Maiduguri — Alhaji (Dr) Shettima Ali Monguno, a renowned educationist and politician, was a member of the Nigerian parliament in the First Republic. He was Federal Minister for Air Force and Internal Affairs (1965-66); Federal Commissioner for Trade and Industries (1967-71); Minister of Mines, Power, Petroleum and Energy (1972-75) and the president of OPEC (1972-73). In this interview, the 86-year-old elder statesman from Borno State speaks on insecurity in Nigeria, insisting that the Boko Haram insurgents are not faceless and that dialogue remains the best option. Excerpts.
Sir, for a very long time, you as an individual and as Chairman of Borno Elders and Leaders of Thought (BELT) Forum, have been insisting on dialogue with members of the Yusufiyya Movement, otherwise known as Boko Haram. Why do you think government should engage them in dialogue?
The word dialogue has several interpretations. Dialogue could mean bringing together two disagreeing factions to sit down and find how best they could work out and create a peaceful atmosphere between them. People have been talking about Boko Haram in so many circumstances: when a bomb explodes, when gun fight occurs and also when usual theft happens: when day light robbers rob banks, even when somebody does not know what this expression (Boko Haram) means.
I have been living in this state (Borno) even when it was a colonial province for over 80 years. I have been living in this Maiduguri, coming from our village for over 76 years. Of course, colonial government came, colonial government went. We as Nigerians fought for or perhaps I should give the credit to our founding fathers who tried their best to bring us together to a matrimony which has lasted over 50 years under the name Federal Republic of Nigeria. For this, we should first of all give our thanks to God and give our thanks to the wisdom and courage of our forefathers.
Our founding fathers were not only dogged, serving and worshipping God but also tried very hard to regard corruption as evil. Those leaders sacrificed their lives for us to live. And in terms of today's life of our country, it is unfortunate that we have not been able to succeed at replacing our founding fathers. I am saying this categorically without mincing words. They sacrificed money for merit; they worshipped their creator to the best of their abilities as opposed to some other leaders who will rather exploit the poor and die rich.
So, looking back, right from my elementary school, Bauchi Teacher Training College, Katsina High Teachers' College, College of Art and Science Zaria and the College of Education in Scotland, United Kingdom, I am perplexed. How could someone who was popularly elected and entrusted with responsibilities to work hard to improve the quality of life of those people who elected him or her, not doing so? This is what is really missing.
Who can tell us that the government of Nigeria today is just, is incorruptible and is peace-loving? I dare say these things because of my belief and my entitlement, constitutionally for expressing my personal opinion.
Now, isn't it sad, is it not shocking? It is unthinkable; I never believe that this country could be put into such a shocking and disgraceful situation as it is in currently. Nigerians have never experienced shock and disappointment greater than they are experiencing today. We should all troop out and pray for peace and tranquillity for us to understand each other no matter what our differences are which may be cultural, political, regional, religious, you name them.
We have so many differences but all the same, our elders moulded us into one indivisible nation now known all over the world as Federal Republic of Nigeria. Here we are today; we are bold both internally and externally. I used to go to the United Nations General Assembly together with late Alhaji Aminu Kano of blessed memory for at least ten years immediately our country joined that international organization.
Every year, we were sent to represent our country on various issues, on various committees of the United Nations General Assembly when Nigeria was fighting for the remaining colonies in Africa and today we are described as the largest population in Africa and sometimes we are also considered as the richest in terms of God-given liquid gold on top of which we have been sitting and exploiting.
Big country, united country, indivisible united country, becoming the envy of many, not only in Africa but some other countries as well. Oh! What happened? Yes, we were tutored by the British colonial power and we fought for independence. We wanted to be given the reins of government so that we could govern ourselves.
We promised to do even better than our colonial masters. We took over and for over 50 years, the marriage for that matter has survived. A young girl recently came to interview me and curiously, I asked her if she knew what people say at a marriage ceremony. And just as you laughed, she also laughed, ha! Yes! People say "those whom God joined together, let no man put asunder." Here we are (Nigerians), our marriage so far has survived and certainly, we are not going to allow any individual or group of individuals to put this marriage asunder. We will fight against it now. There are disappointments sometimes; I describe them as blessings in disguise.
Every disappointment may be a blessing in disguise. Even our recent disappointment on this simple thing called deregulation of petroleum product. I was in government as a minister of petroleum when subsidy was introduced. It was happily accepted and it brought relief to all. But all the same, the government of the day felt something should be done altthough reasons were not given... not to my knowledge, not to the knowledge of ordinary people in whose interest and for whose relief the subsidies were introduced.
Our people didn't know that our government was broke or that our government had been in heavy debt. I did not believe that the government came out and sensitize the people before introducing this thing. There should be no secret in governance. Come out openly, tell us, because of some reasons we are now in heavy debt, then people will understand but do not put the cart before the horse. That is what to my mind has happened, but all the same, it came to pass but what that situation left is something which this country has always been desirous: unity. It is my personal opinion.
Oh yes! It created a lot of problems all over the country but every disappointment may be a blessing in disguise, as I have said. The disguised blessing is that, that petroleum problem, withdrawal of subsidy problem brought together all the people of Nigeria. People forgot religious bigotry, political differences and all sorts of things. People came out and protested together and succeeded in bringing their government to the level of the understanding of the governed by the government. That subsidy withdrawal brought Nigerians together, united them.
I remember what happened some 50 or 60 years ago when the fear of the unknown in our country then was terrible. I remember how my daughter went to a college in Owerri; a Kanuri girl from Maiduguri went to school in what was then described as the Ibo land. People didn't believe such thing will be possible.
Our founding fathers created what they called national colleges of education with a view to bring together youths from different parts of this country so that they could mix together, live together, learn together and understand together, and respect eachother and the opinions of their fellow Nigerians. That was a big blessing. When the military took over administration and some of us who happened to be lucky enough to advise, we asked them to continue with that good thing.
But what happened?
Objections were raised. I remember clearly one of our universities objected and we insisted, still advising the military administration that they must not fail. The military put their feet together and said if any lecturer refused to mark the examination of students simply because of that issue, he must pack up and leave. I expect that this happens now.
Despite the fear of the unknown amongst us, we had brought together our children to live together, learn together, respect the opinion of each other, understand each other and grow up into national assets.
What we experienced then was a parliamentary system and the issue of presidential system came up... we wanted to be as powerful as the Americans who were practicing that type of democracy. Yes, giving an individual such powers that he could toy with the lives of the governed.
Democracy in the true sense, even communism, if carried to its logical conclusion could be democratic: Government by the people for the people. But there is a substitute or correction, I think I am not an English teacher but if only we could put that single adjective, the word ALL, it will be Government of all the People, for all the People and by all the People. But it seems what we are running now is demo-corruptocracy by certain interested individuals for enrichment. The word corruption now I think is understood even in the remote villages of our country.
You said dialogue is the best option all the time. Was that how other problems were solved before and why do you think it is workable in our present circumstance?
Before independence, our founding fathers were practicing different religions, living in different societies with all their differences. They had to go to London, the headquarters of the colonial power and sort their problems out. They dialogued, agreed, reconciled their differences and came back.
But the Federal Government is arguing that it is very dangerous to dialogue with terrorists because they see the Boko Haram as terrorists and they believe that even if they go into dialogue and in the end if the federal government can not meet the demands of the sect, it will be in a difficult situation.
Does the federal government know what their (Boko Haram) demands are? Now, even the use of the word terrorist... there are categories of terrorism. Have you ever had or have we ever been told that the south eastern militants were terrorists? Not to my knowledge. They were called militants. I would like to say it open and categorically that as of today, as I am talking to you, I do not know of anyone who is called Boko Haram. But like many others, I have been hearing either over the radio, television and the international media, we hear of certain individuals giving out names as Boko Haram.
The President of our country himself was reported or alleged to have said that he has in his government or in his security system, Boko Haram. This is what I have been hearing. Well, the dialogue will be easy provided the President will come out and name them. Just as it happened during the celebration of our Independence Day (2010) when the ceremony was bombed. If the President knows such people, dialoguing will be much easier. Of course, it is dialogue that brought us to this time and gave us the one indivisible territory called Nigeria. So we cannot throw away dialogue.
Our religions condemn wanton killings. When and whenever we hear something wrong happening, for any government, the courageous thing to do will be to investigate, to introspect themselves and find out as a government, what went wrong and how it went wrong. Our young governor here (Kashim Shettima), cried out, begging for dialogue. Recently, the Niger State governor (Babangida Aliyu) also cried out on top of that. The President of our Senate (David Mark) also cried out saying something like stakeholders please come out, let's talk. The government should take the bold step in dialoguing and say all stakeholders should come out and engage the sect members, ask them why they are doing what they are doing.
You as elders, don't you think you have a role to solve this problem? Secondly, to a greater extent, most people believe that you even know the Boko Haram members. As such, why don't you talk to them?
Let me take you back to a few minutes of our discussion. If you remember, I said as I am talking to you now, I do not know of any individual or what the government keeps referring to as Boko Haram. I live in the north east; I lived in Borno for over 76 years and how come I do not know these people called Boko Haram? Well, I said this in good faith, I do not know, but I have been hearing them over the radio. Names were mentioned over BBC, Radio France and other radio stations and people, individually coming out giving their names saying they do this and that and they did it because of that.
Now, religion has come into it; ethnicity has come into it; politics has come into it to the extent of frightening every individual in Nigeria today. But what is it that we cannot go to bed and sleep soundly and wake up without fear of gunshots; without fear of bomb blasts and without fear of bank robberies? Is this what they call civilization or progress? Let me take you back to some 77 years ago when I was forcefully, to the reluctant of members of my family, recruited into Monguno Elementary School, about 1935.
Now, my mother is dead but her colleagues, one or two women elders that are living recently came and even told me that they went to several neighbouring villages looking for Islamic and Qur'anic Malams to pray for my release from school, to pray for my expulsion from school, from that educational system called "Karakidibe" meaning method of learning about even your own religion and way of life in white man's language. Members of my family rejected my going to formal school out-rightly.
They were entitled to their opinion but just about five or six years ago, the NTA came and took me to the village where I was recruited into school and the inhabitants who are living there came out beating drums and danced in merry making. They were happy that their child that was forcefully recruited into the Kafir (infidel) way of schooling is now an important individual in our country.
Circumstances alter cases, some lawyers say. I am not a lawyer but a government of the day is popularly elected and vested with the right to formulate policies and implement them to the satisfaction of the governed. It has the mandate of bringing people together. A couple of weeks ago, the labour came out and dared the government of their country. All the people of this country came out... I say all because there were the Christians, Muslims, the non believers and there were innocent individuals who had the understanding of what was happening.
They all stood out and fought for their common interest. That is why I said earlier that the government put the cart before the horse (Fuel subsidy removal). Government should have come out and said, 'This is our financial situation at the moment. We cannot afford to be going on like this. This is what we have done with what we have been receiving but we are broke now and you must sacrifice.'
Still talking on ialogue with the Boko Haram, the issue was initially seen as a problem of Borno; then it transcended into the problem of the north east and now to Kano in the North West and Abuja and there are allegations that the Kanuris are the problem of the north. Do you agree?
I also heard what you said. They said they heard some people speaking Kanuri there (during the attack in Kano). That they heard people from Chad... I don't know what language Chadians speak. But I severally say that these problems... don't we have a national council of previous presidents, Chief justices and previous governors? Can anyone tell me if that council was summoned to look at the situation which arose as a result of withdrawal of the subsidy or any other topical issue? I have not heard anyone telling me that the council of state intervened. I didn't.
Until after the incident that former Head of State, General Gowon and former President, Alhaji Shehu Shagari, came out and congratulated the president for being a listening president. Congratulations! Oh yes. Even Kano people... I listened to some of them expressing appreciation for the president's visit to Kano after the problem (recent attack.) Yes they appreciated the president but at the same time, did Kano people forget that people had been hearing Boko Haram long before the Kano incident?
People have been hearing about our situation in Borno but nobody seems to have mentioned it! Now, where are our elders? The problem always is when something like this happens and elders keep mute, the country is in trouble and this is what I think a BBC reporter said last night.
He said Nigeria is in big trouble. It is not good blaming each other. What has gone is gone, hopefully gone forever but those of us who are living, we have to think again. Is it the dialogue that our founding fathers did and succeeded or do we have a better way of bringing our people together to understand, to respect, to accept one another? We are listeners to our listening President. When is the day for us to meet and dialogue? May God guide us.
Some stakeholders are saying the Boko Haram problem is specifically with the people of Borno because that is where the problem started, and that residents are not ready to volunteer information on how to solve the impasse. What do you think?
Let me first debunk this statement. Any responsible government has ears, visible and invisible ears and it has eyes which is sometimes called SSS. These are people employed by the government who sometimes openly brag that they are SSS operatives.
Now let me call a spade a spade. Government of our federation cannot deny that they are told of such a group. Some of the members are as I am talking to you detained indefinitely in different places.
And there are people who have been coming out and telling us that they did this or they did that. They have told the government, release these people (their members) or we will release them. I don't know what exactly happened... they mentioned Kano and quite a lot of people understand that Kano was given a written notice. Whether it is true or not I don't know but we heard it.
Some people are calling for a sovereign pact with the United States and Israel to find solution to the current security challenges. Are you in support of that proposal?
Let me take you back to something. How old were you when the British government wanted us or when our government wanted the British government? Trusting my poor memory, I think it is called defence pact.
The plan was for British troops to be stationed in Kano for rapid use to quench any problem in our country, Nigeria. We rejected it (plan) in its totality. Defence pact? No. I say no to American-Nigeria defence pact.
If our soldiers after 50 years or more than 50 years of training in India, England and some other countries, if what we have today cannot cope (with our challenges), let them work on their weaknesses, after all politicians have their weaknesses. I am saying no to any external defence pact with America as we rejected the British.
Recently, people from the Middle Belt held a meeting in Abuja and said they would solicit security support from some foreign countries so that they can defend themselves in the wake of ensuing crises. Are you comfortable with their move?
Let me first of all tell you that if such thing existed or had happened, I am not competent (to speak about it)... I am not a constitutional lawyer but our constitution is there. Is it constitutional for such people to make such attempt? I think sometimes in the west, it is an idea muted for part of the west.
I think one of the western state governor was of the opinion about some type of government; confederation. It was muted but it has disappeared. It did not take off. He asked me if I could tell General Gowon to convey the invitation letter in French and we did that. I don't know if it is a muting of idea that they (Middle Belt) want to be outside of Nigeria.
That is why I said it earlier on that I am not a constitutional person, so that issue should go to the Federal Government because the first paragraph of our constitution says 'we are indivisible, that is the word. If somebody wants to divide us, it is left for the federal government.
Do you support the call for a national conference to decide the future of Nigeria because some people see Boko Haram as a threat to Nigeria's unity?
What is the meaning of national conference? There is a national body already. It is stated in our constitution that Nigeria will remain an indivisible country.
Does it mean you don't see Boko Haram as a threat to national unity?
What does Boko Haram mean, really? I know the president was reported to have said as I said earlier that he now has Boko Haramist in his own government. The president, I am sure, will like to mention those people.
The Borno State government gave N100 million compensation to the family of Ba Fugu Mohammed, the father in-law of Mohammed Yusuf, the late leader of Boko Haram and so many people are now alleging that by giving that compensation, the governor is supporting terrorism. Do you agree with this claim?
The governor (Shettima) campaigned for governorship and by the Grace of God and the will of the people, he succeeded like many other governors. And this issue of N100 million, I thought it was a court decision.
Well, who is supposed to delve into the affairs of the court? Has anybody come out to tell the court dealing with that issue that the court should stop? No. We thank God that we have them (courts); they are one of the tiers of the government and they are to my mind provided with independence. They are the tier under which the ordinary person would wish to sit. So, the court says pay N100 million and the governor did; finish, unless somebody wants to take the court to higher court or something else. It is a court decision and no one should challenge it.
Can Nigeria come out of its present predicament? Do you think it can come out from its present security, social and economic challenges and still remain one country?
Let me tell you what I heard some people from Kano tell reporters. I mentioned earlier that even those affected by these terrible things in Kano expressed some appreciation for the president's visit to Kano to condole them.
I also listened to many people over the BBC and other media who without exception, cried out against injustice, non-integral leadership and corruption. There was a time when we were rated by a German organization as the most corrupt country in the world but we gradually changed positions. Bangladesh took over the position away from us. Only God can tell the future but through the instrumentality of the integrity of leadership.
Why do I keep referring to our elders who sacrificed money for merit and who worshipped their creator to the best of their abilities and served people also to the best of their abilities? They could have been multi-billionaires; could have left billions for their offspring, but they did not. I don't know of any son or daughter of the lates prime minister of our country, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa of blessed memory, who is a multi millionaire today. No, not to my knowledge. Today, we have young people and we have leaders who would rather exploit the poor.
Sometime last year, the Borno Elders Forum of which you are the chairman, met with Mr President. What are those things that you discussed with him in respect of the ongoing crisis?
Let me categorically tell you that I never met with the president. I never went to Abuja. Perhaps, you are referring to the representatives of the elders who went to Abuja to see the president and from whom the president appointed a committee of seven people. Representatives of the elders and some northern elders also agreed and a committee of seven people was appointed to look into the security situation in the North East.
The committee went all over the North East and submitted the interim report. Then later, their final report. I cannot go further on this issue. What is in the report, I do not think (the government) has come out with something like a statement whether or not they agreed to the recommendations of the report, not to my knowledge.
Certainly, the government has been silent over the report submitted just as they have been silent on the quest for dialogue. Someone will have to take the first step in the best interest of not only the so-called Boko Haram but also in the interest of the generality of the people of this country. Long before Boko Haram, we had the Civil War, it was not Boko Haram, they were not even heard of then and we came out of it.
We agreed, settled our quarrel and came back into this wonderful marriage and we have been living together since.
One of the conditions given by the Boko Haram is that they want application of Sharia legal system. Do you think this demand can be met?
The simple answer I can give you is that we were terribly divided some 56 years ago. We are divided along many lines, including religion, culture, and ethnicity.
Very disappointedly, I heard it over the radio that a minister was being interviewed and the man asking the question said why not sensitize the people, tell the people what is happening on the issue of deregulation; let them understand it first, and the minister's answer was something like how can we go street by street telling people?
A day or two later, the same man asked another minister about the withdrawal of subsidy and the palliative measures the government was promising. The minister, to my mind, was even totally ignorant of what was happening from his answer.
He answered by saying that the palliative measures were a secret. I remember when the president came out and publicly narrated, enumerated and said the number of palliatives that he and his government were offering to allay the anger and disapproval of people on the removal of fuel subsidy. He mentioned amongst other things, 1600 buses. They spoke of a railway line from Maiduguri to Port Harcourt.
But that minister was saying it was a secret, that he was not going to mention any intended palliatives of the government. He was saying this after the president had mentioned the palliatives himself. Such is the type of government that we have.
This is a reproduction of the last major interview which was granted us by the late elder statesman, Alh. (Dr.) Shettima Ali Monguno, who died on Friday in Maiduguri.
It was conducted a year before Boko Haram insurgents kidnapped him on Friday, May 3, 2013 at a Juma'at mosque in Maiduguri. After his release, Monguno never spoke on national issues again as a result of his frail health.
