I thought I would give a slightly wider circulation to my exchanges with ‘Horace’ in the below-the-line comments on Sunday's column. I’ve edited them slightly to make the back-and-forth more understandable. ‘Horace’ has a habit of quoting me at length, and I have tried to ensure this is clear by putting my words, even when quoted by ‘Horace’, in bold type, and his words in normal type.
First, my original column item:
As I strolled through the frozen winter streets of Moscow a few years ago, a worrying idea came to me. Were speech and thought now more free in Russia than in what we used to call the West? I rather think that they are.
Last week, Kevin Roberts resigned as executive chairman of Saatchi & Saatchi for publicly questioning ultra-feminist beliefs. He is not the first. A similar wild frenzy of persecution burst around the head of the Nobel prize-winning scientist Sir Tim Hunt, shamefully driven from his position as an honorary professor at University College London.
It doesn’t matter whether you agree with these men’s opinions or not. Can it be right that they have been treated in this way for expressing them? Of course, neither of them has been marched off to a gulag for his thought-crime. But so what? Isn’t loss of employment and position a very serious punishment?
Despite the smears of many, I have no illusions about Mr Putin’s Russia. It is a sinister tyranny where those who challenge the president’s power or expose his wrongdoing suffer very nasty fates.
But in public, in private, in offices, on public transport, you have no need to guard your tongue as you did in the communist days, when a poem could get you executed and a joke could send you to an Arctic labour camp for 20 years.
I saw all that filth end, in person, and rejoiced to see it go. And I recall the brief few years when I thought foolishly that the world had been cleansed of a great evil for ever.
And then I began to notice that the nasty totalitarian ideas that had once been trapped behind the Iron Curtain had now escaped into the once-free West. You couldn’t say this and you couldn’t say that. You had to be careful about writing certain things, especially if you worked in the public sector.
There was a genuine fear behind all this. It was worst of all at universities, where boot-faced commissars patrol the minds of the young, enforcing speech codes – and the wrong ideas can get you marked down in more ways than one.
This simply isn’t so in Mr Putin’s Russia, now astonishingly the most conservative, patriotic and Christian country left in Europe. Orthodox religious icons were found among the debris after the shooting down of a Russian helicopter in Syria, and Russian airborne forces last Tuesday celebrated the feast day of their patron, the Prophet Elijah. People who think that Russia is still the Soviet Union, or that intolerant, militant Marxism died when the USSR fell, don’t understand Russia or Marxism. And they’re not paying much attention to what’s going on here, either.
‘Horace’; commented :
Peter, you make two rather staggering statements here: 'Were speech and thought now more free in Russia than in what we used to call the West? I rather think that they are.' And: 'Mr Putin’s Russia, now astonishingly the most conservative, patriotic and Christian country left in Europe.' As always, to avoid accusations of propagandizing for its murderous government, you insert a caveat: 'Despite the smears of many, I have no illusions about Mr Putin’s Russia. It is a sinister tyranny where those who challenge the president’s power or expose his wrongdoing suffer very nasty fates.' Exactly right, so why do you keep praising this 'sinister tyranny?'
To which I replied: I do not 'praise' it. I try to provide reasoned explanations for its actions, which are in general rational and broadly predictable, so as to counter the absurd and uninformative propaganda attacks common in both politics and the media. These attacks and attitudes form a very poor basis for a wise and self-interested policy towards Russia and eastern Europe. In fact, if we follow them we will find ourselves in serious trouble and greatly out of our depth. My main concern, as always in foreign policy, is for British interests. They are not well-served by ignorant hysteria. We have perfectly good (and in some cases much too close) relations with other countries just as tyrannical if not more so, so this is not a point of any importance. I undoubtedly feel a strong sympathy for the Russian *people* and I also have a strong dislike of war. The hysterical Western attitude towards modern Russia prevents an intelligent assessment of that country's actions or its people's concerns. In my view it makes war more likely.***
‘Horace’ commented:
Rightly you don't say anything nice about its equally sinister client states; Iran, Syria, Zimbabwe, North Korea etc.
I responded : They are not under discussion, any more than our unlovely 'client states' such as Turkey and Bahrain or the countries of which we are the client such as China and Saudi Arabia. I have written at length about several of the countries he mentions, in my book 'Short Breaks in Mordor' and in articles accessible here.He can see what I think about them by reading this material
‘Horace’ continued :
‘Nor do you say anything nice about the 'stans', those former S.U. 'members', that are now run on the Putin business model and have become little more than de facto Russian oblasts. Oddly you did refer recently to a possible 'reunification' (a Kremlin term if ever I heard one) of Russia and Belarus. Such a 'reunification' could only take place by brute force, albeit disguised by the usual 'hybrid' methodology used against Georgia and Ukraine; the last two former Russian occupied nations to try to struggle free from the Kremlin. Belarusians are no more Russian than Ukrainians or Georgians. Or for that matter Polish. How are speech and thought free in Russia? Citizens are told what to think by state controlled media, which is even less restrained than its external broadcaster, RT. Have you watched this troll tv channel Peter? You will need a bath afterwards; the outpourings of hate, lies and conspiracy theories directed against the usual enemies (US/EU/UK/Ukraine etc) are almost incredible.
I replied: This pseudonymous poster (what does he fear? The defunct KGB?) uses the expression 'told what to think' so as to give the impression that the Russians are obliged to hold certain opinions in public. But they are not. I think the West has certain TV channels which , in their own more subtle ways, likewise seek to influence the public mind in ways which are not wholly truthful. I have yet to see any of the major western news channels give fair airtime to significant voices critical of the interventionist policies of the West, for instance. The other side, however, get unfettered airtime. And coverage of these adventures is invariably approving and uncritical. Anyone seeking an intelligent and informed view of the Libya or Syria crises would search Western broadcasters in vain. This does not excuse RT, whose approach I do not approve of. But anyone who disapproves of it should likewise be critical of its western rivals, whose methods RT copies and intensifies.. He should read what I say. Of course it is shocking, because it is not the way we like to think of ourselves.In Russia, actual speech or thought are free. The kind of thought police patrolling which deadens our Universities and gets senior figures driven from their jobs for thinking aloud about major social issues and expressing 'wrong' opinions simply does not exist. To revive a distinction often used by American conservatives in the Cold War era, Russia is an *authoritarian* society, but not a *totalitarian* society. That is, it does not require its people to subscribe to (or pretend to subscribe to) an official ideology. But it does meet challenges to its actual power with violence and lawless brutality. This is an important distinction, and I raise it because it is a profound criticism of or own society, not because it is especially creditable that Russia is as it is. My aim was to make readers think. Of course some prefer not to do so, and so will crossly resort to distortions or deliberate misunderstandings of what I say, generally under impenetrable pseudonyms. I will just have to hope that others are more intelligent and open-minded.
Horace continued : ‘ Nigel Farage appears regularly, as he has the same list of enemies. He is a good fit and guaranteed not to criticise his no doubt generous hosts. You can add to the list of RT employees the names of Galloway, Corbyn, Assange and his fellow Russian agent Snowden. There is also a less well known, but really ghastly shill 'journalist' named Graham Phillips (sad to relate, this person is English) who specialises in hate and lies against the victim of the most shattering aggression from Russia; Ukraine, which as a result of the savagery inflicted upon it by its malevolent neighbour, is the genuine 'most conservative, patriotic and Christian country left in Europe.' How can that title be bestowed upon Putin's Russia, which weaponises its church to spread a race supremacist 'we are the true chosen people' message and undermines the Kyiv Patriarchate? So no, I don't think the matter of the Chairman of Saatchi and Saatchi is in any way comparable. Incidentally, the brothers were pressured out long ago by the foreign owners and have their own outfit, M&C Saatchi, which is very unlikely to be following the pc orthodoxy.’
I don’t think this segment added anything to the above, and didn’t bother to respond to it.
Then ‘Horace’ returned to post
‘Peter [Mr Hitchens to you, please. I don’t believe we’ve been formally introduced and I object to unjustified matiness, especially from people whose names I don’t even know] writes : **** 'I undoubtedly feel a strong sympathy for the Russian *people* and I also have a strong dislike of war.'****
How sad that you do not seem to show the same sympathy for the Georgian people, who lost 20% of their land, thousands of their people and still have 120,000 internal refugees from the 2008 Russian invasion
**** PH chides: Mr Pseudonymous really shouldn't try it on in this way. What invasion? An impartial UN report….
(see here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8281990.stm
for one of the very rare media accounts of this thoroughly inconvenient outcome still largely unknown to most journalists and, as a result, to most people)
….concluded that the conflict was started by Georgia's then leader Saakashvili. I am indeed sorry for the Georgian people, having several times visited that lovely and hospitable country, but their problems are not solely attributable to Russia.***
How sad that you are unable to show sympathy for the Ukrainian people who in their terrible past suffered systematic mass starvation from their imperial rulers and are again losing staggering numbers of their own, on their own land and have to look after 1.6m internal refugees, with almost zero external help, since 2014. When are you going to go in and bat for them, instead of Trumpishly undermining them? You have even denied persecution of the Tatars, despite overwhelming evidence.
****I have every sympathy with them and with all the victims of Stalin, a Communist despot. I do not know when or how I have ever 'denied' the undoubted persecution of the Krim Tatars by Stalin. Perhaps he would care to substantiate this charge? ****
‘Peter writes : '****This pseudonymous poster (what does he fear? The defunct KGB?) .......' The KGB is not defunct; the name itself was just an update from the Cheka. It is now the FSB, which has a very sinister and active external service, the SVR. Czarism, Bolshevism and now fascism, a nation does not change when it changes its system of government, as the family of the late great Boris Nemtsov know only too well. One of the last hopes Russia had for a peaceful and democratic future was his friend Gary Kasparov, who cannot even live there any more for mortal fear. ***
PH: On the contrary, these organisations are wholly distinct, having completely different purposes. Communism is a distinct system. Supporters of Ukrainian nationalism, as this contributor appears to be, should be careful about bandying the word 'fascism'. It has little direct application in the modern world, but those who wear the Wolfsangel badge and admire Stepan Bandera know more of fascism as a real manifestation than most of us..****
Horace: ‘Thank you for your replies Peter. ****PH chides: Mr Pseudonymous really shouldn't try it on in this way. What invasion?An impartial UN report concluded that the conflict was started by Georgia's then leader Saakashvili. I am indeed sorry for the Georgian people, having several times visited that lovely and hospitable country, but their problems are not solely attributable to Russia.*** I think quite a few people would disagree with this; the entire population of Georgia for example.’
PH: Whether they disagree with it or not, it was the impartial conclusion of Heidi Tagliavini, a Swiss diplomat without any partiality, assisted by 30 European military, legal and history experts, and commissioned by the EU, which is in many ways hostile to modern Russia which cannot have especially welcomed its conclusions. Even if everyone in Georgia *does* disagree with it, it doesn’t make it any less valid. If impartial UN reports can be causally dismissed in this manner, then there really isn’t any point in arguing. If he has any quarrel with its factual material or its logic, then that, by contrast, would be of some interest. The full text is here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_report.pdf
Horace: What Georgia does or does not do on its own land is not the business of Russia.
PH: How sweetly naïve. In the same way what Cuba, or Haiti or Guatemala, or Iran, does on its own land is not the business of the USA (he will I hope know the reason why I have listed these particular states) , what Poland does on its own land is not the business of the EU Commission, what the Philippines or Vietnam do on their own land is not the business of China, what Cyprus does on its own land is not the business of Turkey, what Bhutan does on its own land is not the business of India, what Yugoslavia did on its own land was not the business of the EU, what Syria or Libya do on their own land is not the business of Saudi Arabia, France, Turkey, Britain or the USA. It’s a fine principle. But not much observed. Besides which under Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia very actively wooed both the EU and NATO, seeking membership in these organisation – a policy more or less designed to provoke a reaction from Moscow (this may interest some http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2012/10/pussy-riot-versus-georgia-prison-rapes-why-some-things-get-reported-a-lot-and-others-dont.html ). Some may wonder if Mr Saakashvili, having found the West reluctant to get entangled in the Caucasus, hoped to jolly things along a bit.
Horace: There is a very professional video on YouTube, Lobotomy. The secrets of Russia's propaganda machine, which will very thoroughly put your misconception about Georgia right. It is harrowing to watch. I challenge you to still hold your terribly mistaken view after watching this video. Key contributors include genuine Russian patriots Boris Nemtsov and Olga Politkovskaya. It was made in 2010 and probably contributed towards the state assassination of Boris. Olga of course was already dead.
PH: I was not aware that the killers of Mr Nemtsov had been definitely identified. I have never been able to see how the murder of this has-been could have bene welcome news to Mr Putin, a practical man if he is anything, but who knows? But I am still not sure what this has to do with my point about speech and thought being freer in Moscow tan they are in London. It is part f the whole point of my paradox. Russia is a sinister tyranny, We are a law-governed democracy. Yet speech and thought are more free in the tyranny. I say this to provoke thought, not to parse Mr Putin. In this case I seem to have provoked only a self-righteous reflex.
Horace(here he oddly omits the charge to which he then provides the response. The charge(see above) was : ‘You (that is, me) have even denied persecution of the Tatars, despite overwhelming evidence.’
: PH****I have every sympathy with them and with all the victims of Stalin, a Communist despot. I do not know when or how I have ever 'denied' the undoubted persecution of the Krim Tatars by Stalin. Perhaps he would care to substantiate this charge? ****
I was referring to the persecution of the Tatars that is taking place right now, of which there is overwhelming evidence. Some of which I provided for you last time we debated this.’
PH asks: Did he? I am aware that some leaders of the Krim Tatars have opposed the Russian takeover of the Crimea, which has certainly led to some indefensible political repression by the Russian occupation authorities. But I would regard this as a political response to a direct political challenge to Russian power, not ethnic persecution. The Soviet Union reversed and regretted Stalin’s actions long before the collapse of Communism, and I know of no substantial difference between the treatment of the Tatars (as an ethnic group) under Gorbachev, who ended the persecution, under Ukrainian rule 1991-2014, or under Russian rule since 2014.
Horace: ***PH: On the contrary, these organisations are wholly distinct, having completely different purposes. Communism is a distinct system. Supporters of Ukrainian nationalism, as this contributor appears to be, should be careful about bandying the word 'fascism'. It has little direct application in the modern world, but those who wear the Wolfsangel badge and admire Stepan Bandera know more of fascism as a real manifestation than most of us..**** I am not a supporter of Ukrainian nationalism, I am supporter of the notion that Russia should stop murdering its neighbours, stealing their land and spreading poisonous lies about the victims of its fascist aggression. I do not refer to any classical definition of fascism; the word is applicable to describe certain types of behaviour, all of which Putin's Russia is guilty of: extreme nationalism, race supremacism, anti-Semitism, extreme militarism, persecution of minorities, scapegoating of foreigners for own failings, creation of bizarre personality cult around the leader, emasculation of parliament, persecution (and worse) of opponents, emasculation of judiciary, state control of media, spending $1bn/year on external propaganda and a troll TV network, telling lies, thieving from state resources, leaders living like czars, imperialism, absurd sense of entitlement, constant airing of fake grievances, rigged elections, crushing genuine independence struggles within its own land whist creating fake ones on other people's land, menacing all of its neighbours making them live in fear, threatening to use nukes etc etc.
PH: There is no classical definition of fascism apart from ‘view held by supporter of Benito Mussolini or Oswald Mosley’, the only two figures(both of them former socialists and prize opportunists) actually to call themselves ‘Fascists’. But in the part of the world whereof we speak, the word tended to be used to describe Hitler and his armies, who passed that way more than once and left an indelible impression on all whom they met. And it is a regrettable fact that those armies received some assistance in what is now Ukraine, and that this (rather shockingly) is not regarded as wholly shameful by some Ukrainian nationalists. Thus the use of the word to attack Russia in this context is a bit odd. I note he doesn’t really answer this.
The above rather selective outrage, where it refers to internal matters, could mostly (extreme nationalism, race supremacism, anti-Semitism, persecution of minorities, scapegoating of foreigners for own failings, emasculation of parliament, persecution (and worse) of opponents, emasculation of judiciary, state control of media, to which one could add violent overthrow of legitimate authority and of course extreme corruption, telling lies, thieving from state resources, leaders living like czars, imperialism, absurd sense of entitlement, constant airing of fake grievances, rigged elections, crushing genuine independence struggles within its own land. What does he mean by ‘extreme militarism’, by the way?), be directed at Ukraine with as much justice if not more. If ‘Horace’ thinks that western media are wholly truthful and never propagandist, or that western powers never manipulate ethnic tensions in countries for selfish ends (Yugoslavia, anyone? The Kurds, at all?) , I can only chuckle. Self-righteousness is a pretty useless basis for foreign policy. Why, he could equally accuse Mrs Theresa May of ‘threatening to use nukes’.
I did not intend to restart the argument about Russia. I long ago answered all this stuff. I sought to state a paradox which might make people intelligently critical of our own country, the only one we have any business criticising, and the only one whose fate we have the power or right to alter.
But if people will insist on getting righteous about Russia I will ask once again what sort of country we would be (if we existed at all) without the heroic English Channel (the real reason for our survival in 1588, 1805 and 1940) to protect us from our neighbours. Russia has never had such a moat, and that is why it is different. Only a jingo and a fool would forget this.