Cameron's Referendum

Taking sides in this is splitting hairs, the bosses are going to find new ways to fuck us over as hard or worse. Also the main people who talk about EU being some big scary group of nation states with fascist tendencies is are ukip and other right wingers.

Exactly. This referendum offers nothing to working people: all we can do is fight for our own material interests against bosses and governments of all nationalities.

That said, it's amusing political theatre, especially seeing the Tories tear themselves apart over it. It is funny to see them argue amongst themselves over it, as while they like big business, they don't like foreigners. Quite a conundrum for them…

If the UK vote to leave, do you think EU nationals doing low paid, unskilled work will be granted appropriate visas?

I think if we vote to leave, we would instead join the EEA, so basically the situation will be completely unchanged, so EU rules would still apply, but the British government would have no say in them any more (like Switzerland for example)

Surely anti-EU politics among the Tories, UKIP and daily mail readers has a central racist component to them? Particularly directed against Eastern European migrants.

Cameron is trying to use the vote as a leverage for renegotiating the terms of the UK's continued membership. If they want something out of it, it is curtailing migration to the UK and exceptions to EU human rights provisions on freedom of movement and maybe union legislation as well. It's not a conservative campaign for the right to eat curved bananas but something much more sinister.

Am I wrong on this?

I'd probably vote to stay in if I were in the UK.
The EU seems that it's a better deal to me. Fun watching the Tory bloodbath, don't give a fuck about labour but always happy to see the Tories have a problem.

Where I am, in East Anglia, people round me are not fascist though many are xenophobic.

If I do vote I’ll vote to stay in, as the Scot nationalists are secretly hoping there is an ‘out’ vote and then their band waggon can roll again. So it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other.

A vote for either camp is a vote for capitalism, that really is all there is to it.

I believe you Steven, but do you have a link?

TBH not seen that much about it recently. There were some articles a few years ago, like this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9383678/Is-Norways-EU-example-really-an-option-for-Britain.html

edited to add, there were some good discussion about this last year here: https://libcom.org/blog/should-we-care-about-eu-referendum-01062015

^^Tsiprasism.

I am absolutelty amazed that anyone here has a different view to this, yet we have 2 down votes. I mean, WTF?
Anyways, since(incredibly) people are talking about voting(???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I'll put my X against Croydonian.

I forgot the anarchist commandment, 'Thou shall not vote'. But then, I've never been religious.

You forgot the "and pro-capitalist " bit.

Burgers #15

You're too clever for me. Tell me about tactics and capitalism.

leaving with a Tory government will mean we will lose what little rights we have. Our local rulers would be able to bring back the death penalty and cut off our water if we didn't pay our water bills for example. We will also lose the human rights act, which will be replaced with a British 'bill of rights'. Which means no rights. Certainly we would lose the Health and Safety legislation we have and some workers rights.Though there is many problems with the EU , it is better to stick with it rather than leave with a Tory government. I'm voting to stay.

Did you vote in the general election? Just asking.

Did you have some kind of contribution to the discussion, beyond "(???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)"? Just asking.

Yes, I should think I do, but a bit of time to gather my thoughts, find out about and consider other people's position should be afforded me, should it not?
However, I'm very flattered that you're so desperate to hear my opinion. If you like you could pm me your address and I'll send you it written in calligraphy on sepia parchment along with a signed photograph.

Alright, fine. From the style of your two posts I assumed that you were just looking for a chance to start calling people liberal. I'm sorry if I offended you If you actually had a valid reason for asking that.

Errr, I think you misunderstand basic anarchism. It's not that anarchists have some irrational phobia of putting crosses on pieces of paper etc - anarchists are opposed to representative politics and to the strategy of grabbing state power via the means of political parties. And anarchists are generally in favour of more direct forms of democracy, and the referendum arguably would fall under that, though of course the present referendum on the EU doesn't have anything to offer anarchists.

Local bosses? The rule of capital is international and will have to be combatted internationally - EU or no EU.

And, yes, the EU is super neo-liberal, but freedom of movement within the EU is pretty damn nice. Of course a vote for the EU is a vote for capitalism but I'd rather have a capitalism with freedom of movement and 26 paid vacation days...

EDIT: or visa-less travel, if we don't want to use the boss' terminology.

Sharkfinn, no need to apologise, I wasn't offended, just making a point and being a bit playful.
My first post was a gut reaction abhorrence at the idea of comrades partaking in the sham of capitalist created delusions of us creating our own democracy. Then, having seen Auld Bod's and Red and Black's posts thought I'd shut my trap for a bit and listen.
I kind of accept the points being made to some degree - Chilli's is the strongest - but then similar arguments can be made for voting Labour. I'm far from convinced but I'll keep an eye on the thread before making my mind up for certain.

Ouch! Now that's a bit harsh. Still No1, it seems you think I'm full of No2s so I won't challenge you on this.

You're wrong there fella. The Human Rights Act has got nothing to do with the EU but is based on the European Convention on Human Rights, a totally different kettle of fish.

For the record, I'm not voting either as it's a choice between two capitalist factions: pro EU capitalist shite or (for now) rightwing little England bigoted shite. Mind you, empoyment rights are marginally better in the EU (e.g. part-time workers' [prevention of less favourable treatment] directive - which I personally benefit from as a part time worker)... ooh... decisions decisions...

Nah, fuck 'em. We reap what we sow. If we aren't prepared to rise up against these toffee-nosed cunts, then it's hard fucking lines for us.

No doubt no1 will be sending Cameron a thank you letter for giving us anarchist direct democracy.

However there is a more serious issue, a vote for the EU is a for Fortress Europe, war on migration (but as long as chilli doesn't have to use a visa who cares about them) , EU war on terrorism, EU Austerity (anyone remember Greece and still ongoing), the war in Ukraine and the list is endless.

double post

Burgers #27:

‘No doubt no1 will be sending Cameron a thank you letter for giving us anarchist direct democracy.
However there is a more serious issue, a vote for the EU is a for Fortress Europe, war on migration (but as long as chilli doesn't have to use a visa who cares about them), EU war on terrorism, EU Austerity (anyone remember Greece and still ongoing), the war in Ukraine and the list is endless.’

What supercilious tripe. Strawman after strawman.

If this is your ‘more serious’ contribution then Cameron and co. have nothing to fear. And if you’re a ‘Left Communist’ as you claim, why do you give a flying f**k what some anarchists think?

I though it was "a vote for capitalism", for which the leaving vote is also for. Make up your mind. Seriously though, the issue freedom of movement is a central point. Defense of which should be among the central issues for communist. "Vote for the EU is a vote for a Fortress Europe" is nonsense. Britain staying in Europe does nothing to Frontex. If Cameron however manages to renegotiate the terms of freedom of movement for Britain that would probably have a lot of political spill over in the rest of the EU. Frontex doesn't just patrol the EUs border, in fact that happens in partnership with countries outside the EU through agreements between the EU and its neighboring countries. Which would be unaffected whether or not Britain leaves the EU.

Our movement within the EU is free but constantly monitored. Change into a Fortress Europe with also internal walls could happen fairly quickly thanks to already existing illegality industry around migration. What I'm afraid of is that a high vote for leaving would be a watershed moment towards this development.

Oh dear, looks like as per usual as soon as some real-life situation comes along some anarchists ditch their principles and try to be "pragmatic".

People saying they would vote to stay might as well be saying they are voting for TTIP (i.e. the enforced privatisation of everything) which the EU will be bringing in.

The question asked by Noah was entirely valid. If you say we shouldn't support either type of government (e.g. Conservative or Labour), and you say we shouldn't support either type of government in a war (e.g. Iraqi or American) then how can you say we should take sides between Brussels and Westminster? It's entirely illogical.

You would think that the fact that the campaign to stay in is being led by David Cameron might lead some people to question it at least…