Introduction:

Our guest today is one of the manosphere’s most influential and prominent thinkers: Jack Donovan, author of The Way of Men. Most of our interviews are about how men can do better with women; this one is not like that at all. In this episode, we talk about his (excellent) book, about masculinity, and about other male-centered issues. If you’re interested in that stuff, you’ll love this discussion, but if you just want actionable information relating to women, you probably want to skip this one.

Podcast:

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Key takeaways:

• If you cultivate the traits that earn you respect from other men and that make them want you as a friend or ally or mentor or member of their gang, you’re almost 70% or 80% of the way there in terms of what women also find attractive. If a guy did nothing other than cultivate the traits that other guys respect they’d still be doing way better than most guys are in terms of heterosexual attractiveness.
• If you feel disenchanted or disenfranchised from the modern world, the first step you should take is trying to form connections to other men in your area who like similar things and you get along with. Build a network, create your own community.
• Forming close bonds with other men is important.
• Men bond over aggression, but it doesn’t have to be against each other – it can be aggression against nature, hunting, climbing Mt.Everest, doing something risky, or completing a task that’s really hard.
• As we’ve said before, the alpha/beta male distinction and the whole word ‘alpha’ is fucking stupid. The majority of the time it’s mentioned it’s someone referring to themselves as alpha, and if you have to say you’re alpha, you’re not alpha. It’s like saying “I’m part of the elite”. The elite don’t say that.
• Men can be very caring and empathetic and still be masculine.
• A lot of vested interests try to define masculinity and what alpha is for young men in a way that’s in their interests. For example, marketers tell you that you become masculine by buying their stuff, captains of industry say you’re masculine if you work hard, etc. Be skeptical of people who can benefit from telling you what masculinity is. Ask yourself “Who wants me to be this way and why?”

Links from this episode

• Jack’s article on The Wolves of Vinland
• Jack’s interview with Paul from The Wolves of Vinland
• The Power of Clan

Jack Donovan’s Bio:

• Author of The Way of Men, Androphilia, A Sky Without Eagles, and Blood-Brotherhood and Other Rites of Male Alliance
• Jack writes about masculinity and manliness, and is known for his critiques of feminism and gay culture(despite being gay himself)
• Jack contributes to Radix Journal, Counter-Currents, the Spearhead and Alternative Right
• Jack publishes a podcast called Start the World

Jack Donovan’s Major Works:

The Way of Men

• Jack describes this project as aiming to “develop a universal definition of masculinity”
• There is a difference between being a “good guy” and being manly – e.g. if Batman is manly, is Bane unmanly? No, of course not.
• Different groups will have different agendas that they try to impose: “Established men of wealth and power have always wanted men to believe that being a man was about duty and obedience, or that manhood could be proved by attaining wealth and power through established channels. Men of religion and ideology have always wanted men to believe that being a man was a spiritual or moral endeavor, and that manhood could be proved through various means of self-mastery, self-denial, self-sacrifice or evangelism. Men who have somethin gto sell have always wanted men to believe that masculinity can be proved or improved by buying it.”
• Argues that the only way to reclaim masculinity and return to honor and manly virtue is to start a gang. Says “there are no moderate solutions to the problems presented by global capitalism, multiculturalism and feminism. Pan-secession into tribal groups within a failing state is the only alternative I see within most nations.” (source)
• Qualifies this by saying “You don’t have to have a Liberian-style gang. That’s not the only option. It’s definitely not a “starter” option. Think of the Yakuza or the Mafia, or as I’ve said recently, underground networks of immigrants. I don’t think many of us are ready to be Liberians, and I don’t think many of us would want to behave as they do. There are shades of gray between being a complete slave to the State and 8-year olds shooting each other with AK-47s.” (source)
• The book highlights four “tactical virtues” – honor, strength, mastery and courage – which he talks about in this piece on Thought Catalog
• On honor, Jack says: “Caring about what the men around you think of you is a show of respect, and conversely, not caring what other men think of you is a sign of disrespect.” (source)
• On modern men: “Men today are so protected and coddled. They’re told that they deserve “respect” just because they’re breathing. Many don’t have fathers, and whether they do or not, they have mothers and teachers and the media telling them that no one should ever bully them or make them feel bad. They play games where everybody is declared a winner. We all post our pictures and thoughts and feelings online, and expect people to “like” them and make us feel good about ourselves. This constant affirmation makes men narcissistic, delusional and weak.” (source) This isn’t a quote from the book but it’s an indication of what he thinks.

Androphilia

• Book is a criticism of gay culture
• Jack uses the phrase “androphilia” to describe himself as a man attracted to other men, but to distinguish himself from the connotations of the label “gay”.
• Quote: “Gay is a subculture, a slur, a set of gestures, a slang, a look, a posture, a parade, a rainbow flag, a film genre, a taste in music, a hairstyle, a marketing demographic, a bumper sticker, a political agenda and philosophical viewpoint. Gay is a pre-packaged, superficial persona–a lifestyle. It’s a sexual identity that has almost nothing to do with sexuality.”

A Sky Without Eagles

• This is a collection of his essays and speeches, covering topics like the necessity of violence, masculinity, anarcho-fascism and becoming a barbarian.
• Some quotes: “The only ‘freedom’ that feminism offers men is the freedom to do exactly what women want him to do.”, “Violence comes from people. It’s about time people woke up from their 1960s haze and started being honest about violence again. People are violent, and that’s OK. You can’t legislate it away or talk your way around it”, “The pro-feminist male is a wretched, guilt-ridden creature who must at every turn make certain he is not impeding the progress of women in any way.”

Further reading on Jack Donovan:

• Speech Jack gave at the New Policy Institute called “Becoming the New Barbarians” (27 minutes long)
• Transcript of a good interview with Jack
• Another interview with Jack that addresses, among other things, his latest book and his position on race
• Interesting piece Jack wrote on women who lift weights or do Crossfit etc.
• Jack’s Twitter
• Jack’s Website
• Jack’s Wikipedia Page

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
Let me try–I’m going to hang up and call him first and then you.

Jack:
You have reached New Barbarian Tattoo and this is Jack Donovan. Leave me a message.

Tucker:
Oh wait. Hold on. Here he is. Here he is.

Geoff:
Okay.

Tucker:
Alright let me add him. Oh, man.

Jack:
There!

Tucker:
Yo, Jack.

Jack:
Hey! How’s it going?

Tucker:
Good. What’s going on, man? I’ve got Geoff Miller on the line, too.

Geoff:
Hey Jack. How you doing?

Jack:
Hey. Good to talk to you.

Tucker:
So, we just got your voicemail. I’ve got to tell you. That was a pretty fucking awesome voicemail.

Geoff:
Does it still say the thing about don’t leave me a message?

Tucker:
No, no, I was laughing. It might. I was laughing too hard at the New Barbarian Tattoo. Like this is Mr. Jack. That’s not even your voice, is it? Is that you?

Jack:
Yeah, it’s me.

Tucker:
It was awesome. It was like, like out of a movie like when you go in to like, you know, like the whatever. You’re getting your. It’s almost like. I felt like if I was going through like a Joseph Campbell like test of manhood like life passage type thing this would be the voice that would welcome me to like the underworld where I actually had to face the beast or something. It was amazing.

Jack:
I like that. Thank you. That’s exactly what I was going for.

Tucker:
So, I got to say, Jack, I read, I had not read The Way of Men until Geoff had told me about it. I don’t know, six months or a year ago and I was like. I put it on my pile and I was like okay, I’ll read it eventually and just never got to it. And then once we booked you for the podcast, I read it on a plane flight. And I was blown away actually by the book because– Well, just first off, I’m sure you’re about my age now. You’re like 38, 39, something like that right?

Jack:
39, yeah.

Tucker:
39. So, I’m about to turn 39. So, you probably know what I mean. Like we’ve kind of gotten, at least I’ve gotten to the age where it’s like obviously I haven’t read everything but I’ve read enough that it’s very rare for me to read a book that really either challenges my thinking or like sheds new, really original new sort of lights on things that I hadn’t thought of or something like that, you know? And Way of Men definitely, there were passages where like I sat it down and I was like fuck, I never thought about that like that. That’s really. Either I totally disagree or it’s really brilliant or whatever but they were like. It was- I don’t know. It was a book that had way more intellectual heft than I ever, ever would have guessed from the cover or from whatever sort of other sort of thing. So, I don’t know. Like it’s a fantastic book, dude. I just wanted to tell you before we start.

Jack:
Thanks, man. That’s great to hear.

Geoff:
Yeah, I had completely the same reaction. That’s why I’ve been recommending it to my Evolutionary psychology colleagues. Saying we’ve basically failed in our mission to understand huge areas of male psychology because we focus so, so much on kind of, you know, female mate preferences and how guys can please women. And we do so little on just male-male relationships and gangs and coalitions and warfare and violence and, you know, status within male hierarchies. I mean, there’s a little on that but it’s just, it’s such a taboo to study that stuff that still it kind of takes somebody outside academia to kind of have the guts to articulate a lot of that stuff. And, so, yeah, it was super impressive and thought provoking to me, too.

Jack:
Cool. Thank you.

Tucker:
Yeah. So, here’s what I actually want to start. We’ve got a ton of things we want to cover in the interview but my question to you is like what is your general impression? I know you’ve kind of written about this but let’s go over this for the listeners. What’s your general impression of, let’s say, the “manosphere”? And I know that’s a very broad sort of, it’s a very broad set of people but like what are you overall think of, you know, like go down the list, pickup artists, men’s rights activists, like. Where do you kind of, what do you think about, about those people?

Jack:
Well, I’ve had a good bit of interaction with all of them.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I mean, to the point I’ve probably exchanged emails with ¾ of the major names out there. And I’ve talked a lot to a lot of those guys. And as far as like pickup artists, it is helpful and unhelpful. It’s, in many ways what they’re really teaching is gateway masculinity.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
For a bunch of guys who really have really no father figures, no real role models, no and who have been told that everything masculine is bad all their lives.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And, so, in their quest to get laid they’re learning kind of things that they would learn in a group of men had they ever been part of one.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know? But so, it is helpful in the way that it gets them thinking about that kind of stuff. If it becomes just, you know, some of those guys get some helpful information. I knew a guy who’s in his 30s or 40s and read Roissy for a while and it helped them figure out oh, this is who I need to be in this relationship so that it works.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Instead of just getting pushed around all the time. And now, he has really good relationships. But if it becomes this masculinity measured only by how many women you sleep with then you’re really letting women define masculinity. So, it just becomes very unhelpful at that point.

Tucker:
Right. What about the men’s– I hate to use the term men’s rights activists because it seems so ridiculous to me.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
But like how much do you engage with the people who are just it seems like they define it almost seems like their anti they’re sort of the male response to, you know, extreme gender feminists. They are the type who are like every single thing that happens is like oh, this is another example of how awful society is. And sometimes they’re totally right and other times it’s like ‘dude.’ What’s your take on that?

Jack:
Well, men’s rights activists by that name to me are feminists because what they’re really looking for is equality and equality between men and women is kind of a silly thing because apples and oranges. But what they are really, they’re calling out women on not actually caring about equality.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And women just acting in their own interests. And, you know, so, by traditional definitions of what feminism says it wants they are actually feminists.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, they want gender equality. So, I’m not really because I see men and women as being different enough that equality is kind of a strange goal.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, I really don’t count myself among them. But, and also it is very tiresome. I mean, what they really do is argue with women a lot. And then, you know, as Putin said it’s just really not a good idea. So, I mean, basically like arguing with women all the time and they’re being the other side of this hysterical outrage politics that we have now where, you know, the latest thing. And I don’t write about it anymore because it’s tiresome.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
You know, what everybody’s gossiping about on Twitter today is what we’re all supposed to care about.

Tucker:
Right, right, exactly. Yeah. I know it’s funny, kind of funny like this morning the Ray Rice footage sort of leaked where he hit his wife in the elevator and you actually see him hit her. And it’s like, it’s almost like it’s crazy. I follow a ton of people on Twitter and there’s almost like a race, an escalating race to run up outrage mountain all by white people. And it’s like oh, yeah, look, I can totally see why you would be angry about domestic violence or what– I mean, there’s a ton of reasons to be upset but it’s almost like who can be the most outraged and the most upset to show what an amazingly advanced moral modern person they are.

Jack:
It’s totally a social display.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
That’s all it is. It’s like a morality. I always wondered how related to, is like, I mean it’s the thing that women do a lot and now everyone does it.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
But in terms of like this kind of moral display, it’s like almost like a purity display. You know, they’re showing how, I’m more pure than you are. You know, it’s almost like women trying to show that they’re more moral instead of more, you know, men worrying about being courageous. You know, it seems to me like it has something to do with that. Jim Goad actually called it the new church ladies and think that’s very religious impulse.

Geoff:
It kind of crushes male courage in terms of expressing your true opinions because the blow back is so intense from both men and women. And there’s also economic incentives behind this because moral outrage is a really reliable way to drive sort of click bait journalism and pageviews. You know, it’s more reliable than almost anything else.

Tucker:
Yeah. Outrage and wonder are the two ways you drive click bait and it’s hard to generate wonder. That’s basically upworthy and then outrage is basically gawker media, you know?

Jack:
Yeah. Yeah. Everyone’s doing it. I read a little piece about it even major newspapers do it now

Tucker:
Yeah. Oh, of course because they have to compete because they have to compete online and.

Jack:
Everything’s gawker.

Tucker:
Yeah, exactly. But you know it seems to me like, I think the pendulum’s going to swing back the other way. People are already starting to get tired of this because it’s like every post is, you know, like this dog met a kid. You’ll be amazed at what happened next. And it’s like a fucking dog licks the kid. It’s like alright. I’ve seen this shit, right? Like I don’t need. There’s a whole Twitter accounts now that are like saved you a click and like Huff Post spoilers that are like kind of like basically telling you what’s in the click. And they’re amazing not just because they save you a click. I wasn’t going to click on that shit to begin with but it’s like, like you’ll see the link and then usually it’s one or two words and the answer is something ridiculous, you know? Like somebody’ll be like oh, you won’t believe what Gwenyth Paltrow wore to the beach for Con and then like the click, the saved you a click is a bathing suit. Things like this over and over. I think the pendulum’s swinging and people are eventually get tired of that but whatever. That’s just the way. This is the exact same model that happened with yellow journalism early 19th century like very sensationalistic standards developed, people got tired of it. It’s just the pendulum goes back and forth. But Jack, I want to ask you because this was actually one of the things. I didn’t actually realize it because it’s not really that relevant but it’s one of those things that you’re like oh, okay. In the middle of The Way of Men, I realized that you were gay. And you say something about it or I realized it for some reason or something. And it was like, I was like okay because there were some insights you had in there where I was like fuck, how did I never think of it? It’s so obvious once he says it but I never thought of it before. How’d I never think of it? It’s like oh, okay. If he’s a very masculine gay guy then I could totally see how he would see that in a different way. But let me ask you this question. Do you think the fact that being gay, do you think that that in anyway, obviously it impacts your analysis, right? Both positive and negative, right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Or it makes you more insightful in certain things and less insightful in other things. Because the one thing I read in The Way of Men or the one overall theme I kept coming back to was he hardly talks at all about sort of women and what men– You definitely talk about it but it’s almost like women are a second thought. And I get why. I totally got your line of sort of logic is that even if you’re going to talk about women, women are always historically mostly impressed by men who are high status and the way you become a high status man is to impress other men, right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I mean, I get that line of thought. It makes a lot of sense. But I just felt like there was a lot more about my experience with women that was sort of missing in the book. It’s not even necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions. It’s just like I don’t know, man. There’s just a lot of other things I like about women or I want about women that don’t necessarily negate what you’re saying. You know what I’m saying? But like.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
But like there’s almost like a piece missing, I felt for the book.

Jack:
Well, the thing is once you start talking about women then you have a critique of women and you have this whole other mess.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
To deal with. And I wanted to talk about men.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And obviously, men and their relationship with women is this whole other topic, really. You know, I mean, it’s important but it’s there. And I’m not illiterate in that particular area as most homosexual men are. I mean, I’ve had girlfriends and sex with women and all that kind of stuff. So, it’s not like I don’t get it.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And also, what’s interesting is I actually have less patience with women because I’ve been the gay best friend and listened to women talk.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
About men. So, like.

Tucker:
I totally know what you mean, man.

Jack:
I feel like I have that experience, too so maybe I’m like I always say like their tricks really don’t work on me.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know? Like but I didn’t want to make it a book of women hating so I didn’t want to get into that.

Tucker:
Yeah, yeah.

Jack:
I just kind of wanted let’s just talk about men.

Tucker:
Right.

Geoff:
But you also, you’re not that comfortable with the term gay, right? You prefer androphile?

Jack:
Yeah, I mean it’s.

Geoff:
You talked about gay as a whole kind of lifestyle pact.

Tucker:
Right, a subculture. Androphilia is the term you like, right?

Jack:
I do. I mean, that was kind of inside conversation for homosexual men just like getting them to talk, think about themselves was kind of the idea. I didn’t really ever expect that to be something that people used in regular society.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
If pressed into discussion about it, I mean I kind of use homosexual because it kind of describes what it is. But I mean, for me, I try to avoid it now just because it’s an issue of like it’s a distraction from what I’m talking about, you know, with in terms of like The Way of Men or whatever. But I really do feel like it, you know, in some way it allowed me like you said to see things that maybe other guys wouldn’t see. And in a way, it’s like the problem of like okay, you can see. Like I’ve been far more effeminate in my life than now and also I’ve looked at, you know, look at most. You know, there’s gay men that they call hundred yard boys that you can see, you can see that that guy likes dick from 100 yards away.

Tucker:
Right, right.

Jack:
You know. Why do you know? You know, what are you seeing? You aren’t seeing homosexuality. You’re seeing.

Tucker:
Feminine mannerisms.

Jack:
Yeah. And, so, in many ways that was part of the question that I was trying to answer. Like what are we seeing? What are they signaling? You know, so I mean, I think that that kind of informed my ability to, you know, talk about what manhood is and what it isn’t.

Geoff:
One thing that struck me in The Way of Men is that although there’s very little discussion about what women want or what would be attractive to them. Having read it, I kind of thought if you actually cultivated the male traits that earn you respect from other men and that are attractive to them as, you know, wanting you as a friend or ally or mentor or member of your gang or member of your platoon that you’re kind of almost 70% or 80% of the way there in terms of what women also find attractive.

Jack:
Right.

Geoff:
So, it seemed like there was a really big overlap where even if guys did nothing other than just cultivate the traits that other guys respect they’d still be doing way better than most guys are in terms of heterosexual attractiveness.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
Do you agree with that?

Jack:
In terms of attractiveness I think, at that point they become increasingly frustrated with women. It’s like a lot of guys who are, you know, in the military and stuff like that. I’ve had a lot of experience with guys like that who are really masculine guys. In their head, they exist in such a male world that they have a real, they get really frustrated with women really quickly, you know? So, it’s like, women might find them more like sexually desirable but then, you know, and more mysterious almost because it’s like an other.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
In the same way. You know, like, I think those guys get really frustrated with women because they talk about things they don’t want to talk about and feel things they don’t want to feel, you know?

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Here’s the thing that I like one of the things I really liked about The Way of Men. One of my favorite things actually about it was how, how starkly honest–Well, first off, how stark the prose is. Like you, it’s so awesome, so many fucking books that are 350 pages and should be 50.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
It’s just like oh, God dude just say it. I want to take a red pen to 90% of it and especially even by academics, especially. It’s like alright. And, so, your book is so great. It gets everything out of the way in that regard. But, also, how starkly honest you are about violence and how violence is the bedrock of almost all interactions and whether people recognize it or not etc. etc. So, let me ask you. What would you recommend? Well, first off, this is more of a personal question. Why did you pick the word gang instead of tribe? Was it because of like the underlying that you think like violence is sort of the underlying bedrock of all interactions and gang reflects sort of the violent nature of masculinity more than a tribe does? Tribe includes more women or like why did you pick that word as opposed to something else like tribe?

Jack:
Yeah, because tribe is everyone.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Tribe is children and whole families and all that whereas I’m talking about basically the mannerbund. You know, you’re talking about groups of men who are organized around the concept of violence as a job a description.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Really, I mean, that’s what they do and, you know, that’s kind of their first priority rather than, you know. Like tribe is everyone. Tribe is what they’re trying to protect.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
In many cases, you know? So, it’s. It is, it’s a word that makes, you know, people upset because they want to call it something else, you know, which is fine. I mean, it is, you know, kind of intentionally controversial but I mean, I think it does describe. I think it takes the morality out of it because we call gangs basically anybody the government doesn’t like.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And, you know, when the government makes gangs then it’s, they’re not gangs they’re something else.

Tucker:
They’re called a police force or military.

Jack:
Exactly. It’s all the same thing really.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
So, I mean those guys are gangs just as much as anybody else. They’re, you know, very insular in many cases and–

Tucker:
Right. So, let me ask. Just I’m a little confused though. One of the things and I totally got like sort of the, the idea that men are going to have to in a way stop sucking at the teat of the nanny state in order to become more masculine. But do you see that? Let’s say, in the vaguest sense, as breaking down into real like violent gangs that oppose each other or is more like? Because you talk also other times in the book where civilization is a tradeoff between sort of violence and sort of not non-violence but more lack of violence, convenience and all those sorts of things. Or is it more like I’m going to form a gang and we’re going to define ourselves in sort of different ways but not necessarily violently oppose other gangs? Or am I missing sort of?

Jack:
Well, I think violence always ends up being a part of it if you’re serious.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Yeah, if you’re really, you know, if you’re really about protecting your interests over somebody else’s interests somewhere down the line violence is on the table.

Tucker:
So, what do you think of Steven Pinker’s stuff and lots of other people have written like basically human progress is– Like I train MMA, so I don’t have an agenda necessarily.

Jack:
Right, right.

Tucker:
An anti-violence agenda. I’m a big fan- I get what you’re saying. But on the other hand, it’s like in the aggregate if you’re looking at civilization or society as a whole, violence benefits pretty much no one except for the guys who win the fight, right?

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
Whereas, something more like, you know, trade. The more society has shifted away from violence and towards property rights and defined set of rules that can allow for trade.

Jack:
Yes.

Tucker:
Basically, the safer and the more prosperous within certain definitions civilization becomes, right? So, in your mind, where does the balance sit? Let’s say in your ideal world or whatever.

Jack:
Right. Well, I’ve thought a lot about that. I mean, basically what you’re saying is someone said, you know, when men stop talking, you know, about killing each other and start talking about making money then society is better. And then, I don’t necessarily know if I agree with that in terms of, I mean. It’s better in terms of we have more cool stuff.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I don’t know about, it’s better in the way that men experience their lives, you know? I don’t. It just depends on what. It’s a philosophical thing about what you think is good.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, it’s like is everybody being safe and everybody having, you know, iPhones, the ultimate good or is there, are there other considerations? It’s a conflict between honor and materialism.

Tucker:
Okay. Right. But, I guess here’s the goal, not the goal, the end point of this line of questioning. Is it possible for – and I don’t know the answer, dude. I’m more curious about what you think. Is it possible for men to fulfill the requirements of masculinity, at least the way you define them in your book which I think are pretty solid. Is it possible to fulfill those requirements without an actual combat violent interaction with other men as opposed forces? Whereas like I don’t consider training for violence to defend yourself, I don’t consider that violence. It’s violence, of course, but you’re not, you’re not trying to kill somebody else. You’re trying to make sure no one can kill you, right?

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
Which is very different, like I trained in MMA. I don’t go out and rob people with it.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
You know what I’m saying, right? So, is there a way or do you see a way to that men could create a cultural world, a civilization where they can fully or nearly fully express their masculinity without there having to be lots of intergroup violence like wars, etc. which are highly destructive and, you know, kill a lot of people, right?

Jack:
Right. Well, I mean, I think that there’s a sweet spot as with anything.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I think that, you know, the pendulum goes one way and then it goes the other way. I think right now we’re too far on the one side. I think that you have to have the possibility of risk to have masculinity. And, you know, if you don’t have the possibility of risk, you know, if you knew that you would never, ever, ever, ever, ever be attacked.

Tucker:
Oh, I’d say a lot of shit.

Jack:
The MMA training would be worthless, right?

Tucker:
Exactly. Totally pointless.

Jack:
So, I mean, it’s the possibility of violence that makes it like exciting.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
So, the possibility that something bad could happen. And, so, if you take away all that possibility and live in a world of complete safety then masculinity cannot flourish.

Tucker:
Right. But does risk have to be marshal violence between groups who are trying to kill each other? Can it be other sorts of risks as a proxy for that? Whether it’s sports or MMA or business or any number of things, you know?

Jack:
Well, that’s what sports have always been.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Sports are peace time violence.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Within, you know, a tribe that is stable in a time of peace, you have sports and things like that but I think that, you know, if you get, you know, 400 years out from the last actual violence then I think that then, you know, you that’s a possibility that goes down, you know what I mean? I feel like in many cases, you know, like you’ve had sports because this generation doesn’t have a war but the next one is going to.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I mean, in ancient Rome or any other place where they had, you know, sporting events, I mean, the anticipation of actual violence was always there. I mean, I think that, you know, once you have nothing but playing then you have, you know, it becomes kind of a masturbatory society. And I do think that men do need to test themselves. They need to have that kind of narrative otherwise, we just kind of have, we’d just be kind of become a shadow of ourselves.

Tucker:
Right. Well, I mean, we talked actually earlier about Hero’s Journey. So, Hero’s Journey is very much like in line with what you’re talking about. But does it always have to be, in your mind it always has to end in some sort of marshal output against someone you define as an other? Or does it, can it be, you know, like?

Jack:
Well, I think in many ways, like Aion and I always talk about that. I always make a point to say like men bond and I think this comes from Lionel Tiger. But like men bond, you know, over aggression but it might be aggression against nature.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
So, I mean, men get a lot of use– There other kinds of risks. You know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be against men. When men hunt they get the same thing.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
When they have to complete a task that’s really hard, you know, say like get on an oil rig and it could break or whatever. You have this, this risk there that’s, you know, that’s men fighting nature and all these things. So, I mean, I think that there’s, there’s ample opportunity for satisfaction in that. I think that we’re in a place unfortunately where technology actually takes a lot of that away too. You know? We’re in a place where like, you know, like you go to those. There are very few places where you can actually have a dangerous job anymore.

Tucker:
Yeah. No, it is actually kind of hard. You’re right.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I know Mike Rowe was actually talking about that that it took them a while before they actually could find enough dirty jobs, like dirty, not just meaning filthy but risky actually.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
Yeah and I think young men have the sort of delusion that doing the more ritualized martial arts like Tae Kwon Do and going to the shooting range and watching a bunch of action hero movies is an adequate substitute for actually experiencing real life risk or violence. And then when real violence or the threat of it happens they’re completely unprepared. For example, in a simunations training course where you go out to a shooting range with these kind of modified Glocks and shoot little paint balls. And people come at you and you have to kind of practice your tactical evasion and verbal command skills and decide when to draw, when to shoot. And even the guys that’s spent years on the range plinking with targets just screamed like little girls when, when the trainers came at them acting like muggers, right? And they just panicked and lost it because they’d never experienced a true adrenaline rush.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
Under stress before and I thought man, a lot of young men are just kind of playing at the trappings of the Hero’s quest.

Tucker:
They’re putting on the identity of masculinity and not actually doing it.

Geoff:
But they really don’t know and I think this is also why a lot of them have, you know, PTSD if they actually go to Iraq or Afghanistan and they’re just really unprepared for it.

Jack:
Yeah. I’m sure. I mean, if you think about even 50 years ago or 100 years ago guys who went to war had been doing the Tom Sawyer scraping, you know, the whole way through, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, to have to be in battle. Which is, I think, modern battle is kind of weird anyway. It’s like they, of course, they most of the way they get hurt is walking.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
They just walk oh, I got blown up. You know, it’s not like they’re in a battle fighting somebody. They’re just like oh, yeah, you just have to be scared about walking.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
Stuff like that. It’s kind of a weird way to fight wars.

Tucker:
Jack, so, you know, one of the defining sentences of I guess or sections of The Way of Men is the Way of Men is the gang. And you kind of talk about like. So, can you explain, you don’t really explain it in the book what really do you– So, let’s say I’m a young guy and I’m like, alright, I read your book. I love it. Totally get it. I don’t have enough risk in my life. I want more. I want to form a gang or join a gang. What does that actually, what does The Way of Men look like in real life for me as a young guy? Like what are things I should be or could be, what are things I could be doing? Like what does that really mean? Take it out of theory and into practice for me as a 19 year old.

Jack:
A great example. It’s the best example I’ve seen. Like is this gang. I did an article about it called The Wolves of Vinland. It’s this gang in Virginia of these guys who they actually swear into a gang. They wear motorcycle cuts but they don’t have motorcycles. It’s not a motorcycle gang. And they have a tribe. They have places they have to be all the time. They have people who they depend on, you know? Once a month they meet up and they actually fight in the dirt. They fight in the dirt all day and then they have this kind of heathen ritual thing at night. And it’s really, it was really real. I went down to see it in Virginia and it was really real. I have a couple of those guys coming up to meet me soon. I mean, obviously, that’s not going to be the right thing for everybody but in terms of– I mean, you really have to, a gang really means that you care more about these people than you care about other people. You can’t just, you know, sit in your house and be separated from everybody and just have this cute little club. I mean, you have to have these shared interests and that’s hard to do in modern society. But I think if–

Geoff:
It can’t be like a Facebook gang.

Jack:
No because that doesn’t mean anything. People threaten to do that, you know? But I have seen and that is interesting though because I have. There is this forum that I followed for a few years. And I’ve met some of these guys in real life. It was, it used to be Arthur’s Hall of Viking Manliness and then they had a little forum that came off of that.

Tucker:
Oh, yeah, I heard about that. Yeah.

Jack:
Yeah. And I’ve met some of those guys and a lot of those guys have been hanging out on the internet since they were like 14 years old.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And now, they’re grown up. Some of them have gone through the military already or whatever. And they get together and they actually have a culture from that because they have like all these shared jokes and all these cultural features that have happened over years and years and years.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
Just from the internet and then when they get together, you know, they bond really quick because they have all this history. So, it kind of can happen on the internet but eventually it has to be in the real world or it’s just, you know, bullshit.

Tucker:
Right, right.

Jack:
You know, but it was kind of cool to see. I mean, those guys, you know, met up, all bought a bunch of guns and were camping for three or four days and they had a great time.

Tucker:
Well, let’s go back to the Virginia gang because I’m a little confused. Like you said it’s really real but what do they do? Like a gang’s supposed to have a purpose, right? Like we, it’s not just people rely on us and I care more about these people than other people. There’s generally got to be a unifying mission, purpose, goal, right? I mean, like if you’re thinking about like a tribal gang it’s let’s keep our tribe safe, right?

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
What is, what is the purpose of these guys? Or their goal or whatever?

Jack:
I think, I mean, identity is a purpose. You know, having an identity especially in modern society. I mean, that’s what they’re selling to us all the time is like everybody wants to have some kind of identity and they don’t really have anything that’s not disposable. And I think having an actual identity is a purpose unto itself. Then that’s what I think a lot of people crave. And when I get emails from people, guys about this, they’re like I need to have something like that in my life. I need to have some connection to other dudes that is more important. You know, it’s, I mean, obviously, if somebody in that tribe has threatened then all of a sudden you have a purpose, you know? I mean, basically, I don’t think that tribes necessarily have to have a, you know, a higher purpose in the sense. And I don’t think like MS13 has a higher purpose. You know what I mean?

Tucker:
They do, they do actually have a higher purpose though. It’s to make–

Jack:
Then you have interest and you need to get stuff to support those interests and then you do what you need to do.

Tucker:
I shouldn’t say that they have a higher purpose. They have a purpose. I mean.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
I mean, MS13 definitely has a purpose. Like every narco-trafficking gang has a very clear maybe not a higher purpose as we define it. I mean, almost certainly not but they have. That’s sort of my point is like I wonder, I think this is actually one of the reasons why start up culture has become so popular so fast. It’s not just that people want to make money through starting new companies and it’s not even that, that all this information people realize is the way now. I think it’s that, that startups are a way that people can join in a small group of like-minded people who have a common purpose that they find meaningful, you know? But they’re actually doing something. Like our goal is to create this company that does X whether we’re digging wells in Africa or making an app. And a lot, I get a lot of the sort of results are relatively consumeristic and masturbatory. Like, yeah, probably. Some of them are amazing though, right? Okay, fine. That, that was one of the things I didn’t really fully pull out of The Way of Men is like alright, if you’re Romulus and you want to found Rome I get a gang is the way to start. Makes total sense. But I don’t know what a gang looks like because even what you just said is like okay, these guys they now have an identity. But an identity that surrounds what? Like they don’t, like if they’re all hunters or something that makes sense. And, you know, even if they’re all into like raw milk or I don’t know. Like there are things that you can, you know, there’s a bunch of people, you know, organic farmers whatever. There’s a million identities.

Jack:
Well, I think they’re united by the revolt against the modern world to a certain extent. I mean.

Tucker:
But they live in the modern world though, right?

Jack:
Huh?

Tucker:
They live in the modern world. They live in Virginia.

Jack:
Well, you can’t not live in the modern world but–

Tucker:
I mean, but like.

Jack:
In the sense of like what they’re reacting to in terms of like value systems and so forth. So, I mean they do have a shared set of values and it’s not just like oh, we’re together in the same room therefore, we have an identity.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I mean they have some shared values and things like that that they, I mean– I know there’s part of their group is has their own kind of sustainable kind of house that they’re building and stuff like that. So, I mean, they have some value. They’re trying to separate themselves from the modern world and live in the way that they want to live rather than kind of living. You know, obviously, they all interface with the modern world. I mean, as do the Amish.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
But the Amish have a separate community and they’re trying to in many ways create their own way of life.

Geoff:
I think, you know, Tucker, I think there’s two key differences between a gang and let’s say a startup company. One is we’re so used to consumerist capitalism that we think any given group or organization needs to have some kind of mission statement, right or corporate value statement. And the thing is most prehistoric gangs and tribes they don’t have any ulterior goal other than just.

Tucker:
Surviving.

Geoff:
Surviving and doing well and it’s not like they sit down and go okay, our gang’s goal is to, you know, cure the world’s fresh water scarcity problems. They just go basically our goals are entirely instinctive. We’re going to hang out, have fun, defend ourselves, get shit, like get groupies whatever.

Tucker:
We’re going to survive, right.

Geoff:
We’re going to survive and then later they might need some moralistic rationale, right, for why they deserve respect from other gangs. But I think the basic gang psychology is like there’s no collective purpose beyond just the instincts to form the gang. And that’s a very alien way to think for modern guys. The second difference is you can’t have a startup where you exclude women. Every American business or corporation has to be open to both sexes. Whereas, it seems like Jack’s notion of gang is it’s all male and so, it’s almost excluded from doing anything sort economically significant in society because then they’d be subject to all kinds of laws about oh, you can’t just arbitrarily exclude women who might want to join the gang.

Tucker:
But as I understand it, Jack, the guys you’re– and this might not be a great example so if it’s not that’s fine. But the guys you were talking about in Virginia. They’re building a community houses like a resilient community which a bunch of different types of groups are doing. I think it makes a ton of sense for a lot of different reasons. But I assume that they’re, I mean unless they’re all, you know, homosexuals or whatever they have women, right? I mean, they’re, some of them are married.

Jack:
Again, gang and tribe.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
They’re building a tribe to go with their gang, you know?

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
So, that’s, I mean, they have. Yeah, they have women members, they participate in a lot of things. They’re actually a few women members of the gang, too.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
But, you know, they’re mostly men. And, but, and, you know, another, you know, we always hear about crime and MS13 and stuff like that. But I think maybe something that is more analogous to what I’m talking about is maybe like motorcycle gangs.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
In the sense of like they create an identity in many ways. A lot of them used to be like disgruntled vets and stuff that wanted to break away from society in a different way. And, so, it’s kind of more similar to that and I think that that’s, I mean, in many ways if you look at somebody who’s coming from like the “manosphere” or coming from like just some dissatisfaction with feminism or the modern world or the way they have to interact or political correctness and they read something like The Way of Men. The reason they want to do this is because, in many ways, they’re revolting against something so they want to create a new identity that’s against something. So, there is kind of, you know, some kind of purpose there to begin with.

Tucker:
Right, right, right. Alright, so, let’s try. One of the things I was trying to do in our podcast for our listeners is have actionable sort of advice out of this. And the first thing I would recommend to anyone listening is go read Jack’s book The Way of Men because like at this point the podcast is worthless if you haven’t read the book because we’re already assuming knowledge of the book. But let’s get back to sort of the original question. If I’m a 19 year old and I feel very, a lot of the same things that you’ve identified in your book and a lot of guys feel, whether it’s, you know, sort of disenchanted or disenfranchised from the modern world, you know, feel all these urges to takes risks and desires for things like that a lot of people frown upon, but, you know, are integral to who they are. I’m like alright, I want to form a gang or I want to do these sorts of things. What are some ways like you’ve already given one example. You can form your own sort of community and actually create a gang. Are there steps, you think, towards that? Because that’s pretty, I don’t want to say extreme but that’s a lot, right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
So, where would a 19 year old.

Jack:
It’s hard.

Tucker:
Right, it’s not, I mean that’s part of it. I get that’s part of the sort of the thing is that it’s worth it because it’s hard, right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
So, if I’m a 19 year old and I’m like alright dude. Like maybe I’ll get there in a few years. What do I do now? You know? Like what do I do right now?

Jack:
Use your computer to find ways to get off your computer. Basically, in the sense of like, build real life connections to other men in your area. Like as simple as if someone wanted to go train at a martial arts gym. You know, like, of a sudden you’re meeting dudes that you’re having some kind of physical interaction with on a regular basis that could then become real life friends that you have a connection with. And all of a sudden, you’re building a network and you maybe go to their businesses or get a job from that guy or whatever. I mean, that’s a real network that actually matters.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Once you have, I mean, I have that at my gym. It’s like I made friends with this guy at the gym. All of a sudden he moves the location and that’s where I have my tattoo shop now because we started out as friends at the gym and all of a sudden, you know. So, we have like this trading relationship and we are connected.

Tucker:
Right, right, right.

Jack:
In some way. And, so, like you start building those kind of connections to, where you’re for trade or whatever, you’re depending on more than, more on people around you and less on external things from far away.

Tucker:
Right, right, right.

Jack:
Being closer to men close to you, that’s better.

Tucker:
So, I guess the beginning step in The Way of Men for you actual step is creating a social network with guys that like similar things to you that you get along with and then building out from there.

Jack:
Yeah, you gotta have friends.

Tucker:
Having friends. Right, exactly.

Jack:
A lot of guys don’t have friends, you know? I think modern life, you know, it’s very conditioned that we’re going to meet a mate and then go off and then just be with that mate and do that, you know? They’ll go into a girlfriend tunnel and all of a sudden they don’t have any friends anymore.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
And then they’re kind of completely dependent on a woman and they have no network.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And, so, I think that they need to, that’s a tough thing too is for them to keep that network because girlfriends take time and friends take time. But if you, you know, you’ve got to have both.

Geoff:
So, just to kind of push on that point a little bit more. Let’s say, you know, a guy wants to learn how to use power tools. The two kinds of options are there’s the consumerist option where you go to like rent power tools and Home Depot. The other option is you have friends who you know have power tools you can borrow a Miter saw from.

Tucker:
Or you make friends actually, I think.

Geoff:
Right. And I guess your point is you can kind of do a reality check where you go what guys do I actually know in person where I live who I could get helpful resources or tools or advice from? As opposed to kind of relying on this impersonal economic exchange.

Tucker:
Right. And if you don’t know them, go find them and then befriend them. Which is the other step, I think.

Jack:
It’s also hard because, you know, like it’s easy to surround yourself with people who are going to be nice to you and they kind of affirm you but you know if you’re kind of, if you’re going to go out and be friends with men you have to, you know, be ready for the potential of criticism because men can be a little harsh. Men are harder to be around than, you know, a bunch of women that’ll like everything you post on Facebook.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, I mean, you have to be willing to go out especially if you want to be around, if you want to make yourself better you have to surround yourself with better men, you know? Men who are probably not, where you’re not going to be the alpha. And that’s hard for a lot of guys because they don’t really– It’s really easy to be an alpha by yourself. You need to go out and be willing to be around guys who are going to criticize you, because those are the guys who you’re going to learn how to use the power tools from.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You’re coming to them as someone who doesn’t know anything. Hopefully, you have something else to offer.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
But, you know, that’s, I mean, what Geoff brought up about the consumerist point is, so much of this and that’s what’s really frustrating about all of this manliness stuff is that so many of our options are really kind of bourgeois in the sense of like, you know. How many of us can afford to go and take martial arts? Or like, so many of these things that we can do are like kind of like upper class, you know, fun things.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Whereas, like the guy who’s making ten bucks an hour can’t do all this stuff. So, it’s kind of it’s a very interesting thing to think about, I mean. As far as like, like the power tools things, I love to go hunting. I don’t have the network for that. That’s like.

Tucker:
You’ve got to come to Texas, dude. I’ve got a fucking house full of guns and there’s no bag limit and no season on hogs.

Jack:
What?

Tucker:
I know twenty. You can shoot them from a helicopter actually if you want. I know 20 friends who have like leases. If you want to come hog hunting dude come down to Texas and we’ll go kill a bunch of hogs. I mean, that’s–

Jack:
That’s like, that’s the thing. If you don’t have the network, like.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
It’s like you have to have like, you know, you have to figure out what the tag season system is and then you have to go find where do you even hunt, you know?

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
It’s this whole thing where if you have an uncle or a grandpa then it’s just this thing that you do, you know? So, you know, it’s a harder and harder thing, I think, for young men to do, they don’t have that experience, you know?

Geoff:
So, on the uncle grandpa issue, do you think it’s important in a gang to have kind of a mixture of ages so the young men are actually interacting with guys who are not just their peer group, the same cohort. Where it’s kind of the local alpha’s likely to be 20 years older than you if you’re in a proper gang that’s inclusive, it’s not going to be just a bunch of 19 year olds getting together and doing a little sort of fight club thing, right? It’s going to be transmission of experience and wisdom and skills from, you know, elders to youth. It’s going to involve mentors.

Jack:
I think that’s a mature gang. I mean, that’s like a mature, I mean that’s when it becomes the tribe and becomes part of a community. I think that realistically it’s going to be the 19 year olds getting together and who are really going to bond because they’re going to have the most in common.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
But hopefully, you know, when they become 25 they bring in some more 19 year olds. Then all of a sudden you start to have that. I think that’s important to have any kind of consistency and to replace that thing that a lot of these men are lacking which is kind of father figures and role models and things like that. But I don’t know. If you guys don’t mind. Does anyone want to talk about the word alpha?

Tucker:
Please actually. No, I would. Oh, dude.

Jack:
It’s really bugging me lately.

Tucker:
No. let’s actually because I think the alpha/beta distinction and the whole word alpha is so fucking stupid and almost every single person.

Jack:
We all use it though.

Tucker:
Because it’s an easy shortcut to know I understand what you mean, the highest ranking male. Except most people who use it don’t mean that and they don’t know what they’re talking about. But, Jack, why don’t you please talk about alpha for a second?

Jack:
Well, it’s just, it’s such a, it is a confusing term and it’s become this marketing term and I’ve seen it more and more as people are kind of opening up the way that they’re marketing to men.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Everything is ‘become an alpha’.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Everything good is now alpha.

Tucker:
With Axe body spray.

Jack:
Yeah. Everything is alpha, alpha, alpha, and it’s like it’s become ridiculous because it’s such a—A. I hate the idea that there’s a type like the alpha is a type, a fixed type. I think that what they’re really saying is they’re saying become more masculine. I mean, become more dominant, become more masculine, have more of these traits that I talked about in the way of men. And more strength, courage, mastery, and honor. But so many cases they’re just using it in this way that it almost is like this guy is always going to be alpha and this guy is always going to be beta. And that’s just not the case because it’s scalable. I mean, if you look, I mean, really like I can walk into a room and kind of be the big dog and I can walk into a room and definitely not, you know? And it just depends on the situation and then people–It becomes very confusing. It’s like are we talking about from like an evolutionary perspective because that’s one kind of alpha or are we talking like do we call Bill Gates an alpha because–

Tucker:
He has a lot of money.

Jack:
He can run a lot of people.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, but that doesn’t mean that he has the same qualities that we’re talking about in evolutionary terms.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
So, it becomes really frustrating and you see these guys selling it as the guy who makes the most money is alpha. And then I always say like so, Britney Spears is alpha? You know, because really it’s like if that’s what it’s about then like, you know, Beyonce can order a whole bunch of dudes around.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jack:
You know, because she has money but that doesn’t mean she’s alpha. You know what I mean? So, it’s really become this really messy, messy, messy term so I don’t know what you guys have to say about it. But that’s.

Tucker:
It’s almost exactly, I think, I would just repeat what you just said almost, yeah. I don’t know. Geoff, do you have a–?

Geoff:
Yeah, it’s kind of pretty diluted. I mean, you can overhear freshman saying ‘dude, your iPhone case is so alpha.’

Tucker:
That’s awesome.

Geoff:
Because it has skulls on it and it’s leather. Yeah, that alpha drop with the bass is whatever. I think you’re right Jack that it means basically become more masculine and it’s just kind of code words, a marketing code word for that.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Geoff:
Because in the feminist era it just sounds weird to pitch anything as become more masculine.

Tucker:
Right.

Geoff:
Like it’s almost insulting to young men whereas, all of them can go “Yeah, ok, I know I’m not very alpha”.

Tucker:
No, no, no. It’s not insulting to young men. It’s that if you pitch something as become more masculine you’re going to have to deal with a lot of people criticizing you. Either they’re not. You’re going to have to deal with either women or like sort of proto-women who are men but like all they, you know, like the feminist– You had a great name for them in your book, Jack. The dudes who put on the feminist veneer and are like ten times more vicious than feminist about sort of like – fuck I can’t remember what they’re called. But they, you know what I’m talking about. You guys know what I’m talking about. The guys who define themselves as feminists and like ‘I can’t believe you said that. That’s anti-feminist.’ Like shut the fuck up dude. What are you talking about?

Jack:
They’re just doing the moral display that we talked about.

Tucker:
Well, my problem, here’s my, the only thing I would add to what you guys said about alpha is whenever the 90% plus of the time I see it used especially online it’s by guys who are calling themselves alpha and it’s usually in “manosphere” spaces or pickup artists, someone in that sort of space. And they’re dudes who are so far from any definition of alpha ever in any way, shape, or form. It’s like guys that are like that like if a real alpha decided to come take their shit they would have nothing to say or do about it.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
They would roll the fuck over.

Jack:
‘Yes, sir!’

Tucker:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s like, it’s like, you know what? If you’re a bitch it’s okay to just be a bitch. That’s fine, whatever. You are what you are, right? But don’t call yourself an alpha when I, when you and I both know I can come take your shit right now and no one can stop me.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Like that’s like shut the fuck up. It’s like that’s so ridiculous.

Jack:
Absolutely. And that’s what. When I wrote The Way of Men, I have had a couple people come to me about this and kind of thank me for it. But when you’re worried about masculinity in the positive, you’re going to catch a lot of shit because basically people get offended like because they want, they assume that you’re saying that you are more masculine than they are.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know? If you’re saying about masculinity in positive they feel judged by it if they don’t seem themselves in the way it’s being described. And it’s really frustrating because like you talk to engineers and they want to tell you how being an engineer is the most masculine thing in the world, you know?

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Everybody does that. Philosophy professors want to talk about how being. They’re philosopher kings. Everybody wants to tell you why, you know, being an artists really rule the world. But, you know, I really try to come to it from a humble perspective. You know, in like the sense, no, I’m not trying to tell you that I’m the alpha. I’m just saying this is what it is.

Tucker:
Yes.

Jack:
You know, and that’s. I think a lot of people thought that that was refreshing about the book. And, you know, it’s like, you know, I’m not doing so bad. But, you know, at the same time, I’m not going to come to people and sell them. Because it is, like you said, they look like stuffed shirts at the end of the day.

Tucker:
Well, to me, here’s the thing. It’s like you want to talk about an alpha then talk about Genghis Khan or talk about Alexander the Great. And here’s the, I think Alexander the Great was an awful sociopath, whatever, right?

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
But the fact is the dude was a stone killer who commanded tens of thousands of men who did his bidding at the point of a fucking spear. And he could fuck anyone he wanted man or woman. He had total control over life or death over entire swaths of people. That is an alpha male.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And I don’t know of anyone alive right now who has that power. If you want to make an argument that Vladimir Putin is like that, then maybe you could. I don’t know. But like that is like, to me, in my mind Genghis Khan is sort of like the archetype of the alpha male. And I think I’m pretty awesome. I’m nothing approaching Genghis Khan. Like that’s ridiculous. I couldn’t be. None of us could be.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
There’s no possible way to.

Jack:
It’s not an option.

Tucker:
Right. It’s just not plausible, right? And, so, like that’s just it seems. If you want to say oh, you know, I’m the alpha of my, you know, gym or something because I’m the biggest guy, well, whatever. Okay, fine. But it’s like, yeah.

Jack:
It’s kind of dumb to even have to do that.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
It’s like saying you’re like ‘I’m part of the elite.’

Tucker:
The elite never say that.

Jack:
Someone else does that for you. You can kind of relax and, you know, like you get close enough to the top of the mountain, and kind of people let you know. And I feel like, like a lot of the readers I have like I get guys who write to me and I look at their Facebook profile and there’s this dude with like, you know, all kinds of military bling across his chest and whatever and has seen all this combat and done it. And I’m like ‘you’re better than me.’

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I’m glad that you’re reading my book. Wow! You know, I’ve had a bunch of guys who are like, you know, tactical firearms instructors and marital arts instructors and all these guys who’ve really, really actually more exemplify those characteristics that I talk about in the book than I do. And it’s always good to have some feedback from them. They said, you know, that they’re like. “No, I agree”.

Geoff:
One of the cool things that I thought in your book was that you point out there’s a lot of vested interest that try to define masculinity and what alpha is for young men in a way that’s in their interests, right? So, priests want you to sort of achieve manly status by conforming to the religious doctrines and purity and then, you know marketers think the way you become masculine is you buy a Ferrari.

Tucker:
You buy their stuff.

Jack:
Right.

Geoff:
You buy their shit, right?

Jack:
Exactly.

Geoff:
And captains of industry are like the way to be a man is, is be a good reliable hard-worker, right? Who doesn’t join a union.

Tucker:
Who makes me a bunch of money for my company, right?

Jack:
Yeah, yeah. He puts it back into it.

Geoff:
You know, I think that was cool that you sort of sketched out. Here’s some reasons to be skeptical.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
About other guys kind of selling you a definition of masculinity that’s not in your interests; it’s in their interests.

Jack:
You know, that, that and absolutely they have always have. Obviously, that’s gone on for all of human history. And also be skeptical of the people telling you, you know, that masculinity is outmoded or that it’s over and whatever. I mean, you hear that all the time. Man, I can Google search it right now.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
Like reimagine masculinity is like a thing.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
That’s the way they say it in newspapers. And it’s done over and over and over again. And you know, young men really need to question it because they’re getting these. A lot of time they have to watch these videos like ‘Tough Guys’ or ‘The Mask We Live In’ or whatever is going to be the new one. And, you know, they have these people selling these messages about what men kind of man they’re not supposed to be. And, again, they should ask, you know, for who? You know, like who wants me to be this way and why? Why do they want me to be more peaceful and more, you know, in a less masculine? Is it just women telling me how they want me to do what they say? You know, because I think in many cases that’s the case. You know, or just rich people telling you what, how you should behave so you don’t go to prison.

Tucker:
Or it’s people signaling their status to other people they care about and it’s not actually how they’re behaving in their real life or any number of other things.

Jack:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Tucker:
So, let me ask. One thing actually I’d really liked about your book. It was really, you didn’t talk about it much. Granted, like, you know, you can only talk about so much stuff. But it was almost a throwaway line I thought was brilliant. You said men can absolutely, and I’m paraphrasing this so please forgive me if I get it wrong. Men can be very caring and empathetic and any man who tells you different hates his father. Something like that, right? Right and but you don’t really talk about this that much in The Way of Men at least that I remember. But I feel like that’s the other side. One of the reasons, I think, in our culture a lot of people criticize masculinity or talk about new masculinity is it’s their way of saying that you can have feelings and emotions and care about people and be empathetic and still be very masculine, right? And, I mean, what do you think about that sort of idea?

Jack:
Well, I mean, a lot of the narratives that we see over and over again are these kind of recycled narratives that are left over from like the 50s and 60s where you had like kind of the, you know, baby boomer generation who had these stoic dads who had been to war.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And were kind of quiet and shut down and their John Wayne– You know, you still see people who refer to John Wayne. No millennial has ever watched a John Wayne movie. So, you know that they’re repeating stuff that they’ve heard. But, you know, so, you still see that narrative of like, you know, masculinity is bad because it means these shut down dads that don’t like us.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
That don’t talk to us or are mean to us and they’re closed off. And I don’t think that that’s necessarily the case. I think, a guy was actually telling me recently that in his Native American tribe that he comes from what happened was a lot of times the fathers would send their sons– It was a tradition for the fathers to send their sons to be raised by the uncles because the fathers were known to be too soft on their own sons and they wanted their sons to be hard so they sent them to live with the uncle so that they would harden them up. And so they’d be good enough to handle battle. Because men do like their own kids, generally, you know? They aren’t all monsters who just want to beat up their kids and whatever, you know? You know, and I think that that is part of being a man. I mean, you know, when we talk about masculinity and femininity we’re talking about these two big circles, you know, of things that are opposites but then there’s this big overlap that’s and then what’s in the middle is what’s human. And men have all the human stuff too, you know, but you know. To be able to deal with the stuff that men have had to deal with over history, part of our culture is to push away and to make sure that we can handle that, you know? You have to harden yourself up a little bit to be able to deal with some of the harder realities of life because that’s kind of always been our job. I mean, think of like, what police officers go through now. I mean, like we all sit around and get to just watch TV or do whatever it is that people do. And, you know, police officers go and see dead people on a regular basis and stuff that they need to be harder for. And that’s traditionally been the job of men is to have to deal with those harder realities of life. And, so, the culture of men has to do with, you know, shutting down a little bit. And, also, obviously, I think if anyone who understands men and their psychology and testosterone and all those things, it’s like we do have a little bit of a lower register as far as, you know, we have a lower range because we get really, really angry, you know, but not necessarily really, really hysterical or really, you know? There are things, you know, that different behaviors between men and women that are pitched at different levels.

Geoff:
It also seems like that to some degree feminism kind of got to redefine what good parenting is. As good parenting is what moms do.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Geoff:
And like looking back on my childhood, you know, my dad’s form of being a good dad was get up and go to work every day and bust your ass and make money to support your family, you know? Take me flying in his airplane and teach me like pilot shit, get me to help him restore vintage cars. And it’s not like the fathering was sit down talk about feelings.

Jack:
Right.

Geoff:
Right, it’s just do stuff together so that your kid can absorb skills.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
But I think feminism kind of defined that as being emotionally unavailable.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
And bad at communication and unempathetic and– So, I think a lot of young men now have the impression that their dads were fundamentally inadequate dads according to the definitions of parenting that feminism promotes.

Jack:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And the thing is that also women see men in the way that men interact with women. And, so, I think the narrative that comes from women about men in many ways has to do with their own reaction. I mean, I know that guys that will not shut up. You know, we always hear like men don’t talk enough. They don’t talk about their feelings. They don’t talk about their lives, whatever. They just don’t talk about them to women.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
You know, like that’s, so women have this idea of men that has to do with how men and women interact but if you talk to those guys. Once you get them started, you get their trust going they will talk, talk, talk your ear off. And a lot of those guys are like the guys who we would term as being alpha. You know, I have met some really imposing dudes who really want to talk to you about feelings.

Tucker:
Well, right. Once they feel safe and comfortable with you, right? I know exactly, God I know exactly what you’re talking about. For some reason, some of those dudes are like oh, yeah, Tucker, here let me tell you what I’m thinking. And I was like holy shit, dude, like don’t you have a girlfriend?

Jack:
They can’t talk. They know that the girlfriend is going to use that against them later and so, they want to talk to you about it.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
You know, in many cases, you know, women use that information and file it and then well, you’re always this way, you know? And, so, like men just want to have a conversation, you know?

Tucker:
So, what do you think – I don’t want to. This is sort of like one of those stupid questions that I get in interviews that I hate. But I don’t mean it quite this way. But what do you think the future of masculinity is? And what I mean by that question is where do you see… And obviously, you’re part of the group of people influencing this, you know? But how do you see men moving towards a way of, what are some trends or what do you think is going to happen in terms of men either rediscovering – I don’t know – Is rediscovering masculinity, reengaging masculinity, like what do you see happening over the next five to ten years, let’s say? Like how do you think it’s going to play out?

Jack:
Well, there’s, you know, how you think it’s going to play out and then how you want it to play out which are sometimes maybe not the same thing.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
But, you know, I mean, there’s really two ways I think that this can go. There’s the way that we become increasingly independent on technology and increasingly kind of really bred down in the sense of, you know, men, you create more laws, more aggressive men end up in jail and everybody else is the one doing, you know, the breeding. And you just have increasingly passive men. And I think that, you know, that’s kind of what’s happened over and over. And also, like with environmental chemicals and stuff like that. But, you know, you have this increasingly passive society of men with maybe, you know, this upper echelon of people who live differently. You know, whether they be the soldiers or maybe that comes from the elite who have a ton of money to spend. Oh, I’m going to go climb Everest. Where everybody else just works at Best Buy and says please and thank you.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know? And, you know, I think that there are many people who would like that to be the future. You know, kind of a thrall class of customer service representatives and then the rest of us. I mean, this kind of higher class of people who live better. That could happen, you know, obviously there will always be places in the world where there are unsettled people where masculinity survives in an older way. I think that, you know, a lot of these kinds of trends in bigger and bigger government and bigger, bigger oversight and everything are kind of unsustainable in a way. I would like to see a lot of that fall apart. And the way that kind of creates smaller systems. And I think smaller systems are better for men because you have more men who have more opportunities to do the kind of roles that men need to do. Rather than, you know, we outsource all of our hard work to other countries. You know, if you have more men who are farming around you and stuff like that they’re living kind of healthier lives for them and they’re getting more outlets for masculinity. You know, if you have more men who are farming, you know, more men who are hunting. You have more men who are hunting. You have more men who are involved in the defending of their community rather than outsourcing it to a guy, you know, military guys from the south. You know what I mean?

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
If you have more, if that’s closer to you, you have a more masculine society. So, I mean, I when I see succession movements I think that that’s really encouraging to me like, you know, Scotland’s, you know, talking about going from England. I mean, I think that that’s healthy. I’d like to see more smaller societies and hopefully that that happens. You know, I, whether it’s a prediction or not I can’t say.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
But that’s, if I’m pushing anything that’s kind of what I would wish for. I think it’s healthier for men. And what I’m encouraging men to do is kind of break off into their own groups and kind of do their own thing and kind of ignore the stupid stuff that we hear about, this outrage culture and the, you know, this media that’s really generated by very few people.

Tucker:
Yes. And it’s totally inconsequential. Unless you work for one of the major conglomerates that have to respond to this it doesn’t matter what they say or think.

Jack:
How, I mean, it’s so arbitrary. It’s like you have eight billion people in the world or whatever and then you, we’re supposed to care about this one today.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
You know, like, because someone said we’re supposed to care about this person today. This person who lives 3,000 miles away from you who is we’re all going to talk about today rather than your next door neighbor. You know, I think people should be more concerned with their next door neighbor. We’re all guilty of that, you know? But, you know, I think that’s what we should care about.

Tucker:
That’s, I totally know what you’re talking about. I’ve been a big believer in localization especially production of expensive inputs like food, energy, things like that for a long time. And I think, I think we’re going to be forced into that for any number of reasons whether you’re talking about environmental shifts, climate shifts, monetary shifts, government shifts, for any number of reasons. Whatever boogey man you think is coming one of them will be right.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And probably more than one. And usually the way you respond like cultures respond is by becoming not necessarily more insular but more localized in production because the only reason you want to dislocalize production is to achieve huge economies of scale which only makes sense in certain economic situations and circumstances. Here’s my question for you though. I totally get it and I think that does benefit men and a lot of ways I think it benefits women, too because what it does is give men and women agency back over their lives. And, so, femininity can explode, so can masculinity. They can interact in a healthier way. I totally get your line of thinking. My question to you and we kind of went over this. How can men, what can men do in their lives to start down that path? And I think you answered that partially by saying make friends, create social networks, and sort of start your own sort of groups, right? What are some other, are there any other ways you can think of or examples that you’re like man, this is the beginning of the future or this I’ve seen men do this and this is really rewarding to them or something like that? Like I can think of one example. I know of three– this isn’t quite on the lines of masculinity but general overall on the lines of what you’re talking about. I know four, four families who decided to get together and buy this huge, not huge, pretty big piece of property and they basically built four houses with, four separate houses with essentially one common room in the middle. And they farm, not huge farming operations but they basically have like small scale food production and like chickens and just a little bit of food and whatever all around. It’s like five, ten acres of land. And it’s multi-generation, each house. So, it’s like they don’t have to hire babysitters. They don’t, it’s like four families. They’ve known each other for years, decades. They get along great. So, it’s sort of like one family can’t live as cheaply as or two families can’t live as cheaply as one. But four can live as cheaply as like 2.5.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And, so, they’ve reduced their costs. They share wisdom and knowledge across generations. Men have a group now. Women have a group now. Like the women have their own group. The men have their own group but they all come together in a larger tribe. They don’t produce everything there. They’re not crazy people but they have a solar array and they have food so it’s like they’re spending 70% less on that stuff than they used to. These are normal people, they live like 10 miles away from me now. I hang out with some of them sometimes. But they have their own little mini unit. That’s sort of the example I’m thinking of in my head. Can you think of examples that are sort of like that or would you agree or what?

Jack:
Oh, that sounds great! I mean, I think that’s exactly the kind of things that people should be doing. I mean, I always joke about the Mormons. I mean, they’ve got that handled in many ways like they have tight communities. They have, they were preppers before it was cool.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
They have a lot of, they have their family. They have, there’s a lot of things going for them. You know, those guys are doing that. I mean, everybody likes to make fun of Portland, you know, because of all the local sustainable whatever stuff but I like it here because in many ways because of that.

Tucker:
Dude, I live in Austin which is the Portland of the south.

Jack:
Exactly.

Tucker:
I’m totally on board with you. Yeah.

Jack:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I do try and I try and buy local stuff. I mean, I do, I’ll pay the extra dollar for local eggs.

Tucker:
Especially because they’re better.

Jack:
I can’t afford it all the time but, you know, I try and do whatever I can because it’s, you know, I’d rather support local farmers than ones that are far away or work for Safeway Farms or whatever. And I’d rather support the guy down the street.

Tucker:
Right. And it’s also, it’s not just an ideology. I’m totally on board with you. It’s like, I buy Vital Farms eggs. I went to their farm. They’re like six miles away. I did like a dinner there like I met the dudes who, well they don’t make the eggs but collect the eggs, right?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Who raised the chickens. And by the way, they taste better and by the way, they’re better for you. No, totally, totally on board. Like another example I can think of is a buddy of mine’s a land developer. He’s thinking about buying this planned community that kind of failed, has a golf course and he wants to reposition it as sort of like the thing I was talking about where the golf course becomes a farm. And then everyone on either works the farm or you like buy credits and someone else can work the farm for you. Like even someone in the community. So, like someone’s full-time job is working the farm. And then like, like, let’s say I work somewhere else. I make way more money so he gets, he gets to work the farm for me. I pay him for that. Then I get a share of the food. You know what I’m saying?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Communities like that. It’s kind of funny. We’re talking about masculinity but then it’s also intricately tied with things like farming, animal husbandry, whatever. And a lot, I think for a lot of years these were not seen as masculine jobs. They were almost seen as low class jobs, but the world’s changed.

Jack:
Well, yeah, it’s so weird that they, you know, there’s a lot of things shifting in American culture right now in the sense of like what’s the right and left and ideas that are on both sides of whatever. And you used to have, for a long time masculinity was associated with being this weird kind of corporate sociopath Republican guy who wanted everything outsourced and, you know, like, and that doesn’t make any sense. Just because they were the war party they kind of became the masculine party, too.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
And whereas, and, you know, Democratic Party kind of set out to be the party of women so that’s also not good. But then you have the rest of us are kind of in the middle in the sense of like, you know, masculinity is not outsourcing everything to screw over everybody around you. And it’s not, you know, that’s taking away your opportunity to be masculine in many cases, you know? Like all these steel workers, you know, steel workers who no longer have a factory. All of a sudden, okay guys, and you know, China get to be masculine for you. You know, I mean, it’s important and I think more and more men are thinking about that and it’s not becoming this weird cut and dry thing that it was. Like, ‘What you don’t support high fructose corn syrup? You’re un-American’ You know what I mean? We’re getting past that. I think that’s really good. I think, you know, that it’s important for us to be, to think about it in those kinds of ways. And really look at these issues. And we’re talking about it in terms of like farmers and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that is, you’re building networks. It’s like when you’re talking to the egg guy and whatever. It’s like, all of a sudden, I mean, and I did the same thing. I was delivering for a local food company for a while. I was driving a truck for them around Portland and I’d go and meet the lady who started the cheese factory and go and see who makes the cheese and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, the more of that you can do the better. And you’re going to be better off because, you know, those are the kind of people who you have people to call. I mean, we’re kind of raised in the society where the idea is to go to college away from where you grew up and then move to wherever a job is where you have absolutely no social network whatsoever. And I‘ve moved around a bunch and you do, it does take at least a year and a half before you really have any grounding anywhere. But the, you know, I think, there was this great onion article about it a few years ago. Like local man who stayed near his high school, you know, has a disgustingly happy life, you know. It was kind of something like that, like, you know people who stayed in their communities and actually keep building these networks and they, you know, all of a sudden. Like I have these guys at the gym who are local and they already know guys who are running major companies and guys who are going to give them jobs and like they have these connections. And there’s a lot to be said for that, you know?

Geoff:
Yeah, I think, you know, the dominant American culture tries to give young men the impression that it doesn’t matter where you live.

Jack:
Yeah.

Geoff:
Because you can get Netflix anywhere, Amazon delivers anywhere. It’s all the same cable channels. But I think, it seems like one of your big points here and also
Tucker’s point is that it matters a lot where you choose to live or stay in terms of actual real face to face social networks and, you know, what the local mating market is like. And that stuff really matters. And making intelligent choices about that gives you huge leverage in terms of kind of life style and happiness and.

Tucker:
Well, I mean, because relationships are the key to– The relationships you have with the people you love and the work you do that matters to other people that’s, that’s what matters in life. Those are the two things, you know? And everything you just said, Geoff, is tied to that, you know?

Jack:
Exactly.

Geoff:
And, you know, when I spent a lot of time in Brooklyn, New York last year. And it’s easy to make fun of hipster guys but I thought at least they are reclaiming a certain kind of masculinity in a way that, that most guys in most cities don’t really have the guts to do. And I know Tucker’s giving me a look now but–

Tucker:
No, I can’t wait for the explanation about how Brooklyn hipsters are masculine. This is going to be great.

Geoff:
Because they, like they go to proper barbers and they make, they have male friends and they grow beards and they, they like to dress in a way that’s different from women and they’re not afraid to actually be pretty dominant. Like Brooklyn hipsters compared to typical Manhattan guys, metrosexual Manhattan guys, the Manhattanites are much more feminized. So, you might be hanging out with different hipsters than, you know, me and Hollister were hanging out with but.

Tucker:
Jack, what do you think of this, Jack?

Jack:
Well, coming from the other hipster capital of the world. I mean, it’s, I know what he’s saying in, I don’t know. I mean, I haven’t experienced the dominant part at all. But–

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
I mean, because see I actually delivered to a lot of downtown restaurants where like it’s like the quintessential hipster, you know, like kind of place. And in many cases, I would agree that a lot of those guys, you know, I’ve had some of the guys with the skinny jeans and whatever actually I talked to them for a while and all of a sudden they’ve read The Way of Men.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
And there are guys out there who are, they’re searching for something and they know that something is lost and a lot of them, you know. We all make fun of the little mustaches and you have their little beard things and you have, you know, they’re trying to do authentic crafting stuff. But they’re kind of reaching for something. In a way, you know, maybe in the same way that, you know, we talked about the pickup artist thing, in the way that, you know, it’s entry level to something. It could be something more. A buddy of mine, when I posted something like that about hipster masculinity or whatever he’s like ‘it’s not my job to take their hand, you know? And lead them.’ I’m like well, it’s kind of mine, you know, that’s kind of what I’m trying to do. Like you have men who are kind of lost and trying to find something and they don’t know what it is and if you can lead them along that path a little bit. Okay, maybe it starts with your hipster beard but maybe that takes you on a path to where you’re actually starting a farm somewhere or something like that. And that becomes a real thing and it doesn’t just become a consumer thing.

Tucker:
Yeah, I would definitely say the maker movement is very much an expression of men trying to find masculinity and finding it in craft and making things. So, to the extent that it overlaps with hipster culture, I get it. But like, their little finely tailored beard and their clothes. They’re getting that shit out of Esquire.

Jack:
The beards with the flowers, yeah.

Tucker:
Yeah, no get out of here with that shit.

Jack:
Yeah, there is a level where it just becomes another fashion.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
And then that’s just another consumer thing and it doesn’t really take us anywhere. But if it becomes a gateway to something else then, you know, I don’t feel the need to hate on it.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
You know?

Tucker:
I don’t hate.

Jack:
It’s so easy these days.

Tucker:
Yeah, right.

Jack:
It feels cheap.

Tucker:
Jack, you actually brought up a really good point. You know, this is sort of something, I guess I’ve been hinting at sort of my questions and it just kind of crystallized in my head. When I read The Way of Men, I thought it, really I truly thought it was insightful and it really gave me perspectives and ideas that like I just had not had. And this is on a topic I’ve thought a lot about, right? So, it’s not like oh, you taught me about particle physics. I don’t know shit about. It’s like you taught me shit I know about which like I said it just doesn’t happen much. But the thing that left me wanting. We kind of talked about it. I feel like there wasn’t much about women in there but I get it why and I get your explanation, whatever. But the thing that I thought was maybe the next step for it maybe. It shouldn’t be in that book but it should be the next step. Because what you just talked about is all these different groups of men are looking for something else, right? And as great as your book was it seems like the next step is – I don’t want to say defining a way to be masculine but maybe. I’m going to talk this out and it’ll be imprecise so forgive me. Like, like a step-by-step guide to figuring out how to be masculine in your own life or, or sort of like. Instead of creating your own identity where it’s like okay, this is the masculine identity because obviously you don’t want to fall into that because you can have a lot of different types of masculine identities. But something that’s like alright, you want more in your life. You want to be more masculine, then here’s the general way to think through this issue and apply it to your life to create the actions that then you can be more masculine from. Does this make sense? Do you know what I’m talking about?

Jack:
It does. I don’t know if we can do it in a formula like that. You know, like I said, I feel like it’s other men who. And that was kind of the point. I feel like it’s other men who make that happen.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
It’s like you’re interactions with other men that make that happen whether.

Tucker:
No, but that’s the thing. That’s why I keep pressing you. What are things guys can do?

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I’m not saying if you follow my steps you are then masculine. You’re not going to be handing out certifications of masculinity.

Jack:
Right, right, right.

Tucker:
It’s more like, okay, you need to get together with other men and you need to set your, you know, your sort of cultural sort of norms and your beliefs and whatever and then take risks and whatever. So, it’s more like here’s how to do it. It has to be done with other men so, obviously.

Jack:
Yes.

Tucker:
Part of that step is finding other dudes who agree with you. You know, like, it’s almost like The Way of Men and then part two is How to Form Your Own Gang or something. You know what I’m saying?

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
Does that make sense?

Jack:
Yeah, yeah. And it is it’s tricky. Like I’ve done some research and obviously, I went out to see The Wolves and I’m like how did you do it when I did a podcast with Paul. I’m like how did you start from seven guys and now all of a sudden you own land and you have this tribe and whatever. I mean, you have to do that and one thing I’ve been saying to a lot of different people is like these groups are all going to be different by their very nature.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
And, so, there’s no exact one kind of group.

Tucker:
But there’s always a meta formula. Even for things that are. Think about how different humans are, right? But we’re more the same than we are different.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
It’s much easier although if you don’t realize that it’s easy to look at everyone and be like oh, we’re so different. There’s no commonalities but then you’re like no, hold on. There’s actually tons of commonalities. So, like.

Jack:
Well, and plus that’s the tricky thing though. When you get into male tribalism you kind of have to let go of universalism in the sense of you have to kind of. Once you get far enough deep enough into the tribe, you get the tunnel vision where all of a sudden other people are really different. And then that becomes, that’s part of the thing.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
That happens in men’s heads. And we’re against that western philosophy, civilization. That’s a conflict but it is part of the game. It is part of masculinity. When you create the us and them you do kind of de-humanize other people to a certain degree. And that’s why people hate it and that’s why they think it’s dangerous and whatever. But when you become the point where you care more about these ten guys than anyone else then other people become kind of caricatures.

Tucker:
I guess–

Jack:
It’s tribalism, right?

Tucker:
Right, right. Well, the goal is to have that group or tribe or I think gang that you really do care about. That makes your life richer and actually you live longer. You’ve read the Power of Clan, right? I think you’ve referenced it.

Jack:
I don’t think so, no.

Tucker:
You should read The Power of Clan is like this longitudinal medical.

Jack:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had it on wish list.

Tucker:
Right. No, you really should. It’s a fantastic book where like people literally live longer if they’re in clans or gangs sort of like what you’re talking about. It’s really good. But, so, I get that but then also keep the other sort of contradictory idea in your head that other tribes are just like us even though we define them differently and we think we’re better and I love my ten guys more than anyone. And our tribe, they’re the same with their group. Because if you can balance those two ideas, you can get all the benefits of gang and tribe without having to fucking go to war and just destroy shit and risk being killed, you know, yourself.

Jack:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I mean loosely. But I’m just saying like that would be awesome. The next step, I think, for you or for the thought in this world is like. I mean it’s sort of like. It’s what Geoff and I are trying to do is teach guys how to understand women, how to understand themselves, and how to deal with it but we’re sort of working, I think, in a little bit more of a bounded space than you are. You’re more like here’s how to be masculine. We’re dealing more with like how to engage women and how to like do better with women and how to have good relationships and whatever. But in a lot of ways, like, Geoff kind of made the point earlier, 80% of it is still the same, you know? It’s foundational. The foundation, all the fundamentals are almost all the same.

Jack:
Right.

Tucker:
But like, I think that not only would that book do well but that system of thought. If you can figure out a way where it’s like okay, here’s the ten steps that all gangs take and each step may look very, very different in your life but these are sort of the ten steps. I never talk about Joseph Campbell and I brought him up fucking eight times in this podcast. But just like the, you know, the Hero’s Journey, like all stories have like the same seven steps even though they all look totally different, it’s the same flow. I think, the Hero’s Journey for masculinity, if you could do that that would be amazing, you know? And that feels like the next step to me. I could be totally full of shit and talking out of my ass, dude, so.

Jack:
No, that’s an interesting idea. I mean, I’m sure that there is an actual like tribal formation.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Like formula.

Tucker:
Right like what are the universal rules? My guess is it’s in your head. You just haven’t thought of it that way.

Jack:
I mean, probably. I mean, obviously, the localism that we’ve talked about.

Tucker:
Right.

Jack:
Like the local interests, the shared interests, you know, all that kind of stuff. I mean I probably hinted at it in different things.

Tucker:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack:
It might not be a book. It might just be a like, my ultimate list post.

Tucker:
Right, right.

Jack:
My list of like ten things.

Tucker:
Yeah, yeah.

Jack:
Yeah, who knows? Maybe I’ll think about that. I’m always trying to figure out what to write because now part of my thing is pulling out of modern society as much as I would like to in terms of like that dialogue that we talked about. Like, you know, if you don’t care about the news cycle then what do you write about.

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jack:
It’s hard to think about things to write about then. Like if you stop reacting to what.

Tucker:
To all the bullshit.

Jack:
Yeah and then it’s like I’m not really angry about anything anymore. What do I write about?

Tucker:
Well, dude, the shit that moves the world doesn’t have to be long. Ten commandments, 95 theses, doesn’t have to be long, brother.

Jack:
Alright.

Tucker:
Alright. It’s been we’ve taken way too much of your time. It’s been fantastic talking to you. Thank you very much, man. This was a great interview.

Geoff:
Yeah, thanks a lot Jack.

Jack:
Yeah, good to talk to you.

Tucker:
Definitely, man. See you guys later.