@Demetri - You raise a good point and I agree. Nevertheless, the problem remains and I think its a question that, as a world, we need to resolve somehow, I hope we're able to do it.
@simplemen - Oh, Takis Mihas! My god, dear chap why on earth you didn't say so before? You certainly do have a very unbiased source of info on Greek facts! Congrats ;-)
@MysticFish - "putting up with a few poor immigrants?" In just a few years illegal immigrants in Greece have reached 1,5 million - in a country were total local population is a bit less than 11 million.
@Demetri - Post-war Germany was also rebuilt, literally, with men and women working with their hands among the rubbles. Thanks to hard work - and the Germans are known for it - today's Germany has become what it is. It is not easy to run the EU, with some European countries having different levels of economic security. But to put the blame on Germany for the fault of politicians and bankers of other countries mismanagements of their economy, is not only wrong, but also unjust.
@muezzin - Well, if you are a Syrian, it's still an open question what the Saudis and Qataris will do, if and when they topple Assad's regime. One thing is sure, Syrians will no longer be masters of their house.
@Demetri - Europe had already the experience of politicians of nationalist socialism in power, in Germany and Austria. Do we want such a government again? Don't forget the Nazi government under Hitler was an aggressive one, that went on to invade other countries, even as far as North Africa. Greece was under the yoke of Hitler's Germany, as you are surely aware of. I have no idea of what generation you belong, but even the young ones will have likely learned about it at school - or should have.
@Demetri - I do not defend the ideology of communism - just the human beings that were killed through natiional socialism. As I already said, 20 millions of Russian dead, whose Soviet army also liberated Nazi concentration camps where Jews, including those of Greece, gypsies, and political prisoners were incarcerated, many dying in gas chambers. Fortunately, history does not forget. Why, just the other day, the Germans removed the last remnants of the Berliner Wall that divided their country during the Cold War. One also knows there are those with selective memories, who present us today with their version of what happened in that terrible war. Fortunately though for posterity, enough objective historians have recorded those events.
@Demetri - Well, one can refer to those of "left extremism" who were tortured and imprisoned under the regime of Papadopoulos. If I remember rightly, Melina Mercouri, were she alive today, would speak out and have a lot to say. Theodorakis, who may still be around, might also be able to tell the world what happened to him and others during the Papadopoulos dictatorship. There are still enough people around who would remember all that.
@Demetri - Yes, one knows the "Alexander's star" is the bone of contention between Macedonian Greece and the Macedonia of former Yugoslavia. Both contend to represent the real Macedonia of ancient times, and the family of Philip and his son, Alexander of Macedonia.
"Those on the far-right in America are pretty extreme"
The Aryan Brotherhood (alleged in the murder of McLelland) is a criminal gang that doesn't have political representation. Golden Dawn is a political party whose supporters are believed to be responsible for the lynching of immigrants, making death threats, extortion and so on. Demetri likes to believe he can spin the context by calling these people "illegals". Whatever their residency status might be, I am sure they are protected under international and EU conventions which Greece blatantly violates.
The argument of Golden Dawn and their influence and their acting with impunity ultimately leads to the breakdown of the rule of law in Greece. You can count the steps towards the state becoming a police/military one.
@simplemen - German's today are generally a wonderful people but lets not start history in 1946 ok? Lets not forget Germany was one of world's biggest defaulters of debt... twice.
The second time around the Germans tried to take over Europe through force, they murdered millions of people in the process (including a significant portion of the Greek population), Despite this, Germany had a massive amount of its debt forgiven.... including by Greeks. Had Germans been treated like they were after Versailles and told to sell off German assets to pay for the damages they caused, which was well within the moral rights of those that had their assets destroyed and families murdered, the German state would not exist today. It is by the grace of others the German state exists today.
Greece is certainly to blame for its bad debts (shameful) but unfortunately some are currently treating it like Germany was treated after WW2 (and that without killing Greeks killing anyone much less millions and invading other countries). It's perpetually one inch away from bankruptcy because the Troika has thus far refused to lower debt principle to a manageable level.
This, along with FYROM issue, along with the illegals that are framed as "immigrant victims" is helping provide fuel to extremist groups like GD that some foreigners are literally trying to ethnically delete Greeks. Endless patronizing dehumanizing rants like you own only add fuel to the fire.
@Phlanger - Hmm, and I had a similar comment deleted on the "Is Germany too powerful" article.
Regardless, going "worldwide" means they are not "xenophobic". That's as silly as saying someone with vertigo would choose to climb to the top of a 30 storey tower to send out a message.
The Southern States of America have a history for this sort of thing and, because the oil billionaires come from this area and buy both the policies and the politicians, racism in America politics is getting in through the back door:
In the UK we seem to be aping the US, courtesy of the Atlantic Bridge 'thinktank' and the Young Britons' Foundation:
The YBF chief executive, Donal Blaney, who runs the courses on media training and policy, has called for environmental protesters who trespass to be "shot down" by the police and that Britain should have a US-style liberal firearms policy. In an article on his own website, entitled Scrap the NHS, not just targets, he wrote: "Would it not now be better to say that the NHS – in its current incarnation – is finished?"
Blaney has described the YBF as "a Conservative madrasa" that radicalises young Tories. Programmes have included trips to meet neo-conservative groups in the US and to a shooting range in Virginia to fire submachine guns and assault rifles.
@simplemen - You first need to get your facts straight to understand why GD has arisen because you have no idea what you are talking about.
a. ILLEGALS are not "immigrants'. Most of our illegals further violate laws while staying in the country from working illegally in the country, to engaging in petty crimes, to even a serious spike in violent crime. They are not all "victims' simply because they entered our country illegally
Crypto-marxist fantasies of the Guardian editorial board of a borderless world aside, in the real world immigrants first ask to immigrate then are reviewed by the state. Every country in the world, currently expects its borders respected and deports illegals.. including your own, including the countries these illegals come from, including the countries various self-described "human rights" NGOs are from (and that's with far far less illegals per capita than Greece I would add),
Frankly, I believe those that frame illegals as "immigrants' and attempts to deport them as "racism" have serious prejudices towards Greeks. They need to better look at their own country's immigration policies before pointing fingers at others.
B. Unlike some fanatics on the fringes of left and right I blame Greece entirely for its botched fiances. However, Greece only represents 2% of the EU economy. To listen to much of foreign press these last few years we have singlehandedly caused a global debt crisis and are all evil villians. When it goes on long enough, it again starts to sound less like justified criticism, and more like racism directed at Greeks.
C. The name issue with the former Yugoslavians. Why do all the patronizing knuckleheads that decided to reference the former Yugoslavians "macedonians" against Greek concerns now dishonestly try to whitewash their identity quick change from Slavs into decedents of ancient Macedonians and government sponsored threats against Greece? Since when did trying to usurp the identity of people of another state and threaten their sovereignty become "human rights"?
How do you think the British establishment would react if western France suddenly decided to reference themselves as "Ethnic Enligsh" and declare the UK "British occupied England"? This selective blindness over FYROM only comes across as more racism directed at Greeks.
In short, eventually some of our population got fed up with it and no longer trust foreigners.
Although I don't agree with GDs methods and rhetoric, I can understand their hostility. People like you that rant on and on about Greeks seem to be racist towards Greeks but you hide it behind words like :"human rights". The main reason I don't support GD myself is because GD are essentially behaving towards some foreigners like some foreigners are behaving to Greeks. I don't want to become the thing that disgusts me..
@othershore - While I understand you POV I have to disagree. One doesn't defend freedom of speech by silencing it through force. All trying to ban extremist parties like Syriza or GD will do is drive their members underground.
For instance, in Israel they banned Kach (Jewish version of GD) but there are currently former Kach members in the Knesset. In the US the Nazi party of America is perfectly legal... and small. It is precisely at these trying moments where one has to resist the urge of banning because once one gets into the game of banning, one has to both perpetually keep it up and it sets a precident for more parties being subsequently banned.
@Bill Bradley - There are worse, more hostile entities hiding behind the asset-stripping multinationals, who are using diversion politics. Is having Greece's resources and land flogged off, wholesale, to for example the Chinese or shady multinationals, preferable to putting up with a few poor immigrants?
@simplemen - You have totally misunderstood Jenny's point. She is talking about Hitler's rise to power when Germany was being punished financially by the other powers as reparations for WW1. Saying that Germany bounced back within two decades of Hitler's rise to power (1933) is one of the crassest statements I have ever seen - OK if you ignore what they got up to in 1933 -1945.
What do you propose Europeans should do? Start kicking out these people from their homes? Bravo, Bill Bradley, you are a genious. How do you think Pakistanis and Africans will respond? They will think, "our countries were stripped of resources during colonial times and now these whites want to kick us out? But this is where our children were born, they barely speak my mother's language!" Some people will become very miserable. Some will accept their destiny, but some will not, and god I am afraid to think what sort of scenario may unfold if they decide to take up revenge.
GD like many other organizations we've seen before it knows that the "good of the majority" that they purport is only a pretense, a delusion, a fallacy.
"the violation of an individuals rights means the abrogation of all rights, it delivers the helpless majority into the power of any gang that proclaims itself to be the "voice of society" and proceeds to rule by means of physical force, until deposed by another gang employing the same means" - Ayn Rand
This is a fad, GD's time will soon come to an end, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE with an ounce of being in them is going to let these sickos get away with this for long. They're a gang, bullies, scum and merely proclaim to be saviors.
"Germany, in the midst of a world depression, was being crippled by astronomic and unrealistic repayments on a war reparations schedule that they could clearly never afford, but which the nations of the Versailles conference were unreasonably insisting HAD to be met."
Jenny, Germany "bounced" back within two decades to become the engine of Europe today. You can't possibly be serious when comparing Germany with Greece. This is not the first depression Greece is going through.
Unlike Golden Dawn the Tea Party never went out on the street lynching immigrants. The Tea Party never made any death-threats to people who are on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. This happens in Greece on a regular basis. You can ask the journalist Tachis Michas.
Not some Greeks are xenophobic. Many Greeks are xenophobic. Case in point the people you purport are usurping your identity- a claim which the rest of Europeans find petulant, to say the least. Isn't that state-sponsored xenophobia, the distortion of historic facts to serve the Greek nation? My initial point was that Golden Dawn are a true representation of that portion of the Greek nation which thinks of itself as progenitors. The film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" reflects this: "When my people were developing philosophy your people were still swinging from trees." And this is the general notion in Greece.
"t is simply naive to believe that 10% of the Greek population actually turned Nazi within the space of one year. "
Same thing happened in the US with the Tea Party. Their little odd looking groups were splashed all over the news 24/7 for a while. But the protesters , in the thousands, who marched in the streets against the Iraq War were not in newspapers or TV .
You have to be able to steal elections to pull it off. It happened in 2000 and 2004 but seemed to be wearing thin by 2008. And then the complete upset in 2012 when Mitt Romney was so sure they could steal another one, he made the mistake of campaining to woo the 1% and openly showing his disdain for anyone who wasn't born rich.
This is what happens when a cabal of greedy incompetent bankers and various world leaders, back ordinary people into a corner under the justification of "recovering" their precious money from people who simply haven't got it. This is precisely the sort of economic pressure which brought Hitler to power in the inter war years.
Germany, in the midst of a world depression, was being crippled by astronomic and unrealistic repayments on a war reparations schedule that they could clearly never afford, but which the nations of the Versailles conference were unreasonably insisting HAD to be met. So ordinary Germans turned to the the extremists. So sad that Germany, in pursuit of their precious euro fiscal rules, is now treating other nations in exactly the same punitive ways - and with exactly the same political fall out.
If no one abandons this current course and accepts the inevitable death of the euro, there will soon come the modern equivalents of, extreme social deprivation, obscene wealth for a few, persecution of minorities, gas chambers, concentrations camps, and in the end another world war - probably nuclear. In other words history is repeating itself because humanity is still the same and has failed to learn and apply the lessons of our past mistakes.
I thought the The Guardian reports the news and offers opinion. Throwing around unsubstantiated rumors maligning a whole class of people and a whole healthy sector of both the Greek and the UK economy must be, but apparently is not, beneath the professional standards of this newspaper. I am referring to this: "Amid rumors of backing from wealthy shipowners, it [Golden Dawn] has succeeded in opening party offices across Greece."
When a political party does good for the country and its citizens they are called nazis. When political parties financially destroy a country they are heroes? How many people has GD killed to this date? How many people have the English killed is the past? No outsider has the right to judge GD now or ever unless you come from the land of the light...
@Pattack - at the same time , it means that more than 1 million people in Greece agree with them......unbelievable for a party , that very few Greeks have heard of , 3 years ago......i 'd suggest all the political marketeers should tear their degrees
I think that Guardian and the rest left-leaning papers should stop spreading rumours about GD.They claim they are nationalists , not racists and that's fine by me.Many Greeks , like me , will vote for them in the next elections because we 've had enough with the 2 corrupted parties(New Democracy and PASOK) that brought the proud citizens of this country to their knees.GD is the only party that presents a prompt answer to german nonsense that ordinary Greeks are corrupted and laze.....this is true for the political families and the financial elite , not the next door worker.
The insignia may be proto-Nazi, but the Greek temperament and state of mind more resemble the Milosevic era Serbs rather than disciplined Germans. The hatred of immigrants is not unlike the Serb anti-Muslim hysteria.
All it takes is an ambitious captain in some miserable Army unit, and a new junta will be born. They'll give the Russians a port or two to replace Tarsus etc.
@Bill Bradley - Peoples behavior, manner and thoughts are infinitely more important to me that the exact point of their origin on some piece of rock orbiting about 150 million KM from the sun.
This is actually one reason I strongly support the existence of parties like national socialists and plain old socialists even though I find their politics deplorable. I have observed both the far left and right are quick to try and silence opposing politcal voices through the use of force. This is hardly an indicator of a respect for freedom.
I like you, respect the idea of freedom of speech. The problem is that sometimes this speech convinces people to vote for Fascists. This means nihilism, death and misery. I don't know what the solution is, I think the answer may be that the principal must sometimes give way to pragmatism for the good of all people but I'd be open to others ideas.
@herodot - Lets also not forget the soviet socialists also "bravely" agreed to partition Poland with the nationalist socialists. (effectively amounting to a subtle attempt to ethnically erase Poles). The soviets also murdered millions of both their own citizens and armed others to murder millions more.
Stalin had no issue with sacrificing ethnic groups because the communists took anti-nationalism to extremes. They threw around ethnic identities like they are playing cards. (see non-existent Yugoslavia to see the devistating effects of their polices that ended up fuelling ethnic hatred rather than combating it)
The soviets oppressed free speech and encouraged dictatorship in country's around the world. Those that have any nostalgia over the Soviet Union are mentally ill. We'd all be like the North Koreans are today if mostly the moderate right and left hadn't fought against far leftist extremism.
Today the Guardian editorial board treat Greek communist degenerates as human rights activists. Its incredibly offensive interfering in my country's sovereign politics in this manner and deeply disturbing.
@herodot - I think those that bizarrely call the former Yugoslavians "macedonians" seem to also have a gap in their history books. (which is one of the engines behind the rise of GD). Hate exists outside of Greece too. Greeks can also be the targets of hate as well.
@herodot - You always seem to say things from the far leftist POV.
For one Papadopoulos was not "fascist" Fascist does not mean non-leftwing dictatorship. Secondly you've left out the minor part of why Greece was a democracy before Papadopoulos (who was backed by the CIA for fear the far leftists would nationalize everything like they did in many other countries).
Long forgotten is during the Greek civil war in the 1940s communists were fighting to detaching Macedonia from Greece and to make Greece part of the iron curtain. Whiel Greek communists were adoring communist dictators like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (that murdered millions of their own citizens for their ridiculous ideology), the Greeks on the right that resisted them were the ones that went on to form a democracy. We would all still be under tyrannical communist rule today if the far leftists had won the cold war (see North Korea)
There is such a thing as being in between far left and right extremism you know.
@herodot - lets not forget self-serving far left wing ideologies also flourish during times of economic crisis. No small number of those on left (although not all) like to insinuate anyone that don't subscribe to their leftist views as "fascists" or "racists". This is implicitly an attempt to ban free speech.
This is actually one reason I strongly support the existence of parties like national socialists and plain old socialists even though I find their politics deplorable. I have observed both the far left and right are quick to try and silence opposing politcal voices through the use of force. This is hardly an indicator of a respect for freedom.
@herodot - And? Many Greeks were killed by Nazis too. 20 million of so Russian died plus many more. Does this mean we should forget the tens of million of people that died due to self-righteous communist buffoons and mass murderers?
I don't agree with GD but this doesn't mean communist extremists receive a get out of jail card either. Anyone that supports communism today, after decades of evidence it produces human suffering is no less evil. Narratives claiming one's goodness doesn't feed people. The primary method to feed people is to allow them to feed themselves.
When the economy goes bad, a scapegoat must be found, and is great for propagandists for their self-serving extreme rightwing ideologies. Yes, governments may have failed badly, but everyone suffered, not only a segment of the population. But this is the moment Golden Dawn and similar movements had been waiting for, and all the elements are there to make the right mix - unemployment, asylum seekers of whom not all are criminals, corruption on a grand scale by banks and politicians, the upper ten thousand who quickly smuggled out their money in secret accounts, world-wide destabilization due to economic corruption in Wall St., and instability in general, due to ongoing conflicts in the Middle East. Effects are deadly, as one reads from many unfortunate comments here. It does not take much it seems to make worms come out of the woodwork.
Greece's neo-Nazi Golden Dawn goes global with political ambitions
Comments
@Demetri - You raise a good point and I agree. Nevertheless, the problem remains and I think its a question that, as a world, we need to resolve somehow, I hope we're able to do it.
@simplemen - Oh, Takis Mihas! My god, dear chap why on earth you didn't say so before? You certainly do have a very unbiased source of info on Greek facts! Congrats ;-)
@MysticFish - "putting up with a few poor immigrants?" In just a few years illegal immigrants in Greece have reached 1,5 million - in a country were total local population is a bit less than 11 million.
@Demetri - Post-war Germany was also rebuilt, literally, with men
and women working with their hands among the rubbles. Thanks to
hard work - and the Germans are known for it - today's Germany
has become what it is. It is not easy to run the EU, with some
European countries having different levels of economic security.
But to put the blame on Germany for the fault of politicians and
bankers of other countries mismanagements of their economy, is
not only wrong, but also unjust.
@muezzin -
Well, if you are a Syrian, it's still an open question what the Saudis
and Qataris will do, if and when they topple Assad's regime.
One thing is sure, Syrians will no longer be masters of their house.
@Demetri -
Europe had already the experience of politicians of nationalist
socialism in power, in Germany and Austria. Do we want such
a government again? Don't forget the Nazi government under Hitler was an aggressive one, that went on to invade other countries, even
as far as North Africa. Greece was under the yoke of Hitler's Germany, as you are surely aware of. I have no idea of what generation you belong, but even the young ones will have likely learned about it at school - or should have.
@Demetri -
I do not defend the ideology of communism - just the human beings
that were killed through natiional socialism. As I already said, 20
millions of Russian dead, whose Soviet army also liberated Nazi
concentration camps where Jews, including those of Greece, gypsies, and political prisoners were incarcerated, many dying in gas chambers.
Fortunately, history does not forget. Why, just the other day, the
Germans removed the last remnants of the Berliner Wall that divided
their country during the Cold War.
One also knows there are those with selective memories, who present
us today with their version of what happened in that terrible war.
Fortunately though for posterity, enough objective historians have
recorded those events.
@Demetri - Well, one can refer to those of "left extremism" who were tortured and imprisoned under the regime of Papadopoulos. If I remember rightly, Melina Mercouri, were she alive today, would speak out and have a lot to say. Theodorakis, who may still be around, might also be able to tell the world what happened to him and others during the Papadopoulos dictatorship. There are still
enough people around who would remember all that.
@Demetri -
Yes, one knows the "Alexander's star" is the bone of contention between Macedonian Greece and the Macedonia of former Yugoslavia. Both contend to represent the real Macedonia of ancient times, and the family of Philip and his son, Alexander of Macedonia.
@MysticFish -
"Those on the far-right in America are pretty extreme"
The Aryan Brotherhood (alleged in the murder of McLelland) is a criminal gang that doesn't have political representation. Golden Dawn is a political party whose supporters are believed to be responsible for the lynching of immigrants, making death threats, extortion and so on. Demetri likes to believe he can spin the context by calling these people "illegals". Whatever their residency status might be, I am sure they are protected under international and EU conventions which Greece blatantly violates.
The argument of Golden Dawn and their influence and their acting with impunity ultimately leads to the breakdown of the rule of law in Greece. You can count the steps towards the state becoming a police/military one.
@simplemen - German's today are generally a wonderful people but lets not start history in 1946 ok? Lets not forget Germany was one of world's biggest defaulters of debt... twice.
The second time around the Germans tried to take over Europe through force, they murdered millions of people in the process (including a significant portion of the Greek population), Despite this, Germany had a massive amount of its debt forgiven.... including by Greeks. Had Germans been treated like they were after Versailles and told to sell off German assets to pay for the damages they caused, which was well within the moral rights of those that had their assets destroyed and families murdered, the German state would not exist today. It is by the grace of others the German state exists today.
Greece is certainly to blame for its bad debts (shameful) but unfortunately some are currently treating it like Germany was treated after WW2 (and that without killing Greeks killing anyone much less millions and invading other countries). It's perpetually one inch away from bankruptcy because the Troika has thus far refused to lower debt principle to a manageable level.
This, along with FYROM issue, along with the illegals that are framed as "immigrant victims" is helping provide fuel to extremist groups like GD that some foreigners are literally trying to ethnically delete Greeks. Endless patronizing dehumanizing rants like you own only add fuel to the fire.
@Phlanger - Hmm, and I had a similar comment deleted on the "Is Germany too powerful" article.
Regardless, going "worldwide" means they are not "xenophobic". That's as silly as saying someone with vertigo would choose to climb to the top of a 30 storey tower to send out a message.
@simplemen - Those on the far-right in America are pretty extreme:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/mike-mclelland-district-attorney-shot-20-times_n_3001790.html
The Southern States of America have a history for this sort of thing and, because the oil billionaires come from this area and buy both the policies and the politicians, racism in America politics is getting in through the back door:
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/florida_purging_voter_rolls/
In the UK we seem to be aping the US, courtesy of the Atlantic Bridge 'thinktank' and the Young Britons' Foundation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/06/tory-madrasa-young-britons-foundation
@simplemen - You first need to get your facts straight to understand why GD has arisen because you have no idea what you are talking about.
a. ILLEGALS are not "immigrants'. Most of our illegals further violate laws while staying in the country from working illegally in the country, to engaging in petty crimes, to even a serious spike in violent crime. They are not all "victims' simply because they entered our country illegally
Crypto-marxist fantasies of the Guardian editorial board of a borderless world aside, in the real world immigrants first ask to immigrate then are reviewed by the state. Every country in the world, currently expects its borders respected and deports illegals.. including your own, including the countries these illegals come from, including the countries various self-described "human rights" NGOs are from (and that's with far far less illegals per capita than Greece I would add),
Frankly, I believe those that frame illegals as "immigrants' and attempts to deport them as "racism" have serious prejudices towards Greeks. They need to better look at their own country's immigration policies before pointing fingers at others.
B. Unlike some fanatics on the fringes of left and right I blame Greece entirely for its botched fiances. However, Greece only represents 2% of the EU economy. To listen to much of foreign press these last few years we have singlehandedly caused a global debt crisis and are all evil villians. When it goes on long enough, it again starts to sound less like justified criticism, and more like racism directed at Greeks.
C. The name issue with the former Yugoslavians. Why do all the patronizing knuckleheads that decided to reference the former Yugoslavians "macedonians" against Greek concerns now dishonestly try to whitewash their identity quick change from Slavs into decedents of ancient Macedonians and government sponsored threats against Greece? Since when did trying to usurp the identity of people of another state and threaten their sovereignty become "human rights"?
How do you think the British establishment would react if western France suddenly decided to reference themselves as "Ethnic Enligsh" and declare the UK "British occupied England"? This selective blindness over FYROM only comes across as more racism directed at Greeks.
In short, eventually some of our population got fed up with it and no longer trust foreigners.
Although I don't agree with GDs methods and rhetoric, I can understand their hostility. People like you that rant on and on about Greeks seem to be racist towards Greeks but you hide it behind words like :"human rights". The main reason I don't support GD myself is because GD are essentially behaving towards some foreigners like some foreigners are behaving to Greeks. I don't want to become the thing that disgusts me..
@othershore - While I understand you POV I have to disagree. One doesn't defend freedom of speech by silencing it through force. All trying to ban extremist parties like Syriza or GD will do is drive their members underground.
For instance, in Israel they banned Kach (Jewish version of GD) but there are currently former Kach members in the Knesset. In the US the Nazi party of America is perfectly legal... and small. It is precisely at these trying moments where one has to resist the urge of banning because once one gets into the game of banning, one has to both perpetually keep it up and it sets a precident for more parties being subsequently banned.
@Bill Bradley - There are worse, more hostile entities hiding behind the asset-stripping multinationals, who are using diversion politics. Is having Greece's resources and land flogged off, wholesale, to for example the Chinese or shady multinationals, preferable to putting up with a few poor immigrants?
@WhatTheFlipOlogy 02 April 2013 7:33pm. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Not that the (stupid Junta) Greek gov't of the day in '74 was blameless, but it hardly stems from a random bitterness that is centuries old.
@Bermondsey - And the Liberal democrats and UKIP. Have you not noticed how closely they work together?
@simplemen - You have totally misunderstood Jenny's point. She is talking about Hitler's rise to power when Germany was being punished financially by the other powers as reparations for WW1. Saying that Germany bounced back within two decades of Hitler's rise to power (1933) is one of the crassest statements I have ever seen - OK if you ignore what they got up to in 1933 -1945.
@Bill Bradley -
White Europeans were tolerated in the colonies for decades if not centuries.
@Bill Bradley -
What do you propose Europeans should do? Start kicking out these people from their homes? Bravo, Bill Bradley, you are a genious. How do you think Pakistanis and Africans will respond? They will think, "our countries were stripped of resources during colonial times and now these whites want to kick us out? But this is where our children were born, they barely speak my mother's language!" Some people will become very miserable. Some will accept their destiny, but some will not, and god I am afraid to think what sort of scenario may unfold if they decide to take up revenge.
GD like many other organizations we've seen before it knows that the "good of the majority" that they purport is only a pretense, a delusion, a fallacy.
"the violation of an individuals rights means the abrogation of all rights, it delivers the helpless majority into the power of any gang that proclaims itself to be the "voice of society" and proceeds to rule by means of physical force, until deposed by another gang employing the same means" - Ayn Rand
This is a fad, GD's time will soon come to an end, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE with an ounce of being in them is going to let these sickos get away with this for long. They're a gang, bullies, scum and merely proclaim to be saviors.
@Jenny Day -
"Germany, in the midst of a world depression, was being crippled by astronomic and unrealistic repayments on a war reparations schedule that they could clearly never afford, but which the nations of the Versailles conference were unreasonably insisting HAD to be met."
Jenny, Germany "bounced" back within two decades to become the engine of Europe today. You can't possibly be serious when comparing Germany with Greece. This is not the first depression Greece is going through.
@ernstgangst -
Unlike Golden Dawn the Tea Party never went out on the street lynching immigrants. The Tea Party never made any death-threats to people who are on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. This happens in Greece on a regular basis. You can ask the journalist Tachis Michas.
@Demetri -
Not some Greeks are xenophobic. Many Greeks are xenophobic. Case in point the people you purport are usurping your identity- a claim which the rest of Europeans find petulant, to say the least. Isn't that state-sponsored xenophobia, the distortion of historic facts to serve the Greek nation? My initial point was that Golden Dawn are a true representation of that portion of the Greek nation which thinks of itself as progenitors. The film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" reflects this: "When my people were developing philosophy your people were still swinging from trees." And this is the general notion in Greece.
gpap
"t is simply naive to believe that 10% of the Greek population actually turned Nazi within the space of one year. "
Same thing happened in the US with the Tea Party. Their little odd looking groups were splashed all over the news 24/7 for a while. But the protesters , in the thousands, who marched in the streets against the Iraq War were not in newspapers or TV .
You have to be able to steal elections to pull it off. It happened in 2000 and 2004 but seemed to be wearing thin by 2008. And then the complete upset in 2012 when Mitt Romney was so sure they could steal another one, he made the mistake of campaining to woo the 1% and openly showing his disdain for anyone who wasn't born rich.
This is what happens when a cabal of greedy incompetent bankers and various world leaders, back ordinary people into a corner under the justification of "recovering" their precious money from people who simply haven't got it. This is precisely the sort of economic pressure which brought Hitler to power in the inter war years.
Germany, in the midst of a world depression, was being crippled by astronomic and unrealistic repayments on a war reparations schedule that they could clearly never afford, but which the nations of the Versailles conference were unreasonably insisting HAD to be met. So ordinary Germans turned to the the extremists. So sad that Germany, in pursuit of their precious euro fiscal rules, is now treating other nations in exactly the same punitive ways - and with exactly the same political fall out.
If no one abandons this current course and accepts the inevitable death of the euro, there will soon come the modern equivalents of, extreme social deprivation, obscene wealth for a few, persecution of minorities, gas chambers, concentrations camps, and in the end another world war - probably nuclear. In other words history is repeating itself because humanity is still the same and has failed to learn and apply the lessons of our past mistakes.
So sad.
I thought the The Guardian reports the news and offers opinion. Throwing around unsubstantiated rumors maligning a whole class of people and a whole healthy sector of both the Greek and the UK economy must be, but apparently is not, beneath the professional standards of this newspaper. I am referring to this: "Amid rumors of backing from wealthy shipowners, it [Golden Dawn] has succeeded in opening party offices across Greece."
@herodot - well summarised.
@Bill Bradley - a real human with brains
When a political party does good for the country and its citizens they are called nazis. When political parties financially destroy a country they are heroes? How many people has GD killed to this date? How many people have the English killed is the past? No outsider has the right to judge GD now or ever unless you come from the land of the light...
@Pattack - at the same time , it means that more than 1 million people in Greece agree with them......unbelievable for a party , that very few Greeks have heard of , 3 years ago......i 'd suggest all the political marketeers should tear their degrees
@simplemen - it's obvious that don't know what you 're talking about
@Bill Bradley - tottaly agree !
I think that Guardian and the rest left-leaning papers should stop spreading rumours about GD.They claim they are nationalists , not racists and that's fine by me.Many Greeks , like me , will vote for them in the next elections because we 've had enough with the 2 corrupted parties(New Democracy and PASOK) that brought the proud citizens of this country to their knees.GD is the only party that presents a prompt answer to german nonsense that ordinary Greeks are corrupted and laze.....this is true for the political families and the financial elite , not the next door worker.
The insignia may be proto-Nazi, but the Greek temperament and state of mind more resemble the Milosevic era Serbs rather than disciplined Germans. The hatred of immigrants is not unlike the Serb anti-Muslim hysteria.
All it takes is an ambitious captain in some miserable Army unit, and a new junta will be born. They'll give the Russians a port or two to replace Tarsus etc.
@Bill Bradley - Peoples behavior, manner and thoughts are infinitely more important to me that the exact point of their origin on some piece of rock orbiting about 150 million KM from the sun.
@Demetri -
I like you, respect the idea of freedom of speech. The problem is that sometimes this speech convinces people to vote for Fascists. This means nihilism, death and misery. I don't know what the solution is, I think the answer may be that the principal must sometimes give way to pragmatism for the good of all people but I'd be open to others ideas.
@herodot - Lets also not forget the soviet socialists also "bravely" agreed to partition Poland with the nationalist socialists. (effectively amounting to a subtle attempt to ethnically erase Poles). The soviets also murdered millions of both their own citizens and armed others to murder millions more.
Stalin had no issue with sacrificing ethnic groups because the communists took anti-nationalism to extremes. They threw around ethnic identities like they are playing cards. (see non-existent Yugoslavia to see the devistating effects of their polices that ended up fuelling ethnic hatred rather than combating it)
The soviets oppressed free speech and encouraged dictatorship in country's around the world. Those that have any nostalgia over the Soviet Union are mentally ill. We'd all be like the North Koreans are today if mostly the moderate right and left hadn't fought against far leftist extremism.
Today the Guardian editorial board treat Greek communist degenerates as human rights activists. Its incredibly offensive interfering in my country's sovereign politics in this manner and deeply disturbing.
"The West was lost at Stalingrad." --Louis Ferdinand Celine
@herodot - I think those that bizarrely call the former Yugoslavians "macedonians" seem to also have a gap in their history books. (which is one of the engines behind the rise of GD). Hate exists outside of Greece too. Greeks can also be the targets of hate as well.
@herodot - You always seem to say things from the far leftist POV.
For one Papadopoulos was not "fascist" Fascist does not mean non-leftwing dictatorship. Secondly you've left out the minor part of why Greece was a democracy before Papadopoulos (who was backed by the CIA for fear the far leftists would nationalize everything like they did in many other countries).
Long forgotten is during the Greek civil war in the 1940s communists were fighting to detaching Macedonia from Greece and to make Greece part of the iron curtain. Whiel Greek communists were adoring communist dictators like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (that murdered millions of their own citizens for their ridiculous ideology), the Greeks on the right that resisted them were the ones that went on to form a democracy. We would all still be under tyrannical communist rule today if the far leftists had won the cold war (see North Korea)
There is such a thing as being in between far left and right extremism you know.
@herodot - lets not forget self-serving far left wing ideologies also flourish during times of economic crisis. No small number of those on left (although not all) like to insinuate anyone that don't subscribe to their leftist views as "fascists" or "racists". This is implicitly an attempt to ban free speech.
This is actually one reason I strongly support the existence of parties like national socialists and plain old socialists even though I find their politics deplorable. I have observed both the far left and right are quick to try and silence opposing politcal voices through the use of force. This is hardly an indicator of a respect for freedom.
@JoshuaJordan83 - I hope you're right.
@herodot - And? Many Greeks were killed by Nazis too. 20 million of so Russian died plus many more. Does this mean we should forget the tens of million of people that died due to self-righteous communist buffoons and mass murderers?
I don't agree with GD but this doesn't mean communist extremists receive a get out of jail card either. Anyone that supports communism today, after decades of evidence it produces human suffering is no less evil. Narratives claiming one's goodness doesn't feed people. The primary method to feed people is to allow them to feed themselves.
When the economy goes bad, a scapegoat must be found, and is great for
propagandists for their self-serving extreme rightwing ideologies. Yes,
governments may have failed badly, but everyone suffered, not only a segment of the population. But this is the moment Golden Dawn and similar
movements had been waiting for, and all the elements are there to make the
right mix - unemployment, asylum seekers of whom not all are criminals,
corruption on a grand scale by banks and politicians, the upper ten thousand
who quickly smuggled out their money in secret accounts, world-wide destabilization due to economic corruption in Wall St., and instability in general, due to ongoing conflicts in the Middle East.
Effects are deadly, as one reads from many unfortunate comments here.
It does not take much it seems to make worms come out of the woodwork.
@herodot -
'Greek Jews were also rounded up in Thessaloniki, in Athens and
other parts of Greece, to be sent of to concentration camps.