David Miliband on Sky News (09/12/2007)
INTERVIEWER: The defence of the province of Kosovo in Serbia was one of the proudest boasts of the last 10 years of the Labour government but now state interests can be defended through war – those were the words of an advisor to Serbia's nationalist prime minister, Vojislav Kostunica, on Friday in reference to Kosovo's looming independence from Belgrade. Well joining me now is the British Foreign Secretary, David Miliband. Do we support independence for Kosovo?
DAVID MILIBAND, FOREIGN SECRETARY: Good morning. Well we've been very clear that without a compromise we need to move forward on the basis of the UN plan, which gave what was called supervised independence to Kosovo, a continuing UN, Nato and EU role but over 90% of Kosovars want independence. They want their own autonomy and the UN set up a political process in the late 1990s to try to bridge the gap between the two sides. That seems to have failed and so we now need to make sure that European nations show real leadership on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: Because the problem is, as you say, there hasn't been agreement. The Russians are basically backing the Serbian position and therefore even this idea of supervised independence is no longer on the table and the Kosovans are saying well possibly within the next few weeks they are going to declare independence which is….
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it very much is….it very much is on the table because the Un study, which took 15 months to pull all the sides together, put it on the table and no one's taken it off the table. And the UN Secretary General himself said that the status quo is unsustainable. And I think we all remember from the mid-1990s those terrible scenes in the Balkans, the slaughter in Sarajevo, in Srebrenica, and we saw the dangers then of standing at the side, wringing our hands, hoping for the best and pretending it was nothing to do with us. Actually it is to do with us. It's Europe's backyard and that's why I'll be in Brussels tomorrow with all the other European Foreign Ministers saying that this is a test for Europe's….
INTERVIEWER: Yes but I'm still not clear what you're saying though. What is the timetable you're saying? By what stage should there be…..
DAVID MILIBAND: Well tomorrow….tomorrow is the last day at which the negotiators, the mediators finish their work. They will report to the UN and say very, very clearly that they haven't been able to bridge the gaps between the two sides. The Kosovars themselves have said that they're not going to take pre-emptive action. There's not going to be a Kosovar Embassy in every capital in the world on December 11th but I believe that we can't just leave this issue and pretend it isn't there. There are risk of inaction in Kosovo. We've seen that before and I've said both to the Serbs and the Serbian Foreign Minister obviously this week and also the Kosovars that this needs to be done with the international community not in a chaotic and undisciplined way.
INTERVIEWER: But you heard…you heard those words I quoted at the beginning from the Serbian Foreign Ministry. I mean they are threatening war on this. There are 16,000 Nato troops there. I mean are we going to see fighting….
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I was very surprised by those comments when they came out on Thursday because they go right against what the Serbian Prime Minister has said, the President have said directly to the international mediators and I think that those comments have been at least in part disowned. All sides have said that they will not resort to violence. There are 16,000 Nato troops, about 160, 150, 160 British troops out of the 16,000 and the most important thing is that they prevent fighting rather than have to intervene to stop it but they are there for both eventualities.
INTERVIEWER: And they are prepared to fight?
DAVID MILIBAND: They are there to well ensure the safety of the civilians because we saw the slaughter in the 1990s and we can't just pretend that there isn't a history there. There is and we've seen that it's a very bloody history and it's right on our backyard.
INTERVIEWER: Moving on, we had some pretty stunning intelligence really from the United States this week on the whole question of Iran, a suggestion that Iran has actually stopped its nuclear weapons programme back in 2003/2004. Is Britain therefore continuing to press for tougher sanctions against Iran?
DAVID MILIBAND: Yes for a very simple reason – I mean it's really important that people understand that the intelligence estimate that came out this week talked about the weaponisation part of nuclear weapons programme – one of three parts. If the Iranians have stopped the weaponisation part, good, but there are two other critical parts to a nuclear weapons programme – the enrichment, which we know is going on because they boast about it, and secondly the missile testing. And as long as those elements are continuing then we cannot stand aside. It's very, very important that the international community shows that diplomacy can have teeth.
INTERVIEWER: Well nobody's suggesting you stand aside but I mean Britain has been, along with other Europeans, hanging on George Bush's coattails and he appears to have got it wrong.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it's nothing to do…no, no.
INTERVIEWER: Is it some kind of gesture towards the Iranians, saying 'Look we've been accusing you of doing this. We now don't think…our own side doesn't think you're doing it and perhaps diplomacy would be….'
DAVID MILIBAND: No, no, it's not. Well we are pursuing diplomacy but hear what I say. The enrichment programme continues. The missile testing continues. The American intelligence estimate says that the weaponisation part has stopped. It would be quite the wrong signal for us to say now that the Iranians are in compliance with UN demands. They're not but there is a very clear offer to Iran. It's not about a punishment strategy. There's a very clear set of incentives which not just us but actually the whole of the European community and the Americans and the Russians and the Chinese signed up for last year, which is if the Iranians stop their nuclear enrichment, freeze their enrichment programme, the opportunity is there for them for economic, scientific, technological co-operation, even for civilian nuclear power as long as there's no chance it will lead to nuclear weapons, which is a very dangerous arms race that it holds in prospect in the Middle East.
INTERVIEWER: You mentioned the Russians and the Chinese. I mean this latest American intelligence, they aren't going to support any further clampdown are they?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I'm surprised to hear you say that since the Chinese Foreign Minister was here on Wednesday. We had long talks about this. He addressed it publicly. The Russians and the Chinese are committed to a strategy that was set out in September and that was without a positive outcome on this enrichment question and a positive outcome on the outstanding issues because remember before 2003 the Iranians were pursing a secret (?) without a positive outcome on those two fronts.
INTERVIEWER: So there would be a further UN resolution? What would Britain like to see now?
DAVID MILIBAND: The next stage is a third UN Council resolution. It would be clear that as soon as the Iranians freeze, we don't have to do ahead with that. But without a freeze, there will be a third resolution which tightens the economic sanctions against Iran precisely because we are committed to a diplomatic solution because the alternatives are far worse.
INTERVIEWER: The Prime Minister was speaking this morning about the British hostages in Iraq. Now obviously this is an extremely sensitive matter. It has been a long time. It has been pretty quiet. What actually has the Foreign Office been doing to get these people freed?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I think it's important that publicity is never confused with activity and especially in a case like this. It's very, very important that we follow a very careful strategy. The distress of the families is going to be huge. It's bad enough to have the hostage taken, to then have the video coming out last week is just going to add huge….has added hugely to the distress. But the whole of the British government is working very, very actively on this. The Prime Minister's statement refers to this and I think it's important that I don't add to what he said. He's chosen his words extremely carefully and spoken for the whole of the British government on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: Is there any cause for optimism I mean from what you hear?
DAVID MILIBAND: It would be quite wrong to give a running commentary on this. This is a very dangerous situation and I think it would be quite wrong for me to start raising hopes one way or the other. What I do want to say is that we are working very, very actively on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: You say you're working actively but I mean there is this allegation in the Mail on Sunday today which is coming from Lord Ahmed saying Miliband tried to stop teddy bear teacher's rescue mission in Sudan.
DAVID MILIBAND: It's not coming from Lord Ahmed and it's nonsense. I mean the idea that I tried to stop Baroness Warsi and Lord Ahmed going is completely….
INTERVIEWER: You didn't object to the fact that she was a Tory frontbencher?
DAVID MILIBAND: It's complete nonsense. It's absolute nonsense and the people who I talk to on both sides of the political spectrum know it is nonsense that I tried to stop her from going.
INTERVIEWER: I mean Lord Ahmed does appear to have said in a BBC interview that he didn't feel that he was getting the encouragement and support to go out that he might have expected.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I spoke to….I spoke to Lord Ahmed several times. He got full support from our Embassy in Khartoum and what's more he and I agreed when the conclusion was reached for Mrs Gibbons…because one of the most important things is that Mrs Gibbons is back…
INTERVIEWER: Well.
DAVID MILIBAND: She's actually back in the safety of her. Well actually in way I care less about who gets the credit than the fact that she is back. The important thing is this was a team effort and Lord Ahmed and I both agreed it was a team effort and I think the officials in Khartoum who worked incredibly hard on this with officials in London don't deserve this sort of party political stuff. It's nonsense.
INTERVIEWER: So you never said “Well you know it might be better since she's only got a few days to serve if she just….”
DAVID MILIBAND: No, quite…that is quite, absolute nonsense. I utterly reject the idea that at any stage we tried to stop them going. I was engaged in intensive negotiations myself with the Sudanese Ambassador here, with the Sudanese Acting Foreign Minister in Sudan and there was no…the suggestion that we tried to stop this private visit is quite wrong. But the Sudanese were clear and we were clear that it was a comp….it was complementary to British government activity. It wasn't a….an activity of the British government. The Sudanese wanted that and we were clear about that.
INTERVIEWER: So I apologise for dotting around the world a little bit….
DAVID MILIBAND: That's my job.
INTERVIEWER: There's an awful lot going on. I wonder if you can put us in the picture a little bit on Afghanistan?
DAVID MILIBAND: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: I mean 2001, successful invasion, the ousting of the Taliban government yet this year I think 6,000 deaths, the highest level since 2001 overall recorded in Afghanistan. Now we appear to have a….Musa Qala, a fairly major conflict going on. I mean are we winning?
DAVID MILIBAND: I think there's been major gains because this time last year if I'd been on this programme you would have quoted to me leading Taliban commanders saying the spring offensive will drive back the British in Helmand Province. That hasn't happened. We have suffered tragic deaths of British soldiers but every single military encounter we have won. The challenge is to build a decent society that can look after its own affairs and that's what we're trying….
INTERVIEWER: Well we're not yet victorious are we?
DAVID MILIBAND: Exactly. Let me just make the point about Musa Qala because that is being led by the Afghan National Army with very strong support from British troops. Our job there is to build up the Afghan National Army, the Afghan police force and the Afghan political and economic institutions so that they can look after their own affairs. The Prime Minister is going to make a statement in the House of Commons this week, showing how we are suggesting a change of gear on this to recognise the new situation. Because the Taliban have been beaten back in 2007, they're adopting new terrorist tactics and we have to respond to that. We have to respond to that partly in a military way but this is never going to be won by military action alone. It needs a social, an economic, and a political strategy with the Afghan government.
INTERVIEWER: Because I mean the problem in Afghanistan is that the countries are fighting at very different military rules of engagement. I mean Britain we know, Canada, the United States, one or two other countries have taken heavy casualties yet the bulk of the Europeans are doing very little at all.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it's certainly true that in Helmand Province we are in the lead, in Kandahar it's the Canadians…
INTERVIEWER: Engagement.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it has to do with the north south because some of the troops in the north have so-called caveats on their activity. We want more countries to be playing a role in Afghanistan. One of the things we're going to be….the Prime Minister will talk about this week in his statement is about the role of other countries. Actually the new Polish government made clear they want to increase their force there which is obviously a good thing.
INTERVIEWER: Because they want to come out of Iraq?
DAVID MILIBAND: No, no. I mean that's actually not….not right.
INTERVIEWER: I mean they link the two?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well no. I mean the new Polish Foreign Minister actually has a long record of interest in Afghanistan and he recognises the centrality to safety in Western Europe.
INTERVIEWER: But if we take it overall, we hear commanders talking about a generation-long commitment in Afghanistan, something you presumably agree with.
DAVID MILIBAND: Certainly generation-long if you look across the piece at economic, social and military. I wouldn't….I'm not committing myself today to a generation-long military engagement.
INTERVIEWER: You know we've talked about unrest in Kosovo, we all know what's going on in Iraq. Whether they're current generals or previous generals, they've got a point haven't they? I mean New Labour seems to ask the military to do a lot more than New Labour is prepared to pay for.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I don't accept that. I think that the government, New Labour, faces a world which has new security threats. Remember in the 1990s, when I was involved in the 1997 manifesto, if you talked about terrorism people thought of the IRA. That was basically it. Now if you talk about terrorism, people realise we're in a different world. So it is the circumstances I think that…. Nobody denies that the threat has increased but the problem has changed I think.
INTERVIEWER: Well I mean it's more expensive isn't it? It was less expensive fighting the IRA than it is fighting the Taliban or al-Qaeda. No, my point is that over that period as a proportion of government spending defence has gone down pretty dramatically.
DAVID MILIBAND: In the end I don't want to get into just trading statistics but what has happened is that for the first time since the Cold War defence spending has started to rise. There will always be arguments about this. It's always right that we….because we ask a lot of our armed forces we support them.
INTERVIEWER: But we're not giving them priority are we?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I'm surprised that you say that because there have been real terms increases in.
INTERVIEWER: Yes but if you look at its share of the national cake, defence is getting less at a time when it's being asked to do more.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well defence spending has been rising, which I think has….significantly on the personnel side but there are big capital needs as well for infrastructure and that obviously is very, very demanding on the budget. I think that of course there are changes in the deployment of forces. There have been huge demands in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. We are asking a lot and we're committed to making sure that…
INTERVIEWER: Yes, I mean I suppose what I'm asking, you've come to this brief fresh, you are seen as one of the big brains if you like of the New Labour project, of the government. I mean do you think we've got the balance right?
DAVID MILIBAND: I mean you really have to think about this but I think that….and it would be wrong, it would be glib to sit here and say every decision we've made has always been right, no one would believe that. I think that in recognising the rising priority that we put on defence, in recognising the rising demands in defence, we have put extra money in. You can always say that there is a case for going further in any area, whether it be health, education or the armed services, but I think what's coming through from the leaders of the armed services is a real sense that they're engaged in something that makes a difference to security in Britain, that their forces are (?) with huge intelligence as well as bravery and they want better support from the governments that they're working with and that's what we've got to try and achieve and that's a significant part of the Foreign Office's job.
INTERVIEWER: You're going to have to sign this European Treaty in Lisbon this week. Has Gordon Brown dropped you in it, making excuses…
DAVID MILIBAND: Two people would have gone anyway, so there's no….there's no problem on that score. Look, these things happen. There's a diary clash. He's due to be in front of the Liaison Committee on Thursday. I mean Gordon is brilliant but he can't be in two places at once. And the….
INTERVIEWER: He's not doing a Macavity on this?
DAVID MILIBAND: He's certainly not and the…the government's case about the Reform Treaty is that it ends the institutional obsession of the European Union and allows it to get on with the serious stuff like Kosovo, like security threats, which in the end are going to decide whether or not the European Union is a place of security and prosperity.
INTERVIEWER: Finally, you are the one man who made it easy for Gordon Brown to become Prime Minister, deciding that you weren't going to run against him when you had strong support within the party. Looking at the state of the Labour Party now, do you still think that was the right decision?
DAVID MILIBAND: Absolutely. 100%. I mean Gordon Brown is…was 5 months ago and is today the right man for 2007, 2008 and 2009. And I think the judgement I made, which is that he's got the values and the determination and the experience to make a difference to the country, is absolutely right and nothing has happened to make me change my mind.
INTERVIEWER: David Miliband, thank you very much indeed.
DAVID MILIBAND: Thank you.
DAVID MILIBAND, FOREIGN SECRETARY: Good morning. Well we've been very clear that without a compromise we need to move forward on the basis of the UN plan, which gave what was called supervised independence to Kosovo, a continuing UN, Nato and EU role but over 90% of Kosovars want independence. They want their own autonomy and the UN set up a political process in the late 1990s to try to bridge the gap between the two sides. That seems to have failed and so we now need to make sure that European nations show real leadership on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: Because the problem is, as you say, there hasn't been agreement. The Russians are basically backing the Serbian position and therefore even this idea of supervised independence is no longer on the table and the Kosovans are saying well possibly within the next few weeks they are going to declare independence which is….
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it very much is….it very much is on the table because the Un study, which took 15 months to pull all the sides together, put it on the table and no one's taken it off the table. And the UN Secretary General himself said that the status quo is unsustainable. And I think we all remember from the mid-1990s those terrible scenes in the Balkans, the slaughter in Sarajevo, in Srebrenica, and we saw the dangers then of standing at the side, wringing our hands, hoping for the best and pretending it was nothing to do with us. Actually it is to do with us. It's Europe's backyard and that's why I'll be in Brussels tomorrow with all the other European Foreign Ministers saying that this is a test for Europe's….
INTERVIEWER: Yes but I'm still not clear what you're saying though. What is the timetable you're saying? By what stage should there be…..
DAVID MILIBAND: Well tomorrow….tomorrow is the last day at which the negotiators, the mediators finish their work. They will report to the UN and say very, very clearly that they haven't been able to bridge the gaps between the two sides. The Kosovars themselves have said that they're not going to take pre-emptive action. There's not going to be a Kosovar Embassy in every capital in the world on December 11th but I believe that we can't just leave this issue and pretend it isn't there. There are risk of inaction in Kosovo. We've seen that before and I've said both to the Serbs and the Serbian Foreign Minister obviously this week and also the Kosovars that this needs to be done with the international community not in a chaotic and undisciplined way.
INTERVIEWER: But you heard…you heard those words I quoted at the beginning from the Serbian Foreign Ministry. I mean they are threatening war on this. There are 16,000 Nato troops there. I mean are we going to see fighting….
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I was very surprised by those comments when they came out on Thursday because they go right against what the Serbian Prime Minister has said, the President have said directly to the international mediators and I think that those comments have been at least in part disowned. All sides have said that they will not resort to violence. There are 16,000 Nato troops, about 160, 150, 160 British troops out of the 16,000 and the most important thing is that they prevent fighting rather than have to intervene to stop it but they are there for both eventualities.
INTERVIEWER: And they are prepared to fight?
DAVID MILIBAND: They are there to well ensure the safety of the civilians because we saw the slaughter in the 1990s and we can't just pretend that there isn't a history there. There is and we've seen that it's a very bloody history and it's right on our backyard.
INTERVIEWER: Moving on, we had some pretty stunning intelligence really from the United States this week on the whole question of Iran, a suggestion that Iran has actually stopped its nuclear weapons programme back in 2003/2004. Is Britain therefore continuing to press for tougher sanctions against Iran?
DAVID MILIBAND: Yes for a very simple reason – I mean it's really important that people understand that the intelligence estimate that came out this week talked about the weaponisation part of nuclear weapons programme – one of three parts. If the Iranians have stopped the weaponisation part, good, but there are two other critical parts to a nuclear weapons programme – the enrichment, which we know is going on because they boast about it, and secondly the missile testing. And as long as those elements are continuing then we cannot stand aside. It's very, very important that the international community shows that diplomacy can have teeth.
INTERVIEWER: Well nobody's suggesting you stand aside but I mean Britain has been, along with other Europeans, hanging on George Bush's coattails and he appears to have got it wrong.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it's nothing to do…no, no.
INTERVIEWER: Is it some kind of gesture towards the Iranians, saying 'Look we've been accusing you of doing this. We now don't think…our own side doesn't think you're doing it and perhaps diplomacy would be….'
DAVID MILIBAND: No, no, it's not. Well we are pursuing diplomacy but hear what I say. The enrichment programme continues. The missile testing continues. The American intelligence estimate says that the weaponisation part has stopped. It would be quite the wrong signal for us to say now that the Iranians are in compliance with UN demands. They're not but there is a very clear offer to Iran. It's not about a punishment strategy. There's a very clear set of incentives which not just us but actually the whole of the European community and the Americans and the Russians and the Chinese signed up for last year, which is if the Iranians stop their nuclear enrichment, freeze their enrichment programme, the opportunity is there for them for economic, scientific, technological co-operation, even for civilian nuclear power as long as there's no chance it will lead to nuclear weapons, which is a very dangerous arms race that it holds in prospect in the Middle East.
INTERVIEWER: You mentioned the Russians and the Chinese. I mean this latest American intelligence, they aren't going to support any further clampdown are they?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I'm surprised to hear you say that since the Chinese Foreign Minister was here on Wednesday. We had long talks about this. He addressed it publicly. The Russians and the Chinese are committed to a strategy that was set out in September and that was without a positive outcome on this enrichment question and a positive outcome on the outstanding issues because remember before 2003 the Iranians were pursing a secret (?) without a positive outcome on those two fronts.
INTERVIEWER: So there would be a further UN resolution? What would Britain like to see now?
DAVID MILIBAND: The next stage is a third UN Council resolution. It would be clear that as soon as the Iranians freeze, we don't have to do ahead with that. But without a freeze, there will be a third resolution which tightens the economic sanctions against Iran precisely because we are committed to a diplomatic solution because the alternatives are far worse.
INTERVIEWER: The Prime Minister was speaking this morning about the British hostages in Iraq. Now obviously this is an extremely sensitive matter. It has been a long time. It has been pretty quiet. What actually has the Foreign Office been doing to get these people freed?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I think it's important that publicity is never confused with activity and especially in a case like this. It's very, very important that we follow a very careful strategy. The distress of the families is going to be huge. It's bad enough to have the hostage taken, to then have the video coming out last week is just going to add huge….has added hugely to the distress. But the whole of the British government is working very, very actively on this. The Prime Minister's statement refers to this and I think it's important that I don't add to what he said. He's chosen his words extremely carefully and spoken for the whole of the British government on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: Is there any cause for optimism I mean from what you hear?
DAVID MILIBAND: It would be quite wrong to give a running commentary on this. This is a very dangerous situation and I think it would be quite wrong for me to start raising hopes one way or the other. What I do want to say is that we are working very, very actively on this issue.
INTERVIEWER: You say you're working actively but I mean there is this allegation in the Mail on Sunday today which is coming from Lord Ahmed saying Miliband tried to stop teddy bear teacher's rescue mission in Sudan.
DAVID MILIBAND: It's not coming from Lord Ahmed and it's nonsense. I mean the idea that I tried to stop Baroness Warsi and Lord Ahmed going is completely….
INTERVIEWER: You didn't object to the fact that she was a Tory frontbencher?
DAVID MILIBAND: It's complete nonsense. It's absolute nonsense and the people who I talk to on both sides of the political spectrum know it is nonsense that I tried to stop her from going.
INTERVIEWER: I mean Lord Ahmed does appear to have said in a BBC interview that he didn't feel that he was getting the encouragement and support to go out that he might have expected.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I spoke to….I spoke to Lord Ahmed several times. He got full support from our Embassy in Khartoum and what's more he and I agreed when the conclusion was reached for Mrs Gibbons…because one of the most important things is that Mrs Gibbons is back…
INTERVIEWER: Well.
DAVID MILIBAND: She's actually back in the safety of her. Well actually in way I care less about who gets the credit than the fact that she is back. The important thing is this was a team effort and Lord Ahmed and I both agreed it was a team effort and I think the officials in Khartoum who worked incredibly hard on this with officials in London don't deserve this sort of party political stuff. It's nonsense.
INTERVIEWER: So you never said “Well you know it might be better since she's only got a few days to serve if she just….”
DAVID MILIBAND: No, quite…that is quite, absolute nonsense. I utterly reject the idea that at any stage we tried to stop them going. I was engaged in intensive negotiations myself with the Sudanese Ambassador here, with the Sudanese Acting Foreign Minister in Sudan and there was no…the suggestion that we tried to stop this private visit is quite wrong. But the Sudanese were clear and we were clear that it was a comp….it was complementary to British government activity. It wasn't a….an activity of the British government. The Sudanese wanted that and we were clear about that.
INTERVIEWER: So I apologise for dotting around the world a little bit….
DAVID MILIBAND: That's my job.
INTERVIEWER: There's an awful lot going on. I wonder if you can put us in the picture a little bit on Afghanistan?
DAVID MILIBAND: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: I mean 2001, successful invasion, the ousting of the Taliban government yet this year I think 6,000 deaths, the highest level since 2001 overall recorded in Afghanistan. Now we appear to have a….Musa Qala, a fairly major conflict going on. I mean are we winning?
DAVID MILIBAND: I think there's been major gains because this time last year if I'd been on this programme you would have quoted to me leading Taliban commanders saying the spring offensive will drive back the British in Helmand Province. That hasn't happened. We have suffered tragic deaths of British soldiers but every single military encounter we have won. The challenge is to build a decent society that can look after its own affairs and that's what we're trying….
INTERVIEWER: Well we're not yet victorious are we?
DAVID MILIBAND: Exactly. Let me just make the point about Musa Qala because that is being led by the Afghan National Army with very strong support from British troops. Our job there is to build up the Afghan National Army, the Afghan police force and the Afghan political and economic institutions so that they can look after their own affairs. The Prime Minister is going to make a statement in the House of Commons this week, showing how we are suggesting a change of gear on this to recognise the new situation. Because the Taliban have been beaten back in 2007, they're adopting new terrorist tactics and we have to respond to that. We have to respond to that partly in a military way but this is never going to be won by military action alone. It needs a social, an economic, and a political strategy with the Afghan government.
INTERVIEWER: Because I mean the problem in Afghanistan is that the countries are fighting at very different military rules of engagement. I mean Britain we know, Canada, the United States, one or two other countries have taken heavy casualties yet the bulk of the Europeans are doing very little at all.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it's certainly true that in Helmand Province we are in the lead, in Kandahar it's the Canadians…
INTERVIEWER: Engagement.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well it has to do with the north south because some of the troops in the north have so-called caveats on their activity. We want more countries to be playing a role in Afghanistan. One of the things we're going to be….the Prime Minister will talk about this week in his statement is about the role of other countries. Actually the new Polish government made clear they want to increase their force there which is obviously a good thing.
INTERVIEWER: Because they want to come out of Iraq?
DAVID MILIBAND: No, no. I mean that's actually not….not right.
INTERVIEWER: I mean they link the two?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well no. I mean the new Polish Foreign Minister actually has a long record of interest in Afghanistan and he recognises the centrality to safety in Western Europe.
INTERVIEWER: But if we take it overall, we hear commanders talking about a generation-long commitment in Afghanistan, something you presumably agree with.
DAVID MILIBAND: Certainly generation-long if you look across the piece at economic, social and military. I wouldn't….I'm not committing myself today to a generation-long military engagement.
INTERVIEWER: You know we've talked about unrest in Kosovo, we all know what's going on in Iraq. Whether they're current generals or previous generals, they've got a point haven't they? I mean New Labour seems to ask the military to do a lot more than New Labour is prepared to pay for.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I don't accept that. I think that the government, New Labour, faces a world which has new security threats. Remember in the 1990s, when I was involved in the 1997 manifesto, if you talked about terrorism people thought of the IRA. That was basically it. Now if you talk about terrorism, people realise we're in a different world. So it is the circumstances I think that…. Nobody denies that the threat has increased but the problem has changed I think.
INTERVIEWER: Well I mean it's more expensive isn't it? It was less expensive fighting the IRA than it is fighting the Taliban or al-Qaeda. No, my point is that over that period as a proportion of government spending defence has gone down pretty dramatically.
DAVID MILIBAND: In the end I don't want to get into just trading statistics but what has happened is that for the first time since the Cold War defence spending has started to rise. There will always be arguments about this. It's always right that we….because we ask a lot of our armed forces we support them.
INTERVIEWER: But we're not giving them priority are we?
DAVID MILIBAND: Well I'm surprised that you say that because there have been real terms increases in.
INTERVIEWER: Yes but if you look at its share of the national cake, defence is getting less at a time when it's being asked to do more.
DAVID MILIBAND: Well defence spending has been rising, which I think has….significantly on the personnel side but there are big capital needs as well for infrastructure and that obviously is very, very demanding on the budget. I think that of course there are changes in the deployment of forces. There have been huge demands in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. We are asking a lot and we're committed to making sure that…
INTERVIEWER: Yes, I mean I suppose what I'm asking, you've come to this brief fresh, you are seen as one of the big brains if you like of the New Labour project, of the government. I mean do you think we've got the balance right?
DAVID MILIBAND: I mean you really have to think about this but I think that….and it would be wrong, it would be glib to sit here and say every decision we've made has always been right, no one would believe that. I think that in recognising the rising priority that we put on defence, in recognising the rising demands in defence, we have put extra money in. You can always say that there is a case for going further in any area, whether it be health, education or the armed services, but I think what's coming through from the leaders of the armed services is a real sense that they're engaged in something that makes a difference to security in Britain, that their forces are (?) with huge intelligence as well as bravery and they want better support from the governments that they're working with and that's what we've got to try and achieve and that's a significant part of the Foreign Office's job.
INTERVIEWER: You're going to have to sign this European Treaty in Lisbon this week. Has Gordon Brown dropped you in it, making excuses…
DAVID MILIBAND: Two people would have gone anyway, so there's no….there's no problem on that score. Look, these things happen. There's a diary clash. He's due to be in front of the Liaison Committee on Thursday. I mean Gordon is brilliant but he can't be in two places at once. And the….
INTERVIEWER: He's not doing a Macavity on this?
DAVID MILIBAND: He's certainly not and the…the government's case about the Reform Treaty is that it ends the institutional obsession of the European Union and allows it to get on with the serious stuff like Kosovo, like security threats, which in the end are going to decide whether or not the European Union is a place of security and prosperity.
INTERVIEWER: Finally, you are the one man who made it easy for Gordon Brown to become Prime Minister, deciding that you weren't going to run against him when you had strong support within the party. Looking at the state of the Labour Party now, do you still think that was the right decision?
DAVID MILIBAND: Absolutely. 100%. I mean Gordon Brown is…was 5 months ago and is today the right man for 2007, 2008 and 2009. And I think the judgement I made, which is that he's got the values and the determination and the experience to make a difference to the country, is absolutely right and nothing has happened to make me change my mind.
INTERVIEWER: David Miliband, thank you very much indeed.
DAVID MILIBAND: Thank you.
