THE LEFT SHOULDN’T DEFEND ROSS AND BRAND
I was going to write something about the Brand/Ross controversy. It seems to me that the idea that “celebrities” can get away with behaviour that would have any ordinary working person instantly dismised from their job is pernicious.
But just as I was getting started I found that Dave Osler has already written something that I pretty much agree with. I won’t quote his first paragraph becasue I think it is a bit blokeish, but the rest is good. I wouldn’t have said anything different, nor any better, so here is what dave wrote:
Leaving messages boasting of [sex with a woman] on the voicemail on her 78-year-old grandfather’s mobile, while the conversation is being broadcast nationwide, would normally not be considered sexual etiquette comme il faux.
Unsurprisingly, there seems to be a widespread consensus across the political spectrum that the now-infamous ‘prank’ phone calls made by radio presenters Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand to actor Andrew Sachs should lead to their sacking by the BBC. Politicians from Respect’s George Galloway to prime minister Gordon Brown and Tory rightwinger David Davis have been unanimous in condemning the incident.
They are correct to do so. I’m not saying this because I have any problem with controversial entertainers pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, or because I am prudishly shocked by the F-word, or anything like that.
My argument is simply that, despite the huge salaries enjoyed by these two guys – and Ross is said to be on £6m a year – they should still be subject to some element of restraint in how they do their vastly over-remunerated jobs.
I have been a journalist for over 20 years, and although dirty jokes spectacularly studded with the crudest of traditional profanities are no longer as common as they were in the long lunch 1980s, they remain not entirely unknown.
Again, as a union rep, I once defended a workmate who described his line manager in terms that rhyme with the name of Tory media spokesman Jeremy Hunt, albeit in the pub after work. In those circumstances, I successfully argued, what was said was none of the company’s business.
But if me or any of my colleagues were repeatedly to leave outbursts of sexually explicit braggadocio pertaining to family members on a colleague’s voicemail, and did so in work time and on work premises, we would instantly be out the door for gross misconduct. I can see no reason why double standards should apply.
Incidentally, Ross once justified his stupendously inflated pay packet with the line that he was ‘worth a thousand BBC journalists’. The latest antics of this guy and his pal underline just how far that claim was off the mark.
I
Hopefully the left have better things to do than spend time on this non-event. Pathetic thing to even blog about.
I don’t have a problem with George Galloway making quotes on this, because you sometimes have to say populist things to become popular. And you have to be popular to get elected. And Respect, in contrast to the rest of the socialist left outside Labour, is serious about getting elected. So, George Galloway getting himself in the papers saying things that most working people will agree with should be welcomed by us. (And he is right about that twat Ross, if he can’t be fired, can he be fined by the Beeb like a footballer by his club? Say £5.99 million?)
HOWEVER, this matter is pretty bloody trivial, and so I wanted to bring everybody going on this site today’s attention to the “Beijing Declaration” by organisations working within the Global Justice Movement and the World Social Forum – The global financial crisis: an historic opportunity for social transformation.
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/The-Beijing-Declaration-Another
Britain’s contributor was Red Pepper’s Hilary Wainwright and it is a vital first step to organising at the global scale to resist the attacks on us that will come when the bill for the bailouts needs to be paid.
And that’s got to be more worth discussing than “Wossy” ??
2. AM… I disagree [respectfully] with you on this matter. Andy rather precisely situated the Ross Brand debate in the context of the experience of ordinary workers and gave specific examples of how trade unionists and socialist deal with abusive behaviour in the workplace.
Even more important for socialists to consider is how a “popular” culture which tolerates increasingly cynical forms of humour impacts on our day to day work to elevate society.
Issues of ‘morality’ are raised by this debate.
It is not ‘a pathetic thing to even blog about’ because if we [as socialists] abstain from the debate about morality or the direction of culture in this country then we hand over this entire territory lock stock and barrel to other forces.
We need to have a balanced perspective but one that does decisively take the ‘moral high ground’.
But in the process he spoke of his behaviour at an earlier charity conference in Greece. Bemused journalists listened as Mr Galloway emphasised the “carnal knowledge” he had experienced.
Since the death of Mary Whitehouse, founder president of what became the National Viewers and Listeners Association, it seems there is a role that Galloway and Respect can fulfill and who knows there may even be some vote’s init?
#4 …Sinner.. you raise an interesting point there… As the Wikipedia entry on George Galloway says ”
Asked about a War on Want conference on Mykonos, Greece during his previous job, the new MP Galloway notoriously replied “I travelled to and spent lots of time with people in Greece, many of whom were women, some of whom were known carnally to me. I actually had sexual intercourse with some of the people in Greece.”[23] The statement put Galloway on the front pages of the tabloid press and in February 1988 the Executive Committee of his Constituency Labour Party passed a vote of no confidence in him.”
What you will notice here is that 20 years ago George did not ‘name’ any of the “people in Greece…whom were know carnally to me”…. let alone us a radio show to phone up there grandparents with graphic description of the said carnality.
Ross and Brand…. are in many ways interesting and attactive individuals this is obviously why they are celebrities… both of them in the past have situated themselves [vaguely] to the left of the political spectrum. I still like Ross and was watching him on a special Film 2008 on the new Bond film “Quantum of Solace”.
George [sometimes refered to as "gorgeous"] Galloway… is an interesting individual…. who provokes controversy… but to my knowledge he has for the most part acted as a gentleman despite the numerous attempts at assasination he has had to deal with.
If Ross and Brand loose their jobs… their “Quantum of Solace” will remain loads of money and continued celebrity….
If George Galloway Looses Popular and Limehouse at the next Genearl Election that would be a defeat for the Left.
#5 Good idea, Jim
And meanwhile, to keep yourself busy, here’s some free studio tickets for Wossy’s next show, you can really have a good laugh and cheer yourself up. What a guy. He’s hysterical – and well worth £6m per year of your money.
Where should we aim our moral outrage, comrades:
“Tony Blair’s earnings since leaving Downing Street are calculated to have topped £12 million, more than six times his previous lifetime income.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5034235.ece
Now this is truly disgusting and distasteful. A man is benefiting financially from the [War] crimes he has committed.
This whole attack on Brand/Ross is highly suspicious. Galloway is in good company with Melanie Philips, Nadine Dorries, Kelvin McKenzie, Richard Littlejohn etc.
I haven’t noticed any of the Left rushing to defend Brand and Ross’s behaviour, so the title is a bit of a Don Quixote and the Windmills riff from Andy N.
Love & Rage,
Adamski
#8 Sean… I totally agree with you about Blair… unfortunately the current media controversy is not around prosecuting Blair for his war crimes but about Ross and Brands behaviour and whether they should face sanctions….
Some of the people joining in the ‘attack’ on Brand and Ross are not suprisingly on the right of the political spectrum…. Nethertheless….
Salma Yaqoob lead the charge to expose the manipulation of postal votes in Birmingham and has since been joined by all political forces in Birmingham left, right and centre…. just because an ‘moral’ arguement wins the support of those on the Right of the political spectrum does not alter the correctness of the original position taken.
What do you think Sean?
I think the main point is the culture of bullying, and a humour which is directed against targets lower down the hierarchy rather then higher. Mainstream politicians who pontificate on matters of vulgarity while at the same time equating economic reform with choice (from hospitals to broadcasting), it should go without saying, should be taken seriously by none. Contra to strategists point about populism and electoralism, if I have any critique of George (I’m not greatly excercised) its not fully drawing out these connections, and using the opportunity to explain both the reasons why this kind of trash exists and the wider politics (as well as hypocrisy) of the reaction to it.
#11 if I have any critique of George (I’m not greatly excercised) its not fully drawing out these connections, and using the opportunity to explain both the reasons why this kind of trash exists and the wider politics (as well as hypocrisy) of the reaction to it.
Fair point, johng, but he presumably had to do a very quick calculation about whether his comments would get aired in the mainstream media, including the redtops/Metros he is after. And too long or too preachy and he would get nowt.
The point stands that of the left, I think only George & Ken Livingstone can get themselves quoted in the tabloids, and get the profile that comes with that. The system stinks, what can you do? Well Respect’s strategy is to get elected in tree seats on the back of a high profile for George and popular support from the working class of the East End. It’s dirty work, but thank God someone’s still doing it. The SWP know this – they grafted hard enough when still in Respect as anyone could see.
No complaints that the SWP now sees its priorities elsewhere, and in fact let’s hope they are entirely complementary to Respect’s with no points of conflict.
#11 johng… interesting….what do you think and feel are the ‘connections’ and ‘reasons why this kind of trash exists and the wider politics []of the reaction to it”?
#12 That’s three seats, by the way. (Although you might get better odds from the late Ian Mikardo on tree seats…)
#9
“I haven’t noticed any of the Left rushing to defend Brand and Ross’s behaviour, so the title is a bit of a Don Quixote and the Windmills riff from Andy N.”
Except that on another thread on this blog a number of comments have been made from people on the left defending Ross and Brand,
#14 Correcting my correction. It’s two seats in the East End, and one in Birmingham. All winnable in the climate that may prevail at the general election, if Respect can establish itself as the lead challenger to New Labour between now & then.
Ha! Here’s fiver that says Respect can do it. I’m going to take that bastard Mikardo to the cleaners. He’ll wish he wasn’t dead…
Well, if the left aren’t going to put forward socialist solutions to the current financial crisis they might as well plump for their favourite opption: a ruddy good police state.
If ordinary people couldn’t get away with what celebrities get away with surely it would be better if they could rather than reduce our celebrities to some Stalinist-style TV newsreaders.
#14 Strategist…. yes three seats…. however RESPECT should aim to take its ‘moral’ message to the ‘tree seats’ as well…. you the ones with loads of trees!
#15.. Andy Newperson..yes I did come across quiet a few comments defending Ross and Brand… on other threads… What is interesting is that on a TV vox pop.. street interview thing last night there appeared to be a clear division based on age between those tolerant of Ross and Brand and those calling for them to be sacked. Maybe that generational division is relected in Sociality Unity contributors. Strategist could do a useful statistical analysis on this phenomenon if all contributors put their ages do during this discussion.
Ok abu…. I think they should be suspend on no pay from all BBC broadcasting. they are rude. I think moral pressure should be put on the other TV channels not to offer alternative employment. The period of the suspension should be 3 months.
Here comes the dictatorship of the anal retentive. Get over it, let it go. Do you really want to come home at night and listen to wall to wall patriotic music and endless lectures on frugality?
It should be noted that Galloway went further on his show than calling for the Millionaire Two to lose their jobs, he agreed with a couple of his callers that they should be prosecuted under the laws against obscene calls. If you don’t believe me I understand you can find the shows at http://www.georgegalloway.com. As I said before, to equate those calls with malicious harassment calls which cause distress to thousands of people every year is to cheapen their experience for some pretty low political ends.
Michael Rosen on The Wright Stuff this morning correctly pointed out that if there is a fault it is likely to be among the BBC producers who didn’t properly vet the show. But then faceless people at the BBC don’t make such a convenient target for a moral panic. Michael Rosen did say that the guidelines on ringing people up seem to have been broken. But why should this be a hanging offence?
#17.. Politics.. The problems with british society are huge and being brought into focus by the economic crisis. One of the problems is that people do get away with all sorts of abusive behaviou in daily life…. workplace bullying is rife in the Uk and Unions seem totally unable to act and employers and managers turn a blind eye or back up the bullies in our culture….
I am not saying Ross and Brand are ‘bullies’ but what they did was hurtfull and wrong and they should be accountable.
In common usage in our children’s playgrounds are terms that degrade people and are repeated millions of times a day with no one batting an eyelid…
Gay this Gay that, paki this paki that, the lanquage is appalling ‘fuck this and fuck that and fuck you”….
I do no want a police state I want a democratic state with a socialist economy where people … all people RESPECT each other.
There’s the bandwagon and there’s George Galloway jumping on it. Has SUN blogged about the 8 people killed in Syria by the US the other day, 4 of whom were children, or do you reserve your “anger” for inane rubbish that we are told to get hysterical about by the likes of Brown, Cameron and the Sun newspaper?
Shahida: I understand but Ross and Brand are not the BNP and neither are they purveyors of the politics of hate. Actually they mercilessly take the piss out of celebrity culture. In any case, when you are recording a `zany’ show you record it so that you can edit out the inevitable excesses. It looks to me that Ross and Brand put too much faith in the editors at the BBC some of whom have a nasty agenda against genuinely popular youth entertainers and are ultra-conservative in their views. Nothing would suit them better than playing endless repeats of the changing of the guard.
#21…skidmarx… Folk Devils and Moral Panics…. Galloway of all the ‘celebrities’ knows what it is like to be subject to a variety of moral panics and becoming a minor folk devil.
I think he decision to take this stance is based on ‘morals’.
For my part having been the viticm of harrassment and malicous phone calls and violence from a former partner and having the police take no action. I am in favour of the enforcement of laws to protect the vulnerable and to bring to account people who are parasitic on others in society.
This whole episode is just a small storm in a small tea cup. But why has it taken on such proportions?
mark anthony france: “Just because an ‘morall’ arguement wins the support of those on the Right of the political spectrum does not alter the correctness of the original position taken.
What do you think?”
I agree. Some on the right were against the Iraq war but for entirely different reason than most of the left. However, those now joining in on this free-for-all against Brand/Ross – especially from The Scum and Der Sturmer – (the Mail) are involved in faux moral outrage to attack the whole premise of public broadcasting.
Also, the aggrieved young woman involved has lost all integrity in my eyes by going and talking to The Scum.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1867800.ece
The article contains this sinister call by the newspaper to its readers:
“Do you know Georgina?
If so call the newsdesk”
I wonder what they’ll would do with the information they receive?
If you sup with the devil, you need a large spoon…and all that malarky.
Jonathan Ross – Bit nervous about losing some cash but pretty sure it’s Brand they’re really after.
Russell Brand – Not too bothered, most contracts are with Channel 4 and can make piles of cash in America.
Gordon Brown – Happy to engage in some drivel that takes attention away from recession and job losses.
David Cameron – “Appealing to the Tory base”.
Andrew Sachs – Somewhat bemused but relatively unconcerned.
Georgina Bailey – Happily scramblimg to sign every photo-shoot offer that comes her way from The Sun, Nuts, Zoo etc.
George Galloway – Slipping further into rambling populist demagogy.
Andy Newman – Ought to know better.
Ross was famously on £18 million from the BBC, not £6 million.
This has dominated the news so much that by the time Gordon Brown waded in (puh-leaze!) I was wondering what the bad news was they wanted burying.
Oh yes, I remember. Capitalism in meltdown.
I notice Boris Johnson of all people has called on the premier league clubs in London to pay their staff more money (ie the cleaners and so on). Does this mean we oppose it?
It’s hard times coming and I suspect there will be much more of a spotlight on the over-inflated salaries of the likes of Ross (and premier league footballers – some of whom earn £130,000 per week. That’s more than some low paid workers will earn in 7 or 8 YEARS assuming a wage of £14,000 a year – not uncommon).
It would be marvellous if we all went to work and everyone was talking about the Iraq war – but they’re not.
But people are talking about the economic crisis – and also talking about this incident. It’s not an either / or.
We don’t get to choose the terrain we argue in – but I agree with Johng – we need to try and draw out all the connections where we can.
Newman has only kicked this thread off to justify the latest populist drivel from his Glorious Leader.
I think it is worth defending. As someone who enjoys comedy, satire, and even biggotted jokes (who doesn’t?), I think we have to defend behaviour that goes “too far.”
The Left’s greatest mistake of the 1990s was abandonning Salman Rushdie, an issue which the Right then seized, and have been targetting us ever since.
We must defend all forms of satire, even if it does go “too far.”
#30…I agree with your assessments of the characters involved in this saga with the exception of the last two.
George Galloway…. has clearly lead on this matter and did not initiate or jump on any bandwagon of popular moral outrage… I haven’t heard his show.. but I imagine he took a position based on his own feelings and beliefs and this has proven to be the position of millions of other people.
Andy I imagine posted the edited verson of Dave Oslers writting on this which clearly focused on how trade unionists deal with abusive behaviour in the workplace… and how “celebrities” are or can be made ‘accountable’.
#32…PBi..I agree “we need to try and draw out all the connections where we can.” what connections are there?
One of the connections is that millions of low paid workers experience the sickening laziness and cynical game playing of many other better paid workers and they feel that this is ‘taking the piss’.
Everyone… enjoys and relates too many forms of humour that can sometimes educate and elevate…. as well as make us understand ourselves better…. or at least feel better. Comedians like Mark Steel, Mark Thomas, Jeremy Hardy and others are an invaluable resource for the socialist movement. Michael Moore uses humour to tackle some very difficult issues…. Sache Baron Cohen is a genius and “gets away with murder”… but still usually ‘elevates’ and educates [that my view anyway]
But…. Low Paid workers alongside retired home counties colonels are fed up with the way ridiculously paid workers like Ross and Brand …. take the piss.
The far right politically want to deal with the economic crisis by an offensive against the working class and they will use all forms of moral panics to gain further advantage in the war of manouver.
Socialists also take and moral stand against filthy rich people ‘taking the piss’ and seek to show the way to a better more balanced, fairer society very RESPECT is the guiding thread.
Speak for yourself; some of us didn’t.
Oh, if only Rushdie’s mistake was to ring up the Ayatollah Khomeini and say he fucked his grand-daughter…
A school of artistic experimentation is invented, which is said to be the definition of freedom; but this “experimentation” has its limits, imperceptible until there is a clash, that is, until the real problems of individual alienation arise. Meaningless anguish or vulgar amusement thus become convenient safety valves for human anxiety. The idea of using art as a weapon of protest is combated.
Those who play by the rules of the game are showered with honors — such honors as a monkey might get for performing pirouettes. The condition is that one does not try to escape from the invisible cage.
New impulse for artistic experimentation
When the revolution took power there was an exodus of those who had been completely housebroken. The rest — whether they were revolutionaries or not — saw a new road. Artistic inquiry experienced a new impulse. The paths, however, had already been more or less laid out, and the escapist concept hid itself behind the word “freedom.” This attitude was often found even among the revolutionaries themselves, a reflection in their consciousness of bourgeois idealism.
Che “From Socialism and Man in CUBA”
Karl
Come over to the Respect conf. report thread
What is needed is the development of an ideological-cultural mechanism that permits both free inquiry and the uprooting of the weeds that multiply so easily in the fertilized soil of state subsidies.
As a personal opinion I think Ross and Brand’s joke was crass but it should not lead to disciplinary action. Perhaps a right of reply if the aggireved parties want it. Perhaps they should apologise. But all that’s been done.
There should be some kind of protection against personal abuse, sexism etc but this should be regulated by complaints and viewers but I’m against state censorship. We should in general be for the democratisation of the media, far more community involvement in TV etc and of course a cap to wages of BBC workers- perhaps £35000 a year but I suppose it should be decided by a democratic committeee of inquiry including viewers and trade unionists working in broadcasting.
Of course there are far greater issues but we should have sometihng to say about TV and culture in general- for letting a hundred thousand flowers bloom and public funding for community TV, for th breakup of the big media corporations for truly democratic media, against censorship is my opinion.
Who the hell is defending them? Who cares? Is the BBC Have your Say? Am I reading the Mail?
shouldnt we opposing all forms of bullying
if this happended at my work (they all work for the BBC)
as a union rep i would expect action to be taken on the grounds of bullying and dignity and respect
unless as union we dont think such issues are important after all
Certainly where I work such behaviour would result in instant dismissal, and I also don’t believe that the individual sacked would have a snowball’s chance in appealling against it.
This would normally be blocked by an editor or five, so the fact this has happened means there may be another agenda at work.
Certain people can magic up a controversy like this any time they want, as this sort of thing ends up on many a cutting room floor. I also wonder is any of the ten thousand who were shocked are similarly shocked with the incessant pushing of illegal wars by the BBC. Also for politicians to adopt the moral high ground on anything is extraordinary, given what they rubber stamp through parliament on a regular basis.
There was an interesting common thread in the hundreds of emails and dozens of calls that came in to Talksport (and to many MPs it seems) over this. Most people linked the pair’s boorish behaviour, the obscene salaries, the fact that the BBC is meant to be a public broadcaster and the new economic climate.
As for sackings – c’mon. Anyone who things that Ross or Brand losing their fabulous contracts is an issue of workers’ rights is beyond trade union cretinism.
Is this another example of PC gone mad?
What about Health and Safety regulations, where do they come into it?
Surely its OK to insult people these days.
It’s only the PC brigade who object to sexism and racism and stuff like that.
By the way, hasn’t the anti-PC champion Esther Rantzen made a pure midden of her face – she could get a job on ‘Doctor Who’ as a scary extra without needing to put on a mask or get any make-up put on.
I hope she doesn’t go out at Halloween. She’ll scare all the kids!
As Esther is anti-PC then she can’t complain about me insulting her, surely?
all the best SU!
ps
By the way, this is classic!
Scottish-style Philosophy Football in action -
MSP match abandoned after clash
BBC Scotland
29 Oct 2008
A football match between politicians and journalists was called off after tempers boiled over, it has emerged.
The match was stopped after 55 minutes following a number of contentious challenges between the MSPs and the sports journalists they were facing.
#35 – The Left’s greatest mistake of the 1990s was abandonning Salman Rushdie
Yeah, somehow I can’t help feeling there were a few howlers that merit the title “The Left’s Biggest Mistake” than abandoning Rushdie!
If, as a union rep, I were representing a colleague employed to present a radio program based on close to the nail comedy, often of a sexual nature, I would start to build a defence along the lines of an editorial stitch up. If you employ a guy who dessed up as Bin Laden on MTV on 12th September 2001 you’re not going to get another Wogan i’m afraid. Controversy is expected of Brand, and his excellent radio 2 show has brought a huge number of non- radio 2 listeners to the station. This was a pre recorded show and this section should have been edited out and Brand should have had a bollocking in private.
The poor old boy shouldn’t have had to put up with that, but this petty moralising plays into the hands of the right. Russel Brand is a complex and articulate guy who often expresses progresive arguments but is undoubtably guilty of sexism at times.
#44.. Bob thank god for a sensible contribution from a trade unionist!
So “some comments on a SUN thread” is now “The Left”? Come on.
I am somewhat worried that Andy wants these guys fired over their behavior, but needlessly declared his solidarity with HP when they tried to get someone fired and were threatened with a libel action. Maybe you would defend Ross and Brand if they were running a blog instead of a radio show?
Martin
Do you really think the possible termination of a contract paying £18 million over three years is a trade union issue?
#35 – The Left’s greatest mistake of the 1990s was abandonning Salman Rushdie
- It doesn’t really matter what the left’s biggest mistakes are because History is on our side and we’re going to win anyway.
Even Wall Street these days thinks communist economics, with its massive state intervention to prevent the free-market working properly, is a brilliant idea.
By the way,
there are only 3 n’s in abbandoning, not 4.
~51 …Martin… and another trade unionist! Also sensible… but Martin, to give you an example there are often cases of bullying and harrassment in workplaces and in frontline services with public interactions where the issues of rudeness, disrespect and downright intimidatory behaviour occur… Everyone knows it is a rampant feature of stressfull working conditions… I take your point that Brand and Ross are actually paid to be edgy and to some extend reduced the work caused stress and anxiety of their listener through humour…
But in General Unions are crap [in my experience] at dealing with issues like this. Would you agree or disagree?
The wider issue of demonising people in society and the sort of cynical tit for tat exchanges that pass for debate or humour in popular culutre are all poses to some extent by this ‘storm in a teacup’. The economic issues of ‘millionaires’ taking the piss and laughing all the way to the bank are also posed.
Moralising should not be the sole privaledge of the political right wing in society… is there a socialist ‘morality’…. what constraints on Artistic Freedom would a ‘socialist’ England place on celebrities and artists?
Kevin,
It depends upon whether Brand and Ross are members of a Trade Union or not. If so they have the right to be represented in any disciplinary action taken against them. I don’t want to see anyone losing their jobs, especially two broadcasters who I happen to find funny desipte some political differences. I agree that they shouldn’t be paid that sort of money but that is a separate argument.
Of course sexism should be challenged but the right wing media are having a field day over something that was stupid but not malicious. And Brown. Cameron and Galloway are oppotunists of the worst kind.
“Do you really think the possible termination of a contract paying £18 million over three years is a trade union issue?”
There shou;ld be a cap on the pay decided by a democratic committee but it is absurd for socialists to demand that they are sacked. If they were sacked it is not really a matter over which to mobilise trade unionists of course- there are plenty of workers’ struggles e.g. http://permanentrevolution.net/entry/2385
But socialists are against censorship. Of course there should be a right of reply and in my opinion it was certainly crass and in poor taste but it’s not at all in the same league as racist or sexist abuse as far as I can tell (from the rather coy BBC report it suggested that Ross said Brand had sexual relations, presumably the actual word used began with an f, with an actor’s granddaughter)- it’s poor taste but socialists are against censorship.
is there a socialist ‘morality’….
Yes- it’s being against a tiny elite screwing up the world, living on millions a year whilst over a billion don’t have access to clean water.
what constraints on Artistic Freedom would a ’socialist’ England place on celebrities and artists?
The same as a socialsit anywhere else- none or at least very few. Perhaps with consultation with trade unionists and the gneral working class public some kind of code against racist, homophobic abuse would be drawn up but it should be very lightweight. There would certainly be a right of reply and the democratic right
to not watch and as we would have much much more choice than in the monolithic capitalist systems where culture is served up to us rather than created by us it people would vote with their feet- or their clicks on a public service broadband TV of choice.
#45 “Certainly where I work such behaviour would result in instant dismissal, and I also don’t believe that the individual sacked would have a snowball’s chance in appealling against it.”
I didn’t realise you worked in comedy, Andy, but this would be far more serious- there may be I suppose a case for some kind of disciplinary right from th eoffended listener but we certainly shouldn’t advocate summary dismissals of ordinary workers- Brand and Ross are far from workers but it is strange that socialists say if a work mate of mine did a comedy sketch show like this s/he should be sacked!
No! We should be for the workers through the trade unions to have the right to hire and fire. Of course Ross should have his contract terminated but not for this but for refusing to work for a trade union rate of pay.
hi Jason… what you doing on bonfire night??
fancy some interesting action in parliament??
Check out who George is inviting to parliament that day!
http://www.respectrenewal.org/content/view/410/1/
It would be interesting what Emory Douglas the old Minister of Culture in the Black Panther Party would have to say about Ross and Brands behaviour!
http://www.respectrenewal.org/content/view/410/1/
When my old auntie (my grandma’s big sister) heard I was a socialist her comment was “it’s not socialism we need, it’s good manners and for everyone to care about themselves and other people”.
I don’t necessary agree with the first part but I do with the second. Brand and Ross took a joke too far and there are consequences, they did not do it in private but in public – not only are they offensive to the grandfather they left the message to but particularly the woman involved.
If Brand and Ross are in Equity I am sure there representatives will take it up – however given that the whole debacle happened in the public sphere it is difficult to afford them confidentiality they would normally afford.
I once as a shop steward had to take up a complaint that when an older woman admin worker was on annual leave another worker drew a colostomy bag on a picture of Cliff Richard in her office. The woman was very upset and offended – she was a lifelong fan of Cliff Richard. Of course amny of you will be giggle just now as was the young male worker who drew it, however I took the complaint seriously as she was crying at being humiliated at work. Under the council’s Fair Treatment Policy I dealt with it. The younger male worker meant it as a josh and was just pulling her leg – he bought her a new calender, some flowers and gave her a card with a teddy bear saying he was sorry, he was sorry because everyone in the office had told him “that wasn’t nice, you really upset Jeanie”. He was remorseful and totally contrite. On this occasion it was dealt with by me as the shop steward and management did not have to be involved.
Brand and Ross are show offs and the just showed off rather too much on Saturday and hopefully they will demonstrate remorse and contriteness that my fellow trade unionist showed when he was banged to rights over a joke that hurt someone.
I personally find Ross offensive by way of his implicit homophobia, the repeated sexualisation of ‘Three poofs and a piano’ being one example.
I know this will raise sniggers, but he was also intrusively offensive questioning Cliff Richard sometime ago, alluding to his sexuality, wanting to know when he ‘last got in the saddle’ etc.
Being “PC” [always used prejoratively] is central to a socialist outlook, in my opinion.
The political issue here is NOTHING to do with trade unionism.
It’s an attack on the BBC which was orchestrated by the Tories and the Daily Mail.
They see the BBC as a hotbed of anti-Toryism and anti-ruling class “disrespect”
They, like the Blairites, are quite capable of utilising the “Respect” agenda to their own advantage.
* Have “respect” for your elders
* Have “respect” for your betters
* Have “respect” for property…..
They chose it because defending a 78 year old makes good P.R. not because of the intrinsic awfulness of what was said.
Brown then jumped on the bandwagon, followed by Galloway.
This is very stupid because if the campaign succeeds, there will be furher attacks and the public media will become even more reactionary.
People on the ‘left’ who can’t see this are total fuckwits.
#63 prianikoff….please do not used words like “total fuckwits” directed at other comrades who express feelings and ideas on this site… it is not right to behave in this way.
You are right that other people can claim the “RESPECT AGENDA” as their own…. precisely as Blair did with the Anti Social Behaviour initiative called RESPECT…also I notice that when you Google RESPECT you get Tony Blair First and the Left Alternative Second….
Galloway doesn’t need to jump on bandwagons…. he usually leads on things and just says what he thinks from his experience…. I don’t always agree but he certainly makes me think.
Several trade unionists have contributed to this thread and have indicated that the feel that RESPECT is a trade union and workplace issue.
Once again out of RESPECT [in the fullest sense of the word] please stop swearing.
Andrew Sachs was just on the telly totally bemused by the whole situation saying he was perfectly happy with the apologies, wanted nobody sacked and thought it was ridiculous all the attention paid to it.
His granddaughter has released another video through The Sun saying she’s delighted that they’ve been suspended and justice has been done.
Brand has quit BBC Radio 2 because that was only a small part of his stuff.
My above predictions are coming true, I should write for Heat. Come to think of it, this site is a bit like Heat.
Brand has just made a sensible statement and announced his resignation from Radio 2 and apologised for forgeting that “at the core were the feelings of a beloved comic actor”… and “I take total responsibility”…..
This is the kind of accountability that repairs damage done and produces reconciliation and is educational to all….
In my sons school [he is 13] there has been a big craze amoungst the boys for saying to each other escalating jokes that start with the phrase “your moma is so fat … that….” Several fights have broken out and some kids put on behavioural contracts…. This sort of behaviour may seem trivial to some comrades but young people who learn that it is ok to be disrespectful and that it is ok to solve conflicts through violence will not actually make very good “socialists” in the future.
Creating an atmosphere of genuine RESPECT in our homes, schools, workplaces and in the Media is an issue that genuine socialists can lead on.
I do not think that anyone who disagrees with me is a total ‘idiot’ or a ‘fuckwit’ and despite the fact that my son’s mother is one of the “fatest” people I have ever seen I would never use this as a weapon against her even in a humourous fashion.
probably the Sparts will defend Ross & Brand … as they have done it before with Michael Jackson, Katrin Krabbe, NAMBLA or Nina Hartley
Mark
Be careful. I think prianikoff is right here.
The problem with Ross and Brand is that they are not even in the same league as Peter Cook and Chris Morris.
This ‘storm in a teacup’ will subside … but never let it be forgot that the reason, I imagine, that Andy posted another bloggers ‘DaveSpart’ comments on Brand and Ross, is that on other threads some comrades aggressively accused George Galloway of pandering to reactionary sentiments and medival attitudes for debating this issue on his Radio Show.
This blog is a bit like Heat magazine but the advantage of the tinternet is that you don’t have to go to London and you don’t have to buy it…
Socialists relating to everyday life and the 24hour media driven agenda’s are the only way we can hope to have an impact on the cultural life of the country.
If you do participate though please try to be respectful of others and if you slip up be accountable and apologise.
#68 paul v …. prianikoff does have a valid position but he would be better served by expressing it without abusive language….. there are people who I have spoken to including young black women who are interested in socialism…. who I made the mistake of suggesting they look at Socialist Unity…..
They have told me that “most of the people who write comments seem completely over the top….and I don’t understand”. They walk away without contributing…
#59 Perhaps a good meeting. If I happened to be anywhere near I might pop along (I won’t be sadly) but bonfire night, parliament.. some kind of association’s coming back to me… what was it now?
Mark, no. What puts people off is language they don’t understand.
“most of the people who write comments seem completely over the top….and I don’t understand”
Most of the people I have met who are involved in politics – not just far Left politics, but any sort of politics – are nutters.
Andy:
Do you want to cross post this piece from our site?
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/10/29/how-the-swp-caused-the-credit-crunch/
Luke #35: “We must defend all forms of satire, even if it does go “too far.”
What exactly were they satirising? Satire is about pricking pomposity, poking at power and afflicting the comfortable. Not sure that two hugely overpaid white males publicly humiliating an elderly actor and a young woman counts.
Mind you, as a mass diversion from the current crisis, this has been most effective.
Everything we broadcast is governed by two sets of rules: ‘compliance’ and the ‘trust agenda’. Whenever I’ve wanted to discuss the use of words commonly regarded as ‘obscene’ on my programme, it has had to be reviewed and is nearly always rejected because the prog goes out at 4.30 pm.
I have no problem with the use of such so-called words between consenting people. I have no problem with people using such words at legit targets. A.Sachs is clearly not a legit target. (I suggest use of such words (which I use all the time) at people who aren’t consenting to the conversation is aggressive.)
JR and RB were playing about in an arena where language is controlled and governed by these sets of rules and codes. I’m unsure as to why those who enforce the rules chose not to on this occasion. For me, the sole responsibility lies with them. It’s their arena. It’s only an illusion that the arena belongs to JR, RB or anyone else we watch or listen to.
Brand has just made a sensible statement and announced his resignation from Radio 2 and apologised for forgeting that “at the core were the feelings of a beloved comic actor”… and “I take total responsibility”…..
..which proves that Russell Brand is spineless.
Other people on his production team will lose their jobs, the Tories are after more blood and will go for a purge of the BBC.
Why is Sachs so “beloved”? All he ever did was play a dumb Spanish waiter who said “Que?” all the time and got slapped over the head. This would be roundly condemned if it was an Indian or Black character. He then made a cover of “Shut Up you Face” caricaturing an Italian. Shouldn’t the son of a German Jewish refugee have known better?
If his grandaughter wasn’t prepared to admit making love to Russell Brand, why did she do it 3 times? What exactly is she ashamed of?
Brand hasn’t said anything unpleasant about her, simply spoken the truth.
The self professed “Slut” however seems to be behaving like a vengeance demon, before her inevitable cash in with News of the World and Channel 4.
The sad thing is Brand has been isolated by lack of any meaningful challenge to this reactionary nonsense by any significant left journalist. So public broadcasting will, in future be more boring, blander and more Tory.
More Ian Hislop, less Paul Merton.
and worse yet to come….
Pathetic.
Only two people who actually listened to the show when it was broadcast complained about it. That says it all for me. It only turned into scandal after the media started hyping it.
We also now know that Andrew Sachs’s grand daughter, who is a self styled Satanic Slut, has been stirring it up to get revenge on her X, Brand.
Good publicity for Satanic Sluts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuEONuAF7e8
Yes, of course, it’s the woman’s fault.
Priapikoff #76 “If his grandaughter wasn’t prepared to admit making love to Russell Brand, why did she do it 3 times? What exactly is she ashamed of? … The self professed “Slut” however seems to be behaving like a vengeance demon, before her inevitable cash in with News of the World and Channel 4.
Ooh, angry much yourself, duckie.
Public versus private arenas?
Ed D #77: “We also now know that Andrew Sachs’s grand daughter, who is a self styled Satanic Slut, has been stirring it up to get revenge on her X, Brand.
Then Brand was an idiot for handing her the means.
Anyhow, back to this economic meltdown ….
In relation to TV getting ruder and cruder, C4 news just aired a report which included a clip from Galloway’s appearence on Big Brother where he pretended to be a cat, as an example of degrading and offensive material.
That’s a very good point. Galloway knowingly and willingly took part in one of the most exploitative and rude shows in the history of television, therefore he is in no position to lecture Russell Brand.
No Anna,
It’s not all about a diversion from the economic crisis (very crude analysis btw)
As I explained several times before this is a POLITICAL ATTACK on the public broadcasting service – the BBC, instigated by the Tories and amplified via the Daily Mail.
The incident concerned is no more odious than for example Jeremy Clarkson, turning towards a black member of the audience of “Top Gear” and saying where did you nick it when informed he owned a BMW.
Of course the Tories won’t go for Clarkson because he’s “one of there’s”
So no, it’s not the “woman’s fault” – there is no particular fault of either party, Brand or Sach’s granddaughter.
The Political point is the one I’ve made several times over all over.
BTW I object to you distorting a real family name to make one of your totally inaccurate and vicious little innuendoes.
As a descendant of Chinese Immigrants yourself, you really ought to know better Madame Muppet. Never, EVER do it again.
To reiterate the point I made last night on a different thread. I wouldn’t mind if Bland and Dross had made real insightful political principle commentary but nay…. Re Brand and Ross… the unfunny and undynamic duo…
There is something undoubtedly “the lad” about these two combined with schoolboy “humour” i.e. “hey, my mate has f&cked your granddaughter”… Oh how we laugh….not! Belly laugh? More like belly flop…
It also highlights the so called worth of their sterling and creative wit and vibe. And if their pay packet is connected to their brand (no pun intended) of comedy then I am in the wrong job.
I wouldn’t mind if they indulged in some parody, satire or half decent humour that had a meaning but they instead resorted into a schoolboy prank. The schoolboy japery of being rude and sweary on some bloke’s answer machine (Oooo…how rude are we? We said fuck….).
But you can imagine both of them squirming muttering “So-r-rry” while staring at their scuffed shoes.
They are juvenile sexists who think it is ever soooo hilarious to take the piss out of a woman in a demeaning manner.
The sexist puerile joke just aint funny. They really should grow up. And why is it “justified” to take the piss out of this woman. I don’t care what she has or hasn’t done that’s being used as a distraction when the real idiots of this piece is those two.
To reiterate what Madam Miaow says at #73 it is about two overblown unfunny wiseacres acting laddish, it isn’t poking fun at the powerful or making clever and humourous observations about the world.
It’s boring tired old sexist crap. And if some of you defensive leftie anonymous men out there wanna make tired old excuses for tired old sexism then it really reflects your own tired old views. It is utterly revealing.
Louise, somebody who is a vampire slut, or whatever they call themselves, isn’t in a good position to preach about sexism.
prianikoff makes a good point. The Tories media will whip up populist outrage when they are in power to further their plans to selloff the Beeb. They’ve already said that every radio station but Radio 4 will be sold off.
The good thing about the BBC is there is something for everybody. If you don’t like Ross and Brand, listen to something else. Demanding that the stuff you don’t like be cut will only lead to calls from other people to cut the stuff you do like.
A publicly funded system relies on tolerance. Lets show some.
Didn’t the SWP split with Respect over the small matter of Kylie’s knickers?
Personally I won’t rest content until Derek and Clive is broadcast on BBC 1 straight after the Queen’s Speech.
Brand is a very funny guy actually.
More interested in Spurs-Arsenal game at the moment, as the new Redknapp-managed team were one up at the Emirates until Silvestre equalised on 37 minutes.
What gets me over all this is how a Socialist website contains so few comments actually understanding the point here.
A political attack on the BBC by the Tories and Daily Mail.
Brand and Ross might be overpaid.
You might might not like them, but there’s far, far worse on the box.
Brand got it right when he pointed to the Mail’s record.
It’s a political attack on the BBC by the Tories and Daily Mail.
Needs to be taken up.
Back to the game now.
Eh? How come it’s the woman’s fault even if she is a “satanic slut” – imagine after a one night stand three years ago (or three shags or whatever it was)and a comedian on prime time radio with another comedian phones your granddad or grandma to tell them “I fucked your grand daughter/son!” I think you would have every right to go slightly and utterly mental! Brand maybe funny but he was out of order – he appears to understand this and has apologised and resigned.
Get a grip – no one on the left is being asked to do anything but honestly – it is not OK what Brand and Ross did in anyone’s book! It is nasty, gratuitous and sexist. No one is demanding anything be “cut” just a little decency and fecking decorum! It is never right to boast on live media leaving messages on someone’s phone that you “fucked their grand daughter”. Never right or funny!
Half time nearing, so just dropping this little snippet for y’all (from the Torygraph.)
“Replace Jonathan Ross’s show with Fawlty Towers, says Tory MP
An episode of Fawlty Towers should be shown tomorrow night instead of Jonathan Ross’s talk show, as a mark of respect for the actor Andrew Sachs, …”
Servile little Spanish waiters are fine, beloved even…
Yup, the ruling class gets it. That’s why they’re the ruling class.
Cat, it doesn’t make it “her fault”, but the fact that she is a public pornographer does add context to the story. Exactly how embarrassed can one be if you call yourself a slut? If she was, say, a law student quietly getting on with her life then it would put matters in a slightly different light. One doesn’t negate the other, but it does add context to the story.
Russell Brand’s full video statement…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7698417.stm
#85 – eh no! It does not matter who or what she is – you cannot phone her grandad to tell her you fucked his granddaughter. I don’t think it matters at all, her being a “slut” is her choice but I am sure three years ago when she consented to having sex that she did not consent to Brand being a dick about her on live radio and involve her grandad!!! “Slut” or no “slut”! Its about context. I have just used the work “fucked” and “slut” and I swear quite liberally however I can’t think of any circumstances of where I would ever say “fucked” or “slut” in front of my mother never mind my grandma or god forbid my grandad! It’s bad and rude behaviour! And I would be cross if anyone on this board told my mum I swore – thankfully my mum can’t use the internet.
Anyway Brand has apologised and it’ll be a nightmare for the BBC as he does have a £18 million contract!! which they probably would have to honour if they sacked him – the best scenario would be for Ross to apologise too.
As I said, it doesn’t cancel out the wrong, but it adds context to the story. If the public had this information I don’t think there would have been so many morons willing to jump on this bandwagon.
#89 Is that supposed to be some kind of rational argument Vic?
At least I gave a definition for the term you have chosen to re-use.
-so called socialists who uncritically join in baying mobs around issues selected by the ruling class. i.e. a good proportion of those contributing to this thread.
Notice that as soon as ex-Big Brother contestant and unashamed exploiter of the bourgeois media, G.G. came out behind Brown, who was behind Cameron, who was using the Daily Mail as his mouthpiece, the rest of the bloggistas around Respect stepped into line.
This is rank opportunism and it’s growing like the dank odour in a well used trainer. Even the rest of the BBC recognised that the baying mob, of whom,almost certainly 26,998 had never listened to the original programme, had begun a purge at the BBC. But it won’t stop over controversies like this one, whatever you think of Ross and Brand.
The ruling class will clamp down on their critics across the board and try to gain full spectrum dominance of the media to enforce their ideology. They have to because the practical results of it are so devastating and it’s obvious for all to see. They don’t even need to resort to censorship to do this either, because there are a thousand other ways for them to achieve it, including the manipulation of popular opinion.
Those who have focused on the trivial issues and ignored the politics are acting as the ideological shock troops of reaction, whether they like it or not.
Polly Hudson 30/10/2008 in The Mirror has it about right
(extract)
“… I’m not saying what Jonathan and Russell did was right, but the over-reaction to it has been absolutely ludicrous.
Let’s get a few things straight. First, no one has died. Secondly, IT WAS A JOKE. Yes, Jonathan and Russell did go too far, but they probably thought Andrew Sachs would have a sense of humour – you know, what with him being famous for starring in one of the most acclaimed comedies of all time. And a pretty un-PC one at that, with it’s main gags centred around Spanish people being thick and all Germans being Nazis…..
On the day it was broadcast, Russell’s show had only two complaints. Then it turned into Manuelgate, and more than 27,000 people registered their disgust. I wonder how many had actually heard what they were objecting to? And no, reading about it in the Daily Mail isn’t the same.
Manuelgate has divided the country, seemingly by age. Old fuddy-duddies think it’s all terrible and awful and an outrage.
Those of us still in control of our faculties think the show was funny, that Jon and Russ went too far but that it’s not the end of the world… ”
full article here:-
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/10/30/let-s-just-get-over-manuelgate-now-115875-20852692/
Meanwhile in the “Sun” this morning:-
“DISGRACED Russell Brand yelled “Qué?” as he romped with the granddaughter of Manuel actor Andrew Sachs, it was revealed yesterday.”
Now who could possibly have told them that?
In support of the argument that the Tories and Mail chose the issue to target the BBC, it transpires that Russel Brand said the same thing about Andrew Sachs grand-daughter on the Paul O’Grady show and this has not been mentioned, despite the fact that it was also a pre-recorded show.
Stop the Tory/Mail assault on the BBC.
Defend the jobs of all journalists and technicians on salaries negotiated by the media unions.
No privatisation at the BBC.
OFTEL should be investigating the pricing policy and content of Satellite and Cable providers.
#25 “Galloway of all the ‘celebrities’ knows what it is like to be subject to a variety of moral panics and becoming a minor folk devil.”
If that were true, he shouldn’t feed them. His stated position on his radio show last night is that there is too much of this sort of thing on the BBC and he has lined up completely with the Mail and Mediawatch.
#43 “Anyone who things that Ross or Brand losing their fabulous contracts is an issue of workers’ rights is beyond trade union cretinism.”
Can we get a list of the workers with salaries too high for you to consider their jobs worth defending?
#91 skidmarx… out of interest, why do listen to Talk Sport Radio so much?
hey comrades dont bother posting here, the Ross and Brand controversy is so old hat, you should join the new and way more serious discussion on the post on brand and ross controversy just posted. Apparently the moral panic over the issue is a sign that people are pissed off with capitalism, now that is a serious post!!!! Anyway i say more posts on this topic down with serious politics!!! its how we connect wit da workin class innit.
#92 I started off when they had some decent football pundits… the time segued into Galloway’s show before I’d realised he was splitting Respect…I found it really difficult to listen to when people would ring up and say “George, you’re the most incredible defender of working people the world has ever seen. Can I agree with your latest point in a cringe-inducing error-strewn manner”… at least that isn’t so bad any more…
I went to a SWSS meeting in Oxford once where a newly joined comrade suggested to Rob Hoveman that the SWSS group should launch a campaign against pornography… he said that isn’t really what the SWP believes in censoring…I wonder if he still thinks the same, or joins Kevin in his boss’ campaign against Filth… maybe their next target should be Premiership footballers who are seen to swear on TV… their wages are so obscene that no right minded person would be such a cretin as to defend them… I understand you got a big cheer from the Respect conference for being a second rate Keith Flett impersonator, with overtones of Alan Partridge… if you’ve been on the end of harassing phonecalls perhaps you can see how it trivializes the damage those do to put Brand and Ross’ actions in the same category.
#94 skidmarx… forgive my ignorance but I don’t know who keith flet is but I do like Alan Partridge…. I didn’t get a ‘cheer’ at the Respect conference but it did cheer me up…[I am a bit more like Kevin Turvey [Rik Mayles 80's character ... an investigate reporter from Redditch] rather than Alan Partridge.
Skiddie… mate I don’t listen to GG very often and I understand not everyone likes his style.. Where I do agree with GG is that popular culture has become decandent and I do feel that if we aspire to leading the nation away from the abyss and towards socialism we have to address all sorts of cultural issues…
It was not just harrassing phones calls that i suffered from… I have been held hostage, sexually humiliated, suffered broken face bones and black eyes on many occassions and be ripped off financially and had my children observe this constant humiliation with consequent negative impacts on their psychological development.
In all of this as a male …. no one wanted to know or believe me when I sought help … I was rejected…and ignored … or even blamed for provoking the attacks… The people who blamed me included ‘socialists’… To escape I had to move with my own resources 130 miles away…severing ties with important people in my life…. In escaping I was helped by people who aren’t socialists [yet] just decent ordinary working class types …. with compassion who have been ‘through the mill’ themselves.
I am glad to have escaped with my life with my sanity intact.
I am angry that there is no provision to support male victims of Domestic Violence
I am angry at a culture that tolerants such shit and poverty in the world
I am channeling the psychic energy of the anger into activity as a member of RESPECT….
We shouldn’t be in favour of ‘Censorship’ but we should be in favour of the promotion of values that promote a higher cultural level, values that won’t tolerate exploitative, and oppressive behaviour. Building a culture that aims to protect the vulnerable whether they are young old male female black white christian muslim migrant or native gay or straight.
We are not in favour of Censorship but TRUTH and decency and democractic debate… this is not a reactionary agenda but the way forward to a better society and RESPECT is leading the way on the Left about how get there.
It’s a storm whipped up by Daily Mail, etc., scum. Kowtowing to it is spineless. Using the fact that Ross is a massively overpaid bore adds the obligatory pinch of populist snuff so common hereabouts. The moral outrage that has been whipped up around the issue is reactionary guff and stinks appropriately. I wouldn’t bother going out of my way to defend Brand, but lining up with what is patently a bit of good old fashioned moral hysteria is monumentally dumb. Kevin is right that it is not at all a matter of worker’s rights, but that doesn’t excuse lining up with petit-bourgeois bigots. Whatever next – campaigning to shut down strip clubs? Moaning about ‘raunch culture’? Oh, hang on…. there’s a pattern forming in my mind.
“Can we get a list of the workers with salaries too high for you to consider their jobs worth defending?”
This really is stupid. Are you saying that socialists should defend someone’s job regardless of what they have done? Since when has making vulgar and offensive phone calls been part of job description – regardless of the hourly rate?
#96..Karen Elliot… don’t be getting any ideas now!
Maybe it’s because I live in ‘cultural desert’ but the picture is not so straightforward as you portray it… I spoken to a few people this afternoon and the general feeling is ‘yes its the usual media hype… but the way Ross and Brand behaved was unacceptable and people need to show more respect’
Some of the 14/15 year olds I met who go to a high school where i used to work as a behavioural support worker…. also thought that Ross and Brand went too far… one of the girls [who buy the way wants to go on big brother and become a celebrity herself as a 'career' choice] said ‘I wouldn’t like it if one of my fella’s rang up my grandad… I say sack em’
The young blokie bloke who works at the printer where I went to get my Respect leaflet printed also said… ‘you know me mark …. I’m no prude..[nudge, nudge wink wink] but things have go too far for too long… something needs to change”
The only person though who said ‘Sack them’ was a 15 year old girl well on her way to becoming a ‘Satanic Slut’ herself…. None of the 11 people I spoke with is a Daily Mail reader and only one Listens to George Galloway their age ranged from 14.. to 83.
My survey contradicts your arguement that this is a reactionary storm whipped up by the Daily Mail…. I broadely agree with the sentiments expressed in my little survey and do not think this agreement constitutes Kowtowing. I am not spineless [in fact because of my regular Tai Chi mine spine is quite solid and straight]
What was the pattern that is forming Karen…. spit it out
In any real sense of the word ‘fault’, what happened isn’t actually Ross and Brand’s fault. The material object (the programme) was created and controlled by others. Ask yourself, who had the power here? Ross and Brand? No, they were hirelings. The price of their hiring obscures the power structure. Those who hired them also control what we say, how we say it. It was the hirers who not only made it possible for the programme to be made but also ran it past the procedures the BBC invented post Gilligan and post Queenie and post the various phone-in scams. For those of us who are subjected to daily minutiae-examination over at Radios 4 and 3, we can’t figure out how come this supposedly tough editorial process didn’t simply excise this the Brand-Ross episode. Suspending Ross is clearly scapegoating. it wasn’t his fault. The boss of R2 resigning is absurd. She probably had no idea that this went out or indeed probably didn’t even hear it. There’s a middle management group who come up with all these cap-doffing procedures – supposedly to keep the licence fee coming (ie appeasing the Daily Mail) – whilst being completely incompetent on the occasions when someone really does say or do something either a bit obnoxious and/or fraudulent. In the meantime, there is a general political and cultural freeze on everyone working in Radios 4 and 3. Every single time we want to, say, use a clip of a politician or a member of Buck House speaking on Word of Mouth, we have to check several times over that it’s OK and we’re not doing anything ‘biased’ or ‘gratuitous’ etc in our linguistic analysis. And the same level of management thought it was OK for Brand and Ross to ring Sachs?
#100… Michael Rosen… Good to see you posting here and I totally agree with your analysis of how poor the management are handling this issue…. but perhaps out of this saga something better will come…especially if you and people like you in the media start acting like militant trade unionist and put forward a new vision for public broadcasting that applies the same principles universally and is genuinely inculsive.
Ken Loach and the Glasgow Media Group people have been saying for years, and years and years that the culture of de facto ‘censorship’ of any political views exsists yet a dumbing down that has negative consequences for culture in the country is allowed to proceed with no effective control.
We are living through interesting times Michael and maybe voices that have been silenced for so long will get an airing?
Given the exorbitant over-payment of Ross (the most untalented “performer” on telly) and Brand (never seen any of his stuff, so can’t comment), perhaps they let the broadcast out so as to renegotiate their inflated contracts? Or is the BBC not that Machiavellian? Anyway, £18 million for Ross is somewhat over the top, given that he is simply recycling Letterman gags, a routine that doesn’t work because Ross doesn’t have the riff or persona of a Letterman. Jesus – £18 million quid a year! – that’s almost Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David money we’re talking, who at least are genuinely brilliant individuals. With Ross not on telly for the next 12 weeks, I just might tune in.
You prat.
#102 ..Politics…. don’t be rude please.
Well it’s not like I said I’d f****d his grandaughter is it?
#104… granted… but it is still a unecessarily rude form of address.
In what sense?
Respect now the National Viewers’ and Listeners’ Association.
“When England was a kingdom, we had a king. When we were an empire, we had an emperor. Now we’re a country … and we have Margaret Thatcher”.
I suppose some of you will say this is a rude joke made by Kenny Everett in 1981 on BBC Radio 2 which led to the non-renewal of his contract.
I dont think any trade unionists were saying that they should be sacked….just that action should be taken to ensure dignity and respect at work (The BBC)
“My survey contradicts your argument that this is a reactionary storm whipped up by the Daily Mail…”
Mark – no it doesn’t. Your ‘survey’ (aka ‘let’s see how well ideology is working’) only goes to show that the campaign is remarkably effective: all the more reason to oppose it.
“dignity and respect at work”
yes, that’s it… let’s make sure that work under capitalism is respectful and dignified. It’s a transitional demand. We should organise a big demo and carry placards. I can see them now: “Sorry for Interrupting”, “Do you mind if I smoke?”, “Bless You, Father”, “Pardon Me”, “Your Granddaughter’s Lovely, Sir” and “Who Farted?”
Alternatively, you could rename your party from ‘Respect’ to ‘Revenge’ – a more appropriate sentiment for these times, perhaps?
#99 “I heard a presenter on Absolute Radio last night say that he was afraid to say the last word of a book called “Do Bats Have …” because he was afraid of the climate of fear the Ross/Brand sackings have engendered.
#95 Keith Flett is a seial letter writer and member of the SWP… I was thinking of Alan Parteidge in his time on Radio Norwich… Galloway frequently attacks the spelling of those who have left messages on his show he disagrees with, wouldn’t it be equally amusing if I were to do that to you… you and your friend agree with the Daily Mail that the major problem raised here is the lack of Decency in society… there is already a group of people who are called the Decents, they are ex-left and pro-American imperialism.
#97 This really is stupid: “Are you saying that socialists should defend someone’s job regardless of what they have done? Since when has making vulgar and offensive phone calls been part of job description – regardless of the hourly rate?”
No I am not saying that socialists should defend someone’s job regardless of what they have done. And it is Kevin and his boss who made Ross’ hourly rate (Brand as it turns out was on a much harder to attack £200K pa) an excuse to have a go at them. Since when has making vulgar and offensive phone calls been enough excuse for people who used to pretend to be left-wing to launch a witch-hunt?
I think this comment from Joe from the Cedar Lounge thread with Russell Brand resigning with a picture of Stalin in the background is worth reproducing:
“Yes I ‘ave been a very naughty boy and I am very sorry for upsettin’ so many old people. But you ‘ave to wonder. Where was all them 27000 old fogeys who complained to the BBC about wot I said, when that geezer in the picture behind me was up to ‘is tricks, eh? ‘Alf of ‘em was in the bleedin’ Communist Party, wasn’t they? I’m just sayin’ that there ‘ave been worse people in this world than me, that’s all.”
#111 Not meaning to post anonymously.
“I totally agree with your analysis of how poor the management are handling this issue…”
Precisely. We need better management – the current lot are simply not up to the job. As a matter of priority, George Galloway should nominate two or three people who can be trusted to uphold suitable standards. Come the socialist revolution the incompetent dolts at the BBC will at last be replaced by right-thinking folk. Then there’ll be no more moaning in the playground about declining standards. This would never be allowed to happen in Cuba.
The BBC has lost its balls post Greg Dyke and is running scared of the fascists at the Hate Mail. Not condoning what happened, but with the war in Congo, the economic crisis, the US election etc, I’m sick of this ongoing circus on the BBC news. Glad I have Al Jazeera on satelite .
This is possibly the biggest over-reaction and non-story ever. The left gets accused of ‘political correctness’ – but this is right-wing political correctness gone mad.
Remember when Galloway was being witch-hunted by the right wing press? Many who did not support him both personally & politically, stood with him and called it for what it was.
Shame on you, Mr Galloway, for jumping on this bandwagon.
we’ve all lost the thread here…. the starting point of the discussion was Andy Newman guoting Dave on his blog saying among other things:
“Again, as a union rep, I once defended a workmate who described his line manager in terms that rhyme with the name of Tory media spokesman Jeremy Hunt, albeit in the pub after work. In those circumstances, I successfully argued, what was said was none of the company’s business.
But if me or any of my colleagues were repeatedly to leave outbursts of sexually explicit braggadocio pertaining to family members on a colleague’s voicemail, and did so in work time and on work premises, we would instantly be out the door for gross misconduct. I can see no reason why double standards should apply.”
Now we have some people denouncing George Galloway and RESPECT for in general agree this this assessment…and claiming that RESPECT should be renamed REVENGE.. and that it has jumped onto a moralistic bandwagon with a reactionary agenda.
This discussion could have tackled some important issues but didn’t… instead some people choose to concentrate their fire on socialists….
By the way Respect National Office just had Alan Partridge on the phone from Norwich… he is setting up a branch!
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