Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations

Main Discussion Nominations Reassessment GA Cup Instructions Criteria Report Help Desk This is the discussion page of the good article nominations (GAN). To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the New section link above. Questions may also be asked at the GA Help desk. To check and see if your question may already be answered, click to show the frequently asked questions below or search the archives below. GAC discussion at FAC There is a discussion at FAC that involves GAC that some might wish to comment on. — Maile (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:58, 19 July 2016‎ (UTC) Request for comment on stand-alone lists being nominated as Good Articles Stand-alone lists are defined as "articles composed of one or more embedded lists, or series of items formatted into a list." The current good article criteria mentions that stand-alone lists should be nominated directly as featured lists rather than as good articles. Currently, there are a few lists that have good article status: for example, List of counties in Delaware, List of Ops (B) staff and more... As lists are technically defined as articles, and as there may be lists that may perhaps qualify to be good articles before being improved to featured list standards, editors may be motivated to develop good quality lists if lists (in other words, articles by definition) may be allowed to be nominated for GA status. In this context, I request for the comments of my fellow editors to the following queries: "Should stand-alone lists be allowed to be nominated as good articles?" "Should a new criteria of Good List status be introduced instead of qualifying lists as Good Articles?" "Should we continue status quo, that is, not change anything and let it continue as it is?" Thanks. Lourdes 17:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 1, 2 In other words, I'm okay with saying yes to the first and second queries, as I see making a jump directly to FL is through considerable quality improvements; and allowing editors to achieve a mid-level list status would be motivating. Lourdes 17:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo—the assessment scales are separate, Stub → Start → C → B → GA → A → FA or List → FL. (In some projects, there may be non-standard intermediate list assessment classes.) So while lists are technically indistinguishable from articles in the sense that they're both pages in the main space that aren't disambiguation pages or redirects, the different scales have enforced a separation.Imzadi 1979 → 19:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC) I am also in favor of keeping the status quo, though I also think it is important to examine GA eligibility on a case-by-case basis. Some articles have the word "list" in their title but are almost entirely comprised of narrative text, rather than an itemized list. If an article is almost entirely comprised of prose that otherwise meets the GA criteria, then we may want to allow that article to pass a GA review. On the other hand, I also think that an itemized list with no little or no prose will likely fail the breadth criterion because it does not say anything meaningful about the subject matter, its history, its significance, etc. I think good articles should generally contain substantial prose that gives the reader a thorough understanding of the subject matter. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 3 - status quo. 1 isn't workable since lists aren't articles; 2 was proposed last year (see Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 123#Good Lists), and there was much opposition resulting in no consensus. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC) Status Quo - there are articles called "list" but they are articles that happen to have a list in it, the "standalone list" criteria as defined by the FL standards should be used to judge any articles that may be questionable.  MPJ-DK  22:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC) Comment – Just a suggestion, but I think that somebody should post a notification at WT:FLC, where editors interested in list articles will be most likely to see the proposal. Right now, I'm not sure how many of the FLC regulars are even aware that an RFC is in progress, and their opinions may be helpful in determining consensus here. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Done. Lourdes 04:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC) @Giants2008: I informed several groups, including WT:FL and WT:FLCR. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:19, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1 and 2 I have a couple of FLs, and have always considered it strange that lists cannot be classed as GA (GL?). Not having a project-wide class for Good Lists means an enormous jump in quality from List to FL. I have been fortunate in being a member of Wikiproject Military history, where BL and AL exist, and even then I was in shock when I first tried to get through FLC. Also, I have had at least one AL rejected at FLC due to lack of sufficient reviewers, but I believe it would have sailed through if there was a GL-class which only required one reviewer. Also, I have a few Good Topics and one of the downsides of not having a GL-class is that any list you want to include in a GT needs to be FL, whereas articles can just be GA. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC) I can assure editors that have not taken a FL through FLC that the FL criteria are not a joke. It seems to me that we would decide whether we think there is a valid reason to have a GL-class then determine what the criteria would be, not do the whole lot in one go. If there was sufficient interest here, I would be happy to contribute to developing some GL criteria. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Not sure - I've thought about this several times before, and I keep coming back to what was repeated in the Village Pump discussion above: A good list (whether as a good article or a good list status) would be neigh distinguishable from a featured list. The only real difference would be in the number of reviewers required - a good list would need one, while a featured list needs several. Apart from that, they basically are the same thing. Featured list status is far easier to reach than featured article status.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1 and 2 per Peacemaker. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Support option 2 - We already have lists that others have reviewed at GA which will have to be delisted under the current GA rules. If we create a GL classification it would achieve two things. 1) it would allow for a gap between L and FL - some projects have this, but, others don't. 2) those lists that have already passed at GA will simply have a GL classification substituted instead - or an individual review of each and those that pass scrutiny will be adopted under GL classification. I quite like the idea of having this additional classification for lists. List currently equates to Start/Stub level, on top of this we have CL, BL, AL and FL. The only thing we don't have at all is GL. The other classifications are project specific, so are subject to varying degrees of enforcement and scrutiny. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:51, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2. There should be new milestones for list quality. They can be parallel to article ratings but should be separate. Deryck C. 11:34, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 3 featured lists are already a joke. There would not be much difference in work between a good list or a featured list, so just go for featured list. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC) What an offensive and uncharitable thing to claim. It only makes one thing look like a joke I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2016 (UTC) 3 Every so often someone proposes a GL level between List and FL, but other than only having a single reviewer, I've never seen anyone propose what would be the different criteria between them, which seems like an important point. Even in this thread there isn't any; we can't even seem to agree on whether the FL criteria are incredibly higher than MILHIST's AL criteria, or if they're "a joke" (though to be fair that user seems to have never written an FL, so I'm not sure why they think it's so easy). --PresN 18:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo - Lists have different criteria for assessments than articles, we should keep them separate. Kaldari (talk) 23:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo for now. Many of the Good Article criteria would not fit well with a list article, and a quality list article would require certain other elements that are not currently part of the GA criteria. Regarding a Good List process, I'd need to see proposed criteria and how they would be different from the Featured List criteria before I could potentially support. –Grondemar 01:24, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 3. Like PresN, I don't know what criteria a proposed GL process could have that would justify its existence. From what I understand, when authors of GAs don't seek FA status, the article often may be deemed too short for FA, or not comprehensive enough. FLC doesn't have a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature" criterion, as most of the lists being nominated don't have questions about whether they are comprehensive (a "complete set of items" is typically assumed to be comprehensive enough for us), and short lists sometimes raise questions about whether they should be stand-alone articles at all. If short lists are removed from the equation, what is left? Perhaps lists needing improved formatting, but should we consider questionably formatted pages worthy of a badge? As for option 1, I think there's a risk of confusing processes. What would be the difference between a GA and FL for a list article, or could they both be achieved at once? I don't have an easy answer for you. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:31, 3 December 2016 (UTC) Same process per Grondemar quality lists have similar requirements to quality articles. I think that FL review could be readily integrated here. This would be preferable to a GL venue, where participants would likely be much less. --Tom (LT) (talk) 21:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 1 and 2 First, thank you, Legobot, for letting me know about this even though I've never actually reviewed possible GA/FL/FA articles. Second, I've sometimes wondered why GL was never introduced. I just makes sense to me. Have GL and GA be on the same "level" and have FL and FA be on their own "level". — Gestrid (talk) 08:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo (i.e., 3). I do not think that FL and FA are as comparable as some in this discussion, so I am not convinced that there is any need for a good lists system. Even if I am wrong about this and there is need for a good list system, it should be kept separate from the good article system, just as FL is kept separate from FA. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - Lists aren;t articles, so they don't qualify as good articles; and having a recognized level below Featured List will probbly tend to cause users to be more likely to improve lists, making it easier for trhem to eventually be Featured Lists. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo. 1. Featured lists are not difficult to make, the GL and FL criteria would essentially be identical. 2. We don't have enough reviewers for GAN and FLC as it is, youreally want to make another process for the sake of bureaucracy? There's a reason this perennial proposal doesn't gain traction. Wizardman 15:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Most of the people picking 2 don't seem to be answering the couple major questions I have. What would differentiate GL and FL, and more importantly, who's going to handle the backlog? I don't see either being addressed, just a bunch of "i like it" people in support. Wizardman 01:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo, largely per Wizardman. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - Per Od Mishehu. I'll also note I've created a list that reached good article status, List of Oregon State University alumni, that was ultimately de-listed since lists don't qualify. We need to either remove all current lists or re-add this list, assuming it still meets the criteria. VegaDark (talk) 20:02, 4 December 2016 (UTC) To add to this, I've seen a few people saying that if we implement 2, we need to come up with some good list criteria that would differentiate it from featured list criteria. As someone who has been through the FL review process (albeit long ago, things may have changed significantly since I've last participated), I can suggest a few things that I think would be good: 1) List has an abundance of redlinks. I've had this used as an argument against approving a FL. Considering this requirement forces entirely new content to be created independent of the list page, I think this would be something that a good list could have. 2) List isn't comprehensive enough. Upon nomination of a list of famous alumni from a college, one of the FL objections was that the list likely was not particularly comprehensive when comparing the total number of alumni to the people on the list in particular fields. This objection requires a massive amount of additional research to go looking for people in particular fields in searching for content that doesn't exist yet anywhere on Wikipedia. While a good list should be pretty comprehensive, it being less comprehensive (for dynamic lists, at least) than FL status requires seems like a more forgiving requirement that would be appropriate for GL status. 3) List doesn't have a legend that is accessible for blind people. While this is certainly important, I feel like this burden (requiring you to assign symbols to anything differentiated by a color) is one step that a GL could probably overlook. 4) References listed in some way other than the most current, accepted version of citing sources. We've changed the ideal way references should be listed on pages on several occasions, and I feel like a GL, as long as it's citing sources reasonably well, does not need to have the most up to date accepted method of citing sources as a FL might require. These are just 4 ideas that could differentiate GL from FL requirements, obviously critique is welcome. VegaDark (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Comment if the community want to muddy the waters of an already overloaded and sadly low-quality review system such as GAN with mediocre lists, that's their call. I guess the over-arching factor is that a list passed as a "good article" will need to meet all the extant requirements of WP:WIAGA, or else make substantial proposals to caveat them where appropriate to accommodate the new style of article being promoted to that status. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC) I thought that was what the "GL" proposal (2.) was for, so that it doesn't impact on GA. Option 1 as a standalone is unworkable because the GA and List criteria clash significantly. Mr rnddude (talk) 20:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Nobody could possibly vote for 2 without a draft proposal on what constitutes a GL and why it would be different from an FL and what possible niche it would fill. That would be liking voting Leave in Brexit and claiming to know what the overall impact would be... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo, but in any event not 1: Lists do not belong at GAN; the criteria are/would be very different. If a "good" level is truly necessary—there's a set of criteria less stringent than FL but nevertheless a compelling set worth reviewing for—those interested can pursue a parallel process to GAN, but I've yet to see a convincing argument that includes what the GL criteria might be and why FLC needs supplementing. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo Definitely against lists at GAN. As others have said the criteria are not particularly applicable to lists. I'm not sure I'd support a whole new project, especially given there's no real criteria for something less than FL. I'd cross that bridge if we got to it, but I wouldn't support GL unless there were some criteria to judge. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 01:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - Yes, a new GL criteria is a great idea. Give it a separate project page all its own that does not merge with any other. Not all lists make it through FL. There should be an alternative for the editors/creators of stand-alone lists. GA is too backed up and slow to add yet more to it. — Maile (talk) 02:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Not all lists make it through FL. so what? Why should articles or lists (or DYK nominations for that matter) be guaranteed some kind of pass? That attitude I'm afraid is part of the problem here. We're not all here for special awards. Some articles will never make it to FA or FL or GA or whatever, we should accept that and move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC) 1 or 2 basically per Peacemaker. In addition, having written some lists that are currently GAs (here and here), there needs to be a place for those lists the sages at FLC determine aren't really lists. Parsecboy (talk) 19:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Parsecboy, that's an interesting comment. Do you mean there are articles that aren't accepted at FLC and which are also not eligible for GA because they're too listy? Can you give an example? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Looking at the talk page of the second link provided, this was given as an example of why it was put through the GA process as opposed to an FL process. VegaDark (talk) 20:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC) That was indeed the case. Parsecboy (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Indeed, the project has to draw a line somewhere were defining how many entries makes a "list". It's usually around 10. Four is too few. And besides, the Greek "list" is far more prose than list. So GA is perfect for it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC) Yes to 2 (create separate criteria) or 3 (status quo for now). I'm a little concerned about the desire to make "Good Lists" be a stepping stone to "Featured Lists". AFAICT, "Featured Lists" is actually "Featured Tables". I don't follow FL very closely but I've never seen an actual "stand-alone list" be accepted by FL. So if you start from the POV that a "Good List" is an actual WP:SAL (i.e., with true list formatting) that meets relevant sourcing criteria, etc., then you will be very disappointed when you take it to FL. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:24, 6 December 2016 (UTC) @WhatamIdoing: Necro-response: It's rare, but it happens (Anatomical terms of motion); there's also a bunch of "character" lists that are really a series of 1-paragraph sections. That said, I'd argue that a bare list of names/terms/whatever, even with sources, rarely meets what I would even consider "good", as in, gives you a solid overview of the topic at hand even if it's missing details. --PresN 17:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC) I think that reasonable people could easily disagree about whether that prose-heavy page is any type of list at all. At a glance, I'd estimate that the page is only about 20–30% lists. But I still think that if "GL" is created, we need to be explicit that editors should not expect it to be a useful path for reaching FL. The occasional exception doesn't justify disappointing 95% of editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:16, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Comment It's been a long time since I participated in the good articles process so my opinion might be a bit out of date. I was fairly active at one point and in fact delisted the Delaware article mentioned above three years ago. After some discussion there and at other points I came to the conclusion that there is a large grey area between what is a list and what is an article and no clear definition of what a list article is. For example simply changing the name of the Delaware article to Counties of Delaware would solve the list perception and in fact was the name of the article when it passed GA. There are also some types of articles that seem to fit in both processes, television series/seasons being one that springs to mind (compare featured lists The Simpsons (season 1) and 30 Rock (season 1) to good articles Parks and Recreation (season 2) and South Park (season 1)). I don't see a need to have a separate Good lists process. The principals requirements for featured lists and good articles are close enough and there is enough overlap that anyone getting an article reviewed should be able to find a process that will do so. So I guess this is a !vote for status quo although some clarification of the wording at WP:GA What cannot be a good article? -> Stand-alone lists, portals, sounds, and images: these items should be nominated for featured list, featured portal, featured sound, and featured picture status, respectively should be made to reflect the current practise. AIRcorn (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2016 (UTC) 2 I wanted this a long time ago, and I'm glad to see a formal discussion! White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC) 2, tentatively. Not 1. If there's consensus for 2, then obviously there would need to be a subsequent process through which criteria, etc. are developed. I went back and forth on this one. My inclination was 2, for reasons I'll get to, but seeing the FL coordinators argue against it seemed cause for concern. I think it could be pulled off and would be worth another conversation about what it would look like. I suppose 2 supports that conversation more than actually supporting any particulars. We have a lot of really awful lists that I think would benefit from some designation between just "list" and "featured list". A good starting point may be to just say that a good list is one which has a notable, clearly defined subject, has an unambiguous inclusion criteria met by all items in the list, includes sourcing for each item on the list, is more or less complete (relative to available articles), is effectively organized, and uses consistent formatting. The key differences between FL and GL would be prose (not a factor beyond the lead), the lead (similar to FA vs GA standards for the lead), media (not a factor), finer style details (TBD), and visual appeal (not a factor beyond thoughtful organization). My support of 2 isn't contingent on these actually being the criteria, of course... only breaking it down because others have asked how it would be different from FL. That I say all of this having no experience with FLs whatsoever is not insignificant, but I would reiterate that actually creating a good list (or whatever) system is a step or two away from this RfC. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Comment: I think lurking in the background here is a puzzle about what constitutes a list (I note comments about "drawing a line" between lists with x entries and lists with x+1 entries, and, in the above section, the bizarre claim that something is not a list "by definition" because it only has three entries). Maybe a more productive RfC would determine the precise line between a list and an article; that way, we would be more easily able to say whether something should be nominated at FLC or GAC. Given this existing ambiguity, there's no guarantee that a hypothetical GL process would provide what its proponents want; we might still see pages batted back and forth between the two processes, with neither particularly keen to "take it on". This doesn't help anybody. Josh Milburn (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC) If you are referring to my comment on the Delaware GA then your take on it is slightly off from what I was trying to say. For that article the "list" only has three entries, the bulk of the article is written prose more than anything else, which to me is an indicator that it's an "Article" more than a "list", the true test is that the list at the bottom could be removed and the article would not be significantly impacted by it. That to me is the deciding factor, not that it "only has three entries'.  MPJ-DK  03:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC Noted, but, in my defence, your exact words were "[t]he Delaware article is not a list by definition, only 3 entries, too short for FL and really could be renamed 'Counties of Delaware' without problems and clearly be a GA." I don't think my reading of what you said was unfair. This isn't really the point, though; my worry is not about entry-counting per se, but the fact that different users and processes seem to have differing views of what constitutes a "list". Josh Milburn (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC) On no need for a defense, I totally realize that what I said and what I wanted to say were two different things, glad I got the chance to actually clarify.  MPJ-DK  22:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC) 2 more or less per Od above. If I were to propose any GL criteria, I might say that they would include relatively stable lists with well-defined parameters for inclusion that don't get new additions on a daily or rapid basis. John Carter (talk) 00:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Not 1. I don't think the good article criteria make sense for lists, so we shouldn't start encouraging people to apply them. I don't have a strong preference between adding separate good list criteria or maintaining the current status quo. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo As the many times this has happened in the past, no one has articulated how GL criteria would be different from FL criteria except with less reviewers. By their nature, list articles are just simpler beasts than prose articles, and thus have less stops on the way from OK to Great. --Jayron32 02:19, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Status quo we should neither misapply a set of criteria designed for prose articles, nor create a new set where the FL criteria serve the purpose well. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - It's a very good idea. If establishing criteria is an issue, work on it, i.e. be bold by adding one criterion or two. George Ho (talk) 08:11, 10 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - Good idea; I was thinking of it too. J947 03:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2 - I think it is a good idea to have a Good List class for lists that are well-sourced and complete more so than a regular list but don't quite meet the FL criteria. We need to set a Good List Criteria similar to how we have Good Article Criteria and can then either nominate GL's here or create a separate Good List Candidate process. Dough4872 04:11, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2 I have never really understood why lists have to go straight to FA FL with no intermediate rating, but if we create good lists, then I don't see much reason to also allow those lists to also be GAs. Gluons12 ☢|☕ 20:17, 12 December 2016 (UTC). Lists don't go to FA, and never have, as is clearly stated above. Eric Corbett 20:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Fixed that, I meant FL. Gluons12 ☢|☕ 15:21, 13 December 2016 (UTC). Reports not being updated I believe the bot that updates Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Report has not been making updates for about a month??  MPJ-DK  23:09, 2 December 2016 (UTC) It's built by StatisticianBot (talk · contribs) which appears to be down. Have you informed the bot-op? --Redrose64 (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2016 (UTC) He appears not to have edited since mid-October unfortunately.  MPJ-DK  14:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC) I sent an e-mail a couple weeks back but didn't get a response. I could try sending a second one just to check, since when i do e-mail him he's generally good about responding. Wizardman 16:18, 3 December 2016 (UTC) Sent another e-mail. If there's still no response we may have to look at a plan B Wizardman 15:28, 4 December 2016 (UTC) I'll see if I can whip something up quickly (and hopefully get it through approval quickly). I'll focus on the exceptions list since that seems most useful for everyone, then the backlog report. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 01:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC) I filed a Bot Request For Approval. It only links to the page rather than the section, but that functionality will be built in soon, along with the other aspects of the report. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 05:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Wugapodes, thanks for taking this on. The Oldest nominations section is quite useful for the GA Cup, which is currently ongoing, since the ten articles listed there are automatically eligible for the maximum points if reviewed. Since you should already have the data for it—it's the oldest 10 unreviewed articles from the Old nominations section of the Exceptions report—I'm hoping it won't take much to include it in what your bot produces. Getting a new entry for the Backlog report would be great; another useful report is the Malformed nominations section, which while it doesn't happen often, helps us know what may need cleaning up on the various article talk pages. I would put the lowest priority on the remaining sections of the Report page. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC) Bot was approved for trial and has made its first edit so the exceptions are largely reliable now. It should run once daily at midnight. Keep an eye out for anything strange and report it on my talk page or the BRFA. I'll keep working on things in the order BlueMoonset has recommended. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 04:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Wugapodes, I've posted to the bot request page: the links have changed, and they're less helpful going to the article page than to the GAN page as they had before. I'll only comment on official runs there; would it help if I mentioned things I noticed in your recent test runs (the ones that go to your test page rather than the actual Report page) on your talk page? BlueMoonset (talk) 15:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC) PSLV-C2 This article is right on the border of article and list; what do people think? Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC) Seems like a list to me, with a significant portion of the article dedicated to tables. Plus, I would like to believe that this is a typical case of a list that may qualify as a Good List rather than as a Featured List (not a substantive lead, but providing significant details through tables). Lourdes 02:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC) To me one of the criteria should also be amount of readable prose, this barely qualifies for a new article DYK, much less being "an article", just not enough prose.  MPJ-DK  03:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Agree with both - list. Johnbod (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC) 1657 B (259 words) "readable prose size" means that, if viewed as an article, I would put it as start class. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Proposal for election of coordinators for the project The proposal is simple, this is one of vital projects on Wiki that holds the responsibility of handling the good content. Since its inception it went on without any leadership, I feel electing coordinators will help better functioning of the project. My proposal is to elect one main coordinator, another 2–4 assisting coords, and 1-2 coords for each topic area. This will help in effectively handling the nominations, look over the reviews, address the second opinions etc. Please share you views. There is no requirement that the users with highest number of edits will have to be coords. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 04:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Support Coordinators work well at MILHIST. They, however, get by with one main coordinator and a few assistants elected annually. What this proposes is more complicated and may be either impractical or unnecessary. Still, this is a step in the right direction. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Support Seems a practical suggestion to get some of the issues of GA on the resolution track. I couldn't find any past discussions of this or similar proposals. Can someone assist in the diff, if such past discussions may exist? Thanks. Lourdes 05:00, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Support - I quite like this idea. GA is severely hampered free for all system in some sense. Some co-ordination of maintenance tasks and possibly overseeing of GA noms and reviews may have beneficial effects on the system. I too am curious if this has ever been discussed previously. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Request for clarification. How exactly will the proposed coordinators help better functioning of the project? How will the proposed arrangement differ from what currently exists? Would the proposed coordinators be expected/required to enforce accurate and appropriate application of the GA criteria? (ie. no more, no less) • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose without an additional (and more convincing) rationale. What actual problem is this increased bureaucracy intended to solve? —David Eppstein (talk) 05:25, 11 December 2016 (UTC) I think the proposal needs a bit more clarification. I could see coordinators handling noms where the nominator or reviewer went stale, or resolving disputes, taking care of poor reviews, or spearheading reviewing drives. In the past this has been handled by experienced editors (including myself and Wizardman, a few years ago), but since they lacked the de jure authority to do it, it sometimes caused problems. I don't see them making the pass/fail judgments on an article, unlike FAC, due to the workload and because this would be micromanaging - reviewers can handle this themselves. --Rschen7754 07:29, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Comment - Coordination will definitely. Something is always better than nothing. The GA criteria is one of the most confusing ones, it constantly gives rise to differences between the reviewer and nominator. Such disputes can be resolved. Reviews requiring 2nd opinion will also be favored. Apart from these, poor reviews and random nomination of articles can be put to check. Having such will also help in conducting drives and cups to encourage editors to maintain the good article status. As Rschen said, some authority may given to the coords after consulting the arbitration committee, if required. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 08:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC) I definitely did not say that. ArbCom has no power over the GA process. --Rschen7754 17:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Like some others who have commented, I would like to see more about what the expected responsibilities of these coordinators would be. Also, there are 16 topic areas for GA, so with a lead coordinator, assistants, and 1-2 per topic, this proposal is calling for dozens of coordinators. That would be more than we have for all the FA-related processes combined. --RL0919 (talk) 16:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Like RS said above, I'm not entirely sure what the coordinators would exactly do. If you mean a person who can take over inactive nominations or handle things on that front, there's already people that do that, myself included. If you mean resolving disputes between reviewer and reviewee, same scenario. I would say that the coordinators per topic area would be a non-starter, we don't have that kind of manpower. 2-4 coordinators in all, though, would not be a bad idea so long as it was clear what their purpose is. To give an analogy, I took over as WP:FT coordinator years back at a time where there were none and the process was at a standstill (which has thankfully been resolved with others taking over for me). In an area like that, you absolutely need a decider and someone to take charge. I don't see that same situation here. Consider this a neutral pending more info. Wizardman 18:28, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose absent explanation of what coordinator duties will be, and why things would improve if we created such positions. Having coordinators for the sake of having them strikes me as additional bureaucracy; I'm not at all convinced by the assertion that "something is always better than nothing". BlueMoonset (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose per Wizardman and BlueMoonset above. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of coordinators, but the current proposal calls for way too many coordinators and doesn't provide any clarity as to the role and duties of said coordinators. I'd recommend having the discussion about what a coordinator would do first. In the various Featured processes with coordinators, their function is in part to help judge consensus for promotion. Since GA requires only one reviewer to list an article, this function doesn't seem relevant. –Grondemar 19:28, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose per BlueMoonset. I am not convinced that we need project coordinators, though I do think it might be useful to appoint "subject supervisors" to double-check editorial suggestions by reviewers who are not familiar with the subject matter. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose as above. I am not necessarily opposed to the GA project having some centralised coordination, and I think I supported something similar in the past. Right now, however, this seems to be a solution in search of a problem. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:35, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Request for clarification - as above, I see no explanation for what this will improve. The reviewers are pretty much the "coordinators" here. FunkMonk (talk) 21:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose in the absence of clarification -- Josh and FunkMonk have said much of what I was planning to say. As a MilHist coord and a FAC coord, both of which have responsibilities for judging consensus on, and then closing, multi-reviewer assessments, I'm yet to understand the real necessity of this well-intentioned proposal when GAN is supposed to be a one-nomination/one-reviewer process. As to other possible duties, in almost a decade of nominating and reviewing at GAN I'm yet to be involved in an issue that required input by a central authority. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose as this RfC needs more clarification. If this passes in its current form, it will lead to some sort of dispute soon after that which will likely lead somewhere none of us want it to go. — Gestrid (talk) 05:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose; we already have problems with OWNership in this area, and the proposal will institutionalize it. DGG ( talk ) 23:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Oppose. No plan is being presented on how this coordination will work. Without a detailed plan to show how this coordination system would be implemented, there is nothing to support. There may be value in having more structure to the GA process, but that structure should be presented beyond a vague "let's have a structure" RfC. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 01:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC) Probably a good idea, but clearly a better proposal is needed. Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC) Not yet. A good idea, but details are needed. SSTflyer 10:06, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Feedback requested: Backlog Report link preferences For those who don't know, the bot that previously updated Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Report has been down for some time. I'm currently working on a replacement, WugBot (see BRFA). BlueMoonset and I have been discussing where the links on that page should point to. Currently I have it set up so that the links go directly to the review page of the article (if it exists, to the talk page otherwise) which is different from how the predecesor, StatisticianBot, formatted the links. Previously, the links would go to the GAN page and jump to the section where the nomination is. BlueMoonset makes a good case for the previous format, but I think we'd both like to hear wider input on what others would prefer. TL;DR: Where should the links on Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Report point, the GAN page as previously, the article's review page as currently, or some other option? Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 01:29, 13 December 2016 (UTC) GAN page link. I wrote the original spec for StatisticianBot, many years ago; to be honest I didn't realize then how useful the link into GAN was going to be, but I've used it many times since then. I haven't been an active GA reviewer recently, but when I was reviewing I would go to the report first, find something old that looked interesting, then use the link to see where it was in the GAN section -- top of list or lower down. That gave me a jumping off point to decide to review it or something older. Going straight to the article page provides less context. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)