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April 5

Microeconomic pricing

Generally when some business sees a lot of clients, it increases the price for higher revenue. However, since low prices by definition attract more clients and high prices detract them, one might think that the better strategy would be lowering the prices instead, even if there isn't a lot of clients. For example, business A offers some service for 10$ and business B offers 25$ for the service of the same type and quality, as such the former business sees, say, 300 clients a day on average, while the latter sees 100. This would yield 3,000 $ of daily revenue for cheaper service A and 2,500 $ for service B, meaning higher revenue at lower price. Are there any references to such pricing strategy in economic theory and is there a name for it? Brandmeister^talk 08:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not as simple as that. One trader was unable to sell her goods at a low price. After she increased her price people regarded it as a quality product and began to buy. 86.147.208.39 (talk) 10:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Plus, your example is in any case flawed. Your figures of 300 and 100 clients respectively would not be correct according to a demand curve. --Viennese Waltz 10:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

The example is correct—higher price yields lesser quantity demanded. Loraof (talk) 18:11, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

When selling a product or service, a business can use a variety of Pricing strategies that may have other motives than maximising sales volume. Veblen goods apparently contradict the Law of demand that states: as the price of a product increases (↑), quantity demanded falls (↓); likewise, as the price of a product decreases (↓), quantity demanded increases (↑)"". The illogical market response where lowering prices will dissuade (not "detract") rather than attract buyers has been characterized as "Giffen good". Blooteuth (talk) 11:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, looks like it's the law of demand I was looking for. Brandmeister^talk 14:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

@Brandmeister:, the case you describe, in which the lower price yields higher revenue, is one in which the elasticity of demand is greater than 1 in magnitude—that is, demand is relatively elastic. Loraof (talk) 18:11, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Also note that your pricing strategy shouldn't be to maximize income, but rather to maximize profit. Thus, overhead and per unit costs must be considered. Let's use your numbers and add these in:

"business A offers some service for 10$ and business B offers 25$ for the service of the same type and quality, as such the former business sees, say, 300 clients a day on average, while the latter sees 100. This would yield 3,000 $ of daily revenue for cheaper service A and 2,500 $ for service B, meaning higher revenue at lower price."

Now let's say each firm has an overhead of $100 per day, no matter what they do, and a per unit cost of $5. If they sell 100 units per day, that costs them $100 + $5(100) = $600. If they sell 300 units per day, that costs them $100 + $5(300) = $1600. So, the profits at the lower price are then $3000 - $1600 = $1400, while at the higher price they are $2500 - $600 = $1900. StuRat (talk) 04:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Cebuano Wikipedia

According to Wikipedia#Language editions, the largest Wikipedia (by number of articles) is, unsurprisingly, the English one, with more than 5M articles. But the second largest is Cebuano, with 4M articles, which, well, I would not have guessed. I was trying to figure out if this was some April-fools vandalism, but no, it appears to be true.

So I was trying to figure this out, and I managed to find what I think is the "random article" button in ceb.wiki (that would be ceb:Espesyal:Bisan-unsa) and tried hitting it a few times. Virtually always, there's a template referring to a bot called Lsjbot — ah, and I may have now just answered my own question; here's the botmaster's explanation.

So now I guess I'm looking for a question, because I think this is still interesting enough to post. OK, here's one: Are there other examples of a single bot so dramatically changing the footprint of a Wikipedia language edition? Or maybe of a general topic? I remember Steve Baker commenting on how many random articles were about Japanese railway stations; is that a similar effect? --Trovatore (talk) 09:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedia which was brought on the 3rd place, also thanks to a single bot. Waray Wikipedia too. Brandmeister^talk 09:25, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if Cebuano will pass English. I guess I can't think of any obvious reason to think it won't. --Trovatore (talk) 09:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:History of Wikipedia bots. Way way back in the day, User:rambot created thousands of articles about every settlement in the United States, and you can see its effect in the huge spike in English articles beginning October 2002. Smurrayinchester 11:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about the number of bots involved, but they've definitely made a big difference to a number of wikipedias. Volapük wikipedia may not seem big compared to some of the others with only about 120k articles, but when you consider the popularity of the language, it should be obvious many of these do not have substantial human involvement. I believe for a time, the Volapük wikipedia was actually one of the larger ones.

If you look at our main page, you'd note a number of wikipedias are missing despite qualifying on size to be in the various lists. This isn't an accident. In the past, the list only followed size. Then some wikipedias appeared with a lot of articles with a lot of bot involvement. For a time, a minimum depth (meta:List of Wikipedias/meta:Wikipedia article depth) was required to appear on the list. Then wikipedias started to have a high depth despite being mostly bot created. Finally the system which I think is still in place where wikipedias are not added to the list (or removed) if it's found a substantial chunk are short or stubs.

I commented at the time I suspect depth wouldn't work, and further I was concerned about the ad-hoc way the quality standard was implemented, however I decided to let it be once I tested and found there was actually a very big difference between most of those rejected and those already listed except possibly one shouldn't have been listed. Likewise www.wikipedia.org for a time was listed by size but they later chose to list wikipedias by popularity at least for the main ones (but strangely used Alexa stats rather than WMF ones initially).

Nil Einne (talk) 11:29, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

There's some comment at Wikipedia:Volapük Wikipedia about the issues of bot creation that were raised by that case. See also Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 May 2#Cebuano wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• France, Nigeria and Poland all seem to have government subsidized wp programs. I noticed this a few years back when hitting the random-article button. After repeated trials, it turned out that one out of 20 English wp articles was about a Polish voivodship (township). Of course God also has an extraordinary fondness for Beatles. μηδείς (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

And (maybe more recently) not just Poland but also Iran has a huge number of villages of around 100 families on English Wikipedia. Also a huge number of soccer players have short articles. Ever since I found that out by using the random-article button, I've been considerably less impressed by English WP's 5 million article count. Loraof (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, @Loraof: It's been a while since I did the random article experiment, but anyone here can do it easily enough. If memory serves, Iran's a heck bigger than France, Germany, or Poland. BTW, the Cebuano language is actually the largest indigenous language of the Philippines by native speaker even if the Tagalog language is the state tongue. μηδείς (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Here are 10 randoms done just now. Australian politician, Iranian company, American county, international sporting event, Canadian company, Ethiopian lake, village in Kiribati, American river, American band, gastropod. Nothing relating to the very populous BRICs, quite an American selection, seemingly reflecting time put in by individual English speakers. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I can outrandom you, Judith: Japanese manga, American politician, Romanian music producer, UK game show, US motor racing championship, Brazilian airport, Iranian village(*), list of Californian politicians, Missile Defense Integration and Operations Center, Soviet Union v Chile (1974 FIFA World Cup qualification play-off). My usual experience is Polish villages, with Iranian villages(*) in close second place. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:06, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I should make it clear these were stubs about political sub-units, small towns, not things that just happen to be in or come from places. In other words, I ignored any article that was not about a municipality, and its still came out that 1/20th of wp articles at that time were about Polish municipaiities. μηδείς (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

April 7

RGIS

What is RGIS? I've seen it on job boards for inventory positions, but what do they do? — Melab±1 ☎ 02:32, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

[1]. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:05, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

RGIS = Retail Grocery Inventory Services. Blooteuth (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Container ship "supertower"

Somewhere I picked up that notion that the large, multi-storey above-deck structure towards the stern of a container ship which houses the bridge (presumably among others things, like crew quarters) was called the "supertower." But now Google suggests that's not a thing at all, or that it's the name of a skyscraper in Bangkok. What's it actually called? Does it even have a name? "Conning tower" seems to be more military. Dr-ziego (talk) 09:23, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you thinking of superstructure, which is obviously not specific to container ships, or ships. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Superstructure! That's it, thanks. Dr-ziego (talk) 06:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

• Incidentally, that structure goes all the way down to the bottom of the ship and occupies the whole width of the ship (100 feet for Panamax), and it's more than 60 feet front-to-back. The engine room is in the bottom, as are the fuel tanks. It's as tall as a 12-story building. It has to be that big to support the bridge to see over the containers, and of course the container cranes cannot put containers in there because the bridge in in the way. Therefore, the crew has a LOT of room: a junior officer's quarters are much larger than a first-class stateroom on a cruise ship. -Arch dude (talk) 02:17, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

And much bigger than the captain's stateroom on a submarine. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:98A2:6399:3C22:3E37 (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

The term "poop superstructure" gets some hits for supertankers, poop deck being the aftermost area of the ship. Alansplodge (talk) 08:20, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

My wife and I have traveled as passengers on container ships, seven voyages, one around the world for three months, where the Captain complained that our cabin was bigger and better than his!80.234.164.34 (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Learning to drive

If staying close enough to the center of your lane in curves to pass the test takes x hours to learn about how long should learning to use the brake and throttle enough to pass the test take to learn? How long would parallel parking take? What about the rest of the skills needed to pass the test? Of you could still be a total nincompoop in snow or a long pickup or anything else the road tester or someone else qualified didn't test you in. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

The various driving skills (staying in your lane, breaking smoothly, etc) are taught simultaneously during driving practice. Parallel parking does require specific instruction. In my days, the driving schools recommended 8 hours of practice with an instructor (an hour representing around 45 minutes of actual driving) on an automatic gearshift, 10 hours if learning on a manual gearshift. Two full sessions were dedicated solely to parallel parking early on, but it was practiced in each follow-up session as well. The number of hours and type of instruction will depend on what the driving exam entails in your specific jurisdiction. And, in spite of living in Canada at the time, I learned to drive in the middle of summer and got my licence without ever having experienced winter conditions. Nowadays, the period during which one drives with a learner's permit before being allowed to take a road test has been extended by a number of months, so that at least part of that period will take place in winter. --Xuxl (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

If one of those is usually learned say halfway through learning the other then that'd seem to suggest one is harder than the other. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

On the issue of pick-ups, permits are given for a certain class of vehicle. If you want to drive something bigger, you need to qualify on that type of vehicle (i.e. a bus or a large truck). But most pick-ups fall in the category of regular vehicles and can be driven by anyone with a standard driver's licence (at least in North America). See Driver's licence. --Xuxl (talk) 17:38, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

In countries like the US, passing a test to get a licence doesn’t mean one has learnt how how to drive. It just means one can perform the very basics. Whether it is a automobile or aircraft it take some 25 hours of practise for actions to start becoming automatic. A total of about 45 hours for a degree of of competence to develop. Some two years for a higher road-sense to develop. It doesn’t matter as to what the mechanical contrivance is, be it lath, milling machine, ship, guitar, violin, etc. To become a skilled expert, one needs some 10,000 hours. Don't rush it. Wait until you don't have to think about it. It will make for a safer driver as ones attention can then be on the look-out for the unexpected.--Aspro (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Note that the acquisition of any skill varies widely between individuals. In the UK, there's a proposal to make young learners do "up to 120 hours" of instruction before they can take their test, see Young drivers face 120 hours of lessons. Alansplodge (talk) 08:28, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Learner drivers in Western Australia must have 25 hours of lessons ("supervised driving") before sitting the practical test, then 25 hours more over at least 6 months, before getting a licence. Then 2 years as a provisional driver, with some restrictions.

tag - see Outliers (book). When I took my driving test parallel parking was not part of the course and not covered in the test. I believe this is about to change. When I was in Western Australia the standard of driving there was regarded as the world's worst. The number of fatalities involving inexperienced young drivers was horrendous. Crosswalks were a series of black and white stripes laid across the road. Anyone using them at night was dicing with death - one woman did and paid the price. The junction of the Stock Road in Melville was particularly notorious - it was protected by an octagonal red "STOP" sign but drivers would just barrel through. One fatal crash was caused by someone having removed the sign. Maybe this is the reason why the government has imposed the restrictions it has. 86.147.208.18 (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

• When I was young, you took a written test, and got a provisional license usable for six month during daylight when accompanied by a driver with a standard license. The first thing my dad did was have me drive around the church parking lot when it was empty, to get used to the brakes on a quick stop, how to back up while turning, etc.

Then we went out on the highway, and almost everything was courtesy: signalling, merging, passing, allowing others to merge and pass. (These skills have disappeared--I would say 1/3 of turners bother to signal) Driving on the right, we had to be told not to pull right before a left hand turn, someone behind us had the right to pass us, and might hit us. We had to learn to stay in the middle lane of three-lane highways, so those who wanted could pass on the left or enter/exit on the right. We learned the clockwise precedence at four-way stops.

We also had a semester of instruction at school using fake cars to learn about things like the hood popping open when you are on the highway, or whether to hit people, animals, trees, shrubbery, buildings or other cars if the breaks go out. And how to turn into a skid, which saved my life twice on the New Jersey Turnpike. Other stuff had to do with laws (35mph in unmarked residential areas, 50mph in unmarked non-residential areas, park at least 50 feet from corners, traffic signs, and fireplugs. Carry an open can of tar to throw at people who cut you off in the city.)

Finally, there was the test; 90 minutes. If you missed two items, you failed. I missed one item (I forget what, but I said "shit!", so the test giver knew I knew I had missed the point). The hardest item was parallel parking. I had practiced a few hours only, and aced it. My friend Pat had spent hours on it, and failed the test three times, even being the best student driver I knew.

A lot of this 2400 hours of practice and how to park between two hitched skittish colts stuff is just overaccreditation in the name of full bureaucratic payrolls. I have been driving for over three decades, and the courtesy element I mentioned above has been replaced with people on wifi. Texters and the like should be hanged/shot on the spot, the way they used to do horse-thieves, and for the same reason. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Or we should just normalize self-driving cars and remove that issue from the equation entirely.--WaltCip (talk) 12:18, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

References

April 9

I need more money?

Last year I was made redundant from a job I had been at for over 10 years. After nearly 6mths of being unemployed and searching for work I was offered a job with a new employer. The role offered unfortunately paid 6k less salary, has higher travel costs and expensive parking fees that weren't present at my previous firm. When accepting the role my new firm were unresponsive to salary negotiations and had me backed into a corner where I wasn't in a strong position to negotiate. As I was very keen to get back into work I accepted the position regardless of the negatives as returning to work was the most important thing to achieve. I have now been here for 6 months and I am about to reach the end of my 6mth probation review period.

My question is: "Is 6mths too early to negotiate a payrise at a new job?".

I am currently paid what I think is below market rate for my role and level of experience. I have 9 years experience in my field so classify myself as mid-level to senior for my role / field. My current salary pays 6k less than what I received from my old employer and I am now doing a more technical harder role. My salary is also 5-10k lower then other jobs I interviewed for 6mths ago when I had less technical skills and experience. I am keen not to upset them as I am grateful for the position / opportunity but I feel that they have taken advantage of the situation I was in and that a salary raise is fare. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.16.41 (talk) 14:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Get another job lined up before you ask, because if they took advantage of you once, they'll do it again. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

[Edit Conflict] If you don't ask, you likely won't get.

Remember that all companies pay as little as they can get away with consistent with getting/keeping the staff they need; they're usually legally obligated to shareholders to do so.

But, remember also that they didn't give you the job as a favour, but because you were the best available candidate: with your in-job experience, they'd much rather keep you than go to the considerable expense of recruiting a replacement who'd be an unknown quantity.

If possible, find out beforehand how your salary compares to others in the same company at a similar level, and whether raises after a 6-month review are usual in the company, or if end-of-calendar or -financial year is their standard practice.

You may find that a raise after a successful review is offered (it's a common practice); if not, raise the question, but take the approach that you are (maybe) worth a raise, not that you're entitled to one.

Consider discreetly applying for other jobs: now you're in employment, you're automatically more attractive to other employers than when you were unemployed.

All the above is advice, which on the Ref Desks we're not supposed to give, but – been there myself several times. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.249.244 (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a section about Negotiation of salary. Reasons why I won't give the OP advice what to do in that negotiation are: 1. As IP User 90.217.249.244 rightly says the Ref Desks are not here to give it. 2. If "6mth probation review" is terminology used by the employer, that implies a procedure that has probably been followed with other employees with whom the OP should by now have become aquainted enough to know what to expect. 3. How the OP says they classify themself doesn't tell us what the OP should by now have evaluated, namely their qualitative value to the employer's company. 4. Supposing the probation period leads up to a formal meeting about continued employment prospects, the WORST ways to present oneself are not to listen carefully to whatever assessment is given, or to raise the issue of salary without a) having been asked to accept a clear offer, or b) having first brought the discussion to an optimistic acknowledgment of something you can demonstrate that bodes well for what you will contribute in the future. A very critical reviewer might observe you holding a grudge about a decision that you were part of 6 months ago, or that you misspell "fair". But good luck to you. Blooteuth (talk) 22:18, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

DVD vs Blu-ray

What is the difference between DVDs and Blu-rays? 81.145.108.15 (talk) 17:56, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

The discs are both the same size as plain old CDs, but DVD stores more data than CD, and Blue-ray stores more data than plain DVD. The articles that you linked give lots of detail. Dbfirs 18:28, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

See Comparison of high definition optical disc formats. Blooteuth (talk) 21:17, 9 April 2017 (UTC)