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[–]Leadback 141 points142 points  (60 children)

This point needs to be repeated over and over: ANZUS does not commit the US to our defence. We've sent troops to every one of their wars and have not got a firm commitment in response.

[–]flashmanwe'll all be rooned 34 points35 points  (39 children)

More information in this ABC Fact Check article.

[–]Leadback 69 points70 points  (38 children)

We have also tried and failed for the past 70 years to garner an explicit commitment by the US regarding extended nuclear deterrence. They have never publicly said they'll use the nukes to defend Australia from an invasion. We've committed thousands of lives and billions of dollars in return for two vague promises on which our entire defense policy rests.

[–]modestokun 12 points13 points  (2 children)

We are allowed to buy tactical nukes off the shelf during a time of conflict

[–]Gvxhnbxdjj2456 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Doesn't Australia have shitloads of uranium? Australia needs its own nukes

[–]modestokun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We could build one in less than six months if we wanted too.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 3 points4 points  (9 children)

Why would Australia be nuked? Targeting us would be pointless. Maybe a facility or two, at most, but not our cities. Unless we're talking a full on nuclear exchange, which is incredibly unlikely.

[–]Leadback 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Pine Gap.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I'm aware of and mentioned Pine Gap. I'm skeptical the Russians would even bother wasting a nuke on a remote Australian SIGINT facility when there's many more targets that are both closer and higher in value.

And even if they did.. Who cares? It's not Sydney.

[–]KhunPhaen 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Why do you think it would be the Russians attacking? It would most likely be China or Indonesia. I would imagine nukes or large munitions would primarily be used to knock out our airports and air defences, which would leave us vulnerable to invasion and essentially destroy our ability to project our forces abroad.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You don't need to nuke airports, but the real problem is that there's zero reason to invade the country. We have nothing to justify an invasion.

[–]KhunPhaen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with you there, and I think the best strategy for Australia into the future is to try and be the Switzerland of SE Asia and the Pacific in terms of our service economy, education sector etc. I think the most likely scenario for armed conflict with Australia would be in us forcing regime change for 'humanitarian' or other reasons on smaller pacific neighbours or perhaps border conflicts with Indonesia. In an ideal world I would like to see Australia taking a tougher stance on Indonesia's treatment of West Papua, but that will never happen...

[–]GreenTriple 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't think waste was an issue. I thought there were heaps to go round.

[–]terminal_apathy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

MAD makes everyone even remotely connected with the belligerent parties a target, that's the whole point of it. Kill as much of the enemy and their friends as possible to make sure they can't "claim" victory. This makes all military instillations, major population centres and strategic infrastructure a target.

[–]pajamil 6 points7 points  (24 children)

Good, nukes shouldn't be used if Australia is invaded. We are easily defended with conventional forces.

[–]Anticitizen-1 38 points39 points  (10 children)

Nukes are a deterrent, one that was powerful enough to prevent a direct showdown between superpowers during the Cold War.

Nobody seriously expects them to be used in a war today but the guarantee that your enemy will be nuked by your ally if an invasion is attempted will do far more to prevent that invasion than a powerful conventional army and natural defenses.

[–]Leadback 13 points14 points  (11 children)

Except for the role Pine Gap plays in SIGINT and processing data from US military satellites more generally, making it a priority target for a hypothetical invader, including with nukes.

[–]pajamil 3 points4 points  (10 children)

Pine Gap was established nearly 50 years ago, technology has come a long way since then. It's good to have but there are many redundancies in place. A country wouldn't risk nuclear war attacking it when conventional munitions could take it out.

[–]Whatsthisnotgoodcomp 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Pine Gap is a data hub for JORN. You know, the system that can detect stealth fighters in the south china sea and missile launches in southern china itself, all in real time 24/7

AFAIK, there are no redundancies for something like that. Hell, JORN is probably the only reason trump is backing down now.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 1 point2 points  (5 children)

stealth fighters in the south china

Whose stealth fighters are we trying to detect, exactly? You realise the US has much more localised assets for these things, right?

[–]Whatsthisnotgoodcomp 9 points10 points  (4 children)

No, i don't realize the US has anything like JORN, because you need something large like it in order to make non-microwave radar systems work effectively.

With JORN, Aus and the US can monitor J-20 and J-31s without needing to have a bloody carrier group chilling just off chinas coast.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 0 points1 point  (3 children)

No, i don't realize the US has anything like JORN, because you need something large like it in order to make non-microwave radar systems work effectively.

The US isn't going to rely on Australian SIGINT in a hypothetical conflict with China.

With JORN, Aus and the US can monitor J-20 and J-31s without needing to have a bloody carrier group chilling just off chinas coast.

You don't need a CSG or JORN to do that, even if either of those aircraft were in service right now.

[–]Leadback 4 points5 points  (1 child)

If they're using conventional munitions against a major US ally then nuclear war is on the table.

[–]pajamil 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's a big table, a lot of things are on it. A conventional war would be fought for Australia, unless the invaders chose to use nukes. Though I can't see them using nukes on Australia, bit wasteful.

[–]BrianBoyko 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hell, just release the emus.

[–]Belly318 6 points7 points  (11 children)

I'll say this. If our defense is against a party of Islam, we'll get some assistance. But against China, Russia... we're probably on our own.

[–]kieu_anh 6 points7 points  (7 children)

China is exercising soft power as of late. They aren't intent on invading Australia.

[–]VerminSupremo 8 points9 points  (1 child)

They are more interested in buying it.

[–]Draxbud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Why draw swords when you can just open your wallet?

[–]Belly318 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, we need to be in a place where we can try to pull a Switzerland if we need to.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 0 points1 point  (3 children)

invading Australia.

No one would ever do this because it's retarded.

[–]Leadback 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Fortunately Trump appears intent on taking China on here and now, before they consolidate more power.

[–]Belly318 14 points15 points  (0 children)

All the more reason for us to distance ourselves.

[–]Jr_films 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If China nukes Melbourne or any city they'll be attacking their own people and property.

[–]hellboy1975 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Sure, but I think in the unlikely event of someone invading Oz the USA would have our backs.

[–]gtkVegemite eating mother fucker 30 points31 points  (2 children)

What about the Emu War? The US left us to flounder at the mercy of their beaks. Never forget.

[–]nagrom7Aussie comedians have hit the jackpot 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Yeah but that was before ANZUS though, back when the US was isolationist.

[–]Draxbud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hang on. Isolationist. 'Back when'.

Do you mean like, an hour ago?

[–]Steveweing 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I don't think Trump has anyone's backs. He has disparaged NATO and America's alliance with Britain. He seems to be most aligned with Russia. Regardless of what he may or may not do, he is utterly unpredictable and a foreign country could invade Australia under a mistaken impression that he'd do nothing.

[–]hellboy1975 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Well, I don't think anyone is invading any time soon. The days of a Domination victory are gone.

[–]Steveweing 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree the risk is very low in the near future as Australia's neighbors are currently rational and peaceful. I disagree that war is gone. War and conquest are as old as humanity. Alliances and defences are preventions to war and right now Australia's is more in question ever since the 1940's.

[–]nesta420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It depends on who we are defending against.

It would also depend on what else the USA has on their plate at the time.

[–]WogButter 96 points97 points  (7 children)

/r/Australia: Experts in warfare and diplomacy.

[–]tofu_popsicle 41 points42 points  (3 children)

Yeah we should really stick to being experts in counterterrorism and investment properties.

[–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Isn't an expertise in the NBN enough?

[–]budbuds 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair that's the only issue that is blatantly got a right and a wrong side.

[–]Orangedale 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't forget about stopping the boats!

[–]drhon1337 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Well it appears that /r/The_Donald is running the show in The US....

[–]VoteRonaldRayGun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Plenty of experts in international relations have been suggesting a neutral approach for Australia.

[–]somnodoc 132 points133 points  (136 children)

We need to severely limit ANZUS and move to a neutral stance to the USA and China. We need to support all of our friends, not just the USA. Indeed, maybe we should stop seeing the USA for a little while so they can sort themselves out a little bit. A bit of personal time for them so to speak.

[–]InspectorVadget[S] 37 points38 points  (13 children)

Turnbull said it was a done deal and Trump said it was a dumb deal. It's earlier days with the Trump administration and should serve as a warning that the man is fickle and unstable. It's not just in honouring the refugee exchange deal, it's in all matters of leadership within his own country and many others. I agree and we don't need to server tires but back off with the ANZUS. I even thought Trump's behaviour may have been a (unprofessional) political tactic; basically assert dominance and push the smaller kid down in the school yard making us grateful for any little gesture of support, alliance or deals. I then remembered that this guys a reality show tv star that got his start up by been funded/supported by his father. He's treating the Oval Office like the apprentice boardroom. His administration team are equally lacking in qualifications, picked only for loyalty and under the proviso that if he says the sky is green, than so do they.

It definitely is a wake up call.

Edit:words

[–]laserframe 39 points40 points  (3 children)

I can just imagine poor Turnbull

Trump: It's a dumb deal!

Phone disconnects

Turnbull advisor: What did he say?

Turnbull: He said it was a done deal and then hung up.

[–]Scorchstar 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Tbh I dont think Turnbull knows how to take a hint about anything from anyone anyway

[–]kanyewost 3 points4 points  (1 child)

-I can just imagine poor Turnbull

poor Turnbull

I can't

[–]Kermit-Batman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the last week has not been crazy enough already, have felt the slightest twinge of sympathy for Trumble... I never thought that would happen... yet here I am.

I'd liken it to the bullied classmate, it's ok for us to pick on him, but if that fancy boy prep up on the hill starts in, no way shit cunt!! (I should note, I don't actually condone bullying in any form.)

I get why Trumble has all but denied it, I wish he hadn't, one thing Trumble is not, is stupid. I had hoped he would be able to register a smarter insult diplomatically at the very least. Perhaps that would just be sillier or lead to a tit for tat type thing anyway.

At the very end of writing this, I realised I've had a big woosh over my head moment as well. Fuck... :)

[–]somnodoc 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Done deal and dumb deal sound kind of the same, and trump is known for not speaking very clearly. Perhaps he said Dumb and Malcolm heard done.

[–]RevoranBeyond the black stump 15 points16 points  (7 children)

Trump's behaviour may have been a (unprofessional)

That's nothing. This is the most powerful man in the world and he hops on Twitter every damn day to whinge with bad grammar about his, life like a 13 year old.

He is a fucking embarrassment, and that's putting aside his actual politics.

[–]Jarmatus 8 points9 points  (6 children)

whinge with bad grammar about his, life

What an ironic place for Muphry's Law to strike.

[–]RevoranBeyond the black stump 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ha. I should've known better. Damnit.

[–]Greedeater 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Muphry's Law, hmm?

[–]Jarmatus 1 point2 points  (1 child)

[–]Greedeater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hah, I'll be buggered. TIL!

[–]newbstarr 12 points13 points  (21 children)

Limit how? Why does it need to change? The article's argument is that the perception of its usefulness to Australians is vastly inflated in Australian minds. That seems to hold woth my miniscule sampling of the population. The evidence is such that right wing governments 90 the past pathetically called on the alliance provisions for stupid shit they generally got themselves Into and didn't have the balls or brains to deal with. This post ww2 logic never made sense outside of paying protection money and trying to get in good with the empire. We are a middling pieces in more than 200 countries and a down territories they oversee. We are not special to them and pretending we are isn't going good to change it.

[–]Rameses_2 13 points14 points  (17 children)

We love Australians here in America. Although when I lived in Australia, it was during the end of the Bush years, and I was treated so poorly that I had to tell people I was Canadian for 1.5 years. 80% of Australians were amazing, nicer than anyone else...but that 20% would berate me unprovoked. I don't think Americans realize that many Australians do not like them.

[–]nagrom7Aussie comedians have hit the jackpot 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Yeah Americans weren't really popular during the Bush years here (they had dragged us into a war we had nothing to do with and cost our country lives), but after a few years of Obama that animosity slowly went away. Now that Trump is president, it's probably going to come back, with a vengeance.

[–]killersteak 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I like to imagine we'd be sympathetic to Americans (though I did offhand hear my parents say 'so that's what they really think' when Trump won).

[–]nagrom7Aussie comedians have hit the jackpot 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think some people would be, but at the same time this is the second time in 12 years they've elected a moron so some people's patience will probably have already been exhausted.

[–]TooSubtle 11 points12 points  (0 children)

After electing Abbott I'm not so sure we can take that high ground anymore.

[–]jamesesc 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I have met many Americans in my travels and have a few American friends, and I find that a particular arrogance is not uncommon. This generalisation is however fairly common across Australia, whether it be true or not.

This could be a contributor for those who were rude for no particular reason.

[–]nesta420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bloody seppos. Your loud and cocky and you have irritating accents.

Also you come over here and shag all our women.

[–]pajamil 4 points5 points  (7 children)

but that 20% would berate me unprovoked

And that 20% inhabit this subreddit.

[–]modestokun 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Proudly

[–]NotAWittyFucker 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Proud of being the kind of person who would berate someone unprovoked because they were born in a country which makes foreign policy decisions you don't like? Aaand it's upvoted.

Internet Fuckwad Theory in all its glory, folks.

[–]ukojizai 0 points1 point  (2 children)

As a South African, I've felt mixed messages about Australians like 'us' as well. A lot don't care but then a lot do. It's kind of normal I suppose in terms of natural territoriality. I wouldn't get caught up on it. It doesn't help that Canada is always so damn welcoming though!

[–]Whatsthisnotgoodcomp 4 points5 points  (1 child)

You guys are aight, you're helping us out with gigantic telescopes and play cricket

[–]ukojizai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We have some amazing jerky too - Biltong as it's known, go get some - u won't have Australian jerky again :p

[–]Transientmind 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yeah, they can build naval bases on just about any tiny Asian island they like. The only thing we've really got that they want is Pine Gap.

[–]SpiderMcLurk 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hard to run a logistics chains through a tiny island with no deep water port.

RAAF base Tindal is also important

[–]outbackqueen 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Australia is in a 'Global Partnership' with NATO, it's not smart to give that up just because a nutcase moved into the White House.

[–]ghostofwu 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Like a bunch of chumps we've followed the US blindly into shitty, immoral, and unnecessary wars, given up an embarrassing amount of sovereignty, all but ceded land at their will to have it.

[–]thenewkumden 23 points24 points  (14 children)

Journalists are hard at it writing complete and utter shit as usual. Trump ran a campaign on anti immigration, he now inherits something that would discredit his stance and is obviously pissed about it. He will beat his chest so it's known he didn't want this deal, it will eventually get through and then most importantly we won't be going to war with America like the media scrubs are writing. An alliance destroyed by a pissy domestic policy issue. No.

[–]Rubiginous 10 points11 points  (11 children)

Maybe some of us don't want to be tied to someone like this

With American protection, we are always tied to their whims of their candidates.

Trump has even implied that he considers the money America spends on defending allies to be parasitic.

Even with the refugee deal, he said we were "taking advantage" of America. After thousands of Australians have died fighting in their turf wars to stop communism or get oil.

There is nothing wrong with Australia using this as opportunity to become more self sufficient. If they can elect someone like this, someone that tweets foreign policy and can't string a sentence together, maybe we should start becoming more assertive.

Increasing military capabilities creates jobs and growth! Literally the best thing ever for the LNP.

[–]My_Vegemite 3 points4 points  (2 children)

But we are taking advantage of the US. Our prosperity is based on open maritime trade lanes. Something which we have to spend exactly jack on because the US Navy does it for us. Despite the lack of a treaty.

[–]Rubiginous 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Right.

So if America doesn't want to do things like this anymore (and Bannon seems to make comments about warring with China) then doesn't it make sense for us to have a backup plan that doesn't involve the US?

I doubt he'll get the go ahead to war with China (no one wants that) but the US administration seems to be doing a pretty good job of antagonizing world leaders.

It's not a bad idea for Australia to start looking into long term protection goals.

The USA and our retarded government seem to want to steam right ahead into global warming which will be devastating for global stability (including food sources and water resources). It makes sense for us to not be reliant on another country if/when push comes to shove.

[–]My_Vegemite 0 points1 point  (0 children)

then doesn't it make sense for us to have a backup plan that doesn't involve the US?

There is not other option apart from the US Navy.

Maybe Britain would have the 2nd strongest navy.

[–]modestokun 1 point2 points  (7 children)

In a sense he is right. The U.S only made all these commitments because they wanted to build an alliance against communist expansion. Now the USSR is gone. So there's nothing in it for them.

I think trump is actively seeking to dismantle these arrangements and the next U.S president won't revive them.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]tofu_popsicle 20 points21 points  (29 children)

    The US has elected a president who is advised by fascists, propelled by the new brand of fascism that is internet cool with its memes and its hilarious pejoratives (lol, cuck). It comes in an environment ripe for fascism to be fomented, where banks have been bailed out for a crisis of their own making but everyone else has left out to dry in a country with nowhere near the level of welfare support that we enjoy. It's moving steadily towards fascism, and I'm not using the word loosely, I mean textbook fascism. They're ticking off items from Umberto Eco's features of fascism like crazy.

    [–]fadetoblack944 2 points3 points  (28 children)

    The citizens of the US elected him based on his election campaign and he is delivering on his promises, did you see what happened in UC Berkeley recently with the "peaceful" protesting?. If anything its the "left" that is throwing the tantrum for not getting there own way.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 6 points7 points  (27 children)

    Yeah, his election campaign which was successful because fascism is gaining momentum in the US.

    I said nothing about the left being peaceful nor that they should be. If anything, in the current situation, they should be anything but.

    [–]maccahac 0 points1 point  (26 children)

    The point above clearly states that Trump was elected as president. Therefore your post about fascism is incorrect. Fascism requires a dictator. Trump was elected and therefore isn't fascist. What you're proposing is actually terrorism; using violence to further political motives. Please read more about communism and you'll see plenty of fascism.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 10 points11 points  (25 children)

    lol, ok. I'm not really sure what communism has to do with anything here, but communist governments in history have tended to be totalitarian. That gives it something in common with fascism, but doesn't mean they're the same thing. Nation states based on communist ideology without a totallitarian government are usually called socialist instead. You could read about communism and fascism yourself to understand the distinction.

    Fascism usually begets a dictator but doesn't require the dictator to take power entirely by force or any particular way. And I did say the US was on its way to fascism, not there yet.

    I also specifically referenced a certain definition of fascism through Umberto Eco. Here are the features of fascism as written about by Eco that I think we're already seeing in the US:

    • fear of difference, the appeal against intruders and the use of outsiders as a common enemy to unite the nation against
    • constantly harping on plots and schemes by the enemy, and that the enemy has humiliated the people of the nation
    • a leader using simple sentences with a poverty of vocabulary
    • displays of machismo, and disdain for women and non-heterosexuals
    • valuing action for action's sake and devaluing thinking as an emasculating thing to waste time on, distrust of intellectuals
    • making disagreement a kind of treason or at least taboo (eg: gag orders)
    • appeal to social frustrations, particularly of the middle class, and again bringing that enemy into focus to blame those frustrations on
    • selective populism, which Eco even specifically says could eventually come about through the internet "in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People."
    • contempt for the weak and for pacifism (at least against the all-important enemy)
    • being ostensibly against corrupt parliamentary government as a pretext to then overthrow that model of governance

    In his conclusion he points out:

    It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, “I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares.” Life is not that simple.

    The "alt-right" has very successfully launched a comeback that isn't aimed at their usual demographic of alienated loners, but has managed to be more trendy, to push a rather ironic image of rationality and critical thought, while depicting the left as "cucks" and other misogynistic insults. As a result, many people claiming to be proponents of free speech have voted in a man who has issued gag orders in his first week in power and not said a word about the contradiction there, someone claiming to intend to "drain the swamp", but showing blatant nepotism and cronyism in his own dealings. They could not get to this point of "selective populism" if they continued on their usual StormFront branding. So riding a wave of hysteria over Islamic terrorism and bitterness over the GFC, they've cleaned up their image, gathered a much bigger following, but still have the same goals in mind.

    What I'm proposing is not terrorism at all. I think as the Trump administration dismantles the executive and judicial branches of government, and as civil and human rights are violated, there should be push back, and it would be naive to think that all this will go down peacefully on either side. Trump has not been elected God - he's been elected to office with a very specific mandate and set of limitations, and when he exceeds those limitations, it is entirely democratic for people to fight back.

    [–]OnlyBuilt4AfricaLynx 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Do you really think internet commentators want to think this much

    [–]tofu_popsicle 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Commentators? Or commenters?

    Doesn't matter. Research shows I'm not convincing anyone who doesn't already agree with me, not unless I start appealing to this guy's identity and emotions, and that's just gross.

    Fascists gonna fash.

    [–]Time_to_Drink 45 points46 points  (15 children)

    I'm just going to put this out there: I don't think the alliance is at risk, and those suggesting it is are once again looking at it from the narrow prism of domestic politics and the stupid stupid politics of asylum seekers Australia has.

    • This was a dumb deal. Trump is right to think/say that.

    • If these people are illegal immigrants, they should be deported back to their own countries. THAT IS A PERFECTLY LEGAL THING FOR A NATION STATE TO DO.

    • That they have not, and that we are seeking resettlement for them in another safe country, and that the deal is being call "The Refugee Deal" by the government and media, is telling.

    • If they are refugees, THEY ARE OUR PROBLEM. We need to resettle them in Australia.

    • If this conflicts with domestic politics and the governments policies, then the policies have to change...

    • ...or we leave the international conventions that require us to do this. I'm guessing that no one in politics wants to deal with this toxic option.

    Putting the ANZUS 'alliance' at risk because our pathetically weak political class cannot solve a very simple problem amongst themselves in down right irresponsible. It is pretty clear that both sides of politics need to become far more realistic about what it is Australia can achieve on its own with regards to boat arrivals on our northern border.

    The US alliance is more than a security guarantee, this is far too simple a way of looking at it. The US is our major arms supplier, it guarantees all of our vital shipping lanes, it guarantees the financial system we rely on for our prosperity, it provides vital intelligence information, etc.

    People keep saying "look to China". This misinterprets China's place in the global system. The US and China are not interchangeable, not in anyway. If America stops providing the above things, China isn't filling the void...there will just be a void. Its a position we have only been in for a brief time during the beginnings of WWII. It was not pretty.

    [–]Rubiginous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    What's wrong with Australia making a move to fill "the void"?

    For how long do we play little brother to the US in hopes of protection?

    50 years? 100 years?

    At what point does Australia start looking at being responsible for its own defence?

    Superpowers can fail, the current administration believes that the money spend outside of America on allies is parasitic and that America is "being taken advantage of".

    I don't think you can say Trumps rhetoric is just rhetoric anymore. He's consistently stuck with his own opinions before and after the election.

    Not to mention (and I know Australian politicians are doing the same) they're climate change deniers. Climate change is considered a massive threat to global stability.

    [–]CrayolaS7Off Chops 12 points13 points  (3 children)

    I can't upvote this enough, this wouldn't be an issue at all if we didn't have legitimate refugees indefinitely detained in a concentration camp.

    [–]Time_to_Drink 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    Like, it was bad enough when we decided to throw the Indonesian bilateral relationship under the bus for this, but now America? The unreality has to end.

    [–]McRibsAndCoke 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Political correctness is sending us all backwards.

    [–]Gvxhnbxdjj2456 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Ahem... it's called an alternative forward. Don't offend backward's feelings.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    If all we've done for the US so far is not enough to uphold a previously negotiated deal of 1200 refugees then we have no reason to have faith in this alliance for anything.

    We've had more Australians injured or killed in US-led wars in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan, with several times the number of personnel sent there to assist, than the number of people we've asked them to vet and then maybe accept.

    The wrongness of our treatment of refugees doesn't really excuse the disrespect shown.

    China had economic interests in Australia. No country is doing anything out of the goodness of their hearts - there's no less reason to trust China to help us out of mutual interest than anyone else, and possibly more reason than with the US.

    [–]smoke_that_harry 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    If these people are illegal immigrants, they should be deported back to their own countries. THAT IS A PERFECTLY LEGAL THING FOR A NATION STATE TO DO.

    I'm pretty sure it isn't if they're fleeing persecution. We're signatories to various treaties and conventions at the UN regarding refugees.

    [–]Time_to_Drink 9 points10 points  (2 children)

    I would there is a difference, legally, between refugees and illegal immigrants. To suggest otherwise is part of the problem. You should read my whole comment.

    [–]nagrom7Aussie comedians have hit the jackpot 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    There is, and all the people involved in the deal have been vetted and found to be refugees, not illegal immigrants.

    [–]Time_to_Drink 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    So we are in furious agreement?

    As an aside, you know there will eventually have to be a compromise solution for boat arrivals. Most voters won't accept a porous border, but we have to treat people humanely and according to our responsibilities. Arguing with someone who agrees with will progress this whole thing exactly zilch.

    [–]pajamil 1 point2 points  (4 children)

    If these people are illegal immigrants, they should be deported back to their own countries. THAT IS A PERFECTLY LEGAL THING FOR A NATION STATE TO DO.

    Iran isn't accepting failed asylum seekers who don't return voluntarily.

    [–]Time_to_Drink 8 points9 points  (3 children)

    And there you have it, they are in fact persecuted. Problem solved.

    [–]trashytraveller 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    It is reasonable to question the reliability of the Australia-US alliance. Often though it is people on the left that are questioning the alliance more than those on the right side of politics.

    Do people recognise that if we walk more independently from America we will need to increase military spending? We think that in the event that we are attacked, there is a 95% chance (for argument's sake) of the US coming to our defense and therefore we can factor in the value of US military assets in any calculation. If the odds of America coming to assist is more like 30% or 40%, then surely, we need to lift military spending to plug that deficiency.

    It's just that people who are most critical of the alliance tend to be people on the left who also wish to spend less on military hardware. Personally, I am in favour of the Australia-US alliance in part because it means we do not need to waste money on additional military hardware. This means more money for other things, which on the left might be welfare, social services etc, and on the right might mean lower taxes than what would otherwise be the case.

    [–]AnAdderThatWasBlack 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    It isn't just the reliability of the alliance that's seen as an issue, its the fact that it places Australia in a very distinct "faction" geopolitically inhibiting our ability to have constructive diplomatic relationships with our neighbours. Being part of an alliance with the US means that their interests become our interests and any enemies of the US become our enemies. By becoming more self sufficient in terms of military capability we can become more neutral and more able to pursue our own interests which is probably the better deal since the US wants us to increase our military spending anyway.

    [–]a-bso 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    I am in favour of the Australia-US alliance in part because it means we do not need to waste money on additional military hardware.

    I'm an American who was disgusted when heard about the phone call and all, and have been reading through your sub. I found this particularly interesting because what I quoted above is part of the reason why Trump was elected. A good amount of the American populace is tired of foreign spending, when a good amount of our country is falling apart. The Australian alliance (and it should be we have dragged you into a multitude of questionable wars) is held especially close with Americans along with the UK, but it's the spending literally across the world that adds up, when US citizens are suffering. I honestly don't have a solution for whats going on in the US but whats going on is obviously not the answer. I truly think these next 2 years are gonna show that this America 1st rhetoric is fucking dumb, but we shall see. Either way hope you guys don't lose total faith in the states.

    [–]trashytraveller 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    The value goes both ways. When people of a common vision pool resources it is easier to achieve. So it is cheaper for Australia to be allied with the US, but it is also cheaper for the US to have allies. I suspect Europe free rides on the US via NATO, but I don't think Australia is in that category. I think as a general point, making partners lift their game can be a good thing. Having said that allies need their partner to be rational.

    [–]a-bso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I'm not saying that Australia hasn't done their fair part, no one really has a problem with Australia which is why everyone is kinda shocked by this. I think you could probably gather that by Sen. McCain's statement right after the news came out. But yeah, I didn't mean to imply Australia free rides, but as you said there is certainly a good portion of the world that does it's just that our dipshit president seems incapable of handling it in a civilized diplomatic way.

    [–]Scrumptical༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give NBN 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    In a way, Trump ruining relations with Australia is a good thing. We should've told the USA to fuck off long ago. The only reason we're in an alliance is because they had our back in WWII, and that was 60 goddamn years ago. Now they just want to dump their troops at various bases built on our land. Nah, fuck em, we don't need the US or to follow them into every pointless war.

    Instead, we should take a leaf out of NZ's book and stand up for ourselves.

    [–]too_much_ant_poison 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Trump doesn't give a shit about relations, he only cares about control. Guaranteed, if there's another war while Trump's in charge and we don't blindly follow the US into it, he'll declare Australia an enemy.

    [–]migshark 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    It isn't a matter of getting closer to China, Russia, or Europe, it's a matter of independence. We can't rely on our leaders representing us when they have to bend over for foreign interests, just to keep us safe.

    If you have nukes, bullies will pick softer targets - as has been the case since their invention.

    [–]Jcit878 19 points20 points  (2 children)

    we should just adopt the kiwi strategy. lay low and just dont antagonise other nations

    [–]thenewkumden 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    And win Rugby. Forever.

    [–]Foxodi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Kiwi strategy works because of their geographic location. It would work for us for now, but in a few decades time Indonesia is going to be a regional powerhouse, and we'll be kicking ourselves for not developing friendly relations earlier.

    [–]caribwa 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    No one should act surprised at what Trump does and says.

    Unfortunately what we have seen as the constant stand of the Liberal Party is that politics trumps principle each and every time.

    Why should Australia be in this position of begging the mad man? Simple answer because Turnbull and the Liberal party will lose face and admit they were wrong if this deal falls through. Trump was elected on an anti immigration stance and it LOOKS BAD that he is accepting "illegal immigrants" from another country.

    Time and time again it has happened. Carbon Tax, NBN, Malaysia deal for refugees. This deal is way too important to Turnbull and co which begs the question - what are they willing to commit Australia to behind closed doors to ensure this deal goes through at all costs?

    The Australian people would have more confidence in a leader that was honest. If Turnbull had come out and said the deal might not happen because of a change in administration and policies then he would at least save some face here but nah he is the same gutless and spineless leader we elected. Will never change.

    [–]sheabutter63 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Fat ass-Hockey should have been preparing and advocating for this deal for ages, he is to blame for this. He's been too busy eating at All You Can Eats in Washington. Trumble cant even get his corruption right and obviously isnt even known in Washington.

    [–]maccahac 22 points23 points  (84 children)

    America is one of our closest friends and culturally we are almost identical. On the other hand China has a poor human rights record, is communist, manufactures and imports ice and other drugs into our communities and buys our houses, companies and ex public infrastructure. Why on earth would we want anything to do with China? Whether it's Obama or Trump, Australia will always support America.

    [–]ghostofwu 58 points59 points  (32 children)

    The US has a terrible human rights record, domestically and in terms of foreign policy.

    [–]Spudtron98 12 points13 points  (16 children)

    Yeah, but last I checked they didn’t go after a bunch of uni students with tanks.

    [–]ConemanTheBongbarian 11 points12 points  (5 children)

    [–]Pragmatic_Shill 1 point2 points  (4 children)

    Almost half a century ago, for fuck's sake.

    [–]ConemanTheBongbarian 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    Sure. Im just wondering what the time limit is here. Does it stop counting when the people who ordered it are no longer in power or something else?

    [–]Pragmatic_Shill 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    You tell me. Do you still hold the German government in low esteem for actions committed back in the thirties and forties? At least there's a recognition in the US that Kent State was a tragedy. But it's pretty shocking that you're engaging in whataboutism when comparing a tragedy of four deaths and nine injuries to a massacre of possibly a couple of thousand, which is still denied and/or swept under the rug by the government.

    Are you that blinded by an ideological hatred for the United States that you actually think Australia would be better off if we lived under a Chinese umbrella than an American one?

    [–]ConemanTheBongbarian 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Well I wont make the mistake of asking you to clarify your position again, apparently the only thing it warrants is "no u" followed by a strawman.

    Pointing out the the US shouldnt be held up as a role model doesnt imply support of China, but apparently Im the one blinded by ideology.

    [–]Pragmatic_Shill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    When have I ever come across as blinded by ideology?

    [–]ghostofwu 3 points4 points  (9 children)

    One good thing for Americans about an armed populace is that they've had to shift that blatent kind of stuff overseas. I think this "race to the bottom" of whose human rights are worst is stupid anyway. US, Australia, and China all have more to be ashamed about than proud of with their humanitarianism.

    [–]pajamil 1 point2 points  (8 children)

    What does Australia have to be ashamed about?

    [–]ghostofwu 5 points6 points  (6 children)

    Treatment of Indigenous Australians is a huge blot on our history, and a continuing disgrace. Ignoring the plight of our closest neighbours, for instance West Papua (and we should be doing a shit tonne more for PNG, Solomon Islands etc.). Most of the wars we've signed up for after WWII (with some exceptions like East Timor). Treatment of our environment like the GBR. Shameful state of our welfare system, especially as it addresses disability. Government corruption at the national, state, and local levels. Manus/Nauru/Christmas Island debacle. Domestic violence. Gay marriage. State of most of our mass media outlets. The list goes on.

    [–]wonder_about_mel 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    There's nothing shameful about marriage being between a man and a woman.

    Marriage has always been discriminatory, you can't marry your sister/brother/cousin. Australia has been a Christian country.

    Whatever your extremist liberal views you must accept that "gay marriage" is an incredibly radical departure for a country in which marriage has always been between a man and a woman.

    [–]ghostofwu 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    It is well beyond the time to move past irrelevant and outdated religious ideas dictating what kinds of relationships can exist between consenting adults. The idea that something should remain unchanged simply because it has been that way in the past is simply unsound.

    If Christians or people of other religions are upset by the idea of their cultural tradition being used in a way they agree is incorrect, they may have a valid claim on that point. But "gay marraige" is a bit of a misnomer anyway, and a civil partnership recognised by the state which grants same-sex attracted couples the same rights as heterosexual couples have in marriage is, in my opinion, adequate and uncontroversial. Homosexual relationships have been around for as long as heterosexual ones, and the certainly predate marriage as we know it today.

    Marrying your sibling is a different issue because of the public health issues, and personal wellbeing issues tied up with it. This is because of the way we function genetically, not because of an abstract moral issue.

    [–]wonder_about_mel 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    It is well beyond the time to move past irrelevant and outdated religious ideas dictating what kinds of relationships can exist between consenting adults.

    I don't disagree.

    The idea that something should remain unchanged simply because it has been that way in the past is simply unsound.

    I would give extreme reverence to deeply-entrenched traditions before I took a swinging axe to them.

    civil partnership recognised by the state which grants same-sex attracted couples the same rights as heterosexual couples have in marriage is, in my opinion, adequate and uncontroversial

    I 100% agree. I believe that you can legislate any kind of sexual union you desire - just don't call it marriage. If marriage offends the state, then abolish it, but don't hijack it.

    Marrying your sibling is a different issue because of the public health issues

    The complexity that "gay marriage" introduces is that it then abolishes the idea that marriage can be used as an environment for procreation - with all the public health issues that involves.

    [–]beanbaconsoup 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Not sure if you're joking, our offshore processing of refugees. Sexual, physical abuse, lack of medical care. http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/getfacts/seekingsafety/asylum/offshore-processing/briefing/

    Not to mention the treatment of indigeneous Australians

    [–]tracknoreply 27 points28 points  (10 children)

    They are a third of our trade

    [–]drhon1337 14 points15 points  (1 child)

    Most importantly is that the trade we run with China puts us at a trade surplus in comparison with the US which is a trade deficit.

    TLDR; we actually make money from the Chinese while losing money to the Americans.

    [–]downvoteninja84 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    Really? Is it that high still?

    [–]Pragmatic_Shill 20 points21 points  (11 children)

    What's up with the Chinese apologists in this sub replying to you? Neither the US nor China are perfect, but the US is by far the better option. Chinese people are not afforded the same rights and freedoms that Americans are in their society.

    Edit: Furthermore, the Chinese military is woefully lacking (especially their navy) compared to the US. The US spends more on military than China and Russia combined.

    [–]el_Di4blo 10 points11 points  (8 children)

    China couldn't even invade Taiwan and people here are already laying down in surrender and how we need to snuggle up with China, its actually ridiculous

    [–]WogButter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    It's because the song of Communism is a beautiful one.

    [–]Dial_A_Dragon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    but the US is by far the better option

    B-but they elected a meanie head!

    [–]maccahac 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Absolutely. Looks like we've already been invaded.

    [–]Buck-Nasty 25 points26 points  (1 child)

    China has a poor human rights record

    In the last 15 years America slaughtered a million people in an illegal invasion of Iraq.

    [–]Ununnilium272 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Drone strikes on civilians and torture, not exactly an example to follow.

    [–]pajamil 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    You're right, there's nothing to bind us together. 'Allies' that share nothing inevitably turn on each other.

    [–]KMartCastro🚩 15 points16 points  (9 children)

    China has a poor human rights record

    Australia runs offshore concentration camps, closes Aboriginal communities, defunds legal aid and social services and issues false debts to current and former welfare receivers.

    is communist

    It's capitalist.

    manufactures and imports ice and other drugs into our communities

    So do our bikies.

    buys our houses, companies and ex public infrastructure

    We also have rentseekers.

    [–]disposable_ted 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I don't agree with everything our country does, but I don't know how you can even compare the scale of our human rights record with China.

    The Centrelink debacle sucks. You know what sucks way more? Being unemployed in China.

    Or that the current situation with the Aboriginal people, which is very sad and complicated, is on the same level of sheer brutality of the Chinese governments mistreatment of it's own people.

    We're not a perfect country, but we don't point hundreds of missiles at New Zealand to intimidate them to stay in line, and claim it as part of our own country. We at least openly try to discuss the wrongdoings of our past, instead of censoring every online trace of it.

    We can come on reddit, and say fuck Australia, fuck our leaders, fuck capitalism, and not look over our shoulder in fear that we will disappear in the middle of the night. I just don't see how the scale of our problems as a nation really compare.

    [–]pajamil 7 points8 points  (7 children)

    Australia runs offshore concentration camps, closes Aboriginal communities, defunds legal aid and social services and issues false debts to current and former welfare receivers.

    Do we harvest organs from political prisoners?

    [–]plainwayne 18 points19 points  (2 children)

    We've removed Shorten's balls.

    [–]WolfySpice 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    But who was the donee?

    [–]Transientmind 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Based on current performance, at least we can rule out Turnbull as a recipient.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    No but we are friends with a country that ran a torture facility in Abu Ghraib, basically converting regular citizens into terrorists for ISIS and Al Queda to capitalise on. And Guantanamo.

    [–]pajamil 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    I think we've identified the lesser of two evils.

    [–]ppp__ 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    There is so much wrong with your post. I don't even know where to start. You're wrong or severely misguided on every assertion you made.

    [–]AusSco 7 points8 points  (7 children)

    Agreed.

    Although ANZUS does have benefits the US, I think we get a lot more out of it than they do.

    [–]drhon1337 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Do we? When was the last time America came to our aid when we needed it?

    [–]numberwangisworld 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Ok let's cut ties with China. Australia becomes 3rd world country overnight.

    [–]Sigbi 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    holy shit at these completely clueless comments, i guess the average Australian is just as sheltered as people say.

    [–]Travellinoz 6 points7 points  (6 children)

    Well it kind of has. We have a complex relationship with the US and we depend on each other. We have each other's backs but there are military bases (strategic geo locations), intelligence agreements, trade deals and many other alliances in place that can guarantee as much as you can really guarantee a security guarantee. Another uninformed SMH article desperate for a read by sensationalising misinformation.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    How do they have our back?

    [–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    Protection & enforcement of trade routes, intimate cooperation in the defence industry, sharing of information assets, localised military forces as force deterrent.. the list goes on.

    [–]tofu_popsicle 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    But this is saying that it isn't guaranteed, which is a problem now that Trump is in, because he may well just say fuck it. What level of confidence can we have in them having our back?

    [–]LlaineLockheed Martin shill 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Who cares. No one is gunning to attack us, let alone invade us. And if they do, the ADF is well equipped to handle it.

    People get uppity over the US having our back, but the reality is we don't need it. Australia doesn't go picking fights and has no enemies in our region.

    [–]Travellinoz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    From his response post Turnbull phone call once he was properly informed, it doesn't seem that he will do that.

    [–]FreakySpook 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    It would be interesting to see what South East Asia looks like if the US Seventh Fleet wasn't permanently based out of Japan.

    It's easy to criticize the ANZUS relationship and call for it to be wound back/scrapped but we have enjoyed relative stability and growth in our region for over 70 years now.

    Australia is just one small cog in the South East Asia/South Pacific, some times we forget that and overestimate our importance.

    [–]LifeIsBizarre 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Lets just start filling ICBMs with red-backs and huntsmans.
    Then let the world know if they mess with us, they are getting a booting!

    [–]Ever-Frost 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    We should definitely have our own nuclear weapons for exactly this reason.

    [–]blackhuey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Trump isn't the USA. Whether it takes 8 days or 8 years, eventually he'll be gone.

    Malcolm needs to dig out his balls from wherever the LNP right are keeping them, and start playing Trump the same way Putin is.

    Open up those Five Eyes dossiers, find some dirt and start twisting.

    [–]Youtoo2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    From an American... Trump is a cunt, hopefully his heart will explode and he will die soon.

    [–]Therealprotege 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    American here that just came to say you guys can't rely on us anymore we have an easily manipulated man-baby as president so any alliance you think you had is subject to change no matter what Trump says. If he says he will honor them I highly recommend you do not believe him because he has been on every side of every issue at one point or another.

    [–]ManicMuffin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    NATO and ANZUS have never really been about protecting each other in case of war. If you look at movements in France and Germany during the cold war, the idea of "better red than dead" shows you that people really don't want to fight large scale world wars anymore.

    Treaties like that serve as tripwires. A way to raise the stakes of any minor aggression astronomically so that it becomes unfeasible for an enemy state to consider.

    [–]Luckyluke23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    it hasn't. but would you piss them off? i wouldn't

    [–]wobbegong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    But unless you think we can bet the country on Donald Trump suddenly developing steady judgement and firm goodwill...

    I wouldn't bet a dried dingos donger that trump will suddenly develop good sense let alone the fucking country.

    [–]ukojizai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm not so sure that anyone would come to our aid should something go down, I mean we have a capable military and a harsh climate/landscape with deadly serpents and oversized rodents and the mud crabs... we have massive mud crabs!

    [–]The4th88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Here's our defence strategy:

    Firstly, do not cut ties or distance ourselves from the USA. Instead, target America with concentrated tourism campaigns. Bring their students over here on exchange. Remind their armed forces that we bled for them in several wars. We want as many americans as possible to have positive first hand experiences here so in the event of attack, the american population will want to help us.

    Turnbull announces increased funding and a job program within the ADF. Increases the ability of the ADF to defend our interests, whilst disguising the real intent of increasing our defensive capacity.

    We open more trade with SE Asia and America. We want all of our geographical neighbours to remember why it's good to be friends with us. Halal meat, rice, mineral exports etc. We want to be the main supplier of these and other export goods, so that in the event of attack, the population of our attackers quickly becomes annoyed at the lack of goods they are accustomed to a ready supply of.

    Invest in uranium and nuclear power generation technologies. Specifically, fast breeder reactor tech. We want to become the world leaders in fast breeder reactor tech for two reasons. The first being it allows a way to use nuclear waste to generate more power and secondly because fast breeder reactors are a critical stage in the enrichment process for the development of nuclear weapons.

    Ideally we want anyone thinking of attacking us to know that we have close ties to the US, and that they will likely defend us. That we have a capable defence force ourselves. That the worlds powers will get very uneasy at the prospect of one of the world's greatest sources of uranium no longer being under our control. That any local neighbour attacking us will not have the support of their population for long and finally, that we have the capability to quickly develop and deploy nuclear weapons if we chose to.

    [–]originalGooberstein 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    One says it's a done deal the other says it's dumb deal. Maybe it was a bad line.

    [–]dbRaevn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Sounds suspiciously like "Main Fleet to Singapore"

    [–]Luckyluke23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I don't see why china is our enemy?

    [–]maccahac 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I agree with you 100%. A lot of people are sick of the major political parties. We live in uncertain times and I think the majority is beginning to regret some decisions the major parties have made in the last few decades. I don't think the world is ready for globalisation because some cultures don't work together. I think we're in the middle of a culture war where it's traditional values vs progressive values. I strongly agree that we need more isolation from the world so Australia can be more independent. I'm against letting people in from different cultural backs grounds. It's probably because I've had bad experiences with some refugees. I've made some good friends with some but I met one from Somalia who didn't really fit into our culture. I befriended him and gave him a lot of my time but he ended up going berserk and stabbing a random white student and was shit to death by the police. Anyways, the arguments between left and right is sometimes just pathetic. Most people are on the same page with immigration, I'm happy to see people integrate into society. Shame it doesn't always work. Peace out I think Pauline will really change Australian political discussions. Good luck champion

    [–]maccahac 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That's correct. China supports North Korea. What's the deal with every leftist supports brutal dictators but fights against fascism? You people kinda remind me of the anti fascists who raped, beat and murdered Mussolini.

    "Hey Trump is a fascist, look the other way, China is good"

    [–]worstdamnday 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Just do what's best for us. We aren't helping China be poor on human rights nearly as much as we help Americans kill people in the middle east so why do we suck up to them si much when they really aren't that beneficial to us?