Sorry seems to be the hardest word
Posted 2007-06-25 18:45 under Politics by Viktor Marković / 20 comments
In the case of president Tadic’s apology, though it wasn’t really like that – he said it only after a slight persuation by Aleksandar Stankovic, (real pushy bastard, I have to give him credit for that) that he must apologize to Croatian people on behalf of Serbian people.
Tadic formulated his apology wisely though: “I apologize to all those Croatian citizens that were hurt in any way by those who did it in the name of Serbia” – I’m not sure how to translate this correctly, maybe some native speaker could correct me in the comments, but in any way there weren’t any generalizations made, nor collective guilt mentioned.
Now the apology, although it maybe a bit late and a bit sudden at the same time, was perfectly normal and perfectly right thing to do. So why is it then interesting enough for bgd2.0 to write about it, when you know we only write about things that are more-less not-so-normal?
Because of the reactions.
And the reactions are surprising considering Tadic gave his best to sound as diplomatic and as accurate as possible uttering this sentence. It was sort of predictable that Stankovic was going to ask him to apologize and Tadic had enough time to prepare so that it sounds absolutely acceptable for both sides – Serbian and Croatian. But the interesting thing is that the only people throwing rocks at the apology are hard line nationalists from both sides.
Croatian ultra right sympathizers would not be satisfied with any sort of apology because this isn’t really of their concern – they consider anything coming from Serbia unacceptable and thrive on bad blood between the two states. Serbian far right is cursing Tadic for alegedly acknowledging that the Serbia as a state commited war crimes, which Tadic never said, and claim that crimes cannot be done in anyones name.
If this is true, than how come some things can be done in our name, sport successes for example, while other things, done under the same flag and coat of arms cannot? It appears that two things are being mixed here – direct responsibility for something and having someone do it in your name.
What is also interesting is that many claim that Croatia must return the apology in order for our apology to be valid, but the fact is, you shouldn’t apologize for the sole purpose of getting something in return – if you really mean for your apology to be sincere, that is.
Besides, Mesic already did that in his meeting with Marovic back in 2003.
Soft right (Kostunica’s party, to be more specific) are still without a comment but mention that all war crimes are the same for them – this probably means those committed by Bosnan, Croatian, Serbian forces, as well as those commited by Palestinians and Israelis, Pol Pot in Cambodia and Hitler during the WWII, among others. It is unlikely that we will hear more on this matter from these masters of saying nothing in so many words.
From everyone else the reactions to the act of apology itself are positive, as far as I can see.
Don’t be a koshtunica, share Your thoughts on this matter in the comments below.
bganon on 25/06/07 07:27 PM
Yeah I watched the interview. Sometimes I find that Stankovic runs a little on empty but it was ok. The important thing is that his show is popular in Croatia.
On the apology itself I have nothing much to add. It doesnt seem to step over the boundary of implicating everybody in a certain ethnic group (which I object to) and on the other hand is a pretty honest expression by Tadic – I mean by this that he believed what he said.
There was a part of the show where Stankovic tackled Tadic over the past statements of his father and his fathers flirtation with Serbian nationalism. No way deep enough to become interesting. Its a pity that Croatian viewers werent given the opportunity to see that it wasnt just Croatians that felt (regardless of the reality or of who was repressed more) harmed by Jugoslavia.
Perhaps one day a decent discussion will be held on the topic which could include moderate nationalists on the Croatian and Serbian side that will consist of a debate much deeper than ‘we suffered more than you’ etc.
Another thing that Tadic said is a similar sentiment I share (although I doubt that Tadic follows the situation in Croatia as close as he stated) – that he thinks it is a pity that many Croatians dont follow events in Serbia as he does in the reverse case.
Despite the reaction of some right-wingers in Croatia I suspect that many Croatian viewers found Tadic very likeable (and normal!) – even if some disagreed with his defence of his fathers views.
Yes I think this appearance modestly improved Serbo-Croatian relations.
Blackbird on 25/06/07 09:21 PM
In principle I don’t mind Serbia apologizing, but it’s pretty PATHETIC that it’s ONLY Serbia that always apologizes, and that if this is reported in the west it is presented as, of course Serbia is the only country that has any reason to apologize. What an enormous crock!
If you hold your breath until Croatia or any of the other former states of Yugoslavia apologizes, the you can expect to gasp for air very soon.
Furthermore, how far back do you want apologies from Serbia? Perhaps Serbia should apologize for sublimating Serbian interests during the Tito regime for the better good of Yugoslavia as a whole and for supporting Yugoslavia as country when Croats and Slovenes did not (foolish Serbs who believed their Croatian “leader”). Yes, how about it? Why shouldn’t Serbia apologize for that un-self-serving attitude toward brotherhood and unity? After all, look where it got Serbia — under the sole of the world’s shoe. Croatia, on the other hand, needn’t apologize for a damned thing — not Jasenovac, not the Krajina, not even for putting down and making contemptuous fun of Serbs that came to their coast during the existence of Yugoslavia and lined their coffers with tourist money. Croatia is permitted to simply sit back and expect apologies to Croatia for problems that Croatia initiated while continuing to do nothing about the very healthy Ustasha movement that’s still going strong and spewing anti-Serbianism willy nilly, brainwashing the latest Croatian generation.
If you want improved Croatian-Serbian relations, then you should agitate a bit more for an apology or two from Croatia to Serbia. It would go a long way toward healing the rift. Serbs are very forgiving and tolerant, too forgiving for their own good as they seem never to learn, even in the face of the last 2 or 3 decades. So, ask Croatia to apologize, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Mladen on 26/06/07 06:56 AM
Honestly, does anyone really care about these meaningless expressions of I don’t even know what. The phrase “well-learned politesse” from the lyrics of the Stones’ track ‘Sympathy for the Devil’ comes to mind.
Frankly, I’m a bit surprised that Tadic whose close family members on his mother’s side were slaughtered by Ustashe during WW2 would be the one issuing an apology to Croatia, but high politics are a strange beast.
You know what’s going to repair the Serbo-Croat relations much better than these meaningless made-for-TV apologies? Some 200-300 years of uniterrupted massacre-free, genocide-free, and ethnic cleansing-free relatively peaceful co-existance. And empty apologies, and anti-war profiteering aren’t at all necessary prerequisites for those hypothetical 200-300 years of war-free Serbo-Croat bliss.
So, according to my count, by year 2301 we should be fine.
PS: I really hope that Mesic doesn’t now get inspired to recipricate with a half-ass counter apology. Watching and listening to an apology from a guy who was high ranking associate of Tudjman’s basically all throughout the war (until 1994), and who as late as 1991 glorified pro-Nazi Croatian WW2 state would really make my stomach turn.
Viktor on 26/06/07 01:16 PM
Mesic apologised three years ago… as I already mentioned in the text.
Blackbird on 26/06/07 07:11 PM
Below is a link to a worthy discussion about this subject that is sure to go against the grain on this site, but that’s all to the good in my opinion. I think the comments are particularly noteworthy.
http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/06/boris-tadic-of-sorosia.html#comments
Ian Cresswell on 26/06/07 08:09 PM
Mmmmm, the Putin comparison raised in those comments. I don’t think it works on a number of levels. Putin has a far more shrewd understanding of the interests of his country and people than Kostunica or the Radicals/Socialists. I reckon he would have apologised the way that Tadic did. Given that Mesic apologised when he was in Belgrade a few years ago and Milan Martic was only recently convicted he didn’t have much of a diplomatic choice. That is, if you think that good relations with neighbours are important and valuable.
And I can’t help but notice that Tadic has the good grace to apologise when no one has apologised to anyone about Iraq in the UK and US. It was all someone elses fault.
Blackbird on 26/06/07 08:45 PM
The fact is that we shold all butt out of other countries’ affairs, including, of course, Iraq. The situation in the former Yugoslavia would not be what it is today had the west stayed out and had the seceding states followed the lawful standing procedures for secession. Instead, the situation was deliberately enflamed until became out of control.
Blackbird on 26/06/07 11:17 PM
Maybe Serbs should also apologize to the Croats for causing them so much grief by existing at all. How about it?
Letter from Alex about Good Croatians
I read an excerpt in a book once where a good Croatian who was imprisoned in Jasenovac because he was horrified with the Ustashi crimes asked an Ustashi guard “Don’t you know that you are going to burn in hell over what you are doing?” The guard replied: “Yes, but I am going to burn for Croatia!” Hey, western Pennsylvania is loaded with good Croatians who emigrated here before WW One, and had nothing to do with the Ustashi crimes. The problem is that about one in 10,000 will turn on their community’s self-perception by openly saying anything judgemental about the Ustashi or what they did. When it comes to Croatian crimes, mum’s the word, they are always the good guys — which of course just encourages more crimes because it does not dissaude the killers. Re the Croats that were Partisans (what a choice: fascists or communists), they all switched at the end of WW Two, when the end was in sight and the victory of the Allies clear and inevitable. Tito immediately promoted them to top ranks to create the illusion that his army was pan-Yugoslav, and they then used their positions to continue their anti-minority policy. The entire archives of the Ustashi and the Nazi gold was captured by Serb partisans at the end of the war (out of desperation the Serbs in Croatia mostly became partisans while the Serbs in Serbia mostly stayed in the royal army) — the next day it was gone. Ended up in the Vatican. Who gave that order? Tito? The Croats around him? Mosha Pijade, the only Jewish person who was a top leader in Tito’s partisans suggested that the Serbian parts of Croatia be given their own republic separate and free of Croatia to reward them for being the bulk of the fighters in the partisan army against the Nazis. Tito shut him up at the meeting and a week later Pijade was dead of a mysterious “heart attack”. My family in the old country remembers listening to Croatian emrigre radio broadcasts from the west telling the Ustashi to join the communists and get in to every position of power that they can, and then to wait for the day that they can achieve their goals again. Meanwhile, they did not do such a bad job of achieving these goals as they waited: they divided Serbia in three so that rump Serbia was smaller than Croatia (despite having three times the population); in the 1950s they reworked the borders to take away Vukovar from Serbia and to make sure that Croatia gets the Danube river; they took stratigically important Prevlaka from Montenegro; they banned Serb regugees of 1941-45 from returning to Kosovo; they pursued the policy that a weak Serbia means a strong Yugoslavia therby stifling Serb grievances; they kicked out half a million Italians from Dalmatia and made sure that both Slavonia and Dalmatia were swallowed up in Croatia, etc…., etc…. The Croats did the same thing after the First World War — switch sides at the very end to avoid reparations and punishment, but continue your goals. Re the Ustashi song and the River Drina: I once heard a song being played on a Croatian radio show in Chicago where they were LITERALLY saying “we will cross the Drina, plunge the Serbs with our knives, and make their bloody dead bodies float in the Drina.” I guess the FCC does not speak Croatian.Posted by Julia under Republican Riot
juliagorin.com (read it on the website to see it with punctuation)
Marin on 26/06/07 11:34 PM
The apologies issued by both Mesic, Marovic and now Tadic to me don’t seem that much important or sincere for that matter. It is nothing more than a pragmatic political statement. Concerning the reactions it received, from the comments I saw (a few people on TV, news, papers, talking with friends and colleagues) Tadic’s apology was regarded in Croatia as vague, blurry, insincere and with a “figa u džepu”. Majority of people in Croatia I think expect an apology where the terms agression and war will be used and where somebody will critically mention the specific involvement of Serbia and Serbian politics in the 1991-1995 war in Croatia, and not something “I am sorry for everything a Serbian ever did to any Croatian bla bla bla”. Also, what’s the purpose of apology if you’re not doing anything to support your words, to demonstrate action instead of just empty words?
I am not commenting to provoke some more nationalistic crap in comments here (there’s plenty of that) and start a debate about Serbo-Croatian guilt etc., this topic is about Serbia and Serbian apologies, if a topic about Croatia and possible Croatian apology will be made, I’ll be more than willing to share my opinion ;) Pozdrav iz Zgb.
Crnogorin on 27/06/07 12:53 AM
Y’know, one doesn’t expect Julia Gorin to know anything about history. But in fact, she doesn’t.
Blackbird on 27/06/07 03:01 AM
Is that so?
What you haven’t noticed is that these are not Julia’s words, nor is she claiming that they are. I like how these comments come back with “nationalist crap” but never is there an actual contradiction of any specific fact mentioned.
All my life I have seen for myself how some Croats pathologically detest Serbs — God only knows what makes them so psychotic — but although I have known and met many more Serbs than Croats I have never heard a Serb talk the same way about Croats. That’s not to claim that there aren’t any such Serbs, but on the whole I find it telling how much easier it is to run into a bigotted Croat, especially considering how many fewer of them I have run into at all — the percentage of those that hate must be incomparably higher.
If some Croats don’t like Serbs because they blame them for what Croats did to Serbs, then how sick is that? And you have to wonder just how much fascism is tolerated and tolerable in Croatia, even today, when 60,000 people go to hear “Thompson “ sing and revel in it, nay, the crowd advertises it proudly. The poor Croats who are not fascistic may cringe at all this, but they have a big struggle on their hands as apparently their point of view is not the one that remains de rigeur.
Dejan on 27/06/07 01:03 PM
It’s a nice and proper thing to do. However, at the very same interview, Tadić kept his stance on Kosovo – and Belgrade officials have no intention of admitting to atrocities and human rights violations that were committed there by both Serbs and the Serbian state. They behave like nothing happened…
So, when put into such a perspective, Tadić‘s apology is empty – “it is easy to be a general after the battle.” It’s now alright to apologize to Croats, and that’s what he did. No sooner, no later.
He still didn’t have the guts or will to say that gay marriages should be allowed – and he certainly still ignored the voice of 2 million “citizens of Serbia” in Kosovo.
He also needs to explain why his party formed a coalition with a man (Koštunica) who supported Greater Serbia project throughout the 1990s.
bganon on 27/06/07 07:07 PM
Marin I think you made an important point with this:
‘the specific involvement of Serbia and Serbian politics in the 1991-1995 war in Croatia’
My understanding is that Tadic made an apology in the name of Serbia, and not of Serbdom. Serbia is / was / can only be responsible for the actions of its own citizens. Tadic cannot for example apologise for the log revolution (leaving aside whether such an apologise would be right or not) because these were the actions of Croatian Serbs for example.
Of course one can argue that they were under the influence of the Serbian leadership at the time but for me at least its a step too far to apologise for that on many levels. Above all there is no point whatever in apologising for something that not only were you not responsible for, (and Tadic’s politics certainly suggest he prefers diplomacy to guns) but if the people involved would have done the same thing if it all happened again tomorrow, well then its completely pointless apologising in their name. On that particular issue itself I simply dont believe that those Croatian Serbs rebelled because Belgrade ordered them to, had the Croatian government at the time offered these men something (and it would not have taken much to bribe the leaders) the situation might have been very different. But thats another story.
No, I think the balance is right even if the idea behind apologies are a flawed generally. The point is that there are considerable amounts of people in Belgrade that regret / regretted what happened in Croatia and Bosnia in the 1990’s and Serbian involvement (again notwithstanding policies of HDZ at the time).
If these kinds of statements of regret / apology dont seem like enough, or are qualified within the then political context, then at least they are genuine.
That is why, despite a couple of tabloids (and SRS) trying to make something bad out of this, there is no Serbian outcry regarding what Tadic said.
Blackbird ‘All my life I have seen for myself how some Croats pathologically detest Serbs’.
Those people sadly do exist, but frankly they are lost cases. Suffice to say we have our own Obraz types too. What concerns me more is that more Croats are given the opportunity to see the side of Serbia which was hidden or mostly seemingly ignored in the last decade or so in the Croatian public sphere (with notable exceptions). In the end thinking people in Croatia will realise that they have more in common with thinking Serbs that with the right wing rabble. This is another step in that direction. You may not be happy with the fact that Croatian 1990’s policies with regard to Serbs are not under the microscope in the same way but in the end thats for Croatians themselves to look at.
We cant force the issue from this side.
Besides God knows with the amount of high profile war crimes cases undergoing procedure in Croatia with Serbs as victims, this issue cant be ignored.
Blackbird on 27/06/07 07:58 PM
bganon:
I think the reason I come back often to the theme of Croatian crimes against Serbs and Croatian hatred of Serbs is that I simply find it completely and utterly baffling. Serbs and Croats are effectively the very same people (100% the same) divided by religion, and nothing more. In other countries people have been able to live together as one nation while tolerating multiple religions among their populations. I can (almost) comprehend the overcompensation on the part of some Croats for crimes like Jasenovac and then Krajina, because deep down there is or must be some sense of guilt and shame that they cannot live with so they either deny, deny, deny, or put the blame on their victims, but what I don’t understand is why Jasenovac happened in the first place. Why in hell did so many Croats choose to side with the Nazis and why in hell did they think it was perfectly all right to try to commit genocide on the Serbs, the Roma and Jews? Where does this come from —- the Catholic Church, or what? I suspect it does since the Catholic Church was so involved in all that and because they took valuables from their victims to the Vatican to further enrich the Church. These questions are what concern me. Why? Why? Why? It simply does not compute for me. I can’t imagine ever feeling such animosity toward anyone — not even the Islamic extremists who are out to destroy everyone who is not like them and does not agree to convert. What is wrong with these people? How does anyone find a solution in mass murder followed by nurtured hatred? Like I said already, I find it baffling, and until I understand something it tends to bother me. And although I can only agree with you that pathological haters are “lost cases,” they nevertheless seem to be allowed to openly lead the Croatian public even now, so it’s not a negligible thing. When the hell will this stop? I don’t think it ever will, quite frankly — not until the whole of Croatia admits what it did and frankly acknowledges how wrong it was. So long as it continues to be swept under their country’s carpet, it will remain there. It’s time to see whether the Croats can look at Serbs, and others, as simply “other people” who happen not to be Croatian, and to appreciate the variety in the human race’s many cultures instead of assuming what their actions have implied — that a master race or a pure race is the ideal. And THAT doesn’t even make any friggin’ sense, because the Serbs and the Croats, for example, ARE one and the same race. Lost cases, you’re right…nut cases, I might add.
Dejan on 27/06/07 07:59 PM
Bganon – Belgrade played a much bigger role in it all than you might think. Back in the 1980s Serbia, through semi-official channels, already started training and aiding police and potential national awakening leaders in Croatia. This is all well “documented” if you inquire at the right place (journalists with balls and high ranking federal police inspectors can tell you endless stories).
I still think the apology is empty until Serbia faces its past. When every war profiter is in jail and his/her property is confiscated, Serbia isn’t doing its share to face the past.
Marin on 27/06/07 10:07 PM
“I still think the apology is empty until Serbia faces its past. When every war profiter is in jail and his/her property is confiscated, Serbia isn’t doing its share to face the past.” I agree with Dejan here. The involvment of Serbia in the war is much more blatant then you might think. Until it is openly addressed in some other potential apology, everything will be empty insincere words.
Blackbird on 30/06/07 10:14 PM
Politika
30. jun
http://www.politika.co.yu/detaljno.php?nid=32992&lang=2
U fokusu
ISPRIKE I IZVINjENjA
Sa isprikama i izvinjenjima je kao sa lustracijom. Od kojeg datuma započeti?
Svake godine 4. jula na Dan borca otac i ja išli smo u Jasenovac da položimo venac i cveće njegovom ocu i bratu, odnosno mom dedi i stricu.
Ubijeni su u logoru Jasenovac kao Slovenci antifašisti. Ubijeni su u specijalnom logoru 3C za političke zatvorenike. Logoru unutar logora
Jasenovac, gde su ljudi spavali na goloj zemlji, jer za njih nije bilo
baraka. I leti i zimi.
Sećam se da smo svakog tog 4. jula gazili travurinu i korov logora Jasenovac, obilazili gomile šuta i cigli srušenih Picilijevih peći,
odlazili do obale Save i gledali šta je ostalo od skele. Da je tu nekada bio logor kojeg su se čak užasavali i Nemci, jer je po načinu ubijanja bio najmonstruoznija fabrika smrti u istoriji čovečanstva, dakle na to je podsećala samo jedna obična tabla poput seoskog saobraćajnog znaka.
Na tabli je pisalo da ju je postavio mesni antifašistički odbor
Jasenovca u znak pomena na oko 700.000 ubijenih ljudi. Slikao sam se ispod table sedeći na gomili šuta. I danas imam tu fotografiju.
Godine su prolazile, ledinu jasenovačkog stratišta smrti sve više su
prekrivali korov i visoka trava. Jednog 4. jula moj je otac, tadašnji
potpukovnik JNA, otišao kod predsednika opštine Jasenovac da ga upita što ne srede to područje, zašto se sve to prepušta travi i zaboravu?
Predsednik opštine je bio zbunjen i odgovorio je u stilu „da drugovi iz Zagreba razmišljaju da na tom mestu podignu tvornicu, pa da se zbog toga teren još ne raščišćava”. Moj je otac bio ogorčen, napisao je vrlo oštro pismo Maršalatu sa porukom, koja, naravno, nije originalna „da narod koji ne poštuje svoju istoriju obično doživi da mu se ona ponovi”. Pismo je stiglo u Maršalat, ali je i moj otac penzionisan godinu dana posle. U 43. godini života. No, to i nije važno, možda se isplatilo. Jer, godinu dana kasnije Bogdan Bogdanović je dobio porudžbinu da napravi spomenik žrtvama Jasenovca.
Umesto tvornice koju su planirali drugovi u Zagrebu, sada je tamo kameni cvet.
Nikada nisam razmišljao o tome da li je trebalo neko da se ispriča, ili
izvini porodicama žrtava jasenovačke fabrike smrti. Bilo je to vreme
bratstva i jedinstva. Ko je uopšte i smeo da pokrene tu temu? O tome se ćutalo. Čak mi ni moja majka, sve do pre nekoliko godina, nije rekla da su ona i cela njena porodica bili tri meseca u ustaškom logoru Slavonska Požega da bi kao Srbi iz Bosne poslednjim transportom bili proterani u Srbiju. Niko im se nikada zbog toga nije izvinio.
Pa, ipak, imam veliko razumevanje za potez predsednika Srbije Borisa Tadića koji se u jednoj emisiji hrvatske televizije izvinio hrvatskom narodu za sve ono loše što su mu neki učinili u ime srpskog naroda.
Mislim da je tako nekako glasila predsednikova formulacija i mislim da je bila prilično dobro izgovorena. Sličnu formulaciju upotrebio je i predsednik Hrvatske Stipe Mesić prilikom svog dolaska u Beograd i sve te isprike i izvinjenja za mene nisu sporni. Štaviše to su gestovi koje treba pozdraviti.
Dakle, gledao sam taj televizijski nastup predsednika Tadića i utisci su da mu svakako nije bilo lako. Prvo, intervju je objavljen dan pre
nacionalnog praznika Hrvatske, Dana državnosti, što je veliki poklon
predsednika Tadića zvaničnom Zagrebu. Drugo, nisam siguran da su
savetnici za medije predsednika Srbije dobro pripremili svog šefa za
razgovor sa novinarom kakav je voditelj emisije „Nedeljom u dva”.
Predsednik je dozvolio da ga se doslovno „izrešeta” u njegovom kabinetu.
Pri tome je, naravno, bio kulturan, nasmešen i vrlo pozitivan, stalno
dokazujući, čak i porodičnim prilikama, da nije srpski nacionalista. A
to je upravo još više ljutilo voditelja, koji je insistirao na temi
„srpska agresija na Hrvatsku”. Tu se predsednik Tadić dobro snašao
rekavši da je tu bilo svega i svačega, od građanskog rata, pa nadalje..
Nekoliko godina ranije u istoj emisiji, istog voditelja na isto pitanje, tadašnji predsednik Crne Gore Milo Đukanović je odgovorio „da je
Hrvatska svesno ušla u rizik sukoba sa tada vojno jačim protivnikom”.
Naravno, predsednik Tadić je bio šarmantan u svojim sećanjima na Korčulu i Badiju, na Supeka i Korčulansku školu. To mi se svidelo, jer se toga sećam i ja. Ali, šta da radimo kada se toga ne sećaju i oni drugi?
Uglavnom, ono što je meni bilo malo čudno u svemu tome jeste ta
dugogodišnja fascinacija kosmopolitskog Beograda malograđanskim duhom Zagreba. Kao da još žive uspomene na šoping vozove za Trst, pečeno pile u vozu i trčanje po vodu dok voz stoji na kolodvoru u Zagrebu. Ta kulturološka inferiornost nekih u Beogradu u odnosu na Zagreb, koji je eto na Zapadu, kao da je potvrda one Krležine „sačuvaj me Bože hrvatske kulture i srpskog junaštva”.
A što se tiče isprika i izvinjenja, to vam je kao sa lustracijom. Od
kojeg datuma započeti?
Kralj Aleksandar ujedinitelj, to je rešio vojnički. Na paradi srpske
vojske u tek oslobođenom Beogradu nije dozvolio da konjica pređe preko jedne austrougarske vojne zastave neke hrvatske domobranske pukovnije, bačene na tlo pred pobednicima u Prvom svetskom ratu. Videvši šahovnicu, kralj je zaustavio paradu, podigao zastavu rekavši:
„Ne, to ne treba da se gazi, to su naša braća Hrvati”...
Miroslav Lazanski
[objavljeno: 30.06.2007.]
ida on 02/07/07 04:04 AM
“I think the reason I come back often to the theme of Croatian crimes against Serbs and Croatian hatred of Serbs is that I simply find it completely and utterly baffling. Serbs and Croats are effectively the very same people (100% the same) divided by religion, and nothing more.”
No, that is not true. Croats are closer to Slovenes and originally spoke that language, and now I quote a linguist on this:
____________________________________________
The indigenous Croatian language is a dialect called chakvaski. That is the language that is found on their earliest documents besides Latin ones. Chakavski (sometimes spelled cakavski because of lack of diacritical marks in English) is not fully developed (it is a dialect), and was never fully codified. Today, there are still some croatian writers who use it, but it is best suited for poetry, not prose.
In northern Croatia, areas that include Zagreb (capital) and west and northwest of it, Croats have spoken a dialect of Slovene called kajkavski (or kaikavski), which is bastardized Slovene. That language is actually more developed than chakavski and to this day there are Croatian writers who actually write prose in it. At one time, that was the only language spoken by the people in and around Zagreb. The educated elite spoke and wrote either in German or Latin. At the turn of the century, in the early 1800’s, only german books could be bought in Zagreb, and the Croatian Diet used only Latin.
A Croat by the name Ljudevi Gaj (pron. Lieudevit Guy) met with the Serbian language reformer Vuk Stefanovich Karadzhich in Vienna in 1850 and on his own agreed with Vuk to accept Serbian literary language of western pronunciation ijekavski or iyekavski (pron. iekavski), as opposed to the eastern or ekvaski (the difference is in the pronunciation of the now archaic sound yat — one version pronounces it as iye and the toher as eh).
In time, the written language became the spoken language, pretty much the way the Scots and the Irish and the Welsh of today speak English rather than Gaelic, although there are pockets of northern Scotland that still speak Gaelic.
The point is that those peoples who accepted English or Spanish as their written and spoken language do not call them by their national name, as the croats call their adopted Serbian language Croatian.
The name Serbo-Croatian is a politically correct ligature that began in the first Yugoslavia (1918-1941), when forceful “Yugoslavization” of all peoples was the norm, and politcal-ethnic concessions were the way. The first so-called Serbo-Croatian Dictionary came out in 1921. All official documents were printed in Cyrillic and Latin alophabets, and the first grammar of the so-called Serbo-Croatian “language” came out in 1938. The communists after 1945 only reinforced this by decreeing a Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian language in Novi Sad in the early 1950’s.
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Besides that, the character and personality of Croats and Serbs is different. Of course, there were Catholicized Serbs in Dalmatia and other areas and there were mixes such that some Croats have Serbian ancestry. But full-blooded and original Croats were more from the north and closer to Slovenes.
People have noted, for instance, that Croats don’t have much of a sense of humor and in general are a small-minded people. Serbs are generally of much different nature. This ‘Dejan’ appears to have an Italian or something last name. He doesn’t really seem Serb. Those like him should move out of Serbia as they are rotten types.
“ I can (almost) comprehend the overcompensation on the part of some Croats for crimes like Jasenovac and then Krajina, because deep down there is or must be some sense of guilt and shame that they cannot live with so they either deny, deny, deny, or put the blame on their victims, but what I don’t understand is why Jasenovac happened in the first place. Why in hell did so many Croats choose to side with the Nazis and why in hell did they think it was perfectly all right to try to commit genocide on the Serbs, the Roma and Jews? Where does this come from —- the Catholic Church, or what? I suspect it does since the Catholic Church was so involved in all that and because they took valuables from their victims to the Vatican to further enrich the Church. These questions are what concern me. Why? Why? Why? It simply does not compute for me.”You are too good of a person to have enough evil to comprehend such things (you are a lamb in a world of wolves). But Croats (their minds like to hate, resent, be crabby and complain about others so they took to the hate fairly easily)were puppets and resentment towards Serbs was built up over decades, even centuries (it goes back at least to the early 1800’s). The Serbs were too populous, had too much potential and controlled key land for the European powers which wanted to cut the Serbs down – Germans, Austrian, Brits, etc. Empress Maria Theresa and other Austrians helped boost up hatred of Serbs among the Croats and Muslims. They were there to pump the Muslims up when the Turks left.
The Croat diaspora and Croats within Yugoslavia were perpetrating terrorist acts against Yugoslavia and the Serbs in the decades after WWII until the war broke out. In the 1970’s they had the Croatian spring. They thought of Yugoslavia as a “prison of nations” and were bringing Ustashe offspring (if not the old Ustashe themselves) in the late 1980’s. The Ustashe and diaspora Croats highly supported Tudjman and a woman who was involved in terrorist acts in the 1970’s and 1980’s was a member of his cabinet. They did want to ethnically cleanse the Serbs and make Croatia a state for Croats only.
Even though Dalmatia and Slavonia weren’t part of Croatia before it joined Yugoslavia, they only joined to get major benefits like this for themselves and not have to pay war penalties. But as soon as they got what they wanted they started creating trouble and sought to maneuver out of Yugoslavia.
It was really ludicrous for Serbs to join in a nation with them. You had WWI, WWII, the last wars and all sorts of tension running back before and between the wars until today. The separation from Croats may be a silver lining of the whole fiasco.
Serbs and Croats should, as the Fleetwood Mac song says, “Go your own way.” The less Croats and Serbs have to do with each other the better. They can look for other friends if they are lonely. It is simply not worth all the dagger-in-the-back stabbing to associate with them.
Blackbird on 02/07/07 05:45 AM
ida,
Thank you. How enlightening, especially about the language history and geographical movements of these people. I knew some of this, but not nearly all of it. I would love to research this some more, so if you can recommend any reading or sources for me I would appreciate it if you would post them at my blog and, if you wish, leave me your email address.
Blackbird on 03/07/07 02:21 AM
Thanks, again, Ida. Of course, I won’t post your message on my blog. If you want to contact my email, it’s ajpullinger@gmail.com.