Manus Island violence: shocking but not surprising

Updated February 21, 2014 15:17:15

Photo: The human rights violations we documented were pushing asylum seekers to breaking point. (AAP: Eoin Blackwell)

Australia's detention facility on Manus Island is riddled with problems and it's hard not to feel that the recent violence there was inevitable, writes Graeme McGregor.

The built-in problems at Australia's Manus Island detention centre came to a violent climax this week with the killing of an innocent man, a 23-year-old Faili Kurd from Iran.

In response to Iranian government outrage at the death, some, including Opposition foreign affairs spokeswoman Tanya Plibersek, have been quick to point out the Iranian regime's known human rights abuses, including the persecution of minority groups, imprisonment of political dissidents and journalists, and one of the world's highest death penalty rates.

What these people seem to be missing is the irony in their protest. Both sides of politics have previously claimed that asylum seekers coming from Iran do so on economic grounds.

Further, Australia's otherwise strong stance on human rights is muddied when our asylum seeker policies, which include indefinite detention and offshore processing, have been universally condemned by the Australian Human Rights Commission, global human rights organisations and the UN as being in breach of refugee rights.

An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven. Instead, he was killed under the Australian Government's watch.

Conflicting reports have emerged about what sparked the violence and who was responsible for the injuries inflicted on 77 asylum seekers.

The Government first claimed that the injuries, including a shotgun wound, were inflicted on men who had fled the detention centre. Asylum seekers and anonymous sources inside the detention centre claim that PNG police and locals stormed the facility and attacked the men inside.

The tragic death, the dozens of injuries sustained and these conflicting accounts make the need for an urgent, independent inquiry into the events imperative.

But what the Australian and PNG governments have proposed is the opposite of independent.

The PNG police will carry out an investigation into the events, including the violence that may have been carried out by their own police officers. Meanwhile, Australian Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has given Martin Bowles, secretary of the Department of Immigration and Border Protection - and the man responsible for overseeing Australia's offshore detention centres - the task of investigating what happened.

Gillian Triggs, the Australian Human Rights Commissioner, is right to say that "enquiries by the very parties that are being challenged... is always less than optimal".

When we entered Australia's detention centre on Manus Island in November, we discovered that asylum seekers were being held in extremely unsanitary, over-crowded dormitories. The health professionals at the detention centre were under-resourced, telling us that they were unable to properly treat serious illnesses, such as diabetes and epilepsy.

The human rights violations we documented at the Australian-run facility were pushing asylum seekers to breaking point. Asylum seekers were forced to endure a daily regime of cruel and humiliating treatment, including poor hygiene conditions, insufficient supply of soap, withholding of drinking water and hours of queuing for meals in the tropical sun and rain. One dormitory, P Dorm, was so overcrowded and poorly ventilated that it violated the Convention Against Torture.

The asylum seekers, who had travelled from countries such as Burma, Syria, Somalia, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, received almost no information about when their asylum claims would be heard or when, if found to be refugees they could begin their new lives in PNG. As of this week, seven months since the facility was opened, not a single detainee has been processed. The men are allowed no interaction with the local people on Manus. These conditions are a deliberate attempt to break these men and pressure them to return to their country origin. For many, this means returning them to their persecutors.

Some of these men have now endured seven months of this treatment, with no idea of when their ordeal will come to an end. The PNG government is yet to commit to taking any practical steps to resettling recognised refugees, so these men could remain in detention for years while they try to organise their own resettlement elsewhere, with no assistance from Australia or PNG.

We also discovered that in the event of a fire or a security incident, such as the fight between PNG police and military that took place outside the facility on October 18, 2013, staff would be evacuated to a boat waiting offshore. There were, however, no evacuation procedures in place for the asylum seekers.

In light of our findings, the chaos and violence at the Manus Island detention centre was shocking, but not surprising. Australia's facility on Manus Island is riddled with problems and it's hard not to feel this was the inevitable outcome of this absurd policy.

In response to our report, Scott Morrison, Minister for Immigration and Border Protection, stated publicly: "Where things are presented that can improve, then of course, we will do that."

That was more than two months ago, and the government is yet to respond to our questions about what improvements have been made.

This week's violence has escalated the need for transparency and a truly independent investigation. That's why we're asking Australians to sign our new Action, calling on Minister Morrison to respond in full to our report and tell the public what is happening on Manus Island. Australians, and people around the world, have a right to know.

Editor's note: This article originally referred to the Iranian asylum seeker who was killed as being 24 years old. This has been amended in line with a statement from Immigration Minister Scott Morrison.

Graeme McGregor is refugee campaign coordinator for Amnesty International Australia. View his full profile here.

Topics: refugees, government-and-politics

First posted February 21, 2014 13:46:54

Comments (358)

Comments for this story are closed, but you can still have your say.

Charles:

21 Feb 2014 2:10:02pm

In relation to the comment regarding the death of an Iranian citizen and the subsequent outrage by the Iranian government, all this does is confirm that Iranians are coming here for reasons other than seeking asylum.

I can't be sure what Tanya Plibersek said in regards to this, but I am fairly sure that the government would have been quick to draw attention to the fact that this person was in Manus not because his government or the authorities were persecuting him, but actually were protecting him.

I am not sure Mr McGregor has totally got his head around this point, because if he was pointing out that it was bad that he was killed because he was in detention, then one has to wonder why he was even there since it was obvious he was not really seeking safety, but rather economic advantage.

Furthermore, since it has been quite clear by both sides of politics that economic migrants are not welcome, there are no guarantees you will be treated the way you want when it is obvious you are here for all the wrong reasons and none of the right.

It was simply a case of the cat being belled, and that the unfortunate who died should have taken more personal responsibility for his actions, rather than force the Australian government and people become responsible for his personal safety no matter what irresponsible or reckless decisions he took for himself which put him in that danger.

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- Daveb:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:49:49pm
  
  It is always best to blame the victim Charles.
  
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  - Trev:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:20:31pm
    
    No, Daveb, what he was doing was blaming the instigator. Seems fair to me.
    
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:51:56pm
    
    I blame the person Daveb who took the decision to put themselves in that spot. It wasn't the Australian people or government.
    
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- carbon-based lifeform:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:51:09pm
  
  Typical of your right-wing views, Charles.
  You obviously didn't read the article about the Iranian who was killed.
  Faili Kurds have been tortured and killed by both Iran and Iraq in the past.
  If you think that they're economic refugees, I really feel sorry for you.
  
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  - dmans5:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:26:23pm
    
    Even if they are genuine refugees they should not come by leaky boat , could be called tough love , also helps us to help more refugees as we get more bang for buck if they come through UNHCR .
    
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    - PP:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:13:14pm
      
      Why exactly shouldn't they come by boat?
      
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    - worriedcitizen:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:22:21pm
      
      asylum seekers can seek asylum by any way possible. If they find a way to come by leaky boat or floaties or with fake documents via airport ( because it is likely they are not able to safely aquire legal documents because they fear for their lives in their country). It is not tough love it is cruelty .
      
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    - John:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:59:14pm
      
      That is just rubbish.
      
      Nobody gets to Indonesia via half-a-dozen other countries without every kind of documentation.
      
      And we are now seeing the true situation - instead of destroying their passports and identity documents when they get on a people smuggler's boat they are now using them to travel back via Malaysia.
      
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:27:03pm
    
    Well here is a little hint cbl, if a government (Iranian) is concerned about the death of one of its citizens at Manus, then it is counter-intuitive to think they are at the same time persecuting them. What it means is that the unfortunate who died was not fleeing his countrymen given their concern for him, but was here as an economic migrant like most rational people suspect.
    
    I know logic is not something that gets much a of a run in Leftish circles, but it seems this rather obvious point is way past your pay grade.
    
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- Tom1:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:09:24pm
  
  Charles: Where do you get all of your information from? All of the circumstances you are so positive about.
  
  Your claim that the Australian government was actually protecting the deceased is somewhat disturbing, as the end result left something to be desired.
  
  I would hesitate to blame the government for the unfortunate death, but it is, in the end, the result of people trying to come to Australia for whatever reason, and our policy of dealing with the situation.
  
  You rush to print to defend the party you vote for, and no doubt will continue to do so, no matter if events get worse. You will still try to lay the blame at Labor's feet, as Morrison does in every second breath.
  
  The reality is that it is not easy, never was and never will be. The fact that Howard at a certain time in history enjoyed a spate where boats did not arrive is irrelevant, that was then, now is not.
  
  The Liberal party was not ready for government, and we are finding out the reasons why.
  
  And their policy is? Any policy, just one perhaps.
  
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:30:43pm
    
    Actually the true crime lies with those who give these illegal migrants the expectation they will get a free pass into Australia. All I am doing is pointing out the fact that the person who died made a decision to come here against the desire of the Australian government and people.
    
    It is also not about the government I vote for, this person arrived and was sent to Manus on the ALP's watch, and I would never vote for them in a million years
    
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  - Waterloo Sunset:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:31:32pm
    
    You failed to dress the question. What was he doing here?
    
    There are many countries close to Iran and in fact being a Kurd he could just walk across the poppy fields, into another Kurd community.
    
    He could also pop into Azerbaijan, or Pakistan.
    
    Why did he leave his family, who now want him back - and come here pretending to be an asylum seeker?
    
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  - RayS:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:41:02pm
    
    It should be obvious where Charles pulled all his information out of.
    
    Regrettably, there is no honour in rampant opinion.
    
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  - Kevin Freer:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:43:55pm
    
    Tom , you poor delude chap, Mate ask your self whom created the problem by removing a border control policy that worked, then reframe your article perhaps?
    
    No I just read further into your article and it is too late to call on you to apply logic, truth or rational though to a situation your certainly beyond that. Your future obviously lies in parroting the party line.
    
    I wish you well into the future.
    
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- taxedorff:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:10:13pm
  
  not quite sure I follow the line that the people undertaking the sea voyage should take responsibility for their actions but then the abbott govt say they are concerned for peoples lives and the previous labor govt were responsible for the deaths. until the refuges land in aust or are taken into Australian custody then no govts are responsible for any deaths. the whole drama has been a poltical advantage to outscore the previous govt. once the refugees are under our custody we have the responsibility to ensure they are looked after correctly. a refugee isn't always poor or one who hasn't got an education. all migration to aust is economic and in effect it provides economic refuge to the person. even tony abbott was an economic refugee as he parent sought economic refuge in aust as did countless other thousands in the late 50's early 60s.
  
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  - reaver:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:36:05pm
    
    There's no such things as an economic refugee, taxedorff. You can play all the word games you like, but it won't change the definition of legal terms like "refugee". The definition of "refugee" is provided by Article 1(2) of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. A refugee is someone who is outside of their country of nationality because of a real risk of persecution due to the their race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a social group. If you don't meet that definition then you're not a refugee.
    
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:35:11pm
    
    Taxedorf, there is a huge distinction between being invited here as a prospective migrant and being issued with all the relevant papers to do so. The others we are talking about here today came here unasked and without any documents so that it is hard for anyone to identify who they are and also to send them back.
    
    If you can't see the difference between the two groups then it is obvious you are just spruiking your ideology.
    
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  - Kevin Freer:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:48:42pm
    
    "not quite sure I follow the line that the people undertaking the sea voyage should take responsibility for their actions"
    
    Well that does it for me!
    
    By your definition people should no longer be responsible for their own actions?
    
    I suppose; if I guess correctly you would be more comfortable if a government were to be totally responsible for the action of all, all the time.
    
    Now where have I heard that philosophy before?
    
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- aGuy:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:15:28pm
  
  It does seem to cast doubt on many claims if the Iranian government is willing to permit a funeral from someone who was seeking asylum.
  
  In the mean time the people on Manus island get social/sporting facilities, free food, phone access at all times, computer access and more.
  
  I pity those in UN refugee camps. If the Australian facilities where in those conditions, I wonder how many would leave tomorrow.
  
  Plus I cant help but see the irony. Rioting...
  They claim they are escaping violence when rioting is a form of violence.
  
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  - Facepalm:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:00:08pm
    
    Seriously? You can't see any incentive for Iran to be promoting a more conciliatory stance at this moment?
    
    You can't connect their announcements with the fresh round of nuclear talks??..... Really??
    
    Main trouble with these forums is that the vast majority of people commenting in them are self-appointed armchair experts, with no greater understanding of International Relations or asylum seeker issues than the surface-level drivel spoon fed to them by commercial mass media. Doubt many of them could honestly explain the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee without having to Google it first.
    
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  - OhMy:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:15:05pm
    
    How is it that ONLY detainees were injured? Did they attack themselves? Were they "rioting" against each other? Are they given machetes and guns? I think you've might have been reading some very biased media stories.
    
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- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:28:47pm
  
  Not seeing anything in your argument which warrants indefinite detention. We don't even do that to pedophiles.
  
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  - John:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:00:07pm
    
    Perhaps not, Benny, but neither do we open the prison door to a convicted paedophile and say "You can go home at any time you wish. Just ask, and we will send you home in safety and comfort".
    
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  - Waterloo Sunset:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:33:40pm
    
    Well, he wasn't needing asylum, that's clear from his family's response.
    
    So, what was he doing?
    
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:50:24pm
    
    As I understand it Benny, as they don't provide documents which can identify them, then it is their own decision to remain in detention.
    
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  - Kevin Freer:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:53:18pm
    
    Benny Mate,
    These people endeavoured to breach our borders illegally. That is a crime.
    
    What would you do smack their bottoms and give them an Australian passport and open the gates for all their relatives, friends and acquaintances?
    
    Please I really would like to know your alternative method of handling this Labor created problem.
    
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- the yank:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:36:58pm
  
  Charles the outrage by Iran proves nothing other then they wanted to make political mileage out of this incident.
  
  Second the government did a crap job of protecting the man, he is now dead under our watch.
  
  Your third comment is nonsense. The man was there because this government put him there.
  
  You are pulling this economic migrant thing from the air. Until the person's case is heard neither you nor I know. Now because of the mishandling of this man's incarnation we will never know.
  
  So If you or anyone was picked up and put in jail and are then killed it would be their fault?
  
  There is an important point that seems to totally escape you and that is duty of care. As soon as the government locked this person or indeed any person it is the government's responsibility to ensure his safety, no if's and's or but's.
  
  Do you realise that even China, along with all the other organisations mentioned, are having a go at Australia for their total failure in the area of human rights and they are 100% correct.
  
  We now have a bunch of children posing as adults acting like thugs and those that voted for them and continue to make excuses for them are responsible.
  
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:49:22pm
    
    Yank, wondering why a government (Iranian) could get any political mileage out of pretending to be concerned about the fate of someone they were supposedly persecuting. Here was I thinking that sort of asinine logic was restricted to those of the Left.
    
    In addition you do not know whether he participated in the riot, was outside the detention facility and what if any aggressive actions he might have taken against the detention staff, the locals or even the riot squad who were trying to control them. If it transpires he did any of those things then I would judge him responsible for his own fate.
    
    I know this is a difficult concept for you to understand but if you make a number of decisions that are contra to the wishes of those whose care you are in, then you cannot guarantee that they will always be able to prevent you falling into harm.
    
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  - Brownus Average:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:51:52pm
    
    Yank,
    
    Target Australia becoming elusive has caused much aggression.
    
    The violent behaviour initiated by the illegal arrivals, that have departed from exploitative situations, within distant sphere's, at clear significant financial cost's, is clearly disturbing.
    
    Now seperated from the theoretical dangers by great distance and many nations in between, suggests considerations such as they may
    Concord, Much less now, to justify small claims of urgent attendance.
    
    They the arrivals understand, the financial investment of this illegal venture will not now yield the pinnacle end of profit.
    
    Collateral damage from this recent incident can only be claimed in one direction and very clearly not by the detainees.
    
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- Terry2:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:57:28pm
  
  You're only part right. When this unfortunate man was taken into Australian custody, we assumed a duty to care for him as for all other detainees on Manus and Nauru until such time as there claims for asylum could be processed and they had been resettled or returned to their country of origin.
  
  We have failed in our duty of care and an independent enquiry is essential and the Minister responsible needs to stand aside in the meantime.
  
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:40:40pm
    
    I disagree Terry2, unless he came here with documentation identifying him genuinely as to who he was, then it is his problem that he is in detention as he couldn't be positively identified. If it is the case that he came with no identification (which is usual) then it was his decision and he was responsible for his own predicament.
    
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- BJ:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:22:26pm
  
  Charles,
  
  From an economic point of view - maximising my own good - being alive rather than dead wins hands down.
  
  I don't think 'economic refugee' was meant to cover fleeing the risk of death or being killed in a (supposedly safe) refugee camp run by a signatory of the refugee convention.
  
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  - Charles:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:37:14pm
    
    He was not an economic refugee BJ that term is a logical fallacy, he was an economic migrant.
    
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Wining Pom:

21 Feb 2014 2:14:34pm

It is shameful and the people who voted for 'stop the boats' should be ashamed of their selfishness and lack of compassion.

What a nation of whingers we are. An extremely comfortable lifestyle and we whinge about refugees who are running for their lives.

And our politicians who will do this to people so they can have power. And their perks.

I am ashamed.

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- Zing:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:50:34pm
  
  If we open the borders to everyone who wants a better life, our comfortable lifestyle wouldn't last long.
  
  Besides. You'll find the left-wing are doing the majority of whinging on this issue. If they sat down and let the government enforce the borders, this whole debate would be a lot quieter.
  
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- Johhny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:56:52pm
  
  Can you please man up and take responsibility for the 1000 deaths at sea be ashamed please. thank you
  
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  - I think I think:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:37:29pm
    
    1000 deaths? Evidence please.
    
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    - John:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:01:12pm
      
      Chris Bowen put the figure at 1200.
      
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- Bean Counter:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:59:01pm
  
  The coward acts as follows....
  
  Criminals rampage and cause damage and injuries. The cops stop the criminals....
  
  The coward condemns the cops because A) The coward knows the cops will not harm the coward, and B) If the coward blamed the criminals maybe THEY would harm the coward. Always the same with the laughable left and their gutlessness at all times.
  
  99.99% of people are contemptuous of lefty cowards like you, for this reason Whiner.
  
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  - Closet Romantic:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:01:46pm
    
    Hi bean counter
    
    These are strong words from you, are you ok?
    
    Usually I love your pithy posts but this seems angry rather than your usual logic
    
    We all know the facts these people are people in search of a better life whatever their reasons but when you flee a country you give up certain advantages and get no sure safe haven just like the words used to describe the asylum seekers detention is a funny word they are free to leave, just not enter Australia. In the meantime they are fed housed and watered and protected, they riot because they are not getting what they want.
    
    Your right they are playing games like a kid playing up for a parent because they assume that they won't get seriously hurt.
    
    But this still is a tragedy because it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye or in this case a life
    
    Riots are a funny thing doing it like seeking asylum is a risk and only the spoilt and the ignorant think that the negative outcomes won't happen to them.
    
    Just a question and I have some natural answers if this person was so ready to stand up for their rights why weren't they willing to fight in the country they were fleeing from?
    
    I know that corrupt governments often target other family members and do we really want another Syria where both sides did in the main decide to stay and fight,,, which made the situation so much worse.
    
    This wasn't the Hunger Games this guy had choices uncertainty and stress as well but still choices.
    
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  - PP:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:21:48pm
    
    Please don't speak for me Bean. You have no right to express views on my behalf. Oh and I'm not a "lefty", I just have compassion for other human beings - something you clearly lack.
    
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- aGuy:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:16:32pm
  
  80% economic refugees according to Bob Carr. I know the Australian assessment process confirms most, with Europe confirming less. I have no faith in the assessment process to determine the claims.
  
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  - PP:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:22:32pm
    
    And how would Bob Carr now? Does he assess all of their applications personally?
    
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- Dave:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:16:38pm
  
  We take many refugees from UN camps in Africa and, for the most part, we welcome them and they assimilate well.
  
  What we oppose, as a general national trait, is Indonesian crooks determining who comes here and not a process around needs or suitability. We are also concerned that the refugees with money get to come here via Indonesia whereas their poorer cousins are denied this opportunity. Where is the justice there? If refugees are 'running for their lives', why fly to Indonesia and THEN get on a leaky boat in dangerous waters, just when you've actually arrived in a safe place?
  
  I will admit that a lot of the political handwringing about deaths at sea is more convenient than heartfelt but it's also an important point in the context of the wider discussion.
  
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  - PP:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:24:56pm
    
    "If refugees are 'running for their lives', why fly to Indonesia and THEN get on a leaky boat in dangerous waters, just when you've actually arrived in a safe place?"
    
    Erm because Indonesia is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention and therefore they cannot lodge asylum claims there. It's quite simple. As for you "general national trait" - unless you personally know the majority of the Australian population then you have no right or basis to speak on their behalf.
    
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- APM:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:17:58pm
  
  'Refugees who are running for their lives'
  
  and kept running thousands of kilometres forgetting to stop in other safe countries along the way before happening upon a wealthy country, and probably would have been safer at home than getting on a dodgy boat, and were so truthful about their claims that they destroyed their documents to make the truth impossible to determine, and who routinely travel back to their country of origin as soon as they have their residency, and resort to extreme violence to avoid living in PNG because it doesn't suit them.
  
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- Rudd hypocrasy:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:18:04pm
  
  The depravity of the human condition is seen in our politicians of both stripes.
  
  Kevin Rudd's "Christianity" in action brought this about. For someone who visited the Pope at World Youth Day and is a copious reader of theology, we now see the 'fruits' of that religion: a dead man and multiple seriously injured. Never mind the limbo they are stuck in. Guess he WASN'T thinking about the parable of the sheep and the goats, the good Samaritan, the importance of hospitality and condemnation of refusing it in the Old Testament? Or most of the Bible for that matter. No one expects perfection but this should be ETHICS 101 for someone who calls himself a Christian.
  
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- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:21:46pm
  
  "It is shameful and the people who voted for 'stop the boats' should be ashamed of their selfishness and lack of compassion."
  
  Well WP that must have been about 80% of the voting population as both major political parties took stopping the boats to the election.
  
  "And our politicians who will do this to people so they can have power"
  
  No they do it because that is what their voters want.
  
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  - PP:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:26:32pm
    
    I must have missed the bit on my ballot paper that said "you are voting to stop the boats and only for this campaign promise". Can you provide a copy?
    
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- Mortan:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:37:13pm
  
  How long will your cushy little life style last if your overrun with economic refugees I am ashamed too that for six years people arrived at will.
  
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  - anarcho-syndiclist:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:58:52pm
    
    I would give up my cushy lifestyle in a flash if it meant I could walk with my head held high, without shame, without being responsible for murder and violence, walk as a good man, better than the so called religious right who currently lead us.
    
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- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:48:17pm
  
  It was Kevin Rudd who said he wanted Manus Island to be "hell on earth".
  
  Looks like Rudd got at least one policy right
  
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  - Trent Toogood:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:45:15pm
    
    You of course can back up that outrageous statement with fact
    
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- Tax the churches:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:02:46pm
  
  "extremely comfortable lifestyle"?
  Just ask any pensioner who busted their guts over a lifetime and now facing their due entitlements "scrutinized".
  Meanwhile, the processing of economic "refugees" cost many times more per head than the poor bugger pensioner who has not been able to purchase new clothes in living memory.
  
  I am certainly not a Coalition supporter, but in this instance I do approve Scott Morrison's approach.
  
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- Horrocks:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:04:43pm
  
  well wining pom, you are free to go back to the old dart if you so wish, or are you a refugee from their economy or weather :-)
  
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- Kevin Freer:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:59:01pm
  
  Don't include me in your your royal "we"
  
  I certainly do not subscribe to your concept.
  
  And if you are so ashamed of "we" and our behaviours there are plenty of options open to you. For a start you could promulgate your philosophies and stand for election as a Labor politician. You appear to display the correct amount of irrational thought processes to make you ideal for the position
  
  You could feel right at home, ashamed AND responsible all at the one time.
  
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Kavieng Connection:

21 Feb 2014 2:14:38pm

Ignore the truth at your peril Graeme.

I live in New Ireland - just nearby Manus.

The story I was told - and as was reported yesterday by the ABC correspondent Liam - is that Asylum seekers badgered and sledged G4S security guards about their race, country and families.

That was the spark. Tell me anyone who handles bad words being said about their own country ? G4S guards retaliated. The guards may have gone too far. But neither the guards , nor Australia, started the problem.

Let me see - 14 year old girl an Eddie Mcgurie called Adam Goodes "ape" and "King Kong" ? Adam was not seen as the the cause. The girl and Eddie were pilloried. Faair enough.

Likewise - your asylum seekers were the instigators. Just like when the riots have occurred in Australia. The headline of course is that asylum seekers were injured. The truth is they brought it upon themselves.

Let me see as well. if an Australian heckles an asylum seeker in Australia - the Australian is arrested. Yet an Asylum seeker heckling a PNG citizen, in PNG - is deemed a victim ?

Alert moderator
- GJA:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:39:52pm
  
  Someone was murdered for heckling? And you think that's o.k.? You have no moral compass.
  
  Alert moderator
  - APM:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:52:57pm
    
    If you saw the footage you will know that this was not heckling but a violent mob on a rampage and next to impossible to stop without significant force. Whatever happens after people choose to act in this way is at least partially their own fault. They have been allowed some degree of freedom, unlike a jail, and they have abused it. Now they will be kept in more harsh circumstances. It is a slippery slope to excuse just one group for behaving this way.
    
    Alert moderator
- MJLC:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:54:33pm
  
  "Tell me anyone who handles bad words being said about their own country?"
  
  Interesting.
  
  The next time one of the Alan Jones's of this world launches into another of these "This country is a mess because <insert pet rant here>..." routines, please feel free to fire light calibre ammunition into the air with my blessing.
  
  Alert moderator
- JJLTD:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:19:18pm
  
  So, if a prisoner heckles a guard, and the guard beats the prisoner, that is an appropriate response?
  
  I think not.
  
  Alert moderator
- Tom1:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:24:25pm
  
  would not presume to take sides in this issue, as hopefully the truth will eventually out.
  
  I would not stake my life on the hearsay facts as presented by you though.
  
  We have asylum seekers, apparently with a good knowledge of the language, apparently sledging four security guards, and drew a reaction to the point where one of them was killed.
  
  Stranger things have happened, but I think I will wait for the proper inquiry.
  
  By the way I am not a bleeding heart, I just wish that this situation was not the result of one political party in Australia trying to outdo the other, and one in particular using it as a pathway into government.
  
  Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:33:24pm
  
  What are you going to do further to punish an asylum seeker for racial slurs? Throw him in jail?
  
  If Adam had killed Eddie and beaten the little girl, do you think he'd have been allowed to get away with it?
  
  Alert moderator
- James Picone:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:35:54pm
  
  'may have gone too far'? I would call murdering a man going too far, yes.
  
  Alert moderator
- 2dogs (the fake one):
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:53:09pm
  
  "But neither the guards , nor Australia, started the problem."
  
  Yes because neither Australia sent them there (and does not create any of the conditions outlined in this article, read much?) and the guards did not bash unarmed, men women and children?
  
  You do understand the difference between heckling a person and bashing them to death right? I mean you do understand that there is a difference and that the first never, ever gives any person the right to do the second? Because if you cannot understand the difference then there is no point in arguing this point with you.
  
  Alert moderator
- Snake:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:17:40pm
  
  The Iranian man was murdered. All other asylum seeker deaths have been accidents.
  
  The moral line is drawn right there, whatever justification and spin you choose to put on it.
  
  Alert moderator
- Schuey:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:25:21pm
  
  The G4S guards should be trained to take absolutely no notice of heckling no matter how crude or insulting.
  
  G4S needs to be stripped of the contract
  
  Oh look. It already has.
  
  Alert moderator
  - ThingFish:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:18:34pm
    
    "Tell me anyone who handles bad words being said about their own country ?"
    
    I'll tell you who! Professionals who are PAID to work in a difficult environment where those they are PAID to manage might say bad words being said about their country, that's who!
    
    Alert moderator
  - anarcho-syndiclist:
    
    21 Feb 2014 8:02:07pm
    
    A quick google search of G4S shows a litany of "accidental" deaths, incompetence, brutality and mispropriety. One wonder if these qualities were a tender requirement!
    
    Alert moderator
whogoesthere:

21 Feb 2014 2:14:41pm

I had a look at the Amnesty report, following is a bit about a boat journey. This is a very complex and difficult issue. But, other then 'stopping the boats' how can this type of story be stopped. The refugees are desperate, but boat people advocates want this type of thing to continue, and that will mean we are 'compassionate' ?. The people smugglers lie to them and exploit them. Another story had a man decide it was too dangerous, but he couldn't get his money back so he lost it all. There must be a better way. I think most people are accepting of Australia having a refugee intake, if we stop the boats but keep taking refugees what harm is done ?. Sure some will lose out, but someone else will gain. There will never be a win for everyone until there is peace in the whole world.

?We arrived at the water. The boat was there, ready, but we waited a bit, until about 1am. They said we
couldn?t sail at that moment; we had to wait until the
water came back to a certain level. Then we got in the
boat.

?I believe that this was just a game. I think they just stopped the boat from going until the smuggler received
all the payments. They had all of us call the smuggler before we left.

?Two people on board were armed. They came with us on the boat and stayed with us until we had travelled for
five or six hours, then they left in a small boat they were towing behind us. There was a crew of three that stayed on the boat.

?We travelled for seven nightsand six days. It was very hard. We didn?t have any food. There was just enough
for everybody to have one potato or one egg. It was very dirty. There was a pregnant woman on the boat. It was
very difficult.

?Something went wrong with the boat. It kept breaking down. They would fix it, and it would break down again.
?The water was coming into the boat, and everybody was trying to pour the water back into the ocean.
?There were 130 or 131 people on the boat. It was about 10 metres by 3 metres. It was very old. When the Navy
took us onto their barge, we were looking at the boat, and we were surprised that we had made it.?

Alert moderator
- John Coochey :
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:22:18pm
  
  So what is your point? There are millions of genuine refugees in the world and millions more who would like to live in Australia. How many should we take and what should we do when more arrive than the quota? Or are you in favor of open borders?
  
  Alert moderator
- Mortan:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:41:59pm
  
  I don't get this no one held a gun to your head and said go to Australia or be shot did they. Now you complain about the journey.
  
  Help me out what am I missing here.
  
  Alert moderator
- Schuey:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:34:03pm
  
  "There must be a better way. I think most people are accepting of Australia having a refugee intake, if we stop the boats but keep taking refugees what harm is done ?. Sure some will lose out, but someone else will gain. "
  
  Hi who goes there. Sensible post.
  
  You do realise there are some in our society who cannot Accept there has to be a limit to our efforts to save these poor people. They think that every genuine refugee who wants to come must be catered for.
  
  Sensible moderate people like you and me see there has to be an intake of refugees but there has to be a limit. In order for there to be a limit there must be control and order. It is not a lack of compassion, for i think we are both compassionate, it is simply a realisation that we are bound by resource constraints and thus need to impose order on the process.
  
  Alert moderator
Graham H:

21 Feb 2014 2:17:13pm

This weeks violence has escalated the need for a bigger and better covered fence - to deal with Asylum Seekers venting their anger on others.

They have a proven track record of violence and riot damage.

Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:51:44pm
  
  Yes, and of shooting themselves and cutting their own throats and beating themselves with fan belts.
  
  The fence should be built bigger and better, to protect them.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Zing:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:44:12pm
    
    Trent. I know you were trying to point out how ridiculous Graham's comment was. But all you did was harm your own case.
    
    Detainees also have a proven reputation for self harm. So it's quite possible that the detainees would beat themselves with fanbelts, or even slit their own throats, if they thought it would help them get into Australia.
    
    Given recent events, it's likely they might hurt other people for the very same reason.
    
    Alert moderator
- Jimmy Necktie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:23:48pm
  
  nah, we need a complicated system of robotic laser turrets. something for the manufacturing industry to do. we could become world leaders in robotic laser turretry. happy days.
  
  Alert moderator
- Desert Woman:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:33:21pm
  
  Have you considered that if you corner any animal, it will fight? Humans are no different. The circumstances on Manus sound horrific and it has been suggested that they amount to torture. Is that OK with you? Would you just lie down and allow them to destroy your mind? None of us know know the full facts but we will in time. In the meantime, we should wonder whether yelling at somebody is a crime deserving of the death penalty.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Zing:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:45:53pm
    
    If rioting was punishable by immediate deportation, I'm sure the riots would stop.
    
    At this stage, the debate isn't about guards killing a detainee. It's about detainees rioting.
    
    Alert moderator
  - John:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:07:39pm
    
    They are not cornered, Desert Woman.
    
    They are free to go home, in comfort and safety, as soon as they ask.
    
    These people are fighting because they have not been given access to Australia and that that entails. They are blackmailing us, fighting the guards at Manus Island, and injuring themselves.
    
    Don't tell me that a riot that used iron bars from broken beds, clubs embedded with pieces of broken bottles, sticks with nails driven through them and similar weapons was a spontaneous outbreak of outrage at being called names.
    
    Alert moderator
- APM:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:35:24pm
  
  The logical conclusion, and the experience of other people from these backgrounds already here is that we are importing cultures who are prone to violence and other forms of extremism that are eerily similar to where they come from - failed societies. It seems prudent in the public interest to include such judgements in asylum outcomes. Frankly, any significant criminal behaviour in detention should result in automatic forfeiture of these things some call rights.
  
  Alert moderator
Judy Bee:

21 Feb 2014 2:17:16pm

This whole policy is cruel. Australia has a duty of care to people seeking asylum. In another ten years, it doesn't matter who is in government..nothing will change, just the number of refugees will increase. It is not a political problem, it is a humanity problem.

This stop the boats by any means is doomed. The people will still come. The criminals who trade in people will continue to profit, it is a multi million dollar industry.

Alert moderator
- JoeBloggs:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:59:55pm
  
  ".. it is a multi million dollar industry"
  
  No wonder those in power in Indonesia are getting annoyed at the current Australian policies.
  
  Alert moderator
- Alphamikefoxtrot:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:09:05pm
  
  You contradict yourself Judy. Preventing people from drowning and being otherwise ripped off by international criminal murderers cannot be seen as cruel. The fact that movement of illegals from Malaysia to Indonesia (en route to Australia) is down by 71% and there is evidence of illegals moving back to Malaysia from Indonesia gives some hope that the trade my be broken in this area at least. While thinking about his, remember that Australia resettles far more refugees than most countries. in 2012 only 27 countries resettled refugees, with Australia second, beaten only by Canada. In relation to Sri Lankan refugees, I read somewhere that of the 30-odd countries a refugee boat would pass or come near to on a journey from Sri Lanka to Australia, we are the only signatory to the UN Refugee Convention. Yes, this is a political and humanitarian problem, but I personally wouldn't be so quick to criticise ourselves.
  
  Alert moderator
- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:53:09pm
  
  And how will these come?
  
  Numbers of potential asylum seekers are arriving in Indonesia in ever decreasing numbers, Just a fraction of previously.
  
  Many who were already in Indonesia are moving back up the line to Malayasia and beyond as they realise they will not get to Australia via a boat from Indonesia.
  
  The Indonesians should be sending us a thank you letter for getting rid of their problem with the thousands who used to flock into Indonesia
  
  Alert moderator
- Schuey:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:40:51pm
  
  "This whole policy is cruel. Australia has a duty of care to people seeking asylum. In another ten years, it doesn't matter who is in government..nothing will change, just the number of refugees will increase. It is not a political problem, it is humanity problem"
  
  Judy
  
  The policy is tough, possibly cruel but it is short term until people realise 'they shalt not pass"
  
  If the makority will it, the policy will change.
  
  It is a humanitarian problem that requires politics to fix it. Politics is the only method we currently have to agree on a course of action for the macro level strategic issues the left and right cant agree on.
  
  Alert moderator
- PW:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:42:17pm
  
  So what should we do, Judy? Open Australia to anyone who wants to come? Can you possibly imagine the ramifications of that course of action?
  
  Alert moderator
Realist:

21 Feb 2014 2:18:50pm

Yes, it is surprising that when Kevin Rudd announced the establishment of Manus Island detention camp that Amnesty International did not react more strongly. It is fine to be wise after the event but that helps little.

In the meantime these people do have the option of returning home any time they wish. It is hard to believe that conditions are so bad when they refuse to choose that option.

However, it won't be long now and Manus, along with the rest of the detention centres, will be closed because they will no longer be needed. By getting behind this government and its effective policies Amnesty International could help ensure we would never again see thousands of helpless people drown at sea and there would be no more tragedies in detention centres.

Why is it Amnesty doesn't seem to want to prevent such needless loss of life?

Alert moderator
- Alphamikefoxtrot:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:57:21pm
  
  'Why is it Amnesty doesn't seem to want to prevent such needless loss of life?' Because it doesn't fit their irrational, touchy-feely open boarders view of the world. Like Sarah Sea-Patrol and many who post here, 1200 drownings are just collateral damage in their ideological war.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Schuey:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:45:00pm
    
    It truly is an idealogical war.
    Left want refugees in. Right want refugees out.
    
    Looking at it pragmatically we should:
    
    A) increase our refugee intake from UN camps. The refugees are safe in those calps till we get them.
    
    B) discourage uncontrolled migration by boat. It is unecessarily dangerous.
    
    That is all.
    
    Alert moderator
- ephemeral:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:07:19pm
  
  I think rather this is rather telling on what conditions are like back home. Even the Australian gulag torture camp is better than going back. That does not make it right to treat people poorly.
  
  Alert moderator
- Nick of Hobart:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:34:14pm
  
  'In the meantime these people do have the option of returning home any time they wish. It is hard to believe that conditions are so bad when they refuse to choose that option.'
  
  Of course, there is maybe (just maybe) the very slightest possibility that they have arrived here not merely on a whim. That no matter how mentally scaring, humiliating or degrading things are in detention, they still consider themselves to be better off in detention than suffer the persecution and death threats they received in their countries of origin. Like paying large amounts of money in order to travel on the open sea in boats clearly not designed to tackle such a journey. With the very real possible loss of life that may incur in undertaking such a hazardous journey, such an action might just (only 'just' mind) be the act of someone so desperate that their ability to value their own safety has been eroded beyond any possible rational degree rather than an economic opportunist. Not that this applies in this case as they are all clearly economic migrants. Clearly.
  
  Alert moderator
- Philip:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:34:56pm
  
  Doesn't the fact that these people would rather stay on Manus Island, despite the problems there, tell you something about the conditions they would be returning to at 'home'?
  
  Alert moderator
  - John:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:24:17pm
    
    No, Phillip, it doesn't tell us anything of the sort.
    
    These illegal arrivals never even contemplated Manus Island. They came in full confidence, probably bolstered by the people smugglers and successful entrants from earlier boats, of going to Christmas Island, with full accommodation, food, medical, recreational and other facilities provided for a few weeks, and then being transferred into the community on the mainland, with access to very generous welfare and support services.
    
    They are rioting simply because they have been told that they will not be getting that treatment and that neither Australia nor PNG will arrange for them to be accepted into a third country.
    
    Alert moderator
Ben the lawyer:

21 Feb 2014 2:22:09pm

'An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven'

Without wanting to sound heartless, that isn't entirely true. Whilst not illegal to seek asylum in Australia, it is illegal to board a boat and attempt to sail into Australian waters and onto Australian land without permission. So, in that sense, he was not entirely 'innocent'. A more accurate statement would have been 'a man came to Australia in search of a safe haven.' I can understand why you chose to frame it the way you did, but it doesn't excuse the error.

'Some of these men have now endured seven months of this treatment, with no idea of when their ordeal will come to an end.'

It is my understanding that should the men in question decide to go back to Iran, Australia will allow that. So, their 'ordeal' (nice emotive language by the way) could have ended relatively quickly.

Alert moderator
- carbon-based lifeform:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:54:52pm
  
  Ben the non-Lawyer:
  You are just repeating the lies told by Tony Abbottoir and his henchmen.
  
  Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 4:55:55pm
  
  So if it's illegal to come by boat, why do we bother to process them at all?
  
  Why did we let in the thousands of Vietnamese who came by boat after the Vietnam war?
  
  Did they get permission first?
  
  Alert moderator
  - China:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:21:55pm
    
    Because,nTrent, the Vietnamese mostly did NOT come by boat. They were mostly brought here by plane from camps in SE Asia.
    
    Alert moderator
  - Twenty Five Cents:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:23:23pm
    
    Trent TooGood
    
    Did they burn down detention centers and fuel the rhetoric we see today?
    
    Did they arrive wearing gold and looking like gym members?
    
    Did they burn our flag and expel a belief that we are second class people as per the dogma of religious affirmation?
    
    Did they demand that we all eat the food of their belief system and country?
    
    Did they demand that only their kind could take certain jobs?
    
    NO
    
    No matter how much we give, no matter how fair we try to be it will never be enough for this current shipment of discontent.
    
    The penchant for ideological warfare on Australian soil was never a concern with the Vietnamese, they worked and molded themselves into our immigrant foundations.
    
    I don't see that in this current wave of transients.
    
    Alert moderator
    - Steve:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:23:31pm
      
      Twenty Five Cents here here well said and spot on but please dont expect to change the minds of the apologists and Labor Party hacks that post here on a constant basis, this is ALPBC after all. Your comment is the truth these people will never see nor ackowledge. The immagrants of the 1950's etc did not expect handouts they blended into society and made our nation great, was their riots in the Bathurst and Greta camps back then? not on your life why wont people see this for what it is, come on Tony stay strong and defend our borders and allow this nation to maintain the ethos of determining who and when we let in.
      
      Alert moderator
    - Trent Toogood:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:29:38pm
      
      I'm not too sure where you get your facts from TFC.
      
      Perhaps you could enlighten us?
      
      Alert moderator
  - A happy little debunker:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:28:13pm
    
    No, they did not ask permission - we actually offered them a safe haven,
    
    Most of the Vietnamese boat people actually landed in southeast Asia, principally the countries of Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, and Singapore and were resettled from there to 3rd party countries like Australia.
    
    Over 90 000 Vietnamese were re-settled in Australia, but only 2801 arrived in 59 boats between 1975 - 1981
    
    Compared to 742 Boats landed during the 5 year period 2008-2013 containing 44156 illegal arrivals.
    
    Alert moderator
    - John:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:29:09pm
      
      Not entirely correct, Ahld.
      
      Australia set up facilities in Malaysia and the other locations where the Vietnamese had been settled and asked anyone who sought re-settlement in Australia to apply and complete the required identity, background, security and health formalities.
      
      They did ask permission to enter, and they answered all questions relative to their requests.
      
      We did not offer safe haven to anyone. The people in those camps were already in possession of safe haven.
      
      Alert moderator
    - Trent Toogood:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:33:48pm
      
      And the 2801 who came by boat would have been illegals wouldnt they?
      
      Surely they should have been persecuted the same way the current lot are?
      
      Or hadn't we stooped so low as to try and gain political mileage out of asylum seekers at that stage?
      
      Alert moderator
    - John:
      
      21 Feb 2014 8:08:56pm
      
      No, Trent, they were not illegal entrants because the boats upon which they travelled came from Vietnam to Australia direct. Those people did not transit several other countries en route.
      
      And, yes, they were subjected to the same scrutiny, investigation and treatment as the people in Nauru or Manus Island.
      
      The great difference was that the Vietnamese were scrupulously honest, presented passports, identity documents, letters from previous employes, school histories and similar and answered every question and fulfilled every requirement asked of them.
      
      They were co-operative to the last degree and that attitude of honesty is, undoubtedly, what has made them such fine Australians.
      
      Alert moderator
  - Keith Lethbridge Snr:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:48:56pm
    
    G'day Trent.
    
    Regarding the Vietnamese refugees, our government made a decision at the time, to allow them to come here. Some Australians agreed, some didn't. Those who didn't agree, accepted the right of their democratically elected representatives to make that decision.
    
    Today, our government has also made a decision to allow thousands of refugees to come to Australia, but has determined that these shall not be people arriving on unauthorised boats. Some Australians agree, some don't. Those who don't agree should accept the right of their democratically elected representatives to make that decision.
    
    In between elections, we all have the right to protest, within reasonable limitations.
    
    The beauty of this system is that there will be future opportunities for voters to elect different representatives if they wish. It's not a perfect system, but it seems to work.
    
    Regards,
    
    Cobber
    
    Alert moderator
- MJLC:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:08:32pm
  
  I can't think you ever win too many cases if that's a demonstration of your legal logic.
  
  It isn't illegal to board any boat if the owner has given you permission.
  
  It isn't illegal to ATTEMPT to sail anywhere.
  
  It isn't even remotely intelligent to attempt to sail onto land, be it Australian land or indeed any other.
  
  It isn't likely to be tremendously welcomed in legal circles discovering that " ...not entirely 'innocent' " has just been invented as a new plea option for people accused of wrongdoing.
  
  Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:17:21pm
  
  It is irrelevant whether asylum seekers enter Australian waters illegally or not.
  
  They should not be penalized for illegal entry or stay.
  
  That is what the Refugee Convention states, you know, the one we signed.
  
  Nothing about boarding boats.
  
  Thats all in your imagination.
  
  Alert moderator
- aGuy:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:18:47pm
  
  I just remember a friend who spent ten years in Sudan waiting for his assessment to be completed. In that time two of his children died.
  
  Seven months in nothing. The queue is decades long.
  
  Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:37:46pm
  
  Not one claim processed to see if they are genuinely being persecuted. Not one.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Trent Toogood:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:35:32pm
    
    Yes Benny. do you get the impression that this government could not care less about these people?
    
    Alert moderator
- Tom1:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:47:36pm
  
  Ben: The fact that the man, according to you may not have been "Innocent" hardly seems to make any difference. Our policy is the same. I am not sure that it is illegal to board a boat, it is only the bit about attempting to land in Australia that is illegal. I suppose it is alright to assume that all of the people our navy stops are destined for Australian waters.
  
  I am also against the trade of human misery by people smugglers, and accept that we need to do something about it. What I abhor is the race to the bottom, and the competition between both parties to be the one to receive political credit for being most successful.
  
  The Libs have not won that race yet, despite reassuring us that it would be a cakewalk if they were given power.
  
  If they do succeed they will be able to claim to the world that their greatest achievement in their governance of Australia was stopping a few leaky boats from arriving on our shores.
  
  Alert moderator
- maddoga:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:12:52pm
  
  Ben,
  
  You sure have a way with gooblygook," I can understand why you chose to frame it that way, but it doesn't excuse the error"
  
  Could you explain to me in your best Lawyer jargon, how our Navy got lost on at least six occasions in Indonesian waters with out reasonable excuse for the error? considering a sixteen year old girl circumnavigated the world in a yacht with far less sophisticated navigational equipment than our Navy. She did not get lost!
  
  Try your gooblygook on that!
  
  Alert moderator
  - SVJ:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:20:30pm
    
    Dog,
    
    If you don't understand the difference then no amount of 'gooblygook' will help you. And here's a hint.....it has nothing to do with accuracy of navigation.
    
    Alert moderator
Giana:

21 Feb 2014 2:22:22pm

Why not tell us how the long suffering genuine refugees in camps are going while they wait their turn behind all the cashed up boat people that have taken their places for a change.
All ABC are intersted in publishing is Abbott hate.

Alert moderator
- ThatFlemingGent:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:14:38pm
  
  "Why not tell us how the long suffering genuine refugees in camps are going while they wait their turn behind all the cashed up boat people that have taken their places for a change"
  
  These are genuine refugees despite the efforts of insular, xenophobic politicians pandering to likeminded bogans to claim otherwise. Perhaps it'll take some Pavlov/B. F. Skinner style behavioural management to get that fact through to you
  
  "All ABC are intersted in publishing is Abbott hate."
  
  Oh cry some more - go back to the teat of News Corpse/Murdoch's Die Stermer if you don't like news actually reported and not just wrapped in a neoliberal grub-Right lying narrative.
  
  Alert moderator
  - OverIt:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:29:02pm
    
    Flaming Gent, "These are genuine refugees....."
    How can you possibly know that? To assume that every single person who boards a boat to try to gain a better life in Australia is a genuine refugee is na?ve in the extreme. Do you seriously think that those who seek a better life, for whatever reason, wouldn't learn to tell a good story if that helps them get what they want?
    
    That's not to say that all asylum seekers are not genuine. Just that you cannot possibly know which are and which aren't, and for somebody to claim that anyone is a genuine refugee when they actually don't have a clue doesn't add that person's credibility.
    
    Alert moderator
    - PP:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:37:47pm
      
      "That's not to say that all asylum seekers are not genuine. Just that you cannot possibly know which are and which aren't, and for somebody to claim that anyone is a genuine refugee when they actually don't have a clue doesn't add that person's credibility."
      
      The fact that you cannot see the hypocrisy in your own statement is rather amusing. And quite sad.
      
      Alert moderator
  - mortan:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:21:44pm
    
    What a clever little Vegemite we have here he knows genuine refugees from economic refugees from the comfort of his desk and also has the gall to attempt to banish a fellow poster for having an opinion he does not like.
    
    And he would be one of those who have the audacity to call Abbott arrogant.
    
    Alert moderator
  - Schuey:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:22:39pm
    
    Flaming gent states 100% of refugees are genuine
    
    Bob Carr states 80% are not.
    
    Who do i believe?
    
    Alert moderator
- Tom1:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:09:59pm
  
  Giana: Ah, the ABC again: I tell you what. You should have switched over to Contrarians on Sky News tonight.Paul Murray was the presenter. You know how even handed he is. He is not only the presenter, but the chief Murdoch Lackey for the Liberal party. Peter VanOnsonen was absent, but although he is also Murdoch he sometimes tells the truth about the LNP, probably against orders.
  
  Murray had Ross Cameron, and Rowan Deane, and John Stanley as guests.
  
  You can tell how balanced the commentary was. Poor old John Stanley was almost apologetic if he said anything even slightly in favour of Labor.
  
  If you want solely Liberal clap trap watch Sky news, and leave the ABC for those more discerning.
  
  Do not worry about your tax dollars paying for the ABC, my tax dollars pay for Tony Abbott's travelling allowance he claims for whilst he is on all of those community activities, I do not like that either.
  
  Alert moderator
- Thomas:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:12:41pm
  
  Very good point Giana. If refugee advocates in Australia are seriously concerned about desperate refugee's they would be in camps and asking them what it feels like to be pushed back in line while people getting to Australia on boats take their places. That seems to be a conversation advocates in Australia don't want to have or put to air unfortunately.
  Or we ever seem to hear about or from are people who can afford to pay people smugglers to get here.
  Also agree that it appears to be more about attacking the Abbott Govt, and nothing much else.
  Refugee advocates? Hardly.
  
  Alert moderator
PeterB:

21 Feb 2014 2:26:45pm

If Australia can't guarantee people's safety in immigration detention centres then we shouldn't be interning people in those centres. We owe a duty to asylum seekers to investigate their claims and where they are found to be refugees provide protection. Instead we choose to shunt them off to third countries where they are now clearly and unambiguously at risk. While it is commendable that we also choose to take refugees under the humanitarian migration program, that in no way removes our responsibility to those asylum seekers on our territory. And finally the boats haven't stopped, they are being intercepted and towed back.

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- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:51:49pm
  
  " We owe a duty to asylum seekers to investigate their claims"
  
  Asylum seekers can make their clams at any Australian embassy anywhere in the world.If they want to try and circumvent those arrangements then they will suffer the consequences.
  
  Alert moderator
  - PP:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:40:10pm
    
    "Asylum seekers can make their clams at any Australian embassy anywhere in the world"
    
    No they can't Evan, they can only make them by arriving in the country in which they wish to make a claim for asylum. Why do you think they board boats if they could just rock up to an Australian embassy anywhere and make a claim? Do try and stick to facts.
    
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- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:55:22pm
  
  Then blame Kevin Rudd and the ALP as the camps are working under the agreement Rudd signed with PNG government.
  
  Alert moderator
- APM:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:07:57pm
  
  They are at no risk, except against each other, unless they perform criminal acts. We cannot guarantee that people do not do stupid things unless we turn these places into fully fledged prisons. I see things will develop in this direction as the policy will never change, because most people support it, and expect this sort of moral blackmail. Our desperation must overcome their desperation to push us around.
  
  Alert moderator
- OverIt:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:37:18pm
  
  Actually, Peter, what we do owe is a duty to Australian citizens to not unleash unknown, undocumented, potentially or actually violent men into the community.
  
  Oh, at the risk of stating what most people don't need to have explained, the boats actually have stopped arriving on Australian territory. Intercepting them and towing them back does tend to have that result.
  
  Alert moderator
Keith Lethbridge Snr:

21 Feb 2014 2:26:47pm

G'day Graeme.

Thanks for your article.

The good thing about detention at Manus Island is that it's not compulsory. People only end up there if they knowingly & deliberately attempt to circumvent our government's clearly stated policies.

Although detainees might have burnt their bridges, I'm sure the Australian government would have no objection if they requested to leave Manus Island & return to wherever they came from. The government might even pay the fares.

However cruel & inhumane it may be, Manus Island detention appears to be entirely voluntary & self-inflicted.

None of the thousands of refugees accepted to Australia from United Nations camps in Africa or elsewhere, end up in detention. It's only those who make their own decision to challenge the Australian government's right to decide who comes here & under what circumstances.

Regards,

Cobber

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- DaveS:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:01:25pm
  
  Keith , regardless of what you or I think asylum seekers have a right to be protected from violence and inhumane conditions.
  That's more the point I got from Graemes article , and I think we should all take a breathe and wait to see what the reports into the latest events tells us.
  Otherwise some might look to far into the removal of the PNG Police flying squad from close to the facility....
  
  Alert moderator
- ephemeral:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:12:35pm
  
  Not correct at all, if you come on a student or work visa, then claim asylum you do not end up in an off shore processing centre. For some reason we have singled out those who come by boat. If nothing else, conservatives should be pushing for community placement which is a far cheaper and cost effective option. The only reason we do not do this is because we are trying to use the poor conditions to dissuade people from coming in the first place, right... there is no other reason is there and when you put it like that it does not make us look very good at all.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Yorker:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:44:46pm
    
    It's not "for some reason," it's because it's a backdoor entry that allows you to destroy your paperwork before you arrive. These people are paying way more than a plane ticket, and that's because their claims could easily be investigated if they had the documents required to board a plane. They aren't coming by boat for fun, otherwise I assume they would choose some sort of cruise liner, and having made it here would have the same rights as the plane arrivals.
    
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- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:46:21pm
  
  Hear hear Keith
  
  A lot of people seem to be under the impression Manus Is is a holiday home and not a deterrent.
  
  Alert moderator
- 2dogs (the fake one):
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:02:50pm
  
  "However cruel & inhumane it may be, Manus Island detention appears to be entirely voluntary & self-inflicted. "
  
  Unless of course there is the risk of death from the country that they have fled, right? But I mean it is not like any of them would be fleeing a country where you could be killed for openly questioning the main religion of that country? Or perhaps raped and tortured for your ethnicity?
  Or how about even being shot from one group for supporting an invading army or blown up by a hellfire missile from that same invading army because you were standing too close to a "suspect". And how did that war start again? Have we found any WMD yet? Must be nice to forget history and ignore facts.
  
  Alert moderator
Geno:

21 Feb 2014 2:27:16pm

It is almost impossible to believe after all this time that no one has been processed. It is also impossible to believe that after all the problems experienced in the initial Pacific Solution and the problems with mental health that we are not making a greater effort with this group. Regardless of our views about how they come here and any right they may have to proper treatment we do have an obligation if they are in a detention centre we are funding and sent there by us that they should be safe from brutality from their gaolers and should not fear for their lives. They should also at the very least be given the information they need as to when they may be processed as the most basic form of administrative fairness. This current Pacific Solution is likely to tarnish our reputation as a country and weaken our voice when we speak about the basic human rights of others and of Australians being held overseas for whatever reason.

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- John Coochey :
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:32:30pm
  
  The conditions on Christmas Island are better than I experienced when working bush in Australia, food at least as good as working on the Tassie Hydro and twin airconditioned accommodation better than I had on the oilrigs (Barrow Island with daytime temp over forty) so what is the problem except that they want to come to Australia?
  
  Alert moderator
- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:59:17pm
  
  The Gillard closed down processing in detention camps for months.
  
  No one in any detention camp on the mainland or Christmas Island was processed by Australian officials.
  
  That has resulted in a back log of 30,000 people in Australia the Abbott government has to process.
  
  Did you rail against Gillard government processing no one for months??
  
  Alert moderator
Politically Incorrect:

21 Feb 2014 2:27:42pm

I read a good article about this issue today: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/manus-island-so-many-questions-one-simple-solution-20140220-333sn.html

The following words should strike a chord with anyone who gives a toss about democratic integrity:

"Secrecy is completely inadequate for democracy but totally appropriate for tyranny. If the minister will not inform the public, then we are within our right to assume the worst. No free and fair nation operates with secrecy as a blanket policy position. Democracies are based on the foundation of public scrutiny and open government."

- Former Liberal PM Malcolm Fraser

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- Malachi Martin:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:25:19pm
  
  Speaking of tyranny, it was Fraser who was Minister for the Army in the Vietnam War days. Brings back not so fond memories. Now he is a cultural Marxist, and the worst kind; one with a silver spoon in his mouth.
  
  Alert moderator
- Mortan:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:47:06pm
  
  Look old Mal can sit on the farm and pontificate all he likes but I don't see him donating a thousand hectares and a few houses for Asylum seekers do I and he has got plenty.
  
  Alert moderator
  - James:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:48:08pm
    
    I think you'll find that old Mal has sold the farm after Lloyds of London called in their insurance money
    
    Alert moderator
- TCV:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:52:10pm
  
  As a former soldier and Vietnam veteran of the 60's I would distrust anything ever said by M. Fraser, one time minister of the army. Apart from which he continues to re-invent himself to the left of the greens.u
  
  Alert moderator
- Keith Lethbridge Snr:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:56:35pm
  
  G'day P I.
  
  Malcolm Fraser has every right to voice his opinion. When he was PM he had the opportunity to initiate all sorts of legislation. Then the voters had the opportunity to pass judgement, & out he went.
  
  The current government now has its opportunity. Let's see how they go & then we'll pass judgement at the next election.
  
  Regards,
  
  Cobber
  
  Alert moderator
Zing:

21 Feb 2014 2:28:23pm

The people in these centres are clearly willing to riot and disregard civil authority when they don't get what they want.

The rioters clearly pose a threat to the community and should be immediately deported, as permitted under the relevant conventions.

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- azalon:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:01:09pm
  
  ...or their claims processed expeditiously, zing?
  
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  - OverIt:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:39:21pm
    
    Their claims could be processed far more expeditiously if they didn't destroy their ID prior to arrival.
    
    Alert moderator
  - Zing:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:50:50pm
    
    Isn't that what I said? Process their claims expeditiously and deport them.
    
    The conventions don't require us to take anyone if they've demonstrated that they pose a threat to the community. If a person has shown they'll riot if they don't get what they want, they classify as a threat.
    
    Alert moderator
  - John:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:35:43pm
    
    They don't want their claims to be processed. If that were done fully and properly, they would be refused entry. They lie, cheat, delay, obstruct and hamper the processing process from the moment they destroy their passports and identity documents.
    
    What they want is to be allowed into Australia solely and only because they demand it.
    
    Alert moderator
- ephemeral:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:15:08pm
  
  If I was locked up in what basically amount to a concentration camp with no stated timeframe for release or even an explanation of the process and where I am now, I would be pretty upset myself. As the PNG MP commented these are educated people... probably better educated than you or I.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Schuey:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:26:51pm
    
    The refugees can go home at any time at our expense.
    
    Your example is not valid.
    
    Alert moderator
- lazarus:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:18:06pm
  
  They should be deported because they were attacked by PNG police and Security Guards. Heard it all now.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Zing:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:48:14pm
    
    It is unproven that they were attacked by police or guards.
    
    But it has been proven that they were rioting.
    
    Alert moderator
- BJ:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:10:16pm
  
  Zing,
  
  Eureka Stockade?
  
  The massacres carried out by White Australians on black?
  
  Far too simplistic - history is not likely to decide White Australia was right.
  
  Alert moderator
- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:43:46pm
  
  And you have personal knowledge that all those currently awaiting processing of their claims have destroyed their documents? Please post this proof so we can all see.
  
  Alert moderator
MJLC:

21 Feb 2014 2:31:48pm

When China can raise human rights concerns about this country as it has done;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-21/australias-asylum-seeker-policy-under-fire-from/5274170

then the full picture of just how low this country has sunk chasing the hillbilly vote sinks in.

When a communist dictatorship can, in all seriousness, complain about this country's behaviour - and Australians have the option of either sitting there with a mouth full of teeth and take it, or pathetically counter with "Oh yeah, well you're just as bad", then you know it's more than just humans being put into orange lifeboats and being towed away.

I congratulate the zealots who froth and foam about a few poxy boats to the exclusion of anything else for getting what they want. I'm just sorry it's cost this country its hard-won global standing and unquestioned right to a form of moral superiority over others to achieve it.

There's probably a very interesting Productivity Commission study in all of this.

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- Jimmy Necktie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:10:34pm
  
  again, well said. This is no way to run a railroad.
  
  Alert moderator
- custard:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:11:20pm
  
  MJLC,
  
  You must be the only person out there who takes human rights criticisms about Australia from China and Iran seriously.
  
  You cant be serious!
  
  This is your very own John McEnroe moment.
  
  Alert moderator
- Kevin Wunterm:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:20:01pm
  
  "a few poxy boats" was 40 thousand odd people under Ruddillard's watch, and accelerating. And that's the point that people like you don't comprehend....accelerating. "Oh 10,000 is nothing" people like you say. How about 50,000? 100,000? 200,000? How many do you think is acceptable? There was 13,000 in the first 6 months of 2013 alone.
  
  How people like you can be so naive is absolutely astounding.
  
  Keep up the good work Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison. Labor should never be trusted in government again based on this issue alone. What a disgusting debacle they created.
  
  Alert moderator
- Malachi Martin:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:38:39pm
  
  Can't you see the humour, tragedy and illogicality of your view? Mate, it was CHINA that criticized us. You know, Tiananmen Square, mass executions, using executed criminals for body parts, Cultural Revolution, Moa, terrorism exporter...that CHINA. If you take anything they say seriously, you must be posting from another planet.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Zing:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:56:45pm
    
    Agreed. China is the world's largest communist dictatorship. By it's mere existence, it constitutes a human rights violation on every one of it's citizens.
    
    And this is without considering the specific crimes China commits against individual citizens, which are probably uncountable.
    
    Alert moderator
- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:01:34pm
  
  This policy is the Kevin Rudd and the ALPs policy that he set up in his agreeemnt with the PNG government under which the camps etc are run.
  
  Abbott and Morrison were left to clean up the mess.
  
  Alert moderator
- OverIt:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:40:17pm
  
  Oh, you mean China of 'Tianenmen Square' fame?
  
  Alert moderator
Waterloo Sunset:

21 Feb 2014 2:32:25pm

I'd like to ask the author, why he thinks that the Iranian, chose to travel all the way to Java? Especially since he is a Kurd and he could have gone next door to Turkey.

He must have been well off to travel around too; plus the cost of paying the smugglers.

I don't know his circumstance, however the author may?

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- DaveS:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:18:50pm
  
  Id like to ask you why you think Kurds and Turks now get along so well?
  
  Alert moderator
  - John:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:38:38pm
    
    DaveS, the Kurds might not have everything in Turkey that they desire, but a Kurd moving there from Iran will receive asylum and safe haven. He will not have a refugee need to move on.
    
    Alert moderator
  - Waterloo Sunset:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:41:01pm
    
    Oh well I tabled a reply hph, but it hasn't appeared.
    
    lets just say that many Turks are Kurds as are many Iranians.
    
    Alert moderator
- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:47:17pm
  
  I didn't realise having access to money made you immune from persecution on religious or other grounds but thanks so much for enlightening me. I guess the fact he had money means his death is OK?
  
  Alert moderator
damon:

21 Feb 2014 2:32:26pm

While I appreciate that the author has his own agenda, one is inclined to wonder if refugees in other countries, after having reached safety, routinely riot and destroy the facilities in which they are housed, apparently because their claims are not processed swiftly enough for them. Maybe the difficulty is that they don't have any documents?

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- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:49:05pm
  
  Maybe the difficulty is they don't get locked up in inhumane conditions like they do here?
  
  Alert moderator
Boggs:

21 Feb 2014 2:33:09pm

Well, what do you expect when you get a PNG Constabulary Mobile Squad involved!
This branch of the PNG police is somehere a gang of heavily armed thugs and a paramilitary force.
I have first hand experience of them in operation. They are heavily armed with pump action shotguns, M16s and M79 grenade launchers (ostensibly to fire tear gas but I've seen frag and HE rounds in their bags)
These guys have to deal with extreme violence in the Highlands where gangs and inter-tribal fighting now sees the use of military weapons stolen or traded from the army, or smuggled in by illegal loggers. They are hard men, totally inappropriate for any sort of involvement with the Manus Island detention facility. They need a very firm hand to keep them on the leash. These squads are by their name "mobile" and despatched to trouble spots, so you have to question why they were there in the first place. Manus Island in general is not known as a trouble spot.
We don't have a responsibility to settle refugees in Australia, we have a responsibility to keep them safe and healthy.
We are obviously not doing either.

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- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:30:42pm
  
  Boggs Manus Is is supposed to be a deterent not a rest home for retired asylum seekers.If they do not like the conditions they are free to go home any time.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Trent Toogood:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:54:04pm
    
    Manus is supposed to be a deterrent.
    
    What rot!
    
    The deterrent was supposed to be, that you would not be settled in Australia.
    
    Stop making things up.
    
    Alert moderator
- John Coochey :
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:36:35pm
  
  Actually wrong on almost all counts. Any obligations to even genuine refugees that we have under international agreements or Australian law relates to those coming DIRECTLY from the country of persecution not to those who have decided to asylum shop for the best deal they can get having passed through or past numerous countries to get here.
  
  Alert moderator
- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:05:04pm
  
  The Agreement Kevin Rudd negotiated with PNG gives PNG control of the camps, including processing and resettlement of asylum seekers and some of the security.
  
  It was Kevin Rudd who got the PNG Police involved.
  
  Alert moderator
David:

21 Feb 2014 2:33:28pm

Don't expect any response to inquiries about improvements to Manus Island the head Mute i.e. Morrison has sent his wooden toy soldier to Manus, I hope he flew there, the Navy wouldn't be able to find it. It took them six attempts before they found Indonesia. Now the General of Operation Sovereign Borders is involved the Cone of Silence will be deployed. A transparent and truly independent investigation don't think so.

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- Malachi Martin:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:31:10pm
  
  They will have what they deserve to have.
  
  Alert moderator
GJA:

21 Feb 2014 2:35:05pm

Thank you. It must be disheartening to see such abuses, especially when perpetrated by an otherwise free society, but it is nevertheless valuable to many of us. Perhaps not those selfish and cowardly among us who deny the legitimacy of claims for asylum and who initiated and now gleefully pursue the race to the bottom in how Australia handles those who throw themselves upon the nation's mercy, or lack thereof. But for those of us who prefer the truth and who require more from our representatives in government, it's important to know what is being done in our names and hidden in euphemism and obfuscation.

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Sandra S.:

21 Feb 2014 2:35:16pm

There are only two kinds of people who could write or agree with an article like this one.

One group inclludes vested interests who financially benefit from the people smuggling trade and arrival of asylum seekers and the other group includes people like Graeme McGregor, with misguided sense of righteousness, insisting in taking some jigher moral grounds, yet refusing to consider the ultimate consequances of thei misguided righteousness and compassion.

Graeme, the 'kindness' of our misguided Labor politicians, got us people in detention. It got us 1,100 of men women and children drowning on the open sea. It is misguided 'compassion' that got us children in detention.

Fortunately Labor MPs realised the effect of their 'compassion' and have consequently introduced the policies aimed in stopping the boats. Because only when we stop the inflow of boats we will not nee overseas detention centres like Manus Island and we will not have people drowning on the open sea. It is really as simplem as that. It is so puzzling that some people like you Graeme refuse to see the obvious.

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- ThatFlemingGent:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:22:49pm
  
  "There are only two kinds of people who could write or agree with an article like this one."
  
  Spoken like a true apologist grub - blame the previous government, the fleeing asylum seekers, sneer at Amnesty for actually following their mission statements.
  
  Who are you to talk of a high moral ground? You're nothing but a know-nothing bogan pig.
  
  Perhaps we should lock you and your ilk on Manus in those conditions and see how you like it.
  
  Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:44:08pm
  
  What's wrong with simply fast-tracking their assessments? Why the need to keep them locked up for seven months with no indication of when that will end?
  
  We just spent 4 bil on some planes to watch the border, we can't spend one red cent to improve the rate of claims being processed?
  
  Not one claim processed Sandra, not a single solitary one.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Trent Toogood:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:58:38pm
    
    Yes, the main problem, as I understand it, was that asylum seekers weren't being told anything.
    
    How hard can it be to keep them informed of what is going on?
    
    Alert moderator
    - FalKirk:
      
      21 Feb 2014 8:09:29pm
      
      Why
      
      So they can send info back to the people smugglers?
      
      Wake up.
      
      Alert moderator
- ANdie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:11:45pm
  
  Yes Kevin Rudds new policy was that he wanted to create a "hell hole on earth" on Manus Island.
  
  Funny to see the ALP MPs wanting to calim the policy has stopped the boats but are back pedalling as fast from they can from predicted trouble in Rudds hell hole happened.
  
  Hypocrites
  
  Alert moderator
A happy little debunker:

21 Feb 2014 2:38:10pm

Aside from mindless chattering class speculation as to the nature of this death (& injuries) and the assignment of moral or legal blame.

Over the last 6 years, approximately 3.84 deaths per week were incurred by people attempting to enter Australia in leaky boats.

As a moral, ethical and humane society - we must ensure these multiple weekly deaths STOP!

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- lazarus:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:23:19pm
  
  You could process all the refugees currently in camps in South East Asia for less than the cost of Operation Shonky Borders. There would be no need for boats, people could be flown in safely.
  
  This government rabbits on about unaffordable policies but the more than $10bil cost of Shonky Borders is not unaffordable it seems but basic health care & welfare is and needs to be cut.
  
  Alert moderator
- Iswide:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:25:51pm
  
  A happy little debunker: "As a moral, ethical and humane society - we must ensure these multiple weekly deaths STOP!"
  
  Unless we decide to illegally invade another country and do some killing ourselves, perhaps?
  
  Alert moderator
- James Picone:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:43:45pm
  
  So would you support Australia constructing a processing centre in Indonesia, processing asylum seekers there, and bringing them to Australia if and when they're found to be refugees? People coming here by boat from Indonesia could be taken to that centre.
  
  It wouldn't need to be a prison, like the Manus Island camp. Nobody needs to board a boat. Nobody needs to die on the water. We crush the people smuggler's business model. It's almost certainly cheaper than what we're doing right now. It accords with the relevant UN conventions and doesn't make us look like gigantic hypocrites when our politicians criticise other countries' human rights record. I'm not sure what Indonesia would think of it, but they certainly don't want the asylum seekers so we're probably alright on that front.
  
  I wonder why you're not pushing for that solution. I wonder why setting up concentration camps is a perfect deterrent and yet 3.8 deaths/week isn't. I wonder why people think these are economic migrants when they're willing to risk 3.8 deaths/week and come from countries we criticise on human rights grounds, or countries that are active war zones.
  
  Alert moderator
  - A happy little debunker:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:50:55pm
    
    There already is a UNHCR processing centre in Indonesia.
    People coming here by boat bypass this centre.
    
    It hasn't provided a solution to this situation.
    
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Jimmy Necktie:

21 Feb 2014 2:38:46pm

I don't see how anyone, from any side, can say this situation is satisfactory. It's like a Far Side cartoon.

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Why:

21 Feb 2014 2:40:34pm

Although locked up, I still fail to see why this is much different to jails in Australia, where criminals are able to behave well, for the most part, or even average schools, workplaces, our military, etc, where we are forced together. Can someone describe the living day to day circumstances in a detention centre wherby it causes so much angst? Surely food, water, sleeping quarters, living quarters, snacks & drinks, exercise activities, medical attention, socializing, making friends, passing the day, can't be horror camps in a gulag somewhere can it?

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- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:41:11pm
  
  The angst probably starts when they see thugs with guns and knives breaking down the fence with the intention of shooting them and cutting their throats.
  
  I know I would be very angst!
  
  Alert moderator
- James Picone:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:49:28pm
  
  Jails have the resources to provide appropriate medical attention to inmates, even if they have chronic conditions like diabetes or epilepsy.
  
  Jails have certain limits on density of inmates, because packing too many people in too close is likely to be unsanitary and generally unpleasant.
  
  Jails have sufficient supply of soap and drinking water.
  
  Jails don't require inmates to queue for hours, outdoors, in a tropical climate where there isn't enough drinking water, for food.
  
  Inmates in jails know how long they're in there for.
  
  Inmates in jails aren't barred from contact with the outside world.
  
  Inmates in jails are included in evacuation procedures.
  
  The fact that asylum seekers don't return under those conditions is yet another indication that they're not 'economic migrants', despite this pernicious bit of conservative mythology. Yes, they could always go back. I wonder why, in the face of inhumane treatment, they don't? Maybe they expect worse if they return?
  
  Alert moderator
  - Andie:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:24:38pm
    
    It was Kevin Rudd who signed the agreement when there were no useable facilities at Manus after they deteriorated with the Rudd closure in 2008.
    
    It was Rudd who signed the Agreement and began to send people to Manus with little or no facilities.
    
    It was Rudd who erected the tents etc for the asylum seekers to live in.
    
    It was Rudd that opened the camp without support services in place.
    
    It is Abbott and Morrison who are trying to clean up the mess Rudd left.
    
    Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:53:17pm
  
  We don't make prisoners sleep in tents, don't hold back food and water and ensure they have basic sanitation. TV, internet access, none of which is provided to these camps.
  
  What's hard to understand about that? We treat our prisoners like kings compared to these people.
  
  Alert moderator
- struck dumb:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:01:47pm
  
  According to Amnesty, and backed up by the Salvos, they do not have adequate food or water, let alone snacks or drinks; they do not have adequate washing facilities or the means of keeping themselves clean and hygienic; their living quarters are very minimal and boredom is a serious problem. Plus Manus Island does not have a friendly climate, being close to the equator, and AFAIK, they do not have air-conditioning. Medical attention is minimal, over-stretched, and time is spent dealing with the usual side-effects of living in squalor.
  I do not understand why they are not told they will never be settled in Australia when they first arrive at Manus Island and see whats in store for them, and then given the option to go home immediately, or wait in hell to be settled in PNG. The rioting was because they all finally discovered at te same time they would not be settled in Australia, and the age of entitlement for refugees is over. Some had been there for 7 months already not knowing anything. That was gratuitous cruelty from any point of view.
  Physical and mental abuse will not solve the problem, it just puts us on a par with Mugabe and Kim Jong Un.
  
  Alert moderator
- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:53:15pm
  
  "Although locked up, I still fail to see why this is much different to jails in Australia"
  
  The difference is asylum seekers have not committed any crime and therefore should not be locked up. Simple really.
  
  Alert moderator
Blueboy:

21 Feb 2014 2:41:22pm

Cut the nonsense these people are NOT asylum seekers. Defend them by all means that is your democratic right but don't use the genuine asylum seeker argument. That is a fabrication. They are economic refugees seeking a better life with the added security of welfare safety nets who happen to have $10,000 in their pockets to pay people smugglers. Think about it if they were genuine "asylum seekers" why would they not fly to Australia then seek asylum once on the ground here. A lot cheaper and safer. Of course that would mean that they would then have papers to be able to confirm if their claim is genuine or not.
Oh that's right they "escaped" with enough time to put $10,000 or more in their pockets but no time to get their identity papers. Please!
Before you all write how 90% have been found to be "genuine" asylum seekers let me answer that. Without papers it is impossible for our authorities to verify their claims so they have no option but to grant them refugee status. This loophole is well understood by them that's why surprise, surprise, 100% arrive without any papers. Duh!
Please you guys stop treating Australians as dummies. You are flogging a dead horse. Australians know exactly who and what these people are. We welcome migrants and genuine asylum seekers with open arms (remember the Kosovo refugees) but we have no time for people stealing the places of genuine refugees. I actually feel sorry for these people and can understand their desire for a better life but given that Australia cannot accommodate everyone in the world we should give preference to genuine asylum seekers first.
The Liberals are well on the way of "stopping the boats" and have the support and gratitude of 75% of thinking Australians. The other 25% represent the Labor and Greens glued on supporters who only are annoyed that they have been made to look foolish when they claimed Abbott's policies would not work.
On this one issue alone Abbott has denied any chance of Labor winning the next election. Labor now cannot go to the next election without a policy of scrapping Abbott''s "turning back boats when safe to do so" policy. After all they publicly still state they don't support this policy. Surely, they can't believe Australians will flock to Labor all wanting to go back to where we were with Labor on border protection. Yeah right! Good luck with that one.

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- Persian:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:23:46pm
  
  I agree with you %100. i have worked hard for many years and I don't have $10000 at all. I immigrate to Australia with near $600. I love Australian they said welcome to us with open arm and some of our Australian friend say we proud such a people came to Australia . Don't waste Australian tax payer.
  
  Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:59:50pm
  
  They don't "steal" the place of an exising refugee.
  
  And you can't claim they are not genuine if they haven't been processed. Not one claim has been processed.
  
  This is not about boats, stopping them or finding a better way. It's about basic decency. We don't allow dogs to live in the conditions we put them in.
  
  Alert moderator
Kevin:

21 Feb 2014 2:42:14pm

We should call things what they are. Manus Island is a concentration camp, and in this camp people have been killed as a result of Australian government policies. As far as I can see, this is the first time in our history that we have done this.

I don't want the usual cheerleaders seeing this as either a Liberal or Labor rant. Both parties have developed this policy, mainly by blindly following dark alleys and not seeing where they lead.

There will come a time when the whole world will call us out on this and the policy will come back to bite us.

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- ThatFlemingGent:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:32:41pm
  
  Wholeheartedly agree - this is a national disgrace and I wonder about the moral compass of people applauding scum like Morrison and making apologies for the inhuman treatment of *legal* refugees seeking asylum, or pointing partisan fingers.
  
  Both sides of politics have scraped the bottom of the barrel to appease and appeal to the ignorant and racist (live with it, it's true) but this latest abuse and the intelligence-insulting hubris and dishonesty from an allegedly "adult" government is the last straw. It has to stop now - a proper, regional solution needs to be sought and these clearly sub-par camps permanently closed.
  
  Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:33:01pm
  
  True, both parties have developed this policy, but the adults are in charge now and if they are going to lock people up, they are obliged to keep them safe.
  
  They couldnt care less about asylum seeker's welfare, all they are worried about is their fanatical obsession with stopping the boats.
  
  To hell with 'em after we lock 'em up.
  
  Alert moderator
Kevin:

21 Feb 2014 2:42:27pm

We should call things what they are. Manus Island is a concentration camp, and in this camp people have been killed as a result of Australian government policies. As far as I can see, this is the first time in our history that we have done this.

I don't want the usual cheerleaders seeing this as either a Liberal or Labor rant. Both parties have developed this policy, mainly by blindly following dark alleys and not seeing where they lead.

There will come a time when the whole world will call us out on this and the policy will come back to bite us.

Alert moderator
- Joe:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:11:12pm
  
  Wow Kevin. What an absolutely moronic post. Is your last name Rudd?
  I suggest you do some research into what a real Concentration Camp is.
  
  The first time in our history people have died because of government policy? Are you one year old?
  4 deaths in the pink batt debacle. 2,000+ dead due to ALP/Green border policies.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Kevin:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:58:30pm
    
    No Joe, I am not moronic, and your abuse does not change my mind. The Heritage Dictionary defines concentration camp as "A camp where civilians are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions."
    
    I will say again, this is the first time in Australia's history where civilians have died in concentration camps established by Australia. The only other possible example could be the Boer war, but that was before Federation.
    
    The Labor Party is complicit in this, and the Liberal Party is making it an art form. It will, though, come back to bite us.
    
    Alert moderator
Peter the Lawyer:

21 Feb 2014 2:43:41pm

The problem is that some people just presume that every boat person is a refugee.

If you take off the blinkers and look at all the evidence you will find that this not the case. Most are econmic migrants.

There should be a simple rule, if you have no papers the assumption must be you are not a refugee, particulalrly if you used a passport to get to Indonesia.

Alert moderator
- John51:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:42:48pm
  
  And you call yourself a lawyer. Since when did it become the law in this country to imprison people without a trial and no end sentence. That is without taking into account that it is not illegal to seek asylum.
  
  Oh, and when did duty of care get discarded as an obligation in this country. Government should be upholding the law not treating it with contempt. There are so many failures in this case and others like it that to me it seems this government thinks it is beyond the law. Or is it that they make it up as they go to suit themselves. That is what it looks like.
  
  If they are found to not be asylum seekers than they should be sent home. If they cannot be sent home because it is not safe for them than that would suggest they are right in seeking asylum. But to lock them up without due care as to their health and wellbeing and throw away the keys. Well anyone with a shred of decency would or should question that.
  
  Are we a dictatorship? I foolishly thought we were a democracy. Operational matters, need to know, that is a government trying to hide things from its people.
  
  Alert moderator
  - reaver:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:47:57pm
    
    It's been lawful to detain unlawful non-citizens since the passage of the Migration Amendment Act 1993, John51. That Act made it unlawful (a non-criminal breach of the law) for a foreign national to be in Australian territory, to enter Australian territory or to attempt to enter Australian territory unless they have a valid visa.
    
    A duty of care is a limited legal concept. In order to claim that one has been breached then you'd have to prove that one is imposed by law. If the law (common or legislative) does not state that a duty of care exists or states that a duty of care does not exist then there is no duty of care to breach.
    
    As I've previously pointed out to you someone can be in danger in their own country and still not be owed asylum. Unless they meet the definition of refugee under Article 1(2) of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees then they're not a refugee and under International law we don't owe them asylum.
    
    Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:03:48pm
  
  How do you know they aren't genuine without processing the claims Peter?
  
  The actual problem is that we have people, not dogs, people, languishing in camps and not knowing one way or the other.
  
  Fast track the processing, send them back if they aren't genuine, resettle them if they are. What's the hold up?
  
  Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:35:23pm
  
  "Most are economic migrants"
  
  And your credible evidence to back up this statement is........
  
  Alert moderator
- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:58:29pm
  
  "If you take off the blinkers and look at all the evidence you will find that this not the case. Most are econmic migrants."
  
  Clearly, Peter the non-Lawyer, you must have access to this evidence so please feel free to post it as proof of your statement.
  
  Alert moderator
Mike (the other one):

21 Feb 2014 2:44:16pm

The long term reality of this whole asylum seeker issue is that Amnesty, SH-Y, the Greens, Ian Rintoul or any one else that thinks like the above are not doing anything to fix the problems from which these people come. All they are doing is encouraging people to move around the planet while the problems back home carry on unabated.

This is one thing Abbott's got right. We (the Australian people) didn't start any riot on Manus Island or anywhere else. The asylum seekers did encouraged by the advocates.

Alert moderator
John Coochey :

21 Feb 2014 2:44:35pm

And what about the up to two thousand "innocent men and women" who drowned trying to come to Australia under the Kevin Rudd policies, what about them?

Alert moderator
Kurisu Shimei:

21 Feb 2014 2:44:54pm

This is quite sad, but, tragedies happen, accidents happen.

Alert moderator
- Benny:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:10:41pm
  
  Then why do we now have one-punch laws? Why didn't we just shrug and say "accidents happen"? Could it be because it's actually someone's fault and isn't an accident at all?
  
  Alert moderator
- PP:
  
  21 Feb 2014 8:00:57pm
  
  Killing someone isn't an "accident".
  
  Alert moderator
Damien Hodge:

21 Feb 2014 2:46:32pm

Its time Australians woke up and started to behave in a humanitarian way, most Australian citizens are boat arrivals whether your a 5 pound pom, Italian immigrant from the after effects of WW2 or a Vietnamese refugee. We are not full, if everyone went back to where they came from then Indigenous Australia would rejoice. Time to grow up Australia.

Alert moderator
- John Coochey :
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:43:45pm
  
  Well given that humanity did not originate in Australia that wold include the indigenous as well but the issue is that almost all migrants arrive with full documentation so we knew who they were and they arrived lawfully. Those who arrive without documentation including the appropriate visas are in breach of the Migration Act. They can of course ask for asylum, that is not illegal, they could also ask for the Crown Jewels or the deeds to my house but they have little chance of either.
  
  Alert moderator
- OverIt:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:48:35pm
  
  Damien, it's not the mode of transport that's the issue here. It's the fact of arriving without the requisite paperwork that allows you entry to Australia. The ten pound poms all had to apply to come here and get a visa before hand, as did Italian immigrants. As does everybody in the world who wants to come here now.
  
  Try to think what would happen to Australia if we decided to remove the requirement for a visa for anybody wanting to come by boat.
  
  Alert moderator
- Horrocks:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:55:04pm
  
  Damien
  
  have a look at the news, most parts of the country away from the costal belt are in the grip of a drought, the country became full when we hit about million, yes we may be a big land mass but actual arable land is at a premium
  
  FTR the record the whole planet should have put the house full sign up when we hit about 4 Billion, we just need scientists to stop interfering with nature and next time Mother Nature comes up with a gold old fashioned pandemic we should just let it happen, while the Earth balances things out again
  
  Alert moderator
The Other John:

21 Feb 2014 2:50:42pm

Graeme
Talk about "Irony". If the man was fleeing persecution, why is his government in actual fact concerned about his welfare? The only possible conclusion is that he wasn't escaping persecution, rather pursuing a better economic situation.

Where was your concern for the last moments of life for over a thousand people including children who were drowning over the past 6 years, Graeme? Weren't their deaths to be considered a "violent climax" to Rudd/Gillards failures? Or did you simply not want to upset the ALP/Greens government of the day? Would it have helped you to feel remorse at the time if their deaths had been recorded on video?

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JohnM:

21 Feb 2014 2:52:26pm

At this stage it's impossible to say that he was "an innocent man" as this article claims. It's hard to see anyone other than the detainees instigating this riot. If he was one of those who started it then I reckon he contributed to his own death.

By the way, where was your outrage when more than 1000 illegal immigrants droned under Labor's policy? Don't tell me that yet again it's one standard for a Labor government and a much higher standard for a Coalition government?

And wasn't it Labor that decided on using Manus Island anyway?

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Marko:

21 Feb 2014 2:52:36pm

Please spare us the sanctimonious drivel.

These ?asylum seekers? spent thousands of dollars to get to Indonesia by plane and then spent thousands more booking passage on a boat too Australia where en route they ?accidentally? lost their identification papers. Then they have the gall to complain because the authorities can?t identify them in a timely manner. Pleeeease?

You also did not mention the reports from the PNG authority that these detainees were allegedly goading the local police and local prison guards with threats of raping their wives and daughters once they were released. You also didn?t mention allegations from the same authority that they had made weapons from chair legs, bed legs & cutlery.

No in your book it is all a one way street with Australians as the enemy.

Alert moderator
sns:

21 Feb 2014 2:54:42pm

"An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven. Instead, he was killed under the Australian Government's watch."

An innocent man, as in a man who has, as far as we know, broken no law. Indeed, had he broken an Australian law then surely he would have appeared before a judicial officer and had due legal process?

I guess that is why members of the current government are constantly using the term "illegals", despite them being reminded, often, that asylum seekers break no Australian law when they seek asylum in our country.

Maybe, the LNP will start to use the term "outlaws", thus denying these people any legal protection at all.

Dehumanising people is surely another way of denying them any rights they may have under law.

Alert moderator
- John Coochey :
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:47:28pm
  
  A point of information
  " Section 228B of the Migration Act 1958 (Entitled "Circumstances in which a non-citizen has no lawful right to come to Australia") specifically states in subsection (2) that "a non-citizen seeking protection or asylum" has no lawful right to come to Australia if they are not in possession of a valid visa.
  
  228B Circumstances in which a non citizen has no lawful right to come to Australia
  (1) For the purposes of this Subdivision, a non citizen has, at a particular time, no lawful right to come to Australia if, at that time:
  (a) the non citizen does not hold a visa that is in effect; and
  (b) the non citizen is not covered by an exception referred to in subsection 42(2) or (2A); and
  (c) the non citizen is not permitted by regulations under subsection 42(3) to travel to Australia without a visa that is in effect.
  (2) To avoid doubt, a reference in subsection (1) to a non citizen includes a reference to a non citizen seeking protection or asylum (however described), whether or not Australia has, or may have, protection obligations in respect of the non citizen:"
  
  Alert moderator
  - sns:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:37:15pm
    
    The Australian Human Rights Commission provides this point of information:
    
    Asylum seekers who arrive in Australia by boat without a valid visa
    
    Since August 2012 there have been a number of changes in law and policy in relation to what happens to people who come to Australia seeking asylum without a valid visa. What policies apply to thse asylum seekers now depends on their mode of arrival, and on what date they arrived.
    
    In August 2012, the Australian Government introduced a system of third country processing for asylum seekers who arrive in Australia at an ?excised offshore place? (such as Christmas Island) by boat. In May 2013 this system was extended to apply to asylum seekers who arrive by boat anywhere in Australia. Under this system, asylum seekers who have arrived by boat must be transferred to a third country as soon as is reasonably practicable unless the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection exercises his discretion to exempt them from transfer.
    
    If asylum seekers who arrive unauthorised by boat are allowed by the Minister to remain in Australia, their claims will be processed under Australian law.
    
    If asylum seekers are transferred to a third country, their claims for protection will be processed under that country?s laws.
    
    On 19 July 2013 and 3 August 2013 the Australian Government established resettlement arrangements with the Governments of PNG and Nauru respectively. The effect of these arrangements is that asylum seekers who are transferred from Australia to those countries will not only remain there while their claims are processed, but if found to be refugees, will be resettled in those countries, rather than in Australia.
    
    Alert moderator
gbe:

21 Feb 2014 2:56:33pm

Graeme we go around and around on this but nothing changes because the basics remain the same.

There is a right way and a wrong way to enter Australia the person who died joins a long list of deaths from people trying to enter the wrong way.

People seeking asylum are no different there is right and wrong way to go about it. If those who have lost their lives had not chosen to by pass so many other countries and pay for a stay in Indonesia before paying to get on a leaky boat there would be more sympathy for the position they find themselves.

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jack:

21 Feb 2014 2:56:34pm

"In light of our findings, the chaos and violence at the Manus Island detention centre was shocking, but not surprising. Australia's facility on Manus Island is riddled with problems and it's hard not to feel this was the inevitable outcome of this absurd policy."

No Graeme, its the outcome of people trying enter our country illegally, its their problem, we house them and feed them.

In fact, if they are violent why would we let them in?

Amnesty international, bleeding taxpayers, one illegal at a time..no thanks, the boats have stopped.

They made their bed, let them ly in it.

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big joe :

21 Feb 2014 2:58:18pm

One of the main reasons for the Manus Island unrest is Labors choice of who they gave the security contract to. G4S is a British company who fell into disrepute during the London olympics when they failed to honour their contract to provide games security. Despite this the Rudd government gave them the contract to provide security services on Manus and not surprisingly to those of us who have had dealings with them they failed. Considering the difficult environment that exists on Manus professional security people are needed, one of the failing of G4S was that they were hiring people with no experience apart from attending a 5 day security guards course. After what has just happened the government may get serious and start recruiting the right people for the job but unfortunately to do it properly will cost more and as it is cheaper to contract private companies the temptation to save money will be the overriding factor.

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Mark O:

21 Feb 2014 2:58:27pm

"An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven. Instead, he was killed under the Australian Government's watch."

After having passed through how many other safe havens?

He could have sought to legally emigrate from any other point on the way, but instead chose to pay for an illegal, back door entry. At what point do these "refugees" have to take some personal responsibility. Why get rid of their documentation, and so on.

This death, however tragic, is not even close to the 1,000's who died at sea. The fact that this is now stopped says that the strategy has worked and the criminals no longer ply their people trafficking trade. The article seems to lack a sense of proportion.

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peter:

21 Feb 2014 2:59:02pm

"why we're asking Australians to sign our new Action, calling on Minister Morrison to respond in full to our report and tell the public what is happening on Manus Island. Australians, and people around the world, have a right to know."

You are out of touch pal, the people want the boats to stop, they have now for nine weeks.

Who the hell are you to suggest that you speak for the people, or you know what the people want.

Are you even Australian?

Alert moderator
- Jimmy Necktie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:37:28pm
  
  "Are you even Australian?"
  
  well they call themselves "Amnesty International Australia", but they're probably trying to trick you. Just you.
  
  Alert moderator
- JCricket:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:55:09pm
  
  peter;
  
  "....You are out of touch pal, the people want the boats to stop, they have now for nine weeks."
  
  You must know someone in Cabinet or in the Navy with loose Lips, pal.
  
  FTR, I am Australian, and your views certainly do not reflect mine. My view is that the Liberals got Power because the Public wanted Labor out, not because they wanted to "Stop (reporting on) The Boats" . Pal.
  
  Alert moderator
- muzz:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:00:23pm
  
  He speaks for me
  and many others
  
  Alert moderator
- mortan:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:29:06pm
  
  Yeah you have come to the right place Peter plenty of leftists here that will say and do anything you want as long as it hurts the Australian government.
  
  But you knew that before you posted I would say.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Jimmy Necktie:
    
    21 Feb 2014 8:00:48pm
    
    be fair, the rightists had a hell of turn.
    
    Alert moderator
muzz:

21 Feb 2014 3:00:17pm

Fair commentry Graeme

Australias shame in this business will grow and grow as the pressure increases on these "imprisoned "people.

The "hard right" may claim that all refugee should expect harsh conditions if they are genuine asylum seekers.
I say that we as a rich nation, who have been at war in many of these hot spots, have a moral responsability to at least process their claims in Australia and not pass the buck to a developeing nation.

The shock jocks, xenophobics, power grabbers and selfish scared people have all helped this happen.

Not in my backyard is the cry.
Our neighbours are receiving "blood money" to do our dirty work.

Australias position in this is selfish, inhumane and unethical.
Shame on all of us.

Alert moderator
John51:

21 Feb 2014 3:01:24pm

Human Rights and Australia. Sorry those two words don't exist in the same room anymore. Labor was bad enough, but this lot treats the meaning of the word with contempt.

Manus island was always a bad idea. One can only hope that it may have been better managed under labor. But this government has not even made an attempt to properly managed it. The only thing they have tried to manage is to hide what is going on in Australia's name, in our name.

As it is PNG has enough difficulty dealing with their own crime and social issues. Yet here we are, Australia, dumping our problems on them. And we are there on the UN and the G20, supposedly one of the top nations internationally and we do this. It seems we have no self respect. Certainly this government doesn't.

We imprison people for years without trial, or conviction on an open-ended sentence. And why for daring to seek asylum with Australia. Wow what a crime to get you years of imprisonment with no knowledge of when your imprisonment will end. I thought that only happened in dictatorships, but it seems not.

We have signed the refugee treaty. If they are genuine refugees, than give than asylum if that is what they want. If they are not than you must be able to send them safely back to their own country.

If you can't send them safely back to their own country than that would suggest they have a right to seek asylum. One or the other rather than this imprisoning people for months and years on end without a trial.

Otherwise you have to ask what sort of country have we become. Is this a return of the mentality of the White Australia where we locked up people because of their race and would not give them citizenship because of their race. It is starting to look like that. And I would suggest it probably looks like that to many other countries, particularly in Asia, who know of our history.

We are not a dictatorship are we. Aren't we supposed to have an open government, open to scrutiny of what is done in our name. How did we get to this state of government saying we the people do not have the right top know what is being done in our name. Where we do not have the right to question injustices done in our name.

I would suggest we should all be very careful about the way our democracy is treated. It is far far more important than any government. And we should all remember that. Those who represent us should remember that. Yet they seem to keep forgetting that in their desire to obtain and retain power. Look at what happens overseas when governments believe it is their right to rule.

Alert moderator
- reaver:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:05:14pm
  
  Their safety or otherwise in their own country doesn't obligate Australia to give them asylum, John51. You're a refugee if you're fleeing persecution due to your race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a social group. If you're travelling for any other reason then you're not a refugee and Australia owes you nothing. Someone can be unsafe in their own country, their country in a war, for example, and they still wouldn't be owed asylum.
  
  Alert moderator
peter:

21 Feb 2014 3:05:22pm

"The PNG government is yet to commit to taking any practical steps to resettling recognised refugees, so these men could remain in detention for years while they try to organise their own resettlement elsewhere, with no assistance from Australia or PNG."

Thats their problem, it not our government or the government of PNG problem, they made a choice now they live with the outcomes.

What, do you expect governments to go running around at the drop of a hat to serve illegal entrants...sorry, 1st preference to citizens.

Propaganda, something Amnesty is good for, not much else.

Alert moderator
- mortan:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:31:12pm
  
  Well Peter they can always opt for a free ride home at our expense how good is that there own people would make them swim.
  
  Alert moderator
sidlaw:

21 Feb 2014 3:09:34pm

'What these people seem to be missing is the irony in their protest. Both sides of politics have previously claimed that asylum seekers coming from Iran do so on economic grounds'.

Bob Carr opined that the vast majority of them were economic migrants. I think the pollies argument is that if people can afford to travel from their country of origin to Indonesia and pay the people smugglers for passage then by definition they must be economic migrants, even though I'm not aware of any definition that defines how much assets / money they must have and how this could be validated. Having then been classified as economic migrants the assumption is that they can't also have been persecuted because the two are mutually exclusive. This argument may have some validity but there will always be many exceptions.

'we discovered that asylum seekers were being held in extremely unsanitary, over-crowded dormitories'

Were the conditions unsanitary to start with or have the asylum seekers created these conditions? Over crowding is a relative term. I wonder how the conditions compared to where they came from? Of course the pollies may argue that if the asylum seekers have come from better conditions then they are econimic migrants and welcome to go back to where they came from.

I think the government is treading a fine line and sometimes guilty of overstepping the mark but they are determined to prevail and deliver on their election promise. They will continue to push the boundaries until the boats stops, despite the protests.

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- John51:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:03:45pm
  
  Bob Carr was wrong as are this lot. If they think that is the case they do not have a clue as to what they are talking about. If you understand anything about how persecution is enforce by those in power you would understand that economic persecution is the first form of persecution. It is a well tried practice.
  
  The easiest way for those in power to persecute individuals or groups within a society, a country, is to restrict their capacity to earn a living for themselves and their families. The first thing they do is to restrict their capacity to gain a job within government, or to conduct business with government.
  
  And than when it comes to the private sector. If they want to do business with government or be in the governments favor they do not employ certain people or people from certain groups. Just think what it would be like for you or your family if you were to be put in this position. It would keep you in line wouldn't it.
  
  Economic persecution is a good mechanism of controlling the population and dividing the population from winners and losers. It is how these dictatorships control the population so well.
  
  Than of course they have other forms of persecution, from restricting access to education, to of course the well know brutality and threat of life. And it is not just you as an individual who can be affected. Such threats are used against your family and extended family. All as means of controlling the population and retaining power.
  
  Alert moderator
Mick Mack:

21 Feb 2014 3:11:52pm

I am no Refugee lover but this is CRAP
How about we swap these poor buggers for the Long Term inmates in our jail system - That would be some deterrent for the up and coming no-hopers of our communities
But I suppose that would be too much for Aussies to bear
I suppose it depends on what ID they came with (if any)
Sad

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Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia:

21 Feb 2014 3:17:57pm

Graeme fails totally to understand that Australia is a paradise on planet Earth and the World outside Australia is getting more nasty each day.

Picture ourselves on a lifeboat when Titanic is sinking. As the person in charge of the lifeboat do you decide to take in more drowning people and risk killing all on board or focus on the safety of the lifeboat??

Each TWO Months the increase in global population is 24,000,000 which is slightly more than the Total population of Australia. Global warming represents another major risk leading to massive crop failures. It will combine with rapid increase in global population to create widespread famines affecting 2,000,000,000 or more people in Asia before 2050. The Arab Spring was triggered by wheat crop failures in Russia.

Four years ago I was the project engineer to grow food in a big arid area in Inner Mongolia, China where Genghis Khan grew up. We failed. It is now hard to increase food production to match population increases.

Australia must destroy NOW the popular belief in Asia created by the Greens and ALP that Australia welcomes boatpeople. If not ( a stictch in time saves nine principle) Australia will be conquered by a tsunami of millions of boatpeople when Asia descends into total chaos due to widespread famine.

To understand what will happen readers can watch the recent historical movie, "Back to 1942" which documents what happened when 3,000,000 out of 30m died in a famine in Henan province in China. The saddest scene was Govt troops stopping a train at the Shaanxi-Henan and killing many of the food refugees in order to drive them away from Shaanxi Province which by then had already millions of refugees and it could not take in more.

PM Abbott and Team are doing a great job to stop the boatpeople and must persevere for all our sake.

Alert moderator
- Jack Mite:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:56:24pm
  
  Thank you so much for that Dr Goh. At last someone who speaks from experience, and with a clear understanding.
  
  Alert moderator
gerard oosterman:

21 Feb 2014 3:18:49pm

Well, I don't know how anyone from Australia can still call Australia 'home' and hold their head high while overseas.

The UN, UNHCR, Amnesty and others, even perhaps the IMF under Madame Lagarde will call Australia to order. Even China is appalled by our government's behaviour regarding the prisoners on Manus Island who have done nothing wrong.

However, what will really bring our Government finally to order is a whiff of The Hague's International Court of Justice becoming involved.

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- reaver:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:53:52pm
  
  The International Court of Justice, gerard? What in the current situation would give them binding jurisdiction over the matter? The Court has no jurisdiction to deal with applications from individuals, non-governmental organizations, corporations or any other private entity. The Court can only hear a dispute when requested to do so by UN member States, in the matter of refugees by Convention signatories with standing under Article 38 of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. It cannot deal with a dispute of its own motion. It can't investigate and rule on acts of sovereign States as it chooses.
  
  Alert moderator
- Mike North:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:55:16pm
  
  Your being bluffed by the ABC. I live over seas and its a non event.
  The ABC are grandstanding with their head lines and if you take the time to look into the story behind the attention grabber you will realize, as I have, that its build up. I want back my old Aunty, she has been taken over by a group of determiners and is fast becoming no better than the other Mob. I am thinking of starting my own petition.
  
  Alert moderator
  - Closet Romantic:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:51:36pm
    
    I agree I wonder if anybody really Gets it the wealthy countries are all trying to shut their borders just watch the Danish drama Borgen how much do Australians know about their repressive immigration policies or even just read The Girl with The Dragon Tattoo series.
    
    It's fairly obvious that the wealthy countries of Europe have pretty much the same policies it's just they are trying to stop land based refugees and we deal with sea based ones.
    
    The world doesn't care I think we got more news coverage from the actress from Modern Family being sexually harassed.
    
    It doesn't make anything right it doesn't matter what the world thinks about us it matters what we think about us.
    
    For me as long as we feed, clothe and shelter them to a reasonable degree we are being humane most people who have been there seem to say that the asylum seekers are getting better living conditions than the local residents and many of the poor in our own country.
    
    Conditions are never going to be perfect it's sad to see people suffering but these people had choices and resources
    
    I wonder if they could have got a green card?
    
    Alert moderator
- Hidi:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:57:50pm
  
  gerard: What have you put in your tea the Hague's international court for goodness sake.
  
  Alert moderator
- Ben:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:24:27pm
  
  ICJ has no jurisdiction.
  
  Alert moderator
billie:

21 Feb 2014 3:22:07pm

One day people will be prosecuted for participating in this shameful episode in our history.

We are currently conducting a Royal Commission into the systematic child sex abuse perpetrated by our largest religious institutions. We have paid reparations for children who were mistreated in the orphanages run by these same religious institutions and we have apologised to the Stolen Generation.

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- Jack Mite:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:58:32pm
  
  Do not try to pre-empt the finding of the Royal Commission. You will find the same disgusting things happened in our NON-religious institutions as well.
  
  Alert moderator
Roger:

21 Feb 2014 3:23:03pm

By Chris Bowen's own figures of 4% deaths at sea for Boat People, over 2000 dead on Labor's watch. So far, since September, 1 death (due to being involved in a violent riot). Meanwhile, Scott Morrison says there have been no boats for 64 days, the longest stretch since August in 2008, just a few months after the Rudd Government weakened our border laws. Time the left started saying SORRY.

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ian forrest:

21 Feb 2014 3:23:25pm

You say an innocent man came to Australia seeking a safe haven. You don't know that Iran is not a backwater it has courts and justice and free medical and hospitals with modern equipment its not the wilds of afghanistan . I guess the truth will come out, he was just as likely to be escaping from criminal acts or simply country shopping. Manus
is here to stay till the boats stop and people go home or become citizens of new guinea

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EvilPundit:

21 Feb 2014 3:25:02pm

All of this could have been avoided if the asylum seekers hadn't chosen to riot for two nights in a row. They broke out, and according to some reports, insulted and attacked the locals.

Such violent aggression shows that they are unsuitable as immigrants.

If they hadn't decided to exploit legal loopholes to take limited places away from more deserving refugees, they would not be in this situation.

The blame does not rest with a government that is doing the right thing.

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Roger:

21 Feb 2014 3:25:20pm

Still waiting for an article on The Drum that argues the government's boat people policy is a good one (as the majority of the Australian population think). Where is the balance on "our" ALPBC?

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John:

21 Feb 2014 3:30:54pm

Sorry I don't want to know. This open flood gate to tens of millions. Amnesty International does not run a country.. on second thoughts maybe they should be allowed to Govern and show us how to solve world problems.

Now the brick bats..

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Nick:

21 Feb 2014 3:31:30pm

Many "innocent people" including women and children have been killed in their efforts to gain entry into Australia.The silence from this author and the many other leftists when thousands were drowned at sea is disgusting to say the least.

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MT_Syd:

21 Feb 2014 3:35:09pm

It is inevitable that people will protest when you treat them like this, whether they are genuine refugees or not.

The immigration minister is smart enough to know this.

So we can conclude he intended this type of event to happen as a deterrent to other asylum seekers.

Morrison's stated motivation for this policy is that it is necessary to save the lives of boat people by persuading them not to make the attempt.

I do not think it is our responsibility to do any more than warn refugees of the dangers of getting onto leaky boats, if they choose to ignore that warning and risk their lives then that is their choice.

But lets not kid ourselves that Morrison is motivated by anything other than garnering the votes of the xenophobic elements of our society

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rusty cairns:

21 Feb 2014 3:35:22pm

i'm not really convinced that Scott Morrison's word can be trusted, he did say that countries sovereign boarders would be respected and would not be breached. He was dead wrong saying that.
He claims that no asylum seekers have made it to Australia for 70 odd days but we know that those involved with "operation sovereign boarders' have trouble with where boarders are located. Given that fact his claim may be wrong too.
One news report of an Australian owned life boat that arrived in Indonesia with asylum seekers on board stated that 2 asylum seekers were not put into that boat. If this is true what has happened to them, are they in custody of the Australian immigration department ? If so there has been arrivals.
Has the immigration department announced that the report of these 2 seemingly missing people, was false?
What can we believe after we were told that it was not the policy to tow boats back, yet now it seems likely we are towing boats that belong to the people of Australia carrying asylum seekers to the edge of Indonesian waters.
There is some serious questions being asked about or present asylum seeker policy which has deaths caused by violence, it's no co-incidence that questions are being asked about from people around the world about it.
Rightly so too.

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- Mike North:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:20:02pm
  
  Splitting hairs mate, One here Two there.
  Want some real meat, look at the 1000,s that were arriving Monthly this time last year. Look at the over 1000 killed at sea
  over the last 3-4 years.
  Look at the millions and millions of Dollars that the traffickers were making.
  Look at the Dozens of Indo Fishing boats entering our waters pilfering shark fin and shell.
  Who is asking the questions around the world.? Governments know that the Indos are assisting this trade.
  Indonesia know it and wish the ABC and so on would just move on and let the dice land.
  We are forcing politicians to be politicians and no one likes politicians.
  
  Alert moderator
  - rusty cairns:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:42:33pm
    
    Gday Mike,
    The past government wanted to stop people dying at sea, it was those in this present government that did absolutely nothing to help them, not one attempt was made to negotiate a fix to the problem and any help given to try and stop the deaths. I believe blood is on that oppositions hands too.
    
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Generation Bogan:

21 Feb 2014 3:35:49pm

Inquiry? Why? I am quite happy for human rights to be stretched or even bent providing that I am told as little about it as possible. That way, I can avoid any guilt and still demonise the boaties. Being Australian used to be about egalitarianism (you may need to look this up in the dictionary) and the so called "fair-go". Thankfully we have moved on from that rubbish and are now focused on apathy and self interest.

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Kevin52:

21 Feb 2014 3:36:37pm

Stop trying to blame the Australian government or the Australian people for things that happen to these illegal immigrants.
They were not invited to this country. They attempted to enter our country illegally.
The vast majority of these people are economic migrants.
They have the choice to go home or go for resettlement in NG.
They put themselves in this situation.

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Graeme:

21 Feb 2014 3:36:39pm

I think Mr. MacGregor is wasting his breath. I think that to the anti-asylum seeker camp which is currently in ascendancy in Australia, NO amount of inhumane treatment or suffering to too great for these "illegal boat people". Whatever befalls them, be it death or torture or anything else, is no better than they deserve for having the teremity to board the boats in the first place.

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Kali:

21 Feb 2014 3:38:02pm

Time for that bight bright spotlight that the Government has (a Royal Commission) to be shone on the whole issue. If you have nothing to hide,Minister, you have nothing to fear.

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GrumpyOldMan:

21 Feb 2014 3:39:07pm

Yes, unfortunately, recent events are not surprising. And it will not be surprising if they are repeated many times into the future while this horrendous treatment of asylum seekers continues.

The LNP is almost entirely responsible for this deplorable state of affairs, starting with Howard's indefensible decision to join GWB in his crusade against Osama bin Ladin following the tragedy of Sep 11 2001. They lied over WMD, they lied over 'children overboard' in order to win the 2001 election, they lied over the motives of refugees fleeing the wars they helped start, they lied over AWB's dealings with Saddam Hussein, they lied over their inhumane treatment of Dr Haneef, and they continue to lie over what is happening in the Timor Sea as they implement their inhumane slogan of 'stopping the boats' which just strands asylum seekers indefinitely in transit countries like Indonesia. Yet the LNP is full of people who claim they believe in Christian principles, as told in the story of the 'Good Samaritan', or the principle of 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Bah humbug! Hypocrites, one and all!

Their behaviour has been, and continues to be, absolutely reprehensible. And it has so poisoned the whole public debate about asylum seekers that the Labor Party didn't have the guts to implement policies based on real humanity and respect for people fleeing wars and persecution in their homelands to find somewhere safer to raise their families.

This is indeed a very, very black mark on Australia as a country, and all Australians, and I sincerely hope that Abbott and his gang of thugs get to pay dearly on Earth for their sins, just as will surely happen when they arrive in 'hell', if such a place exists.

And let's see if the Moderators have enough guts to publish this to provide a bit of 'balance' against the incessant hate that flows from the members of the 'Stop the Boats Fan Club'.

Alert moderator
- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:19:32pm
  
  So grumpy how many asylum seekers have you taken under your wing?.You just expect the Australian tax payer to assuage your guilt.
  
  Alert moderator
turtlelover:

21 Feb 2014 3:39:14pm

We are a gutless country run by gutless cruel people.

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- Fortunatus:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:42:16pm
  
  Turtlelover, you have summed up my earlier post perfectly.
  
  You only have to read the views of the right-wingers here to recognise the callous, dismissive indifference of prevalent attitudes to the plight of asylum seekers. The right-wingers - and I include lots of Labor people amongst them - seek only political wins on this. They couldn't give a tinker's curse about the people in detention or the people who drowned at sea. Their only interest is for the boats to stop and for asylum seekers, whether they come by air or sea, to no longer come to Australia. The words compassion or fairness or dignity are only in their vocabulary as terms to be mocked.
  
  They rabbit on about 'illegals', 'orderly queues', 'protecting our borders' and 'waging a war'. These are empty terms of convenience dreamt up by bureaucrats and political spin doctors to give reactionary people some sort of feel-good, hysterical justification for supporting policies of cruelty and racism against largely desperate human beings they just don't want in Australia.
  
  These human beings have become the sad, kickarse victims in a cowardly game of political football between the two main right-wing parties, the Liberal Party and the Labor Party. Any 'concern' expressed for them by these politicians is confected rubbish.
  
  Alert moderator
azalon:

21 Feb 2014 3:40:22pm

ask yourself which is better...

bad policy we 'can' afford

or

good policy we 'cannot' afford

even if we accept the (typically) conservative position that a progressive agenda will ruin the economy... what is more important to uphold - the economy of human dignity?

what is the economy for?

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Fortunatus:

21 Feb 2014 3:40:54pm

The violence, humiliation and squalor on Manus Island is not only inevitable but also deliberate Government policy. It amounts to institutionalized cruelty, and contravenes just about every standard of human decency you can think of.

By making things as bad as possible for the inmates, the Government wants to send the message to potential asylum seekers contemplating coming by boat that this is the fate that awaits them. It's a policy of psychopathic deterrence.

It's also - and possibly mostly - a deliberate form of whistle-blowing to the racists and simpletons in the Australian electorate in swinging seats that the Government is being hard-line tough on asylum seekers, as it promised.

The Labor Party has connived in this whole business, and indeed started it, committing desperate people to the lawlessness of a failed state. It now makes a few mildly dissenting noises of a bureaucratic kind ('independent inquiry'), and then just shuts up, terrified of losing any more redneck, racist votes from their core, blue-collar constituency.

The whole situation is a political race-to-the-bottom that shows how debased and morally desensitized the political class and large sections of the Australian community have become. It's all about political capitalization on both sides, not justice, fairness or human dignity - those things long ago went overboard.

Who knows where this moral turpitude will all end.

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Jay Somasundaram:

21 Feb 2014 3:40:56pm

Not simply unsuprising but inevitable. And the people who we need to hold accountable are both major parties and the EXPERT panel who recommended it.

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Brother Cavill:

21 Feb 2014 3:42:13pm

I agree with Graeme send them back to Iran where they will be treated better.
If this ungrateful lot behaved in an appropriate manner, nothing would have occurred.

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Chris L:

21 Feb 2014 3:47:52pm

You should be glad the secretary of the Department of Immigration and Border Protection is running the investigation. It means we'll get a happy result we can all feel good, clean and completely self satisfied about.

After all, if the investigation were done independently the information would likely be simultaneously depressing, shocking and humbling. We wouldn't want that.

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Terry:

21 Feb 2014 3:50:13pm

"An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven"

Wow - no need for an investigation. Not only does Mr McGregor know that the dead man was innocent but also he is aware of his motives in coming to Australia.

He doesn't even need to know the man's name!

With this sort of telepathic skill we have no need to have an Immigration Dept. Mr McGregor can simply turn his mind to the next boat of self selected immigrants and tell which are genuine refugees who have had the luck to pay people smugglers and the misfortune to have not felt secure in the many countries they have traversed in order to reach the promised land.

Obviously my psychic skills are not at this level. But I have an alternative theory. People who have spent a lot of money and time to gain access to a country which provides better economic prospects than the other countries they have visited are upset when informed that this will not happen.

They display this anger and things escalate.

Seems a reasonable explanation to me, and until more info is available covers the facts.

Luckily it should not happen much in the future as the bottom has dropped out of the Australian division of People Smugglers International.

Not much talk now of "Push" factors being more important than "Pull", but even less talk along the lines of "We were wrong for thinking that we could open the door and nobody would take advantage of our foolishness"

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martel24:

21 Feb 2014 3:50:48pm

Malaysia knows how to keep illegals under control. Such violence would never happened in Malaysia.

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Dennis Prcik:

21 Feb 2014 3:53:54pm

"Manus Island violence: shocking but not surprising"

I strugle to find anybody shocked by any of this.

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Malachi Martin:

21 Feb 2014 3:54:38pm

It's unreasonable to attribute any blame to the Australian government. So called asylum seekers have a history of rioting in our detention centres, and riots are violent events. Every single "asylum seeker" needs to share the blame for this man's death because they sought to evade our proper immigration procedures.

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Whomovedmycheese:

21 Feb 2014 3:59:35pm

Another dead refugee under Gillard and Rudds policy. If only he hadnt cancelled TPV's. As one boat person said "Rudd changed everything."

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DaveS:

21 Feb 2014 4:01:03pm

Well put Graeme , but I fear your fears will fall on deaf ears , as it is now wrong to care.
Sure the boats have stopped and Indonesia is no longer talking to us -maybe we can use a Govt issued voucher for couples counselling- but what of those that are already in custody? Do we turn our backs on them even if they are found one and all to be refugees?
Australia and PNG will NOT aid them in finding another country to resettle in , so what do they do? Lose hope? Faith? Go back home and tell all and sundry that the Supreme Dear Leader was right all along and the West only cares for itself and that freedom will only come to those with vast Oil reserves.
Anyway keep up the good work as Journo's are barred from Manus and cant afford Nauru , so you are the only eyes and ears we have.... PS Its still OK to care for your fellow man , just not here.

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EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:05:17pm

Lets not forget Manus Is was reopened by the previous Government.

Alert moderator
- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:05:59pm
  
  It may have been reopened by Labor, but your mob are running the show now.
  
  They have an obligation to keep asylum seekers safe and not to allow thugs to break down the fence, attack and kill them.
  
  Or is that OK in your eyes?
  
  Alert moderator
frargo:

21 Feb 2014 4:05:43pm

Like Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd I was born a Catholic. I stopped going to church when I left school. Some of the tenets of the religion are worth holding onto. Compassion for one. To me Tony Abbott has rarely shown it and though it was supposed to be part of Rudd's agenda when dealing with refugees, he cannot claim Manus Island is a compassionate way to deal with anyone in the 21st. century, or any time for that matter. These men should practise what has been preached at them and show humanity not creepy religious piety that so misses the mark. Treat these people as you would want to be treated if you were so unlucky to be in their shoes.

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EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:09:59pm

"have been universally condemned by the Australian Human Rights Commission, global human rights organisations and the UN as being in breach of refugee rights."

Well all those organisations are free to set up their own processing centres anywhere in the world except Australia.

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Pback:

21 Feb 2014 4:11:07pm

An truly independent inquiry into the handling of the of the prisoners revolt is certainly required. Why they revolted must surely be obvious to even blind Freddie..

It is not too difficult to imagine the chaos in Australian prisons that would result from sentences having indefinite terms (as is the case with asylum seekers) and if there were no provision for parole. The prison system would be unmanageable.

The stupidity involved in setting up such a system of incarceration is, by any measure, negligent and irresponsible. The government is entirely responsible for what happened on Manus.

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X-Ray Eyes:

21 Feb 2014 4:11:29pm

Can anyone see the irony of "Stopping the people smugglers" and "Saving Lives at sea."
Such concern is commendable.
Even Hockeys tears during QT last year when he remarked "Over my dead body" seemed promising that maybe as a nation we starting to care.

The reality is it's only about playing to the people's phobias regarding asylum seekers.
Now we just penalise them with inhumane conditions and stereotyping these unfortunates as "Illegals". They need to do their penance for daring to seek shelter from harm.
Truly a sad injustice!

"

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X-Ray Eyes:

21 Feb 2014 4:11:29pm

Can anyone see the irony of "Stopping the people smugglers" and "Saving Lives at sea."
Such concern is commendable.
Even Hockeys tears during QT last year when he remarked "Over my dead body" seemed promising that maybe as a nation we starting to care.

The reality is it's only about playing to the people's phobias regarding asylum seekers.
Now we just penalise them with inhumane conditions and stereotyping these unfortunates as "Illegals". They need to do their penance for daring to seek shelter from harm.
Truly a sad injustice!

"

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prison:

21 Feb 2014 4:11:37pm

Excellent story. WE need more bombshells like this to be dropped to spark some action. I feel like the target of 15000 on your petition isn't enough though.

You could have 1 million and it still wouldn't be enough. The Liberal government, the media who parrot the same messages and its army of soldiers would REFUSE to acknowledge the facts or the truth and dismiss the evidence and ignorantly declare that the "stop the boats" policy has worked.

Watch as the comments for this story consist of the usual extreme right wing contributors, many either on the liberal payroll or with vested interests via coal or mining companies with their head stuck so far in the sand, with no self awareness, individual thought, conscience or ability for critical thinking and an underlying racism that leads them to be ALRIGHT with this barbaric refugee policy.

Money doesn't flow down the pyramid as we are told, only upwards. They need the common people to comply. For action, we need to take back the control that they have taken and tell them what action we want. In this case all we want is for policy to follow the recommendations of Amnesty international, the UN and other humanitarian organisations who have condemned this Liberal policy.

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EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:12:09pm

"An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven."

Presumably he had one in Indonesia.

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EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:14:56pm

"Conflicting reports have emerged about what sparked the violence and who was responsible for the injuries inflicted on 77 asylum seekers."

No mention of the injuries that were inflicted by the people trying to quell the violence.

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M Soo:

21 Feb 2014 4:17:16pm

Australia is a member of the International Community and it has obligations which in recent times it seems to have forgotten. One of these is to treat people whom seek refuge from harm in a fair manner.

I love hearing that we as individuals have obligations but it seems the Government and the country it represents doesn't. We feel sorry for people who have lost their homes in a fire but what about people who have lost both their country and their home?

Alert moderator
- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:22:38pm
  
  "One of these is to treat people whom seek refuge from harm in a fair manner."
  
  That assumes they are in harms way and not just country shopping.
  
  Alert moderator
EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:20:03pm

" Asylum seekers were forced to endure a daily regime of cruel and humiliating treatment, "

I think the centre is ment to be a deterrent not a holiday villa.

Alert moderator
- Jimmy Necktie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:51:10pm
  
  the centre is "ment" to be a place where people's claims of refugee status are processed in a timely manner.
  
  Those found to be refugees then go to PNG to live a tropical existence among the palms. Those found to be the bad kind of boaty are sent back home. Or secretly shot, I'm not sure.
  
  While they wait, Australia should provide them with the sort of facilities that show we are a civilised nation who walks what we talk when it comes to human freaking dignity. You know, like we give murderers and rapists here in the mainland prisons.
  
  Alert moderator
Jerry:

21 Feb 2014 4:20:03pm

Yes, violence is not surprising. The Australian response to asylum seekers in itself is violent and in turn will breed further violence. The militarisation of civil border protection. the forced transfer of persons to a different country without assessment of their eligibility to receive asylum is a violent act. Do we really want an Australia that solves its problems by authoritarianism and force?

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EVAN:

21 Feb 2014 4:22:47pm

"Some of these men have now endured seven months of this treatment, with no idea of when their ordeal will come to an end. "

It can end tomorrow or even today all they have to do is say I want to go home and they will be on their way.

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JMJ:

21 Feb 2014 4:23:15pm

Graeme, many will agree with you that the tragic death of Reza Berati could have been avoided if only Australia did the right thing in respect to asylum seekers seeking sanctuary.

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Persian:

21 Feb 2014 4:24:01pm

As an Iranian, I personally agree with both side of politics, as a person who lived in Iran for 29 years. I say for sure none of this person(just about iranian) who came by boat from iran is a genuine asylum seeker and they didn't came for safe heaven they came here as they heard they will earn hand out and live in laziness. i believe iranian government do torture and executive and so on BUT not for ordinary people that just for elite person like journalist that most of this people seek refuge in USA and EU which are good place for their activities. and .... i heard an interview on BBC persian with a person who could be a useful person in iran he came by boat and after a year he eventually learn 10 English number. just you judge this how can this person can be thinker against iran regime???? and the end of interview he said I couldn't find a job in iran. Do not waste money .I came here as an immigration and i committed to Australia. I think this is our money we paid tax , we have this right to say NO to lazy people. They are not useful neither in Iran nor in Australia. LONG LIVE Australia.

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- X-Ray Eyes:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:10:19pm
  
  Obviously you have inside information on this iranian. or are you generalising. Obviously you have been back to Iran and can confirm your assumptions.
  Even if this unfortunate fellow was not a true refugee he still had a right to our protection until such time as he has was processed:
  
  ?Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution? Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 14(1)
  
  Alert moderator
  - Persian:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:16:29pm
    
    if you could understand persian and lots of interview of bbc persian you understand how much am i right!
    I personally agree anyone has the right to seek asylum but just think twice about this big wave from iran which is %98 of them is not genuine how much money should waste for being process themeven for person don't have police certificate , Hey man you know some of them are criminals !!!!. I know lots of them which is now live as refugee within Australia I wonder just how they visa granted??? if they afraid of iran regime why they have travelled to iran more than me??
    Do you like help human go help to african and....
    
    I grew up in War time(Iran-Iraq war) that time we were guanine but I swear we don't have that much money which they paid to smuggler and even i don't have such a money right know !
    
    Alert moderator
No Offence, But...:

21 Feb 2014 4:29:39pm

"an innocent man" And how would you know that for sure?
I wonder how many countries he passed through on his way here that could have offered him protection/asylum? of course, none of those countries have such generous welfare arrangements as does Australia... but getting upset about an elected government actually adhering to it's policies is redundant, no?
Don't like it? Don't come here. Want to change the government? That's what elections are for. Bide your time and have another crack later on - if that will do any good... I seem to recall that Labor don't see too many votes in having open borders either.

Let the heart bleeding and hand wringing commence.

For all the good it ever does...

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Tator:

21 Feb 2014 4:31:32pm

Graeme,
"An innocent man" How do you know he was innocent. Were you there on the scene and witness everything or are you going on more than likely biased information from one side.
My view on this is that at this point in time, until the 2 inquiries are completed and compared, we are unable to confirm any details from a distance. As a veteran police officer, I have learnt not to make rash claims over guilt or innocence in events that I personally have not witnessed.
At this point in time, I have read conflicting evidence from various sources. One was from a PNG MP who claimed that the detainees had readymade weapons on them at the time of the disturbance and that the PNG police were called in to assist and help sort out the problem. Another source stated that the detainees were attacked by locals that included the police. I realise that the police in PNG do not have the same high standards of duty of care etc that Police here in Australia do but the other source also had a vested interest counter to the the current asylum seeker policy so I treat both with a grain of salt until further information that is unbiased is available.

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ExPNG:

21 Feb 2014 4:31:47pm

If these economic migrants / asylum seekers don't like the conditions in Manus, they should ask to return home.

They are not forced to remain on Manus - they have an option.

They never asked the Australian government for permission to come to Australia so they can hardly expect to be welcomed.

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Denny:

21 Feb 2014 4:32:47pm

Pity that you did not have the same concern for the 1200 who died trying to get here once labor opened the door. The reason this detention centre is even open is because of Graeme McGregor, kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and labor. Rudd and Gillard for enacting the legislation and people like McGregor for cheering that change.

hang you head in shame McGregor. You and your leftie mates are responsible for this tragedy but sadly you don't have the integrity to admit it.

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Frargo:

21 Feb 2014 4:33:08pm

Like Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd, I was born a Catholic. I stopped going to church when I left school. Some of the religion's tenets are worth holding onto. Compassion for one. Abbott has rarely shown it, and though it was supposed to be part of Rudd's agenda for dealing with boat people , he cannot claim Manus Island is a compassionate way of dealing with anyone any time. These men should practise what has been preached at them and show humanity unless creepy religious piety is all they're good for. Treat these people as you would want to be treated if you were so unlucky to be in their shoes.

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Henry Porter:

21 Feb 2014 4:35:22pm

Mr McGregor appears to be arguing that we cannot believe any review process that does not support his assertion that the deceased is an entirely innocent man. I'm no fan of our deputy opposition leader but it would appear that any proposition that she lacks a sense of irony would be much better coming from someone who seems to be far more deficient in that quality.
Whilst it appears that, in our view of the world, the local inhabitant's response to the disrespect shown to them by our uninvited guests may have been disproportionate it is not entirely hard to understand. Personally I find it difficult to sympathise with people who arrive uninvited, start demanding things as their right upon arrival, and then start destroying our property when they don't get their way.

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Sotapanna:

21 Feb 2014 4:36:37pm

The camps established by both parties and their management are bringing shame on Australia.
It is challenging to imagine how these refugees might adapt in NG if and when they are allowed out from the camp. Letting them out and allowing them to sense what an unsupported existence in NG might be like, might allow them to more readily decide on their future. Keeping them contained and not allowing them to sense the alternative to being transported home is both injurious and causing them to act as though they have no life any longer to lose.
It appears that the unknowns are problematic. The lethargic processing of claims is torturous and underlies and precipitates energetic reactions to being kept as an animal in a cage.
If the conditions are as described then the government ought not to feel that they are acting on my behalf.
Are we Australians as heartless as Morrison projects us to be?
Accepting the existence of racial undertones in immigration policy might start a process of self assessment, and, we might not like the conclusions?

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Bob jones:

21 Feb 2014 4:38:13pm

Last time I checked these people were free to return to their country of origin if they wished to do so. They are angry because they thought they could land a free ride at the expense of the Australian taxpayer. Do we honestly want people who will resort to violence when things don't go their way?

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- EVAN:
  
  21 Feb 2014 5:55:22pm
  
  "Do we honestly want people who will resort to violence when things don't go their way?"
  
  Exactly Bob.
  
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  - anarcho-syndiclist:
    
    21 Feb 2014 7:45:01pm
    
    It was our administration that resorted to violence, why don't you just blame the victims again
    
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Peter Graham:

21 Feb 2014 4:39:33pm

Graeme McGregor, I don't seem to remember any articles from you when hundreds of attempted illegal migrants were dying at sea, under the Rudd/Gillard government.
Did you miss those or is one death under Abbott policy more reprehensible than a thousand under Rudd/Gillard?
Your article should be held in contempt for what you omit to say about Rudd and Gillard.
These people are not refugees, they are people attempting to enter Australia illegally, with no means of identification and having paid a people smuggler for their passage.

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- Thomas:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:37:59pm
  
  You won't hear him telling us stories about the refugees rotting in camps who have no cash to pay smugglers and having to wait even longer to get to Australia because of boat people either.
  
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Schuey:

21 Feb 2014 4:40:29pm

"An innocent man came to Australia in search of a safe haven. Instead, he was killed under the Australian Government's watch. "
Maybe, or maybe he came not for safety but for economic reasons.

Regardless, if Australia is going to lock these people up till they give up and go home, which I don't have a problem with, at least we could provide half decent food and shelter to the poor buggers.

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- OverIt:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:04:03pm
  
  Schuey, "Regardless, if Australia is going to lock these people up till they give up and go home, which I don't have a problem with, at least we could provide half decent food and shelter to the poor buggers."
  
  On Nauru we built brand spanking new facilities to the tune of $60 million.
  
  The asylum seekers burnt them down.
  
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steveb22:

21 Feb 2014 4:43:03pm

John Howard was the first to see political advantage in
demonising refugees. This has been carried forward with such enthusiasm that (apparently) it is an essential component
of any political campaign, for both Labor & Liberal, tapping
a rich vein of racism and fear in Australians, leaving fair minded
Australians with no comfortable party to vote for, all 5 of them.
A line has been drawn in the sea; this side of the line we have
one of the wealthiest counties in the world, the other side
we have the world underclass desperately trying for a better life. That line is called the patriotic line, and patriotism is
"the last refuge of the scoundrel." We have plenty of those.

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reaver:

21 Feb 2014 4:49:58pm

The fact that the asylum seekers are not being processed is the issue at hand. The root cause of that is, I suspect, the government not trusting the processing system. They're right not to trust it. Not only was the internationally accepted burden of proof reversed by Labor so that the Immigration department had to prove that an applicant wasn't a refugee, rather than the applicant having to prove that they were a refugee, but the RRT (the Refugee Review Tribunal) was stacked with asylum seeker advocates by Labor. Asylum seekers who've had their cases rejected by the RRT have brought their cases before courts while legally represented by members of the RRT, people like the late John Gibson who was not only simultaneously on the RRT and acting as the legal representation for some of those before the RRT, but was also the president of the Refugee Council of Australia. It's not surprising that the system bottlenecks when the government can't trust it's own merit review mechanisms.

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- Jimmy Necktie:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:21:16pm
  
  "the government can't trust it's own merit review mechanisms."
  
  maybe then they should fix their review mechanisms to ones they trust so maybe this thing can run with some semblance that we know what we're doing. Meanwhile is it too much to give these people a clean toilet?
  
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  - reaver:
    
    21 Feb 2014 6:52:33pm
    
    Those mechanisms will be fixed as soon as Labor and the Greens in the Senate allow them to be fixed, Jimmy. Perhaps if you want the asylum seekers' cases to be promptly processed then you should be putting pressure on them.
    
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    - Jimmy Necktie:
      
      21 Feb 2014 7:52:56pm
      
      "The fact that the asylum seekers are not being processed is the issue at hand."
      
      Can I assume you'll do likewise then?
      
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Moses:

21 Feb 2014 4:49:59pm

Hmmm, the refugee campaign co-ordinator for Amnesty International wants an "independent" investigation, into the death of a person he somehow knows as a fact to be "innocent".
Sigh.
The last time anyone brought an independent and objective mind to this issue was well before 1788.

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Barraman:

21 Feb 2014 4:52:02pm

Hey Jock, the illegal immigrants on Manus are under the watch of the PNG government.
Facts, Jock, facts.

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gabrianga:

21 Feb 2014 4:53:49pm

An "innocent man" would have arrived at Mascot,Darwin,Perth etc airport with passport in hand and passed through our Immigration system to enter Australia for a determined time.

An "innocent man" would not have paid an airfare to Indonesia or Malaya then bought a passage on a leaky boat to enter Australia via the backdoor.

Perhaps if the Australian Government, which did the Manus Island deal with the PNG Government, or even Mr Rintoul had explained the "no landing in Australia" policy a bit better this incident would not have occurred?

Of course it is much easier to blame the current Government and totally ignore those who designed and approved the "agreement" with PNG.

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carbon-based lifeform:

21 Feb 2014 5:03:05pm

Why not just make a gift of Christmas Island to Indonesia?
It's about 400 kms from Jakarta.
And, over 2000 kms from mainland Australia.
There's not much there now that Britain ripped out all of the resources from the island.
The people who live there are wholly reliant on Australia for everything.

That would solve the problem of refugees who rely on people smugglers.

The right-wing cloth-heads who blame the refugees for the riots will never realise that when you take away all hope from people, anything can happen.

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Persian:

21 Feb 2014 5:05:39pm

As an Iranian, I personally agree with both side of politics, as a person who lived in Iran for 29 years. I say for sure none of this person(just about iranian) who came by boat from iran is a genuine asylum seeker and they didn't came for safe heaven they came here as they heard they will earn hand out and live in laziness. i believe iranian government do torture and executive and so on BUT not for ordinary people that just for elite person like journalist that most of this people seek refuge in USA and EU which are good place for their activities. and .... i heard an interview on BBC persian with a person who could be a useful person in iran he came by boat and after a year he eventually learn 10 English number. just you judge this how can this person can be thinker against iran regime???? and the end of interview he said I couldn't find a job in iran. Do not waste money .I came here as an immigration and i committed to Australia. I think this is our money we paid tax , we have this right to say NO to lazy people. They are not useful neither in Iran nor in Australia. LONG LIVE Australia.

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- stephen:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:06:13pm
  
  I'm friendly with a couple of very fine people who happen to have been born in Iran, too ... and though we have not discussed the current asylum situation in any detail, we have concluded one thing, and that is that good people do not take advantage of another people's goodwill, whether or not they have endured a severe history.
  They should refrain, too, from becoming involved in riots ; such a thing is teenager-like, i.e. getting into 'allsorts'.
  
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Benji:

21 Feb 2014 5:06:03pm

Oh Puh-lease! These are all economic refugees, at least, from Iran they are, as are most from Pakistan. They aren't in any danger, they aren't fleeing for their lives. They don't live in a war zone (Yes, they aren't 100% safe like we Aussies think we are, but they don't exactly face being rounded up and shoved in gas-chambers, either) and they are not poor. Most speak English (some exceptionally well) and most have some form of finances and skill.

Should we ban them from being here? Yes, if they arrive by boat, or any other way other than the normal immigrant channels. If they are genuine refugees fleeing a warnzone, they likely haven't bothered to learn any language but their own, have virtually no possessions and no money, and would see even the horrid conditions at Mannas Island as a luxury. Go to a real wor zone and see if I'm wrong (I served in Iraq and Afgahnistan with the ADF). Should we continue Operation Sovreign Boarders? Yes, at least we don't sink the boats and leave the swimmers to drown like the USA and many other "advanced" nations do. We send them back to where they came from, often in a better craft than they were in in the first place.

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- Trent Toogood:
  
  21 Feb 2014 8:01:34pm
  
  For a start you dont have to come from a "war zone" to be classified as a refugee.
  
  You dont know what sort of asylum seeker they are until you process them.
  
  To make sweeping ignorant, unsubstantiated comments only makes you look silly.
  
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anne:

21 Feb 2014 5:16:11pm

Firstly, one should ask themselves if somebody invaded our
country and caused death and mayhem would you make a run
for it with your family intact. I bet many of you would. No matter how you got there or how much it cost you.

We are talking about men women and children who have committed no crime being put into a prison on a prison island with
no hope in sight.

We do not treat criminals like this, so why are we treating decent human beings like this. Can any anti Assylum seeker's
inform us of the number of Indian Howard invited into Australia while he was demonising Assylum seekers to the public>

PerhaPS PS
the Assylum seekers have come from countries that we helped to
invade ie.e. Iraq, Afghanistan.

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JILL C:

21 Feb 2014 5:16:28pm

Whatever you think of Manus Island in particular, or off shore processing in general, the bottom line is, these people are trying to enter Australia illegally. They have arrived in Indonesia legally, with the appropriate identification, proceeded to the main centres where People Smugglers operate, also an illegal activity, and often facilitated by corrupt Indonesian officials. Paid considerable sums to the people smugglers, to gain entry to Australia, on rust bucket boats, in the process destroying their identification papers. Therefore, they are country shopping, economic refugees, prepared to break a number of laws to gain entry.

People who riot, mis-behave and wreck detention facilities, should immediately be returned to their country of origin. The UN Refugee Convention, is outdated, and does not reflect the reality of the world today, the fact that the vast majority of "Economic Refugees" are radical Islamic Fundamentalists, desensitized by centuries of warmongering, and ethnic and religious intolerance, who rarely interrgrate properly within the countries that do offer them a home, instead continue to preach and practice their disdain, carry out their barbaric practices such as, female genital mutilation and child brides, in blatant contravention of our Laws, prohibiting these practices, treat with open contempt any one who does not convert to their way of thinking. Think of France and the UK who have large ghettos of Muslims, many of whom have descended into violence and chaos. If this is not bad enough, many of these radicals return to their country of origin, receive training, then return to their adopted home, and carry out horrendous acts of violence, murder, and suicide bombings. Remember the Twin Towers, London Tube Bombings, and the unspeakable hatchet killing of a British Soldier?? We also have evidence of Australians returning to Syria to fight, which begs the question, why did they leave in the first place??

Australia is a Judeo/Christian country, why should we allow our country to be over run by Islamic people who have repeatedly proved, for centuries, that they have no respect for other cultures or religions. If you need any proof of this, you only have to look at what is happening in Syria and Egypt at the moment, where they are bombing and ethnically cleansing their own citizens, in the thousands. It is quite clear that these "Economic Refugees" target Australia as a destination, because of our very generous welfare, not because they want to live, work and contribute to our Society, but rather to take what is on offer, then, no doubt repay us with violence and murder. It is time we protected our heritage, and our children`s future, not let it be hijacked by warmongering, radical fundamentalists.

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- prison:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:48:43pm
  
  I hear these same arguments from people every day. Your fears are based on ignorance of the truth and fear of the unknown because you have been influenced and misinformed by propaganda and liberal slogans.
  
  the vast majority of these people will enter our country and assimilate and quietly keep to themselves, grateful at being granted a safe place to reside with their families. They will take up menial jobs that we wont do and struggle to find employment because they are pre-judged based on appearance by racist employers.
  
  Agreed though, once our trust is abused, deport ONLY the one who did the crime. Our visa should be similar to Germany, where they have a refugee visa which is renewed each year and they are given the same rights as a citizen, but the visa not renewed if they act up - this is how we can comply with our international obligations.
  
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vkgavg:

21 Feb 2014 5:22:01pm

Another apologist for this trade in people smuggling which has seen the deaths of hundreds at sea and millions accrue to people smugglers whom benefit from this illegal trade. What about some apology for the devastation caused at the villawood and Nauru detention centres and violence inflicted against personnel working at the centres. Just the sort of people coming through the back door that we need in this country. Didn't you happen to notice the masked thugs which suggest orchestration of this violence by the inmates of this centre. That's why we have one of the most generous refugee programmes which at least provides some check on the bona fides of asylum seekers.

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- anarcho-syndiclist:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:41:59pm
  
  As if it is a choice between deaths at sea and dehumanising, brutality, beatings and murder. The lack of other options only shows a complete lack of imagination from our political class. That or all of the so and so's value power over decency
  
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David:

21 Feb 2014 5:22:26pm

Reading some of the posts here, some of them are actually blaming the asylum seekers and making out they deserve what they get. Disgusting redneck comments, thank you Abbott, you fuelled this with your campaign of branding these people illegals and demonising them, so you could win a election, well done, then compound it by announcing we were in a war, making out their was some form of invasion and these people were to be feared and criminals. Operation Sovereign Borders another slogan for treating asylum seekers with inhumanity and your own people with contempt. So what if Rudd opened this centre, it is now under Abbotts watch, he and his secretive Minister caused this problem, proofing to the rednecks how tough and nasty they are to baddie boat people. Well done to you. Australia once a great country now just plain mean.

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- prison:
  
  21 Feb 2014 6:53:35pm
  
  spot on David, we need to do something about it and waiting for the next election isn't soon enough.
  
  Make sure to sign the Amnesty international petition. Its still not enough though.
  
  We treat our criminals better than we do asylum seekers who are kept in prison camps with worse conditions and no release date and not even an assessment to test if they are genuine.
  
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PeterH:

21 Feb 2014 5:23:56pm

The violence on Manus Island is certainly not surprising. In nearly every country in the world where there is a large concentration of Muslims there is violence.

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Poisonous Mushroom:

21 Feb 2014 5:28:30pm

I totally agree with you Graeme.

The actions of Australian governments for the last two decades plus have have increasingly moved to imposing deeper and deeper trauma upon individuals try to protect themselves in accordance with international conventions, all because of the demands of an increasing number Australians who appear to the wider world as bloated, safe, scared, selfish, uncaring, inhumane individuals. And much this being done under great secrecy and Army command of parts of the Navy in what the Prime Minister likens to a war by a country supposedly at peace.

It is time there was both an inquiry into the practices adopted by the current government plus the testing of the legality of its actions in the appropriate international courts.

Once the broader world increasingly focuses on the issues in years to come it is going to be too late in the future for Australians, like Germans before them, to say "we never knew this was going on, it was never done in our names". Some other nations are already signalling that they have very grave concerns with many of Australia's actions.

Let Australia at least sort out the legalities now by having issues tested in the appropriate international courts.

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- anarcho-syndiclist:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:39:13pm
  
  If this is a war, let's apply the principles of the Geneva convention. It accepts every prisoners right and duty to escape!
  
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Ben:

21 Feb 2014 5:30:28pm

All this article proves is that if you can't make the situation fit an emotive description, redefine the parameters to ensure it does. What is going on on Manus isn't cruel/humiliating punishment or torture, but rather a lack of facilities. But that doesn't fit the bill, so torture and cruelty have been redefined to now include poor ventilation, lack of soap and waiting in the sun for food. This riot proves that these people are prepared to use violence and manipulate the media in order to a) draw attention to their cause, and b) create pressure to favour the outcome they want.

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Jimmy Necktie:

21 Feb 2014 5:32:10pm

from the AI report

"One of the asylum seekers detained on Manus Island is a person with dwarfism. Despite his obvious difficulty in going about daily life at the detention centre, and in spite of his repeated requests for simple accommodations that would make his life easier?such as a stool to allow him to use the toilet without assistance?the centre had taken no steps..."

Why, he might use that stool, and six more, to scale the fence and skedaddle. Jeez Louise can't we even help a fella take a wee?

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JCricket:

21 Feb 2014 5:40:03pm

I am ashamed of Labor for instigating this Manus hell Hole. We are supposed to be a shining light of Democracy and advanced civilisation......now we have become sub-human and desensitised to human suffering, making clever arguments as if the subjects lives are worthless and meaningless statistics.

I am ashamed of Labor for playing the Conservatives at this abomination of a one-upmanship game all to appear the harder party on seekers of refuge - all for the sake of winning power.

I will never vote Labor again. Not unless the true Party People take it back. SHAME ON LABOR, you should know better, look to you founding principles! Liberals are happy to play in this sort of filth, it is their home turf and playing the man to win power is their base instinct. How low we have stooped!

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Committee of 300:

21 Feb 2014 5:40:30pm

I entirely understand both sides of the equation and can see that the old creed of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is being applied with gusto to the treatment of asylum seekers.
These perspectives are manipulations of our national psyche by government and media and depend entirely on more fundamental assumptions that are never discussed.

Such as; Why are we so nasty and mean-spirited as a nation?
Was it always this way?
Are our foreign policies helping to cause the worlds instability and thus increase the number of refugees/people searching for a better life?
Is the Abbott government manipulating these events to take the spotlight off the very real problems facing our economy which he doesn't know how to fix? (Except by reducing our living standards below our international competitors (but without reducing our swingeing cost of living, of course! Or his staggering salary and that of the ruling classes!))
Why do we make out that this country is so good to live in when my (and millions of others) experience of living here has been a bloody nightmare filled with deceivers, crooks, swindlers, thugs, and bought and paid for politicians who couldn't give a flying ..... about how we survive?
Why do we find it so easy to have such contempt for people that we will let them be killed without conscience?
Or is it that is what HUMANISM is all about?

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- Waterloo Sunset:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:35:58pm
  
  Stopping people voyaging in treacherous seas, is humanism.
  
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John:

21 Feb 2014 5:50:40pm

Under Labor and the Green's policy 15 people a month died for every month the policy was in operation. Where is the humanity in that!

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BJ:

21 Feb 2014 6:14:32pm

Graeme,

Another thing I find troubling is that the dead man has been named and his body is to be sent back to Iran for burial.

Hasn't his family now been identified and put at risk?

Perhaps people here think the Iranian government is all goodness and light.

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Benj:

21 Feb 2014 6:39:38pm

if Iranian Government is concerned about their residents welfare in detention centres in Australia, then why can't they request our Government to send them back and look after them. How do we know this man is innocent until we get the inquiry report? when we see the pitures in Television, you could see how they are behaving. same as they behave in their own country. we need good genuine migrants. we feel sorry for this young man's death but it is a good lesson for rest of the asylum seekers who are in the detention centres. they can't bring their violant behaviour and culture to this country.

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Benny:

21 Feb 2014 6:43:25pm

Here's an idea.

Why don't we run a shipping service that processes claims on board? We can ensure they cross the sea safely with no loss of life, ensure that only genuine refugees are let off and resettled and return to port the ones who aren't.

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- Benj:
  
  21 Feb 2014 7:44:40pm
  
  Benny, the difficulty for your suggestion is, the Iranian Govt won't accept their people back to their country. unlike Sri lankan Govt.
  
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stephen:

21 Feb 2014 6:56:27pm

The last time there was such a riot, $60 million of damage was completed by our new 'citizens'.
Now, watching the new riots on TV, many of the perpetrators wore masks so they could not be identified - there were cameras to the right of them, 25 meters away - and how energetic they seemed ; I think they certainly get their supper and cakes every night. (Then there's a nap)

To my mind, they appear the wrong people for this country whether or not they require our assistance ... and I even doubt that, from their behaviour at the very least, they will attempt to become citizens who play not their game, but ours.

I'd also like to query the notion that is always specified by the Greens that they - the asylum seekers, and all other disparate beings - are 'Human Beings', therefore they deserve the treatment meted out to residents of, say, The Palace Versailles. (Well, they're humans beings too, aren't they ?)
An HB is not a definite thing ; is qualifies itself through value and interest.
Some people resemble a human being, but fail on a second or further analysis ... and of those, many would not be redeemable of our 'interest'.

What I mean is, no one should have to twist themselves inside or out to placate another human being, if only because they resemble us visually, but fall by the way when it comes to any reasonable moral sense, or manners, or a propensity for violence, or any other thing that we may feel might injure us later.

The Greens look around themselves a lot, but they should once - at least once - use their brains a bit.

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Jimmy Necktie:

21 Feb 2014 7:06:39pm

combine all this with the bikie laws, renewed calls for internet censorship, Victoria's soon-to-be new anti-protest laws and this general idea of enforced politeness and I wonder how far away we are from whipping young women in the street for being slightly embarrassing to the government.

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ru4real:

21 Feb 2014 7:08:20pm

There are some real questions about the LNP's 'real solutions' whitewash.
First, why is the security on Manus Island so obviously inadequate?
Why is the murder of a young man referred to as a 'tragic death'?
Will the Australian Federal Police investigate his death, as they would other deaths which occur in detention?
Is the government's policy's real intention to deter asylum seekers from even attempting to come to Australia, because the prospects of being killed in detention is now a reality, and a real fear?
Why hasn't Tony Abbott come up with a real answer to the question of whether 'stopping boats' justifies any means, including not providing guaranteed safe living conditions for the people this government is towing back to Indonesia, or forwarding on to offshore processing centres?
And how much is this 'real solution' costing, in real dollars, compared to processing asylum seekers in Australia?

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anarcho-syndiclist:

21 Feb 2014 7:33:54pm

The Downfall of Civilisation
I am really distressed, I cried on Monday. Usually I do not tend toward emotion upset, I am a calm, collected man, even in the maelstrom of personal tragedy. I cried because of what happened on our concentration camp on Manus Island. I cried for what we have become.
I name it a concentration camp because that is what we have been creating. The British invented them to confine people (Boars) who would otherwise be dispersed among the community. Nazi Germany refined them to confine people (non-Aryan people and ?deviants?) who would otherwise be dispersed among the community. Australia has perfected them to (you guessed it!) to confine people (asylum seekers) who would otherwise be dispersed among the community. I say perfected them because Orwel's Big Brother would be proud of the way we call them "Detention Centers" to hide their true nature, the way we use a host of other issues to justify the brutal mistreatment of fellow human beings, the way which we control information to make the whole concentration camp nightmare to sound like something completely different. We really only differed from the first two in that we had not got around to killing and beating people who are interned in concentration camps.
Until Manus.
To our politicians; a pox on both your houses! The concentration camps, re-established red faced by the ALP, then prosecuted with bared teeth by the LNP. The ALP need to grow a moral backbone and the LNP need to crawl back into the amoral slime they emerged from.
I have news for them both. Any means does not justify the ends, the means is the ends. The means is what you BECOME.
Well done Australia.
We have just joined the monsters.

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Zany :

21 Feb 2014 7:55:34pm

It's one thing to turn boats around even though you don't know where you are territorially, and another to not be able to secure your detention territory. On this basis abbot has cost the life of a person fleeing from terror. The Malaysian solution should have been supported by abbot but he chose his own benefit over those of Australia and in so doing cost the country billions. Let's hope the voters of WA will not support his radical policies.

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algernon:

21 Feb 2014 8:01:40pm

The Australian government is in no way responsible for this persons demise, the responsibility lies with the refugee and the Iranian government ,it is a disgrace that it is allways the Australian taxpayer who cops the bill.It is time for Australia to aquire nuclear weapons so that any nation that dumps refugees on our doorstep can be absoutely destroyed if they don't stop it from happening

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Hudson Godfrey:

21 Feb 2014 8:01:44pm

I'm not surprised. Did I say I was surprised?

I think what many of us said was that we expected it!

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