So is that saying that ghosts can’t be part of the minyan or say Kaddish for themselves then?

Yup. Certainly the dead aren’t obligated in mitzvot and as such probably cannot be counted in a minyan. However, if there is a minyan present, halachically speaking, I can’t think of a reason why they couldn’t be allowed to say kaddish for someone else (as one’s self is not one of the people one can mourn for). Save, of course, for the reasoning above - לא המיתים יהללו יה (”The dead cannot praise God” Ps. 115:17″). 

I admitted though that that is a conceptual argument and probably not a halacha. And while the Yerushalmi does give that reasoning for why a lulav should not be dry and withered, the Bavli say something different - a lulav should not be withered because that is not beautiful. And who’s to say ghosts cannot be beautiful?

TLDLR: ghosts cannot count in a minyan and they cannot say kaddish for themselves. 

I like how many Jewish SFF posts I am finding this morning yes yes

“Can I say kaddish for myself if I’m a ghost” I love this.

Well the whole story of Kaddish is that a ghost needed OTHER people to say prayers to put him to rest. QED ghosts cannot say Kaddish for themselves.

that does not follow, ten people are needed for a minyan, so clearly as single ghost cannot say the kaddish alone.

well they also can’t say kaddish IN a minyan either. 

Premise: story of the origin of Kaddish is about a ghost whose soul is restless. A rabbi discovers the ghost and then tracks down the ghost’s son (who is alive) in order to teach him Jewishly and prepare him to pray on behalf of the his father’s spirit *because* the ghost cannot do so. This also illustrates why a group or community is needed for a restless spirit to move on.

SO:

A.) the Kaddish is said to put spirits to rest
B.) the restlessness of a spirit is because of a lack of resolution with relationships the living community
C.) resolution of issues with relationships cannot happen one-sided (i.e. atonement/reconciliation cannot be solved by just the individual alone) as illustrated by the fact that the ghost could not move on without assistance 
D.) a minyan is a representation of the community

Therefore: 1.) a minyan is required to say Kaddish

E.) a minyan requires living adults
F.) a ghost, by nature, is not alive

Therefore: 2.) a ghost cannot be in a minyan

1 and 2 are both true statements.

QED: a ghost cannot say Kaddish for themselves alone, nor can they count in a minyan saying kaddish on their behalf. 

Premise E is the whole discussion, though, you slipped your conclusion in as a premise. The core of the matter is “does a minyan require living adult Jews or just adult Jews?”

Can’t mourn yourself, from above is also a questionable premise in a word of ghosts.

The fact that I’m sitting here working prepositional logic to find these things is one of my favorite things about being Jewish.

New question, if a child dies before bar mitzvah (**me stringing up hamsa to ward off the evil eye on that statement**) when the ghost has ‘aged’ the appropriate number of years, can he be counted? (If we are taking, yes a ghost can be counted in a minyan, of course) 

Age of majority is based on physical displays of puberty (body hair and secondary sexual characteristics) so I’m going to go with no. The ghost doesn’t age.

well… technically all ghosts won’t have physical displays of puberty? since they’re incorporeal? 
(also what is the source for that, not that I’m doubting you, just I haven’t heard of that before.) 

Gonna split my response in two because you bring up two good points.

1. Exactly - no ghosts will manifest signs of aging or puberty, so if they are in their own category of types of beings (as I assumed they were), they are not eligible to become bnei mitzvah. 

It’s true that nowadays we don’t wait for certain physical signs to manifest for someone to reach their age of majority. We’ve set a certain age instead. But since it’s based on that rubric, with the assumptions that twelve year old girls and thirteen year old boys will manifest certain traits (there are considerations taken if they don’t), it would seem that ghosts wouldn’t be counted in such circumstances. 

2. Yes, always ask me for sources! I hate that people seem to assume that a request for sources is a challenge. I should have provided them from the get go.

See Rambam’s Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut, Chapter 2. Itself based on passages in the Gemara in Ketubot, Yevamot, and Kiddushin, depending on which particular halacha he’s codifying.

That is part of why I don’t feel my “E” statement is slipping my conclusion as a premise @janothar. We know a minyan can be formed by adults. We must conclude that a minyan is formed by the living. 

1.  Adulthood is a stage of life, not death. A ghost’s age cannot be determined by normal physical life stages as they are incorporeal. (other physical attributes needed to meet the requirements for a minyan…decompose, shall we say.)
   
2. From a Burial Society’s website: “A person who is very close to death is called a gosses. A gosses is still a member of the community and is to be accorded full respect, provided with every comfort, and may be counted for a minyan.“  therefore implying that by contrast, the dead cannot count in a minyan. (Maimoides tells us to wait twenty minutes to make sure a gosses isn’t merely in a “swoon” before declaring they are dead due to lack of respiration. Respiration is mentioned in Yoma as a necessary quality of being considered alive.)  
3. A sleeping man cannot count in a minyan, (unless you side with leniency). The dead, we are told, are sleeping in the “dust of the earth” - which is important. “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” (Daniel 12:2). Ergo the dead cannot count.  
4. In the Talmud R. Yochanan expounds upon the verse, “Among the dead I am free (Ps. 88:6), explaining the dead are free of ritual and religious obligation because they are dead. So we know the dead are not obligated to say Kaddish. By extension, it makes sense to say the dead cannot say Kaddish, because they are dead, which is a state of freedom from fulfilling such obligations. 
5. Also someone mentioned that verse that the dead do not praise hashem, which if what a minyan is for anyways. 
6. The primary obligation of reciting kaddish itself is on the deceased’s son (or children), and therefore a ghost ought to have their children recite on their behalf anyways. And so the ghost should not recite for themselves. 
7. Although Torah may count in a minyan, it is only in addition to nine (assumed) living adults:
   
    

Berakhot 47b 19. 

This is referenced in a book, apparently: 

“I still have the overwhelming impression, though, that when the downstairs was rennovated, all the ghosts departed as well. […] Rabbi Singer’s practice of opening up the ark to count the Torah scroll as the tenth for the minyan, threatening at least once to walk out so that there wouldn’t even be nine living men in the room, let alone ten…” 

“I like to think of their ghosts as being available to make up the minyan, but no one thinks that’s how Jewish law works, not even among the minority of us who continue to accept the custom of counting the Torah scroll.”

(Emphasis mine.) Apparently from a book called Mornings at the Stanton Street Shul: A Summer on the Lower East Side. I feel being alive is a fair requirement for being in a minyan. 

It is probably more reasonable to have the ghost rely on a Torah scroll to count as the tenth person in a minyan anyways. Also because the Talmud says someone who is “crazed” cannot count in a minyan, all nine other people must have first agreed that there even is a ghost to count or not, and agree that no one is hallucinating or under mental distress for any reason. 

I see your argument, and now concede that you’ve backed up E, at least on the issue of a minyan must consist of living adults, though I will take issue with statement 1, because adulthood may be a stage of life, but there is absolutely folklore (which I can’t cite at the moment, at work) which mentions child ghosts, therefore there must also be adult ghosts.

Now, here’s a fun bit I had forgotten earlier (I again can’t cite exactly, but it’s references in Jewish Magic and Superstition by Tractenberg) ghosts CAN have a minyan…and likely it must be entirely ghosts. There are traditional (Ashkenazi, at least) stories of ghosts annoying the living because they were buried with improper shrouds and specifically complaining that they are embarrassed to go to services with the other ghosts. (who presumably are not bothering the living, just hanging around.)

So, yeah, either there can be 100% ghostly minyans, or ghosts really couldn’t give a shit what the rules are, they’re going to go to services either way…which is itself a properly Jewish response to dying.

@ameliarating why am I not already following you

*goes to fix that*

So, if ghosts can form a minyan, and , chas vechalila, a whole family dies together. can the parents have their children say Kadish on them in a minyan of ghosts?

As amazing as those stories sound, and I completely believe they were told seriously, I don’t believe they can form the basis of a halachic argument. Jewish folklore is always full of things that are technically not allowed.

So I do not believe that ghosts count in their own minyanim. However, if they were to start counting themselves in both mixed and ghost onnly minyanim, I don’t think we should protest and in fact, we should search for a limmud zchut.

@antongarou you tagged this with: #a ghost minyan makes sense#given that ten women can form a minyan#but five women and five men are not a minyan

I’m pretty sure that according to those who hold that women are not counted in minyanim, ten women are not a minyan either.