As I feared, my attempt to argue reasonably with the Atheist contributor ‘James’ was not a meeting of minds. I don’t expect these encounters to be, normally, for the reasons I’ve discussed. The modern militant atheists have closed their minds, contemptuously, to the possibility that they may be mistaken and have erected a caricature of religious believers as stupid, uneducated, anti-scientific morons which leads to a certain ‘de haut en bas’ style in their approach, which they have done nothing to earn.
But the exercise wasn’t entirely useless. The response of ‘James’ and some other militant unbelievers makes their simple but unyielding misunderstanding of my position so plain that I can quite easily show it to any unprejudiced observer, and do so below with my inserted and marked comments. The difference between us is that they are trying to prove me wrong, which they can’t do, and I am trying to offer them some common ground, on to which they fear to advance. It’s like trying to give a free gift to someone who is convinced it is a trick.
The argument also produced some cogent counters to the arguments of ‘James’ from contributors, so good that I have included them below in this post.
Let me begin with the second epistle of ’James’:
'James' writes: 'At the risk of boring Peter Hitchens further, here is my reply. In any other sphere of discussion when presented with unconvincing arguments and bad or no evidence, you reject the position until new or better evidence is presented. All I argue is that our normal standards of evidence and rigour should be applied to arguments about God.
*** PH. Once again, there is a very simple reason why this cannot be so. We are here arguing about belief and faith, not testable knowledge. Both my religious opinion and the religious opinion of ‘James’ are just that – religious opinions about the unknowable. They cannot be tested like the various claims of scientists, historians, etc. Does ‘James’ accept this? I am not sure he does. I think he is convinced as any Ayatollah in the courtyards of Qom or as any hillbilly preacher, of the absolute truth of his claims.
‘James’: I would be happy to discuss the arguments further but Peter Hitchens is completely closed to the idea that an atheist could be motivated out of anything other than selfish hedonism
****PH writes: No, I am not. I have never said that *all* atheists are so motivated, and do not think so. I specifically said in my first reply to him ‘I do not believe I have ever used the word 'all' in this case '. I also said : ‘I am not making any individual or even universal claim, and any of my opponents are free to show that it is not their motive.’ He neither acknowledges nor attempts to rebut these points. Like all bad debaters, when he finds a difficult bit, he avoids it completely and pretends it doesn’t exist.
Indeed, he has the nerve to repeat the same false charge as if I had never rebutted it. ‘James' shouldn't make these things up. Let me give some more examples. Many atheists in our secular society , like many cradle Christians, believe in their faith out of conformism and fashion, and have never considered it deeply enough to have a motivation. ‘James’, by all appearances, may be one such. The recurrence in their arguments of the same tricks and stylistic habits, ‘gods’ in the plural without an initial capital, for instance, is often a sign of a faith casually and self-protectively picked up from a peer-group.
‘James’: (PH might do well to remember that he, along with everyone else, doesn’t actually know much about human nature, and that semi-autobiographical novels and his own former atheism are not evidence that atheists are generally selfish and hedonistic).
***PH replies: I am pretty confident that I know a good deal more about human nature than does ‘James’, my knowledge having been quite dearly bought in more than 60 years of far-from-saintly life. It is very interesting that he completely ignores the congruence, evident to any campus visitor, between the angry atheist surge and the ‘libertarian’ cry of ‘nobody tells me what I can do with my own body’ which is the slogan of the drugtaker and the sexual libertine. That’s why all my brother’s fans hate me so. They liked having an educated plummy voice telling them their hedonism was fine and their small-town pastors were stupid morons. They are doubly infuriated to hear my very similar educated plummy voice saying that actually it isn’t that simple. How dare I profane the sacred memory?
He also ignores totally my point that : ‘Because this (hedonism) is the demonstrable default position of humanity anyway, because it is equally true of many nominal religious believers, whose faith can quite rightly be judged by how well they keep to the precepts they claim to espouse.’ The truth of the first is so blazingly obvious that he couldn’t possibly rebut it, and the second is probably something he would say himself under other circumstances, but it doesn’t suit him to do so now. So he ignores it completely. Again. Duck and cover.
He concentrates instead on Maugham’s eloquent autobiographical passage, which I doubt very much he has read ( I wonder if he even knows who Maugham was or how he lived) , but dismisses anyway, and on my own undoubted personal experience, which he dismisses as of being of no worth at all. ***
‘Paul’: So, as he so rightly says in other contexts, when arguing with someone who won’t treat their opponent seriously and treat them with due respect, the only winning move is not to play.
I will make a few brief points, as I don’t want to be thought to be ducking them, but I won’t bore PH with any further replies unless he is prepared to argue with me as though I were a moral and decent human being.
***PH : I have never said otherwise. I know nothing about him and have said nothing about him. For the third time, my speculation on the motives of atheists has never been all-inclusive and he cannot claim that it is directed at him personally. He is making things up, to suit him - an interesting characteristic in one so resolutely rejecting the idea that we choose our beliefs to suit us. He has chosen this one to suit him - it sort of gets him out of a corner from which there is no escape by actual argument. Alas for him, it is demonstrably untrue.
‘James’: On the point about the complex universe being evidence for a theistic God. This is, at best, an argument for pantheism or deism, not for theism, and certainly not for the Abrahamic God. No claims in the Bible are supported by the complexity of our universe.
*** PH: We are not here arguing about the Abrahamic God or any particular religion. Poorly-equipped anti-God people always make this silly mistake. The argument about the existence of God is entirely separate from arguments about individual faiths. Deism is a subdivision of Theism, not the other way round.
‘James’ : 'Einstein was a believer in Spinoza’s god, which has nothing to do with theism. He specifically rejected the idea of a personal God.
***PH writes: Quite so, which is why I specifically referred to : ‘the existence of something which might be called 'God' ' rather than to a personal God.
‘James’ All this is easily verifiable. His beliefs on God and its existence are far closer to mine, than to yours, not that it matters much.
***PH writes: I do not agree, either that it doesn’t matter or that Einstein’s position is closer to his position, of absolute rejection of anything resembling a deity than to mine, a belief that He may exist, accompanied by a strong desire for Him to do so.
‘James’:
When Dawkins talks about aliens, he specifically describes them as “Godlike”, and different from the usual beliefs in God in one important way: Their complexity would only come about through a process similar to that of evolution. What this has to do with theism, I have no idea.
****PH writes: Then he is not thinking. Others have had no difficulty in seeing its relevance.
‘James’:
On the topic of addiction. Fair enough, I concede that those who argue for addiction claim it is a fact, while you do not claim the same about God. This was a mistake.
***PH writes: I am glad to see him admit it. A rare glint of gold amid the mud.
‘James’: I would like to say though, that a lot of my taxes go in support of the state belief in Anglicanism,
***PH writes : They do? Perhaps he would like to tell me how much taxation is spent on the Church of England? Figures, please, and references.
which leads to absurdities such as the Windsor Family and the Lords Spiritual, with which I profoundly disagree.
***PH writes: I hope all readers will note the change of subject here, and the comic-strip republicanism which is also revealed.
'Paul': We both agree that a belief in addiction should not lead to state support, perhaps you would extend the logic to other beliefs like Anglicanism.
On the general topic of hedonism and selfishness. It is entirely possible for these things to be criticised without needing to appeal to Christian Morality.
***PH writes: Yes, I know. But there is a great difference between disliking these things in a specific instance or because they affect you badly personally, or they damage the national budget or reduce industrial production, or whatever it is - and having an absolute prohibition on them because they are wrong at all times and in all places . This difference is important because so many wrong acts are done in secret, their culprits unknown to their victims and undiscovered by the authorities. There is also the human tendency, most obvious in dismembering, crushing, burning and suffocating foreign civilians and permitting abortions, to claim that various forms of wickedness aren’t, in this case, wickedness at all.
Finally, I have one question. As you believe that belief in God is a choice, how is it that objective morality can come from it?
**** PH replies: I don’t see that this is an inconsistency. I believe in the existence of objective morality and absolute truth. I do not state that they definitely exist because I cannot (any more than he can state that they don’t) . It is, of course, a claim but its point is that it requires absolute standards of goodness from those who make it. That is why I choose to believe in it. Large objective consequences can be shown to flow from the general belief in its non-existence, and likewise from the general belief in its existence. I can offer no other test this side of the grave.
Mr ‘Bunker’ then joined the argument, perhaps feeling left out, as ‘James’ has pretty much completely restated the case which Mr ‘Bunker’ first made here about 2,000 years ago. ****
Mr ‘Bunker’ wrote: ‘If (as I assume) Mr Hitchens is telling the truth when he says he is a believer, then let him prove that he is able to choose to believe the opposite - just for, say, one week as from tomorrow, in which we could argue with him about it. Then he could return to the belief 'of his choice'!’
Of course he could 'pretend' to believe God doesn't exist, if only for one week, but that's not the test. The test is whether he could 'truly' believe (just for one week) that God does not exist. And argue, genuinely and credibly, with believers on this blog that there is no God, that God is a figment of human imagination and that only deluded people can believe such rubbish.
I don't think Mr Hitchens can do that. I don't think that choice is open to him. He cannot choose arbitrarily to believe the opposite of what he does in fact believe - and neither can I!!! (There is some mysterious force preventing him!!!!!)’
****PH writes ‘There is nothing mysterious about it. The 'force' that is preventing me from choosing the atheist creed again just now is my strong desire, which I have developed rationally over many decades, to live in a designed, created and purposeful universe, to which justice, love and liberty are essential. I cannot unlearn the experiences or forget the knowledge which brought me to this desire, though I can, alas, imagine appalling circumstances which might make we wish once more for another kind of universe. As I say, the key is the desire. That is why the desire of the atheists is so interesting, and why they are so reluctant to admit this or discuss it. When you desire, you can and will choose what suits your desire. What does Mr Bunker desire, which enables him to choose the cruel, meaningless and purposeless chaos in which he seeks to live? He won't even accept that his choice is motivated by a desire, so he won’t talk about it. Note that, one again, I can easily answer his question. He won't even consider mine.
‘Paul Small’ also joined in to say:
PH's attempts to rationalise his beliefs just cause him further problems as his logical inconsistencies are exposed. He concludes this piece saying: "Knowledge of God's existence or non-existence is not available to us. Fact, reason and logic cannot take anyone any further than agnosticism, as he well knows." Yet earlier in the same post, PH wrote: "Belief in God, once it is accepted, requires the individual to reform and govern himself according to eternal laws which he cannot change - often to his own severe disadvantage." This is self-contradictory. If knowledge of God and His existence is unavailable to us, then so is any knowledge of His supposed eternal laws. Instead, PH's principle that we choose our beliefs must apply equally to our beliefs about these 'eternal laws': Does God exist? You can choose Yes or No. If you choose Yes, then is (for example) homosexuality a sin? Is it wrong, acceptable or a duty to kill non-believers? You must choose yourself because fact, reason and logic cannot tell us. The same is true for every belief about God, if it is true for the belief that He exists in the first place. How can you reform and govern yourself according to laws if you do not know what those laws are? On the other hand, if you do know what these eternal laws are, you must necessarily also know that God exists. In which case, it is not a choice.
****PH replies : Mr ‘Small’ is (this is so common) confusing two different processes. One, the choice of belief in a God or a comparable force (see discussions elsewhere about Einstein, Spinoza, etc) and two, the actual religion which the believer then adopts, or perhaps doesn’t. They are distinct. Once one has decided to believe that there *is*an absolute, one then has to try to discover what it is and what this fact means to us. This is the cause of philosophy and of theology, and of the huge energy devoted by so many very clever people over so many centuries to trying to establish this from the various instructions we appear to be have been given. You have to accept first of all that there are rules. You must then spend the rest of your life trying to discover what they are, and how to obey them. But Christ’s summary of the law, combined with the Sermon on the Mount and the parables, all in His own words, seem to me to me to offer a fairly straightforward guide to anyone seriously interested. But of course you have to approach them in that way, not as a teenage scoffer.
My thanks to
‘John Baker’, who wrote:
‘This concept of 'choosing' to believe something is really causing people problems. It shouldn't. It should be uncontroversial. Choosing to believe something is not restricted to the philosophical or the spiritual. People choose to believe all kinds of things, including and particularly of a temporal nature, every day of their lives. Most of the 'facts' people think they 'know', they have chosen to believe. It is impossible, for an individual to 'know' that a particular event or discovery occurred, if they were not themselves present, and it wasn't recorded on some reliable medium. They have to take the word of others. Or not take the word of others. Most of the 'facts' about events in the world are derived by individuals from media of some kind, or from word of mouth, not from personal experience. An individual may sit down to watch a BBC news report about some event that the BBC claims happened. Most individuals do not start phoning around to check if the news report is true. They believe the report is true, they believe the report is untrue, or they don't form an opinion. If they believe the report is true, they are choosing to do so. They base their choice on something they already believe. Such as, the BBC is a source of authority, and is trustworthy. If they believe the report is untrue, they are choosing to do. They base their choice on something they already believe. Such as the BBC is purveyor of propaganda, and is untrustworthy. It will often not be possible for an individual to verify the report, even if they wanted to, and had the time, and money to do so. A event could be between two other individuals who attest that something specific was said, but that was not recorded on any medium. Whether the first individual believes the other two individuals is a matter of choice. They can't 'know' what happened, if they weren't there. This extends to any event at which an individual wasn't present, or experiment they did not carry out themselves. People do not start carrying out an investigation, an experiment, or calculate probabilities, for every potential 'fact' that comes to their attention. It is as impossible for individuals to 'know' about most of the things they think know about, as it is for them to peer beyond the universe and 'know' if there is a God or no God. Everyone chooses to believe things, every day.’
Likewise to Peter Charnley, who wrote:
‘@James | 28 July 2015 at 02:27 PM ‘James’ is firing wide of the original mark with many of his replies. James:-“On the point about the complex universe being evidence for a theistic God. This is, at best, an argument for pantheism or deism, not for theism, and certainly not for the Abrahamic God. No claims in the Bible are supported by the complexity of our universe.” This has got nothing to do with the straightforward question of whether there is or is not a God - which is the original primary question as to whether extraordinary structured complexity arose naturally or as a consequence of a conscious act.
James:-“Einstein was a believer in Spinoza’s god, which has nothing to do with theism. He specifically rejected the idea of a personal God. All this is easily verifiable. His beliefs on God and its existence are far closer to mine, than to yours, not that it matters much.” Again this is a dilution of the point under consideration. There are many people who believe in a Spinozistic or Deistic 'God of Nature' who or which leaves Nature and its creatures (including its human creatures) entirely to their own devices. I believe that Anthony Flew, famous for being ‘the world’s most notorious atheist who changed his mind’, moved through this stage. And he famously argued against Richard Dawkins that ‘natural selection’ does not explain the existence of life, affirming that there is today no satisfactory naturalistic explanation for the first emergence of life from non-living matter, or for the capacity of life to reproduce itself genetically, and observing that there isn't even any sign of such an explanation on the horizon 'if indeed’ as Flew suggested ‘there ever could be.' In short, James, the fact that a Spinozistic God has nothing to do with theism is irrelevant to the question of whether the universe came into being as a deliberate act of a conscious mind - i.e. a God. James:-“When Dawkins talks about aliens, he specifically describes them as “Godlike”, and different from the usual beliefs in God in one important way: Their complexity would only come about through a process similar to that of evolution. What this has to do with theism, I have no idea.” Again you are functioning wide of the debating mark, James – for largely the same reasons as above. James (now entering into the realm of a theistic personal God) :- “On the general topic of hedonism and selfishness. It is entirely possible for these things to be criticised without needing to appeal to Christian Morality.” You may very well abhor hedonism and selfishness as a self-proclaimed atheist. However, simply dismissing the origin of absolute morality does not discount that origin – whether you believe in it or not. James:-“Finally, I have one question. As you believe that belief in God is a choice, how is it that objective morality can come from it?” For the same reason as above. You can choose to acknowledge that origin or to deny it. However people who deny a definitive source of absolute objective morality are more likely to stray from it than those who don’t. The history of the human race, particularly the 20th century, makes that self-evident.’