Thank you for bringing this to FDL Movie Night!

Could you comment on what folks (respectfully) call “Christopagans” ( or variants thereof)? I’ve met and read of good folks folks who seem to have arrived thereabouts from both “sides”… Setting aside the surface Abramic monotheist vs pagan/polytheist dichotomy, the peeps I’ve encountered seemed quite vibrant and centered in their syncretism (syncretia?) I’d love to know more (bought one book, not very helpful…)

BBC News web site now saying “a lot of speculation” re ID suspects and “we will let you know as soon as we get any confirmation”.

So hoping first report from beeb was in error.

BBC World Have Your Say said both suspects are from Chechen region of Russia and have been in US for approx one year. BBC News web site cites AP re this @ 1148 (Greenwich, presumably) time.

I

CT, as ever, you are too kind! Mahalo, my friend – wonderful to see you here, as well.

David, thank you for your years of work and effort on this and for being here today.

Brian, thank you for taking the time to host today.

Bev, thank you again for making the Book Salons possible.

Happy Spring to all – and for those who celebrate, Happy Easter, Happy Passover, and Happy Ostara!

Yikes. Raising kids to have no empathy is so cruel – for the kids and those they grow up to be around. (Of curse, I’m not saying this to excuse the predators: nothing can.)

Thanks – as soon as I’ve seen off the delinquent chart pile, I’ll be settling in to learn from you. Once again, kudos for doing this work: these people and their “movement” disturbs me so greatly that I can’t imagine hanging in there to alert us all as you have done for so long. Good on ‘ya.

David, I apologize that I’ve yet to read your book (though I’m looking forward to it).

The following doesn’t excuse Shawna Forde, but there’s a host of evidence that early childhood trauma tweaks brain structures governing emotional reactivity over to the direction of fearful / intense responses. Procon.org did a 2012 summary of various studies in a post: Differences in conservative and liberal brains. The summary included a study finding that in conservatives there is – compared to libs – heightened activity in the right amygdala, which serves (roguhly speaking) as a “fear center” in the brain.

In all of your years of researching and writing about the violent far right/conservatives, have you come across info comparing the incidence of childhood abuse/neglect (now summed up as “Adverse Childhood Experiences” – or ACE – in PubMed and the like) in that poulation vs the rest of the populace?

And if you’ve addressed this in the book, I do apologize….

David, welcome back!

Thanks and gratitude to you for looking into these terrifying and dangerous people and warning us of this peril.

And thanks to Brian for hosting – and as ever to Bev for making the Salons possible.

Chad and Alex, thanks for getting down and in with Joe and coming out the side to give us a look.

Waterkitty, you were perfect: so good to see you again.

And Bev, thank you for making this and all the Salons happen.

Would you share Joe’s positions on sexually transmitted disease?

..and what’s Diamond’s favorite “play” name?

Shaved, waxed, or Mr. Natural?

Bev, thank you once again for creating yet another excellent Book Salon!

And thanks to Trevor for his labore and taking the time to be here and to Marcy for hosting and bringing her steel trap mind to this issue.

Trevor, thank you for your research and for shining light on this dark corner. I am looking forward to reading your book!

If you have already addressed this, apologies for the redundancy….

In the 90′s the non-violent forest / enviro activists on the West Coast noticed their open encampments / campaigns were attracting very buff young men with no visible means of support who would travel from region to region, advocating violence/major property destruction and thoroughly disrupting the social cohesion of what were fairly well functioning groups. My protoypical example was “Turqoise” aks John Glass aka Jason Farquahar. He first materialized at the 1997 Headwaters Protests, where he volunteered as a “medic”, in which capacity he advocated using pot for every malady to the point that it bothered the locals…in Humboldt County. He later popped up in the Wild Rockies camp, ad high tech radios there started disappearing. After he “borrowed” a core medics car and trashed her ride, leaving it in a field, the camp tld him he had to go. They drove him to the local Greyhond – and stayed around to observe men in suits and shiny late model car(s) pick him up.

After he left, the activists found very sophisticated high frequency monitoring gear had appeared at that site.

He next showed up at the August 2000 DNC protests, which we were organzing from a five story building we’d rented for the ocasion. We were able to keep it open because of a Federal Judge’s court order forbidding pre-emptive shut downs (as had happened at the April 2000 IMF/WB protests in DC- our puppet ans med supplies were polcie property until just after the protests ended).

Turqoise showed up and asked for me. (our security knew who he was from postings at that time…) He said he had some really great radios for the medics – and he needed a ride from downtown LA to Pomona to pick ups “really good weed for everyone” . Pounds of it, he said.

Of course, anyone who got in the car with him and headed east would immediately have been participating in multiple Federal felonies – immediately satisfying the Federal Judge’s stringent criteria for shutdown. We’d already gone to great lengths to make sure there was no illegal substance use in the building: having LAPD copters spotlighting you at night while units deploy in near blockade tends to concentrate even stoners’ minds.

As planned, once he gave his pitch we kicked him out and permanently excluded him. IIRC, he found ways to make trouble n the streets for the next few days, but didn’t have the opportunity to do major damage.

Headwaters is not on Federal (or State) property. [It wasn't hen - the part we saved is now BLM, but htat was later]. The Wild Rockies campaign was on USFS, but then and now even teh worst excesses of the USFS LEO’s never featured this sort of entrapment. And the DNC convergence space was in LA, with the nearest USFS land being in the Angeles FOrest atop LA’s mountains.

Only Fed agency with the scope to be moving Turqoise around from Humboldt to the Rockies to Pico Union would be the FBI.

Since this sort of thing was going on before 911 – and before some eco-activits hived off as “the Family” and began to do overt property destruction – , I’d love to know if in your book or your future research you may be looking at the history of the FBI’s pre 911 campaigns against mass non violent civil disobedience.

Apologies for long question.

And here’s the more:

According to the S500 standard, biocide use (in combination with cleaning and removal) should be considered when:

 Drying will be too slow to prevent microbial growth.

[p 19]

 Pathogenic organisms are present.

The standard also notes that the use of biocides might be precluded if:

 The sanitizers to be used (e.g., chlorine-based formulations, alcohol, peroxide, or quaternary ammonium compounds) require that soiled surfaces be cleaned first.

 The risk from exposure to the biocide is comparable or greater than the risk from exposure to the organism.

To aid in selection of an appropriate biocide, the S500 standard includes the table presented here as table 5.

What Table 5 shows is that the only two disinfectants not inactivated by organic matter (as in Category 3 water from Sandy) are:

- glutaraldeyhde: insanely dangerous to even consider using.

and….

- phenolics: “toxic, irritant, corrosive” per S500′s Table 5.

What’s a phenolic disinfectant? Per teh wiki:

Phenolics

Phenolics are active ingredients in some household disinfectants. They are also found in some mouthwashes and in disinfectant soap and handwashes.

Phenol is probably the oldest known disinfectant as it was first used by Lister, when it was called carbolic acid. It is rather corrosive to the skin and sometimes toxic to sensitive people. Impure preparations of phenol were originally made from coal tar, and these contained low concentrations of other aromatic hydrocarbons including benzene, which is an IARC Group 1 carcinogen.

o-Phenylphenol is often used instead of phenol, since it is somewhat less corrosive.

Chloroxylenol is the principal ingredient in Dettol, a household disinfectant and antiseptic.

Hexachlorophene is a phenolic that was once used as a germicidal additive to some household products but was banned due to suspected harmful effects.

Thymol, derived from the herb thyme, is the active ingredient in some “broad spectrum” disinfectants that bears ecological claims.

Amylmetacresol is found in Strepsils, a throat disinfectant.

Although not a phenol, 2,4-dichlorobenzyl alcohol has similar effects as phenols, but it cannot inactive viruses.

OK – what does this mean for practical safety purposes? Well, everything with a “chlor” in it it above is a chlorinated hydrocarbon. This entire category of molecules should be considered to cause cancer, mutations, and birth defects until a few generations of observation proves otherwise.

Also, aromatic hydrocarbons should also be avoided. They’ve been recognized as toxic since at least 1942. Phenol is simply a subset of aromatic hydrocarbon (subset: hydroxylated aromatic hydrocarbon). The most notorious phenol is the endocrine disruptor Bisphenol A (BPA). I’d avoid the whole group of phenols if possible: they have not been proven to be free of a whole raft of nasty consequences.

Thymol‘s fine in my food, but the amounts required to wash down walls would scare the crap out of me. It’s another phenol with side chains that will help it dissolve into our fatty tissues. Yum.

Amylmetacresol’s yet another phenol derivative. In tiny doses it’s in throat lozenges. Using it as a cleaner would give massive exposure. I couldn’t find data on exposure to those amounts…

So…

From the s500 recs, nothing looks a usable biocide for the vast majority of direct Sandy water damage I could imagine. That’s pretty sucky.

I wish the s500 recs had looked at efficacy of borax and vinegar and TSP and the like. I’m guessing that somewhere there’s a well references study of borates’ efficacy/toxicity for these tasks, as well as studies of vinegar/acetic acid and TSP.

But Squall’s hungry again, so it’s time to nuke some more rillete.

From I recall from Katrina folks who returned to SF, Gnome De Plume has the best RX: rip out everything that’s been touched (save concrete and brick and the like).

Good luck with what you all are doing and with your health and safety – and good on ‘ya, RF and Occupy Sandy.

And thank you again RF for your eloquence and your work.

Now off to nuke the goodies….

What a great resource! Thank you for educating me – and thank you for your eloquence and your work with Occupy Sandy.

I had a few minutes to poke around the various and mutually contradictory recs from various Federal agencies re post flood clean up. Confusing even on the surface – and even within a single agency, the inner tubes give mutually contradictory recs over time.

This 2009 “Flood-Related Cleaning draft report prepared for the EPA seems to attempt to look at the set of recs from all the Federal agencies re post-flood clean up. I hope it may prove useful for Occupy Sandy’s already awesome data base. The report was written after Katrina. If I’m understanding the authors, the report draws upon responses to techniques/recs used for Katrina….

Here are a few excerpts….

Exec summary:

This document addresses approaches to cleaning up residences flooded after a hurricane or other weather event. It is based on a literature search conducted using PubMed, Science Direct, the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report search engines, and the files of the co-authors. The report considers the types of illnesses associated with such flooding; the effectiveness, selection, use, and hazards of biocides for cleaning and decontaminating surfaces affected by the presence of microorganisms and their biofilms; and available guidance documents that provide recommendations for cleaning up after floods, hurricanes, and related events.

The literature search found the occurrence of a wide range of illness and injury due to floods. These adverse health effects include physical injuries such as cuts and abrasions; infections due to contact with contaminated flood water and contaminated surfaces; exposure to non-biological contaminants such as carbon monoxide, heavy metals, and pesticides, which can lead to health impacts; allergic or asthmatic episodes triggered by exposures to mold; and emotional trauma and post-traumatic stress.

….All the guidance documents reviewed in this report agree that a flooded house should be dried quickly. They also agree that porous materials that contact flood water should be removed. And while all recommend the use of water and detergents to clean hard surfaces, they differ on whether bleach and other biocides should be used…..

[emphasis mine - so many of the folks I knew who wnet off to help after Katrina came back with strong sx c/w PTSD and other trauma related responses. So hope the Occupy Sandy volunteers have an opportunity to protect themselves more than what seemed to be the norm for so many who wnet to NOLA to help out....]

Drilling down, the report covers disparate recs re cleaning materials/chemicals:

pg 15:

 Cleaning hard surfaces. All recommend water and detergent, but there are differences regarding the use of disinfectants. The EPA document recommends washing surfaces and provides cautions on the use of disinfectants. The CDC document refers to EPA’s A Brief Guide to Mold and Moisture in your Home for guidance on disinfecting; it recommends using detergent and water or a solution of water and bleach to clean up mold and advises seeking professional help if the area of mold is more than 10 square feet. The FEMA/Red Cross document recommends disinfecting with quaternary ammonium compounds, phenolic, or pine-oil based products and specifies a solution of household bleach as a second choice. The NCHH guide recommends HEPA vacuuming, followed by water and detergent, followed by a solution of household bleach. The S500 standard discusses air- and water-based cleaning in detail; it cautions against the use of biocides, but provides guidance for using them if circumstances warrant…..

 Using bleach. Here again the guidance differs between documents. The EPA fact sheet does not specifically mention bleach, but cautions against the use of biocides and refers to the FEMA/Red Cross guide. CDC recommends cleaning mold with detergent and water or a solution of 1 cup bleach per gallon of water. The FEMA/Red Cross guide shows a preference for disinfectants other than bleach, but allows diluted household bleach as a second choice for surfaces and recommends it for suspect drinking water; the FEMA Hurricane Katrina Recovery Advisories (reviewed later with other federal documents) recommend against using bleach. The NCHH guide recommends the use of diluted household bleach on non-porous hard surfaces after thoroughly cleaning them. The S500 standard extensively discusses biocide selection and use, and it adopts the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists’ policy of avoiding the routine use of biocides.

Tables 3 and 4 on pp 16-18 compare the different recs at greater length. There’s even more detailed discussion on pp 18-19. Who knew there’s an Institute of Inspection, Cleaning, and Restoration Certification?

S500 Standard and Reference Guide for Professional Water Damage Restoration – 2006, Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification (IICRC), http://www.iicrc.org/pdf/buydocs.pdf. The IICRC is the certification body for water restoration professionals. The S500 standard is a consensus document that forms the basis of certification by the Institute. It is the most comprehensive guidance document for cleaning up buildings after a flood. The S500 standard has 88 pages of standard and over 200 pages of reference. It covers water damage restoration, building physics, safety and health, administration of projects, evaluations, specialized experts, structural restoration, HVAC restoration, contents, catastrophic events, biocides, and equipment and tools. It is discussed in more detail later in this section.

(above from pg 14)

The S500 Standard and Reference Guide for Professional Water Damage Restoration – 2006 warrants further discussion. The IICRC has published the S500 standard for restoration after water damage since 1994. The third edition was published in 2006.

This is the only American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standard that specifically addresses cleanup after floods. It is an industry consensus standard with an extensive reference guide explaining and referencing the science behind the standard. The S500 standard categorizes water by levels of contamination….

 Category 3 water is heavily contaminated and can contain pathogens or toxins. Anyone who comes in contact with or consumes Category 3 water risks health impacts. (Examples of Category 3 water are sewage; floods from sea, river or lake; and wind- driven rain from hurricanes.)
The category of water plays a conditional role in remediation. For example, gypsum board may be restorable if the water it contacts is Category 1 or 2, but must be removed if that water is Category 3. By contrast, concrete is generally recoverable when flooded even by Category 3 water.

Chapter 8 of the S500 standard discusses biocides. It discourages the routine use of biocides, but since they may be appropriate in some circumstances, chapter 8 leaves their use to the professional judgment of the restorer. The chapter also refers to guidance from the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), Bioaerosols: Assessment and Control, which recommends that microbial growth be removed by cleaning or removing contaminated materials:

15.4 Biocide Use. Remediators must carefully consider the necessity and advisability of applying biocides when cleaning microbially contaminated surfaces (see 16.2.3). The goal of remediation programs should be the removal of all microbial growth. This generally can be accomplished by physical removal of materials supporting active growth and through cleaning of non-porous materials. Therefore, application of a biocide would serve no purpose that could not be accomplished with a detergent or cleaning agent. Prevention of future microbial contamination should be accomplished by a) avoiding the conditions that lead to past contamination, b) using materials that are not readily susceptible to biodeterioration, and c) where necessary, applying compounds designed to suppress vegetative bacterial and fungal growth or using materials treated with such compounds.

16.2 Biocide Use and Application. Biocide use should not be considered if careful and controlled removal of contaminated material is sufficient to address a problem . . . b) biocide use may play an important role in the remediation of certain conditions (e.g. microbial contamination from sewage backflow into buildings).

The s500 recs appear to be very relevant to post-Sandy flood/”hurricane” contamination. All the flood water and most all horizontally blown/propagated rainwater caused Category 3 damage.

(more to come…)