A discussion of mass immigration

A few years ago, I took part in a discussion (organised, I think, by the Spectator magazine) about mass immigration, sparked off by David Goodhart's book on the subject, 'The British Dream' Some kind person has assembled my contributions ( and the interruptions from the chairman, Andrew Neil):

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgn0c3Ito1k&feature=youtu.be&a

 

Comments

[Michael Wood]

My thanks too, Mr Bunker ( including to our host and his minders who let us waffle on and on......)
It's always a pleasure talking to you.

[Mr Bunker]

If others agree, I think it's about time we closed this thread and moved on.It's long since dropped off the end of the list of "Recent Posts", so I don't suppose many people are still looking at it anyway. But before I leave, my thanks to Kevin 1, Peter Charnley, adeledicnander, Michael Wood, louiseyvette and C Morrison - it's been an interesting discussion!

[Mr Bunker]

adeledicnander - from the context it appeared you were alleging the minimal or non-coverage of terrrorist attacks in the German media, but if you were referring to British media only, that's bad enough, Here in Germany we have full coverage, sometimes a little belated until the facts are known, no longer with any hesitation in revealing the identity or nationality of the perpetrators.

I must however admdit that I'm rather annoyed at the way German media are referring to the despicable axe- attack in Bavaria as a "politically motivated" crime, because it was obviously "religiously motivated". The young man shouted "Allah is Great" (I presume: in Arabic) as he attacked his victims whom he referred to as "Ungläubige" (infidels).

[C. Morrison]

Mr Bunker | 20 July 2016 at 10:10 PM :
*** But whilst lies or the witholding of information may be "conspiracies", they are not conspiracy "theories". There is a big difference. ***

Point is, those who question, offer facts contradictory to, or refuse to accept the "official" line (lies, denial and disinformation) about such events tend to get smeared as purveyors of "conspiracy theory" anyway ... for decades, it's been a buzz-word label useful to the corrupt political establishment in avoiding accountability.

[adeledicnander]

- "Is that the 'non-reported crime' you were referring to?" -
Posted by: Mr Bunker | 19 July 2016 at 09:26 PM

"Mainstream minimal or nil coverage of an 'asylum seeker' hacking to death a mother and son shopping in IKEA" (as quoted above the above comment) can not be fairly characterised as 'non-reported crime'.

Anyone who regularly but not invariably hears early morning, midday, teatime, evening and night-time news programmes might be forgiven for some surprise at never having heard any report of the above in mainstream broadcasts and only knowing that this dreadful event had occurred from the internet.

The tenor of BBC internet reporting at the time is still there on the web.

The BBC unremitting coverage of that spurious headline in The Times misquoting Andrea Leadsom provides the interesting contrast of a manufactured non-issue which the remainstream media chose to make an issue of for their own reasons.

Mention of the most recent knife and axe attack on passengers on a train in Germany was incuded in early morning news bulletins on Radio 4 and on The Daily Politics but somehow missed on BBC1's 6pm litany of trivia; although then covered over on ITV at 6.30pm.

The points put in the previous post on evasion of responsibility were exemplified and unchallenged in The Daily Politics (19 July, 26 mins in) by Ken Clarke, again played out like fifty years of the same stuck record.

Moving the goal-posts and playing the man not the ball.

As with the same unredeemable guarantees of the previous referendum forty years ago which did not have the same plausibility for anyone who had noticed that those forty years had passed.

So rather than address the actual brutal reality which they have brought about, Ken Clarke and those like him still prefer to talk about "hardline eurosceptics here like to pray on these fears" as though votes were the real concern and that the "fears" which were once only fears expressed in words more than forty years ago have not been fully and disasterously made all too real over and over again since, entirely as predicted.

[Mr Bunker]

C Morrison - a "conspiracy theory" is a theory put forward by people claiming to have conclusive evidence for a different explanation from the generally accepted explanation. For example, they may claim that the CIA murdered Kennedy, that the Jews were responsible for 9/11, and so on.

But whilst lies or the witholding of information may be "conspiracies", they are not conspiracy "theories". There is a big difference.

Also, you may perhaps have a personal "theory" that people were lied to, that the truth was not told. But that too is not a "conspiracy theory".

[Mr Bunker]

adeledicnander - you should get your information from reputable sources and not just from "breitbart".You write:

"Mainstream minimal or nil coverage of an 'asylum seeker' hacking to death a mother and son shopping in IKEA ..."

Well, there was a full report in the FAZ on 30.10.2015 headlined (my translation) LIFELONG FOR ASYLUM-SEEKER FOR DOUBLE-MURDER AT IKEA, giving details of the crime (murder of mother and son) in SWEDEN in August 2015. There was a similar report in DIE WELT and, I presume, in other German media too.

Is that the 'non-reported crime' you were referring to?

[C. Morrison]

Mr Bunker | 19 July 2016 at 11:03 AM :
*** Which conspiracy theories have "eventually turned out to be true"? ***

Examine the starting of various wars since the end of WW2. Featuring false official > excuses < which subsequently turn out to be exactly that -- to varying extent, "conspiracies" -- despite denials at the time.
Iraq/Kuwait and Wall Street babies in incubators ... the Iraqi WMD lie, complete with faked 'evidence' ... the 'Gulf of Tonkin Incident' re Vietnam war.....
Or how about the decades of denial that the Bilderberg Group even existed ... likewise that Western multinational corporations were participating in joint-ventures behind the Iron Curtain .... Gladio, purveyors of false-flag terrorism, finally exposed in Italian law courts but almost certainly still operational .... or it being admitted long afterwards that the British public were conned about the Common Market ... and the populations of continental EU countries deliberately misled about monetary union and the true purpose and agenda of the ECB ... or the Blairites' deliberate infliction of mass-immigration with a range of rather absurd excuses for doing so constantly being recited -- but an ulterior motive (at the time undeclared or denied) of terminally eroding British or English national identity.
That's just a very small sample, which doesn't even mention Ukraine and Syria.
Perhaps in Bunkerland political/corporate establishment leaders always tell the truth, even if it contradicts their truth about the same things previously, and the next time too? Wasn't it Orwell who described such a situation?

[Michael Wood]

Mr. Bunker,
How many times does it need to be said!!
Faithful Christians are those who follow Christ - in thought, word and deed.
Those who call themselves Christians - yet give the impression of being opportunists, despots and warmongering murderers are liars!

Yes, there are humans without any faith that are similar, but that doesn't mean that being human is the cause. Wickedness is the cause and anyone tolerating wickedness is complicit.

I agree that the leaders of the USA, Great Britain, France and others are responsible for the chaos and hatred that we are experiencing today, but that chaos was and is an integral part of Islam too. I learned that when I worked and travelled to different Islamic countries of different ethnic origins - the common factor amongst them was a hatred for the Christian West - (no doubt a long suffering hangover from the crusades compounded by more recent colonial interference by leaders just as vain and ambitious as Blair and Bush).
There is also a level of judicial barbarity that existed at it's (Islam's) origin which has not improved one iota.
The west certainly didn't encourage or teach the stoning to death of offenders, nor the cutting off of limbs and heads. The faithful Muslim seems to accept it as a required norm or, at its most barbarous as in ISIS, run away from it rather than stand and resist it.

The world's problems begin with its leaders, religion's problems begin with its leaders.
Here in the west it is subsequently our problem and our responsibility by virtue of our promoting such leaders to power.
We regularly have the opportunity to democratically remove bad leadership from power but we don't - in fact, over the last 60 or so years, we re-elect and reinstate them!

So, Mr Bunker, if you want to blame anyone for the trouble and strife that is killing, maiming and displacing hundreds of millions, then blame everyone - yourself included.

[adeledicnander]

@Mr Bunker | 17 July 2016 at 01:07 PM, 08:39 PM, 12:33 PM

- "Surely you're not implying that we are not talking about the problem of immigration. My goodness, there's very little else at the moment in the media and in private conversation."

With criminal prosecutions by German authorities as a result.

"And we're not merely talking, we seeking solutions and doing something about it."

Too little too late.

Talk about terrorism is like talk about mass immigration is like talk about multiculturalism: displacement activity.

- "Even quoting Enoch Powell won't alter that."

Enoch Powell attempted to prevent these massacres.

- "Cologne Lights takes place mainly darkness. And yesterday the banks of the Rhine and the bridges were lined with crowds of several hundred thousand men, women and children watching the brightly lit ships pass by and the fantastic firework display."

This Job's comforter reassurance, after Nice, is ill-considered.

- "And as I'm sure you all (including Mr Watson and Mr Molyneux) expected, defenceless German women were being sexually molested and raped left, right and centre under cover of the night by Arabs and North African asylum seekers ... er, well, no, actually they were not. On the contrary, in fact."

Alternatively, websearch Sweden May 2016.

- "Everything appears to have gone off peacefully. But has that got a mention in the British media? I had thought they would be full of it, reporting on every detail since they know that Cologne is such a dangerous city, especially for German girls, even in daytime. But no - nothing. Isn't that rather strange?"

Mainstream minimal or nil coverage of an 'asylum seeker' hacking to death a mother and son shopping in IKEA indicates something else.

- "C Morrison - that is simply false. The world is in a sorry state at the moment, but it is most certainly not the fault of people who think as I do."

It is the fault of all those who got their way - had their political choices turned into reality over the past fifty years - with all the disastrous consequences which have directly followed from them.

- "And you want to put the blame of people like me? Is this another of your conspiracy theories?"

Who wants open borders mass immigration multiculturalism so much they are prepared to argue that these consequences are a price worth paying?

All the blame lies with all those who enabled this but still, as then, focus on critiquing individuals and infelicitous phraseology or symbolism so as to avoid addressing the actual reality of events. As though what any commentator says about such events could have more effect upon individuals than the reality of the events themselves. Still using the same false critique of those in public life that could be used fifty years ago - that what they feared was 'never going to happen' - is an insult to all those innocents who have already avoidably suffered and all those who are yet to suffer.

[Mr Bunker]

C Morrison - so you're another one with no substantive arguments, telling me I'm wrong. You've done absolutely nothing to refute what I said in my last comment addressed to you. - You mention Peter Hitchens.

Well, Mr Hitchens is (in my opinion) a critical, extremely well informed journalist who is not afraid to speak his mind, even if what he says is unpopular or goes against mainstream opinion. He and I do not agree on everything, but we do agree on a lot, and Mr Hitchens is certainly not a populist, spreading fear, lies, misrepresentations, distortions and half-truths (half-lies) like some of those whose views seem to me to be remarkably like your own. If you'll forgive me for saying so.

PS - Which conspiracy theories have "eventually turned out to be true"?

[Mr Bunker]

Michael Wood - a quick and outspoken reaction:

It's not a question of my intelligence. My thoughts this morning are with the victims, their families and friends, of the despicable attack by a young Moslem man in a train in southern Germany. And my thoughts are also with two "devout men of faith", the born-again Christian Bush and the Catholic convert Blair whom we have to thank for the destabilization of the MIddle East, the upsurge of terrorism, the rise of ISIS, and the mass fliight of refugees from the chaos and misery that those two oh-so-religious war criminals have caused. But to put the blame entirely on them is perhaps a little unfair since the real cause of such human suffering is the mind-altering drug, religion, in particular in the form of Islam and Christianity which have been fighting each other now for centuries, on and off - when they've not been fighting or persecuting the Jews.

Bush and Blair are probably satisfied with the chaos they've caused, particular for Europe. If I had a wish that could be fulfilled,, it would be for the hundreds of thousands of asylum-seekers and refugees, fleeing from the chaos caused by Bush and Blair, to be shipped lock-stock-and-barrrel to the USA and, yes, to the UK too, and not leave them here for Germany to take care of - a country that famously refused to join the US-UK-led "coalition of the killing" and participate in the illegal Iraq war ... And some Brits blame Merkel! - Sheer hypocrisy.

PS - of course there are other causes of strife apart from religion- racism and nationalism, for example, and human nature! - but without (organized) religon there'd be one less.

[Michael Wood]

Mr Bunker..."All are characterized to a greater or lesser degree by self-interest instead of empathy for others, greed, a lust for power and intolerance of others who may think differently."

Please don't talk so round-shouldered, Mr Bunker.

You have obviously never investigated the true message of Christianity and you condemn yourself when you make such sweeping statements.
In doing so you are even guilty of judging innocent immigrants by the actions of crazed, drug-induced Islamic fundamentalists and also judging Christianity by the ignorance of vain people who themselves understand nothing about Christ's words and actions.

I think you are more intelligent than this, Mr Bunker.

[C. Morrison]

Mr Bunker | 18 July 2016 at 12:33 PM :
*** And you want to put the blame of people like me? ***

Well, since you've asked --- yes.

*** Is this another of your conspiracy theories? ***

You're the one who seems certain that there is a multi-faceted coalition of conspiracy against politically correct paragons of ideological non-disclosure (such as yourself).
For decades it has been very convenient -- but nowadays ever less credible -- for those who rule to dismiss inconvenient facts as "conspiracy theory". They'll have also run 'false flag' arguments which are easily derided, to discredit the rest.
Too few journalists are like Peter Hitchens, in questioning rather than uncritically relaying the political establishment line (which may well contradict itself from month to month or year to year anyway).
Just consider how often allegations dismissed as mere 'conspiracy theory' have eventually turned out to be true ... but you might prefer not to do that, if deep down you have a psychological compulsion to trust those who rule.

[Mr Bunker]

C Morrison - that is simply false. The world is in a sorry state at the moment, but it is most certainly not the fault of people who think as I do.

If anything, it's the fault of people who tbelieve that they, and they alone, are in possession of some "ultimate truth", political or religious. For example, communists, Maoists, Stalinists, Trots, religious fundametalists, born-again Christians, Islamists, imperialists, militarists, and capitalists. - amongst others. All are characterized to a greater or lesser degree by self-interest instead of empathy for others, greed, a lust for power and intolerance of others who may think differently.

And you want to put the blame of people like me? Is this another of your conspiracy theories?

[Mr Bunker]

loiuiseyvette (and Mrs B) - thanks for that reply. I'm sure that you and I have more ideals and moral principles in common than you might at first think. Just to repeat, I think being a "housewife and mother" can be a truly rewarding and satisfying occupation, and no less valuable than any career. But I think the choice must be left to the individual woman. That's all really.

It may interest you that my sister's two children (both now in their fifties and married) decided long ago that they did not want to have children. They didn't want to set children into the world in the state that it's in, so my sister tells me. I think that's "sub-optimal" too because having children is "natural" and children can be a great joy, but it was their free choice.

Incidentally I'm all in favour of men 'helping in the home' as well. I can't sew or knit, but I'm a dab hand with doing the shopping, making breakfast and the odd bit of cooking as well. I could handle pampers just as well as my wife but thank goodness that's over - until the great-grandchildren arrive, possibly.

[Michael Wood]

Alan Thomas.."Well' if I had any idea what this first line means and why it warrants an exclamation mark, I might be able to reply to your final question."

Your reply answers my question, Mr Thomas, quite unequivocally, thank you.

[Peter Charnley]

Mr Bunker, your replies on this thread are now nothing more than those of a functioning 'troll'.

I shall move on.

[Mr Bunker]

It way be of interest that yesterday, Sunday, the annual Kölner Lichter (Cologne Lights) took place. Pleasure boats on the Rhine sailed slowly down-river through the heart of this dangerous city where (as you have been told) people walk in fear (if they dare to go out at all) of sexual harrassment by immigrants with a different cultural background.

Cologne Lights takes place mainly darkness. And yesterday the banks of the Rhine and the bridges were lined with crowds of several hundred thousand men, women and children watching the brightly lit ships pass by and the fantastic firework display.

And as I'm sure you all (including Mr Watson and Mr Molyneux) expected, defenceless German women were being sexually molested and raped left, right and centre under cover of the night by Arabs and North African asylum seekers ... er, well, no, actually they were not. On the contrary, in fact.

As far as I know there were no incidents reported - except for one traffic accident and a drunken man who had to be fished out of the river. Everything appears to have gone off peacefully. But has that got a mention in the British media? I had thought they would be full of it, reporting on every detail since they know that Cologne is such a dangerous city, especially for German girls, even in daytime. But no - nothing. Isn't that rather strange?

[Alan Thomas]

Michael Wood

"The Word cannot be silenced! "

"Are you on the right track?"

Well' if I had any idea what this first line means and why it warrants an exclamation mark, I might be able to reply to your final question.

[louiseyvette]

Mrs B, your story of caring for your mother is the kind of thing people generally don't appreciate, when talking about work etc. It's about the relationships, not just getting stuff done, or money, or status. I liked the bit about the sunglasses. It made made me smile. I'm sure your mother appreciated your time with her and how you looked after her.

[louiseyvette]

Mr Bunker: "One thing I agree with though, and that is that both the extreme right and the extreme left are "UNHINGED""

I do wish we could have some kind of definition of "extreme left" and "extreme right" (and "centre").

When I said "caricature" I meant your silly comments reducing the upbringing of children to cooking, cleaning, household appliances etc.

I also basically object to any idea that caring for one's own children at home is somehow less important than a career, and that it's somehow a "waste" of an education.

Incidentally, a friend of mine has just today posted an article, via social media, about the number of women who regret having children, because with work and parenting they are too frazzled to cope. This strikes me as sub-optimal. Admittedly, mental health problems can happen to anyone, but I don't think mothers working outside the home is quite as marvellous as some people suggest.

[Mrs.B.]

Mr. Bunker

The 60's for me was about choice. Not what a few women decided it should be.Certainly my father raised a strong minded girl and taught me to debate and to be practical. You are right though, he wouldn't dream of dictating how my life should go. For me I wanted to get married and nurture my own children and made sure my partner wanted the same and I would not have children and give that task to others.
My children and their friends have seen tgat choice diminishing as others sneer if you don't make the choice women in pokitics think you should.
They encourage the squeezing of that choice of the traditional family and childcare.
Which is why agreed to do a large chunk of childcare for my grandchildren.
Able to do so because hubby is of the same mind.
We do what we think is right for our own and thankfully raised ours before a lot of strident M.P's decided our kind of family unit was not what they wanted. When governments let us get on with it, schools educated, we weren't dictated to or taxes or benefits designed to limit certain family choices or encourage choices a certain way.
Choice today is for those who conform to the right on messages.

[C. Morrison]

Mr Bunker | 17 July 2016 at 01:09 PM :
*** What's needed is a cool, calm and sensible approach (rather like mine!) - not extremism or populism. ***

What leads you to deduce that the line you support is not itself "extremist"?
The world has effectively been controlled for decades not by what you deem "extremists", but by alleged 'anti-extremists' of very similar perspectives to your own ... and just look at the corpse-strewn, people-displaced, chronically insecure, war-torn, polluted, looted and irredeemably indebted mess it is in.

[Mr Bunker]

Peter Charnley - I really don't know how to respond to your latest post since it contains nothing of substance, merely claims that I don't understand or have got everything wrong. But I do reject your accusation of contradiction, distortion and hypocrisy. I just wish you'd have backed it up with arguments. - One thing I agree with though, and that is that both the extreme right and the extreme left are "UNHINGED".

Contrary to what you say, I am fully aware of the problems and very much alarmed by the upsurge of nationalism and religious madness in the world. (Nice appears to be yet another example.) - What's needed is a cool, calm and sensible approach (rather like mine!) - not extremism or populism.