Mormon Exodus: Trump, Clinton Tied in Utah at 26%; McMullin 22%, Johnson 14%
Will the conservative alternative sneak past the Libertarian nominee in the Electoral College?
Deseret NewsOn the evening of Oct. 7, after the "grab-them-by-the-pussy" tape had been reverberating for a few hours, I tweeted that "The next polls from Utah should be interesting." And holy mother of God are they.
A Y2 Analytics poll of 500 likely Utah voters from Oct. 10-11 was published this morning, and the results are the craziest numbers I've seen in an already unfathomable election year: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are tied at 26 percent, independent conservative Evan McMullin is closing fast at 22 percent, Gary Johnson is at 14, and Jill Stein's at 1. This in a state where Mitt Romney received 73 percent of the vote in 2012, and which Republicans have won since 1976 by an average of 36 percentage points.
This is Y2 Analytics' first Utah poll this year, so we don't have a clean before-and-after comparison yet. As I mentioned in the bottom of this Saturday post about the Mormon-led Republican defection from Trump, two of only three previous Utah polls that included McMullin looked like this:
DT 34% HC 25% GJ 13% EM 12% JS 1% OT 8% UN 8% (Sept. 12-19 Tribune-Hinckley)
DT 39% HC 24% GJ 13% EM 12% JS 0% DC 2% OT 6% UN 7% (Sept. 1-9 Tribune-Hinckley)
(DC = Darrell Castle, OT is other, UN undecided)
So as I pointed out in August, Trump was already in an unprecedentedly weak position in the Beehive State before this latest evidence of his moral vulgarity surfaced. Now Mormons (who make up an estimated 55 percent of Utah's population) look poised to run screaming from the Republican Party's standard-bearer. The Y2 survey found that a whopping 94 percent of respondents were aware of Trump's sex-bragging tape, and that McMullin—a Utah native, Brigham Young University grad, and Mormon—was competitive despite only 52 percent being aware enough of him to form an opinion. In addition, according to the Deseret News write-up, "McMullin soundly beats Trump among those in the poll who identified themselves members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
LDS Media TalkThe campaigns of both McMullin and Johnson are based in Utah, so this poll will intensify what was already a top regional priority for both. The Johnson/Bill Weld shop started its latest fundraising pitch yesterday like so: "A realistic analysis of polling data across the country shows that Governors Johnson and Weld can win 5 or more states by focusing resources in these key purple states."
Johnson is on the ballot in all 50 states plus Washington, D.C.; McMullin is on just 11 (compared to Darrell Castle's 24 and Rocky De La Feunte's 20). In most of those states, McMullin isn't making much of a measurable dent—in Virginia this week, for example, he recently registered at 1 percent compared to Johnson's 7. But it's also true that his name doesn't always appear on polls, and that many of his states are underpolled to begin with. I would expect him to pull some votes in Idaho (a safely Republican state with the second-largest concentration of Mormons), plus Colorado and New Mexico, each of which feature 2 percent Mormon populations and are easily reachable from the Salt Lake media market.
Gary Johnson, meanwhile, looks to be most competitive in his home base of New Mexico, where a recent poll had him at 24 percent; plus third-party-friendly Alaska, where a recent pre-Trump-tape poll had him at 18 percent. He was also beating the spread between Clinton and Trump in 18 states, last time I ran the numbers.
If either Johnson or McMullin win a state outright, it would mark the first such success by a third-party presidential candidate since George Wallace won five in 1968. With Clinton's lead widening over Trump of late, the drama of such a milestone would lessen. But it would be a huge deal either for a Libertarian Party attempting to cement its status as the third alternative in American politics, or for #NeverTrump conservatives looking to build from the wreckage of a self-damaging election. There is no doubt that the LP will win the overall bronze in the popular vote, but will the conservative alternative sneak past in the Electoral College? The answer to that question will give us some interesting clues about what post-Trump politics will look like in America.
Photo Credit: Evan McMullin for president
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If Trump does manage to finally put a bullet in the Republican party's brain without getting elected, it would justify building a gold-plated statue in his honor. Maybe next to the one he's already building.
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Electing Trump will do more damage to the GOP.
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SIV, I thought you were a huge Trump supporter. What changed your mind?
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What gives you the impression SIV wasn't supporting Johnson?
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SIV has been one of the most vocal Trump supporters around here.
There are a lot of people around here who basically went with Trump couldn't be worse than Hillary. (Myself included) But SIV has been happy to serve as a Trump fluffer.
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Someone grabbed his pussy.
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Is that better or worse than grabbing its motherfucking leg? /trying to keep up
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You can get a better grip on the leg, so somewhat better. Though you could always grip the pussy in the same way you would grip a bowling ball. I think it comes down to technique.
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What makes you think he changed his mind? He could be supporting Trump in the hopes he will damage the GOP.
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Trump's longest-lasting legacy will be the damage to the House and Senate GOP control, caused by his initiation of a Stupid Party Civil War.
By encouraging his supporters to abstain from voting GOP down-ballot, he's effectively handing control of all three branches of government to Canklestein.
How does "Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, William Jefferson Clinton" sound, Trumptards?
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I think they're hoping that burning down the GOP will somehow spread to the Democrats.
The Dems are going to be roasting marshmallows over the coals of the GOP. Say goodbye to your gun rights, hello to speech codes!
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No, it's even worse than that. How does Chief Justice Obama sound to you?
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Title IX Czar Chelsea Clinton.
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It's a stint she'll do while managing the Foundation on the side. You know, because having either Bill or Hillary sitting on the board would be a conflict of interest but intermediating it through their only child makes it totes legit.
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Sounds like a pathway to looting the Academy.
Sweet. -
The intraparty fighting won't last long, whatever the outcome. I doubt Trump's hard-core supporters are dedicated enough to maintain recriminations in any further elections if he loses, and most Republicans haven't turned on him hard enough to draw their wrath anyway (most offer measured criticism coupled with mealy-mouthed support). If he wins the fighting will probably last through the next cycle with him getting challenged in the primaries, and by that time he will probably have disappointed his supporters enough that their fire will be gone.
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For an example of the staying power of movements built around a cult of personality, just look at millenials that voted for Obama.
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Stupid Party Civil War
I anticipate a short paragraph in a future American history book detailing this episode as such.
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As opposed to the long sections on the Mormon Uprising in Harry Turtledove's alternative history novels.
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There are at least two sides to a war, you know.
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Gold-plated what?
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Unsold steaks?
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As in, give the entire government over to the Democrats with Clinton in the White House?
Not sure that's worth celebrating.
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He'll deserve his own Pyramid burial chamber if he keeps Cankles from being POTUS. I don't care how dumb or whatever anyone thinks Trump is, there's no way he can ever match the evil of Cankles no matter what he does. She's the vile spawn of Satan.
In case there's anyone here who's not convinced of that yet, they will be before her first term is up.
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there's no way he can ever match the evil of Cankles no matter what he does
I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly within his capabilities.
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I call on McMullin and Johnson to drop out and throw their support behind _________________ !
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Giant Meteor.
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Robot Nixon.
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Freshly Grabbed Pussy
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Abradolf Lincler!
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A great public servant!
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Can we kick Weld off the ticket and put McMullin in his place?
That'd be great if the LP could take Utah.
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You had me at "kick Weld off the ticket".
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Kang
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We was?
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freshly grabbed pussy
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THIEF
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Oh, damn, am I guilty of post appropriation? Or maybe thought appropriation? Or idea appropriation?
So much for avoiding a title IX infraction...
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I'm gonna grab your pussy so hard.
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What are these Mormon bitches worried about? Their magic underwear protects them from any pussy-grabbing Trump might want to exert there.
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Their magic underwear protects them from any pussy-grabbing Trump might want to exert there.
That's not how the magic underwear works--that would be ridiculous.
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of course it's not that garment. It's the carbon-fiber chastity belts. (Metal was too heavy and prone to rust.)
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So if I understand the math properly, you're saying that 74% of the voters in Utah are voting against Hillary Clinton?
Why is Utah so much smarter than the rest of the country?
Is it because they're Mormon?
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More men?
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I'll take a government dominated by religiously absurd outsiders who are obsessed with self-sufficiency over California's progressives any day.
Hell, this country was founded by religiously absurd outsiders who were obsessed with self-sufficiency.
Buying cold beer to go is a pain in the ass in Utah, and I doubt they'll legalize marijuana (unlike all the states around them), but other than that?
You're free to be stupid and ride around without a helmet.
You can buy and carry a gun, and the government isn't about to give you any trouble with that.
I broke down on the highway in Utah over the summer on my bike (looking like I'd been three days on the road with a bandana tied around my head)--and four different people stopped to see if I needed help in an hour.
Nice people. Mormon people.
All that, and 74% of them are voting against Hillary Clinton, too?
I bet half of the people voting for her are just pissed off at their Mormon neighbors for making it so hard to buy cold beer to go.
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I was just there for vacation and I agree with pretty much everything you said. Also, 4% beer is actually pretty nice - don't have to worry about waking up with a hangover.
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If you can't get a hangover off 4% beer, you're just not slamming them fast enough. And you can get beer stronger than 4% there, at state liquor stores IIRC, at the brewery itself, or drive over the border to Wyoming and stock up.
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They sell the good stuff, too, it's just that they won't sell it cold.
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I was surprised at how good some of it was.
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I think my all around favorite beer is Cutthroat.
http://www.uintabrewing.com/products/cutthroat
It's only 4% because it's made for the Utah market. They don't sell it outside of Utah.
The other major ones out of Utah are Devastator and Polygamy.
Polygamy's byline is "Take some home to the wives".
Devastator is 8% by volume.
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Devastator has a burning ram crashing over a Mormon tabernacle.
The label reads:
"If you're going to sin,sin big. With 8% alc/vol and a creamy richness, this brew has developed a serious cult following. Imagine that - a cult following in Utah?!"
LOL
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Polygamy was quite good. Didn't try Devastator.
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Homebrewing is legal. You can make your own rocket fuel if you need to.
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Evanston's economy depends on Utah's liquor laws.
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But they're icky Christian fundies with backward views on gays and abortion and therefore must be purged from
politesociety. -
Christian fundies
Well, Christian-ish. I don't know about fundie, they keep changing their prophecy to keep up with societal developments. Historically, Christians have hated them more than anyone.
must be purged from polite society.
Isn't that why Utah is a thing?
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Except they have the most polite society of all.
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I bet half of the people voting for her are just pissed off at their Mormon neighbors for making it so hard to buy cold beer to go.
Naah, I lived in Utah for four months. About a quarter of Utah being leftists sounds about right, even more so in Salt Lake City.
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A good friend of mine is a hardcore progressive. Naturally, she works for one of the universities.
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It's easy to be a progressive when there aren't any in power.
Try living in California. The reason progressives might not want to live in California?
Why is California over taxed, over-regulated, an expensive place to live, with not much in the way of personal freedom, bad schools, a failing justice system, etc., etc., etc.?
It's because the place is overrun with progressives.
Being a progressive in Utah is soooooooooooooooo easy.
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About a quarter of Utah being leftists sounds about right, even more so in Salt Lake City.
And even higher in The Avenues.
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I'm going to Utah for work in a week. My mission is to interrogate the natives. I'll report back.
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They are into missions, so should work out for you.
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Utah has the best non-resident concealed carry permit with reciprocal rights. I strongly advocate that people pursue that license as a non-resident.
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Hahahahah, and Utah goes to the spook.
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Don't vote for a third party candidate. It won't make any difference in the long run, and will only help Trump or Clinton win.
/sarc
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If this prick hadn't jumped in Johnson would stand a good chance of taking the state. This was less about thumping Trump and more about torpedoing the Libertarian Party.
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McMullin really grabbed the LP by the pussy.
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I understand the temptation to be hypocritical on that issue, but that's what the Trump and Hillary people have been saying about Johnson, too.
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Well, the lp has been around 40 years.
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And the Republicans have been around since the 1850s.
They say the same thing.
More choices is better . . . unless you're the default choice, I guess?
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It's all about electing Hitlery. Nobody cares about the Libertarian Party.
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You do.
You stay up late thinking about the Libertarian Party.
It makes you soooooooo horny.
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Good thing SIV got grabbed by the pussy.
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Kind of easy when your entire person is made out of pussy.
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There's so much to work with in that comment.
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Of course Johnson became pretty hard to elect in Utah once he said:
"But if you're going to convict me on my motivation for doing that, now you're back to religious freedom. I mean under the guise of religious freedom, anybody can do anything. Back to Mormonism. Why shouldn't somebody be able to shoot somebody else because their freedom of religion says that God has spoken to them and that they can shoot somebody dead."
The sort of TBM that can't vote for Trump is going to have a heck of a time voting for him after that one.
And he showed his libertarian bonafides with this on the New Mexico gay marriage photographer.
"Look. Here's the issue. You've narrowly defined this. But if we allow for discrimination — if we pass a law that allows for discrimination on the basis of religion — literally, we're gonna open up a can of worms when it come stop discrimination of all forms, starting with Muslims …"
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That didn't help him, but the kind of people who wouldn't vote for a candidate over that are probably the same people for the most part who wouldn't vote for a pro-choice candidate (which is a matter of life and death to these voters, so likely more important).
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http://www.businessinsider.com.....et-2016-10
HSBC's technical-analysis team has thrown up the ultimate warning signal.
In a note to clients released Wednesday, Murray Gunn, the head of technical analysis for HSBC, said he had become on "RED ALERT" for an imminent sell-off in stocks given the price action over the past few weeks.
Gunn uses a type of technical analysis called the Elliott Wave Principle, which tracks alternating patterns in the stock market to discern investors' behavior and possible next moves.
In late September, Gunn said the stock market's moves looked eerily similar to those just before the 1987 stock market crash. Citi's Tom Fitzpatrick also highlighted the market's similarities to the 1987 crash just a few days ago. On September 30, Gunn said stocks were under an "orange alert," as they looked to him as if they had topped out.
And now, given the 200-point decline for the Dow on Tuesday, Gunn thinks the drop is here.
If this is true, I think the country will suddenly have something more interesting to talk about than grabbing pussy.
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Shit.
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What worries me about that is that it isn't Infowars or zerohedge saying it. It is Business Insider and they are not relying on some crank who has been predicting a black swan event for the last 20 years. It is the head of analysis for a very big and important bank. He may not be right, but he sure as hell should be taken seriously.
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Everybody was screaming about DB's 14B fine when the real news was that they were carrying 50T of derivatives on their books. 50 fucking trillion, one bank. I don't care if you're cross betting or not, that can wipe out your cash reserves instantaneously if the market moves at all sideways.
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The government has done nothing since the last crash except try and recreate the factors that caused it. TARP and Dodd Frank did nothing except further consolidate banks, socialize risk and make the effects of a crash more catastrophic. And unlike 2008, there is no more cushion left in the economy for printing money to finance saving their asses. When a crash does happen, and it will eventually, we will have the reckoning that we put off in 01 and again in 08 and it is going to be a nightmare.
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I certainly underestimated the Fed's capability to inflate the bubble again. At this point, Yellen is openly talking about buying stocks and corporate bonds. It's out of control.
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Yep. I'm not at all surprised that almost no one paid attention, but it's still upsetting.
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Business Insider is a joke. You really rely on them for financial information?
Wow, just wow.
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It's ominous at the moment. The PPT is gearing up.
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i have not seen that plunge protection team acronym is a very long time. 2009 perhaps.
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I would have thought that with the supreme court on the line, multiple undeclared wars, a government speeding toward bankruptcy, and the erosion of pretty much all of our constitutionally protected rights, there would be more interesting things to talk about than grabbing by the pussy.
But that's just me, i guess
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Look, letting Trump get away with talking like that is why the Brock Turner's of the world exist.
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If this is true, I think the country will suddenly have something more interesting to talk about than grabbing pussy.
LOL. Can't tell if serious.
Don't stand there with your hand on your ass waiting for THAT to happen.The country has shown over and over that they will ignore things like that in favor of pussy grabbing.
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Also there's a new rule on MMFs coming into play this Friday. Their value will be allowed to float instead of being fixed at 1:1. Since MMFs are a vehicle for short term cash parking, this raises risk and will probably reduce liquidity. Liquidity reductions tend have nasty effects on stock prices.
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Looking at McMullin's webpage, there are several areas of overlap** with libertarians
Tax code
Regulations
Debt and entitlements
Charter schools
Energy and environment
Federalism and presidential power
2AAreas with partial overlap:
Health care reform
Poverty
Trade and jobsAreas with no overlap or on which libertarians can't agree:
Military and foreign intervention
Abortion
ImmigrationI'm not stupid enough to believe that people might vote for McMullin because of his policy positions (it's much more about not being Trump but still belonging to a particular branch of conservative culture), but if he does well in certain states then maybe it's time to revisit some old strategic alliances...
** SLDs and normal caveats about campaign promises vs reality apply
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The thing about McMullin is that unlike Johnson and Stein, he is not an honest candidate. He is not running to promote a party or set of ideas. He is running for the single purpose of dividing the right and giving the election to Hillary.
Johnson and Stein are trying to win or if not build as much of a base for their respective parties as possible. Their runs have nothing to do with Trump or Hillary. The Greens and the Libertarians run candidates every year. This guy is nothing like that. There are plenty of good reasons to vote for Stein or Johnson if you agree with them and want the Greens or LP to have more of a voice. There is no reason to vote for McMullin other than you want Hillary to win and are too dishonest to admit it.
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I'm not voting for McMullin and I haven't followed his campaign closely enough to know if he might actually believe any of what he says or if it really is just a way of giving the never Trump crowd a place to go. The latter seems pretty plausible.
But I wasn't advocating outreach to McMullin. Rather, I'm suggesting that the places where he is doing well might be ripe for some moderate libertarian advances. This could work particularly well at the state level since the areas of disagreement with libertarians are mostly at the federal level. Maybe a place like Utah could be a launching ground for a particular wing of the LP.
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I know you were not. I just find his candidacy to be very dishonest. If the people backing him want to start a third party, they should do it. Instead, they are trying to sabotage Trump and elect Hillary in hopes of skulking back into the GOP and taking over. It is really greaseball shit if you ask me.
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This could work particularly well at the state level since the areas of disagreement with libertarians are mostly at the federal level. Maybe a place like Utah could be a launching ground for a particular wing of the LP.
The problem with this is that the state parties are independent of the federal parties (de jure, at least, de facto there's some dependency there, of course), so the state parties are already closer to their constituents than the federal parties, leaving less room for an insurgent party to grow, even if it might be a better fit for the state than the national version of that state's favored party. -
True. Consider that McMullin despite what he said when he announced his campaign on August 8 that he would sue states over onerous ballot access laws in states where he had little time to collect signatures. McMullin has not filed one lawsuits.He had very strong potential lawsuits against Wyoming and Florida, states which kept him off the ballot even though he satisfied the requirements. McMullin and the people who put him up as a candidate support the two-party system. They have no desire to make ballot-access easier in any way that may help third parties and independent candidates. They have no desire to start another party.
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Exactly. They are just a false flag candidate hoping to divide the opposition to Hillary. And it is a direct assault on our democracy. You can't have a democracy unless all of the candidates are honest and not just trolling operations set up to deceive people and help one of the other candidates.
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You can't have a democracy unless all of the candidates are honest and not just trolling operations set up to deceive people and help one of the other candidates.
Jeezuz John, you CAN'T be serious.
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But where does McMullin stand on the all important issue of pussy grabbing?
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I find most of these upper class conservative types to be prissy and generally sexually repressed and not in a good way.
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"generally sexually repressed and not in a good way"
Is there any "good way" to be sexually repressed? I mean in general, not context-specific, such as while enrolled at a university.
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Periodically, with bursts where you go crazy and fuck like there is no tomorrow?
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If you are the pool boy?
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Do you look down your nose at them?
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Yes. Yes I do.
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Do you look down your nose at them?
Yes. Yes I do.If someone posted your photograph to reason would the commentariat reaction be "Needs more Labels"?
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Yes. Yes it would.
Out of respect, we would insist that some of the labels be misspelled.
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My guess is: He's all for it -- provided all the women involved are all currently his wives.
Sorry, but that joke was so easy I could not resist.
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Seems like a Mormon Progressive of the Romney mold via-a-vis the Reid, but totally behind the power of government to help mankind transform itself.
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Yeah, I honestly think the guy's got his priorities straight as far as platform goes. You don't have to be a libertarian purist to do a lot of good things, and his economic policies are definitely good things.
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Serious question: Could Mormons get on board with Hillary Clinton if we thought of Hillary as America's First Wife?
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Would she have to be First Wife? I mean, could she be Second Wife or even Third?
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I was going to say "bottom bitch" but I feared the only one who would understand that term would be Heroic Mulatto.
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We need an expert on the appropriate term for the First Bitch. Does anybody here got the contact info for A Pimp Named Slickback?
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Bottom bitch.
I am that expert.
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He's the only one who watches South Park here?
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McMullin is on just 11 (compared to Darrell Castle's 24 and Rocky De La Feunte's 20).
REASON FINALLY MENTIONS DARRELL CASTLE.
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He'll always be Mal to me.
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ha ha
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I've *mentioned* him before, though haven't written anything of substance. Do you have recommendations/requests?
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Do you have recommendations/requests?
Two Fifth Column Episodes a week. Get some of the Women of Reason on as guests, and let the commentariat rotate through on a 5 minute segment at the end of every episode where we explain why you guys were all wrong.
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At least once a moon, have a SugarFree reading. Get Michael Hihn to guest-host once in a while.
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Put AC in charge of an episode once a year. Spend the rest of the year trying to decode the wisdom contained therein.
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Also, get Kmele to buy us all Yeezys.
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Kmele is a very rich man. He can hook us up easily, especially since at least 91% of the commentariat is just Tulpa.
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If you're asking me, how about an interview of Castle, and maybe looking at the livestream of the Free and Equal debate in Colorado?
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The commenters have provided plenty of Tough Questions for him!
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I've *mentioned* him before, though haven't written anything of substance. Do you have recommendations/requests?
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Heh, now do you see the squalor we have to live in down here with the squirrels?
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Damn, the squirrels don't even care if you're Welch.
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If you're asking me, how about an interview of Castle, and maybe looking at the livestream of the Free and Equal debate in Colorado?
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Best day ever.
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My request: please do not write anything about Darrell Castle. Thank you.
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When I was going up the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh, how I wish he'd go away! -
Who knew that Mormons are such hardcore libertarians.
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This isn't that surprising considering Tump lost badly in the primary there. Say what you will about Utah, it's nothing if not consistent.
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People who read up on their culture outside of the church?
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Fundamentalists generally are. It's the evangelicals that want to use the government to impose their will on the rest of us.
Mormons were driven out of New York and Missouri. In 1859, the federal government invaded and occupied Utah (especially Salt Lake City) like we invaded and occupied Iraq. They fought a war against Mormons, basically. The federal government only called a truce when they agreed that the governor wouldn't be a Mormon. Ultimately, that's why if you go around Southern Utah, you'll find "Dixie State University" in St. George. The Dixie National Forest. You'll find them selling Confederate flags in the gas stations, still.
Anyway, yeah, being historically persecuted for your religious beliefs makes people distrustful of the federal government, and if that weren't enough, there's all the end times stuff in the Bible. Mormons tell their members to have at least three months of food on hand at all times. Many of them store a year's worth of food.
Ain't nothing wrong with being distrustful of government.
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I disagree. Mormons were perhaps like that a century ago. Now they just want to be accepted by the mainstream. There's an old palaeocon strain of Mormon and you see it from time to time in Mike Lee perhaps but I'd say Hatch, Reid and Romney are pretty much Progressives.
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I don't think that's typical at all.
Reid is from Nevada, anyway, and Romney came to power in Massachusetts.
Hatch might be more typical, but, anyway, I'm not saying they're exactly libertarian.
I'm saying fundamentalists tend to be more doctrinaire in their suspicion of the federal government and its power.
Evangelicals are by definition less doctrinaire. It's about feels for them. They oppose gay marriage for the same reasons they sing and sway their arms in the air.
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I don't recall the last time evangelicals or any religious denomination tried to impose anything through government. It's a good fairy tale, though, and an excellent distraction while progressives very much are imposing their own values on others.
Watch out, there's an evangelical behind you that isn't checking his privilege!
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Progressives are small -e- evangelicals.
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yes they are.
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Well, other than trying to use the government to discriminate against people because they're gay, trying to use the government to stop women from aborting fetuses, trying to use government schools for prayer and to teach intelligent design in public schools, I can hardly think of anything evangelicals have done to try to impose their will on the rest of the American people.
Unless you want to include using the FCC to stop people from watching what they want on television, and using the government to stop researchers from doing stem cell research, and a myriad of other things.
I've even seen splits on vouchers between evangelicals and fundamentalists.
Evangelicals will usually say, "Government money for evangelical schools--that's great!".
The Fundamentalists often question, "If we take money from the government, does that mean they'll have a say in what we do?"
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"discriminate against people because they're gay"
Last I checked there was universal agreement about not allowing gay marriage until a few years ago. Do you think the President is a secret evangelical when he opposed it too?
"trying to use the government to stop women from aborting fetuses"
Doesn't the Libertarian Party not even take an issue on this? Do you think they're secret evangelicals too?
"trying to use government schools for prayer and to teach intelligent design in public schools"
Last I checked school prayers was left to local governments until the 1960's. Schools should totally be under local control, unless, of course, the local government is run by (gasp!) Christians!
Your last point on vouchers is beyond ridiculous. The only people I have ever seen oppose vouchers are progressives. But, keep living in your fantasy, you have a lot of cocktail invitations coming your way!
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"Last I checked there was universal agreement about not allowing gay marriage until a few years" ago.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.
Are you saying that because Democrats no longer agree with Evangelicals on that issue, that means Evangelicals don't want to use the government to discriminate against gay people?
No matter how you slice it, Evangelicals want to use the government to impose their values on other Americans. It is what it is.
What you're doing here just looks like a no true Scotsman fallacy trainwreck in slow motion.
Or maybe you're trying to say that we're all Scotsman?
"Doesn't the Libertarian Party not even take an issue on this? Do you think they're secret evangelicals too?"
There are legitimate divisions in the LP on this issue. Those who oppose abortion do so on libertarian grounds--that means they're aren't trying to impose their religious beliefs on other people.
Insofar as Evangelicals oppose abortion on that basis, they aren't trying to impose their religion on other people.
Very few Evangelicals are many any such distinction. They aren't supporting prayer in public schools for non-religiouis reasons either.
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"Your last point on vouchers is beyond ridiculous. The only people I have ever seen oppose vouchers are progressives."
I didn't say that fundamentalists necessarily oppose vouchers as a program.
I said they question whether they should accept them. I've seen them do it with my own eyes.
Fundamentalists are wary of letting the government have sway over them on principle.
Evangelicals typically don't have any problem with the government's power per se--they just don't want that power to be used against them.
They think using the government's power to impose their will on other people is a good thing. That's what many Evangelical voters mean when they call themselves evangelical voters.
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So, if someone support something for 'religious' reasons that is terrible? Should we police people's minds?
What laws are the religious imposing? I have yet to hear of one.
I understand that you don't like religious people and that probably explains why Johnson is not winning in Utah.
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"Last I checked there was universal agreement about not allowing gay marriage until a few years ago. Do you think the President is a secret evangelical when he opposed it too?"
The notion that the fight over gay rights was limited to gay marriage historically is revisionist nonsense. Check polls on whether or not people think homosexuality should be legal - even today, there's a large chunk of the population who thinks it shouldn't be, and the numbers were even worse 5, 10, 20, or 30 years ago. And that's the general population - what do you think the numbers look like for just evangelicals?
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Two years of food.
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Utahns? Utes? Utahnians? Utahnites? Which one are they?
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Utahneers
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According to the mass wild guessing that is wikipedia, the demonym for them is either Utahn or Utahan. Both of which sound very, very wrong.
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Romulans, actually. Their secret leader is 'Mittens', King of the Romulans. Duh!
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"Gosh darn real frickin' Americans."
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"Watch your language!"
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"Gos darn authentic frickin' Americans."
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Oh my heck!
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The young ones are called Ute Yoots
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Yutes
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Randy Vataha
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LOOSERS, for not supporting Trump hard enough
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That's actually kind of cool. I hope he wins, I guess.
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Trump will easily win Utah.
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I think you're wrong. Mormons are no different than most religious conservatives and identity is extremely important. If for example Orrin Hatch (or Mike Lee) were found to cheat on his wife, he might as well resign.
But of course Mormons don't control Utah, so I guess you're right. -
I think there is a strong chance of electoral vote shenanagans if it is not clear that someone got 270 electoral votes on election night. I would not be surprised if McMullin's backers have not already convinced some Republican electors to be "faithless" electors and cast their electoral votes for McMullin or possibly someone else! in states where it looks like Trump will win the popular vote. Unlike jurors in a trial there is no prohibition to talking to presidential electors about how they might vote and try to get them to change their vote. If no candidate gets the 270 electoral votes, those few votes McMullin (or someone else) gets will be powerful bargaining chips. I would not be surprised if the McMullin backers are trying to get at least 6 "faithless" electors just in case McMullin does not win Utah and Gary Johnson does pull it off and get NM's 5 electoral votes. That way McMullin backers can deny Gary the third place in terms of electoral votes which ensures Gary cannot be considered as a potential presidential pick if the presidential selection winds up going to the House of Reps.
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Excellent.
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I think HRC will pass 270 with some breathing room, so it likely won't matter.
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I suspect you're right.
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Should Evan McMullin really be distracting Utah voters from Gary Johnson?
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Gary "Stoned out of his Aleppo" Johnson in "No Alcohol, Tobacco, or Caffiene" land?
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The Utahns must be baffled not having a clear socon choice for the first time in what seems like living memory.
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Johnson was never going to win Utah. They didn't like Trump, because of his Muslim ban and they don't care for Johnson, because of his complete disregard for aspects of the 1st Amendment and America's tradition of religious accommodation. You tend to appreciate religious tolerance when your history is littered with literally being butchered throughout half of the country.
I don't understand why Johnson is focusing all his efforts in Utah (where he is in fourth place), rather than in New Mexico (where he is in second place). Other than the obvious fact that Johnson/Weld have decided to be junior partners to the Democrats. Winning New Mexico might actually throw the election to Congress, but I don't think Johnson actually wants to win anything.
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They also take issue with his love for smoking the pots, i believe
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Not to mention abortion. People here will point to Johnson's stance on accommodation laws because it's at odds with libertarian orthodoxy, and I'm not saying it's not hurting him at all there, but most people for whom that is a dealbreaker will also consider a pro-choice stance to be a dealbreaker. That's a life and death matter for most of them, and thus much more important.
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Where did you get that Johnson is in second in New Mexico? I also don't think he's focusing all his efforts on Utah.
Also, they were focusing on Utah before McMullin entered the race, largely because Trump is uniquely unpopular there for such a red state.
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You're right. He is 4% back from Trump in New Mexico. That's still a hell of a lot closer than he is in Utah
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One poll had him 4 back, but in others he's been further behind (and even in that poll he was about as far behind Clinton as he is behind Clinton and Trump in this poll). I think New Mexico is one of his top target states. I think Utah was tempting because Trump is a lot more unpopular there for a Republican than Clinton is in New Mexico for a Democrat, and Clinton has a low ceiling there because it's a very red state.
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I think that McMuffin guy is just running (or pretending to run) just to draw some Never-Trumpers away from GayJay
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As a utah mormon, i really cant stand McMullens supporters flaunting his religious ties as a reason to vote fir him, but right now all i care about is keeping utahs votes from going Red or Blue.
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Why doesn't this tool just endorse Hillary, like his fellow neocons? He might as well...
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How do you get a Mormon housewife into the shower?
Grease her hips, grease the shower doorframe, then throw in a Twinkie.
