Booman Tribune

Hate Crimes: My Response to Booman

by Steven D
Wed May 9th, 2007 at 10:53:18 AM EST

Booman has written that he considers the "hate crime" bill to establish special protections to individuals who are covered by it. To be specific, this is what he had to say in his last post entitled Chris Carney and Hate Crimes:

[I]t was a bill to set sentencing standards based on the perceived motivations of people that commit violent crime. I have never supported doing that. And I don't question Carney's sincerity in opposing the legislation for the reasons that he has stated. [...]

During sentencing, a judge and a jury should be able to consider mitigating and aggravating factors. Beating someone up just because they are gay should be a valid aggravating factor in sentencing. But it shouldn't be a separate charge. That introduces too much ambiguity into the judicial process. [...]

If someone beats me up because they hate white men, and I can demonstrate that that was their primary motivation in assaulting me, then that should be an aggravating factor in sentencing. But no one should be more protected than me just because they are more likely to be a victim of a hate crime. A hate crime is a hate crime.

Booman, with all due respect, I must disagree with you regarding your view of hate crimes laws as expressed in the above quote. And I'm writing this post to explain why I think you are wrong about the need for hate crimes laws in America.

(cont.)

It's a common fallacy (and a common right wing talking point) that hate crimes create "special protections" for certain classes of people that the law doesn't provide in other circumstances to the rest of us. It is also a fallacy that a hate crime punishes one's thoughts (though I don't know for certain if that is one of your specific objections to hate crimes legislation, that argument is also one which is a frequent right wing talking point against hate crimes laws). Let's consider these objections up close and personal to see if they "hold any water."

The "Special Protections" Fallacy

A hate crime is not a "special protection" for certain individuals and not others. Anyone can be the victim of a hate crime. What is a hate crime" then?

A hate crime is simply another class of crime, where we consider the defendant's motive in choosing his victim based on some specific characteristic, real or imagined, to be so heinous that it justifies an increased level of punishment. And the victim need not actually possess that specific characteristic so long as the defendant chooses him or her based on the intent to harm someone with that characteristic.

For example, let's say you are Jack Lemmon in Some Like it Hot, a man posing as a woman. Let's say a man in a bar remarks that he bears a specific animus against women, and has stated numerous times that the next "bitch" he sees is going to "Get what's coming to her." Whereupon, he comes across you prancing down the street in high heels, a dress and lots and lots of make-up, pretending to be "Daphne" a saxophone player in an all girl band. Whereupon our deluded criminal pulls out his gun, screams "take this you stupid fucking whore" and shoots you in the arm. After the fact our misogynistic perpetrator discovers much to his chagrin that you are not really a woman. He is deeply remorseful and apologizes profusely, stating that if he had known you were a man he never would have fired his pistol at you.

Nonetheless, he can be charged with committing a hate crime, provided that gender is one of the characteristics included in the hate crimes law on the books where you and he reside. And you, as his victim, have received no special protection, when the prosecutor decides to charge him with a hate crime. Because the hate crime law doesn't provide you, specifically, with any protections. It simply provides that someone who commits certain crimes against a person based on his animus toward individuals with certain characteristics such as gender, race, religion or sexual orientation can be charged with a "hate crime," i.e., one that bears a more severe punishment.

I'll explain later why hate crimes legislation is necessary, but for now just take away this one salient fact: Hate Crimes laws don't provide "special protections" to certain people, they simply enhance the level of punishment meted out to convicted criminals, provided the prosecutor can demonstrate these criminals acted with a very specific intent to harm their victims. Which brings me to my next point.

Hate Crimes Laws Do Not Create Ambiguity

You say that hate crimes add a layer of ambiguity to the judicial process. However, you then claim that it is valid for a court to consider the defendant's motivations in choosing to commit a crime against a gay man, for example, because he was gay, as an aggravating factor in sentencing. However, that is precisely what a hate crimes law does. Indeed, it provides that the jury in a hate crimes trial must determine whether the defendant acted with a specific intent to commit a hate crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Far from adding ambiguity, it adds a layer of clarity for both the judge and the jury. If the prosecutor can't satisfy that very high standard of proof regarding the defendant's intent, then he can't convict him or her of any hate crime.

Speaking of intent, by the way ....

Hate Crimes are Not "Thought Crimes"

A frequent argument that conservatives and other opponents of hate crimes laws make is that these laws punish someone for their thoughts. This is simply not true. They punish someone who has intentionally committed a crime with the motive to harm an individual or individuals who the defendant believes have or share a common characteristic such as race, ethnicity, gender, religious preference or sexual orientation. I've underlined the word "motive" above, because it is crucial to understand that under the law we often make distinctions on what crime to charge a defendant based upon his or her motive in committing that crime.

In other words, we consider a defendant's "perceived motivations" ( to use your phrase) all the time in determining the type of the crime with which to charge a defendant. For example, a man who shoots at a dog in his yard but kills a child in the house across the street because he is a poor shot may be tried for involuntary manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide, rather than 1st degree murder because his intention was not to kill another human being, but to kill the dog. On the other hand, the same man who plans for weeks to murder his wife, and hires another person to commit the murder on his behalf, is generally charged with pre-medititated murder (i.e., "Murder in the 1st Degree"), even if he did not wield the gun or knife that killed her himself. Someone who commits murder in the first degree is generally subject to a more severe punishment than someone who committed involuntary manslaughter, even though in both cases someone has been killed, and we hold the killer liable for that death.

A defendant's intent matters a great deal in most criminal prosecutions. Indeed, to prove a hate crime, the prosecutor must not only prove intent to commit the crime, but also that the defendant's intent to commit that crime was specifically based upon a motive to harm people with a specific distinguishing characteristic. That's a much higher standard to meet than simply showing they intended to commit a violent crime.

In any event, motive is important in most crimes because we have made it a public policy that people who unintentionally act in ways which harm or injure others, or who do not understand that their actions could lead to such harm, generally should not be punished by the law to the same extent (if at all) as those who do intend to cause harm, should be. Which brings me to my final point.

The Justification for Hate Crimes Laws

Why have hate crimes laws? The reason is simple. As a matter of public policy. What do I mean by that? Let me explain. Almost every law originates to serve a particular public policy (or two or three), even those that have been with us for generations. We punish murderers and thieves, for example, because it was decided that society had an interest in lowering the levels of societal violence that would otherwise arise if rulers and governments did not take action to mete out justice to those who "break the peace."

By offering people a system of retributive justice for acts of violence against persons or their property, society limits the circumstances in which individuals seek vengeance or pursue vigilantism on their own against those who have harmed them or their families. Thus, such laws reduce vendettas, feuds and mob violence in pursuit of "justice" for alleged wrongs by institutionalizing the process by which we punish those who commit such offenses, and by authorizing the government to carry out that process. If people accept that their government has a system to fairly punish those that have committed crimes, they are much less likely to seek justice outside that system.

That's one example of a public policy which the criminal justice system serves. But it is far from the only one. Each law that we pass which creates a specific class of crimes has a purpose which seeks to benefit society at large.

I'll give you another example. In most states, you can be prosecuted for "felony murder," even if you had no intention that one of your co-defendants was going to kill someone, or that anyone was going to die. All you need is the intention to commit an underlying felony (let's say robbery) during the commission of which someone dies. This can include someone who suffers a heart attack when you rob a bank even if your gun or the gun of your accomplice is not loaded.

Why would we have such a law? It seems a bit unfair to charge someone with murder if they weren't the "trigger puller" so to speak. Well, there are several reasons. One reason is that society wants to limit, to the extent possible, crimes where violence against individuals could occur. If potential criminals are aware that committing armed robbery could lead to a murder charge if something "goes wrong" perhaps they will be less likely to engage in such conduct. In that instance, the public policy being served is one of deterrence.

There are other policies the felony murder rule serves, however. One is practical. The risk of being charged with "felony murder" can often be used by prosecutors to obtain one defendant's agreement to testify against another defendant. It can also be used to prevent the "finger pointing" defense. That is, if each defendant is guilty of murder for any death arising from the commission of a felony than no one can claim that they aren't guilty by pointing the finger at their co-defendants, naming them as the ones who did the killing. This makes it easier to ensure that someone is punished for the murder, rather than all going free because the prosecutor can't prove which specific person committed the act that killed the victim.

So what public policies are served by hate crimes laws? Well, I can think of several. To begin, a hate crime is not directed merely at the individual victim who suffers from the crime. The Klu Klux Klan didn't burn crosses on the lawns, or throw Molotov cocktails through the windows, of various homes merely to threaten and intimidate the specific individuals that resided there. The Klan's actions threatened and intimidated the entire community of African Americans who lived in the areas where these incidents took place. In much the same fashion, random beatings of gays, lesbians and/or trans-gendered persons, intimidate and threaten all members of the LGBT community where such violence occurs.

When communities are threatened with violence, violence for which the justice system provides no relief, how do they react to those threats and assaults? One possible response is to lash out at those who are perceived to be attacking the members of the victimized community, which in turn can lead to further violence by that group. Hate crimes, therefore, increase the chance that societal violence will escalate, often to an alarming extent.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that the United States has a history of race riots and other forms of racial violence. Violence that at times has become so extreme, it can best be described as tantamount to a "race war." One very good example of this was the case of the infamous Tulsa Massacre:

Tulsa was, in some ways, not one city but two. Practically in the shadow of downtown, there sat a community that was no less remarkable than Tulsa itself. Some whites disparagingly referred to it as "Little Africa", or worse, but it has become known in later years simply as Greenwood. In the early months of 1921, it was the home of nearly ten-thousand African American men, women, and children. [...]

For more than a few black Tulsans, the bottom line on the matter [the lynching of a man arrested for shooting a taxicab driver] had become clearer than ever. Namely, the only ones who might prevent the threatened lynching of an African American prisoner in Tulsa would be black Tulsans themselves. [...]

As Tulsa prepared to celebrate Memorial Day, May 30, 1921, something else was in the air. As notions of taking the law into their own hands began to once again circulate among some white Tulsans, across the tracks in Greenwood, there were black Tulsans who were more determined than ever that in their city, no African American would fall victim to mob violence. World War veterans and newspaper editors, common laborers and businessmen, they were just as prepared as they had been two years earlier to make certain that no black person was ever lynched in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Precisely at this moment, in this highly charged atmosphere, that two previously unheralded Tulsans, named Dick Rowland and Sarah Page, walked out of the shadows, and onto the stage of history. [...]

What is certain, however, is that at some point on Monday, May 30, 1921, Dick Rowland entered the elevator operated by Sarah Page that was situated at the rear of the Drexel Building.82 What happened next is anyone's guess. After the riot, the most common explanation was that Dick Rowland tripped as he got onto the elevator and, as he tried to catch his fall, he grabbed onto the arm of Sarah Page, who then screamed. It also has been suggested that Rowland and Page had a lover's quarrel. ... Yet, in the days and years that followed, everyone who knew Dick Rowland agreed on one thing: that he would never have been capable of rape.

A clerk from Renberg's, a clothing store located on the first floor of the Drexel Building, however, reached the opposite conclusion. Hearing what he thought was a woman's scream, and apparently seeing Dick Rowland hurriedly flee the building, the clerk rushed to the elevator, where he found a distraught Sarah Page. Evidently deciding that the young elevator operator had been the victim of an attempted sexual assault, the clerk then summoned the police. [...]

As word of the alleged sexual assault in the Drexel Building spread, a crowd of whites began to gather on the street outside of the Tulsa County Courthouse, in whose jail Dick Rowland was being held. As people got off of work, and the news of the alleged attack reported in the Tribune became more widely dispersed across town, more and more white Tulsans, infuriated by what had supposedly taken place in the Drexel Building, began to gather outside the courthouse at Sixth and Boulder. By sunset -- which came at 7:34 p.m. that evening -- observers estimated that the crowd had grown into the hundreds. Not long afterwards, cries of "Let us have the nigger" could be heard echoing off of the walls of the massive stone courthouse. [...]

[A]t about 9:00 p.m. a group of approximately twenty-five African American men decided to cast their lot not only with an endangered fellow member of the race, but also, literally, upon the side of justice. Leaving Greenwood by automobile, they drove down to the courthouse, where the white mob had gathered. Armed with rifles and shotguns, the men got out of their automobiles, and marched to the courthouse steps. Their purpose, they announced to the no doubt stunned authorities, was to offer their services toward the defense of the jail -- an offer that was immediately declined. Assured that Dick Rowland was safe, the men then returned to their automobiles, and drove back to Greenwood.

The visit of the African American veterans had an electrifying effect, however, on the white mob, now estimated to be more than one thousand strong. Denied Rowland by Sheriff McCullough, it had been clear for some time that this was not to be an uncomplicated repetition of the Belton affair. The visit of the black veterans had not at all been foreseen. Shocked, and then outraged, some members of the mob began to go home to fetch their guns. [...]

Then it happened. As the black men were leaving the courthouse for the second time, a white man approached a tall African American World War I veteran who was carrying an army-issue revolver. "Nigger", the white man said, "What are you doing with that pistol?" "I'm going to use it if I need to," replied the black veteran. "No, you give it to me." Like hell I will." The white man tried to take the gun away from the veteran, and a shot rang out.106 America's worst race riot had begun.

What followed was one of the worst racial incidents in our nation's history. Whites in the thousands armed themselves and went on a rampage killing blacks wherever they found them. Eventually mobs of armed white vigilantes invaded the Greenwood area, and began killing men, women and children indiscriminately while setting fire to many homes and businesses there. Estimates of the black deaths range from as low as 100 to as high as 300. Many were buried in mass graves. The African American community in Greenwood was effectively destroyed.

So that is one very good public policy reason for hate crimes legislation. We like to think we have progressed as a society to the point where nothing like Greenwood could ever happen again, but the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict belie the assumptions behind that premise. Hate crimes legislation thus serves the purpose of helping to deter wide scale outbreaks of violence such as that which happened in Tulsa, over 85 years ago, by providing judicial relief for crimes which arise from prejudicial and bigoted beliefs.

But it does more than that. Hate crimes laws send a message that our society will not tolerate violence perpetrated by those who harbor bigoted beliefs about any group of people which differs from them. Hate crimes are, in effect, crimes against society. They act to intimidate vulnerable populations and help spread divisiveness and embolden further acts of violence and oppression. Such crimes of hate weaken our country, and loosen those bonds of civilization which keep us from degenerating into savage tribes bent on nothing but the slaughter and oppression of "the Other" whomever that is determined to be.

By setting hate crimes apart from your garden variety crimes of violence, society advances the goal of tolerance and acceptance of all people. Further, it advances the goal that all people are truly equal under the law by asserting that crimes committed on the basis of prejudice and hatred are particularly vile, and deserve enhanced punishment in order to balance the evil done to that fundamental principle of our jurisprudence. They also make clear that those who hate others and who act upon their group hatred to commit crimes of violence, deserve a higher level of punishment for their criminal acts, because those crimes are perpetrated not just against the intended victims, but also against society, in general.

And that's the reason I believe Hate Crimes laws are both desirable and necessary. They serve a valuable purpose in helping to deter outbreaks of mass violence, while also advancing the goal of tolerance and acceptance of all Americans regardless of our differences.



Display:
If I have misinterpreted you views, my apologies.  Nonetheless this post does set forth my views on why Hate Crimes laws in America are needed, and why I believe the standard objections raised against the passage of such laws are incorrect.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt
by Steven D (stevendbt at yahoo dot com) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 11:07:42 AM EST
Steven-

You make a very good argument.  But, you do seem to contradict yourself when you say that the law doesn't offer any special protections but then follow that up by arguing that the law is needed to protect certain 'communities'.

Here's the relevant part of the law.

(2) OFFENSES INVOLVING ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED RELIGION, NATIONAL ORIGIN, GENDER, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, GENDER IDENTITY, OR DISABILITY-

                  `(A) IN GENERAL- Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, in any circumstance described in subparagraph (B), willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability of any person--

                        `(i) shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both; and

                        `(ii) shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined in accordance with this title, or both, if--

                              `(I) death results from the offense; or

                              `(II) the offense includes kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill.

                  `(B) CIRCUMSTANCES DESCRIBED- For purposes of subparagraph (A), the circumstances described in this subparagraph are that--

                        `(i) the conduct described in subparagraph (A) occurs during the course of, or as the result of, the travel of the defendant or the victim--

                              `(I) across a State line or national border; or

                              `(II) using a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce;

                        `(ii) the defendant uses a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A);

                        `(iii) in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A), the defendant employs a firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or other weapon that has traveled in interstate or foreign commerce; or

                        `(iv) the conduct described in subparagraph (A)--

                              `(I) interferes with commercial or other economic activity in which the victim is engaged at the time of the conduct; or

                              `(II) otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce.

Let's leave aside the tortured use of the commerce clause because that is a hallmark of all civil rights law.  This law is very specific that is aims to protect people from crime based on race, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation.  The question is whether we should treat these crimes differently from how they are currently treated.  

I don't argue against treating a hate crime more seriously than a regular crime...for all the reasons you laid out.  I question whether we want to introduce a specific charge, separate from the underlying crime.  

You make a good point that a separate charge will allow for a higher degree of clarity, but I am not totally convinced that this is necessary.  We have juries decide such things in the sentencing phase of death penalty cases, for example, without a separate charge of committing a death-worthy crime.

I read the law, and I am still a little confused by it.  But I take it that this law will introduce a separate charge carrying a separate 'not more than ten years' sentence to assault, and harsher penalties for crimes resulting in death.  

I am not really buying that this is a necessary bill that will act as a deterrent, and that it wouldn't be better to just issue some federal sentencing guidelines.

Most of the people that opposed this bill are rednecks.  I don't dispute that.  And if Carney promised to support such legislation and then blew off the LGBT community, then he deserves to get called on it.  But I don't think I would have voted for it, and therefore, I think it is unfair to consider a vote against it a vote against tolerance.  

"The obvious was hidden. With nothing to believe in, the compass always points to Terrapin." -Robert Hunter

by BooMan on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 12:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman, my understanding was that this law was already on the books.  The only changes being made was that gays were being added to the list, and that federal jurisdiction was being expanded beyond the limited circumstances of requiring the victim to have been engaged in a federally protected activity.  One can reasonably criticize the bill for that, I suppose, but the issue of the validity of hate crimes themselves is not really at issue there.

The law itself is quite clear -- one must act willfully to commit an act of violence because they are or are believed to be a member of a particular race, national origin, religion, disabilty, gender or sexual orientation.  There isn't a lot of disagreement on what willfully means under the law.  It's a legal term of art which means intentionally, of one's own volition (if you are coerced than you are not acting willfully).  So, I don't see any real issue there, either.

The thing with aggravating or mitigating factors in sentencing guidelines is that they often allow more ambiguity than a straight line charge in the indictment that a hate crime has been committed.  Hate crimes generally have a mandatory range of sentences. Whereas aggravating and mitigating factors leave a lot up in the air.

Sometimes under the law, the Judge applies these factors at his or her discretion, and sometimes the jury is left to muddle through ,applying a   balancing test where the "bad items" are offset against the good ones.  It allows too much room for personal prejudice and sentiment to enter into the equation.  A straightforward hate crimes law is much preferable, because it doesn't let someone off the hook if he demonstrated a "good character" in other aspects of his life except for his occasional forays into beating up gays or other minorities with his friends.

Besides which, not every state even has laws which provide that motives for the crime which are based on race, etc. can be considered as "aggravating factors" in sentencing.  The tendency in many jurisdictions (and this has been borne out by the statistics) has been to go easy on defendants convicted of "hate crimes" where there are no hate crimes laws on the books, and where the defendants were either white or their victims were members of a particularly despised group (i.e., LGBT) in the community where the crime occurred.

There are good reasons why minority groups generally prefer hate crimes laws to merely "enhanced" sentencing procedures.  It's much easier to get around the latter.

As for hate crimes laws providing special protections for certain communities, that's not quite my argument.  What I say is that protection of those communities is good social policy, because it protects all of us.  Even you or I could someday be mistaken for a gay man if we happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and in the presence of strangers who had decided we needed a good beating because of their perception of the "lifestyle" we led.  Furthermore, hate crimes laws, by reducing the risk that the violence will escalate after the fact when such incidents do occur, benefits society as a whole.  We are all better off when the laws protect us from violence motivated by prejudice and bigotry.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D (stevendbt at yahoo dot com) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 12:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're partially right.  

In 1969, they passed a hate crime bill (TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 245.  Section 249 amends that to include GENDER, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, GENDER IDENTITY, OR DISABILITY.

It also injects a healthy dose of commerce clause justification for intervening.  I never have liked that trick, but it was absolutely essential to passing civil rights laws that could pass constitutional muster, so we have to live with it.  

There was also a 1994 Hate Crime Sentencing Enhancement Act.  

The original hate crimes act was aimed at protecting the following:

(b) Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, by force or threat of force willfully injures, intimidates or interferes with, or attempts to injure, intimidate or interfere with--
(1) any person because he is or has been, or in order to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of persons from--
(A) voting or qualifying to vote, qualifying or campaigning as a candidate for elective office, or qualifying or acting as a poll watcher, or any legally authorized election official, in any primary, special, or general election;
(B) participating in or enjoying any benefit, service, privilege, program, facility, or activity provided or administered by the United States;
(C) applying for or enjoying employment, or any perquisite thereof, by any agency of the United States;
(D) serving, or attending upon any court in connection with possible service, as a grand or petit juror in any court of the United States;
(E) participating in or enjoying the benefits of any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance; or
(2) any person because of his race, color, religion or national origin and because he is or has been--
(A) enrolling in or attending any public school or public college;
(B) participating in or enjoying any benefit, service, privilege, program, facility or activity provided or administered by any State or subdivision thereof;
(C) applying for or enjoying employment, or any perquisite thereof, by any private employer or any agency of any State or subdivision thereof, or joining or using the services or advantages of any labor organization, hiring hall, or employment agency;
(D) serving, or attending upon any court of any State in connection with possible service, as a grand or petit juror;
(E) traveling in or using any facility of interstate commerce, or using any vehicle, terminal, or facility of any common carrier by motor, rail, water, or air;
(F) enjoying the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, or of any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility which serves the public and which is principally engaged in selling food or beverages for consumption on the premises, or of any gasoline station, or of any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium, or any other place of exhibition or entertainment which serves the public, or of any other establishment which serves the public and
(i) which is located within the premises of any of the aforesaid establishments or within the premises of which is physically located any of the aforesaid establishments, and
(ii) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such establishments;

This is really focused primarily on enforcing desegregation and voting rights...equal rights.

It's not clear to me whether this should properly be seen as a 'law that was already on the books' because the intent of the amendment to the law is quite different.  Or maybe I am just reading this wrong.  The original law was about making sure blacks could vote, attend public schools and universities, etc.

That's not the focus of the new law.

I take your point about the shortcomings of relying on sentencing guidelines.  

"The obvious was hidden. With nothing to believe in, the compass always points to Terrapin." -Robert Hunter

by BooMan on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some more thoughts.

As to the special protection being offered, they extend to "white people" as well who may become victims of a hate crime based on their race.  So you and I get the same protections based on our perceived racial status, even if we may not ever need them.  Some day, however, whites will be in the minority in the United States, and we should consider that hate crimes laws may be needed at that time by people who now do not see the need for them because of their current privileged status in society.

As for Carney's vote against this bill, I assume he had opportunities to offer amendments to the bill, or to make clear that he was voting against the bill because of reasons other than its inclusion of gays, women, trans-gendered people and the disabled.  To my knowledge he didn't do that.  And that's what people are taking him to task for.

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

by Steven D (stevendbt at yahoo dot com) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an excellent point that I had not thought of.  Of course we think of women and people of color, but in reality it affords white men the same protection should they ever need it.  Thanks.  I really appreciated your essay as well.
by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're correct that the law can be applied to whites that are victims of race based crime (and in my neighborhood, that is the most likely reason for me to be assaulted).  

Again...if I am assaulted because I am white I do not think it is necessary to tack an extra ten years on to the crime, nor do I think that a jury couldn't handle a finding of fact in the sentencing phase, and recommend the higher end of punishment.  

It smacks of mandatory minimums, for one thing.  For another, I worry about prosecutorial abuse.  What if I got beat up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just because the person has a record of making intemperate remarks they get hammered with an extra decade of incarceration?

I see all your points.  I'm still not convinced.  But I respect the intent and I acknowledge that most opponents of this law oppose it for bigoted reasons.

"The obvious was hidden. With nothing to believe in, the compass always points to Terrapin." -Robert Hunter

by BooMan on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just read Booman's post, and together with the recent posts on diversity on MyDD (boy that was fun), I was starting to wonder if I've entered some bizarro world.

I am not sure we really deserve the mantle of "the progressive blogosphere" until we begin to give issues which disproportionately do NOT affect middle class straight white men the same attention and respect as the issues which affect middle class straight white men directly.  

The fact that there are few crimes, injustices of which middle class straight white men are uniquely victims is a reflection of their priveledged postion in our society.  I can't fault Booman for that.  But I do fault him for ignoring the fact in his previous post.  

by poemless on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 11:23:59 AM EST
Thank you Steven.
by Alice on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 11:44:24 AM EST
Well done, Steven.  As one who has had to witness the results of these hate crimes against many of my gay friends and community, I have to say that still, even today in our so-called more enlightened state, crimes against gays are very difficult to get police interested in any actual police work.  They do not think there is anything wrong with attacking, beating or killing gay people.  They deserve it, don't they?  I don't know if the hate crimes legislation does anything to alter this perception by our police departments, but something has to be done.  I'm in favor of whatever it takes to change this.  Just as black people are often "guilty" of driving while black, gays are often "guilty" of living while being gay.

I appreciate everyone's concern and caring for those who suffer from such hatred, but just as I don't truly know how it feels day in and day out to be black and the object of such treatment, you don't know what it is like to be the object day in and day out of some crazy persons hatred of gays.

I've seen too much over my many years to find much comfort in "intellectual" discussions of such things.  As always, actions speak louder than words.  All people are created equal, except black, brown, yellow, red, or gays and women.  That is still what the predominant actions say.

don't miss ~ Matters of Spirit and Expanded Views

by shirlstars (shirlstarsw@aol.com) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:12:20 PM EST


Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true. - Francis Bacon
by snakelass (b.t.loving@recursor.net) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:29:13 PM EST
Most of the emphasis has been on the gay community and how this bill effects the whole of that community.  It's about time I say, it's about time.

But I want to talk about gender and the hate against women and what it has done to the community of women in this country for decades and decades.  

A woman is the victim of sexual assault every 2 1/2 minutes in this country.  One out of every three women will be raped or sexually assaulted in our lifetimes.  A woman is  the victim of domestic abuse every nine seconds.  The stats seem to be leaning towards less violence, be it ever so slight, but the fact remains that women are beaten, raped and murdered every single day in this country.

The community of women have learned that it is up to us to make ourselves more safe, it is up to us to look over our shoulders, to never take a walk in the park alone, to distrust our fellow classmates at the colleges of our choosing, to more mundane things as not sitting in our cars in parking lots to write a check before going into the mall or the bank or the grocery store.

We have lobbied for stiffer sentences for decades, those rapists that see the inside of any cell in prison is less than 10% and all too often they don't spend many years there, they are routinely given their freedom to rape again.  

It is as heinous today as it was in the 20th century as it was in the 19th century and beyond.  We don't have the liberty of feeling safe because we don't live in a country that makes us safe.  The talk of national security is laughable to most women, we don't worry about terrorists coming into this country to rape and murder us, we fear the terrorists who were too often born here, who sit across the table from us, who share our beds with us, we fear the stranger who walks behind us and who stands next to us in line, the seemingly friendly guy that jogs behind us.

We watch our backs as if it's a necessity because it is, I ask every man if they know what it's like to be on alert every second of every day, to imagine what it's like to have it be a routine, that it is rote for us to do so.

When hate speech becomes common against women and hate thoughts become reality, we are the victims, we are the ones who suffer and all too often we blame ourselves because we are shamed into it, we are told we didn't protect ourselves enough, we shouldn't have dressed like we do or walked like we did or we let our guard down.  When those thoughts that are filled with such hate get passed on, the perps deserve to be tried under this Hate Crimes bill because it is the right thing to do and because it's been way too many years in the making.

Gender is now apart of the Hate Crimes bill because there is such hate towards women in this country, and sadly today will be the same as yesterday and the day before that until the consequences of such hatred against us is severe enough that those men who do us such great harm think twice before they beat, rape and murder us, all too often out of hate.

What women want is what men want. They want respect. Marilyn Vos Savant

by caliberal on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:46:32 PM EST
Unfortunately your post is an example of what I am talking about...extending hate crimes and the law creeping until it covers everyone...so "everyone" becomes a special class and then voila!..you are right back where you started with just extra sentencing for hate crimes and great potential for miscarriages of justice.
And I am a woman btw.

Also unfortunately hate crimes always have been and always will be part of violence in society.

If you want hate crime laws then then confine it to "hate" and don't specify any color, gender or religion. Have it apply to any crime based on hate.

Even then it would be messy...does a man beat his wife because he hates women?..or just because he's a bully towards everyone anyway? I can see a lot of (pardon the expression) f** up prosecutions and messed up juries in this.

by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 06:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hate crimes don't specify gender, color or religion.  They do try to target any crime based on hate.  What you see is that most of the targets are black or brown, gay identified, or women.  So naturally at this time that is what we think of.  But as Steven taught us above, if gangs of black thugs targeted whites or white me, the rule would still hold.  As a civilized society, we cannot tolerate hate for the "other" to rip us apart.  By passing these laws, we are saying to the World that we do not tolerate hatred and bigotry.  How is that a bad thing?
by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 11:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
White men, not white me, though I surely an white.
by Kamakhya (onyx at earthlink dot net) on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 11:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a bad thing.

All I am saying is once you put a "seperate law" into effect for hate crimes as opposed to other crimes of the same injury you are going to have cases where it is much more difficult to get a conviction on "that" particular crime. Suppose for instance a prosecutor charges a man under the hate crimes law for killing another man in a gang fight...the defense will claim self defense...and the prosecutor may not be able to present any evidence of prior acts or statements proving "hate" and not prove their case..so then the jury is left with accepting the self defense plea...whereas they could have been presented with a charge of manslaughter instead against a plea of self defense which would make the case much easier to prosecute and get some kind of sentence on.

I just believe it will too convoluted in actual practice.

by calypso on Thu May 10th, 2007 at 12:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All I can say is your words are painfully true.  It sounds strange but one of the reasons why many Muslims (and not just them but I'm giving an example) despite the decadence of the "west" is precisely because women live in fear and are terrorized and hunted down and stalked.

There is a complete and utter disrespect and misogynistic hatred against women that is pervasive in the United States that is rarely seen anywhere else in the world outside of the Hindu Kush mountains.  I'd say the USA ranks just slightly above parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan in this and light years behind Syria, Iran, Egypt and even pre-Saddam Iraq.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu May 10th, 2007 at 07:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
after the Rodney King verdict -- a better parallel might be the "White Night" riots after the "diminished capacity" verdict against Dan White in the assassination of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk (first openly gay supervisor)...what's become known as the "Twinkie Defense".

Had this type of legislation been on the books, it's likely that White's legal team would have been less likely to prove that defense; IIRC, White had made derogatory comments about Milk and homosexuals in the path. Of course, the gay rights movement was still in its infancy in the late 1970s. The stigma was still there to a great degree -- it would take another year for me to meet my first gay friend Larry, and he only came out to me so I could help him break the news to a mutual female friend who had a crush on him. (Long story there...)

And actually, hate crimes legislation does not set apart these crimes from the "garden variety" violent crimes -- it adds an additional level of motivation for the prosecution to argue and the jury to consider. I caught the last part of an episode of "Law & Order" on TNT the other night -- it was the episode where a couple adopted a drug-addicted baby, only to have one of the partners brutally murdered by the father of the baby when he discovered his son had been adopted by a gay couple. McCoy successfully argued that it was a hate crime under New York criminal law...wish I could remember his argument or even the episode name...

"Mr. Bush, you do not own this country!" -- Keith Olbermann, 1/2/07

by Cali Scribe on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:42:16 PM EST
should be "in the past" -- not sure where that "path" slipped in my alleged brain...


"Mr. Bush, you do not own this country!" -- Keith Olbermann, 1/2/07
by Cali Scribe on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 01:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must say I don't buy your arguement at all.

A crime is a crime is a crime...no need to consider "MOTIVATION" in a crime except when you have no factual evidence of the crime and are making an arguement as to why the suspect "may have" had reason to commit the crime.

Hate laws are a bad idea. It seperates crimes against certain people from crimes against other people. Making other victims of the same type of crime or injury "lesser" in the eyes of justice than the "protected group".

And this ..."They also make clear that those who hate others and who act upon their group hatred to commit crimes of violence, deserve a higher level of punishment for their criminal acts, because those crimes are perpetrated not just against the intended victims, but also against society, in general.

And that's the reason I believe Hate Crimes laws are both desirable and necessary. They serve a valuable purpose in helping to deter outbreaks of mass violence, while also advancing the goal of tolerance and acceptance of all Americans regardless of our differences."

Why would an attack against a black or gay or white be any more of an attack against "society as a whole" than
some carjacker shooting a random innocent person in the head and stealing his car?

And why should "hate" enter the picture in the severity of punishment? A person murdered or injured for "greed' or money or whatever is just as dead or injured and deserves the same justice, not less than a person murdered for being gay. Shall we extend hate crime status to "rich people" or "fat people" or homeless people..as in he was attacked for being a obese eyesore or a dirty vagrant or a rich asshole robber baron?

No way I am for this nitpicking of crimes and "levels" of punishment for different motivations. The suffering and results of crimes are the same for every victim...all victims regardless of their attackers motivation deserve the same rights under the law.

Furthermore, this special provision of Hate crimes will not deter "mass attacks"...it would more likely lead to more resentment of "special persons", not less. Putting certain people in a special class above others in the justice system will only garner that protected class more hate from those who already hate them. Some extra severity of punishment isn't going to deter anyone from going after the object of their hate if they are so inclined anyway.

by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:05:59 PM EST
well...

take the example of cross-burning.

Or, let's take another example.

Let's say that a couple of teenagers take some gasoline and light a tree on fire in your front-yard.  And let's say they really didn't have any motivation other than boredom.  They didn't even know you.  

What is the appropriate punishment?

Whatever it is, is sure as shit isn't ten years in prison.

But what if two people light a cross on fire in your frontyard because you're black and have just moved into a white neighborhood?

On the surface, it's the same thing.  Except, they are not the same thing at all.  

"The obvious was hidden. With nothing to believe in, the compass always points to Terrapin." -Robert Hunter

by BooMan on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well what if someone killed your dog because he barks as opposed to they killed your dog because you are black or white or gay and they don't like you. The dog is still dead.

Judges ( and juries) have the discretion to pass sentences or make recommendations they think fit the circumstances and the crime. That is where is should remain. It is not always perfect depending on the particular court..but hate crime laws open up another whole can of worms that could be expanded into infinity...and probably would be.

Let's imagine a group of boys (or men) get into a fight because someone calls someone a name..like "n" or "kike" or "honkey" or "faggot"...and in the end a black or gay ends up killing the white or straight because he "hates" whites or non-homosexuals who call him names.....?
So.. shall we charge the black or gay with a crime or a higher level of "hate crime"?

You are going to have lots of unintended consquences and appeals and unanswerable questions once you start to use "motivation" in setting sentences.

by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:35:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The issue is about crimes that target a community for intimidation, versus crimes that target an individual.  

I agree that the law risks making a mess of things.  But I also think you are being a little too dismissive.  

As for how things can get weird...

I live in So. Philly.  I used to live in a mostly white neighborhood, now I live in a mostly black neighborhood.  Back when I lived in a white neighborhood, there was a black family that bought a house about a block away from me.  The people across the street from them responded by hanging a confederate flag off the side of their rowhouse.  It flew for months.  

Is that a hate crime?  No, I guess it is not a crime.  But it is hateful and was intended to intimidate.  The question is, when the intimidation comes with a violent act, does it warrant a more severe penalty?

I think it does.  But not necessarily as a separate charge.  

"The obvious was hidden. With nothing to believe in, the compass always points to Terrapin." -Robert Hunter

by BooMan on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can only say what I have learned over 30 years ..you cannot enforce away, nor can you penalize away hate. More severe sentences haven't so far deterred anyone, even on ordinary crimes for profit, so crimes driven by irrational "emotions" are even less likely to be deterred.

Any act can be subject to different interpretations and different degrees of crime and that is why I think it is best left to the courts,the Judges or the jury system to punish according to the "circumstances".

Burning a cross in someone's yard for instance can be considered a "threat" under the law...and that is how the perpetrators would be charged...you can make a threatening "gesture" toward a person and be arrested for a non verbal threat in most states.  Flying a confederate flag on your own property isn't illegal although it may be unfriendly to say he least....but making someone uncomfortable isn't against the law.

Nope, I think it is a really, really bad idea legally...and is no solution to the problem.

by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 06:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I do not mean to be dismissive of hate crimes.

I agree that these criminals are totally despicable. More so than your ordinary criminal. In cases like the dragging to death of a man in Texas the death penalty or life imprisonment is not too harsh in my opinion.

But.... juries do not need a hate crimes "law" to see what justice is in most cases. In fact in some cases it could get in the way of justice.

by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 06:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW....I have never yet meet a criminal who actually considered beforehand the reality of being "caught" and punished for his crime.
by calypso on Wed May 9th, 2007 at 03:16:32 PM EST
Masterful piece and for what it's worth my two cents, I agree with you Steven in the broad sense that hate crimes legislation is worthwhile (but as written only in the United States).

I tend to think the strongest "arm" of this argument is that an extra charge gives prosecutors more leverage in avoiding trials and getting guilty pleas.  

I also think that it has a very low deterrence factor (on an individual level) and is largely an expression of society's disapproval and that is a valid enough reason by itself.

I do have to disagree with this though:

We punish murderers and thieves, for example, because it was decided that society had an interest in lowering the levels of societal violence that would otherwise arise if rulers and governments did not take action to mete out justice to those who "break the peace."

I think the closer answer is that any society which is large enough that every individual is neither known by name/face nor by family connections eventually has the power to resolve differences (which includes the right to use force) taken away (by force) by the rulers (democratic or despot or anything in between).

There are thieves in every society including "savage" or "uncivilized" ones.  It's only ones where a central authority has co-opted the right to resolve differences (including with the use of force) that laws are necessary and the ones about thievery or murder or anything else are simply to maintain the ruling group/individual's absolute authority on resolving disputes.

Societal violence, including thievery and especially murder, is always just fine and okeydokey with society (the ruling group/individual) so long as it is done with the ruling group's permission and at their behest.  See the carnage in Iraq for proof of that.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu May 10th, 2007 at 07:47:20 AM EST


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