive with both topics and sources ,while still avoiding veering off into nonsense. At RFCs at RSN, a majority does in practice have the power to shut out the views of a minority, and at AE it is very difficult to over-rule admins willing to remove editors of whom they disapprove; we need to at least specify some limits, even though we realize we can not fully enforce them. DGG ( talk ) 08:03, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Without going into the specifics of individual sources, the material cited by Ferahgo is a clear recent indication of my key points here : the error of narrow restrictions on sourcing, and the error of too broad an application of fringe to cover minority viewpoints. It also raises another issue I intended to deal with separately, the danger of how wording of arb com decisions can be used by individual admins at DS. It additionally shows the extreme risk to NPOV from the decision of arb com in their most recent case WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics#Final decision, whereby DS
may include ... moratoriums up to one year on initiating RfCs on a particular dispute
, which can prevent reconsideration of even the most biased closure. (as written it would seem to apply only to that case, but some arbs have said they would like to have it as a general rule, or that it already is a general rule). See WT:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian_politics/Proposed_decision#Levivich's_section and User_talk:Barkeep49#Recent_Arb_Decision_on_RfCs . DGG ( talk ) 22:29, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Without going into the specifics of individual sources, the material cited by Ferahgo is a clear recent indication of my key points here : the error of narrow restrictions on sourcing, and the error of too broad an application of fringe to cover minority viewpoints. It also raises another issue I intended to deal with separately, the danger of how wording of arb com decisions can be used by individual admins at DS. It additionally shows the extreme risk to NPOV from the decision of arb com in their most recent case WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics#Final decision, whereby DS
- I hotice that, referring to the Principles and FoF under discussion, @Worm says that it may not reflect the current state of the encyclopedia while @Captain Eek says "Seeing as these have stood for over a decade, it appears they were correct and factual. ". It seems to me that those two statements are contradictory. There is not necessarily anything wrong or surprising in that-- there have always been disagreements, as any examination of proposed decisions will show. Perhaps @Barkeep's statement is correct that It only has weight if other people agree it does.
- So far we've heard from 7 arbs--- it might be helpful if the other 8 were to give their opinion also. -DGG
Statement by Alexbrn
I don't think arbcom should have jurisdiction over content decisions, so the current ruling is an unfortunate artefact from the past. Revoking it may, however, give the impression that somehow restrictions are being lifted. The proposed amendment looks even worse, in that in some respects it seems to want to make an end-run around core policy. In particular, for fringe topics the proposed text "WP:NPOV requires that High-quality sources should not be excluded from articles purely on the basis of the viewpoint they represent" is simply wrong, since for fringe topics WP:GEVAL has:
... plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it ... (emphasis mine)
The proposed amendment would allow the pseudoscience in apparently "high-quality" sources (e.g. peer-reviewed articles in homeopathy journals) passage into Wikipedia, or at least fuel drama over arguing for it. It is important that Wikipedia does not include fringe ideas except through the lens of accepted academic scholarship, where it exists.
If there's an issue with policy, fix the policy text. I say: don't try and provide additional layers of amendement to an area which is already plagued by WP:WL and drama. Alexbrn (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
@Ferahgo the Assassin: Your long post about NightHeron's (and other's) editing is all very interesting, but what has this to do with the proposal at hand, on amending historical arbcom rulings? What you describe seems to be a dispute in a topic area under WP:AC/DS: if editors are misbehaving there, open a WP:AE case. Alexbrn (talk) 05:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Pyrrho the Skeptic
Clerk note: the below was to respond to bradv. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 17:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused over point 6, because WP:MEDRS states: The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles
, but this amendment seems like it would state that popular press is fine in fringe medicine, if that same source is used for, say, politics. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 17:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
ADDING: There appears to be some conflict regarding defining "fringe theories" vs defining "quackery" in medicine. If the amendment is made to be consistent with this language from WP:FRINGE ...but material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas.
, then that makes sense. But then I feel like a distinction needs to be made between WP:FRINGE being applied to "fringe theories" and WP:MEDRS being applied to "quackery". Otherwise you might always have disputes with editor 1 using ArbCom/WP:FRINGE language to justify "non-academic" sources and editor 2 using WP:MEDRS to claim only peer-reviewed, medical, secondary sources be used in a given content dispute. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Ferahgo
This request relates to an issue that I recently discussed in general terms on the Arbcom mailing list, and also in more specific terms with Arbcom member Barkeep49. There are a few closely-related issues that need to be addressed, but I think this request is mostly directed at the fact that there are a few topics where journalistic sources (such as articles in newspapers and magazines) are being given priority over academic journals and textbooks. In some cases, the academic sources have been declared unreliable sources on the basis of the viewpoint they present, because they contradict the view presented in journalistic sources, which is assumed to be the mainstream one.
I am not sure what the best way to address this would be. The matter of general policy raised here needs addressing, but there is also a behavioral aspect. Over the past year or so there have been several cases of editors adding material to articles that misrepresents its sources, with the justification that WP:FRINGE requires this material to be included, and every attempt to challenge or remove the material has been rejected on the same grounds. There have been a few attempts to raise this issue with the broader community, but none of the discussions about it at noticeboards have resolved anything.
I would rather not get into specific examples, because I'd like to keep this request focused on general matters of policy, instead of specific topics. But I can provide more specific details about the background if necessary, either here or on the Arbcom mailing list (I'd prefer the latter). -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: The problem is something like this: several topic areas have recently had similar problems in which WP:FRINGE has been used as a justification for ignoring other content policies, such as requiring the inclusion of material that misrepresents its sources. There are two topics in particular where this has been happening over the past year. My understanding is that in the past few months one of the two topics has improved somewhat, but the other has not.
- I think this request ought to stay focused on general issues of policy, but I've gone into more detail in our email correspondence. As I mentioned in that correspondence, there have been multiple noticeboard discussions that tried and failed to resolve the issue, and one of the recent discussions about it concluded that it could not be resolved without Arbcom's intervention. DGG's and my hope with this request is that Arbcom could address it by addressing the policy principles, which apply to multiple topics, instead of the specifics of just one or two topics.
- If you feel that the proposed amendment is not the best way forward, other solutions such as opening a full case with a narrower scope may be more viable. But I request that Arbcom please not pass the buck back to the community, because the community has already tried and failed to resolve this issue several times. I think you're the arbitrator who has the greatest familiarity with this background, so I'd appreciate your guidance on the best way to address it. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
@Barkeep49: Alright. If you need specific evidence of something within Arbcom's remit, then I suppose keeping this request focused on general issues of policy won't be possible - and Generalrelative has already linked to one of the earlier discussions anyway, which makes it obvious what topic area precipitated this request. I'm going to focus on the issue of misrepresented sources here, because while it isn't the only behavioral issue in this area, it's the one where Arbcom is most likely to understand the nature of the problem.
- 26-27 April 2020: NightHeron changes the lead of the race and intelligence article from "there is no direct evidence that these differences in test scores have a genetic component" to "there is no scientific evidence that these differences in test scores have a genetic component". [1] On the talk page, he argues that sources aren't required for this change because the hereditarian hypothesis (that group differences include a genetic component) is classified as a fringe theory. [2] [3]
- 2 May 2020: NightHeron makes the same alteration to the body of the article, changing "no direct evidence" to "no scientific evidence". In this case the original wording was supported by three sources, and NightHeron changed the text without changing the sources that it cited. [4] "No direct evidence" had been the exact wording of the three sources cited there, or a very close paraphrase (see Gardenofaleph's summary here). This distinction between "evidence" and "direct evidence" is more than just a semantic change: for example, James Flynn's well-known book Race, IQ and Jensen contains a chapter titled "Direct evidence and indirect", in which Flynn argues that there is indirect evidence for a genetic cause, but direct evidence for an environmental cause.
- April-May 2020: NightHeron removes most of the material from the article that had been cited to Earl B. Hunt's textbook Human Intelligence. [5] [6] [7] NightHeron and other editors justify these removals on the grounds that this book is in favor of the position that group differences in average IQ scores have a genetic component, and thus material in the book presenting this view is inadmissible. [8] [9]
- June to August 2020: Generalrelative changes the wording of this part of the article article from "There is no scientific evidence that the test score gap has a genetic component" to "The current scientific consensus is that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups". They also add the same material to three other articles. [10] [11] [12] [13] Finally, in the edits to Intelligence Quotient, Heritability of IQ, and Race and intelligence, they add a citation to Earl Hunt's textbook Human Intelligence for this statement.
- Let me call attention to two things about Generalrelative's citing of Hunt's texbook for this statement. First, this is the same source that has had most of its citations removed on the grounds that it is arguing in favor of a genetic contribution. Second, earlier the same month Generalrelative had added a quote from this book saying "The argument for genetic differences has been carried forward largely by circumstantial evidence", which is obviously not the same as saying there is a consensus that no evidence exists for a genetic contribution. For the book's actual position on this question, see the quote that I posted here: [14]
- 13-14 March 2021: Three editors - Stonkaments, Gardenofaleph, and an IP editor - raise objections that this part of the article is not supported by its sources. However, NightHeron doesn't allow the material be modified, arguing that these editors' objections are invalid because the material is required by consensus. [15] [16]
- 18-23 March 2021: Stonkaments raises the issue of these misrepresented sources at the NOR noticeboard. After about two days, JzG shuts down the discussion there. [17] When challenged about this closure in his user talk, JzG explains that in order to raise his objection that sources are being misrepresented, Stonkaments first would have to successfully argue that the hereditarian hypothesis is not fringe, and that Stonkaments will likely be topic banned if he makes further attempts to raise the issue. [18]
- 1-2 May 2021: I open a RFC at the RS noticeboard about the issue of misrepresented sources, as well as the fact that older and lower-quality sources are being given priority over more recent sources of higher quality. This RFC is shut down by JzG after about 12 hours. [19]
- 3-5 May 2021: Shortly after the RFC has been shut down, a discussion begins about opening a new RFC which would examine this question of sourcing. [20] However, while that discussion is still underway, NightHeron opens a new RFC on the article's talk page which avoids the question of sourcing. [21] He explains that he is opening this RFC in order to prevent anyone else from opening one that examines the sourcing question. [22] [23]
- 9 May 2021: AndewNguyen tries to open a separate RFC to examine the sourcing question. This RFC is immediately shut down by an uninvolved user, with the explanation that it is inappropriate to open a new RFC in addition to the one that is already open. [24] [25] Thus, NightHeron was successful in the strategy he described in the two comments linked above: that he could prevent the community from discussing his misrepresentation of sources by opening an RFC which avoided this question.
Something I should point out about this sequence of events is that since March 2020, the race and intelligence article has had a special restriction (implemented by you) saying that anyone who misrepresents a source will be subjected to "escalating topic bans". But no admin has been willing to enforce this restriction, and during the year and a half that it has existed, no one has ever been sanctioned under it. However, editors who tried to raise the issue of misrepresented sources have been threatened with topic bans for doing so, JzG's response to Stonkaments that's linked above being one example. In summary, this is a behavioral issue (misrepresentation of sources) that the community has persistently been unable to address, in part because the sourcing restriction that you imposed turned out to be unenforceable.
Finally, let me call attention to the previous arbitration request last year about more or less the same issue (see Literaturegeek's summary). In that discussion, user:SMcCandlish predicted that if Arbcom declined to act on the earlier request, the same issue would inevitably come back to Arbcom again. That's exactly what has happened. This time could Arbcom please deal with the issue, so that it won't have to be brought back to Arbcom a third time in 2022? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 05:41, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Would Arbcom like me to send them a scan of the relevant part of Hunt's textbook, so they can see for themselves what it says about this matter? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 03:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by David Gerard
Speaking as an editor who works in WP:FRINGE-plagued areas and is a regular participant in WP:RSN: This request needs more details on precisely what requests were the issue, and precisely how the present rules resulted in a bad outcome. I recall several cases where editors brought fringe conspiracist views on COVID-19 to WP:RSN claiming that mentions in the popular press meant they belonged in more medical articles as supported views, or conversely, where questionably-reliable journals were being used to claim academic imprimatur for a fringe conspiracist view; but, rather than second-guessing the proposer's intent, I would like to know the precise difficult cases that would convince someone who thinks the present rule works very well in practice (e.g., me) that normal processes had clearly failed disastrously enough there was a problem needing action. I'm willing to be convinced, but I would have to be convinced - David Gerard (talk) 18:17, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DGG fair enough, it just seems to me a claim that could really benefit from clear examples - David Gerard (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
additional note: in fairness, I can see a case in principle for bring the question back to the arbcom - I have referenced the arbcom decision myself in disputes over WP:FRINGE issues, to indicate the issue has teeth - David Gerard (talk) 20:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
another note: if this is prone to be seized upon in an attempt to relitigate the race and intelligence RFC yet again, that's an excellent worked example of why not to change anything - David Gerard (talk) 07:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
yeah, it looks like that's precisely what it is. I suggest closing this as a waste of everyone else's time and presumption of good faith, as jps has noted - David Gerard (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by North8000
I have a sidebar but important point. Fringe is MUCH broader than fringe science (which the current scope wording pretty well defines....e.g. purports to be science...) Introducing the much broader wp:fringe into the arbcom scope statement would make a mess out of the scope definition. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Firefangledfeathers
Has anyone at RSN ever cited the Fringe science arbitration case? I am looking for examples and finding none. WP:FRINGE is cited frequently, but I haven't found anything referencing the case and I'm 2/3 of the way through the search results. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Worm That Turned: you asked "Does anyone have examples where the principles have been specifically called out in recent discussions?". DGG claims this has happened at RSN. There's plenty of evidence that this has not happened: If the principles of this old case are not being cited, what benefit could there be to changing them? On the other hand, WP:FRINGE itself is cite ubiquitously, but there's no evidence to show that debate over WP:FRINGE requires an ArbCom case. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:54, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- These search results show 117 uses of the word "fringe" at RSN, if "WP:FRINGE" is excluded. I've looked through them all, and it's clear that none are referencing the Fringe science arbitration case.
- WP:ARBFS is the only shortcut to the case, and it's never been used at RSN.
Statement by jps
Oooh! I'm a party to the original case! Do I get extra points for that? Anyhoo... I think it best to let sleeping dogs lie. In this case, I have not seen much in the way of misuse of these particular rulings. I am actually much more concerned with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Questionable_science which has been used to tie the hands of editors over at psychoanalysis, but last I brought that up, the committee demurred for much the same rationale as they seem currently wont to offer. Fair enough. Let's preserve the history and move on. jps (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have to say that the context that has now been provided for this request makes me feel a bit like this is a WP:GAME on the part of the requester and allies who have been collaborating both on and off-wiki apparently to win a fight. I feel a bit like our good faith has been taken advantage of. jps (talk) 12:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Generalrelative
Anyone who is perplexed by DGG's request may want to take a look at this discussion on a user talk page for background. I’ll ping Stonkaments as a courtesy since it’s their page. Generalrelative (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- At this point the only thing in Ferahgo's statement I think I need to respond to is the pronoun she uses to refer to me. They/them for me please. Happy to discuss the proper interpretation of Hunt if called upon to do so. Generalrelative (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- I see that Ferahgo has now edited her statement, changing my pronoun to "they". I appreciate it, though in the future please remember to make it visible when you alter a comment that has been responded to, e.g. by
strikingdeleted words. Generalrelative (talk) 17:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)- Since a couple of uninvolved parties here appear to give some credence to Ferahgo's accusation of misrepresentation of sources, I suppose it's time for me to state my side of things. The distinction between primary and secondary material within a single source which SMcCandlish brings up gets to the heart of the issue surrounding how to use and interpret Hunt –– which is, in turn, key to unraveling Ferahgo’s accusation. Indeed, I made a similar point on the R&I talk page almost a year ago,[26] though any observer of this case could be forgiven for not having read through the extensive archived discussions there. The bit that Ferahgo describes as Hunt’s
actual position
is clearly a statement of opinion, and not even an expert opinion at that since it is a psychologist opining about what is likely to be the case in the field of genetics. As was argued on the talk page (apparently persuasively to the majority of page watchers) this makes it UNDUE for inclusion, especially if it represents a FRINGE position. On the other hand, where Hunt acts as a secondary source –– and I credit him for making the distinction relatively clear –– he indicates that no evidence has ever emerged to support the speculations of racial hereditarians. The full quote, which appears in the Hunt citation I added to a number of articles, is:It is worth remembering that no genes related to difference in cognitive skills across the various racial and ethnic groups have ever been discovered. The argument for genetic differences has been carried forward largely by circumstantial evidence. Of course, tomorrow afternoon genetic mechanisms producing racial and ethnic differences in intelligence might be discovered, but there have been a lot of investigations, and tomorrow has not come for quite some time now.
The question of how to interpret this statement was thoroughly discussed by Hob Gadling, MrOllie, NightHeron, an IP, a sock of MIkemikev, Stonkaments, Gardenofaleph, Aquillion and myself, with MrOllie remarking (again, apparently persuasively to the majority) thatThis is scientist for 'no evidence' the same way that 'works as well as placebo' is medical researcher for 'it doesn't do anything'.
[27] After this I considered the matter essentially settled, since no new objections were ever raised, as far as I could tell –– only old ones repeated. Generalrelative (talk) 16:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Since a couple of uninvolved parties here appear to give some credence to Ferahgo's accusation of misrepresentation of sources, I suppose it's time for me to state my side of things. The distinction between primary and secondary material within a single source which SMcCandlish brings up gets to the heart of the issue surrounding how to use and interpret Hunt –– which is, in turn, key to unraveling Ferahgo’s accusation. Indeed, I made a similar point on the R&I talk page almost a year ago,[26] though any observer of this case could be forgiven for not having read through the extensive archived discussions there. The bit that Ferahgo describes as Hunt’s
- I see that Ferahgo has now edited her statement, changing my pronoun to "they". I appreciate it, though in the future please remember to make it visible when you alter a comment that has been responded to, e.g. by
Statement by RandomCanadian
From a quick read, this looks like "overriding established policy [including NPOV] via ArbCom". Not only is this usually something entirely out of the scope of ArbCom (whether via an amendment request or otherwise), but this hasn't even been attempted through the regular channels. Bradv's summary seems correct, and "we are being asked to reduce Wikipedia's dependence on academic peer-reviewed sources in fringe scientific topics by denying them priority over other sources" smells like an absolutely horrible idea (we really want to give equal weight to recognised experts and to Johnny Idiot writing in conspiracy theorist sham journal?) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:05, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by XOR'easter
Regarding the proposed addition Fringe political, social, and religious views are not part of science
: this is a highly touchy point, and a matter where lines of demarcation are difficult to draw. People advocate fringe science for political, social, and/or religious reasons; sometimes, a view could reasonably be called all of those things. I think it's a bad idea to try separating them with the force of wiki-law, as it were. Doing so would deprive editors of the freedom to address thorny questions and gray areas on a case-by-case basis as necessary.
The second bullet point proposes a modification in order to match the guideline at WP:FRINGE
, but the current text seems entirely in accord with WP:FRINGE, while the replacement is less so. WP:FRINGE says, If an article is written about a well-known topic about which many peer-reviewed articles are written, it should not include fringe theories that may seem relevant but are only sourced to obscure texts that lack peer review.
And, if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer reviewed journal
(emphasis added). In other words, peer-reviewed articles are always to be preferred when the subject is within the purview of the regular academic literature. WP:FRINGE doesn't say material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas
; it says they may be the best available option outside of these areas.
The third bullet point suggests adding the instruction Discussions of the quality of sources must not take account of what viewpoint they represent.
This seems an unwarranted restriction that would, on the face of it, make many discussions at RSN invalid. Perhaps it is not always a good argument, but it is not a genre of argument that should be forbidden by wiki-law. Again, we should not deprive editors of the ability to discuss their way through gray areas on a case-by-case basis. XOR'easter (talk) 02:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Szmenderowiecki
I will analyse the statements one-by-one, in some cases from a potential Wikilawyering standpoint.
- Amendment 1. Fringe science is what I believe to be a rather obvious term that does not need additional explanation. Linking it to WP:FRINGE would actually distort the sense normally being put in these words. Since the definition goes that
the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field
, it has also to do with WP:DUE than simply BS science, which is how the term "fringe science" is commonly understood. - Amendment 2. While the additional clause makes the judgment more in line with WP:FRINGE, sort of, I side with Pyrrho the Skeptic in that additions from "fringe theories" guideline text is incompatible with "fringe science" judgment for WP:MEDRS reasons. For broad definitions of science as "knowledge about something" and not simply "hard sciences" (it seems to be the interpretation as "history" is also mentioned in the rule), there might be additional conflicts in ArbCom's rulings rising from the anti-Semitism in Poland case, or any other similar ruling where heightened requirements for sourcing have been set. Namely, the change might encourage those in the dispute in the area topics related to the area to challenge WP:APL, or any ruling with similar sourcing requirements, by citing the amended ruling and then insisting that any history article in the mass media, so long as it clears the RS bar, is permissible; thus unnecessarily escalating the case again to ArbCom, which would then have to determine which ruling is the controlling one. First, that's too much SCOTUS, too little Wikipedia; secondly, non-academic sources are a whole tier below academic ones, so we shouldn't encourage parity between the two.
- Amendment 3. I see problems with sentence two of the addition. In some areas, it is often thanks to the viewpoint that we know that the article is of low quality (as anti-vaxxer "studies" almost always are, or, as from my edit history, studies purporting to say that the Warsaw concentration camp had a giant gas chamber that killed 200K Poles), so it might provoke an argument by which a person who might want to promote fringe views refers to the amendment and says "but hey, you only said that this paper is anti-vax but we are expressly discouraged to judge the paper only by the viewpoint of the author", which would lead to some tedious discussions about why most, or all, anti-vax papers are not acceptable. Also, from the last sentence it would appear that so long as the material is supported by sources, one can introduce whatever material communicating The Truth® (that "if" condition is problematic); but what is needed here is simply a stern warning against POV-pushing + a separate warning to correctly interpret each source at hand.
- Amendment 4. If you remove "The above definitions do not apply" sentence, which might encourage people to promote fringe views that the filer proposes to exempt from the ruling, take into account the Amendment 3 remarks and the XOR'easter's remarks, para 1 and 3 (see section above), that might be fine, but then I'd like to see the modified proposal.
While the intent of the author is well-understood ("don't dismiss science you don't like if it is prevalent enough"), the wording weakens the sourcing requirements too much, makes the ruling incompatible with the more recent resolutions and might encourage tedious Wikilawyering disputes where there are more than enough disputes to begin with in the topic area. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:54, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by NightHeron
Ferahgo has now made a series of false or misleading accusations against me and other editors (without notifying me, by the way). A year-and-a-half ago I was the OP of an RfC on Race and Intelligence at WP:FTN that was closed with a determination that racial hereditarianism (the view that certain races are genetically endowed with less intelligence than others) is a fringe view. Ferahgo is one of a small number of editors who have refused to accept that consensus and since that time have been forum-shopping in an attempt to reverse or circumvent it. After the RfC closure was upheld on appeal at AN, AndewNguyen appealed to ArbCom, making misconduct accusations against editors who'd participated in the RfC. An IP who had participated extensively in the RfC advanced an absurd conspiracy theory, accusing me of being a false-flag right-winger disguised as a left-winger in order to embarrass Wikipedia. A similar conspiracy theory is again advanced by an IP (perhaps the same one) in the user-page discussion that is linked to in Generalrelative's comment here.
This is not the place to refute all of Ferahgo's allegations claiming misuse or misrepresentation of sources. These matters have already been discussed at talk-pages, RSN, and elsewhere, and the consensus of editors has not supported those allegations (which is what Ferahgo seems to mean by saying that the community has been unable to resolve the content and sourcing issues). I'd like to just respond to Ferahgo's claim that I acted improperly in starting an RfC at the R&I talk-page in response to the claim by these editors that the outcome of the earlier RfC on R&I had been implemented wrongly, and that, if the community had only known about the nefarious way that I and others would edit the R&I page, they never would have voted the way they did. Ferahgo neglects to mention that the reason for the speedy closure of Ferahgo's RfC by an admin was that Ferahgo's RfC statement was lengthy, complicated, and tendentiously worded in an obvious attempt to skew the outcome -- in blatant violation of policy, which says that an RfC statement should be neutrally worded, short and simple
. The short and neutrally worded RfC that I started at the R&I talk-page ([28]) ended in a snow-close reaffirming the consensus that racial hereditarianism is a fringe POV. Both RfCs on race and intelligence had extensive participation by many editors -- over 50 in 2020 and about 35 in 2021. About 90% of the participating editors in the second RfC did not buy the claims of the disgruntled editors.
There has been no failure of policy or failure of the community that needs to be addressed by ArbCom. NightHeron (talk) 09:21, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Gardenofaleph's comment below misstates the issue. The journal Intelligence was not rejected as a source when we edited Race and intelligence in accordance with WP:FRINGE. It's in fact cited 6 times in the R&I article. However, Intelligence is the official journal of the International Society of Intelligence Research, which is probably the most active organization promoting racial hereditarianism. The articles in that journal are not RS for the purpose of determining scientific consensus on race and intelligence or for refuting the conclusions of the 2020 and 2021 RfCs that the theory of genetic inferiority of certain races in intelligence is a fringe POV. NightHeron (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Gardenofaleph
I recommend that ArbCom read the discussion here for additional background. High-quality sources that have been declared non-RS on the basis of the viewpoints they present have included several books from Cambridge University Press; Papers published in Perspectives on Psychological Science, Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, Human Nature, and the Journal of Biosocial Science, and one entire academic journal (Intelligence). Some of the time, the decisions to reject these sources have been based on sources of lower quality as defined as WP:SOURCETYPES, such as articles published in The Guardian and New Statesman, while in other cases Wikipedia editors have come up with their own justifications for rejecting these books and papers, in the absence of any reliably published criticism.
The conclusion that these sources are unreliable has not been supported by any decision at the RS noticeboard. Every attempt to discuss the issue there has either been shut down as in this case, or ended without concluding anything as in the more recent case. So the rejection of these sources does not appear to be supported by the broader community or by RS policy, but several editors have acted as though it's required by policy.
DGG's proposed amendment would possibly solve this issue, by defining a set of principles about the circumstances where it's acceptable to reject a source for this type of reason. Opening a new case could address it, too. But there is next to no chance the community could resolve this without some intervention by ArbCom. Every recent attempt to discuss the issue at the RS noticeboard has failed to reach any conclusion, and that will likely continue to be the case going forward. Gardenofaleph (talk) 16:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by JayBeeEll
Quoting Worm That Turned below: I'm concerned that what is being asked for is the committee to make "a statement" about the Fringe topic area which would then influence future content decisions
. Yes, this is exactly what is being requested, and per David Gerard and jps this request should be dismissed with prejudice. --JBL (talk) 21:03, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Stonkaments
On multiple contentious topics, WP:FRINGE has been cited as justification for excluding reliable sources, misrepresenting sources, and making unsupported claims about the scientific consensus. This is not a content dispute; it's a broader issue of editors misinterpreting FRINGE in a way that is inconsistent with WP:V and WP:NPOV, and has caused harm to the project. As such, I believe the community would greatly benefit from ArbCom clarification that FRINGE does not preempt other policies. This does not mean de-prioritizing academic sources or giving fringe views undue weight, but simply handling fringe views in a manner that is consistent with all other policies—DUE, NPOV, V, etc. Stonkaments (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
I generally agree with this request, except all this clarification that an RS cannot be excluded because of its viewpoint badly needs a reminder codicil that opinion/op-ed material in a generally reliable source is still a primary source not secondary even if most of what it publishes is secondary. There is a lot of confusion about this, all the time. E.g. a journal or newspaper that usually has literature reviews or proper news, respectively, gets cited for an editorial stance it has taken and then is claimed to be a reliable source for the truth of that stance. It is not. It is just a WP:ABOUTSELF-reliable source that the publication's editorial viewpoint is that viewpoint and that they did say what they did. (This comes up beyond WP:FRINGE contexts but also often in WP:MEDRS and in politics. I just now ran into it yet again only a few minutes ago in a socio-political RfC, for example.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:45, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
Principles and FoFs from old cases probably shouldn't be changed. IME ArbCom only interacts with DS at a high level, setting out the procedures and then largely letting admins manage it's running in practice. Perhaps there would be scope for ArbCom to set high-level subject-specific guidance. For example, in APL there is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations which is guidance at a high level. Similarly, there could be scope to add a remedy to the referenced case (titled "Interpretation" or some such) with high level guidance, assuming the substance of this request would improve enforcement in the manner DGG describes. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:58, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Black Kite
The very first sentence of this request is "The reason for this request is the arguments on sources that keep occurring on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, WP:RSN, when dealing with minority views, where the arbcom rulings have been used to prevent the inclusion of reasonably reputable sources.". Yet apart from one tangentally related issue that has been raised in the conversation above, I don't see any evidence of these occurrences of the arbcom ruling being used at RSN, let alone "keep occurring". I would be interested to see some. Also, we should absolutely not be considering any modification which would cause WP:FRINGE to be made weaker - the third change in particular would effectively do this. If people are misusing FRINGE in rare cases, that can be dealt with through our regular processes; but FRINGE is there for a very good reason (as is WP:PSCI, which is policy). Black Kite (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
I agree with Alexbrn; the first two requested amendments are puzzling, but the second two are ghastly. The summary of them directly misrepresents both the relevant policies and the impact they would have. WP:NPOV,WP:GEVAL, WP:DUE, and most of all WP:FRINGE specifically instruct us to, in certain circumstances, weigh inclusions and therefore sources based on the views they represent; DGG's suggestion here, if taken seriously, is effectively asking ArbCom to rewrite longstanding core policy by fiat in a way that would completely defang WP:FRINGE and weaken core parts of WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, and WP:GEVAL. I understand that it is frustrating to be told that you that you can't add something to an article you consider true and important and well-cited because your addition would gives a particular view more prominence than it is WP:DUE, because it promotes or relies on WP:GEVAL, or because it is WP:FRINGE; but those have been central pillars of Wikipedia since long before even the ancient case in question and are absolutely vital parts of how we write articles. If you think people are abusing those arguments, bring cases focused on those individual abuses and individual editors; but trying to completely defang WP:FRINGE like this is not the way to go. --Aquillion (talk) 18:41, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonate
"in particular, WP:NPOV requires that sources should not be excluded from articles on the basis of the viewpoint they represent." I don't think this would be acceptable without also mentions of WP:GEVAL, WP:PRIMARY, WP:PARITY, WP:NOTNEWS... The same sentence also admits that it's about fringe topics. I've argued myself at FTN at times that a religious doctrine simply had to clearly be defined as such in cases where it is very distinct to pseudoscience. Sometimes I'll also remind that ARBPS was an important historical precedent, but that its clauses applied to that particular case; that current policy is what matters for editorial judgement. —PaleoNeonate – 20:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Quoting David Gerard: "if this is prone to be seized upon in an attempt to relitigate the race and intelligence RFC yet again, that's an excellent worked example of why not to change anything", or COVID-19 misinformation, 9/11 conspiracy theories, or questionable medicinal treatments. WP has been reported by some sources as exemplary in its treatment of such topics, despite the repeated attempts to push such misinformation. Accusations that WP's reputation is instead tarnished for not catering to those are nonsense: I'd personally long have left WP for more reality-based projects if it generally fell into clickbait scandal, pr-ad traps, journalistic false-balance, political disinformation and science-denial by design. Fortunately there are policies against it, like WP:FRINGE, WP:PARITY, WP:RS, WP:FRIND, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:PSCI, WP:MEDRS, WP:NOT... And no, WP:FRINGE is not "abused" in relation to COVID-19-related fringe claims (just read WP:MEDRS to have an overview of the topic instead of unreliable sources or clickbait news written by people who don't understand the science). —PaleoNeonate – 07:45, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Fringe science: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Fringe science: Arbitrator views and discussion
- If I understand this request correctly, we are being asked to reduce Wikipedia's dependence on academic peer-reviewed sources in fringe scientific topics by denying them priority over other sources. I welcome statements from the community on whether these changes are desirable, what impacts they would have, and whether they would be consistent with the principles and findings of the Fringe science case in question. – bradv🍁 17:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- On second look, this is even more confusing. The items we're being requested to adjust here are not remedies, but principles and findings of fact which informed the outcome of the case. These principles make reference to and contain quotations from the NPOV policy, but we're being asked to instead make them dependent upon the FRINGE guideline, which presumably existed in a different form 12 years ago when this case was written. Furthermore, there are several comments here about how these intersecting policies and guidelines have been misused in various fora, which in my opinion is a reason to investigate those instances and patterns rather than reform the underlying principles without analysis or investigation. In other words, if revising this case is going to affect the intersection of fringe science with any of the topics listed in this filing, we should examine those topics one at a time, either in the form of an ARCA or a case request, rather than trying to argue the general without knowing the specifics. – bradv🍁 19:31, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused tbh. Requests for amendments are usually for the addition, change or removal of sanctions (as the red box on top says). This request seems to ask for the change of principles and FoF from the old case. But they just reflect the principles that existed at the time of the decision and the facts that the decision was based on. Principles are based on policies and guidelines and those can change over time. Maybe those colleagues who were on the Committee back then can shed some light on why WP:FRINGE was not referenced explicitly despite already existing as a guideline? That said, correct me if I'm wrong but the decision contains to authorization for DS or similar, so shouldn't it be sufficient to declare that ArbCom does not rule on content and the FoF and principles from the old case thus cannot override a guideline on the topic that has community approval? Regards SoWhy 18:11, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to examining how WP:FRINGE, a content guideline, interacts with Discretionary Sanctions around a particular case at AE or better yet a pattern of cases/sanctions. As has been mentioned there has been communication with the committee and with me specifically about this and so that is what I had been expecting to see. However, as SoWhy points out the FoF that were found at that time is what was found at that time. Changing anything but a remedy 12 years later strikes me as something that would be reserved for extraordinary circumstances, while this (how to handle FRINGE/minitory views in contentious areas) seems like a regular ordinary difficult content problem. The sense I get is that I'm being asked to amend a case because some people are quoting from it at RSN and that doesn't seem like the right basis for an amendment request. People can quote what they want and anything that is not a policy or guideline (that is something with predetermined community consensus) only matters as much as others in the conversation agree that it does, that is it gainsconsensuss of the participating editors. Essays get quoted approvingly all the time and form the basis of consensus for instance. To the extent that this understanding of the request is wrong, please correct me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Except @DGG that's not quite true either. We have Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Principles for a reason. I know drafters, including me with IRANPOL, make an effort to reuse those. Of course sometimes the principles are slightly different which is why you see a million variations on that page. But ultimately I go back to what I said before: people are welcome to quote whatever they want. It only has weight if other people agree it does - either by making it into a policy/guideline or by agreeing it matters in the context of a discussion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2021 (UTC) @Ferahgo: I don't want to divulge what all you sent in email to me and to the committee but in re-reading that I'm not seeing anything here that contradicts that. Specific evidence of something in our remit (i.e. not just a content dispute) is generally needed. That is what I'm looking for here regardless of the scope of what we're talking about. Obviously amending a case is in our remit but besides thinking it's a bad idea in general, I'm also not seeing evidence as to why it's needed now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm with bradv on this one - if a case is being improperly referenced or referred to, that is an issue with the editor(s) providing that link. As stated both here and in recent ARCAs, we should not be changing anything other than Remedies from past cases; the FoF and Principles reflect Wikipedia at the time and we should not be changing them just to keep them current. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm struggling with the idea of altering findings or principles of a 12 year old case. I'm quite happy to "clarify" to anyone that Principles and Findings reflect the state of the encyclopedia at the time, and since the encyclopedia has continued to develop, it may not reflect the current state of the encyclopedia - but I'm not happy to amend old cases in that way. If it's causing widespread problems, then the best solution would be a fresh arbitration request, for up to date findings and principles - but I'm not seeing that there are sufficient problems in the area that we need such a case. Does anyone have examples where the principles have been specifically called out in recent discussions? I'm concerned that what is being asked for is the committee to make "a statement" about the Fringe topic area which would then influence future content decisions, and while that might happen to an extent in a case - we should do what we can to minimise it, and should not be doing it here. WormTT(talk) 11:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- While the use of sources in the topic area is concerning, the link between the problems and the case seem tenuous at best. I will not support changing the principles or FoF of any case, absent some obvious mistake on our part. Seeing as these have stood for over a decade, it appears they were correct and factual. If folks think we need to approach the issue again, then perhaps a case request is in order. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Editing guidelines cover the areas - no need for arbcom involvement or amendment, particularly as the case has not been invoked in a discussion. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:55, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with my colleagues that there is no need to amend old principles and findings of fact to reflect changes in policy or practice; if we did that, we'd be amending old cases every time any policy changed. This Committee is not in the business of maintaining an accurate current compendium of community norms and consensus on every principle previously stated in an arbitration case, or in "ratifying" shifts in community sentiments by amending those old principles. (I can imagine two exceptions: (1) where a finding of fact directly affects a remedy, e.g., if a finding of fact defines a term used in a remedy; or (2) in extreme circumstances, if a prior decision was so contradictory to the principles of the encyclopedia that to keep it would be undignified. These should be rare and neither apply here.) I would therefore decline the request. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 07:30, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Motions
This page can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Motions. Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion". Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment. |
Requests for enforcement
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See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests. If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.(Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a discretionary sanction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Dabaqabad
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Dabaqabad
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Apaugasma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 17:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Dabaqabad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log#Horn of Africa (part of ARBHORN)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 24 August 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
- 10 September 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page
- 28 September 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
- 10 October 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
- 10 October 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (removing sourced content)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 25 January 2021 Dabaqabad blocked for 48 hours (disruptive editing in ARBHORN area)
- 4 March 2021 ARBHORN DS editing restriction imposed
- 24 August 2021 Dabaqabad blocked for 1 week (violating ARBHORN DS restriction)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
After having been blocked on 25 January 2021 for disruptive editing in the ARBHORN area, Dabaqabad was placed under a special editing restriction by El C on 4 March 2021, reading you are to always follow a revert with an article talk page comment explaining it in any and all WP:ARBHORN topic area pages or edits (whatsoever)
. They were warned on 23 March 2021 for violating the restriction. On 16 August 2021, they got into an edit war in an ARBHORN-related article (obviously including reversion without engaging on the talk page). On 24 August 2021, I inquired on El C's talk page whether the editing restriction was still active, pointing out repeated violations [29] [30] [31] [32] [33], which lead El C to block Dabaqabad for one week.
Their very first edit after getting unblocked was already a violation of the restriction [34]. Like most of Dabaqabad's reverts that stay unexplained at the talk page, this was reverting vandalism/a test edit, so at the time I decided to just leave it be. However, looking at their last 100 edits, it becomes clear that Dabaqabad is violating the editing restriction imposed on them almost casually. It's also not always obvious vandalism, e.g. [35] [36] [37] [38]. However, it becomes really egregious at the point where they are reverting the addition of reliably sourced content [39] (perhaps undue, but per their restriction they should explain this at the talk), and especially when reverting the removal of unreliably sourced (mis)information [40] [41].
Dabaqabad has little understanding of what constitutes a reliable source (for a long read, see here), and combined with the uncommunicative attitude and the clear disregard for an existing editing restriction, I believe there is enough evidence that they are not compatible with the project of building an encyclopedia.
- Since ScottishFinnishRadish mentioned it: I too was confused about this at first, but yes, the ARBHORN discretionary sanctions were extended after their initial trial period (see here).
- Let me also note that restoring my revision here (as an 'alternative' to directly reverting the other user; the gaming here itself betrays that there's no lack of awareness) was indeed restoring misinformation (which I then removed 2 edits later): I don't mean to imply that it was necessarily in bad faith (misinformation is regardless of an intention to deceive), just that this should not happen. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
@El C: common sense was precisely what I tried to rely on when determining that Dabaqabad's many violations of their restriction were as a rule reverting vandalism. The fact that I come here now is not a 'gotcha' attempt, it's just that undoing the removal of badly sourced information really is a problem. The King Saud University source used here is an unedited manuscript of the Futūḥ al-Ḥabasha ('The Conquest of Abyssinia'), written in 1534 and the main primary source used by scholars for the Ethiopian–Adal war. This is a wholly inappropriate source for Wikipedia editors to base interpretative and evaluative statements on.
I happen to be able to read that manuscript, and it doesn't call the Habr Magaadle clan leader Aḥmad Guray ibn Ḥusayn al-Ṣūmālī the "right-hand man" of Imam Ahmad: rather, the Habr Magaadle are only one in a whole series of Somali clans that are named there (pp. 14/17-15/18), and their leader only one in a whole series of clan leaders who joined their forces with the Imam. I'll admit I was wrong here in suspecting that the Aḥmad Guray ibn Ḥusayn mentioned was a fabrication, though the two Aḥmads (the clan leader and the Imam) have been conflated in later times (see here). Anyway, that's why we have to rely on secondary, scholarly sources.
Dabaqabad has frustrated an earlier attempt by me to remove unreliably sourced information like this [42], and frankly the Ishaaq bin Ahmed article is still full of misinformation because of it. This has got nothing to do with assuming bad faith or 'getting' at other editors: I just really believe that it would be a huge improvement to Wikipedia if we would ban users from editing articles of which they clearly have no understanding on how to reliably source it. We're too focused generally on dramatic conflicts (blocking or banning users only when they cross some drama-line), and not enough on simply and dryly determining who is capable of writing an encyclopedia and who is not. Your custom sanction was certainly inventive, but I think it missed the main point in that someone who bases their edits on personal preconceptions rather than on what reliable sources happen to say, just ought not to edit at all. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 08:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I know I'm over my word limit here, but let me make this short clarifying statement: I just think that the smiley with the Christmas hat is really funny, and the most disarming among the available smileys. Erm, what I meant to say: what Dabaqabad is claiming below is basically that, because Somali Islamic hagiographies are being studied by respected scholars such as Alessandro Gori, we should be able to base WP articles on these hagiographies and present their contents as historical facts. It's a bit like arguing that because the Bible is extensively studied by respected scholars, we should be able to base WP articles on the Bible and present the contents of the Bible as fact. I very much respect Dabaqabad's energy and drive, but it's wholly directed at making WP present as facts what are essentially religio-nationalistic myths. It's such a pity that, because of the obscurity of the topic area, this is not more readily recognized. It's a classic case for a TBAN, really, but what is perhaps lacking is more editors who are familiar enough with the subject to see this. Thanks for trying to deal with this difficult issue anyway, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Wadamarow: that's interesting. Dabaqabad also misrepresented the same source you mention in another article [43] (cf. my correction). I weirdly assumed that one to be a good faith error, but the diff you brought up clearly shows they are really intent on puffing up the Isaaq clan numbers and misrepresenting their proportion in relation to other clans (according to the source, the Gadabuursi actually outnumber the Isaaq). I think we should be done here now. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- The problem on the Djibouti page was caused earlier by Dabaqabad here (putting the info on its head without any source). I think it speaks volumes that after we pointed it out on this page, Dabaqabad did nothing to fix that problem. I did it in their stead. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:45, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Dabaqabad
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
I think these sanctions expired back in March. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages relating to the Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes) for a trial period of three months and until further decision of this Committee.
ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:32, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Well would you look at that. I've been under the assumption for some time now that they were expired. Thanks for the info. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Dabaqabad
Hello @Apaugasma:,
Most of these edits that I reverted were made by IP users or were unsourced, which I assumed would not warrant going to the talk page. I'm not on Wikipedia as often as I used to and am prone to forgetting the arbitration ruling sometimes (which is not acceptable at all), for which I am deeply sorry and will make sure to follow it as strictly as possible.
As for [45], I had explained earlier to him in [46] that the source he used, which was written in 1975 on behalf of the Ministry of Education of Somalia, at a time where Somalia was ruled by a clan-based military dictatorship, was not a valid source since the source twists the official narrative and contradicts many sources, including the very sources it cites. More on that there. On [47] I had reverted an edit that was clearly used out of context and which the source did not explicitly mention or back up. Again, I should have followed up with a message on the talk page. On [48] I had ironically restored your edit, and the source itself could be considered a primary source at worst (I did not originally add it in so I have no idea).
I'd also like to call on you to assume good faith as expected on Wikipedia. You calling my edits "misinformation" is not. I am here solely for the project of building an encyclopedia and improving Somali-related articles which have seen a lack of editors and therefore valuable information that many people can research and use (and which I have contributed to a lot). I have put a lot of time and effort into trying my best to improve a wide array of articles and if I make mistakes (which I inevitably do) then point it out for me so I can rectify them as soon as possible. Another thing I'd like to note is that all my sources I use are to the best of my knowledge reliable and might be misinterpreted as unreliable due to the foreign languages in which they are written in.
Many thanks, Dabaqabad (talk) 18:22, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
@Apaugasma: For the Ahmed Gurey reference, again that is not my text nor did I actually use that reference so I do not see why I should be under scrutiny for that. It's funny that you mentioned [49] since you had removed a lot of reliable sources and probably a third of the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page without reaching out first, claiming the sources cited were unreliable ([50], [51], [52])
I broke down each source one by one and explained where they came from and how they are reliable as can be seen on [53] however you rejected all of them in favour of IM Lewis, who (while being an expert in the wider Somali history genre) is not an expert at Somali genealogy and Islamic literary in the Horn of Africa and has had orientalist tendencies which we both agreed on per [54]. You flat out rejected all of these sources on the basis that IM Lewis had mentioned that certain recent hagiologies were myths (despite the fact that some of them were written decades before IM Lewis became active).
I tried to compromise with you (by proposing we include wording like "attributed" and "attested") but you rejected that as well with no basis whatsoever. This is despite the fact that many of the sources that were cited were either secondary sources by themselves (some are even published by Umm al-Qura University in Makkah, Saudi Arabia as well as in other universities) or referenced by credible scholars like Alessandro Gori in his book 'Studi sulla letteratura hagiografica islamica somala in lingua araba' (Studies on the Arabic Islamic Hagiographic literature in Somalia) [55]. The book also confirms most of, if not all the content that I had put in (including Sheikh Ishaaq's lineage [56], the origin of Ghurbani, the author of a manuscript that I cited as well as his credibility and independence [57] etc.)
Mind you, Alessandro Gori is an associate professor of the Arabic Language and Literature, his main field being the Islamic literary production of the Horn of Africa (especially Ethiopia and Somalia/Somaliland). That is literally his job, to document the manuscript tradition in the Muslim communities in north-eastern Africa (especially Ethiopia and Somalia/Somaliland). Since he can be identified as the foremost expert, he therefore takes precedence over IM Lewis, who is not an expert in that specific field as I mentioned earlier. Alessandro Gato has therefore also established that the sources that I had referenced in the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page have due weight. I can give you more detail on that later in the talk page.
Changing an entire page to suit the POV of one scholar and ignoring other sources on the basis that they are "primary" sources or are discredited by said scholar is something that I doubt is acceptable on Wikipedia. "Monopolizing" pages prevents useful and reliable information from being added on to the page which hinders Wikipedians from their goal; creating an encyclopedia. Then is the fact that like El_C mentioned, it feels like it's a "gotcha" moment (not accusing you or anything but just saying). I frankly don't see how this report has been done in good-faith in all honesty, and the fact that you claim that I base my edits on personal preconceptions rather than on what reliable sources say just slightly short of confirms that for me. My violations of the sanctions and the issue with sources (which is by itself nothing more than a mere disagreement between two users and not a rule violation) that you had brought forth are unrelated and cannot be tied together.
As for @El C:, I'm wondering: does the sanctions include IPs and non-established users (those who only have a few edits to their name)? It is a bit confusing to be frank.
Many thanks, Dabaqabad (talk) 13:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
@El C: I assure everyone in here that, upon given a final last chance, and now that I have properly read up on the sanction that was imposed on me, that I'll 100% stick to it and declare all reverts that I do in the talk page and ping the editors whose edits I have reverted. I very much regret the previous sanction violations that I have committed and can assure everyone on here that they will not be repeated at all. I fully understand the rules and regulations of Wikipedia and I will make as much effort as I can to fully follow them. The few issues that I have regrettably caused aside, I have contributed a lot to Somali articles (including writing several well-sourced pages like the Somaliland War of Independence, 1922 Burao Tax Revolt not to mention towns and districts) and would more than love to contribute even more.
As for @Freetrashbox:, let me explain my reverts now;
1. For [58], the source itself never mentioned the fact that the Musa Arreh inhabited the town or that it is one of their home wells (home wells = inhabiting in this context). It is a well known fact that the Musa Arreh don't reside in the Sool region, in fact, the only subclan of the Habr Yunis that do reside there are the Sa'ad Yunis. Since Somalis are nomadic clans tend to venture far into other clans' home wells and territories to graze during the drought season, which explains the part you mentioned. The Musa Arreh primarily reside in the Togdheer and Sanaag regions as well as the Somali Region in Ethiopia (specifically the Gashamo woreda).
2. For [59] the BBC article mentions clashes between two clans in Adhi'adeye. While in the Somali context the clans are pretty obvious, in Wikipedia's context that is not the case and upon further inspection I could not find the clans mentioned there. I will be doing more research on that topic however and will be adding a credible reference to that.
3. As for [60] the fact that Abdirashid Duale is of the Sanbur clan is well-known among Somalis. I was looking for a credible source to confirm that fact however I forgot to reference it on that page. Will be doing more research and will add a credible reference to that as well.
As for @RegentsPark:, understood.
- @Apaugasma: Funnily enough I actually thanked you on the correction you made on Djibouti, which would not have been the case had there been an intentional "puffing up" that you mentioned. The Isaaq figure was the only one that actually had a percentage mentioned, and I assumed they would be the second largest Somali clan however they are the fourth, per closer inspection. I'd like for you, however, to address the points I made regarding the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page.
- As for @Wadamarow:,
1. The first two edits have already been explained per my reply to Apaugasma
2. Per [61], I had actually explained to you the fact that the Habr Awal did have a presence in eastern Awdal. Instead of refuting that claim properly you essentially "threatened" (how I perceived it) to add "Samaroon presence in Gabiley" by saying "So in the interest of fairness, if you wish to add your source here, I will reciprocate and add it in Wajaale and Gabiley pages, which I'm sure you won't have an issue with. Rest assured, I have numerous sources for Gabiley and Wajaale, so I wont have a problem adding them all. I look forward to your response." (which goes against a long-standing consensus made after a length discussion [62]) in some sort of tit-for-tat game, while also saying "[...]I won't have to rely on your source, I have my own". That link also proves that I reached out to you as well. I also removed the excessive amount of blockquotes in accordance with WP:QUOTEFARM.
3. As for [63], I was under the impression that the Isaaq-majority town of Tog Wajaale fell under the Awbarre woreda (and which you also claimed it did up until 4 years ago), but upon closer inspection again we both came to a mutual understanding. You then once again "threatened" to add the "Samaroon" presence in Wajaale ("I could easily edit your Wajaale part and include Samaroon and I have plenty of sources to back up my claims, however since I do not wish to enter an edit war I have thus far not done so. If you insist on including Habar Awal in Awbarre, then I will insist on the same for Wajaale.") based on a source that only mentioned a land dispute. All of this while failing to assume good-faith by accusing me of "tampering".
I don't get how you are bringing up past events that I got warned for and which were resolved time ago, it seems to me that this is some sort of "gotcha" moment. You're beating a dead horse. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:18, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
@Wadamarow: These accusations of partisan editing is unfounded. None of my edits that I have done so far breach any rules and do not contain any reverting (which I have strictly avoided since arbitration began and which therefore do not necessitate mentioning them in the talk pages). I HAD actually added sources. It is funny to me how your position has changed from that of me "not adding enough sources" to now me not adding sources at all. This, along with what I mentioned before, proves to me that you're not doing this out of good-faith but rather to get rid of an editor whom you disagree with. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
@Apaugasma: I'm not saying that the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page should be based upon only one source, nor did I ever imply that, but rather that the massive amount of information and reliable sources that you removed is not justifiable, especially now that I proved to you that they are backed by and sourced by a respectable scholar. While I do not believe in this notion that the Isaaqs are anything but Cushites, we do need to put in reliable information from reliable sources, especially in fields that are lacking. You're comparing apples with oranges when it comes to the comparison with the Bible, funnily enough there are actually many pages that are based on the Bible and other religious scripts (while of course containing other sources). That alone negates your point. Not to mention the fact that many pages are also based on hagiographies and other Arabic primary and secondary sources as well. The irony in all of this is the fact that you yourself was basing almost the entire article on the words of IM Lewis.
As for what you consider "religio-nationalist myths", that is how you personally see it. You cannot base your edits on your own personal opinions, your personal opinions should not affect your editing at all nor should they reflect them. If you want to, we can discuss a fair compromise for the article. I do prefer the wording used in the Ababda people article, where the article acknowledges both sides of the argument. That at least is much better than the article using wording like "probably legendary" and essentially claiming that the article is fake. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @Apaugasma:. I assumed that it was already fixed given the fact that it was brought forth in the talk page. I will be fixing the edits that @Freetrashbox: addressed now. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Update: I removed the content I added on Abdirashid Duale after I failed to find a source to back it up [64], I'll be looking into that further as well. I'll also be looking into Dayaha as well. I saw that your edits on Adhi'adeye as well. @Freetrashbox: Dabaqabad (talk) 16:14, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @Freetrashbox:,
I just added a few more sources that mention all five districts (see here). I hope that should be enough to confirm their existence. Dabaqabad (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Freetrashbox
- Moved from the section above. El_C 12:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I am glad that you [Dabaqabad] welcome pointers to your edits. I've asked a few questions about sources on your talk page in the past [65][66][67], but you don't seem to have noticed yet. I am waiting for the answers.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
You should attach sources to all of your unsourced statements, including the three above. And all your statements against WP:BLP should be revoked immediately. These are also true in general, and since you often undo other people's edits on the grounds that they are "unsourced," you should adhere to them especially closely.--Freetrashbox (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
@Dabaqabad: I have checked your edit mentioned at 16:14, 15 October 2021 (UTC). Thank you. However, it is still not enough. For example, in your recent edit on Sanaag, you reverted an IP user's edit as "vandalism". However, the source you indicated mentions Garadag, but not El Afweyn. When comparing the edits of you and the IP user, the third party editor will not be able to judge which one is correct. I am not saying that your description is wrong. IP users are objecting to your edits. In such cases, it is always a good idea to indicate the source of the information to prevent conflicts. And avoid extreme words such as "vandalism" as much as possible.--Freetrashbox (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
@Dabaqabad: Thanks for the correction. But it is not the only place where sources of information are lacking. What I've shown is just a random extract from your recent edits.--Freetrashbox (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Dabaqabad probably doesn't understand what I'm saying. He has corrected the parts I pointed out, but has made no attempt to correct the others. He also continues to edit without sources (For example, this edit.) I often translate articles from the English Wikipedia to the Japanese Wikipedia, but I can't trust articles with him in the history.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Wadamarow
Hi I would like to point out some previous violations committed by Dabaqabad.
1. In the most recent violations on the Djibouti pages which can be found here [[68]] and here [[69]]. Dabaqabad added a source to mask an edit that is not reflected in the actual source. The source which can be found here [[70]] does not state what is shown in the edit, this is tantamount to tampering with sources and in violation of Wikipedia guidelines. Dabaqabad also made this edit without mentioning it on the Talk page.
2. In the Awdal Region page which can be found here [[71]], Dabaqabad also committed similar violations where he relentlessly made edits which weren't reflected in the sources and only stopped tampering when he was warned by another admin. He also deleted sourced edits by other users.
3. In another instance on the Somali Region page he also tried to make edits without the correct use of a reference and attempted to remove sourced edits. [[72]]
This repeated pattern of behavior, where Dabaqabad does not follow the Wiki guidelines has unfortunately reduced the accuracy of some of the content on these pages. I have refrained from editing the Djibouti page so as to not get into an edit war with him. However, in light of these repeated violations a topic ban would be in the best interests of all concerned editors on the HOA Region.
- @Apaugasma: This isn't the first time it's happened either, on the Awdal page here [[73]] he removed sourced edits without reason and manipulated sources just as he did on the Djibouti pages. He also did the same on the Somali Region page here [[74]] this is despite being asked on the talk page to make sure he adds sources before editing.
Result concerning Dabaqabad
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Apaugasma, while I'm not liking parts of this complaint —what makes that King Saud University source unreliable? Almost seems like a gotcha attempt there— it is nonetheless disappointing to learn that Dabaqabad somehow forgot (forgot?) about their ARBHORN sanction, when all they seem to edit are ARBHORN pages. I'm finding that a bit difficult to reconcile, tbh.
- As I mentioned on past occasions, this sanction was intended as a boon in lieu of a topic ban from all ARBHORN pages outright. Perhaps it ought to have been tightened to only include named accounts (that Dabaqabad could ping to a talk page) but exempting IPs unless their edits or explanations thereof are especially substantive. But I don't know how practical that would have been to enforce, what metric one would use to determine that, etc. Ideally, I'd like to count on common sense [That's it, that's the end of the sentence] Miss information, she be fierce!
- Erm, sorry. Where was I? Right, the custom sanction. Likely, it was a mistake, structurally, as they often prove to be. Certainly, it seems like it was a mistake in the sense that Dabaqabad couldn't remember that it existed. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions on how to proceed, because I'm sort of drawing a blank atm (though it is late). El_C 03:28, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- RE: {{p|holidays}} — look, Apaugasma, I'm okay with putting up the Christmas lights in November (late November), but on Sept 1? Come on, give Santa a chance to rest. Double erm. Yeah, I'm not sure how one here at en is expected to infer that from the source or your previous explanations concerning it (possibly I missed it), whose Arabic text Googly does not offer to translate.
- But beyond that, I'm having serious difficulties even remembering much of the context of the March 2021 events so as to tell what's what (or what was what then). I still might be open to a sanction that would allow Dabaqabad to continue editing ARBHORN pages in some limited capacity, as an alternative to a blanket (WP:BROADLY) ARBHORN WP:TBAN. But what that sanction might look like, I have no idea. If it even makes sense to not TBAN right now in light of Dabaqabad multiple failings to adhere to the sanction. El_C 12:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Dabaqabad, I think it's bit late in the day to express confusion about a sanction which you just plain forgot existed, anyway. And before then, got blocked for violating. You've had so many months to seek clarifications. Not sure you realize this, but at this point, the likelihood that the current sanction will just be converted into a full ARBHORN topic ban is high.
- So it's probably best to deal with the underlying problems: sourcing issues, unexplained reverts (still), and assuring us that you'd even remember the existence of a sanction which covers the only topic area you edit. Again, that especially, inspires little confidence you could be relied upon to stick to the plan (whatever it might be and however it is defined as). El_C 13:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- RegentsPark, right, I was thinking of blocking for a few weeks. Myself, though, I'd like to also get the long term sorted in this request. El_C 14:08, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Given how confusing all this is, the simplest solution is a block (whatever the appropriate escalation amount is) for clearly violating the restriction. @Dabaqabad: restrictions apply to all edits, whether they be IPs, new editors, or established editors. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- @El C: Whatever you think appropriate works. On the face of it, the violations are few in number but, looking over their edits, it is clear that the Horn of Africa is their only interest. A topic ban might clarify things. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Comment by Deepfriedokra Thanks, El C for everything you bring to this discussion (well, all discussions) and for sorting the sortliness of this mess. @Dabaqabad: two things stand out. First and foremost-- this is an encyclopedia and the Horn of Africa is a "sticky wicket." As important as sourcing is in an encyclopedia, it's even more important in as contentious (in real life and on Wikipedia) an area as this one. Almost equally important anywhere, but particularly in this area, is the need to communicate clearly via edit summaries and talk pages. Lack of communication equates to miscommunication equates to someone getting the (maybe) wrong idea about what you are doing. And so here we are here now. I propose a six month TBAN of the subject area during which Dabaqabad can improve their skills at sourcing and communication. As onerous as this may sound, there are 6 x 106 articles on Wikipedia that need improvement. While it may be discomfiting to move out of a chosen area, it is also an opportunity to grow and improve. While blocking would have the desired effect of stopping the disruption, it would not provide this opportunity. And we can always resort to blocking if the TBAN is insufficient. (There's a really great quote from a Jerry Pournelle story comes to mind that's too awkward to fit in here.) But yeah, Dabaqabad, we'd hate for it to come to that. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:56, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- I support Deepfriedokra's proposed topic ban solution as the best response in that it potentially avoids the need for blocking and provides time for the user to educate themselves on the rules and standards. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 02:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Amanda A. Brant
There is not a clear consensus that Amanda A. Brant has violated discretionary sanctions. The prevailing view is that this is a content dispute. The sources in this subject very much disagree on the subject and the editors involved disagree about which sources should be given weight. I am going to place the page in question under DS 1RR restriction as well as a consensus required restriction. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 07:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Amanda A. Brant
The diffs above are a selection from a much broader range of talk-page contributions that demonstrate animus against the BLP subject and article edits that seem intended to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, at the expense of balance and encyclopedic tone. Given the toxicity of current discourse and the harassment experienced by the BLP subject (the police have advised her to install cctv at her home: [75]), we need a much more careful approach to contributions/editing on this particular article. In my view a logged warning is in order.
Discussion concerning Amanda A. BrantStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Amanda A. BrantStatement by Sideswipe9thWith respect to diffs 4 and 5, I believe they are an accurate representation of the sources used. The lead has been subject to much discussion over the last few days. Diffs 1-3 represent a difference of opinion between Nomoskedasticity and Amanda A. Brant, especially when it comes to choice of language but that is not unusual in this topic area. I would like to point out that Nomoskedasticity seems to have taken umbrage with Amanda in this reply over choice of language, and is currently being antagonistic against Newimpartial both over in this discussion and on Nomoskedasticity's talk page where they seem to be trying to bait an ANI report against them. Although I'm a relatively new editor, having reviewed the Gender and Sexuality remedy, I can't immediately see any behaviour from Amanda that strikes me as a breach. I would not recommend any action be taken against Amanda.
Statement by PaleoNeonateI look at the diffs but don't interpret them the way they are presented. For instance a removal claimed to be for IDONTLIKEIT reasons was only an editorial. Another argument above is that people or groups should be described as what they claim (outside of gender or religious affiliation), when WP relies on descriptions by reliable independent sources... —PaleoNeonate – 21:31, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by XOR'easterTo echo PaleoNeonate's comment above, I find the diffs presented to be much less problematic than they were made out to be. Describing a philosopher as "exceedingly obscure" based on their citation count is no worse than what we do at the Academics and educators AfD's every day, for example. One might dispute the evaluation, but it's a fair position to hold. Diffs 2 and 3 are sensible objections to splitting terminological hairs. Likewise, the edit to the lede seems broadly in compliance with MOS:LEDE, giving key points from the text that follows. Doubtlessly it could have been written in a different way, but it's not beyond the pale by any means. XOR'easter (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by CrossroadsThe edits above, and on the page in general, show a clear pattern of WP:Tendentious editing, WP:SOAPBOXing about the topic, and editing based on her own opinions; and I will present more diffs a little later today. For the record, this removal was not just an editorial; it also removed a letter from trans people who had supported Stock and which had been discussed in a normal article in that newspaper. It has since been restored with a reference to another newspaper that mentioned it. Crossroads -talk- 22:57, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Here are more diffs documenting this editor's problems with this article. Note that the editor has received the BLP DS notice as well. These are all at the same article in just the past few days. Article:
Talk page:
All the OP was asking for was a logged warning. Based on how much disruption there has been in such a short time, I'd be more inclined to favor a topic ban from Kathleen Stock, or from BLPs involved in transgender-related controversies. Crossroads -talk- 05:00, 17 October 2021 (UTC) added talk page diffs Crossroads -talk- 05:13, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Comment: I'm aware that people will try to nitpick some of the diffs shown. However, the point is to show a pattern, which is what WP:Tendentious editing is. And quite a few diffs can't be explained away. BLP does apply even when some editors don't like the person, and it is strict and applies to talk pages. Crossroads -talk- 05:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Regarding claims that there is "TERF-advocacy" going in this area, if that were so, then we would be seeing editors clamoring to add labels of praise to the lead of Stock's bio, disparaging her critics personally, claiming that the mainstream media were "anti-woman" (as they'd put it) for being insufficiently deferential to their POV, and advocating for the superiority of their equivalent of PinkNews. None of that is happening. Resisting POV pushing is not pushing an opposite POV. It is the duty of every editor. Crossroads -talk- 03:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by NewimpartialI agree with the Admin suggestion that 1RR on Kathleen Stock would be more appropriate than any sanctions directed at Amanda A. Brant. Newimpartial (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlishGenerally concur with Crossroads, other than diffs 4 and 5 might not be so problematic. This editor is clearly failing WP:NOT#ADVOCACY and WP:NPOV policies. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:13, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Comment by GoodDayLooks more like a content dispute, rather then an editorial behaviour problem. Recommend not enforcing. GoodDay (talk) 02:42, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Let's be careful, on how this case is handled, as it may create precedent for any future WP:AE reports, around this general topic. GoodDay (talk) 15:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by FirefangledfeathersI haven't reviewed all of Crossroads' diffs, but many seem like edits they don't like with the word "tendentious" tacked on. Taking the first diff as an example: the edit didn't just pull "transphobic fear mongering" out of nowhere. It's a direct quote from an open letter signed by about 600 philosophers. It's fair to debate whether that belongs in the lead; taking either position in that content dispute is not sanction-worthy. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Contribution by TewdarThis diff added a claim that "Stock received broad media attention in January 2021 when she was criticised for transphobia in a letter signed by 600 philosophers and other academics, who objected to her receiving an OBE." - as far as I can tell from both the open letter and the PinkNews article, the claim that "she was criticised for transphobia" is not supported by either source, unless I am missing something here. Perhaps we should all take more care to report what the cited sources actually say, especially since so many editors in this topic area usually pay so much attention to small details such as this. Tewdar (talk) 12:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Contribution by RolandROh come on, Tewdar! The open letter from hundreds of philosophers is actually headed "Philosophy Transphobia Letter". They write "Stock is best-known in recent years for her trans-exclusionary public and academic discourse on sex and gender, especially for opposition to [amendments to*] the UK Gender Recognition Act and the importance of self-identification to establish gender identity, and for advocating that trans women should be excluded from places like women’s locker rooms or shelters", and later "our concern is that some — apparently including the British government — have a tendency to mistake transphobic fearmongering for valuable scholarship". This is quite clearly describing Stock's arguments as "transphobic fearmongering". RolandR (talk) 12:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by AquillionI will point out that SMcCandlish's statement that These sorts of things are only likely to be resolved either a willingness to broadly assume good faith for everyone in the topic area, or, more likely, by a more comprehensive ArbCom case to examine the long-term behavior of everyone involved. If multiple editors believe that the entire topic area is swarming with one-sided POV-pushing, and are consistently editing from that perspective, then reaching compromises on even simple content disputes like these is going to be very difficult. We need a venue where anyone who thinks that can either make their case once and for all or be forced to drop it (or leave the topic area themselves, if they seem unable to). In my view, though, these constant vague and sweeping accusations of bad faith, more than anything else, are what makes this particular topic area so wrought, since it not only disrupts the consensus-building process but encourages others who see it to take the same strident battleground stance in a way that makes collaborative editing extremely difficult. --Aquillion (talk) 05:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Amanda A. Brant
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Nableezy
The report is overstated. What seems to have taken place is fairly normal, albeit sometimes heated, editing process. The threats by Nableezy aren't really threats, although they are problematic. The AFD was handled properly. While behavior (by all) might be less than ideal, some heat is expected in contentious areas, and is tolerated by the community. While I don't see actual WP:hounding by Free1Soul going on yet, the events thus far could be considered as part of a pattern if they continued with this intensity. I don't see a need for any AE sanctions at this point. What is needed is more talk page discussion, a little less editing, and actual consensus building rather than bickering. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
I noticed Nableezy yesterday when I was going over AFDs related to Israel. I noticed they nominated Yoav Sarig in a disruptive manner (obvious notability) at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yoav Sarig. This nomination isn't normal disruption because I discovered from searching that Nableezy has a COI, a long feud, with the subject. Google: Nableezy Yoav Sarig, and you will see the COI yourself. Because of the disruption at Sarig, I looked at Nableezy's contributions and saw that he was engaging in mass-changes to long standing, stable, maps in several articles in or near the Golan. Nableezy was continuing these changes even after he was challenged by a user (17:07) at Caesarea Philippi and a discussion was started (17:10) making similar changes to more articles to 8 additional articles ([98], [99], [100], [101], [102], [103], [104], [105]) This continuation is a Wikipedia:Fait accompli problem. In one case in these mass changes Nableezy introduced a hoax, as Hippos was not controlled by Syria before 1967, it was in Israeli territory (the Syrian army briefly controlled it after their invasion in 1948, but they were pushed back on the night between 17-18 July 1948). I then reverted Nableezy's mass change to 17 articles. Nableezy immediately threatened me and instead of taking the threat back said: "Is it a threat? No, it is a promise". I later discovered Nableezy posted nearly identical threats on other users pages:
Nableezy then reverted all of my reverts of their new map. I asked Nableezy to self-revert their 17 changes because I felt they broke 1RR. After some discussion Nableezy said they would self revert but then changed course saying they Have not found a single article where a map was added within the last year, making all of those edits. If any admin says those are reverts I will gladly self-revert. This statement is false, while many of these maps are very long standing, a decade even, there are at least two articles in which the content was added within the last year:
From their talk page, Nableezy recently broke 1RR also on Israel. On 14:59, 12 October 2021 they restored text similar to this reverted edit to a different location. They then reverted again on 17:53, 12 October 2021
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyThere should be a WP:BOOMERANG here. The above user followed me to an AFD and then to some 18 other pages to edit in opposition to me. See the timeline here. I was not threatening anybody, I simply reminded them of the golden rule, and it takes a level of self-confidence that astounds me to complain about a "threat" to hound after having already hounding me. Please note that the user edited the AFD prior to it being listed in the Israel related discussions (user edit 15:29, 15 October 2021, added to Israel list 15:56). The claim that the user was going through Israel-related deletions is as bogus as the rest of the report. He or she got there through hounding my contributions. And then continued to hound me across a range of other articles. ProcrastinatingReader, I would characterize your editing at Sheikh Jarrah dispute in much the same manner, though since we still have rules on making accusations without evidence Ill just invite you to my talk page if youd like to discuss that further. If somebody would like me to answer some diffs of mine from there, sure. As far as the report here, and the laughable claim of a "hoax", it seems somewhat dishonest not to note this edit less than an hour later. I replaced a non-NPOV map with a NPOV map. When checking through them later I saw that neither map fit. And I myself corrected it. And as I told the user earlier, if any admin says that my initial edits changing the maps were reverts and not edits I will gladly self-revert. But a user tendentiously hounding me across a range of articles with edit summaries that quite literally were simply WP:JDLI (prev better was all the discussion provided for the reverts) was not something I intended to give much attention to. As far as the claim that I have some COI with Yoav Sarig, having written that the author of the article has a COI some 10 years ago is not a "grudge" or a COI, and that claim is as specious as the rest of the report and many of the comments below. And for the record, I have never once made any serious claim about Yoav Sarig anywhere. Saying that the person who wrote an article about you has a COI is not an attack on you. It may be a serious claim against the editor who created the article, but certainly not against the subject. As far as shows contempt to BRD, I am unaware of any requirement to demonstrate obeisance to WP:BRD. Which is not a requirement on Wikipedia or this topic area. And if people would just click the links they seem so confident in posting, they will see that it is indeed not a requirement on Wikipedia. As far as my language in that discussion, I don't think a general discussion about editing philosophies, even if touching on editing in the topic area, is really within the topic area, and we've generally been accepting of users speaking frankly with each other on their own user talk pages. I dont believe I broke the 1RR at Israel. Selfstudier's edit was removed due to it not belonging in the lead. I added material to the body. And when that was reverted with a claim that ONUS had not been met for the lead I reverted. Once. nableezy - 00:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
To be clear, I don't think the 17 reverts are hounding, I think the going to the AFD and then the Talk:Caesarea Philippi, and then starting that series was hounding. You can oppose all my edits if you see one in a pattern, thats fair. But just getting there to begin with, in this instance, was hounding. nableezy - 04:37, 17 October 2021 (UTC) ProcrastinatingReader, I agree that people can have legitimate reasons for opposing my edits. I dont think that users that maintain a series of no consensus decisions requires one to drop the stick in correcting NPOV issues (note that position was not adopted in the RFC, the opposite in fact), or editors maintaining that what several sources flat out say is biased as "neutral" is one of them (such as your repeated assertions in the face of RS against it). There are indeed many valid reasons to oppose my edits. Ones such as "but there haven't been any evictions" in an article that covers several past evictions is however not one of them. But the sources are wrong (which Id charecterize your argument in the section on Palestinian v Jewish claims, including by distorting my argument) and raising hypotheticals that the sources say dont exist to try to negate their description of the laws, or making their vote conditional on ultimatums. Im bumping up on the word limit here, but if I need to respond to any diffs there in detail somebody lmk. nableezy - 10:07, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammalI was going to post a slightly different version of this on one of your user pages, having noticed the dispute after the discussion on El C's page, but it appears I was too slow. First, in regards to Free1Soul: I would agree with Nableezy that there may be an issue of WP:HOUNDING here. Free1Soul justifies their activity by explaining that it was in response to what they saw as a disruptive filing, but I would consider searching through a users contribution log searching for general issues to be an overreaction in such a case, particularly where the two editors have interacted in the past and even more so when the two editors have a general difference of opinion in regards to a contentious area; I can see no good coming from such a search. My original suggestion was going to be that that Free1Soul avoids looking at Nableezy's contribution page, but given we are here, and how quick they were to declare an apparently good faith edit to be a "hoax", perhaps a one way interaction block would be in order, at least for a short time? Second, in regards to Nableezy. The threat to hound Free1Soul, despite the extenuating circumstances, is in my opinion problematic; there are ways to deal with problematic behaviour, and resorting to problematic behaviour is not one of them. I would suggest to Nableezy that they withdraw that comment, and commit to using the proper channels to resolve these issues. I would also note that I would agree with Free1Soul that 1RR may have been breached here; Nableezy's initial edits to change the map removed the map that was previously there, making it, in my opinion, a reversion - though some of these initial reverts are 1RR exempt as the map was added by editors not permitted to edit the area under 30/500. With all that said, I can see how the question of whether they are reverts or not would be a little ambiguous in this case, so perhaps the appropriate remedy would be to self-revert now? Apologies to all if I have done this incorrectly; I am unsure of the proper protocol here. BilledMammal (talk) 19:15, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by FirefangledfeathersNableezy's intital edits, changing the maps, definitely do not count as reverts. I get the need for extra caution in this topic area, but considering any bold change to be a revert would inhibit productive editing. 19:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by EggishornThis appears to be a vexatious filing. The AfD nomination was very defensible in that the state of the article at the time of the nomination was one in which the sourcing was almost entirely to primary sources or passing mentions and the importance of the one academic prize mentioned was not clear. When the original author appeared to clarify the status, Nableezy withdrew their nomination and closed the AfD themselves, which can hardly be evidence of long-term enmity. The second diff also shows entirely reasonable behavior by Nableezy, in that the challenge to their edit was an appeal to personal expertise instead of actual sourcing. The series of edit edits next mentioned are not evidence of anything other than the OP hunting down edits to revert. There are no edit summaries that give any reason why the edits are incorrect. Calling the addition to a map of a pushpin a "Hoax" is truly mind-boggling. Even the "threat" is little more than what I'd expect many frustrated users to post. It is clear from the above that this is a poor attempt by an inexperienced editor with a particular POV to weaponize AE against a perceived opponent. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by 11Fox11The report above is badly formatted, however it raises three serious problems:
This Nableezy post from two days ago shows contempt to BRD and is attacking another editor ("somebody who continues to make shit up"). In my opinion Nableezy engaging in similar threats against three separate users he disagrees with in the last couple of months is the most serious aspect here. 11Fox11 (talk) 20:01, 16 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by ProcrastinatingReaderLacking the time to read this complaint in detail, several of the diffs do show nableezy increasing tension in the topic area, e.g. [111]. Anecdotally I recall nableezy's approch at Talk:Sheikh Jarrah controversy, which I'd categorise as rather disruptive (and some other editors felt the same). Earlier this year, the editor received a logged warning to The problems in this topic area aren't limited to nableezy, but their current approach to dispute resolution is imho a contributing factor to the toxicity in it. I think ArbCom should revisit this topic area and some of its most active participants (on both ideological sides) in a full case. But failing that, at some point resolving these AE reports is going to require action rather than warnings. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:03, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by AquillionUnless the situation is very obvious, the initial place to raise COI isssues is WP:COIN, not WP:AE; and I definitely don't think that a single forum post seven years ago would qualify as sufficient to rush straight to AE (nor is it likely to be enough to convince WP:COIN, but that's at least the place to start.) I'm also skeptical about labeling the AFD nomination as disruptive - I think it was obviously a mistake, but there's a huge gap between a nomination being a bad call and being disruptive enough to require sanctions; sanctioning people simply for being wrong risks having a chilling effect that would discourage people from raising potentially-controversial issues that do need to be considered. Maybe if it was part of a pattern of obviously-unjustified nominations, but just one is silly. The same goes for some of the other issues - making a single mistake regarding an area with an extremely complicated history is obviously not sanctionable. Likewise, 1RR issues are better handled at WP:3RRN since they are generally straightforward; if you think it's part of a bigger pattern, but there's a debate over whether it's actually a 1RR violation, it saves time for everyone if you take it to 3RRN first, settle that, then come to AE with that conclusion in hand. That said, I don't think it's reasonable to call what they did an 1RR violation (I have pointed out before that we need to settle the "any edit to existing material could be interpreted as a revert of someone or something" problem; with the 3RR it is not a big deal, but it is a serious problem on articles with 1RR restrictions.) That said just because they were allowed to do that doesn't mean they should have; revert-warring across 17 articles is not ideal, and ideally mass-edits should be discussed in advance if they're likely to be controversial. But it's not a "rush straight to AE" issue, either, and while you were likewise allowed to mass-revert a mass-edit across multiple articles for WP:BRD / WP:FAIT reasons, it would still have been better to discuss and settle it first to avoid situations like this. Though I should point out (since nableezy has brought it up) that while I don't think they should have rushed to do it, I do not think free1Soul can reasonably be accused of WP:HOUNDing. As that policy says, Statement by GizzyCatBella
Singling out of one editor and follow them to 17 articles to revert their contribution is a key component of WP:HOUNDING. Are you aware of that Free1Soul?
Hoax is a planned introduction of something made up to trick others into believing is true. How do you know that was Nablezny's intention Free1Soul? I could go on with more problematic features written by the filer but don't have time for it right now. Nevertheless, I'll be surprised if this report goes anywhere since it seems to be an attempt to weaponize AE. However WP:BOOMERANG on the filer would not surprise me at all. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Geshem Bracha@Euryalus and Bishonen:, after I reverted Nableezy on Chorazin they place this warning/threat on my talk page. They immediately, 1 minute later, demonstrated that they would carry out their threat by reverting me at Capernaum which they never edited before. This religious/archaeological site is located within Israel since its founding. Their statement on my page was not just words, it was followed by immediate action on their part on an article they never touched, it is impossible to see how they reached Capernaum without following me.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 05:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by SelfstudierArriving late when all has been said. Still, I will say it's poor form that a filing at this board is seen as an opportunity to rake up anything at all from time past that could conceivably be cast as misfeasance, Sheikh Jarrah for instance, if there was a case to answer, doubtful at best, why bring it here and now and not at the time? Selfstudier (talk) 11:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000If the OP has anything to say about the location of Hippos, surely the article talk page would be the place to say it. Actually the place is located in the Israel-Syria DMZ exactly as the article says. The Capernaum issue is of whether an ancient village should be called in Israel if it ceased to exist long before Israel was founded. Nableezy thinks it would be anachronistic, which is not the only position that could be taken but it is reasonable to take it. Nableezy's flexibility is demonstrated by his recent compromise "in what is now the territory of modern Israel" in a parallel situation a few days ago [120]. Portraying this as a sanctionable offence is risible. Zerotalk 11:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Comment by GoodDayFWIW, I repaired the 'messed up' birth/death dates intro to the said-article that passed its AFD. GoodDay (talk) 19:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Result concerning Nableezy
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Dhawangupta
This matter is primarily a content dispute. Parties are advised to utilize dispute resolution processes such as a request for comment if regular discussion has come to an impasse. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dhawangupta
They are certainly not the only editor with similar conduct at Talk:Breast Tax (the entire talk page is filled with persistent demands to declare it a hoax) but this seems to be a long established pattern with them. The date and time in the above diffs are in IST. Tayi Arajakate Talk 19:13, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DhawanguptaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Dhawangupta
Statement by (username)Result concerning Dhawangupta
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Spartan7W
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Spartan7W
Spartan7W has emerged from relative inactivity to make an edit to the article of a Biden administration official. The edit in question also happens to violate MOS:DEADNAME (and past consensus at the page on the same). I've left them a gender discretionary sanctions notice as well, so they are aware going forward. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 21:58, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Spartan7WStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Spartan7W
Given the fact that the software literally prevents me from pressing the edit button on the Donald Trump article, which is the one where your ridiculous ban in question came from, it would be a reasonable expectation of mine to assume that the ban would prevent editing of other politics articles under the same definition. Spartan7W § 14:16, 20 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by NewimpartialThe article already contained Statement by Sideswipe9thGiven that in the diff in question, Spartan7W deadnamed a trans woman, is this not also a violation of WP:ARBGSDS? If the resolution is not for a permanent ban, would a TBAN for Gender and Sexuality also be warranted? Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:43, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Spartan7W
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Hodgdon's secret garden
Hodgdon's secret garden is indefinitely topic-banned from the AP2 topic area, broadly construed. clpo13(talk) 17:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Hodgdon's secret garden
Unnecessarily personalizing debates (including personal attacks) at Talk:Woke:
N/A
Firefangledfeathers politely asked HSG on their user talk page to stop accusing people of enforcing some Orwellian "editing regime", but HSG has been unable to let it go. They have kept casting aspersions, accusing others of hidden biases (somehow simultaneously in favor of and against "progressive"/"woke" ideas), ad hoc (read: unprincipled) reasoning, and an "ideological litmus test" when the discussion doesn't go their way. Since HSG "disinvited" me from editing their user talk page, I don't see another option for addressing this kind of disruption but to file an AE request. (See earlier discussion here.) I'm leaving aside for now HSG's apparent inability to write clearly or concisely in discussions (seen above), and their habit of filling talk pages with many quotations from copyrighted sources in lieu of proposals for improvement (example diff).
Discussion concerning Hodgdon's secret gardenStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Hodgdon's secret gardenOne quick correction to the filing, however: Something I wrote on the article's Talkpage today I believe is mischaracterized. I actually try very hard to consider things with nuance and I certainly didn't intend for my words -- where I said opposing arguments seemed ad hoc to me -- to imply that I believed them to be lacking, bl*ck-and-wh*te, in principles [sic]; rather, what I meant to convey was that something proposed's gets turned down for complaint X yet after that's successfully addressed, previously-unmentioned complaint Y appears. Something of this nature, while improvisational, doesn't imply for me lack of principles so much as admirably searching for an applicable editorial principle bit by bit rather than having a fully-formed one at the ready.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 02:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Firefangledfeathers re HSGI'll be able to elaborate more another day, but I want to say now that I corroborate the main points of Sangdeboeuf's report. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonateAlthough not a new editor, I was unfamiliar with them (as far as I know the editor has edited in the past with a previous long-abandoned account and some IP addresses and I don't think they were banned, the current account is ~11 years old). I looked at two recent talk pages, Talk:Woke and its latest archive, Talk:Woke/Archive 5. I am somewhat surprised for this apparently experienced editor to regularly ascribe policies to the opinions of particular editors. NorthBySouthBaranof and Sangdeboeuf have to explain the basis of the policy about independent reliable sources and original research to aspersions like:
I note that the effort on Woke has been going on for months, it seems (and all other talk archives have requests). I think that there's also some good faith and effort involved, but a failure to acknowledge when the number of requests or attempts to twist sources and arguments with synthesis to present a particular point of view becomes unreasonable. This may be when impatience shows with statements that question the motives of other editors, rather than moving-on... —PaleoNeonate – 19:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by 力My sense is that HSG is trying to be helpful at Woke, but has lost the plot in continually suggesting that every mention of the term be added to the article, and now the content disputes have turned into personalized disputes. I endorse Bishonen's page ban. I'm not familiar with this editor otherwise (and most of their edits in the past 6 months are at Woke or Talk:Woke), I don't see cause for a full AP2 block here. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:06, 21 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Hodgdon's secret garden
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Nableezy (part II)
Complaint has been withdrawn. BilledMammal is warned that groundless or vexatious complaints may result in blocks or other sanctions. Sockpuppet claims are best raised at SPI. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Nableezy
I believe this is the appropriate location for this, being personal attacks in the ARBPIA area, as well as the fact that the nature and timing of the discussion is likely to dissolve into a mess at ANI, but apologies if I am incorrect. Nableezy is a prolific sockpuppet hunter, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with how they do it. Rather than carefully gathering evidence to present at SPI, their initial steps are to throw out accusations or pointed insinuations, contributing to an WP:UNCIVIL environment in an already contentious area. I won't cover them throwing out accusations, as that has been recently discussed in the ZScarpia Case, but I will cover their insinuations. In particular, this was prompted by their recent post on my talk page of This is a very pointed question, particularly if one is even vaguely aware of their history, one that there will only ever be one answer to, and one that casts aspersions on the editor it is aimed at, particularly as it is presented without evidence. This interpretation is not a fringe one; many editors consider it an accusation and violation of WP:ASPERSIONS, with diff #3 and diff #4 serving as examples of this. Attempts to voluntarily correct this behaviour has failed; in diff #2 they show that they consider there to be nothing wrong with their approach and if it is appropriate to request remedies I would ask that when it comes to directly or indirectly accusing editors of sockpuppetry in the ARBPIA area that Nableezy is required to do so only at SPI.
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyThere is in fact more than one answer to the question, a question I think reasonable when this is somebody's first edit. Among the possible answers is yes I used to edit under account X, or I used to edit as an IP and became familiar with the processes and templates, or "no". Asking somebody, one time, a question that allows them to give a reasonable explanation so that I might stop spending my time on something that has some other reasonable explanation is not an "aspersion", it is not an "accusation", and it is not prohibited by any rule or policy. Also not entirely sure how a user with 2436 edits knows so much about my history with socks, but I suppose that is another curiosity I can spend time trying to figure out. nableezy - 13:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Shrike@Seraphimblade: Because all those users are operate mainly in the area and all the aspirations were made regarding the edits in the area --Shrike (talk) 10:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierIt all started at Talk:Wehda Street airstrikes#Recent reverts and then "spread" to Talk:2006 Qana airstrike#NPOV and massacre as well as one or two other articles and is essentially an arcane discussion about whether article altnames (massacres in these cases) should be categorized in addition to main article titles. Then one thing has led to another but this issue shouldn't be here at all, really.Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 24 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000Asking a question is not casting aspersions. That's just silly. In fact, WP:Sockpuppetry/Notes for the accuser recommends it: " Comment by GoodDayIf one believes that an editor is a sock of another editor. Then he/she should open up an SPI. GoodDay (talk) 17:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer MarekWaitaminute, does anyone here sincerely believe that this BilledMammal (do platypus quack?) is not a sock? Volunteer Marek 18:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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