Kia Ora Gaza

Roger Fowler from Kia Ora Gaza was in Gaza and Eqypt in November. He carried out a series of interviews with Palestinians. This is the last of those interviews. To read more of them, which combined provide great insight into the Palestinian struggle, scroll down the page. 

Dr Yousuf Rizqa, political advisor to PM Ismail Haniyeh

Dr Yousuf Rizqa: I welcome you to Gaza, and I hope that this meeting will help build up support and understanding, not only in New Zealand, but also other countries in the world.

Roger Fowler: How do you see the historic changes in the region impacting on Palestine and ending the siege?

With the fall of the dictatorships, Israel has been losing many of its friends. With democracy and freedom of expression, the Palestine cause has become important. With the new government in Egypt many voices talk about the rights of the Palestinians. For Palestinians to retrieve their rights, there needs to be cooperation from the people of other countries.

How do you see the prospects for opening up the Rafah crossing?

Between 1948 and 1967 Egypt was in direct contact with the Gaza Strip. After 1967 Israel connected the Gaza Strip to its political and economical entity. After Hamas won the elections in 2006, Israel imposed a cultural, economical, physical and financial siege on the Gaza Strip, and also dominated the borders, the air and the water. Gaza has 6 crossing points. Five of them are with Israel,  and one with Egypt at the Rafah crossing. All the crossings with Israel are closed, except sometimes they allow in humanitarian things. The Rafah crossing was open for passengers and some humanitarian aid from abroad. Israel transferred all their crossings to the one crossing in the south near Egypt, for food and other aid. It was not designed for this amount of traffic serving 1.8 million people, as its basically a military crossing. Because of this situation the Hamas government asked Egypt to allow goods through the Rafah crossing and to build a free trading zone. The common interest for Gaza and Egypt was estimated at $US3billion annually. With the opening of the Rafah crossing and a free trade zone, many changes would happen for the Gaza Strip, including easing the conditions, running factories and industries, help the imports and exports of goods, and reduce the rate of unemployment that has reached 30%.

So bringing goods through Egyptian ports would make it easier to reduce the tax on these goods, and reduce the prices, and would allow people to have a dignified life. It would also be easier to receive aid from the international community. This would transform the country from a consuming one to a productive one. Egypt promised that they would study this application, but there are obstacles to making it happen.

What are the prospects for overcoming these obstacles?

Its linked to the stability and the democratic situation in Egypt. If Egypt has a parliament that has representatives of all the political factions who believe that Palestinians should have rights, this would help the President reducing the time to improve the situation at the crossing.  So due to the complications in Egypt, we believe in the gradual steps to work things out for the future. Local obstacles should be removed, for example problems of fuel and electrical supplies is a technical issue. Egypt exports electricity to 8 countries. The whole of Palestine could be one of these counties. Hopefully this can happen soon.

Another problem is the water problem – there’s not enough desalination of water as described in the UN report that Gaza wont be liveable in by 2020. There are inadequate water supplies for human use.  Many European and rab coutries have offered to grant Palestine enough money to establish seawater desalination plants – but Mubarak prevented this from happening. We hope that Morsi will allow the building of these desalination plants. The next step will be trading through the Rafah crossing, followed by a free trade zone. We can’t predict when these steps will take place, it depends on actions.

Is the Hamas government pushing for these steps to happen?

Yes, we have clear and determined goals, and the Egyptians want to support the Gaza Strip. And after reconciliation between the Palestinians, this will help improve the situation.

What are the prospects for reconciliation?

The reconciliation will one day definitely happen, and all the troubles and obstacles between the two factions will vanish, but I can not estimate a time. And hopefully Egypt will help facilitate this and make it come true.

How will the visit of the Shiek of Qatar help open up Gaza?

Among all these complications, the Qatar visit is a courageous one contributing and supporting (Gaza’s reconstruction).  All the Qatar projects are humanitarian, including paving roads, building houses for the poor, and hospitals, and schools – they offered $US450 million.

Gaza needs 60,000 houses. Qatar is offering 3,000 houses. We hope that other Arab countries ill come and help too. This will help European countries who stopped their grants for humanitarian projects when Hamas won the elections.

Is it likely that fuel supplies will come in through Egypt?

The ability to import fuel through Rafah is there, and its cheap and easy, but it requires the approval of both Egypt and Israel. The Camp David treaty allows Gaza to import fuel through Egypt. Israeli fuel is three times the price of fuel imported through Egypt. Palestinians should have the right to import fuel at the least cost.

What is the most effective way for internationals to support Palestine?

International activists offer very valuable support for the Palestinian people. The best way to support is to step up pressure on their governments to support Palestine. Also raising the awareness of the people in their countries, and combating the Israeli propaganda. These would be important ways to support the Palestinians.

Wafaa H. Aburahma
Translator and English Teacher at the British Academy of Languages, Gaza City

Roger Fowler: How are the historic changes in the region impacting on Palestine and the prospects for opening up the Rafah crossing?

Wafaa H. Aburahma: Actually I’m not that optimistic at all, because all the sides are very, very stubborn; the Hamas government here, Fatah, and the Israelis. As everyone says – the situation in Egypt is not good. It’s even more complicated than the situation here in Gaza.

We Gazans live in much better circumstances than the Egyptians. It will take them (the Egyptians) at least 5 years to reform everything over again.

So I think the situation will remain much the same, with some slight changes, but no comprehensive changes. Israel will continue the very same attacks with killings, violence, assassinations, shooting, shelling… and the Palestinians will not surrender.

The Palestinians are one of the most stubborn nations on earth – especially the people in the Gaza Strip.

As for the Rafah crossing – I wish that it becomes more open for the Palestinians, and the current restrictions are removed.

Dr Adnan Abuamer
Specialist in Israeli Affairs, Political Analyst, Professor at Al Ommah University, Gaza

Roger Fowler: How are the historic changes in the region impacting on Palestine and ending the siege on Gaza?

The big regional changes were not just internal affairs of those countries, but a Palestinian affair also. These revolutions had a big influence on Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians had great hope with the collapse of the dictators, especially in Egypt. Hamas had a honeymoon with the collapse of Mubarak, while the government in he West Bank had a funeral. The influence for Gaza was positive, but without their hopes coming true immediately. The Gazan felt that the Mubarak dictatorship was imposing the siege on Gaza on behalf of Israel. Both had a mutual interest to ending Hamas rule. They agreed to just let Gaza subsist with minimal supplies.

With the collapse of Mubarak, the Palestinians hoped that all these obstacles would vanish, and they would face a prosperous future. Many restrictions on movement of people and food have since been lifted. Now many solidarity delegations visit Gaza. The visit by the Sheik of Qatar would never have happened under Mubarak. Many Palestinians feel that Egypt has saved them from drowning.

What are the prospects of the further opening up of the Rafah crossing and the flow of goods, and an end to the siege?

Rafah is not a trading crossing. Goods usually come through Israeli controlled crossings. That’s why there has been a lot of talk about establishing a free trade zone. Gaza wanted this very much, to get rid of Israeli control. Egypt gave initial approval, but the devil came out in the details.  Israel and the West Bank government objected as they would be deprived of their taxes, and Hamas would be seen to get stronger and collect the income. The other devil was in Cairo; the Egyptians experienced severe economic trouble, and they feared being responsible for 1.7 million people if Gaza was pushed towards Egypt with a free trade zone. This could transform Gaza into an entity  apart from the West Bank, which would prevent reconciliation.

For all of these reason Egypt asked that the Free Trade Zone be delayed. If reconciliation happens and Palestine becomes one state, they will discuss it then.

Dr Mahmoud Alhirthani, Chairman, Centre for Political and Development Studies, Professor of Translation and Intercultural Studies, Al Aqsa University, Gaza City.

Roger Fowler: How are the historic changes in the Middle East impacting on Palestine and the breaking of the siege?

Dr Mahmoud Alhirthani: While the ground is still shaking, no one can predict what will happen.

When the Egyptians stood up against Mubarak in January 2011, they had only one demand of him: not to give the country to his son. It didn’t erupt to topple him, or change the whole regime. But because he was so stubborn, and he didn’y understand history, and he tried to stand against the people’s will – it turned out to be a big revolution. So it was a big change.

I think with the election of Morsi, so far it is not clear, but people are still hopeful that Morsi’s Egypt will do something for Palestine.

When we heard the news about Morsi’s letter to Israeli President Peres, and how touching and friendly it was – all Palestinians were so disappointed – one leading Egyptian intellectual wrote an apology letter to the Palestinians on behalf of the Egyptian people. None of the explanations for Morsi’s letter were convincing to the Palestinians. It was humiliating. But getting rid of the military council was good. So sometimes we fluctuate between hope and despair. But I have to be optimistic.  We don’t have any other option. We have faced so many disappointments.

The big changes of the Arab Spring feed into the prospects of end of the Israeli occupation and the end of Israel.

But I think Egypt’s moves towards breaking the siege is too slow. And I think the obstacles to breaking the siege are with the huge Egyptian bureaucracy. The obstacles are not really that huge. Why don’t you (Morsi) make a small move? It is in your hands, you can do it easily – remember one reason for Morsi’s election victory was that he openly said; “I will lift the siege off Gaza if I win” That was his promise to the Egyptian people. This is why I feel angry. It’s so easy, and he would get credit from everybody. He should not be afraid of the bureaucracy.

Adnan Abu-Hasna, Media Advisor and Spokesperson for UNWRA

Roger Fowler: How are the historic changes in the region impacting on the prospects for Palestine and opening up Gaza to the world?

The Arab Spring and the changes in Egypt have given great hope to Palestinians. Some people understand the difficulties that the Egyptian government is facing, others don’t understand and they expect dramatic change with access out and in to Gaza and movement of goods. But I think in time they realise that the Egyptian government is restricted by international agreements.

For people here, attaining a good, dignified life and caring for their families and education is a priority. Gaza is a unique place and often a dangerous place, because the negative energy inside Gazans is very destructive. So we, in UNWRA, are telling the Gazans that you are not forgotten by the international community.

I will never forget what US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, said in 2003 , that “Gaza is the key to stability in the Middle East.” After the war on Gaza and the Arab Spring, you can see that it is true. So if you don’t succeed in directing that energy in a positive way, it will be very destructive. Because, very simply, the question you are facing all the time is: there is no tomorrow in Gaza. So we are trying to create a tomorrow – to give people hope that you might have a good future, a good job, and raise your children in a good life. They call Gaza a zone of poverty and war. So there are very complicated and mixed issues here. So you try to survive and find your way.

What are your views on the prospects or opening up the border at Rafah?

We strongly support giving people access to move in and out of Gaza. It helps to reduce the pressure, including the psychological pressure on people. The trade issues are being discussed, and UNWRA can support any solution they reach. But the situation can not continue like it is (with the siege), the pressure is great, and we are afraid it will have a negative affect, and the accumulation of pressure, and frustration with no horizons or prospects, that there will be an explosion of extremism. What will happen? You can’t predict anything.

So all of these things have to be taken into consideration by the decision makers to find a human solution. People must be able to live a dignified life. Give people hope in aspects of life.

How do you achieve that?

First of all you have to admit that Gaza is an occupied place, by Israel. The blockade should be lifted 100%, allowing imports and, most important: exports. Gaza shouldn’t be just a consuming place. 80% of Gazans depend on humanitarian aid. Here in UNWRA, we are feeding 800,000 people in Gaza regularly. We have 250,000 kids in our UNWRA schools. We had 5million visits to our clinics last year. It’s unbelievable. We know the statistics, and it’s really frightening. The psychological pressures, and the divorce rates are very high – its frightening. Are they waiting for the next war to solve these problems?

What are you views on the prospects of unification between Hamas and Fatah?

I think it is very necessary to reach reconciliation, because (the divisions) affects the people of Gaza very badly, it causes divisions within families, and prevents Gaza from achieving real developments from the PA – paving streets, rebuilding infrastructure etc. The delay of reconciliation causes the delay in the lifting of the blockade on Gaza, because the Palestinians cant speak with one voice. Having one government will be very helpful to solve all issues, economically, socially and politically. So I support reconciliation in the interests of the people.

Can you see reconciliation happening?

No, I don’t. It is a wish, a hope.

What is the most effective way internationals can support Palestine?

From the UNWRA point of view – there should be more pressure applied to lift the siege on Gaza.

What is going on in Gaza is a real disaster. We published a report just one month ago, which asks the question: will Gaza be a liveable place in 2020 or not? Complete evidence shows that, what is going on in Gaza is a real catastrophe, and all parties should cooperate to stop that expected catastrophe. The sewage system is extremely damaged, and the electricity cuts, result in 70million litres of untreated water flowing straight into the sea each day, and also that waste water goes into the underground aquifers. This results in irreversible damage that will take 300 years to recover from. Salty and dirty water – you can imagine what kind of diseases affect the people. Blood diseases, for example, are about three times higher than in Egypt.

What is going on here is unacceptable, and internationals should increase the pressure on Israel to lift the blockade, end the occupation, the incursions and military actions – this is the core of the problem – the occupation.

So help us get rid of the blockade and the occupation –  and let the people here know that they are not forgotten.

Dr Alaa Abu-Taha
Specialist in International Law & International Relationships

Roger Fowler: How are the historic changes and trends in the Middle East impacting on the prospects for Palestine and ending the siege?

The nature of the Palestinian cause is affected by any major changes in the region. So the Arab Spring has affected the Palestinian cause. The Arab Spring is a natural outcome of the humanitarian aspirations and the lack of freedoms imposed on the Arab citizens.

So the primary result of the Arab Spring is the collapse of the previous systems and relationships with Palestine. The Islamic movement now dominates in these countries. The most important country affecting Palestine is Egypt. Egypt has a very important role both in the times of war, and negotiations.

To maintain their privileges, the Mubarak regime formed a ‘peace treaty’ with Israel and the US, and then pressured the Palestinians to accept all the conditions. When Hamas took over in Gaza, Israel classified it as ‘an unacceptable entity’ and imposed the siege on the Gaza Strip.

With the Arab Spring and the Islamic political dominance in the region, Hamas had high expectations for breaking the siege. But these expectations didn’t match reality. Egypt has commitments and responsibilities, so the siege has not been broken, only the humanitarian situation has been eased. The Palestinians now shoulder a big responsibility to end the division between Fatah and Hamas. The world is moving with big changes, and Israeli doubles its occupation and siege, while the Palestinians are busy with the internal division.

What are the prospects for ending this division?

I’m not optimistic. There are big ideological differences between the two factions. Fatah is for negotiations only, Hamas believe in all forms of resistance. They share many things in common. But there is no mature determination for reconciliation. But we have never had unity before. During the times of the PLO there was a chance for unity, but it didn’t eventuate. We had worse, serious internal conflicts, including killings. We can resolve the differences between Fatah and Hamas, but it is difficult, as there is no serious intention for reconciliation. Each side focuses on their own area and to maintain their power and privileges.  There is no willingness to compromise.

Israel exploits this division and continues to implement their Zionist vision and deny Palestinian rights. It seems to be their intention to allow a temporary Hamas state in Gaza that they consider as an enemy ‘terrorist entity’ that they can attack as part of the ‘war on terrorism’; and also divide the Palestinian areas in the West Bank into marginalised cantons, and annex uninhabited areas, create more settlements in sensitive areas, and take over Jerusalem.

This can only be resolved by raising Palestinian awareness of the dangers of the Zionist project, and all Palestinians unite their efforts for Palestine and for the right to live in peace. Resistance is not a thing Palestinians seek, it has been imposed on them. 

What is the most effective way that internationals can support Palestine?

There are many ways: By the humanitarian support of the steadfastness of the Palestinian people and their existence on their lands, and improving the conditions of the Palestinians so they do not reach the point of desperation.

Support the basic rights of the Palestinians for development, peace, security, freedom, the collective right to self determination and form their own government.

Support all efforts for co-existence and dialogue towards reaching reconciliation among all the different Palestinian political parties.

Pressure Israel, by all possible means.

Help improve the conditions of life in Palestine with regular visits to Palestinian territories, explaining the Palestinian views regarding seeking peace, and counter the stereotype propaganda image of Palestinians as ‘terrorists who hate Jews’. Palestinians have a great desire to peacefully coexist, and have a great history and culture of co-existence with Jews. Is has been said that Jews have never lived in peace in history except under the umbrella of Islamic countries. There is no enmity between Muslims and Jews. The enmity is with the Zionist project that tries to take the rights of Palestinians. Standing against Zionism should not be a just a Palestinian duty, it should be an international responsibility – because it is the direct reason for this continuing crisis, because it is a racist organisation that doesn’t accept any rights for Palestinians on this land. 

Dr Kamalain Sha’ath, President, Islamic University of Gaza

In spite of all our hardships, we believe that education is a must for our society to develop. That’s why the literacy rate in Palestine is the highest in the Arab world at about 95%. And we have students studying for degrees all over the world, including one in New Zealand.

We also encourage continuing education in the community at large to develop a wide range of skills.

Roger Fowler: What are you views on how the big changes in the region are impacting on Palestine?

This gives hope for the people, that the surrounding area is more supportive and more friendly, and this will enhance our situation for Palestine.