River Plate v Boca Juniors - where has the magic gone?

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Great blog as per usual Tim. Although I'm somewhat disappointed it has been hidden away from the main BBC Sport page, not for the first time either. It's a shame because it is the best football blog on this website.

A PROPER BLOG...TAKE NOTE CHIEF WRITER!

Tim, thanks for another informative blog.

I take it Riquelme has fallen out big style with the coach? - he is too much of a legend to be wasted in what are his twilight years. Metronomic passing ability a la Barca's current crop. Vision, skill and poise all too missing from England's 'stars'. Can England produce such a talent, ideally in my lifetime??!!

Excellent article as always by Tim. In fact, the lack of quality of young players has been a big concern for everyone who loves Argentina football. Although Tim has mentioned that the national team has done very well in the last year (which to a certain extent, they have no doubt, as far as results are concerned), but the lack of creativity in the midfield, especially in the away WC qualifying games, has been too painful to watch. My question is: How long will Sabella continue to call up average players like Sosa and Brana? Will the likes of Gaitan and Pastore ever get a chance with Sabella at the helm? What has been the reaction in the Argentina press on this? And Tim, what do you think of Lamela who seems to be doing pretty well for Roma?

Boca fans I know in Argentina seem to take it as a given that Falcioni's contract won't be removed in December.

Rumours (as usual!) of a Bianchi return.

And Riquelme! (I don't think anyone's really established fully if there were serious diffrences with Falcioni, problems with some of the directors, or he retired simply becasue he was genuinely knackered?)

I watched the match on a live feed in England, and although these are from classic River & Boca teams, I still thought the Argentina players looked quite skilful - but maybe they're still allowed a lot of space compared to the Prem league, and the standard of defending and goalkeeping didn't look very high.

I was travelling in South America in 2004 and made a mad dash from La Paz to Buenos Aires to watch River v Boca at the Monumental. The atmosphere was incredible and the passion of the fans bordered on the insane as tickeless spectators rushed the turnstiles, risking a baton to the head, to get into the ground.

It was however, comfortably the WORST game of football I have ever seen. The standard from both teams was dire with only Carlos Tevez showing any talent whatsoever. River fans I was chatting with confirmed that both teams were so scared of losing the Superclasico that the matches often played out this way.

Tim,

Thanks for the blog. It offers a few questions that I have hoping you may be able to provide some answers.

1. You quote Maxi Rodriguez who says that the quality in the league has reduced. I guess there is a large element truth to this given how poorly Argentinian teams have performed in the Libertadores. Why is this the case? Given that there has been an increase in the standards of Chilean, Colombian etc leagues?

2. Argentina did have a golden period in youth development (which unfortunately was never translated into World Cup success). What has changed now? Surely if the system was effective what has been changed, or rather what has changed now that it is not effective?

An interesting blog Tim.

Hopefully the decline in quality in recent times will not last too long as it is important for football that Argentina have a strong team.

Another excellent Blog, Tim, it`s pretty much the only thing i read on this "football" website, Been a fan of yours for many years on World soccer.

A little question for you.
With the south American Clubs relying more and more on external financing, what predicament does this leave players in with regards to extending their contracts, for instance with Neymar`s contract due to expire in 2014 is there a any chance of him leaving on a bosman free or would the financial backers never let this happen?

I watched the game on a stream and it seemed to be a strange somewhat quiet atmosphere. (It makes me wonder what the Old Firm derby will be like when Rangers finally return to the SPL)
To be honest i thought the game was over after River's second goal but Boca did well to come back.

It was a disastrous week in the Sudamericana for Ecuadorian teams (to be fair Tim, you predicted as much). Most disappointing was Deportivo Quito's humbling in Argentina and Barcelona's elimination to Gremio.

Liga de Loja did well in their first international foray and were also eliminated despite not losing to giants, Sao Paulo.

http://footballintheclouds.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/another-double-disaster-for-ecuadorian-teams-in-the-sudamericana/

I'm not sure about the decision to have the 2016 Copa America in the United States.On the face of it, it looks like a attempt to grab more dollars and possibly outshine the Euro's in the same year.

Mexico and USA will get a by into the competition and will be joined by the next top 4 CONCACAF teams (i can't see Jamaica, Honduras or even Costa Rica doing much against the CONMEBOL teams).

http://footballintheclouds.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/copa-america-set-for-usa-in-2016/

I hate to give credit where it is due (generally) and sound like a brown nose but what an interesting blog. I live in Brazil and realy find your thoughts on South American football to be on the mark and it is obvious that you have a real passion for the game here.

Wish some of your colleagues commenting on English football had the same, rather than an obsession with anything but the game.

I watched the game live on Aljazeera sport..and i totally agree with you. The occasion, the passion of the fans was brilliant but the game was very poor on technical quality..The league position of of 6th and 9th tells you everything about both teams` current prediciment..bring back JRQ10!!!

The magic stills there, the problem are the businessmen and the corrupt managers who in every young player see a chance to make money and are already willing to sell them as soon as possible. James Rodriguez, Gaitan, Lamela, Ricky Alvarez, Ocampos, Falcao, Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano, A. Sanchez, Zabaleta, Tevez, Banega, Gago, Pastore, Lavezzi, etc, all products of argentine football in the last 10 years and im sure there will be more in the future.

Tim will be pleased to know there was another Superclásico at the weekend that was dominated by a good-old fashioned playmaker. A weakened Cerro Porteño side thrashed Olimpia 4-1 and the key player was Argentine Jonathan Fabbro - I'm sure a lot of Argie clubs would love a player of his calibre but he decided to live in Paraguay to get nationality (and recently scored against Argentina for the Paraguay national team) so it looks like we will be treated to him for a bit longer here.

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Thanks to premier sports for televising the superclassico for free in the UK - what an event!

Tim - that is very similar to how Cerro are playing under Fossati - back three with two holding midfielders and wing backs which allows Fabbro freedom in the final third. They have been incredibly fluid and attacking and were far too good for Colón so I think they can get the better of Tigre this week too.

Great blog Tim! I'm increasingly dissapointed with the argentinian league...

Now, regarding the issue of the number 10 in south american football, it is worth pointing out to the colombian case, as Tim was showing with the Nacional v Junior example. It seems to me that as the level of play is not as highed paced as the argentine league, this has allowed for the use of the number 10 to be an important part in most teams in the league. If you look at the traditional teams in the colombian league you will find that an important number of them still put a lot of the weight of their football on their shoulders, just a few examples:

Santa fé - Omar Perez
Millonarios - Mayer Candelo
Junior - Giovanni Hernandez
Nacional - Macnelly Torres
Cali - Alvaro Dominguez
Envigado - Neider Morantes
Equidad - Stalin Mota
Itagüi - Cleider Alzate

Just to name a few of the most obvious ones...in Colombia this position is extremely loved by the fans, perhaps a consequence of the hugely influencial Valderrama.

Spot on #13, there has been plenty of talent produced in Argentina, unfortunately it leaves too soon. I look with envy to the growing economic power of Brazilian clubs who often, but not always I know, can keep their players before selling them to European clubs. I wish Argentine clubs had the capability to do the same. Look at Dybala who went from the Argentine 2nd Division to Italy's Serie A several months ago. Ideally he should have moved to another Argentine club in the 1st Division to gain experience before trying his luck overseas, but the 3rd party owners of many of these players, many of whom are directors at the player's club, would rather cash in now for their own benefit rather than seeking what is best for the player's professional growth.

The power in Argentine futbol has switched from Boca & River to other clubs, look at the current league table where Newell's and Velez are the league leaders. Velez above all clubs have been consistent title challengers for many years now because they are well run, and keep some continuity. I believe their coach Ricardo Gareca is one of the longest serving coaches at his current club in the Argentine league. This stability produces results. My club Newell's are having great results this year because a club legend, former Paraguay coach Gerardo "Tata" Martino has returned home and along with him veterans who started off at Newell's like Maxi Rodriguez, Gabriel Heinze and Ignacio Scocco (scorer of 2 beautiful goals last Saturday BTW) all took massive pay cuts to return home from foreign clubs because of their love of the club.

And one day a guy in Barcelona who started in Newell's youth system will return to his beloved club to finish his career!

Tim, what are your thoughts on Leandro Paredes? Apparently 'The new Riquelme'? any resemblance in playing style? or is it just the usual hype? Is lanzini better?

Can't ask too much quality from South American teams when most of their best players are sold to Europe/Mexico/Middle East as soon as they start showing a bit of promise.

As for Brazilian club managing to keep their players, with the possible exception of Neymar, more than Brazilian financial might, it may simply be a case of Brazil not producing players good enough to tempt the big clubs of Europe as it used to be the case.

European clubs could easily outbid any Brazilian club financially so I wonder if Neymar's case is more due to European clubs being reluctant to jump in too soon for fear of signing another "Robinho"...(wasn't he called the New Pele at the beginning of his career?) a case of "once bitten, twice shy" I guess.

One thought I've had over the years, and not many seem to appreciate where I'm coming from, is that someone always has to lose.

So what if, instead of Argentina going backwards and not producing the same quality of player that they have over the generations, the other countries (and players alike) are improving to the extent (both in terms of skill and tactical nous) that the Argentinian youth teams just don't look as good as they used to? If this were the case then the youth teams would still be good, but wouldn't look as good.

If the tactical awareness is improved upon enough then by denying the Argentinians space to play (however this is achieved) actually makes them look worse than thy are because the players don't have the freedom to express themselves. This could all be part of the cycle.

Great blog, got to echo the sentiments of the first poster about it being hidden (half expecting Robby Savage will be doing the South American blogs soon...)

Tim why is Hernanes not being considered for the brazil national team as he is in terrific form and in my opinion is the better option than Kaka

@ Another Fickle Fan

The problem is that young players are being sold even before their professional debut. The U-20 teams every time looks more like the National team with the players coming from europe.

@ rosarino

The democratization of TV rights promoted by the government has helped the raise of the small clubs and weakened the big clubs. Look at the teams from your city Rosario Central and Newell's, years ago they used to feed Boca and River with the products of their brilliant youth system. Weak small clubs used to feed the big ones with their best players, the big clubs could replace the stars sold to Europe with them and maintain the quality in their line ups.
Now everything has leveled up, small clubs dont sell their best players to local clubs but to foreign ones.

Fickle Fan:

Technical quality should be judged across the board. While it is true that Europe has come a long way in improving their players' technique (I personally think that this is certainly true of the Dutch and the Spaniards, now joining and surpassing the long standing German and Italian traditions), I do support the idea that the quality in the Argentinian and Brazilian average player has gone down. Of course there are exceptions like Velez Sarsfield, but let's look for example at the way a defenceman controls a pass, feels the ball on his foot, how they deliver a pass, how they come out of the back playing, how they resolve with their faces to the goal line... how they resolve plays under pressure... this qualities have pretty much disappeared. There are also countless goalmouth headers that turn into missed goals because the technical ability to jump, and/or arch your neck and sling your head forward has for the most part deteriorated. For every Dybala or Lamela or Iturbe (above average players, no shining stars really) there are hundreds or plodders that confuse passion for quality. The fans (the real experts, formerly) have gotten accustomed to mediocrity and now cheer defensive hassle as paramount, because with the average-based demotion system every team is in jeopardy of some day going down, chronically, year in and year out... no one is safe and you have to leave blood, sweat and tears to be loyal to the colours.

Most teams play not to lose, gigantic kicking and wrestling contests, players mistreating ball and referees, there are continual interruptions of play and many players trying to influence referees , inciting their fans to violence... and to that add an obsequent press that would kill to get the one-on-one with the latest fad player... the press even give players gifts at the end of interviews and openly beg them for their used shorts or jerseys so that they can raffle them to their public to push TV ratings up. Hysteria and disorder is the rule, don't let the colourful spectacle in the stands fool you. The 'ball' is, unfortunately right now the last consideration for directors, coaches and players. Witness the 'pressure' barras exert on players during the week, showing up at practice to make 'aprietes' (squeezes, literally) to the players, who in many cases are owed months in salary and fear for their families.

Brazil is a different story, as violence has not permeated football as much and there is greater economic stability. However, I do think that the players look generic and have lost that very special identity that I grew up with since the 50's and 60's. But somehow I do not think they have yet surrendered to the ugliness that is today Argentina's first division football.

On a funny aside, Maxi Rodriguez' inlaws were broken into, kidnapped and sacked two weeks ago. Thepolice managed to capture the thieves: one of them is Boca Juniors centre-forward Lucas Viatri's brother, Sebastian who has, with his brother a long record of breakins and holdups...

@28

You've missed the point completely. What I was commenting on has nothing to do with players being sold abroad but merely the judgement that the Argentinian youth teams are not as good as previous years because they haven't progressed as far in tournaments. The teams themselves might be just as good as other generations, but because of the relative improvement and greater ability of U20 from other nations (not clubs) then they don't looks as good.

In other words they have gone backwards by standing still.

I'm not saying I'm right, it is just a theory.

@30

You seem to have gone on a rant about the first teams of Argentinian football, which I'm not saying is incorrect, but isn't really related to the point I made as I commented on the U20 national side of Argentina in comparison to other U20 national sides!! This isn't a reflection of the 'average' player but more likely the elite players for their age groups. My point, merely a theory whether right or wrong, is that the Argentinian sides may not have improved or worsened (at U20, U17 etc...youth levels) but the marked improvement in the nations they compete against has made them look worse.

@30

After re-reading your post, do you think Argentinian football is going more the way of good old English football then? (ie playing not to lose, lots of plodders good in the air, not on the ground).

At the moment however, with managers like Brendan Rogers, Di Matteo, AVB, Michael Laudrup etc...it seems English football is destined to follow in the Spanish footprint.

We've already seen the Brazilians of the 70's and 80's try to emulate the Dutch of that time, and are now trying to reverse this trend and also go the way of the Spanish.

Which way is Spain going to go?

#29 Nicolas makes an interesting point about the government supported TV rights (all first division games in Argentina are available for free on state owned TV channels) helping to democratize the sport. But I am not entirely sure this is the reason why provincial and smaller Buenos Aires clubs are now surpassing Boca and River (and the other traditionally big clubs in the country, Independiente, Racing & San Lorenzo.) because the lesser clubs were starting to do better even before the government financed TV deal came into place.

But Nicolas is right that Argentine clubs seem to rarely sell rising stars to bigger Argentine clubs anymore. At one time players like Diego Maradona, Gabriel Batistuta and Mario Kempes moved from smaller clubs to bigger Argentine clubs before going overseason, now players like Pablo Dybala, Javier Pastore and Angel Di Maria move directly from small Argentine clubs to Europe. Nicolas is correct this is a contributing factor as to why Boca and River are not as strong as they once were. There are other factors as well, notably the poor management of both clubs, but the cited factor also contributes, as in years past Dybala would be playing for Boca, River, Independiente, Racing or San Lorenzo now and not for Palermo.

Tim what happened to Fernando Cavenaghi? He was the natural heir to Saviola but seemed like the move to Spartak Moscow was detrimental to his club and national career. As 18 year olds, he tussled with Tevez for the best player in S.America one time and in my opinion was the more gifted player.. PS bring back Riquelme!

AFF: again, I am trying to look at the average, which does not count for superstars like Di Maria or Aguero or Mascherano, but rather the identity of football as a whole, looking at 'big', 'medium' and 'small/provincial' teams. The level of football being played is affected by the two-tournament format and the average-based demotion system, as well as economic and mismanagement factors.

The net effect is terribly harmful: for instance, coaches are under the firing gun at the 4th or 5th game mark of the fixture, as these tournaments are only 19 games long. The revolving door setup for 'saviour' coaches means that there is no connection between what the head coach does in the first division team and what the development coaches do in the eight divisions below them. I can think of one or two exceptions: Gareca in Velez Sarsfield, maybe Jose Romero in All Boys... these two teams carry on with a system. Arsenal FC's Gustavo Alfaro could be in this list as well, but these clubs have understood the value of continuity and they rarely sell a player too prematurely. Four of the big five clubs have been in trouble for years, especially River Plate (one year in second division and still not out of trouble average wise...), San Lorenzo (one goal from going down last June and again in trouble this season), Independiente (saviour coach has them going now, maybe they will get out of the bottom three), Racing Club (with new coach this season, they seem to be straightening the boat). The level of their play is dismal, but one has to ask... how can there be such a disconnect between the on-field product and what is being done with the juniors at these clubs?

@ Another Fickle Fan

I think that the one that missed the point is you, while i agree that the argentine U-20 is playing worse than they used to, i dont think that the problem is the quality of the youth teams. Other countries have improved their youth systems but so did Argentina, i'll go even further and afirm that the argentine youth system is a victim of it own success. Higuain, Di Maria, Aguero, Lamela, Pastore all sold to europe with 18 -19 years.
The Argentine U-20 team play the Qualifiers with one line-up and the World Cup with another, as the National Team the U-20 has a lot of europe based players (some players of the current U-20 team, Ocampos - AS Monaco, Dybala - Palermo, Icardi - Sampdoria, Iturbe - FC Porto, Innocenti - Milan AC).
So as i said i agree that as a team they are playing worse than before but in this context is not easy to build a team that can play actually like one. Pekerman did a great job with the youth teams but he didn't have this problem or maybe back there it wasn't as big as it is today.
The last poor results are another thing, nothing to do with playing nice or ugly, they are due to poor managers that couldn't solve this problem. Tocalli won the 2007 U-20 WC with really poor games and relying in the individualities.

@36

My question wasn't to do with the average, or the league. It's to do with the Argentine, national youth set ups.

@37

You make some fair points, but I'm trying to factor in the improvement of other nations. If others are better, it makes the Argentinians look worse than previously??

Also surely there is only so much you can teach and the rest is natural talent? If that natural ability isn't there, then it doesn't matter how good the coaching is does it?

Atletico Mineiro should take a chance on Riquelme and offer him the chance to play in Brazil & team up with Ronaldinho/Jo.
Maybe play a 4-3-2-1 with Riquelme & Ronaldinho feeding the balls for Jo to finish. It would be an amazing team and give the Argentinian legend a final swansong.

If Maxi is right & the Argentinian league is declining in standard, then why not move to Brazil and play in a country where the economy is growing and the football attracts some top names.

@Clacky1

Bianchi won't return to Boca so soon. The current administration's directors made his life impossible when he was amongst them. And that president Angelici is a Mauricio Macri's stooge certainly doesn't help his nomination either. The only hope for Boca - as for their "cousins" - is to get rid of shady agents and directors. But it's easier to expect Republican candidates to support abortion and taxes.

And Marcelão brought a sensitive point. The format of Argentinian league is appalling, there should be one championship a season instead of two. But Grondona (remember: Blatter's best henchman) and the Football For Everyone demagoguery seem to ignore it. They say European League format is unfair to smaller clubs. Typical Latin American, the mediocrity of many dragging the capability of few.

Tim;
I do not understand what you have against the British number 10 South American?, despite being a player who does not usually mark the 10th legitimate causes the team has played in the creation of light and has refined the technique so that most countries around the world besides using a sort of 10, with some modifications, as some Europeans fantasticos baggio Zidane and were similar to the 10 South American. The adaptations made ​​in Europe for European owners that I found most amazing was to Andres Iniesta marking forward with great quality and the frame is extremely sober and despite not using the number 10 he is the true 10 of barcelona. not wanting to be inconvenient but if england had a 10 average would have won the Cup in 2002 and 2006, in 2006 had the best cast in its history but had not a 10 legitim but not the only ones with this capability are Gerard and Lampard who are forced to succumb the 4-4-2 dialing a ridiculous selection where some would not be silly to use in a game where you have more chances of winning than the opponent.