A self-declared optimist and glass half full kind of guy, Billy Bragg has to admit world politics is tricky currently. "I think unfortunately given the developments in the last 12 months globally, hope is in very short supply at the moment."
The English singer/songwriter has long been an activist for the working class and the disenfranchised. Now 59, the bard from Barking has lost none of his socialist ideals and is touring Australia against the backdrop of Britain's decision to exit the European Union and Donald Trump's election.
Bragg has several ideas about what to do if you're one of those finding the new world order difficult. First and foremost, he believes we need to fight cynicism. "Our sense that no one cares about this sort of stuff, feeling that it will never change, we have got to overcome that in order to get to hope."
He argues empathy is in short supply today – and that it's a deliberate strategy on behalf of those in power. "The people who are behind Donald Trump and the people behind Brexit are waging a war on empathy. They seem to want to demonise anyone who shows any compassion for anyone outside the tribe. If you ever speak about equality, you're dismissed ... they seem to have no capacity for basic human empathy. As a performer, we deal in empathy. The whole thing about music is it has an ability to make you feel for someone you've never met ... it's absolutely crucial that we have those feelings of empathy beyond our selfish interests.
"The reason they hate empathy so much is that if we start thinking about one another and we start working with each other, they're in trouble. It's all change for them at the top, getting more resources and more power, whereas at the bottom if we take action, you mix action with empathy and you get solidarity, you get solidarity you get change. I think that's why they are so dismissive of anyone who stands together."
It's a technique often used by some politicians in Australia. Label those who express a humanitarian perspective a bleeding heart, an elite or one of the chattering classes to negate their argument. "It seeks to shut us up and undermine our position," says Bragg.
"Because they fear the power of people working together. So to get to that hopeful place where things can happen we need to fight our own cynicism and focus on our feelings of empathy and compassion for one another and build on that."
I wonder if the arts, traditionally a source of solace in difficult times, still provides hope. Bragg cautions against a potential complacency inherent in that idea. "You have to be very careful that you don't imagine that art has agency, it doesn't. I speak as someone who has over many years tried to change the world through songs. It has a very important role in that it does bring people together."
"You have to accept that the only people who can really make change in that scenario are the audience – not the artist. You must not imagine as an artist you can bring change; as an audience member you mustn't think 'oh I've bought my Billy Bragg record, that's it'."
What does he suggest for people feeling frustrated and powerless? That comes down to the individual: for some, action might be joining a union, standing up against discrimination, doing your job in a way that helps the environment. For some, it could be joining a political party.
He's been writing a book about skiffle music in Britain in the 1950s, which is due out in July, and a decade ago he put some of Woody Guthrie's lyrics to music on Mermaid Avenue. His current tour and album, with American artist Joe Henry, explores the railways in the States and how their development offered people a freedom, "a connectivity well beyond what the internet provided".
According to Bragg, history shows "people have reached this point in society again and again. Every generation has to find a way to deal with the blues."
For him, the power hungry and the money obsessed will always exist: "They're always there, they're like a bacteria in your gut. Sometimes they flare up and you have to deal with them. Now is one of those times."
"We've never in peacetime put ourselves in such a difficult position as we have with Brexit; I think with the Americans and Trump it's a similar thing."
Bragg was touring with Henry in Britain the night Trump was elected. "The next night we had a gig in Canterbury and [Henry] said 'I don't know what I'm going to say to the audience'. I said 'Mate, we've just lived through Brexit, just say how you feel. We know exactly how you feel.' He came up with a great form of words, as an American, which he said with regards to Trump: 'This is where we are, not who we are.'"
Politically, his sympathies have always lain left of centre and Bragg is concerned the divide between the haves and the have-nots is widening. "The working class are very much maligned at the moment. In my country they've got the blame for Brexit and I think that's unfair. Some people did vote because their metal bashing jobs have gone elsewhere and I understand that but really, Brexit is the anger of the unheard. People who are no longer listened to. People who don't feel their voices are heard at Westminster, even though it was supposed to be a vote about the European Union – and I think maybe even in Trump's election there's an element of that.
"Have they voted in desperation and anger for a candidate and a solution that's only going to make their situation worse? I think it's the working people who are going to suffer the most from Brexit because already the devaluation of the pound is starting to put prices up at home."
One idea floated post-Brexit is for Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain to form a trading bloc. "It's a sign of how desperate the Brexiteers are to get back to something that's long ago lost that they should want to get back to doing trade with white people who speak English and have the queen on their notes. It's really sad. Empire 2.0."
"I think in the end Brexit is going to be a deep and dark and dreadful mirror maybe even to the English people, 'cos it may end up just being us and the Welsh with the Irish and Scots having gone their own way."
He is convinced the decision to leave the EU may be reversed but at great expense. "When it becomes clear that the cost – and I'm not talking economic or financial – but the spiritual and emotional cost of leaving the European Union will be the end of the union of the United Kingdom, the Brexiteers might say maybe that's too high a price to pay."
So does he still feel optimistic? Absolutely. "I resolutely cling to that. I mean I have my days, don't get me wrong and think I have some halcyon view of the world, but when it falls back on it I have to check my own cynicism and say to myself 'Pull your socks up, don't go there'."
His son Jack is following in Bragg's footsteps as a singer/songwriter. At 23, Jack is also developing a strong interest in local and global affairs. "Since Brexit, we've had a lot more conversations about politics than before … we've started having [deeper] conversations and I'm hoping that his entire generation are having those kind of conversations."
"I was politicised by Margaret Thatcher – the decisions she made affected my life. And Brexit is now starting to affect his life. He won't be able to go and live in Europe. So, hopefully [he and his generation] they're waking up."
Billy Bragg and Joe Henry play Bluesfest at Byron April 13-17; Sydney, April 19; Canberra, April 20; and Melbourne, April 22 and 23.