Internet feminism hurt my feelings, but then I got up offa that thang

Right on. You cannot know until you know. Then you work with the knowledge you have until it’s time to acquire some more. Keep blaming!

I think this is the first post you’ve ever written that’s really just about your feelings. I really liked it.

I feel the same way. I’ve lived many times in areas and once a whole country- where I was the only white person around.. and I can say that even though global racism as a force is mainly a white thing, because white people have most of the power- people of any color and gender are capable of hate that’s based just on someone being different. And yes, there is a lot of meanness directed at white women by women of other colors, probably out of a sense of inferiority that they get from being told by the world that white women are better, which isn’t true, but it just comes out as jealousy and rage at white women. IBTP.

Within feminism, I get really bored of women of color (and no, I don’t give a shit what is going to be directed at me because of this statement, I have just as much self respect as you so don’t fuck with me) who spend their time just being mean to white women. It sucks and is lame. If you really have no other objective than to make well intentioned white women feel bad, you suck. Yeah, white women grow up with a lot of privilege and it makes it hard for them to see things, and many choose not to and are really really lame and also racist. HOWEVER. There are some white women, white feminists, who are nice people and care about others and don’t care what color you are, they want people to be free of oppression, whether it be racism or sexism. Twisty, I see you as one of these people.

I don’t think that anyone should feel bad or feel guilt because of the privilege they grow up with. If you are using the privilege that you couldn’t help being born with to make a statement for the good of everyone, then you’re doing the best you can. That goes for men. If a guy is not actively participating in porn, or prostituting, or hitting women, or making sexist statements, is kind and doesn’t try to control women, and speaks out against injustice against them, I don’t have a problem with him. That’s the difference between hate, (or “reverse” racism) and a desire for freedom and equality. I’m not interested in making men feel bad, I don’t hate men. I want people to evolve out of dominance and cruelty-based social systems. And there is a marked difference between someone advocating for an end to racism, who is able to not hate white people, but hate racism and racist behavior, and people who just want to spread toxicity. This difference is something we are ALL capable of pulling off, and capable of failing at.

I think you should keep saying what the fuck you want to, Twisty. If they don’t like it, fuck em. Whoever they are. Your heart is in the right place and you’re a loving person. Not even your highly advanced sarcasm can mask that.

Hugs and love.

I appreciate your intent here, but the call-out culture is much more toxic than you make it seem. For example, feminists who are critical of the sex industry are routinely smeared and attacked by other feminists. Sex industry critical feminists are “called out” by other feminists for being the real oppressors of women (men are never mentioned). So should feminists who are critical of pornography and the sex trade just shut up after masses of feminists online criticize them? Underlying your argument is the assumption that those calling out and criticizing are well-intentioned and that they stand on a moral high ground. The situation is much more complex and toxic than that. For one thing, there is a concerted effort online to silence feminists with more radical views.

Thanks Twisty. Commenting on your last post made me so nervous that I never went back to it because I was worried there would be posts like Ashley’s up above calling me a nitpicker. I’m glad my tone came through and you knew I wasn’t trying to scold you or be hostile. I really appreciate what you do and what you write, and I hope you know that in terms of feeling chagrined I’ve been challenged a lot by your posts and I think out of the two of us you’re winning. :)

Quite right Twisty.

@Ashley, I (a white cis woman) have been working hard reading, following (on Twitter and blogs), and listening to WOC feminists for some time, and I have yet to experience WOC being “mean” to white women for no reason. They’ve certainly shown a lot of courage and persistence in calling white women on their privilege and racist bullshit. But the many I’ve met are good people and good friends. I suggest you read Twisty’s post again vis a vis “hurt feelings” and “white tears”.

@YM, similarly, I have been educated extremely well by my interactions with, readings about, followings of, and connections with feminists who work in (or have previously worked in) the sex industry. What is being done to women (and men) in the sex industry is horrendous and there are many forces cranking it up to keep making things worse and worse for sex workers just to survive. If feminists are being called out by actual sex workers about their treatment of them and their ally-ship with the religious right and rightwing politicos, they should practice the basic values of feminism: listening to the voices of women and being led by those affected by that particular oppression.

In short “nothing about us without us” includes WOC and women in the sex industry.

In my own journey (similar to Twisty’s described here), as a 48-year-old lifelong feminist, I have never come closer to disavowing the label “feminist” than in the past two years of really engaging with and understanding the struggles of women and others with less privilege than mine. I am disgusted by white supremacism, particularly as it manifests within white feminism, and I am disgusted by the treatment of sex workers by vast swathes of feminism (not to mention the issue of trans women and feminism, something I’ve been aware of for longer). It is simply the ongoing fighters of intersectionality, and the new generation of feminists I am lucky to be acquainted with where I live, that keep me hanging in there: I want nothing more than to keep the name “feminism” for the good fight I can get behind.

This is a tough one but I like your approach. I think anything that can broaden our understanding and empathy for others will be a force for good in the world, which is pretty much all I’m interested in at this point. I’ve been a feminist for several decades, and I’ve seen trends and buzzwords come and go. The trend now seems to involve analyzing different aspects of feminism and intersectionality and while it seems to devolve sometimes to lobsters pulling each other back down into the pot, it’s totally necessary.

One thing that I find personally is that I am so worried about doing it wrong that I don’t speak up as much as I should. It can be paralyzing to try to be perfect and I don’t have the academic background to know the right terminology. No one is obligated to play nice so the poor privileged people are comfortable, that’s not what I mean. But I do find myself second-third-fourth guessing myself until I decide it’s safer to keep quiet.

For example I helped start/run a community program for girls, as a volunteer. It is popular but not diverse enough. We volunteers are attempting to improve this ASAP, but we don’t have the professional know how/aren’t sure of the right approach/are doing this for free in our spare time. I believe that building something and working at it to make it better as you go is far better than doing nothing because you’re afraid of missteps. I would hate to think that being afraid of being called out stops people from sticking their necks out, running for office etc.

I think well-intentioned men likely do this with us too, because we tend to pile on them if they say something oblivious. (Note: I don’t often give a f**, I’m just saying.)

Ultimately we all have to coexist and I think it’s best to try to understand each other. I feel I can relate to both oppressed and oppressor classes, and hopefully I can use that insight to actually enact positive social change however small.

Within feminism, I get really bored of women of color (and no, I don’t give a shit what is going to be directed at me because of this statement, I have just as much self respect as you so don’t fuck with me) who spend their time just being mean to white women.

I highly doubt that any women of colour are just hanging out being mean to white women for no reason. I would bet the incidence of this occurring is right around zero. However, there are a lot of women of colour who are enraged at how white women erase racism. I hope you don’t have so much “self-respect” that you cannot listen to the reasons women of colour are angry.

I appreciate your intent here, but the call-out culture is much more toxic than you make it seem. For example, feminists who are critical of the sex industry are routinely smeared and attacked by other feminists. Sex industry critical feminists are “called out” by other feminists for being the real oppressors of women (men are never mentioned)

This situation has been bothering me for a long time. I’ve been kicked off an entire blog and I’ve had to leave a Facebook group because I dared to realize that prostitution isn’t a fun, liberating profession. I worry all the time that one of my real-life friends will one day turn out to be one of those sex-poz people who call me “whorephobic” just for stating facts. But there’s a difference between calling out someone’s real prejudices/ignorance and “calling out” someone for the crime of not believing a lie. It is an embiggening experience to realize how you have been erasing the lived experiences of people who face oppressions that you do not. However, when person A says that prostitution is violence against women and person B starts hashtagging “whorephobia” and other nonsense as a response, nothing is gained. Prostitution is violence against women; and comments that pretend otherwise should be regarded as they are: antifeminism. The sex-pozzies can try and argue all they want, but when it comes down to it, their argument amounts to “Women should have the choice to be degraded and abused and we should respect that choice.” That just doesn’t make any sense and it cannot be taken seriously. The people who hate women in prostitution are not radical feminists, they are punters and johns.

@ Bushfire: I’m not going to go into detail, but IRL I’ve had an experience or two where yes, I’ve had a person or two be nasty when it was totally unjustified. This has also happened to a friend who lived in a group home as a teenager and unfortunately made her more prejudiced as a result. If a person is angry, s/he doesn’t always react constructively, regardless of any privilege or marginalization.

Of course the vast majority of the time, privileged folks don’t recognize their privilege and piss it all over everybody else. (And even if someone takes out his/her anger on someone who doesn’t ask for it, that topic is a derail anyway because the whole point of this discussion is to address how we need to stop erasing others’ experiences and statuses).

Wow. That was great right up until the white feminism comments on how woc are just jealous. Or mean.

Too much navel-gazing? That seems to be the only way to “get it.” If you aren’t willing to look inward first, you can’t really do much truly useful outwardly. For me, avoiding a sort of “one size fits all” ideology where you find the “one true way” to view everything and then go out to force it onto everyone else is just patriarchy/religion. I have to take the view that whatever I think now could be wrong, and try not to be an overbearing asshole who stops thinking. Isn’t fighting patriarchy fighting assholism in all it’s forms?

The problem I have with the idea that every time someone says “lived experience” everyone else has to cease critical thought or at least shut up about it is the abusive family dynamic, i.e. total denial of abuse so that people can keep living “nice” lives. Women, politically and academically savvy women even, may prefer total blackout-drunk style denial of horrible shit right in their laps to really dealing, and that’s fine, but I don’t have to FOLLOW THE FUCKING RULES OR GET THE FUCK OUT OF FUCKING FEMINISM because they don’t like the implications of some other feminist’s viewpoint in their own life.

“use their hurt feelings as a privilege clue”

Well this hit home.

Has anyone else had this said against them by an angry dude “All you go on about is women and women’s issues, you never talk about racism or class-based oppression – you’re selfish and you only give a shit about what you were born into!”
?

Rae – if you actually paid attention to any of the other progressive movements, you’d find that a big, BIG criticism of them is that the Liberal Dudes involved regularly indulge in and dismiss everything from casual sexism to heinous misogyny, including sexual assault. “Women’s issues” don’t affect them, therefore they get in the way of the Grand Plan. Sort of like what you’re saying when you bleat about how unfair it is that we have to be inclusive when no one else bothers. Nice infantilising of other women when you complain about having to be everyone’s mommy. I simply can’t imagine why those mean old black women won’t give us a break.

@Rae – Great comment.

I believe that the finger pointing obscures the issues entirely. It’s another diversion tactic IMO. I understand that inclusion is important, but constantly berating one another because we didn’t use appropriate language seems a little petty to me.

Wait a sec, Twisty is human? (Insert happy face emoticon.)
“3. Blamers should make as many jokes as possible.”- see Guidelines.

Understanding privilege is absolutely essential to the success of feminism. That’s non-negotiable. No question. Rights are for everybody. Otherwise they’re not rights.

And, of course, it’s much easier to shame women into silence when we attempt to hold our ground, than it is to do the same to men. Men dismiss criticisms, dismiss the charge of being oppressive, with ridicule or they become belligerent with their real power; but for women, whose ability to be assertive is hampered by femininity mandates, the charge of oppression can unfairly mess with our hearts and minds. Another yes. And a very important point, too.

I sometimes have a knee-jerk reaction to the word “privilege.” I feel like the word has been tossed around so much that it’s almost lost its meaning. Yeah, me too! Sometimes it feels like it’s been tossed around so much that people should be checking their privilege to use it.

And, yes, also this: “[Other groups] are not flooding their every blog or meeting with “What About The Women?” This. I don’t know what you do about it. Women as a group seem to have a clearer understanding of rights and to know everybody has to be included. So what’s up with us not being a priority for everybody else? Or, actually, anybody else? There’s a problem there. Especially since a big part of any group, except men, is women.

Okay, this is turning into a book, but I’m still full of comments.

Rights are going to conflict sometimes. In some cases, some rights may need attention more than others. Those situations have to be recognized, or else it becomes an exercise in telling one group to shut up.

An couple of examples from this very blog. A while ago, Twisty posted a pretty funny gallows humor clip of a standup comedian talking about her fear of being raped by a black man who was using her fear of being racist to try to push her buttons. The discussion on this blog was mostly about how bad it was to insult him with stereotypes. Stereotypes and insults are bad. Absolutely. Objectively, fear of sexual torture, physical harm, and possibly death are worse. Pretend we’re not talking about a woman, if that helps. You’re a gay guy in a dive bar in Arkansas, and things are looking ugly, but you make a crude redneck joke. Sure, he could make some other joke, and it would probably be even funnier without taking the low easy road, but the insult is not the worst thing happening here. I think it’s important to value ourselves highly enough to see that. Feeling that you have the same right to live without fear as everybody else is not the same as being privileged.

Or the recent discussion about Seinfeld. Nowhere, in not one single thing, does the fact that he’s Jewish have anything to do with the post. It’s about him saying he doesn’t care about all this gender, race, diversity stuff. To the extent that he felt antisemitism, he isn’t making it part of his point and he seems fairly determined not to learn anything from it. So antisemitism isn’t part of that discussion. (I’m not saying it’s never part of any discussion. I’m saying it’s off-topic for that one.) So why bring it up? That seems to do nothing but change the subject from the misogyny of the rich and powerful to antisemitism. Concentrating on feminism in a feminist blog, not to the exclusion of others’ rights but standing up for one’s own, is not antisemitic.

What pheenobarbidol said. Also, it really is worth re-reading “Black Feminist Thought” if it’s been a few years.

That comedian wasn’t insulting the guy with stereotypes; she launched into a “black woman” shtick when describing what she could have said to him. “I could get raped on the brownline, okay, that’s where all the white people is, Stank-ass shit,” etc. “Twisty” posted the video under the heading “Women Aren’t Funny,” clearly implying that this woman WAS, but she backed away immediately once people started complaining about it.

That sounds an awful lot like why isn’t there a white history month. When woc discuss their experiences, they ARE reciprocating. Because our experiences as woc are feminist topics. Because we’re women. The reason, for what it’s worth, that the comedy clip was so offensive is because black men were/are actually killed over the stereotype of being white women’s rapists. They are wrongly accused, wrongfully imprisoned, and assaulted over it. So no, jokes about it aren’t funny. They perpetuate real harm, to real people. That harm includes torture in prison, sexual torture in prison and even possible death, and that can happen after being pulled over for ” matching the description”. Not quite just a bad thing, or just a stereotype when you consider real world consequences.

Wow. Great discussion. Thank you Twisty, and all you Blamers.
Checking my priviledge,
Now.

Criminy! It’s been ten years. It has.
The latest in the Tumblr world is the need to include incel men in feminism if one wanted to be truly intersectional feminists. Incel stands for involuntary celibate.

Hey Twisty! Thanks for replying.
I totally get that consciousness raising is an essential element – but didn’t the radicals reach the point in the 80’s where they realized it had limited scope for social change?

I suppose that is my frustration – the navel gazing. That and the fact that it causes liberals and radicals to constantly butt heads rather than unify on the issues where we have common ground. I do completely acknowledge however that if women make advances we HAVE to ensure that we do not pull the ladder up from beneath us and consciousness raising is a measure against that.

TLDR: A little less conversation a little more action.

To me, privilege check among feminists is fine, as long as it doesn’t take your off the ball – which is really about evening up the gross power imbalance across the genders.

As a struggle for justice, feminism is unique, because of its universality. Women occupy 50% of all classes, races, religions, nationalities, majorities and minorities. And in all of those groupings women are, without exception, the ‘inferior’ or sub-gender that has to abide mainly by men’s rules.

As a human being, I can and do empathize with other social justice struggles and oppressed groups. But as a feminist, I won’t pardon attitudes and behaviors from anyone, male or female, oppressed or privileged, that keep women entrenched as a sub-gender.

Some of you people need to read Ain’t I a Woman Too and apply that to your thoughts. Woc aren’t other oppressed groups. We’re women.

I second Pregnant Pause’s comments that “I am so worried about doing it wrong that I don’t speak up as much as I should. I….I don’t have the academic background [or work place] to know the right terminology. No one is obligated to play nice so the poor privileged people are comfortable, that’s not what I mean. … I decide it’s safer to keep quiet.”

I’m here to learn. I’ve got tonnes of stuff going on in my life and can’t devote huge amounts of time to getting it all right at once. But I’m trying, and IBTP is the best place I’ve found for regular, quick updates before descending back into the maelstrom.

A couple of times, both here and elsewhere, when I’ve raised something I’ve wanted to hear a radical viewpoint on, I’ve felt flogged, and humiliated – just like I was at home by my father. I understand that this is for advanced blamers, but I do think that sometimes the tone here, and other feminist spaces I’ve checked out, don’t create a safe space.

Whilst “soothing and caretaking and attending to everybody’s feelings and needs” might not be appropriate at all times (for example where clear examples of thoughtless privilege are being wielded, or an oppressed person is totally exasperated from centuries of oppression) surely in some spaces those who are more across the issue could try to assume good faith and be temperate? Even encouraging?

I have been a meat-space and Internet Feminist forever…since 1973, and the invention of the Internet by Al Gore, respectively!

I have seen these internetian battles and studied them for years. Intersectionality is crucial and it is important to not be a dick to any other women.

Here are a couple of things I have observed, however:

1. Men, as a group, give barely a shit when called out on their dominance and love of oppression. For the most part not only do they not care, they love being dominant and think they should be MORE dominant because the P tells them they are losers if they aren’t. They objections of the oppressed really are falling on deaf ears with men, for the most part.

2. This is very frustrating, and more frustrating as you go deeper into the oppression.

3. This frustration has the effect, sometimes, of causing the oppressed to turn on one another.

4. Big Win for the P !

Naturally, this is an outcome we want to avoid; it is nothing but heartbreaking when Feminists rip each other to shreds. Which additionally gives the men the fun of the spectacle, AND proof that we are a bunch of cats, cat-fighting, and probably our brains really ARE the size of walnuts, and clearly a better use of our time would be making sandwiches for them.

We should really try to NOT engage in divisive infighting, really if for no other reason than that they love it so much! Because BARF

Yet, it is crucial to embiggen our collective outlook and raise our consciousnesses. It is important to listen to one another! But is it actually true that in order to include different perspectives, there must be “calling out” and hostility? Well, maybe it does need to be that way, sometimes. But perhaps women who are less privileged wouldn’t need to be hostile if the more privileged would listen in the first place.

So, yeah, LISTEN.

Secondly, I think there needs to be an acknowledged divide between writing or saying or DOING something bigoted toward a marginalized group, ACTIVELY, and the mere failing to mention them specifically in a statement. I cannot tell you the number of times exchanges happen like this:

A: “It is up to us women to smash the Patriarchy!”
B: “You did not specifically mention the sub-group of women to which I belong and therefore you, A, are a terrible person and not a real feminist and I feel othered and not included to the Patriarchy-smashing, so I’m not coming.”

I have pretty much had it with the “I did not get specifically mentioned” thing. While it may not ALWAYS be an outlet for someone spoiling for a little infighting, I do think it is a sign that the writer has lost sight of the big picture.

In other words: the rules might be good, but it also might be the they are just TOO MUCH and TOO HARD for most human women to follow.

In other words: the rules might be good, but it also might be the they are just TOO MUCH and TOO HARD for most human women to follow.

Actually, they’re really not, once you learn what they are.

It’s more the response to being taught that’s the problem, and it’s disheartening that feminists don’t get this. Don’t we all know how fucking frustrating it is to see yet another clueless jackass engage in casual sexism, or overlook women? Haven’t we all had it up to here and been fresh out of nice words to call him on his bullshit? Don’t we all know how absolutely ragemaking it is for said clueless jackass to clutch his pearls and lecture us on our tone and how wounded his feelings are and good job we just lost ourselves an ally and how dare we, he’s a good man who’s never had a sexist thought, we’re just being petty and fingerpointing instead of being grateful for his help?

See? Right there? I committed and infraction by using “sucks” in the wrong way. I clearly hate women and gay men and sex and fun and sex workers (no such thing as a prostitute!) and popsicles and I probably love Rush Limbaugh, too!

I’m sorry that having to use the term “sex workers” is onerous for you. Have you tried asking sex workers what term they’d rather you use?

Look, I was scraping a peanut butter jar for something to eat today, OK? (I got some food, thanks for caring peeps) And I have a whole lot of other shit going on on top of it, like REAL shit, OK? I forgot to type prostitutED instead of prostitute, OK? But do you NOT get how this hall monitor shit gets out of control? You think a John who wants to beat little girls and women is going to change his mind if we say “sex worker” at all times? It’s not enough. It. Is. Not. Enough. We can all have perfect language, be perfectly inclusive, in EVERY single instance of every utterance, and STILL get raped and murdered and paid less, or starve to death because old women aren’t fuckable, etc. My big fucking concern in life is not whether every woman is always validated (in public of course!) for her so-called sexuality, and this is NOT ALLOWED in most feminist spaces and it is a big deal to my being able to just LIVE and I’m sick of not being able to say it in supposed feminist places and yes, I do see a lot of women saying something similar in regards to the ways that supposed “inclusivity” is used as a guise to chase out women who talk about this big taboo and divide in feminism today.

Then again, there is such a thing as pointing the policing in the wrong direction: http://banbossy.com/

Forp, no one’s suggesting that using a synonym for prostitute – one that maybe carries less stigma – is going to make a difference to johns. But maybe it makes a difference to sex workers. It seems like you want to talk about sex workers, but not to them. That’s, you know, somewhere between erasure and talking over people.

This group of women gets to do the consciousness “raising” and this type of woman gets to have her knuckles rapped on with a ruler. I do not agree to the clean up of “sex work” because I don’t believe it is all the same. It’s a difference of opinion. The words do matter and it’s not all “sex work”. I’m not a bad, bad person because of this and it doesn’t mean I don’t listen to women working in the “sex” industry or that I’m not educated about women’s various types of experiences and the approaches to the problem (or non-problem depending on who you ask). It also doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion of the actual lived effects in my own life of this great! porntastic! liberation! of women! because it goes against the grain when I say it sucks for me in my life in these ways. What it does mean is that instead of talking about my larger point, we’re talking about the mistaken usage of a word. On most feminist boards (or on Twitter) I could call Giselle Bundchen a c-word for her comments about other pregnant women being “trashcans” but I’m not allowed to just say her career has really not been all that helpful for me and other women, in my opinion, and she’s pretty well set up in the patriarchy if you ask me. NOT. ALLOWED. Because if I just “got it” correctly I wouldn’t say something like that, right? There can’t be substance to my argument or disagreement, because it doesn’t line up with the one way to think and talk about it.

70-year-old Betty who’s barely making it on her Social Security can’t participate in this type of feminism. CAN’T. Because even though she supports those “gay kids” she doesn’t say cis enough or use trans in quite the right way every single time. And she’s too fucking exhausted to deal with it. Her voting record is just fine, but her problems don’t get aired out in quite the same way as those who have the time and energy to do the chasing out of the bad, bad women who won’t just read correctly and write correctly and word things the way others believe they have to to express themselves. It’s just fucking petty and the only people who have their consciousnesses raised are those willing to stick it out. And the thing is, I have stuck it out, but it is assumed that I have not because I don’t agree with some things I ought to. And I’m sitting here thinking it’s such waste of my time to even try to explain or express my perspective or opinion on this because I know exactly what’s going to happen and it won’t be the raising of my consciousness or support, but the erasure and ignoring of my viewpoint because it didn’t line up exactly with the correct! way to express it. Jill can get away with a criticism of Christie Brinkley, but I wouldn’t be able to. Because people feel like if they go after every internet comment they’ve accomplished something.

Sometimes I feel like intersectionality has overtaken and run over feminism. And sometimes misogyny hides behind anti-racism, anti-classism etc. For example, when the media focuses, out of pure salacious and prurient interest, on white murdered and raped women and girls, there is a section of liberals (mostly men) who feel perfectly comfortable calling those white murdered and raped women and girls “blonde bimbos” while criticizing the media for not covering the murder/rape of people of color. The culture in which those men feel comfortable calling those murdered/raped women and girls “blonde bimbos” is the intersectionality culture, where a lot of anti-racist and anti-classist sentiment is directed not at white men, but at white women, usually in misogynistic ways. I have friends who are women of color who are very fond of using the b-word to describe white women, as in “racist b**ch” or “rich white b**ch”. The white woman could be any random woman on the street, minding her own business, a stranger.

I totally agree with Twisty that language and debate is critical to action. As psychologist Kurt Lewin said ‘There’s nothing as practical as a good theory” and backed it up with a model of change based on reflecting-planning-acting-observing-reflecting- etc. So reflection/debate is critical.

That being said, is it really necessary to shame our allies? I’ve previously worked in a field where the principle of non-violence was central to the work. Though I was often shocked at what some people espousing this principle actually DID (which didn’t match what they SAID), on the whole I found that it was helpful in attracting people to participate. They felt safe.

An Aboriginal colleague of mine introduced me to the idea of
which is where “people in positions of powerlessness, covertly or overtly direct their dissatisfaction inward toward each other, toward themselves, and toward those less powerful than themselves”. To resolve it, Aboriginal man Richard J Franklin suggests “out it. Name it for what it is, a destroyer of Indigenous culture and life. Publicly admit it is happening and then take steps and measures to deal with it… Find ways to deal with it, end it, eradicate it from our lives and communities” (referenced on page linked to through ‘lateral violence link’).

So I think it’s a good thing we are having this discussion. I don’t think it’s trivial – Twisty herself has said it’s the reason for her blogular sporadicism.

Feminist in-fighting reminds me of the proverbial overworked and underappreciated father/mother coming home from work and screaming at the kids for minor rules infractions. Too much pent-up frustration coming out sideways, directed at “safe” targets. It’s one thing to call out a fellow feminist on unconscious displays of privilege, it’s another thing entirely to use the situation as an excuse to verbally abuse or dogpile on fellow feminists. I see the latter happen far too frequently and it not only creates unnecessary friction, it actively discourages women from getting involved in movement feminism. The world is harsh enough for female-identifying people, you know? We can afford to practice privilege policing in a kinder, gentler manner with each other. A women identifying as feminist comes to the table with a different level of empathy and willingness to learn than your typical liberal dude. Why treat them the same? Liberal Dude is likely to be all hopped up on privilege and eager to scapegoat someone for his troubles. The feminist is probably carrying around some degree of unexamined privilege that’s going to necessitate a little reeducation at some point. The difference being: dude doesn’t really care or want to care about your problems. Lay on the guilt with abandon! The feminist is going to fuck up out of ignorance and is amenable to change. Scolding/shaming her is only going to serve to increase the shit-ton of self-loathing she’s burdened with for merely existing in this world as a female person. More compassion, less castigation: that’s what feminism needs right now.

And count me in as one of Those Feminists who is utterly exhausted by all this intersectionality stuff *because* the concept has been misappropriated and watered down. I can’t help thinking of one online feminist community in particular where intersectionality has been diluted to include “class status AND lifestyle choices”, resulting in zero tolerance for criticism of any choices a self-professed feminist might make. Don’t you dare say anything negative about high heels! Or beady ess em! (Torture fetishists were, so I’ve been told, just Born That Way. Uh huh.) Sex work is now above reproach. Of course sex *workers* need to become a protected class, but since when did the sex industry and the myriad ways it perpetuates and further entrenches sexism and misogyny become a verboten subject in feminist circles? It seems that over the last few years or so a handful of relatively privileged sex workers have managed to convince mainstream feminists, ever eager to prove their intersectionality cred, that criticism of the sex industry leads to negative perceptions of the sex industry, which, in turn, could theoretically discourage men from hiring escorts/going to strip/clubs/etc., and we must avoid this outcome at all costs because it would deprive sex workers of income. Revenue generation for a relatively privileged few now supersedes the welfare of women in general and all of society. This is the dark side of intersectionality, when special interest groups commandeer the discussion, demanding unconditional inclusion and unquestioning acceptance of their practices and beliefs. If you so much as flinch, someone is going to label you a nasty ass bigot. It’s manipulative, divisive, and effectively poisoning younger feminists against radical feminism.

Also, this?

The culture in which those men feel comfortable calling those murdered/raped women and girls “blonde bimbos” is the intersectionality culture,

NO. It isn’t.

I totally get the shit WOC deal with – Aboriginal friends and Toni Morrison and Zora Neale Hurston helped there.

As Twisty says ” I don’t see how anyone can reasonably expect members of marginalized groups to “lighten up”. Is there a fine line between schooling and scorching?”

What I’m talking about is “Mean Girls of Feminism Eating Their Own”. Smackdowns and trivialisation when those smacked down say ‘hey, that hurt’. Why smack people of good faith who are here to learn? Why not treat them with compassion and welcome and willingness to discuss?

I’ve been in a lot of discussions about this as my fear of anger is a major issue for me.

Though I kinda like the saying ‘toughen up princess’, perhaps people who haven’t experienced anger turning into a ‘clip around the earhole’ maybe don’t quite understand the barriers you need to overcome to do this? It’s a continual process.

I’m always very inspired by Nelson Mandela as he seemed to be able to rise above his anger and show a powerful way of asserting his rights. That also seemed to be very inspiring to many others.

Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were inspired by Mahatma Gandhi who practised Satyagraha which he described as “love-force or soul-force. In the application of satyagraha, I discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on one’s opponent but that he must be weaned from error by patience and compassion”.

Twisty says “A civil tone is more pleasant, but … not necessarily more effective”. But perhaps Mandela, and the nonviolent sit-ins of the Civil Rights movement, shows that a civil tone actually is more effective as the tone doesn’t get in the way so they can’t so easily put up defensive walls and just call you irrational? It shows you are actually the strongest and most ‘moral’?

Feminists here seem to be appropriating the cry of the white d00d. ” If you feminists were just nicer about it, men would listen”. If women weren’t so angry…if people of color weren’t so angry. As if anger isn’t justified. As if we should be noble ( savages) for your comfort. Really? But pheeno, how will we ever learn? Crack open a fucking book. Utilize that nifty thing I call google. That’s how.

Its experienced as racism and race privilege regardless of intent. And given the attitudes towards the #solidarityisforwhitewomen, I have no doubt that white feminism is all about keeping that privilege, as much as any white d00d is. Your post still boils down to ” please explain how my oppression of you hurts in a nicer way, so I dont feel bad”. You feel bad when you find out you’ve said something shitty? Imagine how the victim of your carelessness felt getting kicked in the teeth in some place touted to be safe for women. (Just not women of color) Feminists DO know better. And their education is up to them if they do not. Again, we are not your mammies or shamans put on this earth to stop fighting our oppression to school you sweetly and feed you little bite sized pieces of thinkystuff. Do your own homework, and if you fuck up, own it instead of excusing it. And if someone isn’t nice enough about your boot on their neck, be more careful where you step.

And this has been around, and made the rounds since 2008. 6 damn years and yall are STILL saying the same damn thing. But cant manage to puzzle out why others are sick of it.
http://kittikattie.livejournal.com/796501.html

Its experienced as racism and race privilege regardless of intent. And given the attitudes towards the #solidarityisforwhitewomen, I have no doubt that white feminism is all about keeping that privilege, as much as any white d00d is

I don’t want to diminish the importance of what you’re saying, because I believe it’s true that there’s a segment of the white feminist population harboring a “justice for me, not for thee” attitude. From what I’ve seen, it’s a fairly small contingent that draws attention specifically because of their narcissism and seemingly congenital inability to withdraw their heads from their asses. I hope I’m right about that (that it’s a small group). They seem to also be the most wedded to patriarchy, obstinately refusing to examine their internalized misogyny. Just all around self-interested stinkers that want to take from the social justice movement what benefits them and to hell with everyone else.

I’ll admit that it stings a bit to be lumped into this homogeneous “white feminists” group where the most obnoxious and narcissistic members are invoked as representatives of all white feminists everywhere. If you’d simply said “White people suck”, I would’ve understood immediately what you were referring to and I would’ve agreed with you. For some reason it feels personal when “white feminists” are targeted. Maybe it’s because, as I’d mentioned above, a woman interested in practicing feminism (as opposed to slapping the label on herself, vampirically extracting the benefits and calling it a day) comes to the table with a level of empathy and willingness to learn that most liberal dudes just don’t have. The slap-down isn’t necessary when there isn’t any resistance to overcoming privilege in the first place. Just an honest mistake here and there, free of ‘tude – like failing to consider the struggles of WOC in their assessment of a sexist situation; e.g., an oversight.

Not sure what else to say. Speaking from the perspective of a disabled person, it riles me up when people say ableist shit and utterly fail to consider how different my daily life is from theirs. I get angry, sometimes I get ragey, and while that anger is undeniably justified, what I don’t do is fail to distinguish between the maliciously ableist and the clueless ones who simply don’t know any better but would absolutely do better if someone experienced in such issues enlightened them. I don’t chastise the clueless ones (a little sarcasm might creep in, depending on the circumstances) because what’s the point? Is it for them to walk away shaking their head, feeling unjustly attacked by a Hysterical Harpy (the thing we women magically morph into in the minds of our “victims”, of course). Where’s the opportunity for growth and connection when the marginalized alienate their best potential allies? Some people deserve an ass whooping, others deserve a little good faith. I guess I don’t see the point in creating more friction and divisiveness in the world when all that’s essential for some people to Get It is a gentle nudge in the right direction. No one ever said you should devote precious time and energy to reeducating the clueless. It would suffice to say, “I know you’re unaware that what you just said is racist. You should check out this website: [Racism 101 site].” I don’t know how many clueless-yet-well-intentioned dudes I’ve sent to the Feminism 101 site, but that’s my trusty fall-back for times when I don’t have the wherewithal to even begin to get into the basics. Or when I simply don’t feel like playing teacher. It sure beats a beat-down because everyone gets to walk away feeling like they’ve been heard.

The number of white feminists who push back against any evidence they’re racist is not that small. And White Feminism as a whole is significant. Racism in particular has gotten the most visible push back. White privilege is as embedded as male privilege, it seems. Even when that douchebag Hugo S. Had his Twitter melt down and confessed to using white feminist racism against woc, those feminists refused to acknowledge or accept their active role. Those that did, did so with the non apology apology and excuse making. And still do to this day. Woc are treated like shit by white feminism and have been for too long. This is why you don’t see a willingness among woc to simply give benefit of the doubt. That’s a luxury we can no longer afford. White feminism and feminists have been shouting us down for decades. It’s too little too late. If you want to learn, you will. Regardless of the tone. If you don’t, we have no use for you and will leave you behind. It’s come to that, and its taken years. I think we’ve been exceedingly patient. Well, we’ve run out of patience and had white feminism bothered to listen over the past decade, those white feminists might not be so shocked by the anger. If you’re surprised, caught off guard or don’t understand it, you haven’t been paying attention. This is also not our doing. We tried nice. We tried hand holding. No one changed or learned.

Hi redyelloworanj. Googling solidarityisforwhitewomen might be a good place to start. When I googled ‘ally people of colour” this popped up. I reckon you’d be able to find something useful there. I’m about to embark on a reading binge when I’ve made dinner and finished my job applications.

It is not only white feminists who criticize intersectionality. I am not white, for example. The last time we had this discussion, there were a lot of women of color who were criticizing intersectionality.

It was not just jezzies. Look, you’ve got to stop trying to excuse this. It wasn’t just jezebel people and its not some insignificant outliers of feminism. I’ve explained this 7 ways from Sunday, fairly patiently and far less harshly ( isn’t that what some of you keep saying is how you learn?) But I’m getting pretty angry at the endless attempts to make it less than what I’m telling you. Or making it due to those “other” feminists. LISTEN TO WHAT I TOLD YOU AND STOP TRYING TO EXCUSE IT. I KNOW WHAT I’VE EXPERIENCED BETTER THAN YOU DO. This? This is part of the damn problem. You want to be told nicely about the issues. So I told you nicely. And your response was to deny, diminish and act as if I’m just not clued in enough to know what feminists are problematic. You, who claim to not know much about woc experiences with feminism, but now you know more about the problem than I do?

gingerest: “the daily expressions of oppression which a Black woman endures differ from those a white woman does, and a Black woman has as much right to define sexism by those expressions, and to define the battle against it (feminism) by her resistance to them as any other woman has to define and resist according to her experiences.”

pheenobarbidoll: “Read my much earlier post about being called a squaw. I know what that is, I know how to define what I experience. Squaw basically means white man’s whore. Not just whore. Not just female. But specifically, a female NDN white man’s whore. It uses both my race and my sex. Not just either or.”

If that was what intersectionality was about, in practice, I would not have any problem with it. I would fully support it and be active in it. But, in practice, that is not how intersectionality communities operate, as far as I can see. When Twisty failed to note that Jerry Seinfeld was oppressed as a Jewish person, she was not being called out for failing to note how Jewish women experience sexism or religious persecution or some synergistic combination thereof. What I see in intersectionality communities and debates is a version of “what about the men” hiding behind a facade of “what about race”, “what about class”, etc.

Oh, and that’s not to say intersectionality is critisism proof. Its what is being critiqued and who is doing the critiquing that is the problem. Feminism isn’t perfect and is subject to critisism too. But when its done by white men who dictate that its just mean women who won’t patiently explain fuck ups, we can surely agree that this is not valid critisism by anyone in a position to criticize. When white feminists critisize intersectionality ( or flat out deny it exists) , because woc are just meanies who aren’t patiently explaining or are just making it up to protect men, you can see how its not valid and that they are in no position to critisize.

(eep. now what’d I do to get into moderation? I will go wash out my mouth with soap.)

When you’re critisising a speaker for his or her privileges, you cant leave out things like race or ethnicity, because different power dynamics exist. Erasing his Jewishness erased that power dynamic and erased Jews as a whole. Do you honestly not see that? Asking that this stops isnt expecting feminists to stop being feminists or focusing on sexism. Its asking that they not erase identities and dynamics as they do.

What I am talking about has almost nothing to do with intersectionality, except that some people use that as an excuse to shame you into silence on certain issues. If women of color take over feminism completely, if all white women are quiet on the subject for 10 years, I will probably be better represented within feminism. I am all for it. I thought it was pretty clear some of us were talking about something else but I’ll try again.

When the UK porn filter brouhaha happened, my thinking was that that’s what it looks like when there’s democratic debate concerning legislating the internet. Whether you agree with that policy or not, you may have thought something similar if you are at all concerned about the increasingly bubble-ized, click-baited, Google-controlled and corralled nature of internet activism, outrage, discourse, “democracy”, whatever. Well, I was accused of being pro-Syrian-baby-and-girls-and-women-rape-and-torture, aligning with the Christian Right, wanting to shut down all independent journalism, hating free speech, etc. for expressing less than perfect alignment on the porn-filter issue. Now, the most effective argument here to shut me down from speaking my interest about how the conversation in the UK actually is (whether the porn-filter is in fact the worst thing since Hitler) is that I am not being “intersectional” enough because I must not care about Syria if I can have a disagreement with all the very upstanding Liberaltarian Doods and Wellesley Girls about this particular thing. I wasn’t actually arguing with women of color about Syrian women’s voices on this issue or feminism or anything related.

If enough of us have a similar experience, specifically around these sex-industry-adjacent issues, maybe it’s because some people with a lot of time on their hands and a lot of experience arguing these things have decided to make money from the sex industry by shutting out unsavory opinions using so-called intersectionality as a way to guilt and shame people into silence. And maybe not. And maybe what I’m saying is NOT perfectly inclusive of all women’s needs, and maybe us having a difference of opinion on that is just the way it is and it DOESN’T actually mean I want Syrian kids killed, yeah?

I took that whole Seinfeld thing (which had a lovely trollish comment or two that followed) to mean that the problem wasn’t that “everyone” should know that Seinfeld is Jewish, but if you’re going to criticize someone (especially on an online platform), you shouldn’t ignore that person’s marginalized status, provided there is one (which has been discussed several times now). I think that’s fair although I will admit, initially I was too busy thinking, “That asshole!”

“When you’re critisising a speaker for his or her privileges, you cant leave out things like race or ethnicity, because different power dynamics exist.”

Personally, I prefer to criticize people for their behavior rather than their privilege. Maybe that is the reason I have so much disagreement with the intersectional community, because their focus seems to be more on calling out privilege.

Kali- I should have said for exercising their privilege. Simply having privilege isn’t generally their fault. Re reading my words I see it makes it sound as if I’m critisising them over something they have little control over, as opposed to ignorance of privilege or behavior stemming from privilege.

Made an earlier comment that seems to have disappeared – maybe stuck in moderation, or maybe too harsh and judgemental? (Sorry if so)

Just wanted to say I’m in favour of examining ourselves on intersectionality, but I really don’t like it when one feminist says about another “enjoy the pity party x is throwing for herself” (as happened earlier) and comments like that.

Non feminists are always happy to treat feminists with contempt, but we don’t need to do it to each other.

Right, which is why the first thing I said was, “What I’m talking about has almost nothing to do with intersectionality…” in that paragraph.

I really just wanted to agree with KmtBERRY about the infighting and add that it feels like it’s just too hard sometimes, especially if you can’t devote a ton of time to keeping up with it all or want to disagree without tenaciously arguing for a day or three. It was just a mistake to comment about it, I did not mean to take up so much space. Maybe someone else learned something or something.

women born women are called “cis”….

And?

I took a look at your link. The person who wrote it is a TERF. And she’s throwing certain women under the bus. Good for you for supporting her. Very feminist.

Oh, I didn’t dismiss her because she’s “been smeared” as a TERF. I read more than the article you linked, including her screeching about Fallon Fox. Who’s five foot seven and one hundred forty pounds. Three inches taller, fifteen pounds lighter, and with the same size biceps as this cis woman. Oh but clearly she’s spent years taking estrogen and had expensive painful surgery just so she can beat up women, because it’s so hard for cis men to assault women and get away with it. She’s a TERF. And if you describe trans women as men, you’re a TERF too. Enjoy.

The “criticism” was a picture of Fox with transphobic shit for a caption. But you’re right. I’d better watch my tone in future, lest I not be taken seriously and everything I say be dismissed out of hand. I could swear I’ve heard that before, somewhere.

If my comment above sounds like tone-policing to you, Cyberwulf, that can’t be helped. Because, to me, there’s no neutral way to call someone a “TERF”–the nasty tone is already built-in. I agree with monika that it’s an anti-feminist slur, so your sense that I’m not inclined to take you seriously–after you call another feminist a TERF–is accurate.

A transphobic shit is still a transphobic shit. Prioritizing females? Fallon Fox is a fucking female. This need to dictate who is female and who isn’t is repugnant given that no too long ago woc weren’t considered women either. We were beasts to be used. So you’ll just have to excuse me if I side eye assholes who make themselves and their beliefs the arbiter of womanhood. They’ve yet to get it right on their own.

And side rant with Fallon Fox. Its not brute strength that determines a fights outcome. Ive beaten the bloody snot out of girls back in hs who outweighed me, were taller by a foot and stronger. How? Because I had speed and skill. And I handed them their asses. Any other woman fighting fallon fox has the same chance to hand her her ass. Thats what they train to do.

Because that male privilege happens simultaneously with internalized sexism, fear and shame. Think that makes a wee bit of difference? I do. I present white. I am not white. And once, unbeknownst to me I dated a member of the local aryan brotherhood. He believed I was white and afforded me white privilege. When I learned what he was, I lived in utter terror of being found out. He was already abusive and I was without the tools to get away from him. Let me tell you, that terror overshadowed ANY privileged bestowed upon me. Live in fear for your life at being discovered you’re not the “rightful” recipient of that privilege and then we can chat about residual privilege. Be told who you identify as is shit, but you, why you’re great and those you identify with are worthless. Have that message hit you when you’re a child. Think that might screw with you any? I do.

What the hell is happening here? I jut posted a link to a radical feminist who documented that it was radical feminists who supported the WOC who were threatened by Schwyzer. I’m a Jewish woman who is very visibly Jewish, and the irony of this thread isn’t lost on me-accusations that I must be white because I dared to link to the “wrong” feminist, and now straying so far off topic into “what about the transwomen?”

Here’s how it is: I’m a woman who faces oppression from being Jewish and female. I wrote a comment showing support for other commenters who have to deal with intersectionality in feminism. Other commenters completely prove Forp’s point by dissolving into name calling a feminist who wrote things they don;t like which is a separate issue from what was originally being discussed.

Can someone PLEASE respond to what I ACTUALLY been saying? (sending thanks over to Morag).

Okay, monika, how about this. Say there was a feminist hashtag trending, about an issue that affected white, straight, cis women. And say some white dudes were aaaaaall on board with this, showing solidarity with us. But then we google a couple of their names and find stuff like “I’m not racist, but [screed about immigrants taking our jobs]”. Or an essay about how come lesbians in porn are super hot but in real life they’re ugly bulldykes who don’t want a man they can share. Would you be wringing your hands if those dudes were told “don’t bring the whiff of your bigotry around here, we don’t want your help”? After all, they’re being totally solid for white cishet women.

@XYFeminist: on the topic of residual male privilege, this post popped up on my tumblr dashboard a few weeks ago: http://cyberwulf.tumblr.com/post/79099716162/kiriamaya-i-scare-cis-people

For anyone who doesn’t want to click, it’s several trans women talking about the horrifying way in which men talk about women when they think they’re alone with other men. Relevant quote:

“When we are closeted and parsed as other men, [cis men] are completely open about how fucking disgusting they are.

Another reason why trans women being male-socialized is such bullshit. Being around men like this doesn’t force us to internalize positive messages about men, we internalize the negative we hear about women and we are scared.”

TERF is not an anti-feminist insult, jeez. Excluding entire groups of women is what’s anti-feminist.

Hi monika, you’re a TERF. Kindly put yourself in a garbage can and hop out to the curb.

Typical colonizer bullshit. Just so you know, MY culture and other indigenous cultures on this planet do not believe the same shit you do. And you can shove that racist colonization bullshit right back up your ass. You are not an ally, you’re an enemy. Your crap bigotry isn’t our problem, colonizer. Go colonize someone else you racist piece of shit.

Native American cultures that had strict gender roles for men and women had the concept of two spirit or transgendered people to explain why those people didn’t behave the “right” way. The cultures that didn’t enforce gender roles and didn’t have a fear of homosexuality did not. Sorry you can’t obfuscate my points with calling me a colonizer though, my people were too busy going through pogroms and eventually being sent to a concentration camp. If you bothered to read my original comments all the way through, I had been agreeing with you about intersectionality in feminism. But it’s much easier to jump down my throat and IBTP for that.

Pheeno loves to abuse other women online and to brag about her violence towards other woman online. Been watching it for years now and the pattern has not changed. IBTP

Oh, please educate me on my own culture, wise colonizer. After all, we’re just dumb NDNS who need you to show us the way. And yes, you are a colonizer. Right now. Every non indigenous person on this continent is. Today. Modern times. You benefit from our ongoing genocide. Your house sits on stolen land. Your malls. Your places of work. Your schools. The food that fills your stores exist because my ancestors were murdered and my people displaced. Our water is poisoned so you have luxuries. So be very, very clear that I mean you, today in 2014. But I forgot, you already know all about the over 500 remaining tribes and their beliefs right? So you already know this.

“You know, describing trans women as “men in dresses” is an attitude that directly leads to the murder of trans women”

Fucking bullshit. It’s men and their culture of masculinity that leads to the murder of trans women. What is up with you implicating women in men’s violence? For fuckin’ shame.

“Fucking bullshit. It’s men and their culture of masculinity that leads to the murder of trans women. What is up with you implicating women in men’s violence? For fuckin’ shame.”

HA. HA. HA. HA.

Why the fuck do you think cis men murder trans women (leaving aside the fact that women are just as capable of murder)? Why don’t you google “trans panic defense” and see if there’s any similarity between that and monika’s disgusting, phobic description of trans women as “a man in a dress”? Not to mention upholding biology as the One True Indicator of Gender. You know, the very thing that patriarchal societies have always used and still use to justify the worst excesses of men and the characterisation of women as weak and helpless?

Shame on YOU.

Pheeno is an old habitue of the IBTP boards, back from earliest beginnings. She grew up white in a Native reservation setting in the US, and continues to claim white identity when it’s convenient. Here, though, she’s *the* WOC whose experience trumps all others’, and any discussion of race draws her in like a magnet, where she then proceeds to shit up the discussion. Nothing but a bully.

It’s revealing to look at the evolution of her online presence at IBTP, from claiming a mostly white/poor identity to the current Native iteration. It’s bullshit. Woman, unquestionably. Poor, very likely. Disabled, possibly. NDN, absolutely only online.

You also need to pay more attention. My responses up until I was called a dick sucker( and by extension my entire tribe), were not blasting anyone except those feminists who were linked to and referenced for supporting woc, but then ( rightfully) ignored. So I’ll wait while you address those who first started blasting.

monika came into this conversation in full agreement that understanding the intersection of sex and race is absolutely VITAL to feminism. She offered herself as an example of a woman who experiences anti-semitic misogyny, and she actively listened to and supported other women’s narratives about sex-based oppression compounded by, and inextricably woven into, racism. She also had questions about how well intersectionality works in practice, and provided a concrete example of its limited success in the Schwyzer scandal.

Her sincere efforts at conversation went nowhere. Because of her critical view of genderists, she’s been demonized–unequivocally, but irrationally–as a de facto racist. So have I. And this charge of racism apparently comes from the fact that “women of color can be and also are trans persons.” Well, women of colour can be part of many different groups with an articulated cause, and not all of those groups will receive the support of all feminists just because women of colour are represented in them.

pheenobarbidoll, you have thoroughly conflated anti-racism with pro-genderist politics. You turn two separate movements into a monolithic one, and then invoke the concept of intersectionality to consecrate this monolith as beyond doubt or question.

This makes it possible for you to abusively dismiss even a committed anti-racist feminist AS a despicable racist, in order to discredit (in advance) her critical views on gender. I call this propaganda; it is coercion, manipulation and silencing through shaming. It’s an unjustifiable attack, not only on individual women, but on intellectual honesty itself.

Oh and since I’m such a mean girl, you also dismissed MY experience as a woc comparing identity situations with ” men in dresses”. Because god knows I need a non NDN to explain my own damn lived experience, im clearly too stupid, and require YOU telling ME those parallels are wrong.

And the next time you want to accuse me of playing the race card, cut the word salad and just say it. What was that about intellectual honesty again?

Calling trans women “men in dresses” is bigoted, phobic, and not supportive of women. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Talk about proving the point of Twitsty’s post! No one is checking their privilege here!

“Man in a dress” is nasty and transphobic. There’s no way to use that term otherwise. Yes, there are cis-men who pose as women online to harass feminists on blogs [cite] but those dudebags aren’t who we are talking about here. And unless you want to end up shitting on everyone’s identity, you’re much better off critiquing people’s behavior rather than attacking the legitimacy their identities.

Similarly, TERF is loaded and problematic as it singles out radical feminists as being somehow extra-transphobic than all other feminists (no one ever calls a transphobic fun feminist a TEFF). Of course there are some transphobic radfems in the world, but TERF is frequently used to silence any radfem who dares to question the very idea of gender and the problems of gender constructs. When people on this blog have told you that the term TERF is hurtful, why do you still use it? To quote Twisty, “Remember, folks: your hurt feelings are the result of privilege. They’re giving you the opportunity to go out and entruthen yourself. Don’t waste it.”

And Pheeno, Cyberwulf. You are hijacking the conversation. From Twisty’s own commenting policy:

If you find yourself commenting more than 2 or 3 times on a given post, please consider shutting the old piehole.

Currently, the comment counts on this post alone are as follows:

Pheeno: 29!!! (this may be a record)
Cyberwulf: 16
Bushfire: 6
Kali: 6
Quixote: 6
Morag: 5

(my apologies if I missed anyone)

And Monicka’s original point still hasn’t been addressed. Probably because anyone who isn’t used to exercising their privilege of talking over others has been drowned out of the conversation.

Please, everyone check your privilege and share the space.

Going back to lurking now.

Thank you Morag and Maria for your supportive comments. I really appreciate that you recognized that I was acting in good faith-I’ve been reading radical feminist blogs for a while and only started to leave comments. A the risk of getting even more abuse, I’m going to step away here because this discussion feels triggering to me, as someone who’s been in an abusive family. And no this isn’t a “flounce,” I just feel that exhaustion that Forp wrote about before. Just a reminder, I’m not the one calling other women trash or pieces of shit. I don’t even live in America or Canada! I’ll say what I said before: radical feminists are not the enemy.

Im not conflated two spirit with trans, you twit. Which I’ve showcased pretty clearly by separately mentioning trans persons AND ( see that fucking word) homosexuality. Two spirit is not even MY GODDAMN TRIBES NAME FOR IT. Well LOOK AT THAT. Further, I explained that woc who are ignoring terfs are ignoring them because its racist bigotry and last I fucking checked, colonization. Another word you dont even know the definition of given your placing it in the past, not present. Have you figured out you need to shut the fuck up up yet?

Morag- oh I see. Racism is fine if it comes on the heels of having a belief accused of being racist. In order to defend oneself from being thought of as a racist, one should use racism as a response. Yeah. That makes sense. Her racism came AFTER. So its all good, right? Saying that I experience those beliefs as racism and colonization privilege, thats totally an attack. And should be countered with more fucking racism. However did I get the idea people were racist and stuffed with colonizer privilege? Its a mystery, to be sure.

Thats lovely maria. Now let me google Jews and regurgitate everything I find to you, as the gospel truth. That should make it alright. And when I find something thats not accurate or stupidly simplifies something, I’ll ignore your direct words and just double down, insisting I know more about your beliefs than you do. Oh, and to prove it, I’ll be anti semetic while I do it. And YOUR reaction will be dismissed as mean.

I’ll be sure to let the woc I know to know you said it isn’t racism, so they understand you speak for us all and our experiences dont count. Because, dick sucking I guess. What you don’t seem to get is that its not a dishonest premise. If we disagree I suppose you can hand us links on the internet to explain our cultures to us. Guess that support and focus on women doesnt extend to the benefit of the doubt. Not when racism accusations can be dismissed as dishonest ( or playing the race card) or meanness.

I apologize pheeno that my comments were examples of racism and colonialism. I’m not a native English speaker or from North America, but like I said in my earlier comments if you bothered to read them, I know racism doesn’t hurt any less even if it comes from someone well meaning. The only reason I spoke matter of factly about is that’s how I learned English, and also I hate when women speak unconfidently and make everything a question. Once again my intent was not to lecture you about your own culture, but rather dispute some of the claims you made about gender.

I’m going to try not to comment anymore, but I think it would be great if you and Cyberwolf would apologize for not reading my comments fully or responding to my points, calling me names, lumping all the commenters who disagree with you together (you just wrote that comment about Jews to Maria, when i said I’m the one who is Jewish), and making assumptions about my background. I still agree with everything Maria and Morag wrote, but if it’s my responsibility to clear the air then I will.

Monika, you called trans women “men in dresses”. You belittled their lives and the danger they live in. That’s why I called you trash. I don’t feel obliged to be nice when someone comes out with bigoted stuff, no matter how anti-racist they are. But you’re right that I didn’t address your comment, so here I go.

Imagine if there was a feminist cause out there and a bunch of white dudes were all for it, being real allies to the white women who were the most vocal advocates of the cause. But then we googled a few of their usernames and came across posts they’d written about how immigrants were taking all the jobs. Or that homosexuals shouldn’t be involved in youth organisations because it might hurt children somehow. Or how poor people were too lazy to get off welfare. Would you be wringing your hands if men like that, with those views, were told to get the fuck away from this feminist cause? That we really didn’t want the help or support of people who held racist, homophobic, or classist views?

IM safer on the reservation too, until non NDNS get involved, so I guess its not us its your fucked up outside world thats the problem. Non NDNS rape NDN women, to the point our numbers are 5 times higher than the national average. We’re killed by non NDNS, raped by non NDNS, subjected to racism, colonization, and on some reservations the life expectancy is 47. Many reservations are tge equivalent of 3rd world countries, thanks to non NDNS. So thanks for making my case for me. Its yall who are fucked up. My people and our beliefs about people ( trans persons included) are clearly less P corrupted. But you go ahead and cling to your ways. They work so well.

Sounded like you were being sarcastic. And you dont have to be from this continent. http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/russell-means-for-america-to-live-europe-must-die

Long time lurker here…
Insults (from justified anger) flying, Monika as has been said, Twisty has specified this is a non-transphobic blog, “man in a dress” is a sadly common dismissal of trans women’s participation in feminism. WOMEN’S rights are HUMAN rights. If you can’t accept that this is not acceptable or fail to see that calling a trans woman a man in a dress is utterly wrong, GTFO. You are no it being forced to agree, but called out on how offensive those statements are and informed that they are not welcome here.

No matter how well informed you are about the culture of another, if you explain their own culture to them, you will be seen as a condesceding, racist asshole. Man explaining feminism while ignoring woman’s comments = sexist. Person not of specifc culture explaining specific culture while ignoring comments of person from specific culture = racist.

How about reading the original post? Twistys point seems to be that if you are called up on something, don’t get defensive – use the hurt feelings a signal to check the privilege you might be wielding. Take a step back – why did pheenobarbiedoll call you racist? Is it because she’s a big meany or did she experience your comment as racist? That seems to be the question that people fail to ask themselves before jumping to defend their own hurt feelings.

Feminism didnt include woc when it was first concieved of either, but evolution occurs. As it should. And as far as two spirits, last I checked since youre bringing it up, it includes 4th gender and also includes things like lifestyle, clothing choices ( man in a dress sound familiar?)social roles to the point that insisting it didnt cover trans gender is shaky ground at best. At worst its using indigenous beliefs as a tool of oppression. I generalize when I have no desire to tutor someone in indigenous issues. If that motivates you to zero in on a 3rd grade level understanding of two spirits as if it means anything, thats your problem.

Secondly, xy feminist is a d00d, according to his blog profile.

And since you enjoy specifics, it would be pretty fucking hard for indigenous beliefs fom 500 years ago to accurately cover TODAYS trans gender, since people couldn’t surgically transition back then. If one were to adapt the 2 spirit concept, then yeah it sure would. Im sure to the disappointment of bigots everywhere.

Personally, I’ve had my fill of assholes using asshole beliefs to dictate the identity of other people. Blood quantum has a nasty fucking side affect I dont care for ( reference cherokee freedmen as my example), and this man in a dress business is as close to a blood quantum as it can get. And if those are your beliefs then not only do I not speak for you, it turns my stomach to even speak TO you.

It’s interesting how “indigenous issues” and “tribal identity” take on whatever properties it is you need them to (including a sudden and very convenient “generality”) in order for you to triumph in debates on the internet. This invoking of non-Western identity as nothing in itself, just a convenient foil trotted out as a vehicle for critique, has a really long history. It’s a colonial one. This thread and your arguments in it have become parodic: you are doing *exactly* what you level as critique, pheenobarbidoll.

Looking the other way when bigotry is involved is your feminism, not mine. Its also why your feminism is stalled out dead in the water and why no one is going to offer you a hand. Your pool of allies is shrinking, and now youre just a pathetic sect of feminists no one listens to. I’ll care about poor bigot commenters when you care about the women you’ve shit on because their blood quantum isn’t enough for you. If you or they dont like it, well too bad for you. I’ll pencil in crying a river.

It’s not “going off-script”, it’s bigotry.

The Patriarchy makes it impossible for any woman to live a perfect feminist life, or a perfect intersectional feminist life, or even a perfect intersectional feminist internet life.

The insidiousness of the Patriarchy makes it difficult for women, all of whom are trapped by the Patriarchy to a greater or lesser extent, not to turn on each other.

The Patriarchy is helping itself to a long and prosperous future each time we fight each other.

We fight the Patriarchy every time we recognise these truths and apply them to trying to make our lives, and those of other women, better.

There’s being gentle with people who are trying. Then there’s spackling over an ugly mess of bigotry for the appearance of unity. I won’t do it.

This discussion has gotten ugly. And it does intimidate a blamer to speak up.
Linda, I hear you! Maria, you too.
Not seeing things exactly like (anyone) does NOT a vitriolic transphobic bigot, or a racist colonizer make.
Quit the name calling, please.

Pheenobarbidoll, cyberwulf et al: you’re being really cringey and super embarrassing, and I say this as someone who’s an immigrant and not white. These things should be discussed in a civil, intelligent manner, but all you’ve provided are misogynist, hysterical, baseless, wildly hyperbolic polemics. Disagreeing with elements of trans dogma and enforced orthodoxy does not make someone a TERF–it makes them someone capable of critical and independent thought. Similarly to other people here, I’m a non-white person who’s critical of what passes for ‘intersectionality’ because I think radical feminism as a theory already has analysis of class, race, caste etc inextricably built within it. You have no right to tell women to shut up, insult them, call them ‘twits’ or ‘bigots’; we should all be grateful to Twisty for her excellent essays and the space she provides here and instead you’re monopolizing and weaponizing her personal blog as a platform for your own vitriol and misdirected hate.

Interesting that this conversation only “got ugly” when a WOC started speaking up and another blamer was called on her transphobia. Apparently there’s nothing ugly about a bunch of white women solemnly agreeing that they shouldn’t be called on their bigotry, which they aren’t even capable of because they’re helpless victims of the patriarchy, whining about having to mommy mean black women who aren’t even grateful for their support, and telling women who aren’t exactly like them to just shut the fuck up already, all this petty fingerpointing is getting in the way of the Grand Plan and dicksucking for the patriarchy. Also, women who don’t literally hate and fear all men everywhere are traitors.

I guess racism isn’t vicious. Or colonization ( which contributes to the ongoing genocide of NDNS). Nope. Not vicious. Woc reacting to it is vicious and racist white women should get a pass, because women. The woc who won’t post here because of racism don’t count, the only women who count are white women afraid to be called on their privilege. The fact that a majority of woc want nothing to do with these feminists is blamed on woc, or the p but never these feminists own words. White women must be coddled, we must shuck and jive for them, we must be the help and tell them they are smart, they are important or else they won’t help us. This is the message here.

The level of disrespect is mindboggling, not just to women are experiencing a level of intersectional oppression most of us could barely comprehend, (WOC and trans women) but to the blog owner herself, who has repeatedly asserted that as far as she’s concerned, trans women are women.

Not just the blatant disrespect and attempts to shout over Pheeno and accuse her of running people off the blog with her oh so horrible tone. How very dare she. Not just the baldfaced “you’re oppressing me by not letting me oppress others” shit which is a near perfect copy of the persecuted majority shit thrown at us by the godbags and the poor white men. But the blatant disrespect to Twisty.

Ack, seem to be stuck in mod. Long time lurker echoing the sentiments of buttercup. Not only is being transphobic blatantly ignoring Twistys rules for this blog, but this comment thread seems to have completely missed the point of the article. If you are called out on something, use your hurt feelings as a clue to privilege wielding. The arguments that Pheenobarabiedoll and Cynewulf weren’t being nice enough when they called you seems very similar to the godbags insistence on their freedom of speech at the expense of others, or the cry feminists here from “allies” – you’re just not explaining it well enough/nicely enough no wonder men are sexist blah blah as nauseum. Basically its not their responsibility to educate you by being nice and patient when you are being offensive. If you are called on being offensive, as Twisty said in the article, it is YOUR responsibility to educate yourself and learn from your mistakes, or decide to affirm your conduct, whatever you chose.

I just want to express support for monika, Morag, Maria, and anyone else I may have forgotten!

To pheenobarbidoll, Cyberwulf and buttercup:
From where I sit, YOU are the privileged ones. Let me explain. I’m from and live in an Eastern European country, and English isn’t my first language. Sometimes we don;t have access to reliable electricity, and so for me to get to a computer is lucky. I come from a country where if the police want to, they can break into your house and arrest whoever they want without any legal papers. I’m also Jewish, and pogroms here aren’t a thing of the past. My mother survived a concentration camp. Not my great grandmother, not a distant cousin….MY MOTHER. It’s not uncommon for one to know at least one woman who has been, or has been threatened with, human trafficking. And forget about gay marriage, if you’re even visibly lesbian here that’s enough to be beaten nearly to death.

So for you to dominate the discussion here with a lot of comments, to call a woman who has repeatedly said she doesn’t have the same background as you, and to call other women oppressors because they don’t agree with you…..that to me is a PRIVILEGE. I’m so glad you have time to talk about various isms and call out the assumed privileges of commenters you don’t like, but for me and a lot of other women, that doesn’t come close to our lived reality by a long shot.

Just thought I’d leave this here, since the topic of whiteness was brought up: http://hungrylemongrab.tumblr.com/post/70422079541/whiteness-in-europe-tumblrs-us-centric-sj

Whiteness isn’t a race or skin color. Its a system, like the P. Colonization doesn’t stop at borders either, unless you live in a country that never imports anything ( the us stealing indigenous resources to export to the world benefits everyone but the indigenous stolen from.) The US takes advantage of oppression in other countries this same way. I find it interesting that most everyone can recognize the contribution of us oppression when, for example, sweat shops are involved. But indigenous americans bring up the same type of global oppression and exploitation and we’re called US centric as a way of absolving residents of other countries. Residing in another spot on the globe doesn’t give you permission to define someone elses culture for them, or use it as a tool of oppression. That? Thats a colonizing mentality right there. I know nothing of your culture, but here let me teach you about it anyway. And when the indigenous of the country are still in the midst of ongoing genocide, that colonization mentality causes real harm. Instead of seeking to understand, you defend and justify it, without even knowing what you’re defending. I dont know if I can stop my eyes from rolling at the idea that European oppression of Native Americans stopped in 1776.

Jewish women aren’t oppressing you. She apologised. Get over it.

She doesnt know enough on the over 500 recognized tribes and differing beliefs to comment at all to begin with. Until people get that you cannot interpret indigenous gender roles through non indigenous eyes and expect anything remotely accurate, they need to stfu about it. The very act of defining indigenous gender roles via non indigenous lens is colonizing. Its been happening for over 500 years, for fucks sake. Think thats enough? I do. And until her comment about me calling her white, I wasnt addressing her individually to begin with, I was talking about the outspoken, more well known white radical feminists that she and others had linked to and were mentioning. Ive made that clear 3 fucking times now. So who’s the fucking bully. Or are you expecting me to give you the benefit of the doubt that you just accidentally didn’t fucking notice in your hurry to explain to me thats her bullshit perspective on indigenous cultures here is ok, because Europe.

@christina: Are *you* doing anything in real life to help women, or are you just arguing on someone’s blog?

@lisa: Cyberwulf (who I’m pretty sure isn’t a woman)

Not blindly agreeing with everything another woman says means I’m a man.

As far as I can see, monika’s original comment didn’t even address transwomen

I didn’t start on monika personally until she used “man in a dress” as a synonym for trans woman.

the thread has dissolved into a pity party for men

How has it turned into a pity party for men?

and unfounded accusations of bigotry.

Using “man in a dress” as a synonym for trans woman is bigotry.

@tatiana: to call other women oppressors because they don’t agree with you

Bigotry is bigotry. Transphobia is transphobia. Don’t like it? Too bad for you, because I won’t ever not call it out. By the way, I live in a country where it’s illegal for women to have an abortion, and which has a conviction rate for rape of 5%. You know, if we’re playing that game.

Oh I’m sorry I thought there were feminists here, and that my people’s continued suffering would be given the same amount of weight as yours, but nah it’s just a “fun game.” When did anyone here said your people weren’t suffering? I spoke about my life- which is a fucking painful thing to do b/c I’m a woman too-to prove that the suffering of Jews is still going on in Europe and we would fucking kill to be thought of as white. The women in Europe are not responsible for your suffering, in fact we’re suffering just like you.

Big thanks to A Higher Functioning autistic for getting it.

Again, whiteness is not race or skin color. Aside from that, if you’re not the well known outspoken white radical feminists I was TALKING ABOUT BEFORE PEOPLE INCORRECTLY ASSUMED I MEANT THEM, THEN ITS NOT YOU I CONSIDER WHITE. Is that fucking clear enough? You dont have to be white to perpetuate colonization mentality. And since you give fuck all about my culture and their ongoing genocide, you’ll get fuck all back from me over yours. The fun game comment is called sarcasm. Look it the fuck up because im done drawing you a picture of why whats been said is in fucking fact offensive for anyone to say to the indigenous, no matter your goddamn geographical location. Stop justifying their words, because they are unjustifiable.

Yeah Le Sigh is pretty much my response to trans women’s threats of violence against us.

I guess it’s like the same yeah? Saying “man in a dress” / death threats= same. All good.

‘“Man in a dress” is the same mindset that leads to the murder of real trans women. Your whining victim complex is making this cis woman want to slap you.’

Feminist women are not the murderers of trans people. But men ARE the murderers of women, remember? Go slap the men, Cyberwulf. Oh, right!: women are safer and easier targets.

I see. You blame the kyriarchy. Just like Natalie Reed does.

Reed, the violent asshole who organized a protest against a day of remembrance for the L’Ecole Polytechnique massacre, because Reed did not like one of the feminists invited to speak at this memorial event. Curiously, when one blames the kyriarchy, trans-activism trumps the memory of fourteen women who were slaughtered by a woman-hater.

Have fun slapping “cis” women and “TERFs,” Cyberwulf. We can be sure that men will enjoy watching.

So the term “man in a dress” that was lobbied at a hypothetical transwoman in this discussion is worse than calling a living woman participating in this discussion a piece of trash.

I have to take issue with a comment above about how this isn’t a 101 space and us stoopid European women need to educate ourselves. Guess what, American women don’t hold the copyright on feminism. We have our own feminists writers and blogs in our own languages, and we’re so sorry that our feminism doesn’t engage in intellectual gymnastics about how men can magically become women because they say so. We have bigger issues to worry about, like how in my neighborhood gangs actively seek elementary school girls to sell. So sorry once again for trying to engage with American feminists, who love to call us bigots when that isn’t even close to our reality. We’ll just stay in our circle of feminists, since American feminists have proven that they love using foreign women as props-and I’m not talking just about this discussion. Everyone have a good day!

Twisty enables Pheenobarbidoll, Cyberwulf, & Bushfire in their attacks against the women who dare to comment here. It’s not the first time I’ve lost respect for Twisty, but it is the last time I expect her to do the right thing. They don’t even consider themselves radical feminists, yet here they are, seemingly welcomed by our host, making it a toxic environment for those who do. This has nothing to do with Trans and everything to do with the hatred & contempt shown to women who speak their own truths.

I love seeing the vast majority of commenters on this thread do what they know is right and stand up for the women being attacked by these impostors. Radfems support women & they don’t feel the need to police women with whom they disagree.

“Courage is a habit. A virtue. You get it by courageous acts. It’s like you learn to swim by swimming, you learn courage by couraging.” -Mary Daly

Keep it up sisters! Your strength gives strength to others!

pheenobarbidoll: chastisement is Cyberwulf’s speciality. She knows, apparently, which feminists are human trash, and which ones deserve to be slapped. She gives these women short-hand, reductive names, so that others will immediately know which women are human trash and deserve to be slapped.

This thread is a wonderful example of intersectionality and identity politics in action and taken to its logical ends. It begins with articulating differences (plotting each individual woman on a complex matrix of power and oppression where she, more often than not, is declared an overlord in need of correction). And it ends there, too.

Thats a nice tapdance around the fact the owner of this blog has already said trans women are women, and showed how very tiresome she finds the man in a dress slur, right here not 4 days ago. If you don’t like that or it causes you to lose respect for her, don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out. This is her house, not yours. She pays the bills here, not you. And, on the right hand side in the description, it clearly states this is an advanced blaming site. If you don’t agree with any of this, you are free to go cry into your e-pillow elsewhere. Otherwise, put your money where your mouth is and attempt to respect her space as a woman instead of stomping in and demanding she change to accommodate YOU.

pheenobarbidoll, who are you addressing in your last comment?

Morag-You, yulia and Maria.

And Maria, I sure dont see you worrying about your post count or the fact your words are in direct opposition to the blog owners viewpoint. One tends to rack up a post count when having to address 3-5 commenters. You and your bigoted buddies like to pile on, but it must be frustrating to pile on a strong woman who doesn’t give a shit and isnt intimidated. You’re on a trans friendly blog. Get the fuck over it. No one forced you to come here.

Oh goody! Links exonerating Natalie Die-Cis-Scum Reed of planning to protest a memorial event for the female victims of murderous hate crime because gender-critical feminists were there speaking about male violence. It was Reed’s ardent hope, expressed in a letter posted to Facebook, that the whole event would be shut down:

‘Many folks are trying to prevent VPL from hosting the event, especially given that VPL’s own policies insist upon events being inclusive and respectful towards marginalized groups and identities (and IIRC, gender identity is specifically mentioned). *Hopefully* the talk being prevented from taking place at VPL is what will happen, or at least VPL inviting members of the trans community to respond / debate. BUT IF THE VRR / JANICE RAYMOND TALK PROCEEDS AS PLANNED… I would very much like if we could organize a counter-event to take place at VPL the same day (with or without explicit approval from VPL… library square’s status as public space should permit us to gather there regardless of prior approval- at least long enough to stage the response event- as long as we aren’t being destructive or harassing anyone or anything).’

The entire letter, written by this shameless, egoistic pig, is posted on the “Women Born Transsexual” blog.

gingerest, people who believe that gender is innate (and thus, something that can be “misaligned” with a sexed body or “erroneously attributed”) are the gender essentialists. Included amongst the gender essentialists are transgenderists.

Bushfire, are referring to my reply to gingerest? My calm reply to her makes perfect sense and is not a rant. How is that disgusting?

I know cis women who disdain anything feminist, think all feminists are humorless, ugly women, think porn is fine and feminists just hate sex. They also think women ( themselves included) have it easy because we can manipulate men to do stuff for us and buy us expensive things. There are plenty of women who also think getting married and having babies are what women are for and working outside the home is selfish and wrong. They’re fine with their husbands making their decisions and believe this is the way it should be. How are these women different from the trans women you mention? Honestly. How are they different, because I’ve sadly heard the same things coming from the mouths of cis women too. When a women tries to exert male privilege ( or what men deem as their privilege and only theirs) punishment follows swiftly, as we all know. Trans women experience that punishment too. So speaking for myself only, I dont think thats just male privilege speaking, as it comes from the mouths of cis women as well. Its P brain washing, and every single human on the planet that lives in the P is born submerged in it. It takes hard work to over come a lifetime of brain washing and unfortunately not many people are willing to make that effort.

pheenobarbidoll you’re absolutely right (hence feminism being the minority as usual). But I just think that when women act that way, it’s internalized sexism like you’ve mentioned, not male privilege (because they’re still treated as women growing up). Regardless, I do think as humans, and as women, it’s important that we ARE inclusive otherwise we’ll just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Linda, all cis means is that you were correctly identified as female at birth. Explain how accurately determining your sex is offensive.

@ pheenobarbidoll: I see what you’re saying. Good point. I’ve had a friend for years who grew up as a gay man before transitioning and truthfully, I don’t know if she felt that she was a woman ever since she was a child (but I do know transitioning was something she had been thinking about for some time) and internalizing that sexism would make sense.

I did not put any words in Reed’s mouth. I quoted directly–using quotation marks and citing the source–and Reed’s words speak for themselves.

People can read, Bushfire, and they can make judgements about what they read. I’ve made mine.

Reed had hoped–it’s right there, in black and white–that a solemn event to remember and honour murdered women would be cancelled. If that failed, Reed planned to demonstrate against feminists slated to speak on male violence against women, simply because trans-activists don’t like these feminists’ critical views on gender. That’s shameless.

Reed wanted to co-op a day of remembrance, a day of women coming together to discuss violence against women, in order to air trans people’s grievances publicly. That’s profoundly insensitive and narcissistic. And, not a single word for the fourteen women who are dead because a misogynist hunted them down and shot them. Shot them while they pleaded that they were not the feminists he hated so much, hoping he would spare them their lives.

You’re free to call me disgusting for having zero respect for Natalie Reed. I’m also free to call your defense of this person disgusting. But, I get it now: women can “call out” other women as trash until the cows come home, but transgender people are a special, sacrosanct group beyond reproach. To notice their fucked-up politics and moral failings is unenlightened, bigoted, racist, hateful. Hell, from what I’m hearing, to just NOTICE reality of biological sex is considered violent. Violence ostensibly on par with Marc Lépine’s violence.

Reasoned criticism of a trans person or people is not transphobia.

Perhaps you don’t have the energy to take apart my reply because you’d have to make it up, Bushfire. Since I haven’t twisted, misunderstood or mischaracterized anything.

And, on the contrary, I’ve learned a lot from this and other radical feminist blogs. Including how to recognize shaming and silencing tactics.

The trash can is full. Of your empty rhetoric, neologisms, acronyms, slogans, platitudes, and gratuitous insults.

No response to the actual facts, I see. But then facts are so subjective.

TERFs belong in the dump with the trash. Off you go, TERF.

Well sarahonthemountain, I’d engage with you, but since you think I’m only using the term “cis” to suck up to men, that sjws are insane, and I’m throwing biological women under the bus by not agreeing with every bigot who was born with a vulva, it’s obvious what you are. So put yourself in the garbage can and hop out to the curb, TERF.

Seriously, is “throw yourself in the trashcan TERF” the best you got? You can’t even address any points at all and instead resort to namecalling? If you think you’re being cute or clever, you’re wrong. YOU are the one who belongs in the trash traitor. Do you get some perverse pleasure out of expressing the most vitriol hatred to women online? So how about you throw yourself in the trash and hope out to the curb, you misogynist scumbag traitor. Oh and sorry about your penis, or the fact you hate your own vulva…whichever fits.