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PSNI and Gardaí co-operating on murder investigation

on 21 October 2007 , 7:28 pm 78 | 4 views

In response to the attempted headline-grabbing proposal from Ian Paisley Jnr, on filling in the gaps left by not fully implementing Schengen, the Republic of Ireland’s Justice Minister Brian Lenihan stated that those gaps were “not a barrier to effective cooperation between the PSNI and the gardai.” That co-operation will be tested in the murder investigation currently underway after a 21-year-old man was reportedly lured across the border from Cullyhanna in south Armagh to a farm at Oram in County Monaghan where a gang of up to 15 men beat him to death with iron bars in an outhouse. RTÉ reports that the murder investigation is also looking at fuel-laundering, and the BBC reports that the victim’s family are blaming members of the Provisional IRA. The UTV report ends on this note

Gardaí in Monaghan have said that they are keeping an open mind regarding paramilitary involvement.

Adds The NI Regional Development minister, Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy, is quoted in this report – “I do not believe that there is any republican involvement in this murder.”From the BBC report

The Cullyhanna man’s family say he was recently involved in a dispute with individual members of the IRA.

A short time later he was told to leave the country.

“Our son courageously and correctly refused to leave,” read a statement from the Quinn family.

“We believe that he was abducted by the Provisional movement and brutally beaten to death.”

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  • kidso

    I dont think they have gone away you know. My thoughts are with the family of the deceased. I hope the IRA had nothing to do with this. If some members were involved. Dismiss them, court marshal them I dont care. Hand them over to the Gardaí. The question must be asked of the Sinn Fein leadership…. Is it time they did go away?

  • What armed conflict ?

    The IRA has not, and will not go away, it never has and never will, I expect the First and Deputy First Minister will release a joint statement about the common criminals involved in this brutal murder, will anyone have the balls to acknowledge the truth about the IRA’s involvement, I don’t think so, it will only upset the money and power cart at Stormont.

  • snakebrain

    Leopards…spots…

  • ahg

    I love the way SF come out immediately and state that republicans can;t possibly be involved! Reminds me of Maskey and the McCartney murder…

    Condolences to the family. Let’s hope justice is done.

  • GavBelfast

    What is the definition of a ‘republican’ anyway?

    It obviously seems to depend on the context.

    It’s grim news, it sounds like it was a horrible death.

  • What armed conflict ?

    If you look back at the “bad old days ” the IRA would take suspected informers from the south, just into the north of Ireland and kill them, as not to bring pressure from the Irish Government, now that Sinn Fein are in Government in Britain they take their victims just south of the border, so it can’t cause their partners in Government any problem. Remember, it happened in another country !

  • harry

    is this what gerry adams meant about teaching people “manners”.

    the “boys” are now acting as enforcers in the south armagh community to ensure no upsets their hegamony.

  • hercules

    Surely there can’t be that many 15 man gangs operating with impunity in the area.

    My condolences to the family.

  • K man

    What do they expect Conor Murphy to say? Surely not something like “This young man was murdered by organized criminals with inseparable links to the IRA”. That would be ridiculous!

    Or how about, “This wasn’t the IRA, it was one of the many other non republican fuel laundering gangs in south Armagh…”.

    Standard white-wash crap from Sinn Fein, much to be expected.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Could those above let us in on the information they have that the media and garda don’t. Cheers.

  • Dec

    I note that most of the experts above were curiously absent from the Thomas evlin murder thread.

    I love the way SF come out immediately and state that republicans can;t possibly be involved!

    Just as we all love the way ‘contributors’, that no-one’s ever heard of, emerge from under their respective bridges as soon as a thread mentions the IRA.

  • Ahem

    I know Dec, I know – what is about the poor old IRA that has gotten them such a bad name? Oh wait.

  • CTN

    Lets keep it cool until the facts emerge.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Conor’s words are “I do not believe that there is any republican involvement in this murder” – he may have chosen his words carefully and decided not to say “I do not believe that there is anyone connected to the republican movement involved in this murder”

  • joeCanuck

    I agree Frank. Some people above seem to have information that should be handed over to the authorities immediately.

    My condolences to the family too and I hope they get justice.

  • tweedledee

    Any news on the other two men reported to have been seriously injured?

  • bought for free at last

    This enemy of the peace process was clearly killed by securocrats, themselves enemies of the peace process.

    Joking aside, how the HELL could Murphy say with confidence at this early stage that republicans weren’t involved?!

    This is another potential Robert McCartney moment.
    The response of the DUP will be fascinating. When UUP formed a government with SF, the DUP treated any minor incident with any possible PIRA involvement as an excuse to call for collapse of the executive.

  • kidso

    I suppose Conor Murphy had a word with the IRA and they told him that they were not involved. Id believe the IRA leadership before Id beleive the Gardaí or PSNI or media. But somehow I sense (and this is without any evidence at all) that it was carried out by IRA members or associates. If so they gotta be turfed out of the organisation. as far as those arrested in connection with Young Devlin’s murder..well I think the PSNI are clutching at straws and all will be released in this propaganda excercise.

  • Outsider

    Ritchie stood up to the UDA, who in Stormont is going to stand up to the IRA?

  • Dewi

    Terrible event and condolences to the family. From Cullyhanna – that’s horribly significant also. Please God nip this in the bud now.
    I must admit I find the whole Ritchie / UDA thing terribly depressing also. Pretty bad week all round. And Potts lecturing the GAA on reaching out. Just a combination of brutality /surrealism and bare faced hypocrisy. Again terrible week.

  • ha ha

    ‘Had a word with the IRA’. Love it.
    And maintaining the fiction that he has to have a word with an organisation he definitely isn’t in, what if the IRA is lying to him?

    Or do you really think that if they actually put their hands up and said ‘aye Conor, our lads did this, not ordered, like, but there you go, the boys will be boys’ he’d have put out a statement saying that?

  • veritas

    is it not near time he had a word with the ira& told them to feck off and give people peace.would you buy a used car from conor murphy?

  • no more lies

    Claiming that this was done ‘without sanction’ so therefore ‘not by the IRA’ is as pathetic as claiming the killing of Peter McBride wasn’t carried out by the British army because the GOC at the time – or their commanding officer – didn’t directly order it.
    If IRA members did it, the IRA did it.

  • kidso

    i guess what you’re asking -Veritas- is if Id trust Conor murphy? He’s a politician so the answer is NO. Is he a member of the IRA -Ha Ha-? I dont know. What I would question is if the IRA are militarilly inactive and the war is effectively over then why do they need to continue to exist. There was a time they did not exist -What armed conflict?- then the people needed them. Now they are not needed in the form that they are so the really have to go away…
    I hope the truth of this sordid killing comes ut quick before people make up thire minds on hearsay alone.

  • Turgon

    So here we have what our “peace process” has brought us. Yes a reduction in violence but a society where a murder has occurred of a young man; according to his family, ordered by an illegal organisation to leave Northern Ireland and then murdered because he did not do so. Two other men violently assaulted. And despite this we will undoubtedly have a situation whereby the criminals will have little chance of being brought to justice and an organisation inextricably linked with them in government. I await with interest to see if the DUP will pull out of government over this. I doubt they will since the DUP deputy leader is more worried about Margaret Ritchie than he is about stopping money to drug dealing pimps and terrorists. Whilst at the same time it seems impossible that another set of the alphabet soup of loyalist criminals will be held to account for murdering a boy because he was a catholic.

    But it is of course most important that we do not upset the apple cart because then we might slip back into violence? Slip back? It does not seem that much “slipping” is needed.

    This peace process is a truly Faustian pact.

    Dewi, do you wonder that I told you that violence will start again soon. It looks as if 10-20 years was way too optimistic.

  • Frank Sinistra

    All these new user names with so many definitive pronouncements. At least the search for facts on Slugger over the Ritchie debate was explored by users of the site that had actually contributed before, though some of the Ritchie supporters had been long-term absentee SDLP voices. Lots of heat, little light and limited credibility going on.

    Hating or disliking SF and/or the IRA is no excuse for contributional laziness that wouldn’t pass muster on any other topic.

    IMNSHO.

  • dewi

    Maybe Turgon – Cullyhanna especially worrying because this bunch critical to maintaining republican peace.Just what are the politicos doing though? No surrender on ILA – bullying a minister who is trying to do something useful. Pretty pathetic all round (and a contributory effect to violence IMHO)

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Turgon,

    I think you are being unduly pessimistic. If people close to or belonging to the Republican cause are involved, now that the police in South Armagh are offically welcomed by the Provos, there will be cooperation. Anything less than that from SF will spell serious damage for them at the polls and they will not take that chance. That is the beauty of the current arrangments – they now have something to lose.

  • joeCanuck

    Don’t overlook the bravery of the perpetrators.
    It only took 6 or 7 of them with their crowbars to unmercifully beat this man to death.

  • Turgon

    Dewi,
    I think the fundamental basis of this whole process has been stopping of violence which was destabilising to the state as a whole. The bombs in London etc. were an example. Equally the murder of Protestants by Catholics and vice vera which had the potential to upset the whole apple cart.

    The murder of Protestants by Protestants or of Catholics by Catholics (or for that matter it would seem the murder of random Catholic children by Protestants) is seen as less of a problem. I do have no doubt that the Northern Irish politicians as well as the London and Dublin ones would be much happier if there were no murders. They are all, however, unwilling to see their process fail. As such they appease, turn a blind eye or otherwise excuse in some weasel way these events.

    This is the fundamental flaw in all this process; it is a house built upon the sand. We have suspended the norms of a democratic society to stop violence but we have not genuinely stopped the violence and we have created a society where violence very frequently gets rewarded. The justification is always that things will get better and that this is better than it was. A process so founded on lies will, however, never be stable and will in my opinion leave a truly poisoned legacy to our children’s generation.

  • kidso

    I take it -joeCanuck- you were there? What does “contributional laziness” really mean -Frank Sinistra-? I get it… there’s something you dont agree with so you ridicule the messenger.

  • dewi

    “Suspended the norms of a democratic society”
    You never had a democratic society. Which is why a total focus on eliminating violence is so important. Just finished Green Flag – 1885 election 17 nationalist to 16 unionist mps in Ulster. Never knew that – astonishing.

  • dewi

    Nine counties of course

  • Turgon

    Maybe not Dewi and I think you know my views well enough to believe me when I say that I have never pretended that everything in the garden was ever rosy.

    However, we have now created a process which will never eliminate violence and indeed shows that violence or the threat violence can be extremely profitable. This is a most Faustian pact. I think it very likely that the process will carry on. The deck chairs will be rearranged a bit if necessary. The water continues to flood in, however, and the band will soon start Near my God to Thee.

  • Turgon

    “Nearer my God to Thee” obviously.

  • harry

    during the troubles or war (whatever) people in s armagh could do whatever they wanted. often this lawless atitiude was encouraged by the provos.

    now, of course, the provos want the people to subscribe to the northern state, after telling us for years that it was illegitmate.

    those boys who are still at illegal commerical enterprises, like diesel etc are embarrasing the Provos. so we have the strong arm activities we seen today.

    then they canvas the door telling us that they will teach the cops lessons. what a load of crap. the cops have not changed, but sf have become as bad as RUC ever were.

    this wee lad was only 21. 21. will it make any difference to those besuited bastards in stormont? not one bit. If fuel smuggling was behind it (as the media has sugested) i dare say it didnt involve as much money as our politicians award themselves from the tax-payers

  • eire nua

    The Provos killing someone in the Free State at this point?! insane. Bertie is going to crucify them over this. He destroyed them in the south in the election, now when FF are organising in the north, this is a god-send. For both FF and the SDLP.

  • Interesting to see Conor Murphy making such a definitive statement, so quickly, given the idea that Sinn Fein and the IRA are separate. Had he made a ring a round of south Armagh’s provisional tendency? Maybe an inspired guess? Maybe just one more lying republican reptile? Perhaps the Chuckle Bros can visit the next of kin – that would be a nice cross community touch?

  • Outsider

    All these new user names with so many definitive pronouncements. At least the search for facts on Slugger over the Ritchie debate was explored by users of the site that had actually contributed before, though some of the Ritchie supporters had been long-term absentee SDLP voices. Lots of heat, little light and limited credibility going on.

    Hating or disliking SF and/or the IRA is no excuse for contributional laziness that wouldn’t pass muster on any other topic.

    IMNSHO.

    Frank Sinistra

    Noble words I’m sure but have moderators exposed you as a multiple poster in the past. I believe you were using various user accounts to substantiate some of your claims, maybe you should step down of your high horse.

  • kidso

    thank you -outsider- And -david vance- please refer to previous postings.

  • Dewi

    In Glasgow tonight and bought tommorow’s papers – nothing on this at all – astonishing. Turgon – it’s up to the politicians to do useful stuff – isn’t there something useful they could do like cross community ?

  • KIDSO,

    No, you refer to the content of my comment please.

  • Outsider

    [Play the ball, not the man – edited moderator]

  • kidso

    David Vance your comment was an insinuation that Conor
    Murphy is IRA. earlier I suggested he had asked the IRA people he knows about the terrible murder before he made his comments. And you expose your hatred of Republicans by calling them repiles. Again I hope beyond hope that people learn to wait for the truth before making up their minds about this.

  • joeCanuck

    Were you there Kidso?

  • kidso

    No -joecanuck- thats why i said what i said and did not assume i knew who did the killing or in deed what the weapons were as you did. And thats why i suggest we wait and see.

  • joeCanuck

    I simply repeated what has been published in the public domain, kidso.
    See my comment #15 on page 1.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Outsider,

    Indeed, my good friend* Michael has taken me to task before over using more than one name (mostly comic asides).

    That excuses this stoop nonsense how?

    *not likely

  • Outsider

    I just wanted to point out that everyone has his or her frailties even you.

    If I remember correctly some of you alter ego names were used to both substantiate and pour scorn on your posts simultaneously, whilst some as you have pointed out were simply used for comic effect. Personally I would like you to display more of this comic flair under your own name rather than under other guises as Frank Sinistras posts tend to be rather serious.

    However I’m pleasantly surprised by your honesty in admitting your misdemeanours and I tip my hat to you for it.

  • dewi

    Nowt in today’s Scotsman either. I know papers have withdrawn corresondents but they surely monitor BBC website and Slugger. Strange. Things seem to be falling apart in so many places. Next IMC report will be fascinating.

  • I Wonder

    “Again I hope beyond hope that people learn to wait for the truth before making up their minds about this.”

    A very measured non-knee-jerk response from Ian Jnr this am.

    – Awaiting police report
    – Implications IF it was authorised by IRA

    Contrast that relatively mature approach with calling the SF MP for the area “a lying reptile”.

  • I wonder, you’re right. We people shouldn’t be calling Mr Murphy a lying anything; not when lying pales in comparison to supporting murder.

    I was struck by Conor Murphy’s assertion that “Republicans were not involved”.

    Unless he knows who did it, how does he know they’re not republicans? What he seems to be trying to say is that SF/IRA weren’t involved, but is clearly reticent to explicitly link the two, despite what we all know.

  • I Wonder

    Beano

    The report is that Mr Murphy does not BELIEVE that the IRA was involved. If someone hates the IRA, of course that hatred will make it impossible to believe anything other than that they DID kill this guy and that it was a sanctioned and deliberate act of murder.

    Thats the difference between having a closed mind and acting with a degree of responsibility – something which I’m pleasantly suprised to see in Ian P. Junior.

  • The reason people hate the IRA is because they murder, some people seem to struggle with that concept a little her.

    Kidso,

    Murphy is a convicted IRA terrorist. I am unsure what date he left the IRA but maybe Slugger’s legion of IRA apologists could reveal this as I am sure it would prove of interest.

  • GavBelfast

    Thats the difference between having a closed mind and acting with a degree of responsibility – something which I’m pleasantly suprised to see in Ian P. Junior.

    Posted by I Wonder on Oct 22, 2007 @ 10:26 AM

    Ahem ….

  • URQUHART

    Remembering Conor Murphy’s character reference for Slab Murphy (a “good republican”), it’s hard to doubt the veracity of his assessment.

  • I Wonder

    “The reason people hate the IRA is because they murder”

    Who was it said something about: “loving your enemies”?

  • The same person who insisted that sinners repent first. Bludgeoning a man to death is quite a sin, wouldn’t you say?

  • I Wonder

    Yes, I would say that killing innocents is both wrong and a sin. I would also say that any response to wrongdoing which expresses and urges hatred of the perpetrators is wrong.

    Then again, I, unlike some, haven’t expressed jubilation at the death of innocents such as Jean Charles de Menezes or urged the bombing of Lebanon into the Stone Age. So I don’t feel inclined to take lessons in morality from any hatemonger.

  • URQUHART

    A very effective riposte there from young Wonder.

    Given that Jeffrey Donaldson has said DUP will reconsider participation in the execuitve if Provos are involved, this issue deserves an updated post?

  • I am appalled by the uncredibly brutal murder of John Quinn but even more so by the cocksure conviction of most interested Unionists making out for sure that the PIRA did it.

    This occurred when the appointment of the Victims Commissioner had not yet been made, William Frazer’s Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR) was finally being obliged to meet Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness about their complaints, the murder of Robert McCartney has yet to be solved, etc.

    Now it seems that a Victims Commissioner like the former temporary one will be appointed, Frazer’s FAIR group has cancelled its meeting with McGuinness because of the terrible murder, and there is talk about the whole Executive having to be reshaped to deal with the apparent revived viciousness of SF and the Provos.

    In short, one should at least look at who stands to benefit by this simply over-the-top atrocity before making any knee-jerk reactions to it.

    Have you critics of republicans learned nothing from the over-the-top murder of Alexander Litvinenko by the Mossad, MI6, Italy’s SIS MI – what was to force Putin’s Russia into a corner where it could be dictated to by the oil-hungry West?

    Putin stood his ground about the obvious when it came to his killing, and you should stand so too – seeing that justice is really done for Quinn rather than just bark in ways which suit your narrow interests.

  • darth rumsfeld

    how will the DUP handle this one?

    Initial repsonse from Babydoc indicates the same “pragmatic” wriggling as Trimble in government- i.e. leave it to the police, hoping the story peters out. Some change from the DUP pre 2006. We can bet noone will be charged or convicted, just as with the Mccartney case, and in 18 months the poor victim will be forgotewn except by his family.

    An indication of the new order is to be found in the experience of the UUP ministers at Thursday’s executive meeting, who are alleged to have sat in a room on their own for 20 minutes as the SF/DUP ministers were locked in the great Crocodile’s office planning how to handle the Ritchie problem.Say it ain’t so, Punt!

  • Shore Road Resident

    If you’re going to spout off, Trowbridge, you could at least get the guy’s name right.

  • So, the victim’s name is Paul Quinn, not John Quinn – the guy the Mid-Ulster UVF murdered in March 1991. Sinn Fein lied about it to hide how the loyalists were reducing its ranks – what it no longer does.

    Now I have corrected this minor mistake, you can continue your rant,

  • Harry Flashman

    *the over-the-top murder of Alexander Litvinenko by the Mossad, MI6, Italy’s SIS MI*

    What, all of them?

    Hey what’s that rolling around the floor? Marbles? Er, Trowbridge, here they are! I found them, now try not to lose them again, eh?

  • VERITAS

    So Conor Murphy says repblicans aren’t involved. What he really means is, now that these people have done something which is going to bring heat on us i.e. SF, they are criminals.

    Remember Gerry Adams, “I don’t talk to criminals” rebuke. The men involved will now be shunned publicly by SF, until the heat surrounding this heinous murder subsides.

    SF have learned well from their masters. Remember how an RUC/UDR member suddenly became an ex-member when arrested.

  • andy

    Well according to the belfast tele the gardai were saying the guys were ex-ira (ie not just sf).

  • VERITAS

    Andy

    Given that it has been widely accepted that the IRA has disbanded, how can they be anything other than ex-IRA.

  • andy

    Widely accepted by whom? I know they had largely disarmed, but I dont recall any statement about them disbanding….

  • Sean

    Andy
    They have disarmed and I believe largely shead the hardmen problem is hardmen dont suddenly take up flower arranging and gardening. Left to their own devices they continue on the path they started on regardless of affiliation

  • VERITAS

    Andy

    Sorry, I could’ve put that better. I meant to say disarmed. And what is an army without weapons?

  • Briso

    An army with iron bars?

  • VERITAS

    Sean

    “Left to their own devices they continue on the path they started on regardless of affiliation”.

    What path do you have in mind?

  • Ahem

    Since it was never an army in the first place [hint: they don’t whine about *their* human rights when real armies shoot back at them], the Provos remain what they always were. A bunch of hoods, sectarian gunmen, illiterate killers and drug dealing psychos. The fact that a dozen or so of these cowardly scum have murdered yet another person really only should remind us just how many people Martin and co have *already* killed.

  • tweedledee

    Judging by the commentary from some of the unionist contributors to this website, you could be forgiven for thinking they lick their lips at the mere thought of someone being murdered by the IRA.

    Now form an orderly queue to pretend your concern is really for the victims and their families …

  • VERITAS

    Ahern

    I’m not usually one to interrupt a good rant but have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention?

    But re. to my original point, I see Gerry Adams has wasted no time in branding the killers as criminals.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Judging by the commentary from some of the unionist contributors to this website, you could be forgiven for thinking they lick their lips at the mere thought of someone being murdered by the IRA.”

    y’know, when – once again BTW- we’re probably going to be proved to be correct in our analysis that the Provos are just not the sort of people who should be allowed into any government it’s a bit rich to be criticised because there’s a danger that we might have been right all along. Which would still be the case even if this crime were carried out by the boy scouts

  • Sean

    Darth
    Why arent Sinn Fein the sort to be allowed in government, is it because the unionistas are true democrats…. oh yeah not really huh