WA distraction to test Coalition numbers
Posted
The fresh Senate vote may bruise the Abbott Government, but it could bounce back with state election wins and secure wall-to-wall Coalition governments, writes Barrie Cassidy.
Never before has Australia faced what is effectively a federal by-election involving an entire state. That's what the fresh Senate election in Western Australia amounts to.
Now the major parties, the minor parties, the independents, the single issue fanatics and the hangers-on will have to figure out how much money, time and effort should be devoted to this unique event.
For the Abbott Government, the replay is a distraction it could do without. Electorally, it can only hold its ground or lose a seat.
As it stands, and based on the original West Australian result, the government needs the Palmer United Party bloc plus two of the rest - two of Nick Xenophon, the Liberal Democrats, Family First and the DLP - to guide legislation through the Senate.
The fresh election will either maintain the status quo or force the government to win the support of three of that unlikely foursome.
That is because any shift in the numbers is likely to give either the ALP or the Greens an extra seat.
But even though on the face of it the Coalition seems to be on a hiding to nothing, the election could nevertheless provide it with a timely opportunity to give Bill Shorten and Labor one last whack on the carbon tax. That skyrocket has brightly burned for the Coalition for years. But some time after July when the new Senate meets, a dead stick will finally fall to earth.
This is Tony Abbott's one last chance to extract maximum pain from his opponent before that day arrives.
Since the election - as companies closed and jobs were lost - the carbon tax issue gained fresh resonance. The Labor Party has never been more uncomfortable with the issue.
When it is finally axed by the Senate, there will be just as much champagne consumed in Labor offices as in the government offices.
Labor politicians know it is hurting them. The argument was lost conclusively when the country voted. The longer it hangs around, the harder it is for the opposition to move on to other issues.
The West Australian "by-election" will add to a mixed bag of election results through the early months of this year.
The Griffith by-election, though won by Labor, provided a moral victory for a new government in Canberra and a not-so-new government in Brisbane.
The state-based Redcliffe by-election in Queensland this weekend, however, will no doubt give Labor a big win.
But then three weeks later, Labor faces more embarrassment when two ageing state governments in Tasmania and South Australia face the voters.
The Senate election in Western Australia will change Senate numbers realistically by one seat either way, but those state elections could transform the political landscape, creating wall-to-wall Coalition governments around the country. That would be a culmination of a process that has been gradually unfolding since Labor held them all during the early Rudd years.
So it may be that after July, Abbott and the Coalition will have to put away its heaviest weapon, the carbon tax, and take up new artillery.
And that is what the Royal Commission into the unions is partly about; that's what the inquiry into the home insulation program is partly about; and that's why the government is looking at referring Craig Thomson to the privileges committee even though he's no longer in the parliament.
The Coalition is collecting plenty of ammunition - most it with Bill Shorten's name of it. Ammunition that can be brought out when the carbon tax loses its relevance.
Barrie Cassidy is the presenter of ABC programs Insiders and Offsiders. View his full profile here.
Topics: government-and-politics, elections, abbott-tony, bill-shorten
Comments (380)
Comments for this story are closed, but you can still have your say.
APM:
21 Feb 2014 7:02:09am
No more Labor state governments soon. The end of that horrid strategy of government by spin, and little substance. No more slick governments with hundreds of media advisor types and announcing the same initiatives over and over, and producing little. No more huge debts. NO more 'whatever it takes' to hold power for power's sake. Go have a good hard look at the way you govern Labor.
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Iswide:
21 Feb 2014 7:40:06am
APM, how does the LNP differ? Particularly as it is led by a sel-confessed liar and relies on slogans for bogans.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 8:18:49am
I have come to the conclusion that calling the government's clearly enunciated policies 'slogans' is in fact a slogan. It's a description that has become a boring cliche and adds nothing of value to political debate. Stopping the boats is very real, principled, and popular. You rely on three meaningless keywords: 'Lair', 'slogan', 'bogans'. Nothing but slogans.
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DOSomething:
21 Feb 2014 9:05:51am
The LNP wouldn't know a clearly enunciated policy if they tripped over it. Their "real solutions" pre-election glossy was so lightweight and full of motherhood statements that even their own members were embarrassed to be associated with it (who can forget Malcolm Turnbull cringing over it on Q&A?).
APM just because something is "popular" doesn't make it decent or right - sadly it sometimes wins elections and in this case is taking Australia down a very soul-destroying path of division, selfishness and greed.
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whogoesthere:
21 Feb 2014 9:14:16am
'NO more 'whatever it takes' to hold power for power's sake.'
The Libs do that as much as Labor, that's the way the system works. We have a short election cycle, both Parties want to be in power, both will do pretty much whatever they can to win. We all know the 'cycle', they'll do the nasty things early in their term, then hope everyone's forgotten when the election comes around.
They both blame each other for things that are caused by external forces, like cheap overseas labour. They'll both stick up for 'dodgy' politicians if they need their support. When in Opposition they'll both claim 'doom and gloom' basically trying to scare people, and talk the country down. They will only grudgingly be bi-partisan when in reality they agree on many things. They will attack perceived bad behaviour on the other side, and justify it on their own. They'll both exaggerate the other sides mistakes, and make excuses for their own.
People can follow whichever team they like, but to pretend they don't both employ the same tactics to get elected is just kidding yourself.
It's not their fault in a way. If any Opp Leader said 'the Governments doing a pretty good job on 'X'', if a PM ever said 'the Opposition's got a good idea about 'Y'', they'd get caned. Or maybe they wouldn't becaause they're all so engrained with the 'us v them, win at all costs' mentality instead of thinking 'what is good for the country' we'll never know.
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GRF:
21 Feb 2014 8:27:51am
So far the coalition is proving that they do rather than just say. They have put an end to the farce on our borders, an end to the deaths at sea and an end to the billions wasted.
If this is a foretaste of what is to come, things look promising.
Labor is more interested in appearances and placating the looney left than in the world of physical and financial reality.
Wall to wall conservative governments? If only it were possible.
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virgil:
21 Feb 2014 8:53:31am
I think we might be in for a bit of a shock around budget time when the figures for Operation Sovereign Borders come in. I've seen figures of $60,000/hour quoted for running RAN vessels during ocean rescues. How many boats do we have operating near (or in) Indonesia on this assignment? Plus won't Manus I be a new cost on the next budget? I know a few smaller detention centres have closed around the country, but look out for a big increase in defence spending at the next budget to cover the costs of "stopping the boats".
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dinohtar:
21 Feb 2014 9:14:02am
I expect that the defense forces still need to be paid, regardless if they are out on patrol, or back at base.
its when they go into a danger zone that they pay goes up, but I doubt Christmas Island covers that.
maybe you could ask how much would it cost if the boats did nothing, and our forces stayed in base paying cards 24 hours a day ?
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 9:21:54am
Labor literally decimated defence spending (ie by 10 percent), whilst creating the pull factors that necessitates these operational costs. Still don't know why Labor thought dismantling effective border protection measures was a good idea. A bit like a bored child poking an ants nest. Defence funding can be redeployed from drawdowns from overseas commitments. Manus could also be termed 'foreign aid'. Each asylum seeker that doesn't enter our community represents huge savings in intergenerational welfare, as well as hidden costs of importing an uneducated, hostile underclass like crime and other social dysfunction. It's not demonising or xenophobia; that's just how it works.
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NikMak:
21 Feb 2014 9:01:07am
1. Its way to soon to say they have been successful or not (monsoon season and all that).
2. There was a massive slowdown in numbers before they even came into office (maybe labours fault, maybe monsoon - refer to number 1).
3. This "Success" certainly hasn't come without its own cost - a strained relationship with Indonesia, perhaps a tarnished reputation overseas, and the continued death of the "boat people", except now its just happening on dry land instead.
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Barge:
21 Feb 2014 9:15:17am
You don't mention that the most strain with the Indonesian relationship was caused by the actions of the Labor Party. I thought they were in charge when we spied upon the president's wife and others.
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RayS:
21 Feb 2014 8:31:14am
According to the research by Essential in the last few weeks, 49% of voters are against the carbon tax, 41% are for it, but 83% want action to prevent man made climate change.
Abbott clearly has lied about taking action to prevent man made climate change. Quite the contrary, the LNP are even attacking renewable energy generation and the home solar movement. Generators and distributors are lobbying for big increases in energy charges. They blame renewable energy which has proven to be cost effective and popular and they want renewable energy curtailed, which is not what 83% of voters want.
The coal and iron ore mining companies have magically found huge profits, indicating they had "book-engineered" to avoid paying the mining tax.
Abbott is as faithful to protecting the polluters as he is to rewarding Rupert Murdoch. Expect a knighthood for Col Pot for services to propaganda if they reintroduce knighthoods.
Abbott's callous attacks on manufacturing industry and the ongoing closures of factories are also reducing demand on the power grids. It's Abbott getting squeezed, not Labor.
Labor might get some kudos from those who oppose the carbon tax, but would lose voters to the Greens. Capitulation on the carbon tax would also show the rotten Labor Right is resurgent. Labor should stick to their principles.
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Joe Sixpack:
21 Feb 2014 9:07:22am
Carbon isn't a pollutant and that's the problem with you climate change fanatics you don't understand what you are so passionate about. You are driven by ideology rather than science. While I believe humans are affecting the environment I don't believe in using 200 years of 4.5 Billion years of data to establish a trend that calls for fanatical action.
We need to take action but it should be through Policy not lumping costs on the community. I have worked in one of the largest carbon industries for 27 years and I have seen a huge reduction in emissions over that time solely self driven because it is good business sense to reduce energy costs. To state business do nothing of their own accord is absolute rubbish. The only business that doesn't is the energy producer itself because that IS their business.
Besides, on an absolute raw level human kind isn't going to outlive the sun and who decided to make up a moral cause that living people should sacrifice their quality of life for people that haven't even been born yet? seems like a typical feel good ideology to me. We are on a road to extinction regardless may as well enjoy it.
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Nick:
21 Feb 2014 9:14:16am
RayS ..how about you state some facts when accusing people of lying.
Abbott went to the election with a policy ..please tell me where it has changed.
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Nick:
21 Feb 2014 9:09:32am
I love it when the Abbott haters bring up the subject of Lying in their usual rants against Abbott as it reminds us how Gillard stared down that camera and stated"There WILL NOT be a carbon Tax under a government I lead" to get elected and then gave us a carbon tax.
Ohh the hypocrisy!
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 7:44:16am
And then there will be LNP government's dumped in Queensland and Victoria maybe even WA. What comes around goes around.
State elections should be decided on state issues. I've never voted for or against a party at a state level because of what I thought about their federal party. And yes before you ask I have voted several times at a state level for the National party member because I thought a lot about that person.
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Algernon:
21 Feb 2014 8:21:11am
I don't think they'll get dumped in Queensland, but Campbell won't hold his seat, so it will be a lame duck government after that.
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NikMak:
21 Feb 2014 9:03:40am
yeah, way too many seats to get back for labour to actually reform government.
But an LNP government without Newman might be less of a liability...
wishful thinking?
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Forrest Gardener:
21 Feb 2014 8:54:54am
Yes Yank. Yes. Everything goes in cycles.
After the SA and Tas elections, the only way for the Labor Fan Club will be up. Like the common cockroach, Labor will survive!
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 8:00:22am
Yes, APM, Labor didn't do enough for chocolate tourism, nor gear public health policy towards the interests of the junk food industry.
They wasted $billions on actual school halls rather than om disarming a country of non-existent WMD.
For their sins, they also failed to lower the wages of the low-paid by 40%, as the Coalition are attempting to do.
In fact, Labor signally failed to govern exclusively for the 1%, and fot that they deserve a massive fail.
Perhaps, to succeed, Labor needs to learn not just to present a unified front (spin, spin), but that cash for policy is a prerequisite for a polity that is selling itself to the highest bidder.
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A happy little debunker:
21 Feb 2014 9:12:42am
Mark,
Seems to me that if your getting 40% above award rates, your doing pretty darn well!
Now the Julia Gillard Fair work minimum (less than the award) is 622.20/week or $32 000 per annum.
40% above this Julia Gillard Fair work minimum (not the award) is $871.08/week or $45 000 per annum.
The employees in question were getting close to 100% above the Julia Gillard Fair Work minimum.
You can hardly label these people 'low paid'!
But the irony is that people abused TA, as telling porkies about the overly-generous conditions offered to these employees - and we now know that they are getting 40% more, in base pay, than their manufactuing peers.
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Nick:
21 Feb 2014 9:17:42am
Mark James..making deceptive accusations is something you haters love to do.
Please link us to some facts relating to your accusations of wanting to reduce low paid workers wages by 40%.
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Robert:
21 Feb 2014 8:09:00am
As someone living in Queensland under the Newman government, and as an Australian living under the Abbott government, let me assure that government by spin and lack-of-substance, and government with huge debts and doing "whatever it takes" to hold power is still well and truly alive.
A lot of that is opinion and subjective, but the "huge debts" part is quantitative and undeniable if you have any interest in facts.
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whatif:
21 Feb 2014 8:14:50am
APM get real, cant you see past the pimple on your nose, LNP no jobs, privatisation of all assets, no ability to put forward any policies except the expensive ppl for women of calibre which will be paid by the lesser women of calibre , factories closing on a daily basis, Telstra cutting another 800 jobs. No infrastructure being built, abbott still hiding from the people as he aims to try and distract the people with the carbon tax. New tax on seeing a doctor. refugee killed on manus island, abbott spending tax payers hard earned cash on buying boats for them to send them back to Indonesia, international disharmony with our nearest neighbours. As for state governments, Qld under LNP will have no assets shortly as it sells off ports and any thing else it can, WHY BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE THE BRAINS THEY SAID THEY HAD. Qld under the LNP have regressed back to the days of Joh and has once again become a police state, and in doing so we are now seeing the corruption coming back. Labor may have had its problems and emphasised by the abbott government in opposition, but so does abbott and the lnp, they have been proven liars by their own double standards and the fact they are no longer the adults in charge but a mob of deceitful and arrogant people by any standard. They don't even sit in parliament as much as the ALP did and there fore are not even being seen to work for their money. The biggest joke of all is the few LNP idiots who cant see past the joke of it all. Who knows he may have to extend the marriage between him and the greens to the pup circle so they can all get what they want.
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DoSomething:
21 Feb 2014 8:25:00am
You can't be serious!
The LNP are the masters of the 3 word slogan and dumbing down the national "debate". They have demonstrated they are out of their depth on many fronts and devoid of fair policies that will advance the interests of ALL Australians.
As for announcements, there are plenty of infrastructure projects initiated by LABOR being RE-announced by the LNP in order to claim credit for them.
Don't judge the LNP by their words, judge them by their ACTIONS.
One-term Tony for AUSTRALIA'S sake.
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Algernon:
21 Feb 2014 8:29:42am
Now lets see Ford, Holden and Toyota all leave under Abbott's watch. Lets not forget the 100000 other jobs that will go that feed that industry. No worries Otto's relative Eric tells us we've got a thriving bus industry to take its place building hmm 200 buses a year.Pour money into a chocolate industry for the tourist. Oh I forgot a state election is imminent. Bult real food and a local worth of $800m , well let them eat cake.
Lets look overseas, China of all countries lectures us on human rights and a navy who can work out where borders are with centimetre accurate GPS, not to mention Indonesia turn their backs on up.
And they reckon they're the grown ups in charge!
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Ben the lawyer:
21 Feb 2014 8:34:42am
'The end of that horrid strategy of government by spin, and little substance.'
As much as I am not a fan of Labor and its acolytes, we shouldn't pretend like this is a Labor-only problem.
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Zathras:
21 Feb 2014 8:36:04am
Wasn't it John Howard who said that having a Federal Labor government plus all State Labor governments was somehow a serious threat to democracy - or was it just more of that rank contrived political opportunism that the Libs are famous for?
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David:
21 Feb 2014 9:07:27am
APM you are a rusted on, no welded on coalition supporter, on the other hand I vote for the Party who will provide what my family will need not only now, but twenty years from now. If Coalition appears to provide that fine and if Labor provide that fine. But the current government has shown itself to be nothing but slogans, lies, then denials, then , more looking back to see if the backside is still in place, then more announcements of reviews, so many lost count, then secret operational on water matters, then a bit of back stepping then a couple of thought we heard it thrown in. As much as you love your preferred party, have a clear look at what they still haven't achieved. If they win the next state elections kiss goodbye to your working conditions, fair schooling for all kids, and affordable health care. A swinging voter I might be but I won't vote for Abbott and his minions again soon.
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Zany:
21 Feb 2014 7:02:28am
Unfortunately for the LNP they have had to unleash their policies on Australia and Australians. No wonder they tried to keep them quiet before the election. Now well see if the votes of WA support the mad mad mad world of abbot.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 11:59:10am
"Now well see if the votes of WA support the mad mad mad world of abbot."
We will indeed.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 12:46:10pm
Question for you Evan ... if the Liberals do not retain their three WA Senate seats will you admit that the Abbott government is on the nose with the Australian people. Remember that WA is the most conservative state in Australia.
If Labor does not hold onto its two Senate seats I will admit that they are going in the wrong direction.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 1:53:49pm
" if the Liberals do not retain their three WA Senate seats will you admit that the Abbott government is on the nose with the Australian people"
No of course not.There is no doubt that the government has done and is forcasting somethings that are not popular and it is entirely possible that the WA people might want to give the government a kick.
And if the Liberals hold their 3 seats will you admit that Labor is still on the nose with the electorate.Probably not.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 5:39:41pm
You won't but I will admit that if Labor loses either of the two seats they should hold they are botching things up.
An adult would look at its actions if enough people tell them they are going the wrong direction.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 5:45:15pm
"No of course not."... EVAN, if the Coalition loses the next Federal election will you admit that the Abbott government was on the nose with the Australian people?
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 7:36:29pm
Yes
And if Labor loses the next election will you admit Labor is on the nose.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 12:49:40pm
Please enunciate these "policies" you speak about.
There are many negative fear campaigns being run by that iconic Mr Negative BShorten all based on absolutely nothing.
This week it will be "WORK CHOICES, WORK CHOICES"
The ALP are so predictible in therir negative reaction to any government comment and have perfected the art of the Fear Campaign.
So expect the WA election to be the classical Fear Campaign. Hopefully it will be as successful in WA as it was in Griffith and the ALP lose votes as they did in QLD.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 2:07:21pm
Were you not around during the Abbott opposition? It was all fear and negativity. Successful use of fear and negativity, I grant you, but that's all it ever was.
Now that the Coalition is in power, they want to a) reduce worker entitlements (by lying about how that affects industry), b) reduce worker income (same lies), c) reduce medical cover (by charging poor people more), d) indoctrinate children (by conservativising the curriculum), e) damage the environment (by dumping spoil on the barrier reef and by denying and ignoring climate change), f) backflip on their NBN promises (originally FTTP was promised for all of Tasmania, for example), g) upset all neighbouring countries (c.f. Indonesia), h) upset the entire world (by reducing aid to poor countries).
I have to stop now as my hands are tired from typing. I'm trying to think of a single Abbott policy that I support. Normally I can think of a few Coalition policies that I'm OK with (thinking back to the pre-Abbott days), but these days I can't.
Abbott is anti everything I think Australia stands for. I think he and his crew easily take the cake as the most regressive, anti-citizen government we have seen.
Yes, I would welcome a return of the "Julia and Kevin" carnival show as an alternative to this mean-spirited anti-evidence pro-rich destruction-oriented government. And that thought disturbs me because the Kevin vs Julia infighting was something I thought had to be the lowest point we could stoop to politically. But Abbott has sailed past that low point and proven me wrong.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:20:28pm
a) reduce worker entitlements - NO they do not
b) reduce worker income - NO they do not
c) reduce medical cover (by charging poor people more) - NO they do not,
d) indoctrinate children (by conservativising the curriculum),- NO they do not
e) damage the environment (by dumping spoil on the barrier reef and by denying and ignoring climate change), - NO they do not
f) backflip on their NBN promises (originally FTTP was promised for all of Tasmania, for example) - NO they do NOT they are too busy trying to clean up Conroys satellite fiasco CON
g) upset all neighbouring countries (c.f. Indonesia) - that was a result of spying under the ALP governments
, h) upset the entire world (by reducing aid to poor countries) - rather give money to our poor.
Please provide evidence of policies before the Parliament doing a), b), c) or d) for starters.
ALP bleating about non- existent policies do not count.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 7:36:52pm
Andie, you really should pay some attention. Your hero Abbott is on record as blaming worker pay and entitlements for problems at SPC and for the car industry's exit. SPC and Toyota have explained that it's not that, but mainly the high dollar. Hence Abbott and co are targeting worker pay and conditions as policy and deliberately ignoring evidence. It's not something that you can deny by just using capital letters. They have a deliberate policy of widening the income gap in this country.
Medicare is under review. The expected outcome is simple: less medical cover and charging more for it. Again, you can't deny that by just using capital letters.
In fact, now that I look more closely, you simply deny the obvious and add some capital letters to be sure we know you are denying in a clear right-wing manner. Regardless, you're just wrong. Abbott wants workers to be poorer, be less well educated and to have fewer rights and conditions. Shouting at us just makes you look foolish.
Oh, and I forgot the Royal Commissions into unions and pink batts. Transparently political. Simple anti-Labor stuff. Such a waste of taxpayer money.
As for my points f, g and h, your answers give no joy either. Tasmanians were promised the full NBN and now they won't get it. Abbott is right up Indonesia's nose because of what he does right now (with the Navy sailing into Indonesian waters towing boats) not just because of (continuing) Australian spying. And for a rich country like Australia to reduce our pitifully small aid budget is disgusting. It's not even as though the money is going to Australian poor people (as if "poor" here means the same as "poor" in a 3rd world sense) it just goes to Abbott pet projects like his incredibly expensive asylum seeker towboats scheme (otherwise known as the Australian Navy).
Really, Abbott has disappointed me and I wasn't expecting him to accomplish anything. I had no hopes from him but his full speed backwards approach is startling and incredibly depressing. This is what the world sees when they look at Australia. So sad, so very sad.
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Wining Pom:
21 Feb 2014 2:20:20pm
'The ALP are so predictible in therir negative reaction to any government comment and have perfected the art of the Fear Campaign.'
Gosh Andie, your memory doesn't stretch more than 6 months.
Where did the ALP learn this tactic?
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:22:07pm
SO you agree how negative and obstructionist Shorten opposition is .
Then why does lie and tell us he wants to be positive??
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Nell:
21 Feb 2014 4:21:04pm
Very accurate observation Zany.
It is notable that the this Liberal/National party coalition enjoyed no "honeymoon" phase. They have very quickly engaged, as most newly elected governments do, in implementing the most toxic and unpopular policies. However, usually there is not a partial election rerun early in the term, just the occasional by-election.
The exodus of major manufacturing brands, the increased insight into the way the carbon tax/energy bills story was run by the conservatives (in other words, not owning up to the fact that it was, in much larger measure, poles and wires pushing the prices up), the big jump coming in gas prices despite those companies having anticipated the end of the tax, the recent spate of serious fires again just five years after Black Saturday does look good for LNP prospects in Victoria. They have already been on a knife edge with the hung parliament.
People are not going to experience these catastrophic events in WA, SA and Victoria and continue to listen to this absurd climate denialism and any patch-pocket schemes the Energy corporations will "allow".
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JamesH:
21 Feb 2014 7:08:27am
Yes Barry time will tell if the Carbone Tax is really the blame for all Australia's catastrophic manufacturing inability to compete on this major un-level playing field on the world market caused by China manufacturing power output.
I think most of Australians deep down this is not the case while recognising Australia's high dollar against the rest of the world's basket case scenarios in the balance of trade. The Australian general public will conclude Pope Abbott Inquisitor jurisdiction will be only a wast of tax payers dollars.
But then Abbott doesn't care about that does he as it is only his ego he cares about.
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Clusterpod:
21 Feb 2014 8:03:43am
All available evidence points to Free Trade Agreements as being the prime cause of the recent destruction of much of Australian manufacturing.
Everything else is largely ideological posturing in an attempt harm the unions, lower wages and to bring down the ALP's funding sources.
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Alfie:
21 Feb 2014 10:06:08am
"attempt harm the unions"
Unions are doing a pretty good job of harming themselves. Perhaps you should buy a newspaper.
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The se:
21 Feb 2014 11:47:33am
Alfie, don't believe everything you read in the Murdoch papers, most of it is crap.
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Alfie:
21 Feb 2014 3:08:34pm
So the findings against Thompson and Williamson are just 'crap'? Mr Ostrich
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:02:11pm
Ideological posturing I would think cuts both ways.
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JP:
21 Feb 2014 2:36:21pm
Both ways? More like every way a political identity exists. Greens, PUP and minors are no less colored by their political ambitions than Labor, Liberal or National.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 12:14:08pm
And it's full steam ahead on Free Trade Agreements still, no matter what harm they do.
The recent one with South Korea includes sovereignty-destroying ISDS clauses (Investor-State Dispute Settlement). So now South Korea (or any multinational they let set up shop there) can sue us if we try too hard to protect our health or environment at the expense of trade in hazardous goods (plain packaged cigarettes, anyone?).
The mother of all FTAs, the Trans-Pacific Partnership is set to whack us with a huge ISDS system which will ensure that multi-nationals are never delayed or inconvenienced by local law. Oh, and they'll add severe penalties for copyright infringement in there while they are at it. The Free Trade part? Is it still there? Hardly matters really.
And, of course, both of these agreements were negotiated in secret with no public scrutiny. This denies us our basic rights.
We are having elections soon in WA, SA and Tas. We could add a referendum on secrecy in trade negotiations to this. We can and should ban secret treaties that remove our rights.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 8:30:24am
I really wonder some times why people have a mental block when it comes to the Rudd Swan Gillard Swan effect on Australia.
Try as I may I cannot think of one decent reform they implemented and completed that is now benefiting Australians.
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PW:
21 Feb 2014 9:09:16am
They raised the tax free threshold from $6,000 to $18,000.
GBE, you need to think harder. There are plenty more.
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PeterH:
21 Feb 2014 10:16:30am
You forgot to add that for those on incomes up to $37k they also increased the marginal tax rates from 15c to 19c, and for those on incomes up to $80k they increased the marginal tax rate from 30c to 32.5c.
You also forgot to add that this was done to compensate some of the people for the carbon tax that we weren't going to have under a Government Gillard led.
Someone on $50k a year saved $10 per week in tax under the new tax rates. This was eaten up by higher power bills Those on $80k or more saved nothing in tax but still have to pay the higher energy bills.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 12:51:17pm
And those above $80 K paid more income tax.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 2:47:56pm
How did they pay more tax if the tax rate didn't go up?
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 3:19:53pm
Tax free threshhold $6000 - $37000 at 15c = $4650 tax
Tax free threshhold $18200 - $37000 at 19c = $3572 tax
Tax free threshhold $37000 - $50000 at 30c = $3900 tax
Tax free thresshold $37000 - $50000 at 32.5c = $4225 tax
Tax payable 2012 = $8550
Tax payable 2013 = $7797
Decrease in tax = $ 753
Tax reduction was $14.48 pw
The cost of the CT was $9 per week so they were overcompensated.
Over $80000 pay more, I probably did but I could afford to. Next whine please.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 5:37:09pm
Lazarus,
you have left out the Low Income Tax Offset which the ALP cut back as well which is claimable at the end of the year with your tax return. It meant that the effective tax free threshold for low income earners was more than that for those earning higher incomes. So there is little gain from the increase in the tax free threshold.
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 11:22:12am
If your lucky enough to have job you may benefit but when you take out the cost off the carbon tax and the little levy s people forget about it may not be such a benefit at all.
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burke:
21 Feb 2014 11:48:57am
That was just spin. People on about $15,000 already paid no tax. People on $20,000 pay about the same as before, because they go straight to the 30% rate now. It was pretend tax reform. Try harder.
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CJ:
21 Feb 2014 1:53:35pm
Guys, we're on the internet - it took me about 5 seconds to find the actual facts from the ATO website: http://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/
2012-2013
Taxable income: Tax on this income
0 ? $18,200: Nil
$18,201 ? $37,000: 19c for each $1 over $18,200
$37,001 ? $80,000: $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000
$80,001 ? $180,000: $17,547 plus 37c for each $1 over $80,000
$180,001 and over: $54,547 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 3:42:04pm
Wrong, people on $30000 pay 19c in dollar, go to ATO website
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A happy little debunker:
21 Feb 2014 9:16:12am
I can - not a reform, per se - but we are all benefitting.
They both quit and left parliament!
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 11:25:54am
Yes but they still have their hands in your pocket.
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pigman:
21 Feb 2014 11:46:53am
"I can -not a reform, per se - but we are all benefitting."
Speak for yourself, Buddy.
$6 Doctor fee proposal.
Rising unemployment.
Talk of abolishing of penalty rates.
School kids bonus......gone.
Ongoing Union bashing (despite recent corruption, Unions have promoted better conditions for Australian workers).
Unaffordable housing.
Please tell me how working families have benefitted from this Government?
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 12:57:41pm
1. There is no proposal from the government
2. The rising unemployment was forecast by the Rudd government to reach 6.25% at least.
3. There is no talk of abolishing penalty rates - the discussion is about trading penalty rates for other conditions which the AWU did a couple of weeks ago with the workers at the Police Boys clubs in NSW so they could afford to open of Saturdays
4 Sensible ex members of Unions are volunteering to give evidence against the corruption and fraud in the unions so people know their union money goes to the betterment of the members not the union heavies
5. Unaffordable housing has nothing to do with the fedderal government
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pigman:
21 Feb 2014 1:58:10pm
1. http://mobile.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/fat-tax-on-junk-food-worse-than-6-gp-fee-says-terry-barnes/story-fneuz9ev-1226829722099
2. Rudd is gone. What is the current government doing to address rising unemployment?
3. Abbott's a bit coy on this one but it will be proposed after the Union RC. The PBC example is an invalid, one off, although any negotiation that benefits both parties is admirable.
4. Corruption exists where there is power unchecked. It makes me sick. The LNP and it's backers are not immune to this, they just cover it up better. As I said, the Unions have always promoted better conditions for Australian workers. I welcome the royal commission as a chance to weed out parasites like Obeid and for the Unions to modernise.
5. Government policy has everything to do with unaffordable housing. Negative gearing, first home buyers grant.
As I am accountable for my actions so is the government accountable for its.
Again I ask, what is the Abbott government doing for working families?
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:28:58pm
1. That is not the Government
2. Where was the ALP Jobs plan to address when they knew was coming???
3. Any changes will be taken to the 2016 election as promised
4. Pity BShorten didn't welcome as he will be the biggest loser.
5. Keating tried abolishing negative gearing and had to reverse becuase it created a housing shortage. Do you want a repeat. Aren't first nhome owners grants state policy??
What did the ALP do in the last 6 years in this policy are. Please tell as they were accountable for the growth in the last 6 years.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 3:56:06pm
1. Dutton wants co-payments, Sloppy Joe said today that bulk billing had to go for people not on welfare.
2. 6.25% was before Forge 1300 jobs gone, Sensis 800 jobs gone, Alcoa Port Henry 570 jobs gone, Alcoa Nhulunbuy 1200 jobs gone, Toyota 2900 jobs gone, GM 3500 jobs gone and thec automotive supply industry $50000 jobs minimum gone under Tony. But don't worry magic higher pay jobs will fall from the sky in Geelong and other affected centres.
3. Tony is referring penalty rates to the Productivity Commission so that he can say "They said to". He also stated that employees should be able to trade penalty rates away as long as they are no worse off. We saw what no worse off meant under Workchoices and it didn't mean more pay.
4. Just another stupid anti-union jibe from someone who should be in a union if they really do work in the Queensland Health Department.
5. Interest rates & freeing up of commonwealth land for development have nothing to do with the Federal Government. Interesting news.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 7:44:08pm
Gee what a long memory you have.
I did belong to a union for a while but resigned years ago when the union began to spend all the members money on campaigning for the ALP at state and federal level with the usual ALP lies.
Best thing I ever did.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 7:51:02pm
1. So you admit there is no policy
2. These would have occured even if ALP won the election. Please provide link to the ALP Jobs Plan they must have developed after 6 years in government. Throwing our money at failing businesses is not a Jobs Plan. Come on where is it ; we all saw these job losses coming
3. Why is the AWU led by Howes busy negotiating new deals with several companies trading penalty rates for other increased conditions at the moment etc
4. see other post . I resigned years ago as the union was spending the members money supporting the ALP.
5. Interest rates are set by the reserve bank
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DOSomething:
21 Feb 2014 9:17:23am
LABOR gets us talking about the future and what's possible for Australians. It's a conversation which engages all of its citizens.
More specifically:
NBN, pricing pollution, initiating equitable education funding (GONSKI), disability insurance scheme (NDIS), reform of financial services incl. to require transparency re advisor's commissions, breakthrough re China/Australia trade relations(Gillard). My School etc..
It's not that hard when you are fair-minded.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 11:18:12am
Read what I wrote.
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 11:24:52am
There are no reforms there Gonski and the NDIS are not implemented and the rest is normal public service fair for any government.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 12:05:31pm
cath, the reforms were there under Labor, the money was committed under Labor, but the Labor Government is no more. Now it's up this Government of incompetents to decide how to go about that and how to allocate the funding. What we can see so far is just a Razor Gang paranoia that will destroy the fabric of our society for no gain whatever. They have increased the debt not decreased it, unemployment is increasing under their mad policy of closing down industries, the costs of living are up... and Abbott and his gang have nowhere to hide....
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:06:32pm
Please tell where this money was committed under ALP?
The amounts in the forward estimates do not count.
When people talk of funding they mean the $30+ Billion these will cost after full implmentation at the end of the decade and which the ALP had no idea where to money would come from.
No doubt they would have just borrowed it.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:01:09pm
I guess we can call all Hockey's figures from his last budget BS as they are just forward estimates. Think before you type please, I know it hurts the brain and you have to hold your breath, but it it should be done even if only sparingly.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 7:53:26pm
Hockey has not brought down a budget yet. He does not until May. The country still functions under the last ALP budget
All Hockey released was the MYEFO from the disaster that was the last Gillard/Swan budget
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 4:32:25pm
"The amounts in the forward estimates do not count."... They count when the same Government is in charge, as they are committed to stick to their plan. They don't count when an Opposition says it backs the previous plans (NDIS, Gonski) but then they just show that they lied by changing their ideas to suit their real political agenda.
This Government hit the road borrowing from day one... what are you talking about. Complain with Abbott and Hockey if you dislike borrowing.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 7:57:29pm
Of course they were borrowing from day 1.
They have to borrow to pay the interest payments on the ALP $300 Bllion debt.
As the revenue is $47 Billion less then the ALP spent in the 2013/14 budget, what would you suggest they do to pay the interest - stop paying pensions etc ???
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A Pleb:
21 Feb 2014 12:13:39pm
Cath, despite their infighting, Labor did try to do something - NBN, Gonski, NDIS. If they are "normal public service fair for any government" and considering the Lib government is planning to water all the above, what the lib government is giving us? I understand a drop in wages to make Aus. more competitive and "everyone" doing their bit. But then I don't see how the gov. then allows massive increases in elec. bills, water, private insurance premiums and also keep all their perks and salaries? Or no attempt at slowly deflating the housing bubble? If the cost of living is so high, then for people to avoid poverty they need a decent salary.
Does "everyone" means us plebs only? Unfortunately for aus, some of the plebs can, and have, left the country and take all their tax-payer funded education and skills with them. I never read the "Lucky country", I think I should soon.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:08:08pm
Pity the ALP were so inept at implementation of any of them.
All disaster areas the Abbott government has to clean up.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:10:01pm
Libs are giving us a slower, costlier and later NBN than promised in the election with no cost/benefit analysis. The thing they cried about with the NBN.
Wanting to water down Medicare with co-payments and restrictions on bulk-billing. Where were these thought bubbles during the election.
All the way with Gonski and the NDIS until elected then triple backflips galore and a few forward flips from Pyne once his backflips were roared down.
Almost daily announcements about major job losses.
This Government if you can call it that is the most incompetent rabble since John Howard as Treasurer in a Fraser Government gave us 10% unemployment, 12% inflation and 20% interest rates at the same time. No other Government ever got 10, 10, 10. It takes a special breed of incompetent to do that.
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rusty cairns:
21 Feb 2014 4:54:56pm
Gday, ANdie,
You know mate I heard the same types of comments like you are making back in 1975, when just like last federal opposition at the time they told us only they could fix everything.
That opposition was made government but things didn't improve as they also had no real plans for the future only criticism of the past government and wanted to implement the same policies as their party had had in the past.
You do realise that not many governments have the fantastic world economic conditions that were enjoyed by the past Howard government, don't you? That being the longest period of almost total world growth since the rebuilding after the 2nd world war. China's economy was growing between 10 to 15% for example. It's not now unfortunately.
Gee mate, many of us workers are worried we will be 'liberated' from our jobs and we should be worried because we have a government that's plan for jobs is cut business taxes and hope.
Maybe 'hope' should be replace by ' pray'.
If you are a worker, maybe we may meet with shovels in our hands constructing roads that few will be able to afford the cars and the cars expenses to drive on because we will be earning much lower wages.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 8:07:59pm
The Howard government started governing with their hands tied behind their back because of the loss of AAA ratings by Hawke government, the $10 Billion deficit and $96 Billion debt left by Hawke and Keating.
The peak of the mining boom was in the Rudd/Gillard era with record prices and record volumes.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 3:58:15pm
Why have the Libs never committed to any of the business as usual decisions until Labor initiated them?
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:10:59pm
"LABOR gets us talking about the future and what's possible for Australians. It's a conversation which engages all of its citizens."
Yes that is what Labor is good at talking not much good at implementing things though.That is why Australians are happy with our new government they are getting on with the job not just talking about it.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 12:49:08pm
"Australians are happy with our new government they are getting on with the job"... and what is that they are doing exactly, EVAN? Closing down entire industry sectors? Is that the job they proposed they would get on with? Increasing the costs of visits to the doctor? Closing down agricultural industries in the bush? Getting the second most important city in Victoria, Geelong, down to its knees? Underfunding public schools? And a paranoid war against the Unions with the objective of "freeing" the Labor market from the annoying shackles of better salaries and work conditions?.... and you think that "Australians are happy"? Really?
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 2:05:57pm
No pain no gain Alpo.Some times you need to go on a diet if you don't you could die.Now diets are painfull but if the alternative is death then you don't have much choice do you.
The government found a lot of cancer in the patient Australia when it came to office and is working through removing it but it is a long process but there are signs the patient may live.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 4:36:52pm
EVAN, this a Government of all pain and no gain. They should go urgently onto a diet of truthfulness and honesty. Then I recommend a big cup of correct priorities tea, especially the Australian brand: "Economy for the People", not the imported one "The People for the Economy".
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magb1:
21 Feb 2014 1:46:11pm
Well said DOSomething - Labor also has tried to implement action (although maybe not quite enough) on our biggest challenge - Climate change. Unfortunately, Tony and his cronies are intent on destroying any legacy of Labor's reforms. LNP has no vision, only bogan slogans for the easily duped.
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Honest Johnny:
21 Feb 2014 11:41:26am
gbe, you really don't know much do you?
As an accountant who works everyday with many small businesses, I can say the MRRT is a huge benefit to a far greater number of Australians (ie those employed by small businesses) than it is to the smaller number employed by mining companies). With the MRRT comes a number of reforms to help small business. For example, Tax-loss carry-back, $6,000 instant asset write-off, accelerated depreciation etc. When/if the MRRT is repealed, it will immediately help mining companies BUT the losers will be the small businesses across the country, who employ the majority of Australians, who are currently accessing the reforms. They will do it more tough.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 1:41:27pm
With the little I do know I understand what your claiming as major reform would not effect many.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:12:32pm
Only 3 million small businesses, not that many really eh?
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Honest Johnny:
21 Feb 2014 5:24:11pm
That's a mindless comment gbe. You don't get it do you? The majority of working Australians are employed by small and medium businesses, all benefiting from the MRRT reforms. Those employed by the mining companies who have to pay the mining tax are a tiny fraction of that.
The repeal of the MRRT is ideologically driven nonsense pandering to the interests of the large Mining companies, who (as we saw recently with BHP Billiton) are still raking in the billions. The large majority of companies (small to medium businesses) and the people they employ, will be disadvantaged by its repeal. I know, I do their tax!
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 12:17:50pm
Despite the irrational posturing of Abbott and co, the carbon trading scheme (yes, with fixed price introductory period) was a great achievement and is currently benefiting all Australians.
Keeping the CPRS and extending it to all fossil fuels would be of long lasting benefit to all of us.
Pity Abbott has hitched his horse to the denial of science. If he hadn't, we'd all be better off.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:10:29pm
Please explain how the carbon tax is benefiting everyone.
Most people would not regard the increases in their energy bills as a benefit.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 1:50:09pm
Andie, the increase in energy bills was pre-compensated for by a tax cut. The carbon pricing scheme did not cost you anything.
The increased electricity price was then an opportunity for you to spend some money on better equipment to save money over the long run.
And that just the selfish "what's in it for me" aspect of this beneficial scheme.
The most useful part is that it harnesses individual selfishness to drive an overall reduction in fossil fuel usage, which reduces our carbon emissions which helps in our effort to stabilise the long term global climate.
In short, the so-called "carbon tax" is the best thing our political classes introduced in the last decade or so. The lack of understanding surrounding it is a crying shame.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:34:03pm
NO they were not as Iand may more paid more income tax . Read posts above to get the truth of the rate changes.
Gee a $7 BILLION tax that reduces emissions by 0.3% ! Whacky do!
And that fall in emissions was more related to high polluting industries closing then the carbon tax
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 1:54:03pm
ANdie, stop lying like your leader Tony Abbott does all the time. The increase in the electricity bills have very, very little to do with carbon pricing. The electricity companies are ripping off consumers with the alleged excuse to renovate power lines and infrastructure and you are supporting them.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:39:24pm
Why are ther renovating power lines and infrastructure -
1. because of the decades ALP governments ripped hundred of thousands of dollars out of them like the Beattie/Bligh governments in QLD meaning no money for maintenance
2. related to 1 many lines are not able to cope with the very INTERMITENT power fed into the system from all those government subsidised solar panels
3. Aren't the electricity prices for all areas set by government including the Rudd/Gillard governments?
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 3:03:51pm
Increase in energy bills have very little if anything to do with carbon pricing. The 2013 election is over, Abbott became PM, no need to lie about that now, jus tell the truth.
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Andie:
21 Feb 2014 8:10:47pm
Yes Abbott won with a mandate to abolish the carbon tax.
BShorten and his clowns are obstructing the government carrying out the policies they were elected to do.
Just tell the truth
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:17:51pm
Please explain how direct action is going to cost less per person than an ETS. Because Tony has magic on his side?
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Honest Johnny:
21 Feb 2014 2:18:13pm
Very short-term thinking there ANdie, the kind of guy who values a Government by how much money it can put in your wallet. There are many other ways, better ways a government can be of benefit. I value the direction and vision a government has for the benefit of society as a whole. The price on carbon is helping bring about long-term structural change in industry and in the economy that Australia's future cannot survive without. Such long-term policy direction in the context of a three year political cycle, and oppositions who take the lazy way out by stirring up fear and ignorance, a hostile media, and short-term thinkers with blinkers on, was always going to be hard. But to recognise that despite this, it is what the future of our country needs, takes courage and vision and for that they deserve our respect. You and I won't see a benefit in our electricity bill or wallet in our lifetime, but future generations will look back on this policy as one of the early ways our country dealt with the change to a clean energy economy. Those leaders who had the vision will be remembered kindly be history, those who sought to tear it down will be forgotten.
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Lachlan:
21 Feb 2014 1:21:54pm
It is rather unfair to talk of the reforms they completed. The responsible way to introduce major reforms is over periods longer than election cycles, to avoid unstabilizing many systems.
Moreover, they were fighting a very hostile senate that stopped most of the reforms from being implemented quickly.
Perhaps we should talk of the reforms they *would* have completed had it not been for an opposition that preferred to oppose than help Australia.
If they had been allowed to introduce a proper MRRT, the dollar would have been lower and the manufacturing industry would not be in such dire straits.
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Rhys:
21 Feb 2014 5:44:10pm
Funny that. I thought the same about Howard/Costello. No real achievements, just lots of pats on the back.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:04:21pm
We will have to wait and see but it will provide plenty of grist for The Drum.
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bide and fecht:
21 Feb 2014 7:19:19am
So why do they need this ammunition? If they've been elected with the mandate they've so often reminded us....why aren't they governing instead of attempting to bury the opposition? If they spent as much time on responses to real issues instead of peripherals we'd be in a much better place. I don't have a great deal of confidence about the years ahead.
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Iswide:
21 Feb 2014 7:42:47am
bide and fecht: "So why do they need this ammunition?"
Perhaps thed plans they haveinstore for Australia will so unpopular that they have to discredit the Opposition as much as possible.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:13:23pm
You could be right but as the saying goes no pain no gain.
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Iswide:
21 Feb 2014 2:44:36pm
EVAN, but who gets the pain and who gets the gain? It might wll be different groups and not based on fairness or equity.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 3:51:28pm
EVAN, what Hockey and Abbott have in store is all pain no gain. This gang is going to inflict completely unnecessary pain on the People of Australia with no purpose whatever, as they will be booted out on the first occasion.
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 8:25:23am
"Why do they need this ammunition"?
You just need to look at the last 3 years b&f. Abbott won an election not by putting forward a feasible, positive policy platform embraced by the Australian public, but by simply trashing the Labor brand.
That's why, in government, the Coalition still looks and sounds like an Opposition. It is only by Labor looking dreadful that the Coalition is viable.
The negativity and tribal politics has to continue because the only way the Coalition can govern is by default.
I'm taking a punt here, but I honestly don't think most voters want the lowest paid to take a 40% pay cut, or for public health policy to be determined by junk-food lobby groups, or for the coal industry to write environmental policy, or for foreign media moguls to determine media policy, or for proven ideologues to decide what our children learn in school, or for the nationwide fast-tracking of inequity.
They're not going to vote for that, unless they believe to not do so would be to vote for something worse.
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A happy little debunker:
21 Feb 2014 9:21:40am
Try as I might,
I do not see the Government as focused on Bill Shorten, as the last one was on Tony Abbott.
Sure they might be looking at Unions, corruption and the rest - but the distinct lack of focus on Labor leadership is a stark contrast to Labors last 4 years!
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Simon:
21 Feb 2014 10:43:31am
Happy no one needs to focus on Bill Shorten the coalition knows that the Australian people realise that Bill shorten suffers from Small Man Syndrome it is so off-putting that it makes him unelectable.
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 11:52:55am
"Small Man Syndrome"?
You might be onto something, Simon. It could certainly go some way to explain George W. Bush, John Howard, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Napoleon, Hitler and Franco.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 5:42:21pm
Mark James,
George W Bush was nearly 6 foot tall (182 cm) and John Howard was a fraction above average (176cm vs 175.6 cm average height.) Not exactly small men.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 12:10:26pm
"Bill shorten suffers from Small Man Syndrome".... Simon, if that's your criterion to decide how to vote, I deduce that you have a strong preference for politicians with Flapping-Ear-Lobes-Body-Distorted Syndrome?... Very strange priority, very strange indeed.
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Tombowler:
21 Feb 2014 9:51:00am
It's always funny how when side A wins government it's because an intelligent and engaged population made a collective decision to approve their policies for the betterment of the nation, whereas when side B wins it is because they are fearful mouthbreathers collectively duped by means most foul and underhanded. Stunningly, proponents of each side have no trouble with the intellect of the electorate swinging wildly in relatively few years.
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 11:14:57am
You're not far off the mark, Tombowler. Even in 2007, although I don't think Rudd and Labor were as relentlessly negative as Abbott in Opposition, they pretty much got elected on a negative reaction to WorkChoices.
Rudd had a brighter, sunnier persona than Howard, and carried some motherhood statements with him about new beginings and inclusiveness, but essentially it was the same old.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:21:14pm
"Rudd had a brighter, sunnier persona than Howard, and carried some motherhood statements with him about new beginings and inclusiveness, but essentially it was the same old."
It was only after he was elected we found out that ,to quote a famous Labor leader,he was all tip and no iceberg.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:20:29pm
I thought that John Hewson made a very similar comment to that about Tony Abbott.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:16:56pm
" It is only by Labor looking dreadful that the Coalition is viable."
And Labor do looking dreadful so well that the government has such an easy job.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 12:23:00pm
If the Liberals are only in power because Labor is so dreadful at this point, that is still a valid reason to vote for this government. The argument that the government has no policies is up there with the 'rule by slogan' thing as nonsense. The government went to the election with headline promises to stop the boats, get rid of the carbon and mining taxes, and reduce debt. We know from the election result and other polling that this 'platform (is) embraced by the Australian public'. The government has so far been successful in stopping the boats, and it set up processes to identify and cut waste that will be manifest in the budget. Where government policy with a clear mandate hasn't been' feasible', it is because the opposition is blocking it. Labor is thwarting the will of the people in not supporting the removal of carbon and mining taxes. Further, it is against any substantial inquiry into the corrupt union movement. There is no policy to cut low paying wages by 40 percent. Mind you, a few overpaid unionised manufacturing workers should take a haircut. I am having a chuckle that you think children aren't immersed in Leftist ideology at school - Aboriginal maths?
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 1:49:58pm
No, seriously APM, it's actually quite sweet that you trust, without question, everything a political party tells you, and that you're prepared to damn everything that isn't included in the Coalition syllabus as "Leftist".
Now, as far as mandates are concerned, here is what your Tony Abbott said on the 5th December 2007:
"[Brendan] Nelson is right to resist the intellectual bullying inherent in talk of 'mandates'. The elected Opposition is no less entitled than the elected Government to exercise its political judgment and to try to keep its election commitments."
Does that make Abbott a "Leftist" or a "hypocrite" in your book? Perhaps both?
And talking of hypocrites, how about Abbott demanding manufacturers reduce their below-average-wage by 40%?
Abbott, of course, has been sucking off the public teat for most of his life, has claimed taxpayer funds to attend his friend's wedding and PR-driven charity events, and is currently taking home close to $500,000 while complaining about a "budget emergency".
You don't think perhaps Abbott shoulld lead by example and take a haircut himself before demanding the same of others?
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 2:11:14pm
That whole paragraph about what you claim the government is doing does not remotely describe anything that is happening in this world. Spin on top just making stuff up. Overreach. Your passion has overwhelmed your senses.
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 4:57:08pm
And yet you're not able to say why it isn't so, APM?
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:13:10pm
They would be governing more if the ALP would stop their negativity and obstruction and pass the government Bills sitting in the Senate.
Why BShorten and co are so negative and obstructionist they won't even pass Bills relating to the policies the ALP took to the election!!!
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:22:47pm
They learnt well from the Libs didn't they, complaing because they are using the Abbott playbook, that would be hypocrisy wouldn't it?
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 4:41:26pm
ANdie, what's the problem of getting the PUP and the other minor parties on board? It should be easy for Abbott, shouldn't it? C'mon we all want to see Abbott's legendary negotiating skills in action, real action. But if he is chicken and wants Labor to come on board, then I suggest that he scraps his crappy plan and adopts the ETS..... Tell him.
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GrumpiSkeptic:
21 Feb 2014 5:30:27pm
bide and fecht
Yes, it is called diversion tactics. I don't believe the LNP has a coherent set of policies to guide this nation back from the brink of a Black-hole plague. It is all very cute for Joe and Tony to call wolf, sorry, Black-holes, but to heal these Black-holes required serious policies. So far, all we ever heard of are Royal Commissions, and more of them!
Mind you, to kill off the unions is probably the uber priority. The LNP's hatred of the unions is not news. We heard it in the parliaments, on the radio, and our TV screens. Now it is "pay-back time".
To them, unions are the evil roots that kept the ALP alive. The sooner they got cut off, the sooner the ALP will die.
Mind you, all the red herrings, ie. Royal Commissions, can only sustain the LNP for a year or more. Sooner or later, they still have the unresolved issues like jobs, manufacturing, etc. to deal with. Meanwhile, they are under a huge pile of more urgent paper work to do with Royal Commissions.
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Mervo:
21 Feb 2014 7:26:10am
The big problem that the present government faces is the fact that they are not creating any jobs, in fact they are loosing major employers and industries at an alarming rate in the manufacturing sector. While they deny any public support for our vulnerable manufacturing sector, they are offering our hard-earned money to farmers, grain growers, beef producers and so on. Also, they are offering our money to large corporations such as the miners, as an incentive to reduce their pollution impacts. When the Emissions Tax is scrapped by a more friendly Senate, that is. So these handouts, while not creating any jobs may appease some WA voters for a while, until the full impact of the shrinkage of our neglected national economy prevails. More enquiries and Royal Commissions will not be able to distract from that outcome.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:28:39pm
Maybe Mervo we have to go through this adjustment.Nobody likes going to the doctor or dentist but we all know that if we don't we will be worse off until it becomes an emergency.No where have I heard that recently.
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Pete:
21 Feb 2014 7:31:31am
The Coalition's publicly threatening everything up to and including Medicare and you really think the Carbon Tax is going to be the main game? Mate, you're dreaming.
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Snake:
21 Feb 2014 8:16:19am
Pete -
In WA, where no one thinks it's at all weird when Gina Reinhardt stands on the back of a ute crying poor and screaming "Axe The Tax!"... unfortunately, yes. I suspect the carbon tax will play there.
Just remember, fifty percent of all people fall to the left of the IQ bell curve.
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peter of mitcham:
21 Feb 2014 9:12:22am
I wonder how you got your handle, snake? What exactly are you saying about Western Australians? I did a nationwide programme on mature aged workers and we got the best response from WA people. They were thoughtful, intelligent, understanding. I don't know where you get that attitude, snakey? Maybe you should hiss off.
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Pert:
21 Feb 2014 5:42:41pm
Really?
Ask the locals in mining areas who are not engaged with mining about not being able to afford things like housing or people to staff their businesses. Ask them what they think about the royalties for regions programs and multinational mining concerns stretching ageing and insufficient infrastructure to breaking point.
Western Australians are smart enough to realise that the pittance they get paid in royalties by the likes of Gina have not kept pace with the continued record profits enjoyed by big mining - the MRRT at least addressed this! Do you think that those in WA aren't savvy enough to realise that $20 odd million spent in an advertising smear campaign by the MRC,in relation to the MRRT, saved a handful of very privileged Australian's (and foreign owners) billions of dollars that would have otherwise been returned to us?
Your claim that Western Australian's have sympathy for the likes of Gina and Co are absurd - it's like saying that we enjoyed Gina's subsequent poetic stylings and her suggestion that we should make like the Africans and be prepared to work for $2 a day.
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virgil:
21 Feb 2014 8:22:55am
I agree that the carbon tax has been downgraded to a small issue since the election, and that most people were comfortable with it anyway. The last election was about punishing Labor not endorsing the LNP, and now voters are more worried about other issues like Medicare, education and the next budget.
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GoodLaff:
21 Feb 2014 9:08:00am
Good point virgil. The election timing could make it difficult for Joe Hockey to drip feed media leaks of any unpopular measures prior to his budget night speech. A Costello tactic that was embraced by Swan to help influence positive headlines of the budget.
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Jay Somasundaram:
21 Feb 2014 7:32:14am
Yes. The Libs have become really good at aggressive propaganda, and Labor is demoralised and ineffective.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 8:38:06am
Labor will remain 'demoralised and ineffective' until they change the key policies that saw them defeated, and disown the past six years of government. I see no reflection at all. History is not going to be kind to the Gillard/Rudd years that will be seen as a lowpoint of good effective governance, and they can't win the next election so they might as well have bit of a civil war now about what their core principles should be and who they should represent. Shorten is too mired in the fossilised union culture and past leadership dramas. Find a cleanskin.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 9:15:01am
"Labor is demoralised and ineffective"..
Hi Jay and APM,
Yes, you do read concepts like that every day in the Murdoch press. But last time I saw Labor People on TV, I think it was in the Qld electorate of Griffith, they were pretty happy and demonstrated to be quite effective. You may watch a video from Google of Bill Shorten's speech delivered yesterday at the Melbourne Press Club... frankly, it's not a speech of a "demoralised" and "ineffective" leader.... but hey, go ahead, next appointment is in WA.... Happy "demoralisation"....
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 11:30:05am
I think labor expected to do much better in one of their safest Queensland seats however they went close to loosing how demoralising is that the seat is now marginal at best.
I predict bill Shorten will be gone in six months.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 12:14:50pm
cath,
Abbott hoped to control the Senate, but he doesn't, yet the Coalition were winners at the last Federal election... do you think that they are "demoralised"?.... I think that you are just trying a bit too hard to cheer yourself up. That's fine, optimism is a very good thing. Just try to avoid... delusion.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 3:15:20pm
Alpo: Abbott could not give a toss about control of the senate he will blame Labor for the carbon tax all the way into his second term I cam smell another labor back flip coming in the senate.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 5:50:29pm
gbe,
The People couldn't give a toss about Abbott's "carbon tax" lie and saga. They will tell him: we gave you the vote to fix what you said was a Labor-wreaked economy leading to job losses and we believed you. You lied to us, we are worse off now than we were three years ago. Bye bye Tony!... Pretty simple really.
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Jay Somasundaram:
21 Feb 2014 11:35:59am
Thank you for proposing the video.
But, watching the video, Shorten comes across as tired and energyless. I agree, in principle, with his policy of collaboration, but it will only work if the Libs see value in collaborating with Labor - and there is no value to them.
Labor needs to take a lesson from Malcolm Fraser's attack in the SMH.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 1:05:53pm
"But, watching the video, Shorten comes across as tired and energyless."... Actually, that's an interesting point Jay. I agree that the whole body posture, tone of voice, speech delivery, etc. of Shorten is very different from the robotic, tense, aggressive, violence-hardly-contained stance of Tony Abbott. I would strongly recommend that Shorten gets slightly more combative and lively. Although I wouldn't like him to morph into somebody he is obviously not (we may have had enough of politician-cum-actor characters for a generation). But on the positive side his demeanour is conducive to the conciliatory and cooperative stance that the People may probably want as soon as the aggressive Abbott is booted out.
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burke:
21 Feb 2014 12:11:09pm
Bill Shorthouse made a speech. You liked it. Was it relevant to anything?
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 1:07:26pm
"Was it relevant to anything?"... Watch the video and judge by yourself...
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 1:12:13pm
burke, what's with misspelling "Bill Shorten"? Is it some attempt to dump on short people?
Howard was short. Are you going to dig up his political corpse and jump on it?
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 3:20:06pm
John Howard is not short either is Bill Shorten they are average hight for their respective generations.
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Turning Chinese:
21 Feb 2014 6:04:30pm
He never answered the questions about CT when asked.He's headed for a car crash come this Royal Commission,
The opposition benches might need cardboard cut-outs come the end of the witch hunt.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:20:12pm
No it was in the SMH with the Neilsen poll this week.
Fastest fall in approval rating by a leader ever as BShoten popularity plunged.
Wonder how big a role Shorten will pay in the Tas and Vic elections. He had a very high profile in Griffith but the ALP lost votes when they expected it would be a shoe in. How demoralising is that.
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 3:25:24pm
Yes the gossip I hear from a reliable source on the clerical front is there is sharpening of the knives under way the stumbling block apparently is his replacement is not Tanya.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:30:53pm
Not as demoralising as for the Libs, a former President of the AMA standing as candidate against an unknown Labor candidate and they could not win the seat. As Glasson admitted, his early support of the $6 bulk billing co-payment cost him dearly.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 12:30:44pm
On the contrary, history will treat Gillard's leadership in a minority government situation well. It really was a shining moment for democracy.
History will treat the knifing of Rudd and the long excruciating revenge of Rudd quite poorly though, because this horrible farce eclipsed the successes of the Gillard minority government and made it difficult for people to appreciate how well things were being managed despite difficult times.
You're probably right about Shorten. He was in this up to his neck. Labor needs new untainted leadership.
As for how Abbott will be judged? Hard to tell, but I predict he will be seen as the Great Destroyer. His aim to destroy worker entitlements, Australia's manufacturing capability and our environment is obvious to some of us right now, but will be clear in the historical record once he has succeeded.
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The nose:
21 Feb 2014 7:33:23am
Tony Abbott knows he has to tread softly, softly, as far as implementing the hidden policy agendas of the coalition, till after the WA elections.
Unfortunately for Abbott his backers are getting impatient, they know they have only a short window of opportunity to get the bad medicine out of the way, before it has a detrimental affect on their chances at the next election.
We have already seen numerous examples of announcement's being made and Abbott furiously back paddling, when there is a adverse reaction, an example of that in recent days is Medicare, where we see the usual kite flying tactic used and then Abbott in denial, claiming that he is the best friend of Medicare.
What is it with Abbott, and his pre adolescent, best friend crap, when is he going to start using adult language?
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 7:37:15am
I hope that the good citizens of WA truly send a clear message to Abbott! Note Barrie, that a swing in favour of Labor and Greens in WA will clearly show that all this story about the "carbon tax" is just a fossil of the old Liberal electoral propaganda (tainted by the Coalition lies I recently refreshed in posts to a Jonathan Green's article), and it has completely lost any power of political swing. If the voters want to take "taxes" into consideration, whether it is for this WA vote, or the SA state vote, or the Tassy state vote or, later, the Vic state vote it's the Abbott Government planned new 20% TAX on your visits to the GP (cost of a visit to the GP is $30 and the plan is to charge you $6) that they should consider. Now, that's a TAX... and there is no compensation whatever, and it affects everyone. But that's nothing compared to the real issue voters in WA and SA and TAS and VIC will be confronted with, and that's the issue of Jobs, Unemployment, Costs of Living. Unemployment is increasing as it is the true (real, effective) cost of living.... May their god save the Coalition... because the People of Australia won't, they owe this Government nothing!
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Forrest Gardener:
21 Feb 2014 9:00:56am
Alpo, it may come as a surprise to you, but voters have minds of their own. You make an unfortunate blunder when you assume that everybody frames the issues in the hateful terms you do.
A very small minority are sucked into the politics of hate the way the Labor Fan Club is here on their ABC. This is not the real world.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 9:40:36am
Forrest, if you believe that I can get straight into the mind of all Australians and change their opinions, then I can only thank you for your trust in my argumentative capabilities. I hope they are also useful to you.
I don't have the word hate in my vocabulary, I don't hate anyone as you obviously refuse to see, I love everyone and I love this country so much that I cannot remain in silence when I see her in peril. Whereas in your posts you seem to be rather blind, or is it biased-partisan?... Just let us know.
Ah, btw, and what would you know exactly about the "real world", if I may ask?
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A happy little debunker:
21 Feb 2014 9:33:12am
Alpo,
With a 'medicare' levy set to expand from 1% to 2.5% and still not being enough to pay for equitable universal health care - anyone would be a fool to rule out measures that could alleviate the hit on the public purse - without raising further taxes from you.
Amongst the suggestions is the $6 co-payment, also in the mix is a penalty on those earning $200 000+ per annum.
I'm pretty sure the private health care rebate will be looked at as well.
What can you suggest - rather than being just a nay-sayer?
People who live in glass houses & throw stones usually need more health care, because of the Cut, Cut, Cuts!
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Merlin 23:
21 Feb 2014 9:35:04am
Gee Alpo - so many cuts. Maybe because they are (trying) to repay a $400b debt left by your precious Labor Party. And don't quote the GFC at me.
Someone has to pay back the debt....
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JohnC:
21 Feb 2014 7:39:31am
Wall to wall conservative state governments, climate change deniers, stop the boats at any price, end of the age of entitlements including Medicare indeed the Australian electorate will have much to be proud of. If this comes to pass as predicted we will enter a long dark age as we retreat into an unequal and unfair society. What does our national anthem say? "For we are young and free".....just needs some slight amendments, perhaps substituting "For we are old and scared".
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Desert Woman:
21 Feb 2014 8:25:56am
It will be 'old, scared and sick'. If a govt cannot look after its people, their most basic requirements of health, food and water, they don't deserve to be anywhere near power.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:41:07pm
" If a govt cannot look after its people, their most basic requirements of health, food and water, they don't deserve to be anywhere near power."
So DW you would support an increase in the GST to say 25% and I guess you support Mr Abbott refusing handouts to uncompetitive industry that will save us billions that can go to health,food and water.Your call.
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Desert Woman:
21 Feb 2014 1:21:27pm
I don't support regressive taxation Evan and I certainly don't support the govt refusing a small grant to help our last food processor update. They can hand $ out to farmers but they can't make it rain. Eastern Oz is forecast to become drier because of climate instability but they won't do anything about that.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 2:16:13pm
"Eastern Oz is forecast to become drier because of climate instability"
And sometimes the forcasts are wrong.Does.The rain that does fall will not fill our dams,or some such,ring any bells.
Its no drier now than it was during the federation drought.But then again we all know climate change only started in 1979 don't we.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 4:36:49pm
"help our last food processor update. "
Could that last food processor be the one owned by a very large profitable international company that might want to shut down that last food processor but does not want to be the one seen doing it and so wants to extort money out of the Australian tax payer on the pretext of not being able to afford to carry out the needed upgrade of said food processor.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 5:49:04pm
The main reason that they are handing out relief funds to farmers is that many of them were financially hamstrung by the ALP's overnight banning of live exports to Indonesia. In addition, the way the farmers receive funding is that they are made eligible for newstart payments as normally they fail the asset test due to being asset rich with the property being worth millions but cash flow poor with large debts that overhang from bad years and which in a lot of cases in the north of Australia, debts due to bad government decisions which basically took some farmers entire market away. In addition, they make available low interest loans at the RBA's cash rate which are repaid.
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Forrest Gardener:
21 Feb 2014 9:04:41am
JC, the biggest problem facing Australian governments is affordability. Unfortunately, Labor spent not only the income it had, but the next two or three generations income as well.
It will be a long time before Australia will again be in a position for such a pointless splurge.
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JohnC:
21 Feb 2014 10:23:43am
@Forrest Gardener:
Forrest if you really believe that the biggest problem facing Australian governments is affordability then you must also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. As for spending the income of the next two or three generations as well, try factoring in the projected growth in our population and resultant income over that term. Try dividing todays net debt by 21million people and then re-divide it by a projected 34miilion people to get the level of burden per person that you are fretting about. Australia's future budget and balance sheet will grow exponentially at numbers that we can only speculate on and will bear little resemblance to todays fiscal circumstances.
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Waterloo Sunset:
21 Feb 2014 1:07:07pm
Revenue doesn't grow unless exports do: foreign revenue.
20 million, or 40 million people, will only be sharing the same amount of encapsulated money. And judging by other countries, migrants will soon soak up all of the lower paid service jobs because they are willing to work for less pay.
There's nothing wrong in that of course, and if you want to see a microcosm of that, go to Europe and The US.
Essentially, what will happen is that the first citizens become over qualified and don't want to do the jobs that others will do. The welfare payments then become unmanageable.
The answer is that the over qualified should really work in Bic Mac and KF, I suppose, if they want wages.
Actually, until we get some sort of population control and sensibility about importing humans to countries, we deserve everything that we get. Pollution, the lot.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 1:13:10pm
JohnC: Quite an assumption I know labor loves to operated on forward estimates that's why they are so fiscally incompetent. Remember the watch my lips surplus that turned into a 300 billion deficit.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:58:05pm
It must be the height of competence to turn a $30bil deficit into a $47bil deficit this year and add $370 bil to the nation's credit card debt in just 4 years time.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 4:34:41pm
Then why are we wasting $10+ billion on Operation Shonky Orders, Nauru and Manus Island when they could be processed onshore for under $1 billion
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Peter:
21 Feb 2014 7:46:37am
I'd rather pay some minor passed on carbon tax and have companies compete to reduce their tax through cutting emissions than have Abbott and his bright sparks hand over billions direct to polluting companies, PLUS billions ongoing to help farmers pretend the changing drier weather is 'nothing to do with global warming''.
Stupidity compounded really that Australians still believe the Abbott government is 'economically competent'. LOL.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 12:47:48pm
Yes, it's a sad reflection on the intellect of the electorate that the smears against such a straightforward environmental policy have been accepted as truth. It's a more telling indictment of our education system than any of the faux "oh my lord the maths rankings have fallen" panics you see lately, or that tragic conservative "our education system isn't patriotic enough" nonsense that has put the national curriculum under the microscope.
Another thing to note is that Greg Hunt is smart enough to know that he's working against the interests of all of us by dismantling renewable energy schemes, closing down independent climate advisory groups and trying to remove the existing carbon price. He was in favour of market based pollution reduction schemes in his 1990 thesis but changed his mind when Abbott told him to. You can see he doesn't believe a word he says every time he appears on TV. It's sad to see.
We should keep and extend the CPRS (which people mislabel as the "carbon tax"). The world's economy depends on responsible actions such as pricing carbon and subsidising anyone moving to carbon neutrality.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 12:48:07pm
"the changing drier weather is 'nothing to do with global warming''.
Have you got some data to back that up Peter or just the shrill words of some alarmist climate scientist.Once upon a time for a day to be included as part of a heatwave it had to be above 100F now it only needs to be above 35C.35C is not 100F
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 1:54:37pm
Not sure which way you are jumping, Evan, but climate scientists are not "shrill" or "alarmist", but instead are professional and diligent.
The science is clear. Our response is muddled. We should do our best to de-carbonise the economy and if we act fast enough we'll still have an economy left at the end.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 4:45:55pm
"but climate scientists are not "shrill" or "alarmist",
Oh I don't know Will Steffin,Mathew England,David Karoly and Tim Flannery come to mind.
And Richard Lindzen of course is a dupe of the oil companies.
"We should do our best to de-carbonise the economy and if we act fast enough we'll still have an economy left at the end."
And if we end up with a smoking wreck and no global warming.Then what?.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 7:46:41pm
Evan, there's no way that even emergency level (i.e. war footing style) de-carbonisation would wreck the economy. If we did this and there was suddenly no global warming, then we'd just have cleaner air and some high tech industries as a consolation. The actual cost is low to everyone except coal miners. You just have to somehow stop them running the government.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 5:43:59pm
So you now agree the science is clear - there has been a hiatus in warming since 1998?
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 7:56:36pm
Andie, you have been misinformed. Or perhaps you delight in being deceived. Either way, I don't have room in this forum to teach you climate science.
Luckily, you can find the IPCC's report "Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis" here: http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1
It is written by scientists and distils the knowledge of thousands of experts. Read it and be enlightened.
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MCW:
21 Feb 2014 7:47:26am
It's nice, although sometimes a little tiresome, to read the comments from the parochial fools about whether this party or this party is better or worse. APM thinks that Labor governments alone hold onto power for power's sake. Zany thinks that there is a massive difference between the 'mad' policies of Abbott and the opposition policies.
How have you people been tricked into supporting one side over the other, or thinking that there is a massive difference between the two? People do tend to use new information to justify their own existing prejudices, but this blog is seriously warped - massive 'contests of ideas' over minute policy differences between the parties.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 8:40:11am
Hi MCW,
Thanks for your post. May I ask what's your usual leaning in your vote? And if you tend to lodge a protest vote, what's exactly that you expect from your ideal Government?
I am just trying to help you provide a more constructive contribution.
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JohnC:
21 Feb 2014 8:45:59am
@MCW:
Tricked into thinking there is a massive difference between the two? No trick really, there is a massive difference between the two. One has policies that are restrictive and authoritarian leading to an unequal and divided society, one has policies that seek to maintain an equal and egalitarian society. I will leave it to you to work out which one is which.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 7:52:16am
I see little evidence of a connection between the carbon tax and manufacturing closing up. I do see a connection between free trade agreements, lack of assistance from the federal government and the closure of companies.
Do any of you in the media ever think of doing your homework and look at what is really happening?
Alcoa for instance. THE major reason for closure was the glut of aluminium on the world's market, the government support other companies receive overseas, the need to upgrade ageing equipment but most of all the core problem is a tiny Australia population that is spread out over a large area with poor infrastructure.
If you as a journalist continue to let yourself be spoon fed LNP nonsense over the actual condition of manufacturing we will never establish industries that are capable of competing on the world stage.
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Ben the lawyer:
21 Feb 2014 8:37:08am
'I see little evidence of a connection between the carbon tax and manufacturing closing up.'
There are none so blind...
'lack of assistance from the federal government'
How much money from productive businesses should go to unproductive, uncompetitive businesses? Just amounts and length of time for funding please. Should be pretty easy - if you support it, you must have thought about it in depth...
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 9:08:27am
"How much money from productive businesses should go to unproductive, uncompetitive businesses?"... Ben, let's start by eliminating tax concessions and closing down tax minimisation loopholes and also direct and indirect help from State or Federal
governments and let's see how "productive" those businesses of yours really are.... It's about time that you guys stop the hypocrisy.
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 11:39:57am
You just don't get it do you every tax impost on business is passed on it makes it harder for any business to turn a profit no profit no business no jobs.
And don't get me started on Keating's print your own money 4 bank policy.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 12:57:28pm
Nor do you seem to understand.
When Australian businesses go up against those from overseas they do so at a disadvantage.
First off the worker in Australia is paid a decent salary, I think we are around the fourth or fifth best paid in the world. A worker in say China or South Korea or any other Asian country does not have the benefits that an Australian does.
So are you willing to take a pay cut or if you are in business are you willing to make less profit because remember when you cut the salaries of the people that buy your products they will spend less at your business.
Second off there is a matter of population and access to customers. Australia with its small population that is spread over a very large area is at a disadvantage to say China where they have a massive population within a relatively small landmass.
Third there is access to other countries markets. South Korea is very close to some massive well healed countries so distribution costs would be much lower there then for us.
We could go on and on about this but in my opinion there is no such thing as Fair Trade Agreements because not all factors are or can be considered to make such agreements fair.
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 1:23:29pm
Yank it: As usual you have missed the point entirely there is no pay cut if you tax a business into oblivion because there is no job that is what the carbon tax has done and people here want to add to add more tax.
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maddoga:
21 Feb 2014 4:28:58pm
Mortan;
Do youself a favour and watch Q&A Christine Lagarrde could teach you how to think, My oppinion is she has more brains in her little toe than the complete membership of the LNP including you!
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 5:02:04pm
Why aren't Whyalla and Gladstone wiped out like Tony predicted?
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 5:50:17pm
Once again YOU miss my point.
First off Alcoa did not close because of the carbon tax they said so and independent analysis of the situation confirm this. The carbon tax was actually a benefit to that company do your research and you will find that to be the case.
What has been totally missed by you and other is that the tax was arranged in such a manner that large polluting companies can actually make a profit if they arrange their business properly.
Again my statement is if you cut back on wages that impacts not just on the individual but everyone it widens the divide of have's and have not's. Unless you are in the 1% your lifestyle is also likely to be affected.
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 5:00:37pm
Howard had 11 years to change the 4 bank policy, obviously a complete waste of space as a Prime Minister.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 1:02:39pm
So Alpo we should keep your uncompetitive industry but shut down you opponents industry or should we keep all uncompetitive industry or close all uncompetitive industry.Your all.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 2:16:46pm
EVAN, the main competitors of our industries are overseas, especially in developing countries. This Government is planning to reduce the barriers to imports to zero, which will send our industry to the dogs. If you are concerned about "competition", you should be weary that you can't put on the same field industries that pay their workers $2/hr, simply because a kilo of bread in that country is worth 10cents (etc.), with our workers who can't buy a kilo of bread for 10cents if we make them equally "competitive" by paying them the same $2/hr. Barriers are there to be smartly and efficiently used to the advantage of our People.... In other words, the issue of who is "competitive" and who is "uncompetitive" must be carefully revisited. We need a proactive Government, not this bunch of incompetents who would love to wash their hands and let the "creative forces of the free market" run amok.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 9:24:32am
Why don't you ask the people from the countries that are now selling us goods that were once made in Australia?
I am sure their people are happy to take our money.
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Ben the lawyer:
21 Feb 2014 10:45:51am
'Why don't you ask the people from the countries that are now selling us goods that were once made in Australia?'
No. You said 'lack of assistance from the federal government'. So tell me, how much and for how long. How much money should be redistributed from successful businesses to unsuccessful business. Give me names, amounts and length of time for support.
If you can't, at least admit that you do not know and are just making noise for the sake of it, without the ability to offer meaningful solutions.
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Vault:
21 Feb 2014 11:10:58am
Or Ben one could ask why all subsides, tax breaks, FBT, rorts, rebates and the like are not stopped?
How many of your "successful business" are also supported by the taxpayer?
If you want a truly level playing field then do away with all support to business in all forms.
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sdrawkcaB:
21 Feb 2014 11:23:27am
You often do this.
A totally overblown demand based on the principle of the burden of proof.
You ask a normal citizen for proof that it would take the resources of an entire government department to demonstrate.
So very clever I am sure.
To others, reading this persons responses...
he is well worth the read in conjunction with the site your logical fallacy is.
He provides plenty of examples to help cement ion your mind some of the common fallacies.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 11:33:28am
Pick a country and I'll source the information and tell you.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 11:52:41am
Realising you are not capable of doing anything other then slinging out meaningless nonsense instead of address the issues raised I will help you.
Trying doing a search of Global Subsidies Initiative group.
Here are a few of the topics they cover regarding this question. They provide a Guidebook to Fossil-Fuel Subsidy Reform for Policy-Makers in Southeast Asia.
Also the GSI provides case studies that identify and quantify irrigation subsidies in a variety of countries. These studies provide detailed insight into the extent of government support to the sector, and provide a starting point for assessing the impacts of these subsidies.
The GSI also explain subsidies in countries that often exist because of ambitions related to trade and investment.
"Trade is also a place where negative effects of subsidies are often felt the hardest - by non-subsidizing countries. At the same time, the world trade regime is the only place where binding international regulation on subsidies has been established: the World Trade Organization's (WTO) Agreement on Subsidies and Countervailing Measures (ASCM). The GSI's work on trade and investment explores all these linkages and investigates how the trade regime could address subsidies more effectively." Quoted from the GSI's web page.
There are of course other web sites that go into this question so why don't you make an effort to prove that other countries are NOT providing subsidies that put our industries at a disadvantage.
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Ben the lawyer:
21 Feb 2014 12:35:10pm
'so why don't you make an effort to prove that other countries are NOT providing subsidies that put our industries at a disadvantage.'
I don't have to, because the argument is about what assistance the federal government should provide. If you are arguing that other countries subsidise their industries and therefore that we should subsidise ours the same amount, then you need to (a) state that, (b) work out which companies should be subsidised, (b) work out how much they should be subsidised and (c) work out how long they should be subsidised for. You then need to list the productive businesses, how much money should be taken off them to give to the other (unsuccessful) companies, and for how long. Only then can you make that argument honestly.
Anything else, like general motherhood statements such as "lack of assistance from the federal government" are about as useful as other general motherhood statements (i.e not very).
I'm not necessarily predisposed to being against every form of government assistance, I just want to be told how much, who gets paid, who has to pay for it, and for how long. Everything else is just meaningless noise that distracts from the real solutions. The fact that the above is difficult does not mean that it shouldn't be done (by you or anyone else making your points).
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 6:07:50pm
Actually no what I am arguing is that there is no way we can ever reach a fair trade sort of situation unless every country is starting from the same point which will not happen in my life time. I gave you the web site to go to look fir yourself.
And seeing that this is a fact we should be very careful as a country what industries we assist and which we don't.
If you want to make an effort you can do some research and tell me where the line should be drawn.
One place I think society should start is in the area of the law.
I assume you realise that there are now so many people coming out of university with law degrees that there are not enough places for them.
New grads are being encouraged to look at employment in different areas. The article I read stated that a law degree is now worth nothing more then an Arts degree. And yet you lot are one of the highest paid professions in this country. Smells a lot like manipulation to me. Of course if you fail at law you can always go into politics and protect your law mates from that position.
How much of the public purse do you guys need?
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JamesH:
21 Feb 2014 9:41:27am
Button car plan should be scrapped and protect our boarders from foreign cost cutting dumpers of junk products onto the Australian household market. While the only way to stop the high Australian dollar is to zero the interest on the Australian dollar. Then those money speculators the boot.
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Dicky:
21 Feb 2014 11:06:12am
Ben the lawyer write "How much money from productive businesses should go to unproductive, uncompetitive businesses?"
An excellent question, Ben : now answer this one, Just what productive businesses do we really have left (apart from mining, agriculture etc)? By "productive" I assume you mean, actually producing something?
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:28:29pm
Why are you so dismissive of all the other industries apart from the car manufacturers ?
Many of the component makers are already developing products that can compete on the world market and exporting.
Volvo/Mack trucks exported from Brisbane plant and ambulances for small business in Sydney are but 2 of the small business thriving without government dollars.
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the yank:
21 Feb 2014 6:10:33pm
Wrong ANdie a few are competing on the world scene not many and one of their main problems is the lack of Australian infrastructure to get their product to market and still be competitive.
Broad sweeping statements don't solve the problem. It requires a government with adults which we now seem to lack.
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Machiavelli's Cat:
21 Feb 2014 7:54:39am
I do wish people would stop forgetting about the ACT. We have a Labor/Greens Territory government with no election due until 2016. So it will not be wall-to-wall Liberal/National (CLP/LNP) governments. It is reasonably likely that the highest office holder for Labor may be Katy Gallagher, the ACT's Chief Minister. Just remember that at one point in time the highest officer holder of the Liberals was the Lord Mayor of Brisbane (Campbell Newman).
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darthseditious:
21 Feb 2014 9:23:25am
Until Victoria goes to the polls later this year. I wouldn't be putting much money on the LNP winning. They only got in last time by one seat and have been constantly on the nose ever since.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 1:06:59pm
Victoria is Australia's home of socialism and manufacturing. Federal budget cuts could be a problem for the LNP brand. Bracks was probably the least worst of the state Labor governments so Labor won't look so scary. Sportsbet has that contest at 50/50. I tip Labor.
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patience radlett:
21 Feb 2014 2:44:18pm
Peter Dutton remembered (belatedly) on last Wednesday's 7.30 that the ACT was not under the LNP's control.
Somehow he managed to blame the ALP states of South Australia, Tasmania and the ACT of being responsible for bringing his junior minister Fiona Nash and her chief of staff into disrepute. I couldn?t understand his logic and was totally confused, but perhaps it was just his method of avoiding Sarah Ferguson's question.
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lance karbuncle:
21 Feb 2014 6:18:45pm
Patience, I saw that edition of 7.30 also. I agree that Peter Dutton seemed to be absolutely out of his depth. My thoughts are, that this current crop of Ministers answer questions they wish they had been asked, rather than the questions actually asked.
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Clusterpod:
21 Feb 2014 8:01:34am
I'm not sure why, after all this time, and despite all fact to the contrary, that journalists and commentators are still referring to the "carbon tax".
Its not a tax.
It never was a tax.
Despite its positive or negative effects on the economy, the negative connotations perpetuated by its mis-naming is a purely political endevour, and one that is ideologically driven.
Journalists should know better.
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dinohtar:
21 Feb 2014 9:17:55am
I expect they call it a tax as Gillard said it was a tax.
and she can do no wrong.
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jusme:
21 Feb 2014 11:07:12am
She preferred not to bicker over the naming of it in an interview once. And it stuck.
If I take a load of garbage to the tip, am I paying a tax or a price for the service of dumping my waste product?
I loved how Christine Lagarde pointed out that "externalities" have a habit of not being paid for. The carbon price addresses that rort, and does some other beneficial things at the same time.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:34:00pm
Then why did Gillard lie to us and say it was a "tax"?
In reference to the Q&A last night what a poor performance by Tony Jones.
Several times he tried to get Mme Lagarde to comment directly about Joe Hockey policies.
Mme Lagarde put him firmly back in his box with grace and dignity in the face of disgraceful politics playing by Jones.
Cringeworthy!
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IanM:
21 Feb 2014 8:02:00am
"The Coalition is collecting plenty of ammunition - most it with Bill Shorten's name of it." Yes indeed. The inquiry into union finances will be the gift that keeps on giving for the Coalition.
The ALP knew this was coming before the election and could have called their own inquiry, set the terms of reference to suit themselves and gone to the election as the enemy of corruption and protector of the ordinary union member. Instead, having allowed the Thomson debacle to go on far too long and failed to counter the bad press coming out of the ICAC inquiry into Obied and MacDonald, they gifted that to the Coalition.
Having presented the new government with such an opportunity, they then elected Bill Shorten as leader. Anthony Albanese could have provided the parliamentary team with some distance from an inquiry into union corruption, something that Shorten, as a former AWU National Secretary and ACTU Executive, won't be able to provide. The fact that Albanese was the popular choice of the rank and file but Shorten was the union's choice just makes it worse.
So now we can look forward to something like the Obied - MacDonald hearings, this time on a national stage. Anyone familiar with what happened in western Sydney at the last election can imagine the result. We can also expect reinstatement of the ABCC on the back of disclosures about the building industry, reform of the Fair Work Commision and legislation protecting ordinary union members from corrupt officials like Thomson tabled before the next election. By any standard, that's quite a replacement for the carbon tax.
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Nova4avr:
21 Feb 2014 9:46:26am
The LNP may find that the Royal Commission into the building industry could uncover some very embarrassing behaviour by building companies as well, that could blow up in their face.
Also the recent allegations against 3 members on the NSW liberals, seems to be indicating connections to Obied, with some inference that this might also involve some LNP federal politicians.
The old adage that, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" might damage this lying mob currently in power.
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IanM:
21 Feb 2014 10:30:10am
Nova4avr, the Inquiry may well find corrupt behaviour by building companies, but the parliamentary Coalition MPs aren't former building industry businessmen the way the parliamentary ALP are almost all former union officials. Consequently it is almost certain that the Inquiry will "damage the lying mob" currently out of power far more than the government. They wouldn't call such an inquiry otherwise. Moreover now that Shorten has foolishly opposed the inevitable, every disclosure will be presented as "something Bill didn't want you to know". A few dodgy businessmen will have no impact on that at all.
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KM UELLS:
21 Feb 2014 1:46:17pm
IanM, you suggest that the Libs wouldn't call an inquiry if they thought it would damage them more than the opposition. Thanks for confirming that you support the use of Royal Commissions, costing up to a $100 million, as political weapons.
Your comments also explain the conservative thinking behind a lot of the legislation already introduced or being introduced in Qld.
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IanM:
21 Feb 2014 2:51:25pm
KM UELLS, let us be clear. I said I thought the government wouldn't call an inquiry that would harm itself. Hardly rocket science. I didn't say, as you imply, that the harm it will do to the ALP was the sole motivation for calling it. Moreover I also pointed out that the Gillard government could have called an inquiry of their own, but failed to take that opportunity. That failure, ignoring the actions of union leaders such as Thomson beyond any reasonable limit and the election of a senior unionist as ALP leader have created the conditions for the embarrasment the ALP will suffer. Frankly rather the ALP be forced to fix its mess than low-paid workers be treated as they were by Thomson and Williamson.
The reason for calling the inquiry is to investigate union finances and the protections available to ordinary union members. Perhaps you believe that union officials should be allowed to steal from their members, or that union members aren't entitled to protection, but if so you should understand that this is a minority view. The Coalition went into the election with this inquiry as policy and so it has a democratic mandate to implement it. Under these circumstances opposing an inquiry to protect union officials at the expense of ordinary union members is untenable.
Finally, your comments also explain ALP thinking behind opposition to the inquiry. If there were nothing to hide, the inquiry would be a nonevent. I suspect the volume of the opposition is directly proportional to what you all know will be revealed.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 8:11:37am
Good balanced article Barry the point on the carbon tax being an albatross for labor is very true and they would be quietly hoping nothing changes in WA I also note you do not mention DD election perhaps labor is uncomfortable with that given recent polling..
It's a win win for Abbott ether way he gets to repeal the tax as promised or he can blame labor with it all the way to the next election.
The mini campaign in coming days will say more about Bill Shorten than Tony Abbott the Griffith bye election was more about the fall in Labors vote than the expected win given Abbott's unpopularity and it would have concerned many.
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Desert Woman:
21 Feb 2014 10:16:45am
Did you listen to Christine Lagarde on Q and A last night? Tony and Joe might be having some difficult conversations about climate change over the weekend.
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gbe:
21 Feb 2014 1:30:32pm
All they need to say is the issue with climate change is the effect a tax that relies on impacting on prices to reduce demand in a country of 24 million is stupid.
Will there be a global emission reduction because Australians are paying more for power. NO !!!
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Desert Woman:
21 Feb 2014 2:59:57pm
Wrong gbe. Our scheme is having an effect on emissions and its the same in every country and region that has one. Oz is not the only country in the world with a price on carbon and it all adds up.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:37:06pm
Great display by Tony Jones of the complete lack of bias on the ABC.
Could not even spend one evening in great discussion without resorting to his disgraceful petty politicking expecting her to comment about Joe Hockey policies.
How she made him cringe with her replies!
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Desert Woman:
21 Feb 2014 3:02:06pm
Really? I love seeing a little humour on the Drum.
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Ted:
21 Feb 2014 8:12:04am
Sorry Barrie but this issue will continue to be the gift that keeps on giving . As shown by Tony Burke's very poor performance on Q & A where he could not answer the query put to him that come the next election , and giving the ALP's stance on the carbon tax , a vote for the ALP is vote to reintroduce the carbon tax . Oh dear .
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 8:39:19am
I thought it was more telling, Ted, that Eric Abetz referred to the upcoming Royal Commission as "We".
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Craig of Bathurst:
21 Feb 2014 9:49:07am
Well, Mark, it is the Coalition's commission. Regardless, a slip of the tongue by Abetz is not the telling point - it is whether Labor well go to the next election promising to re-install the carbon dioxide tax. Will they, Mark?
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Simon:
21 Feb 2014 10:55:10am
Yes Craig who will ever forget Julia Gillard every second sentence Theeey Wiill briinng baaack wooork choooiceesss
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 11:02:18am
"Labor well go to the next election promising to re-install the carbon dioxide tax. Will they, Mark?"
Craig,
I mean, would Liberal supporters one day stop inventing non-existent scenarios? CO2 emissions pricing (your "carbon dioxide tax") was always, I repeat, always going to be a temporary arrangement that was expected to last 3 years (which Rudd reduced to 2). It is the Emissions Trading Scheme that is the permanent Labor policy to pricing polluting carbon dioxide emissions. IF Abbot embraces an ETS, perhaps with modifications agreed upon with Labor, then Abbott will have Labor support in the Senate (Shorten has already told him so). If Abbott wants to disregard the ETS for his wishy washy useless policy, then Labor is in the obligation to oppose it, and Abbott will have to negotiate with the PUP, other minor Parties and Independents. Labor should not be ashamed of the ETS now, nor at the next Federal election. Warming is continuing and industrial greenhouse gases emissions continue to play a role in it. Reality doesn't go away, after you have closed your eyes.
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EVAN:
21 Feb 2014 1:43:45pm
"It is the Emissions Trading Scheme that is the permanent Labor policy to pricing polluting"
You have got to hand it to the Labor party if there is a dud policy going around they will ferett it out,pink batts,BER,cash for clunkers,you name it they will find it.
I would have thought after the last 6 years that the labor party would have learnt that if the Greens endorse something you should run as fast as you can in the opposite direction but not the Labor party they are in there boots and all backing every loopy idea that the Greens come up with and the greens have no shortage of loopy ideas.
We have all watched in awe over the last few years as the EU ETS collapses taking countries with it.Watched as industry in Europe closes down and moves to all those environmently friendly countries like China and India.
We all know that the ETS is the love child of Goldman Sachs and the UN to get control of the worlds monetry system.If I was Christine Lagarde I would be keeping a close eye on Christine Figueres.
Yes I am sure an ETS is just what Australia Needs.LIKE A HOLE IN THE HEAD.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 3:13:14pm
EVAN, you are still repeating the same nonsense that the liberal storm troopers repeated ad nauseam before the election. Back then at least you had the excuse that telling lies was for the "good purpose" of winning the election, but now it just looks like you simply have nothing else to say.
Please do tell me what do you think about Abbott's plan to reduce CO2 emissions. Did you know that he has got a plan, and that now your money will be used to implement it if it passes the vote in the Senate? Do you support Abbott's plan?
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 11:18:24am
With all respect, Craig, I think what is happening now is more relevant than hypothetical projections for the next election.
The point of a Royal Commission, of course, is that it fails if it is seen as too partisan, or a witch-hunt.
By the looks, of it, and by Abetz's admission, it will be both.
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ANdie:
21 Feb 2014 1:42:59pm
With all those ex-unionist lining up to give evidence including Shortens first mentor in the AWU it is going to be a rough ride for the ALP from the top down.
There goes your witch hunt.
Chance of failure - nil
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lazarus:
21 Feb 2014 5:11:00pm
Chance of successful prosecutions based on Cole Royal Commission into unions - 0% just like the Cole Royal Commission. It did give us plenty of dodgy bottom of the harbour scheme employers though. Can't wait for a similar result.
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Helvi:
21 Feb 2014 10:44:37am
MJ, I noticed that too, Royal Commission, Royal 'we'.
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Anastasios Manolakis:
21 Feb 2014 8:12:54am
Blinded by the lies:
The carbon tax and moving to and international Emission Trading Scheme (ETS) was the Labor party greatest achievement in the 6 years it was in power, yet it is as Barrie Cassidy states, politically poison.
Abbott with the financial assistance of Reinhart, Forrest, Palmer, Murdoch and their mouth piece Bolt have lied misled and frightened the a portion of the Australian public into believing it would destroy the Australian economy.
Again right policy for Australia both from an economic and the environmental perspective but Abbott and the Liberal Party do not have Australia's best interest as their priority, Abbott's acts in the best interests of the rich few who control coal mining in Australia.
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Merlin 23:
21 Feb 2014 9:41:18am
As a political system is based on representational democracy, the government of the day is obliged to follow what the people voted them to.
Regardless of whether moving to and international Emission Trading Scheme (ETS) is great or not (I personally believe it needs to happen) - the fact is the Labor government went to an election saying they would not introduce a carbon tax. People (at least partially) voted for them because of that fact.
Food for thought..
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GJA:
21 Feb 2014 10:39:29am
Anyone who expects the government to simply and exclusively follow the policies outlined in its election campaign is a fool. In the years of incumbency many things can change and will require a response. The response may require a change of direction. If you cannot do that, there is good reason for you to stay out of politics. In fact, please stay home in bed.
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 2:19:40pm
Merlin 23. Tired old argument that gets twisted based on the political alignment of the person considering it.
On one hand, the Liberal voter will focus on the "carbon tax" and declare its introduction a lie
On the other, the Labor voter will say that it is a result of a minority governments negotiation with the greens to hold power and that the scheme was and always will be an ETS with a fixed period.
Who is wrong? can we assess this and put it to bed without political ideology or propaganda interfering with our perception of events?
is it still a "tax" to charge a fee per tonne of carbon emitted?
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 11:56:15am
I think the point your missing is the carbon tax is a protest tax it creates pain for no gain.
People are not completely stupid no matter what Australia does Global Emissions will not be reduced so the thinking is my electricity bill is going up for nothing..
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 1:22:55pm
Pure narrow minded self interest is not how we are going to survive this crisis.
Every polluter (you, me, all Australians) has an obligation in this area. The CPRS is a small step in the right direction. It costs people virtually nothing. And yet people whinge and whine.
If you can't work out why your electricity price is increasing, go do some basic research. If you think your tax cuts didn't cover the carbon price's effect on electricity prices, you can enroll in remedial maths classes. And if you can't work out a way to use less electricity then I'm sure you can get tips from your supplier's web site.
It's not hard to do the right thing. Sadly, Abbott has convinced a lot of people that it's OK to not do the right thing. That's not something to be proud of though.
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cath:
21 Feb 2014 3:32:30pm
Well if your a pensioner in western Sydney you get a bit like that.
All right for public servants with their noses in the trough living in their Canberra 4x2 with pool and solar panels to reduce the bill..
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 3:39:38pm
What a poor old attitude you have many cannot even afford refrigeration let alone heating and air conditioning and with the job losses there will be a lot more of them.
And you want people to suffer so you can make your little point to your greenish mates no wonder Greens do so poorly at the Polls. Nothing worse zealot's of any fanaticism.
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ingenuous:
21 Feb 2014 8:01:43pm
Mortan, it's humorous to see right wingers complaining about a market based system. The CPRS works because markets work. Remember that "invisible hand"? That's individual selfishness working for the common good. You don't get all upset that "user pays" is one of the conservative slogans. No. Not unless it's a Labor or Greens policy, of course.
This is not about wanting people to suffer. That's a ridiculous claim. But if you don't price carbon correctly then who pays in the end? Our descendants. This is all about us paying our way fairly. It's the least we can do.
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Terry2:
21 Feb 2014 8:14:56am
There are an awful lot of politically engaged Australians who don't want to see the Abbott government in control of the Senate as well as the Reps. and they probably see Greens and Independents with the balance of power as the best option.
We shall see.
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dinohtar:
21 Feb 2014 9:19:13am
I never want to see ANY party hold control of both houses.
its not just a liberal thing.
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Keith Lethbridge Snr:
21 Feb 2014 1:57:20pm
G'day Dinohtar.
I can see your point, but on the other hand, I always want the encumbent government to control both houses. That way, they can actually govern.
Surely that's what we want any government to do. If they do it poorly, we can eject them at the next elections.
Regards,
Cobber
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Nacnud:
21 Feb 2014 3:57:26pm
Too right.
The nation should be run by Parliament, not from the Prime Minister's office.
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whatif:
21 Feb 2014 8:31:13am
Well it will be interesting as we see the results of the WA election, I doubt if any one can really see what the Lnp is up to as they hide behind the shrouds of secrecy, no other government in Australia has ever done this and I find it amusing to see the only other stragatity he has is to deliver 2 x royal commissions both into trying desperately to bring down the alp and the unions, what the idiots cant see is that soon we will be another usa, no jobs, no pensions, no medical for the poor, this is exactly what Obamba is fighting for, to bring in much of what we have taken for granted in Australia into the usa, and the opposition ( the rich) don't want it, now we have our own government wanting to follow the rich ( conservatives) in the usa and turn us into another global disaster. I hope when the WA people go to the polls they see that Australian made has no significance with this government, they have no policies that don't feather their own pockets and they don't give a damn about them, I hope they use the vote wisely and keep out minor parties who the abbott government will be relying on for preferences and make one vote for one party. I will be watching with interest as the voting is carried out.
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I Love Polls:
21 Feb 2014 8:57:50am
The only ammunition I see Abbott having is the bomb shells he keeps dropping on us. I hope he has to release all of his budget cuts before WA goes to the polls. That'll be nuclear. The carbon tax will be a drop in the ocean compared to the tsunami of doom that will be washing away any hopes of a fruitful future we have. He's the grim reaper. Without drastic change, it's all over. How about a speedy leadership change like in Italy? Abbott says he wants to be the best friend of Medicare. A play on words perhaps? Best friend of Medicare equals enemy of the people who use it. He seems to be doing a great job of making enemies of all of his "best friends". It seems to be the only thing he is good at. If my memory serves me, didn't he say there wouldn't be any changes to Medicare? Sounds like another broken promise.
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Nova4avr:
21 Feb 2014 10:33:58am
I do agree with you @I Love Polls. If Abbott says he is the best friend of Medicare, I would really hate to see what the worst enemy would be like.
If the LNP don't reduce business welfare & do something about the tax rorts by the wealthy, in the up coming budget, then we will see what they are really made of.
I & a lot of people fear for what they have in mind, as they seem hell bent on taking us down the mad, rat bag path of the US Republican & T-Party mob. Which has ruined the US.
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Celarent:
21 Feb 2014 9:18:32am
Not quite wall-to-wall Barrie. ACT is still Labour-Greens and will remain so for at least the next three years, and hopefully longer. :)
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Maynard:
21 Feb 2014 9:52:30am
Praise the Lord for the ACT, where the wealthiest people in Australia live under the best conditions. Maybe they should be located to Western Sydney to get a feel for the country they govern. Don't this just typify the green alp rump.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 10:42:12am
Maynard, were the inhabitants of the ACT also deserving of a relocation to Western Sydney during the 11 long years of the Howard Government? Or were they okay back then?
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 12:04:46pm
Alpo: You make a very good point perhaps Abbott will read your post and start relocating the public servants to different parts of the country.
All the scientists to Alice springs for instance plenty of sun light there and all welfare departments heads to Western Sydney where the need is and with the new NBN fast conferencing there is no excuses.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 1:14:20pm
And what would you do with Canberra, Mortan, sell it to the Americans to build a new Disneyland?
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Old Timer:
21 Feb 2014 11:10:48am
Maynard, most of the people in the ACT either relocated from, or a descendants of, Western Sydney (or western Melbourne, for that matter). So we already know what it is like to live there. And we remain proud of out westie roots.
But, sadly, the West that I left 40 years ago, a west full of new post-war migrants who were accepted with open arms, a west full of hope and aspirations for the future of this great country, doesn't exist any more. All I see when I return now to visit relatives and old school friends, are bitter, angry, non-accepting people who think the Government owes them a living.
Hope you enjoy living there, Maynard.
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Maynard:
21 Feb 2014 1:09:35pm
So now y'all vote green alp, since you have escaped real Australia & found nirvana on our westies taxes. Good one, rulers in paradise, wealthy Canberrians. Why don't you put up the GST to punish us some more for daring not to share your dreams on our debt?
The government has already given you a high standard of living on us. Thanks several billions.
There is another Australia out here that is doing it tough, without anything from the government.
Enjoy yourselves on the rest of us.
When will my ALP recognise this?
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Old Timer:
21 Feb 2014 1:52:57pm
Like I said, Maynard, bitter, angry people who don't accept anybody who is not from their backyard, and think that Canberra is the whole of Government. Two things, Maynard: Menzies pushed very strongly for the full-scale development of Canberra, and I went there under his watch, and the vast majority of any of the Governments work and policy setting is being done by people who live outside Canberra, and only visit there when Parliament is sitting.
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Celarent:
21 Feb 2014 1:30:16pm
I gerw up in Western Sydney for your information and would much rather see the standers of western sydney brought up by good policies than see the standards of ACT brought down by bad policies. Two very different methods of achieving 'equality' and I know which one I'll be voting for.
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Maynard:
21 Feb 2014 3:07:29pm
Mate the billions have been spent by the Canberrians, our alp/green rulers. We have half a trillion of debt, we of the West have been screwed by them...they never do anything for us & our union leaders hire pros. That's what you get from green/alp policies, we have just been worked over. Are you on a government payroll too?
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Merlin 23:
21 Feb 2014 9:25:55am
"The argument was lost conclusively when the country voted."
No it was lost when Gillard struck a deal with the Greens after promising not to have a Carbon Tax.
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jusme:
21 Feb 2014 11:17:17am
One broken promise, and a questionable one at that as many people don't believe its a tax, but a price.
Anyway, no-one can beat Abbott when it comes to broken promises. He can even break two promises with one act when he dealt with the greens to raise the debt.
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Oaktree:
21 Feb 2014 9:35:24am
Referring Thomson to the Privileges Committee could prove a double edged sword. I hope the whole rotten mess comes out. Including the part the Libs played in this whole sorry mess. Ms Jackson gave some interesting evidence and HSU members must be fuming!
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Algernon:
21 Feb 2014 11:05:54am
She can't answer where the money came from for an expensive new car. She has the ear of the PM I believe.
Will the PM shut down the RC when when some unsavoury allegations come out that may affect him.
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Maynard:
21 Feb 2014 9:40:27am
This whole exercise shows the rottenness of the Senate & how undemocratic it is.
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gerard oosterman:
21 Feb 2014 9:42:54am
No matter what, no matter who or whatever happens in WA or elsewhere. We will never have a Christine Lagarde amongst our gaggle of politicians.
How refreshing to hear her last night on Q&A. "Health and Education are NOT entitlements", she reiterated several times.
There is Hockey, "the age of entitlements is over' and Abbott, " being the friend of Medicare", his statement dripping of falseness.
Ah well, we'll have to live off that for the next decade or so.
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Vasectomite:
21 Feb 2014 10:38:33am
Thank god for that, gerhard,
She gargled the unsustainable top of the pops politico-dirge of the failing blue planet.
"Growth,growth,growth."
It seems some people think that a token woman is better than a man,period.
Look at 'some' of Gillards legacy.
* The offshore misery is now set in stone.
*The union movement is about to be decimated.(That's actually ONLY good news provided , the filth-bags getting locked away, and there's enough still standing to carry on)
*She has done as much damage to the empowering of women movement, by her actions as she allowed Abbott to do her.
*Locked many single parents out of lifting 'themselves' from poverty
Remember gerhard,Le Garde is not in charge of the IMF blood bank,she is just their pin up girl.( A bit like a 'friendly' missionary) That aligns her with the outcomes of their policies, which are not just universal education and health.There is more harm associated with "Growth,growth,growth." beyond this point, than there are good news stories, or any perceived rewards for the poor.'
Give me Aung San Suu Kyi, any day.She is no hurry to foul the nest.
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GJA:
21 Feb 2014 10:42:28am
Oh, that's scary. "Not entitlements", well, o.k., but only insofar as they are requirements for society to operate effectively and advance in its capabilities. But it looks more and more like Abbott and his supporters prefer a two-class society, the wealthy and the serfs.
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Mortan:
21 Feb 2014 12:06:42pm
Well that makes it easy you can pick what side you want and work towards it.
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GJA:
21 Feb 2014 1:23:34pm
You mean I can just choose to be wealthy & powerful and it will happen! Oh, how wonderous! Why, look, here come my fairy godmother now.
Or do I have to tithe to the LNP deities to gain their favour, perhaps? Seems more like, and more likely to end in the same result: relegation to serfdom.
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AlterEgo:
21 Feb 2014 9:45:18am
The political future appears to be going this way.
Will voters prefer an achieving government that uses tough, unconventional (some might say criminal) methods to achieve their polices, or will they vote for a milk-toast, semi-achieving, alternative, that has singing kumbayah as one of its major platforms?
No prizes for picking which is right or left aligned, or which will be the ultimate winner!
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Trump:
21 Feb 2014 9:46:39am
If anyone gives their vote to a party that supported Craig Thompson or said they would get rid of the carbon tax and now blocks that happening...well, they're a fool.
Likewise if anyone gives their vote to the likes of Palmer, I saw a story on him recently that showed him for what he is and I didn't like it one bit.
Stick with the NLP at least you get honestly integrity and a steady hand at the wheel.
Don't be fooled by more taxes scares, this country needs money to run ...the ALP wasted it ....someone has to get it back again.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 10:27:00am
"Stick with the NLP at least you get honestly integrity and a steady hand at the wheel."... Trump, start the fundraising for the next Federal election campaign now... the Libs will need to spend billions in propagandistic lies spread through the media to retain Government, and even that may not be enough.... Sorry!
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Tombowler:
21 Feb 2014 10:32:13am
Palmer is almost certainly a megalomania ridden buffoon with some erstwhile disturbing tendencies to self aggrandizement however, that said, he's not particularly offensive. Would I vote for his idiot party? Certainly not. Can I understand why others do? Absolutely.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 12:40:01pm
Palmer's mob will back the government more often than not but I can't really think of them as conservatives; just a few ratbags with incoherent random musings. He does seem to have a massive conflict of interests in several areas, and I doubt he can hold his motley little flock together for too long as their egos inflate to the levels of Oakeshott et al. Expect chaos, and much wacky bribery for passage of key government legislation.
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 3:03:15pm
if Abbott was 1/2 as bad as he currently is, Palmer would still get my vote ahead of him but the bottom line is that I would never vote for either because their existence depends on keeping resources in their control at the expense of others and the environment.
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GJA:
21 Feb 2014 10:51:30am
Thompson was a crook, as we know, now that he's had his day in court. Some people would prefer a lynching, it seems, but never mind, we live in a society ruled by law, not by mobs. But his party supported him, based on his claim of innocence and his right to face his accusers, which is only just.
Anyone who wasn't paying attention when Labor introduced the carbon price and the plan to transition to an ETS, accelerated in the last election campaign, is deliberately obtuse or lying. Try reading a newspaper.
I can't support voting PUP, but until we've seen how the party performs, as opposed to its leader's television appearances alone, we can't be completely sure it isn't the next Democrats. It probably isn't, but that's up to the voters to decide, whether you like it or not.
The "NLP" are liars in thrall to wealth. They will kill Medicare, destroy public education, and reduce the aged pension. They will allow businesses to fail just to stick it to the unions. They will reduce the international political conversation to kindergarten badinage. The "steady hand" you worship weilds a club, with which it will beat the poor and middle class into serfdom.
We don't need more taxes, we need the taxes better spent. Intelligence and planning are not this government's strong suit.
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Algernon:
21 Feb 2014 11:08:40am
"Stick with the NLP at least you get honestly integrity and a steady hand at the wheel." I nearly choked, Trump.
What was it the IMF said about the Howard government when the wealth of the nation was squandered last decade. Or what of the only words you can trust of the current PM is the carefully worded transcripts.
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rusty cairns:
21 Feb 2014 12:12:58pm
GDay Trump,
It's the LNP coalition that intends to scrap the mining tax and the price on carbon It's the LNP coalition that will scrap the 15% tax on super earnings above 100,000/year. It's the LNP coalition that wants to reintroduce the health insurance rebate to some of the riches people in the world.
It's the LNP coalition government that intend to give away $3billion of our taxes in an attempt to reduce carbon emissions regardless if that attempt works or not.
It's our federal government that is using taxpayers money to buy boats that they use once and leave them in Indonesian waters.
Sorry what's that about this country needs money to run?
Due to actions of our current federal government we have just had to defend our countries actions in the International Court of Justice and we await that courts decision.
Due to actions of our current federal government, armed Australian sea vessels have breached another countries territorial boarders. Assurances were given that this would not happen to the government of that country and to the people of Australia. So much for assurances from our government eh?
What was that you mentioned about honesty, integrity?
I'm certain the ALP will support a move to an ETS as this is the policy that they took to the last election. Oddly enough this was the policy that the ALP and LNP coalition took to the 2007 election and after 8 months of negotiations, parliament was set to introduce the legislation but the morning of the day the bill was to be introduced the opposition changed leader and withdraw support for the legislation claiming a carbon tax would be a better policy.
I remember a Federal member of parliament whom was a minister whom claimed his government taxpayer funded phone was stolen, but after investigation he finally admitted he had given his taxpayer funded phone to his son and while in his sons possession a phone bill of $50,000 was racked up, can you tell me what legal actions were taken against the member of parliament and his attempt of fraud?
Don't forget the only reason this came to light was the phone was being used in the UK when the minister was in Australia.
Mr Thompson has face a court of law for the fraud he has committed. Can you see the similarity to his crime and that of the other Minister's, both attempts of fraud?
Whom do you believe was given the most support by their party?
Trump I think some people have very selective memories, eh ?
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Trump:
21 Feb 2014 12:55:32pm
You lot make me laugh.
The ALP rely on the Unions , the same Unions that are now the subject of a Royal Commission, no doubt if the Unions are busted the ALP will align themselves with the Hells Angels or Comancheros.
They backed Craig Thompson ands will align themselves with anyone they think can help their grab for power and grasp on the public purse, Thompson could help them in that regard, he's had plenty of practise.
Bring that bastion of truth and justice Gillard back, I dare you , but you'll have to wait until the police have finished their investigation into her affairs.
If Labor ever get back in you'll know what hard times are all about.
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rusty cairns:
21 Feb 2014 1:56:24pm
GdAy again Trump,
Fraser use to say to those on the ever lengthening unemployment lines "Life wasn't meant to be easy"
Those people weren't laughing.
Abbott has said to those facing the same "be thankful you will be liberated" They wont be laughing.
The announcements of the Indonesian government regarding actions being undertaken by "operation sovereign boarders'
Show they aren't laughing.
Timor Leste action of taking Australia to the ICJ shows they aren't laughing.
Some people laugh for the strangest reasons and I suppose it's funny that they make comments like "the government needs money" but don't see that the government they support is trying to reduce revenue streams taken from those that are the most able to afford paying those streams.
Go right ahead mate laugh yourself silly, but in my view that may be to late to do already.
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Trump:
21 Feb 2014 4:36:33pm
No you're right - bring back Gillard and Rudd, Garrett and that really good team that was so good the electorate.
Put Craig Thompson in charge of Treasury.....what was I thinking.
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rusty cairns:
21 Feb 2014 7:19:42pm
Trump,
Your last comment reads like you've stopped laughing.
Gee mate Thompson has been dispelled by the ALP because of fraud , the fraud has just been proven in a court of law.
However he was dispelled not long after the findings, ( was it fair work inquiry?) before he was convicted by the courts.
He sat in parliament as an independent.
The minister that I mentioned crime was found out within months of it occurring he was keep as a minister ( not even demoted to a backbencher) and I believe is still a member of that political party. The man committed a crime he gave unauthorised use of government property to a person whom had nothing to do with the government and got away with fraud to the cost of $50,000 of taxpayers money, until he was found out and paid the money back and nothing happened after that. If Thompson pays the money back will all be forgotten and forgiven?
Gee mate, many warned that an Abbott led government would be a wrecking ball and this is being confirmed with relations with our neighbours at the lowest levels for decades. Thousands are facing unemployment in a few years this was announced as soon as the government announce that they would not support the vehicle manufacturing industry, every other vehicle manufacturing industry in the world receives government support from their governments, why do you think that those governments do that?
Couldn't you see that "Our Plan" was just cut and hope?
Trump I met Tony Abbott not long after he was elected to parliament whilst combined rural fire brigades were doing a hazard reduction. I judge him aloof, later when as health minister he tried to defame Mr Bernie Banton as a defence to Mr Banton's criticism. in my view that shows very low morals.
Gee mate Abbott is the only Australian politician I know that has organised court proceedings that had political opponents gaoled for what could only be seen as very minor offences cause by slow administration by them.
Having an Australian Prime Minister whom is prepared to have political opponents gaoled to protect losing votes from his political party, how has this happened?
Australia having to defend it's actions in the ICJ.
What has become to the country I love?
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Algernon:
21 Feb 2014 2:32:07pm
The investigations finished Trump, but not that into the Slipper affair oh no. That could bring charges against half of the front bench and maybe a PM.
Unionists don't tend to vote Labor nowadays, so you ought to stop with the myth making again. The RC will backfire spectacularly on Abbott. Just like the ICAC inquiries into Obied is starting to on the Liberals in NSW. One Liberal minister gone two other Liberal MP's gone. A Liberal fund raiser has had to resign his directorship in a government business all because of their links to Obeid.
Election in NSW next year, while Labor wont win there's more than enough bark coming of the Liberals, they won't win a seat on the Central Coast where they hold the lot.
You see trump you point the finger, yet when you look at the Liberal side it scratch the surface and you find them riddled with corruption. Then again you'll be silent about that.
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Trump:
21 Feb 2014 5:29:33pm
Any corruption on the Lib side id kids stuff compared the incompetence of the ALP, thousands lost at sea because of their asylum seeker policy, pink batt deaths, toy name it they've ruined it, think before you vote.
NSW is rotten to the core, all sides of politics, how did Packer get a licence to build a casino in that Barangaroo location ???
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 3:09:49pm
Unions eh. I think Labor needs to separate from them completely so that you cant use this card anymore.
There are MANY people such as myself who want a new party free from the control of both unions and big business. Both sides are almost as corrupt as the other
If Labor can separate and be reborn without the union cancer attached, but with similar progressive policy then I think Australia can finally look to the future positively.
political funding should be limited to individuals and be fully transparent to avoid a repeat of our current corrupt political system.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 3:21:14pm
"The ALP rely on the Unions"... Trump, it's the workers who rely on the Unions, the same workers who are worried about this Government of incompetents destroying jobs and planning a systematic attack on the wellbeing of working Australians.... Looking forward to seeing how's Murdoch going to hide this mess and how is he going to cover the stench of rot coming from the Abbott Government.
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 3:00:06pm
Trump your post reminds me of the Marlborough adds of the past trying to encourage people to take up something that will later turn out to be bad for them.
Craig Thompson deserves everything that he gets NOW THAT HE HAS BEEN SHOWN GUILTY. We shouldn't crucify someone until guilt Is proven.
"steady hand at the wheel" means absolutely nothing and is a hollow comment on par with all of the lies and hollow slogans that are not being delivered upon. The boat policy is a shambles, despite boats slowing (yes, they have not stopped). We have lost the respect of our neighbours, sent our military on a wild goose chase, spent BILLIONS, breached international conventions and shown the middle finger at Asia and the rest of the world - the impacts on trade will be immeasurable.
Yes, the country needs more money to run. That's why forcing so many big companies offshore by poor decisions is going to hurt us. Higher unemployment, less production, higher imports are what your friends have brought us so far, not to mention the misery to be dished out on the poor this coming budget. If you voted Liberal you voted for steadily destroying Australia and increasing the wealth divide.
So, keep waving your flag proudly!
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Blue Flame:
21 Feb 2014 5:52:03pm
"...someone has to get it back again."
Paying women of calibre to have babies, and paying industry to reduce their CO2 pollution is an odd way of getting the money back.
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Alan:
21 Feb 2014 10:04:21am
The choice once again between a party in power and saying lots, doing a little but advertising and creating sensation with boats and other things and a party that did one good thing and then let it self down by being becoming a fued bigger than the Hatfields and McCoys.
The only the Labour party has to do is point to the Barnett/Buswell timeline since the last state election and that will sway most against the LNP.
Lies built upon more lies, blame stacked against more blame and smarm bulit on car salesmen (politician) values.
Neither party deserves to hold the balance of power but the independents and Greens offer little or no real alternative, perhaps Clive of Brisbane may but I don't think so!
Just another election that will see spin, slogans and the the industrial changes mooted by the Cleric and the barnett lies being the big issues in the CUB'ie capital of Australia
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Peter Gerard:
21 Feb 2014 10:08:38am
The ICAC enquiry in NSW, the Craig Thompson affair and the forthcoming Royal Commission into union activities have and will be ,in the long run, good for Labor as it will help clean out the debilitating corruption that plagues Labor and its affilliates. Labor gives the impression it is unable to do this unilaterally. A good dose of "conservatism" will be good for our economy and might even rejuvenate the education sector. There is one major drawback: country wide conservative governments will be a disaster for the environment and animal welfare issues. Unlike the economy, damage to the environment may not be repairable and animal suffering, as is occuring on a massive scale in the live export trade, will go unabated as long as the hard heads in the LNP hold sway.
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Polysemantic Pete:
21 Feb 2014 12:22:45pm
"The ICAC enquiry in NSW, the Craig Thompson affair and the forthcoming Royal Commission into union activities have and will be ,in the long run, good for Labor."
I concur. I suppose I'm a leftie because I do believe in the union movement and the good it can do for both workers and the broader economy when it works well (think wages accords of the 80's and Hawke and Kelty managing to bring in super for all workers). The problem is when there is corruption or too much union influence. The Coalition often have a shot at Labor for the number of ex-unionists who end up as candidates and parliamentary members of the ALP, so I thought I'd do some fact-checking and sadly I must admit they are correct, there are dozens of them Federally. Need far more grass-root level involvement in the pre-selection process by wider rank-and-file membership. Same as the Coalition could do about appointing so many ex-staffers and lawyers. Both parties need people with broader experiences and a wider understanding of issues collectively.
The issue of ICAC is an interesting one because new and upcoming inquiries into Australia Water Holdings could prove troublesome for the conservative side of town now. Nick Di Girolamo has had allegations of corrupt conduct made against him and Chris Hartcher might be asked to explain what he knew about certain things. Athur Sinodinos' name has been raised previously on this as well. I wonder if we'll hear it again in regard to this matter?
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Tata Tone:
21 Feb 2014 10:12:35am
It's a simple formula for WA and one which will give them a strong bargaining position as citizens.
Vote Labor Green.
It is a simple insurance policy for the whole country.The more pressure Abbott is put under to get his ideological mayhem through,the better.Voting Clive will accelerate enviro damage and lower wages conditions.
If Abbott gets P'd O, and calls a double dissolution,good.I can guarantee he won't ever get a second chance.I'd say he has lost a slab of votes.(Apart from the loons on line and the Bolt brigade)
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Jorjei:
21 Feb 2014 10:13:06am
@ GRF 8:27 am
"They have put an end to the farce on our borders, an end to the deaths at sea and an end to the billions wasted."
Yes, I suppose a vicious bashing on land is far preferable to a drowning at sea.
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Zoe:
21 Feb 2014 10:29:11am
Thomson absolutely has to be brought before the parliament and made to clear the name of Biano. The accusations made against him exist forever now in Hansard and they must be countered in Hansard with the truth
For those scoffing at the need for a Union corruption RC- you are part of the problem that has allowed grubs like Thomson and Williamson thrive on lies stealing and bullying - LNP knows big business complicit in this corruption will all be unearthed as well so it is win win for Australia- clean air!!!!
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gerard oosterman:
21 Feb 2014 10:34:52am
Isn't it telling that the IMF chief, fearlessly, appears on such a public program as the ABC's Q & A in Australia, and yet, our own PM never. " We will not listen to "Moral objections " ,re the killing and maiming of Manus Island illegally detained prisoners of war.
The refugees on Manus Island were told they will never be allowed to settle in Australia, no matter what. There are 700.000 people having fled into Turkey, another 700.000 into Jordan, just over the last few months from Syria alone, and yet...Australia not generous enough to allow AT LEAST those that have been found wandering the ocean in leaky boats.
What sort of hell-hole did my parents migrate to?
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 11:43:07am
Why on earth would Abbott go on Q&A? The ABC actively campaigns against the government. It would be a hostile circus. The audience would be stacked full of people pretending to be Coalition supporters (evidence exists that this happened in election debates). Severe, theatrical, inner city women in scarves and thick rimmed glasses, who want to protest rather than listen to answers. As it is, every single panel is stacked in favour of the Left, plus the host is from the Left. You wouldn't see Labor Left figures make appearances at the Institute of Public Affairs, so why would Abbott walk into an obvious ambush of people who overwhelmingly don't like him. Abbott talks to mainstream Australia and the ABC has itself to blame for marginalising itself from mainstream Australia.
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Blue Flame:
21 Feb 2014 6:09:22pm
The ABC doesn't actively campaign against the government, they simply hold the government to account. It's a pity more media outlets don't try it.
From my experience of viewing Q&A, the audience appears to be evenly divided between right and left. For every 'inner city woman with thick rimmed glasses', there is a crotchety old, cardigan wearing man, who has voted Liberal since the days of Menzies.
The real reason Tony hasn't appeared on Q&A thus far is his lack of public speaking skills, particularly in a non-scripted environment, where there is no where to hide and glaring stuff-ups cannot be edited out. In this department, he is the complete opposite to Turnbull, a man who can clearly articulate a point, with polish and precision.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 7:58:27pm
They hold the government only to Leftist standards. Many of us like Abbott's rough edges. It helps with the everyman values image that fits with his activities in the fire service, lifesaving, fitness, and on-ground Aboriginal work.
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clete:
21 Feb 2014 12:02:06pm
Did your parents attempt to jump the queue and come out by a leaky boat, Gerard. Or did they do what most of the law abiding and respectfull migrants did in previous times and waited their turn.
These illegal immigrants in the leaky boats, as you call them, went through two or three countries (where they could have sought asylum from claimed persecutions) before deciding to pay smugglers to get them to Australia.
We're compassionate, but we're not mugs.
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gerard oosterman:
21 Feb 2014 2:37:23pm
Clete,
Yes, my parents did jump the queue. Remember the White Australian Policy? Coloureds need not apply. (Try next door.)
"Illegal" immigrants? Don't they breathe, cry, laugh and have same emotions as us? ( apart from lack of empathy by many of us)
All that stands between you and the "illegal" immigrants is the luck of you birth.
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Sea Monster :
21 Feb 2014 12:30:35pm
Punish us Gerard. We're not worthy. A foreigner has criticized us. Oh dear!
So tell me, did Turkey say these 700,000 Syrians could settle there?
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gerard oosterman:
21 Feb 2014 2:40:25pm
Sea monsters;
I bet a lot more settle in Turkey than the mere 1300 or so at Manus Island.
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 3:16:22pm
I think his point is that we are racist, elitist unwelcoming biggots who have abandonded our international commitments for the sake of our god, MONEY. Your post provides further evidence of this.
Our attitude in Australia is disgusting and quite justifiably, the international media IS reporting this. Just because your local redneck rag tells us to "STOP THE BOATS" does not make it right, intelligent or in any sense good or even Christian.
I share the disgust of this poster. Australia IS a hellhole but rather than put up with it, action will be taken which will be reflected in the polls.
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Karlen:
21 Feb 2014 10:35:15am
One way of blunting the coalitions ammunition is to remove the target & that it is perhaps a very opportune time for labor to consider that move. It looks like Bill Shorten is not very effective as a leader, does not perform well in many respects & is incredibly wooden to the point of being uncomfortable & mismatched in his job as opposition leader. The Clark & Daws parody of lodging a missing person report in the name of Bill Shorten summed it up well. There are several good people who could take his place ie: Penny Wong, Tanya Plebersek or Anthony Albanese spring to mind.
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Keith Lethbridge Snr:
21 Feb 2014 10:42:25am
G'day Barrie.
Thanks for your article.
When this by-election's over, it might be time for the government to forget about trying to wound the opposition & get on with governing the country.
I give the government full credit for keeping out uninvited immigrants & encourage them to keep up the good work. However, if unemployment is a problem, why bring in hundreds of thousands of legal immigrants each year?
I'm told there are around 40 thousand a year who leave Australia permanently. This sounds like a good number to allow in.
Regards,
Cobber
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Trump:
21 Feb 2014 11:15:41am
"""When this by-election's over, it might be time for the government to forget about trying to wound the opposition & get on with governing the country."""
The Govt wouldn't bother with such piffle, just watch Shorten lie his way through any interview and you know they are doing that job themselves.
Some of the incredibly dumb things that come out of Shortens mouth astound me, he is just the weakest leader I've ever seen the ALP elect.
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Mark O:
21 Feb 2014 3:08:19pm
Trump, you are correct. Mr Shorten is the slowest on his feet I have seen for a long time - as if his heart really isn't in it or when union minders have not provided the script
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rationalthinker:
21 Feb 2014 11:04:01am
Sorry folk, people voted for Julia Gillard in her electorate. Other electorates voted for the party or person they saw fit...apparently as it was a hung parliament, similar numbers wanted neither Tony Abbott or Gillard as PM.
Often state voters support the party opposite to the federal govt...this could well happen in WA. There is mixed feelings about Colin Barnett wasting the mining boom (as did Howard) and the latest waste of cash - shooting sharks paying $6000 per day for fisher"men".
He has possibly been effective in other areas. By the way who are you "yank" - appreciate your way of thinking.
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clete:
21 Feb 2014 11:50:00am
Howard may not have capitalised on the mining boom by giving back too much to the taxpayers, but his government didn't waste it. Remember we had a $20b surplus at the chageover to Rudd1?
Now when it comes to waste, how did Rudd/Gillard/Rudd's 6 year period go? Correct! $350b debt!!!
Doesn't sound like rational thinking to me!!
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Mark James:
21 Feb 2014 11:04:40am
AHLD (9:12:42am), I wouldn't call $45,000 high paid, would you? It's well below the average, for a start.
Maybe the reason Abbott and the born-to-rule think it "extraordinary" is because it's well above the $2 a day they consider those of us on the lower rungs to be worth?
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Polysemantic Pete:
21 Feb 2014 11:19:35am
"But then three weeks later, Labor faces more embarrassment when two ageing state governments in Tasmania and South Australia face the voters."
Depends on whether or not you subscribe to the theory that state elections are fought only on state issues. That may have been the case a few decades ago, but as the line between state and federal responsibilities has become far more blurred, I'd argue people are more likely to be keeping one eye on Canberra as they cast their vote. SA's face may not be as red as you suggest (from the embarrassment angle, not the colour of politics). Greg Hunt wants to start up forest wars in Tassie again, so who knows how that will play out in the state arena and what effect it will have.
Victoria go to the polls in November and from what I can make out, the Conservatives there have a bit of work to do if they want re-election to government.
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clete:
21 Feb 2014 11:53:28am
Could be wrong, but I think the Victorian voter has too many fresh memories of the previous Labor government to let them back in again. Especially with Daniel Andrews as their leader.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 6:01:35pm
Polysemantic Pete,
The SA ALP government actually lost the TPP 48 to 52 to the Liberals at the 2010 SA State Election. There is also a lot of shenanigans going on with the ALP's failing to sort out the Education department as there were major issues with the way a sexual assault on a student at a primary school was handled, mind you the minister in charge when that happened is currently Premier of the state and failed to properly sanction the person who screwed up as it was one of his personal advisors. Many more cases that have been appallingly handled have come to light over the last 12 months as well which have happened under the last 2 Ministers.
Plus we had the Premier on radio a couple of weeks ago threatening to resign if soon to be ex senator Don Farrell was parachuted into a safe ALP seat. Farrell is the godfather of the SA ALP and has the numbers to control the party and install who he wants as Premier. So there is a lot of internal ruckus inside the ALP similar to what happened Federally, so SA, according to all the polls, is looking like electing a Liberal government in March, even after the Holden issue came to light.
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clete:
21 Feb 2014 11:37:26am
One of the more balanced articles I've seen from Barry for a while.
There's no doubt that the Labor brand is "on the nose" in every state. The WA result will be interesting though, given the relatively small period of Abbott government.
One thing I have noticed is the lack of the usual Labor acolyte posts on the Craig Thompson story. There's certainly no shortage of them prepared to call Abbott a liar.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 11:41:19am
As usual, this is sinking into the mould of right versus left, with many posts not addressing the subject.
The re-vote for the senate in WA, which I will be happy to contribute to, is not very likely to change much. WA is fairly weighted to the right... for crying out loud, we re-elected Colin Barnett!!! That goes to show how readily WA overlooks poor decision-making and conservative absurdities.
So the farce that has been the coalition's adult approach to government won't even be recognised by many voters for the inept and embarassing pantomime it really is.
So this is not likely to be a measure of government performance or opposition credibility. It's more likely to be a demonstration of apathy and disconnection from current affairs by a large slice of the WA population.
And this is not a criticism. Just recognition that political theatre is not nearly as important in most people's minds as the winter olympics or the looming footie season. Can't say I blame anyone for that. Why be depressed over politics when you can be elated or depressed over more meaningful and more competent performances by professionals who have to account for the results?
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Ataraxia:
21 Feb 2014 11:43:12am
I do not understand why current political debate never seems to about the philosophical differences between the conservatives and those to their left. We seem to be forever bogged down discussing human frailties that are present in all of us, either on the left (which seems to me not too left) or on the right (which seems to me to be stretching very right).
Unfortunately the focus on the predicaments of particular individuals satisfies our salacious appetite at the expense of allowing us to make an educated assessment of the direction our country should move.
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MJLC:
21 Feb 2014 11:44:29am
Looking through the comments to date I note that a good number of the people who commented yesterday to Antony Green's article have not bothered to associate themselves with today's bunfight.
There is a good reason for that as far as I can see.
Yesterday's article was "hijacked" by Western Australians from a range of political camps, and they spent quite a bit of time talking about a state and its politics they actually understand from their own particular standpoints.
It was robust, it was frank, it operated at an overall level of respect for who you were arguing with slightly higher than the usual all-in brawl we read here, but perhaps most tellingly it was worthwhile because the folk taking the time to drop by and share their thoughts and biases knew something about what they were discussing. They (we) live there.
I appreciate to most of the Australian population Western Australia goes into the too-hard basket politically (a "there be dragons" kind-of thing), and that collectively we're a bit of a mystery - perhaps even somewhat "odd". From what I read here it appears this is very much a case of the perspective of where you're viewing it from. People who talk about things they have some basic qualifications to understand aren't actually the "odd" ones.
Well, that's the view of one oddball from "the mining states" anyway. Please carry on with my warmest and sincerest blessings.
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Esteban:
21 Feb 2014 1:13:07pm
MJLC. The first post on this article came in at 7.02am ESST. That explains why the early run is dominated by that time zone.
I sincerely believe that Cassidy is right and the ALP would prefer to see the carbon tax repealed by the sentate.
Apart from perhaps aluminium the carbon tax is not the single issue that causes manafacturing to decline. But it cannot be disputed that it does make it more expensive to manafacture and it is one of a number of reasons that manafacturers are struggling.
The ALP secretly would like the CT off the agenda but they can not say it publicly.
For too many voters the existance of a CT while unemployment is rising is a correlation that hurts the ALP.
While the CT exists the coalition have a get out of jail card on rising unemployment that will work for too many voters for the ALP.
The CT is harming the ALP but they are forced to argue in favour of it to save face.
The coalition love the get out of jail card of the CT but argue against it.
The carbon tax has close to zero environmental impact, a moderate cost impact on business but has a massive political impact.
I wonder if your Green friend will be done over by the ALP in preferences for the senate election so we end up with say a PUP instead of a green. The PUP being more likely to vote for the repeal of the CT which would in the end be of great benefit to the ALP?
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MJLC:
21 Feb 2014 2:12:24pm
I'll go into this topic as a courtesy to you Esteban, not because I think it's a worthwhile use of time.
There is nothing you have included in your dot points which - as best as I can tell - is explicitly wrong (I urge any patriot tempted to rush to reply to Esteban to first read the words carefully). You have given a fairly coherent and astute reading of the politics of this matter.
Saying that, I now look at what other proposals are currently on the table. I see nothing better than something which we can, I'm sure, agree on is bad. That "nothing better" observation most definitely also includes not doing anything at all. By definition, that makes what is currently there the best proposal I have available for me to support. As such, and under those parameters, I support the carbon tax. Politically foolish perhaps, logically sound.
And, as I've already said elsewhere, my guess is we'll end up with both a Green AND a PUP after this has run its course here in WA. When it comes to political swings and roundabouts, I believe a very interesting new dynamic is about to take centre stage federally after July. It won't be anywhere near as beneficial to the Coalition as the current one, so out of a sense of fair play I'm quite happy to let them have their few moments of what they consider "triumph" while they still can.
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Alpo:
21 Feb 2014 3:29:28pm
Esteban, Carbon Pricing is not and it has never been a real issue. It was doomed to end this year anyway. It is the ETS that matters now. Labor have a minority Senate mandate to introduce an ETS, the Coalition have a minority Senate mandate to introduce their plan, they are both minority, it is especially the minor Parties and Independent that will decide. It's time for Abbott to start polishing his poorly developed negotiating skills.... we will see what kind of deal he will strike with those Parties, if he can do so. If he can't, the DD option is open to him, of course.
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Benji:
21 Feb 2014 11:46:00am
Just have to laugh at all these comments blinded by political hatred. You are all so naive if you think your vote actually means anything, or that there are actual ideological differences between Liberal and Labor, other than Liberal is for the rich, and Labor is for the poor.
Didn't the WA "missing" votes make anyone else question how effective physical paper votes are? How easy it would be to pay off someone to "miscount" or misplace a few votes here and there, or to alter those pesky pencil markings with an eraser?
Why are all parties (greens included, surprisingly) afraid of going to an electronic vote? Is it because there would not be a major party left? Honestly, if you look at the actual figures for the recent Federal Election, remove those ridiculous preference votes, and work out what's left... it's split almost precisely 50/50 Liberal/Labor. So saying anyone voted decisively is a massive distortion of facts.
Just my Humble opinion, and food for thought, you silly sheeple.
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Lachlan:
21 Feb 2014 1:14:18pm
There are major ideological differences between Liberal and Labor.
The "law of the jungle" policy of small government doesn't necessarily benefit the rich. It mainly benefits the ruthless rich.
In the US, lack of healthcare for the poor has bred drug-resistent TB, which can then attack the rich.
The rich benefit from having an educated workforce to employ. It is conservative politicians who don't benefit from the entire public being given skills in critical thinking.
The rich benefit from having a manufacturing industry as well as a mining industry.
The rich benefit from not being a stumbling block against international action to keep the earth suitable for human habitation. ("The environment" isn't a political football -- it is our home.)
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seanone:
21 Feb 2014 12:00:04pm
APM take a good hard look in the mirror and then have a look at Queensland with a Government putting their yes man into the CMC, a body set up to try and stop a repeat of Joh's rampant corruption, exposed by the ABC and then Tony Fitzgerald. It also then sacks the Parliamentary CMC all designed to ensure no further investigation into Flegg bribery allegation. Then what do they do introduce straight from Adolph Hitler"s 1933 Reichstag Bikie Laws. So I suggest next time you want to rant at least get your history right. Also recommend you read Tony Fitzgeralds article which was published on this site a couple of weeks ago entitled "Abuse of Power", you really will learn something that will stand you in good stead.
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APM:
21 Feb 2014 1:55:42pm
I'm not a banana bender, but from my limited understanding, the QLD government does seem to have gone too far in criticising and usurping the judiciary. A premier denigrating and delegitimising and shifting power away from core institutions of democracy and accountability is ugly and risks a corrupt environment. However judges can be unaccountable and politicised too. Newman is appealing too much to base political opinion but all Premiers accuse judges as being out of touch to some extent.
Sex offenders ARE treated too leniently. It's good the attorney general has the final say on whether serial sex offenders are released. As for the bikie laws, my main concern is that they are a blunt instrument punishing people pretty much on appearance alone. As for the really bad guys, I couldn't care less what becomes of them. Queensland needs a Senate for more oversight of power and drafting good policy.
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B.T:
21 Feb 2014 12:02:06pm
Gee I wish the Abbott Government would just get on and govern rather than point-scoring (or whingeing about the former government).
What did Australia do to deserve such an appallingly bad bunch federally?
In Queensland too the Newman Government is so relentlessly negative.
It's as they want to discourage people who actually care about the environment and the future of Australia to not bother. The people in government are just too grubby and horrible.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 1:09:29pm
It is very noticeable that almost every question to a coalition MP draws an initial comment bagging the ALP. It's almost as though they are reluctant to talk about themselves, perhaps because there is little for them to say. Or do they think it will whittle away any lingering support for the opposition.
If nothing else, the WA re-election will (should!) give them something meaningful to talk about. Who's holding their breath?
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Mark O:
21 Feb 2014 3:04:27pm
KO, for the 1st two years of the Rudd "government", not one front bencher could fail to mention Tony Abbott at least once during every media contact.
The Libs handed over a huge surplus, and now have to deal with a vast deficit - no bloody wonder the Libs whinge about it. The job the Labor "governmentS" did was appalling.
As I said at the time - and now we pay for it.
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Judy Bee:
21 Feb 2014 12:03:16pm
Yes, Barrie, we are heading for wall to wall Coalition governments, echoing the wall to wall Labor goverments during the early Rudd years.
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Mark O:
21 Feb 2014 3:01:22pm
And almost all of the Howard years.
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taxedorff:
21 Feb 2014 12:08:01pm
ageing governments in any state of any political party are faced with defeat so this point is meaningless. the aspects of the union inquiry and home insulation is in effect opposition style tactics and ways of deflecting the bigger issues of the governments directions. in many respects these issues are rear vision and nothing to do with long term national vision. the major issues of the day are job loses and the govt slashing areas whilst quietly protecting niche groups who support the libs. the union inquiry is one sided and wont tackled the vexed questions of involvement by business in corrupt practises. until the govt directs the inquiry to tackle corrupt practices by all business in Australia then the unions can feel its macarthyism and a witch hunt of salemesque proportions.
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Alison Cann:
21 Feb 2014 12:27:43pm
The fresh WA Senate election will hurt our democracy and electoral trust as well as the Australian people and their vote.
One organisation it won't hurt is the iron-clab, armour-plated wholely protected, bunkered-down Australian Electoral Commission who lost the 1370 ballot papers.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 1:13:04pm
Alison Cann, far from hurting our democracy, this re-vote is essential to maintain our democracy. Missing votes - even a relatively small number - make any election invalid, because it implies the possibility of manipulation. Can you explain how you think it will damage our democracy?
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Alison Cann:
21 Feb 2014 3:48:25pm
Kagey One
Why do you slur the AEC by implying the possibility of manipulation.
A loss of votes means it was an accident.
They conducted the election where the accident occurred.
They lost the votes, and that is an accident.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 6:05:37pm
Alison,
the head of the AEC has resigned due to this stuff up, so it has hurt the AEC. As reported :
"Commissioner Mr Ed Killesteyn today wrote to the Abbott Government stating that he had formally tendered his resignation to Governor-General Quentin Bryce."
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 7:18:13pm
Just a touch of misunderstanding Alison Cann. I was not suggesting that the electoral commission was attempting manipulation by disappearing the voting papers. My point was that a decision to NOT rerun the election would imply the possibility of manipulation by that decision. Whichever of the two counts you accepted, it could not be certain to show the voter intentions correctly.
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Pop:
21 Feb 2014 12:36:48pm
"And that is what the Royal Commission into the unions is partly about; that's what the inquiry into the home insulation program is partly about; and that's why the government is looking at referring Craig Thomson to the privileges committee even though he's no longer in the parliament."
So Barrie, it's not about getting rid of bent people and standover thugs running our construction industry? Finding out what really happened to 4 young people who lost their lives from a shoddy run Government program, A convicted fraudster who lied in and mislead our Parliament??
You see people like Eddie Obeid, Bill Shorten, Michael Williamson, Julia Gillard, Craig Thomson etc need to be kept away from power because they abuse it. Just because these people come from the same area, Unions and then the ALP is no coincidence?? Barrie the way you let Bill Shorten off the hook everytime you interview him is a disgrace, you and your ABC need to really have a look at who you are supporting. Blind Freddy and 53% of the Australian population can see they're crooks.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 1:16:34pm
Pop, the ludicrous suggestion that the government was somehow responsible for cowboy operators sending teenagers into roofs with no training is totally worn out. It was a Liberal slur and nothing more.
I guess you would blame the federal government for young and irresponsible people killing themselves by playing chicken with trains on the railway lines.
Bit of rational thought: please.
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Pop:
21 Feb 2014 5:23:30pm
Ever heard the saying "the fish stinks from the head down"?
The incompetent Rudd Government are totally to blame in the way the project was rolled out, if private enterprise rolled out and ran a project like that it would have not even got it off the ground.
The Government of the day are totally to blame.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 7:23:41pm
Not very convincing. The people sending kids into roofs WERE private enterprises.
You can fault the efficiency of the roll-out, but the responsibility for deaths or injuries lies with the cowboys doing the business end of the job.
Your obvious distaste for the Rudd government seems to be making you think illogically.
Perhaps you are also inclined to blame the motor dealerships, or perhaps the motor vehicle registration office, for pedestrians being run down by lousy drivers.
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Pop:
21 Feb 2014 8:07:42pm
So you work in the project construction industry then Kagey?, know much about project management? the roll of the EPCM? All the contractors should have been vetted by the Department like any project and dodgy ones not even got a sniff at any of the work... How many legit businesses went broke because the Government Clowns totally stuffed the insulation industry when they shut it over night... Cattle Industry (Ludwig), Agriculture and fishing (Tony Burke) spring to mind....
I also note you haven't commented on the rest of my argument regarding the honesty of Eddie Obeid, Thomson, Williamson, Gillard, the absolute disregard Shorten has for tax payers money sending in 2 x QC's into a tiff between a tafe and union rep?? Little Bent Craig Thomson misleading Parliament?
Bring on the Royal Commission into the Unions or do you disagree with that too??
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of Berwick:
21 Feb 2014 12:38:18pm
But Barrie, your statement "The argument was lost conclusively when the country voted" is over-egged.
There were only 30,00 votes in it in the last Federal election. If those 30,000 had decided to go with the ALP - Mr Turnbull would now be leader of the opposition.
And as that 30,000 is across about 12 seats, the election was a close run thing.
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HKFooey:
21 Feb 2014 2:01:31pm
thanks of Berwick, clearly you are delusional and are using some a misleading stat to prove your point that no commentator on the planet would agree with, the last election was a wipeout for the ALP. The 2 party preferred results showed the Coalition received over 57% of the vote, a margin of over 1.7 million votes by my reckoning.
I guess dealing with loss is a challenge for some.
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Snake:
21 Feb 2014 4:56:55pm
2013 TPP result:
LNP - 53.5%
ALP - 46.5%
Your reckoning is flawed.
What is it with you people?
"The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."
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Pop:
21 Feb 2014 8:08:54pm
Snake, does 6% of the 2PP equal 30,000 votes??
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arf:
21 Feb 2014 12:46:51pm
Erm. The carbon tax is not hurting the Labor Party. That is a myth being desparately propagated by the petrochemical industry via News Ltd. (and a few jibes from Fairfax)
How else to explain the relative numbers of people willing to demonstrate their direct support for and against? (10:1)
What has been hurting them is their inability to reframe the arguments brought. So Shorten was reported as willing to drop support of the tax. What wasn't put out was that he proposed switching to a trading scheme. Abbott quashed this by baldly asserting he would not consider pricing carbon emissions in any form.
Politics is evolving from the art of the possible to the art of pretence.
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Lehan Ramsay:
21 Feb 2014 12:56:30pm
Do you think they refer to themselves as the Coalition because of their ties to the Mining Industry? That's interesting. I suppose they used to be the Unified Dairy Front.
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BJA:
21 Feb 2014 1:18:11pm
The "carbon tax" introduced by Labor was an interim measure intended to lead to an Emissions Trading Scheme.
It was a very conservative measure, cost Australians and Australian business very little, and was a surprisingly effective first step in reducing emissions of carbon dioxide.
What has been lost in all the rubbish about "great big new tax" is that unless Australia and every other country drastically cut carbon dioxide emissions in the very near future, humanity, including Australians, face a disaster of apocalyptic proportions.
Abbott and Hockey are dolts. I know they are totally ignorant of science, but it seems that they are also incapable of seeing economic matters beyond the view available from a suburban corner store.
Amongst the masses of well established economic analyses, couldn't they just read something like Sachs's "Commonwealth - Economics for a crowded planet"?
The simple truth of their economic deficiency and delinquency is well illustrated by two matters - Abbott's plan to hand billions of dollars to "women of that calibre" and Hockey's attack on what he calls "entitlements".
Abbott's plan to give "women of that calibre" billions of dollars as an entitlement simply because they are "of that calibre" is exactly what could be expected of a monarchist- a person who believes that it is sensible to breed a head of state. The monumental ignorance of humanity and genetic inheritance encapsulated in that absurdity is laughably primitive.
Hockey has been very coy about just which entitlements he is attacking.
I take it that he is not attacking the "entitlement" of a Federal Treasurer to his salary who can see no problem about a bank making a half-yearly profit of $10,000,000,000 while workers and pensioners struggle?
I presume he is not averse to Abbott's "women of that calibre" getting away with "entitlements" of billions?
I further presume that he has no bothers with Abbott's "entitlement" to dip into "taxpayers money" when he goes for a ride on his bike, or for Barnaby Joyce and Julie Bishop to do the same when they attend overseas weddings?
The "entitlements" that Mr Hockey are bothered about are the ones that Mr Rudd "wastefully" committed the Australian Government to, and chief of these by a long margin involved a long overdue increase in the single biggest item of Federal social expenditure - the Old Age Pension.
Perhaps what Abbott and Hockey are planning is a modern version of Santamaria's Catholic Rural Movement only this time it will be the "Catholic Urban Movement" - a plan to downgrade Australian workers to coolie status, but I'm not sure whether helping them to poverty so that they will "keep the faith" is part of the new scheme.
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Tator:
21 Feb 2014 6:15:08pm
BJA,
So a profit of around 4.8% of market capitalisation is too much for you. Each share holder of the CBA will probably receive a dividend of around $3.66 a share, not a lot in real terms considering the share price for CBA shares is currently $75.18.
Now all the big four banks are going to probably have a combined profit of over $30 billion, but they also would have contributed $10 billion in company tax to the Federal Govt as well.
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BJA:
21 Feb 2014 7:42:09pm
Since the dividend is so puny, perhaps it would make little difference to them and they might hand over the entire $10,000,000,000 to the Commonwealth. With your facility with figures, I've no doubt that you'll be ale to quickly calculate the personal share that that would allow for each old age and otherwise disabled pensioner.
By the way, are you aware that the most prominent theologian/philosopher of the religion to which Abbott, Hockey, Joyce, Andrews, Pyne etc claim to adhere held that if someone (like a CBA shareholder) had more than they needed, and someone else less, he who had more was required______but then again, some of these things don't need to be taken too seriously do they, especially if you're a hypocritical liar ?
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prison:
21 Feb 2014 2:08:06pm
Interesting comments section - there is not option to reply to other comments.
WA's result will highlight that an increasing number of people are unhappy at being fooled by Abbott prior to the election. In particular, pretending to have an environmental conscience purely to not get voters offside, but now demonstrating through actions that the environment is the enemy.
I wanted to reply to one persons comment from the coal industry that those on the "loony left" are driven by ideology which isn't backed up by science. I find it amasing that people like this have the nerve to reflect the same criticism that is more suitably directed at them. The position of those with an environmental conscience is that the greenhouse effect is REAL and that AGW is REAL and that unpredictable weather patterns recently is partly caused by man is REAL and completely backed up by science. Also, when the conservative head of the IMF AGREES with the "loony left" then it puts into perspective how extremely right wing and off the scale AGW deniers actually are.
because it effects you financially, you greedy fools have convinced yourself that black is white and somehow you are the victims. WRONG, you are the problem; get out of coal now before the industry collapses.
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Snake:
21 Feb 2014 4:48:37pm
It's only here and in the USA where the issue of AGW has been so deeply politicised. And that's because of Abbott.
In Europe and Asia, all leaders have accepted the science and are talking about how to deal with it. Even bloody China, who walked away from Copenhagen, have come back to the table.
We should just be thankful that Abbott is such a relative irrelevance.
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Des Elephant In Evry Room:
21 Feb 2014 5:11:45pm
Keeping in mind that the IMF still wants unfettered growth.Population(over) is the biggest driver of all the problems on the planet.(Including AGW) Everything else is musak in an elevator heading to a very dark basement.
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Lehan Ramsay:
21 Feb 2014 2:25:58pm
So just like that huh? They can go from being a branch of the Cattleman's Union to the Liberal National Party. Just like that.
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rationalthinker:
21 Feb 2014 2:32:22pm
clete, apologies I did not explain properly.
Howard and LNP "wasted" the mining boom by banking the money in SURPLUS instead of spending some on infrastructure. The school building programme was largley a necessary expenditure for poorly maintained schools which needed better facilities and upgrading. Yes there was some money wasted - however it would have been spent into the Australian economy - and there were ripoffs mainly confined to that urban mythological creature, the Western Suburbs!
Yes so Labor spent money and in doing so, buffered Australia from the worst of the GFC.
Supporters of the Royal Commission witchhunt into unions, have fun explaining why the Govt doesn't just finance the relevent agencies capable of investigating this, instead of spending up to $100 million on a lawyer fest .
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Lehan Ramsay:
21 Feb 2014 2:37:17pm
Anyway it's all irrelevant. Given the speed at which Australia is running out of money the ABC will be shutting down in about an hour and fifteen minutes thanks a lot ABC for all these years I suppose on Monday Mister Abbott will hold a press conference in which he will give someone a note and ask them to pass it on.
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Jeremy C:
21 Feb 2014 3:08:14pm
Barry,
You have really drunk of the LNP Kool Aid propaganda on climate change haven't you!
I remember your interview with Abbott on 'Insiders' (sic) the Sunday before the election when you let pass his answer on AGW, "I believe in climate change and humanity contributes to it". This typical climate change denier meme gets past guys such as you and Peter Hartcher every time without you realising its just a climate denier fob off. Even if you do understand you are being fobbed off you don't challenge it. And then you guys in the MSM let go unchallenged activist propaganda using extremist language by the LNP over pricing carbon. Why? Meanwhile, ordinary people in the electorate plus scientists, anyone who thinks a little knows that the LNP is just putting out propaganda on anthropogenic climate change and the techniques to deal with it such as pricing carbon.
Why do you let their propaganda go unchallenged unless you like your high status position sooo much you don't want to risk losing it.
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Daniel:
21 Feb 2014 3:09:43pm
Yes the best thing for Australia would be for the Greens to win 2 Senate seats and throw the balance off totally. Australia cannot do with more major party nonsense at the moment, and more career politicians.
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Paul Taylor:
21 Feb 2014 3:11:10pm
Job insecurity, the NBN, touted changes to Medicare, a manufacturing industry in decline, cost of living pressures & the lack of an articulated & believable plan for transition from a raw resource dominated economy subjected to cyclical ups & downs of the global market will be key factors to the outcome of upcoming elections. How will manufacturing workers vote (GMH, Toyota, Rio Tinto, Alcoa) when they learn....aware of all the spin in between... that their fate was sealed back in early December 2013 when Trade Minister Robb negotiated a Free Trade Deal with South Korea made more palatable with the demise of car manufacturing in Australia, ratified on the very day,20 Feb 2014, Toyota said it was exiting car making in Australia?
Would you trust a federal Coalition government to not broaden the Goods & Services TAX (GST) base if they won both Tasmania & SA in the state elections in March 2014? Forget the weasel words about the ACT being run by Labor & the Greens or the real possibility of the Coalition losing state government in Victoria toward the end of 2014...the current global & domestic climate of doubt & uncertainty gives greater strength to the peddlers of gloom, doom & the push for austerity & for a necessary sunrise implementation date in the 2014 May Federal Budget for a broadening of the GST base that hits people on welfare, retirees, the unemployed & low to middle income earners the hardest.
A state like Tasmania, suffers from the tyranny of distance from international markets. In Tasmania voters can see the benefits of National Broadband Network (NBN) fibre to the home...both to individuals & business...rather than a patchwork of second rate cost cutting alternatives like NBN fibre to the node. There are now sufficient businesses & individual households in Tasmania with access to NBN fibre to the home to draw comparisons with the Coalition alternative. Who wants to pay up to $5,000 to connect fast internet broadband ( handling BIG data at speed) because the current federal Coalition government has abandoned the former federal Labor government commitment to Tasmania. Anger is growing in Tasmania against the Coalition alternative on internet broadband coverage; one contractor affected by Coalition plans to stop the fibre rollout for the NBN fears millions of spent on equipment have been wasted...but wait a minute is not fixing waste a Coalition mantra. In fact Liberal leader, Will Hodgman, is so concerned it could cost the Liberals government at the March 15 poll. Wait for Coalition spin on how their alternative internet broadband network is working just great in their trial sites of Woy Woy NSW & Epping near Melbourne...just before state elections without time for independent validation!....continued
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Paul Taylor:
21 Feb 2014 5:47:02pm
Correction in first paragraph: 20 Feb 2014 should read 10 Feb 2014
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Paul Taylor:
21 Feb 2014 3:11:53pm
Continued.... The Tasmanian marketing mojo of CLEAN & GREEN is not only at serious risk of losing gloss under a Liberal government but voters also risk expanding the consumption tax revenue base & losing out to WA with calls to change the distribution of consumption tax receipts.
Over the last 12 months under both Labor & Coalition governments we have seen the $A fall from above parity with the $US to currently around 90 cents to $US. To put the impact of the carbon tax into context, a 1 cent fall in the Australian exchange rate with the $US has the same impact as the carbon tax on Australian export competitiveness; even if we put aside present & future global obligations on addressing man made global change.
A vote for the Coalition is a vote for PRIVATISATION. In my opinion Labor should be targeting the Coalition privatisation agenda as outlined by Federal Treasurer, Joe Hockey, where the major emphasis is on the privatisation of state government assets...intentions as clear as mud in the run up to the September 2013 Federal Election. In the QLD Redcliffe state by election I would be saying you voted out former Labor Premier Anna Bligh for privatising QLD Rail with the intent of investing in new productive infrastructure...what makes the Liberal National Party so special to deserve your vote when they are nationally orchestrating a case to do the same ( QLD included).
According to economist, Professor Quiggin, power price rises have been the steepest in Victoria & South Australia where government electricity assets were sold off during the 1990s. Reliability in delivering electricity has also fallen in Victoria. Privatisation has seen funds diverted away from operational costs to marketing & management with consumers also paying indirectly on higher interest rates on private sector debt...the same logic could be applied to the potential government sale of market leader in private medical insurance Medibank Private, after you account for the loss of revenue in dividend payments to the federal government. In NZ they privatised most of their government assets in the 1990s many of which they have since been forced to buy back.
Labor should also stop fence sitting on large scale thermal coal mining in QLD & instead opt for the alternative of value adding 3 fold iron ore , coking coal & gas in promoting the privately funded EWLP $45billion Project Iron Boomerang...a grand internationally recognised revenue creating project which traverses northern Australia from WA to QLD. Even the Coalition Northern Territory Chief Minister feels the current federal government is focusing too much on QLD. If Labor or Greens win an extra Senate seat in WA Clive Palmer & PUP might even consider transitioning to an ETS if it benefits his iron ore interests in WA.
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Ant:
21 Feb 2014 4:12:29pm
I am rather disturbed that a senior political journalist would choose to ignore a jurisdiction and condemn us to wall to wall LNP governments. Almost as disturbing is that so far only two commentators have called out this error. The ACT is represented by a progressive government and will be until at least 2016. And just to clarify the ACT is part of 'real' Australia, the people here pay tax, go to work (mostly not as public servants) and we have to put up with being blamed by everyone else for the crap decisions the politicians sent by the rest of the country here make. As an aside, Canberrans are the least represented people in federal parliament.
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old67:
21 Feb 2014 4:12:49pm
The only thing the Australian people are collecting is a recession from the LNP and Bill has nothing to worry about with the garbage that the LNP comes out with. Since the election they have done bugger all for the country.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 7:30:39pm
They've upset the Indonesians and now, apparently, the Chinese too.
That's got to count for something.
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Colmery:
21 Feb 2014 4:29:06pm
Australian Electoral Commission head Ed Killesteyn has resigned. He has acted honourably albeit that he personally is not responsible. This is a principle in our system of government. Indeed, it applies more to ministers than heads of departments.
The media should remind us of these principles whenever they apply - it doesn't and that is a critical failing.
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Paul Taylor:
21 Feb 2014 4:35:35pm
Job insecurity, the NBN, touted changes to Medicare, a manufacturing industry in decline, cost of living pressures & the lack of an articulated & believable plan for transition from a raw resource dominated economy subjected to cyclical ups & downs of the global market will be key factors to the outcome of upcoming elections. How will manufacturing workers vote (GMH, Toyota, Rio Tinto, Alcoa) when they learn....aware of all the spin in between... that their fate was sealed back in early December 2013 when Trade Minister Robb negotiated a Free Trade Deal with South Korea made more palatable with the demise of car manufacturing in Australia, ratified on the very day,10 Feb 2014, Toyota said it was exiting car making in Australia?
Would you trust a federal Coalition government to not broaden the Goods & Services TAX (GST) base if they won both Tasmania & SA in the state elections in March 2014? Forget the weasel words about the ACT being run by Labor & the Greens or the real possibility of the Coalition losing state government in Victoria toward the end of 2014...the current global & domestic climate of doubt & uncertainty gives greater strength to the peddlers of gloom, doom & the push for austerity & for a necessary sunrise implementation date in the 2014 May Federal Budget for a broadening of the GST base that hits people on welfare, retirees, the unemployed & low to middle income earners the hardest.
A state like Tasmania, suffers from the tyranny of distance from international markets. In Tasmania voters can see the benefits of National Broadband Network (NBN) fibre to the home...both to individuals & business...rather than a patchwork of second rate cost cutting alternatives like NBN fibre to the node. There are now sufficient businesses & individual households in Tasmania with access to NBN fibre to the home to draw comparisons with the Coalition alternative. Who wants to pay up to $5,000 to connect fast internet broadband ( handling BIG data at speed) because the current federal Coalition government has abandoned the former federal Labor government commitment to Tasmania. Anger is growing in Tasmania against the Coalition alternative on internet broadband coverage; one contractor affected by Coalition plans to stop the fibre rollout for the NBN fears millions of spent on equipment have been wasted...but wait a minute is not fixing waste a Coalition mantra. In fact Liberal leader, Will Hodgman, is so concerned it could cost the Liberals government at the March 15 poll. Wait for Coalition spin on how their alternative internet broadband network is working just great in their trial sites of Woy Woy NSW & Epping near Melbourne...just before state elections without time for independent validation!....continued
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RGG:
21 Feb 2014 4:43:03pm
We live in strange times under a government that has two opposition leaders but no Prime Minister.
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Sharyn:
21 Feb 2014 4:46:02pm
Maybe Tony Abbott is hoping West Australians will see the value in paying for $4 billion dollars worth of surveillance aircraft, by having them contribute $6 to the kitty every time they get sick.
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Zany:
21 Feb 2014 5:11:43pm
Quite simply the LNP has given Labor so much ammunition that if it can't destroy the incompetent abbot government it doesn't deserve to lead.
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Kagey One:
21 Feb 2014 7:39:00pm
Unfortunately, the Batman and Robin of mediaworld (Rupert and Andrew) are on the side of evil and have enormous clout among large numbers of unsuspecting voters.
Credit for the last election lies partly with them. I see no sign of the next election being different.
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Gary - Balwyn:
21 Feb 2014 5:40:09pm
Everybody is still saying that PUP will support the government after July. I ask again, what will Clive Palmer want in return for his vote. We know he owes the tax office a substantial sum for the carbon tax, will that be waived? He is a business man and will know what his is worth. Standby
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