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Orwell seems to have been more like a prophet than an author these days.

It is all part of being controlled by The European Superstate and there isn't much you can do about it.

Don't be surprised, be interested. This level of attention indicates that you have passed close to the vested interests that control political and economic power. Treat it as a piece of data on what the true nature of our system is. It's what's known as a "tell".

I wonder how many of us on here are on some secret database somewhere?

When the government and police start viewing and treating the public as the enemy than you know there is a vey serious issue of collective paranoia at the heart of government. In which case we all need to start worrying.

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Oh, are you still grizzling about being stopped by the police? Get over it, precious.

Yeah that's it.

WOOOOOSH - oh look, it's the point going straight over your head.

It's a great pity they can't put as much effort into dealing with crimes like burglary ,fraud and murder.

I suppose it's just easier intimidating innocent people, even if they are exercising a democratic right to protest.

Why should they actually do REAL police work? they still get paid.

Admit it Mark, you'd be pissed if you were not on a secret database, wouldn't you?

Given problems with drunks around 3am on Saturday and Sunday mornings in MK central and oyther night club districts nationwide, why are police wasting their time on building databases on protesters?

The police story when chided for their lack of presence on the street is they are required to do masses of paperwork, which they detest. But it seems some are so keen on this work that they are creating databases on innocent people. Still they probably prefer it to patrolling on a rainy night.

The driving force is probably the police unions, led by the ACPO, whose members now include Chief Constables, their Deputy CCs, anbd Assistant CCs. Each of which has a staff of uniformed minions. I remember when the police had a Chief Constable and a deputy. The rest of the force were out there dealing with crime, and getting to know the manor.

Then of course the ACPO was a minnow among unions and professional associations. Today it has the responsibility of maintaining its members jobs like any other union. So find them "important jobs" to do, even if those jobs are of dubious legality, and acheive nothing in controlling crime.

Its time there was a thorough overhaul of policing, and combed out the nonsensical and unecesary jobs. Those released can either quit the service, or get out there and do some real police work. If sufficient among the senior ranks choose the first options, then a substantial saving may accrue to the taxpayer. The police precept I pay is more than double the Fire service precept, and over 50% of what I pay my unitary council for education and all other services. We need an HMI not of ex coppers, but accountants, lawyers and members of the public. Policing is not rocket science, but has a long history of inappropriate conduct at all levels.

Well sorry Mark, we love your work but creating all that disorder is against the public interest. The only thing Britain has left to export is weapons and dodgy hedge funds. And I mean really, if those chaps at BAE and their friends were selling weapons to the wrong people, our government, the sleepless defender of liberty and democracy around the world, would surely step in?

.........................................
...
.

(In all seriousness, I'll be taking full advantage of my EU passport whilst it lasts.)

Doth I protest too much?

In modern English, Does I protest too much?

Either we have an Elizabethan Ali G here: or we have another subeditor who should be taken out and ... maybe not shot, pelted with roses?.

Mark, you're obviously the person who is preventing the boys and girls in blue from spending their valuable time arresting expense-fiiddling MPs. Behave yourself, please!

I hope that idiot Charles Clarke is reading this. Politicians are definitely taking the wee wee out of the police on this one.

I suggest suing them under the Data Protection Act for a real piss take,when you can't see the data held on you.

Oh CO11, if you're reading this, make sure it's not on overtime. There's a recession on.

As usual a little bit of perspective is required here. For a start this is nothing new, the police have been using spotters for years and years. I remember being filmed and photographed at a CND demos in the early 80s. It's antagonistic and somewhat pointless but it's not the start of a New World Order.

Secondly, looking at it from the police's point of view. Their job is to allow perfectly legal events like arms fairs (no matter how revolting we might find them) to progress without being disrupted, so they have a list of people who might be likely to cause that disruption. Just like they have at football matches to prevent violence and the bloke in the supermarket has so that he stop various n'er do wells nicking his Diamond White.

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Not at all surprised. Though I am greatly troubled.

I mean, Milton wrote Areopagitica over 350 years ago and we still are no closer to achieving real freedom of speech and the right to protest.

We live in an absurd world, don't we? People campaigning against the arms trade being treated as threats to national security and snooped upon. When in reality they have more wisdom, humanity and bravery than any of those pointing the camera at them.
It's the old chestnut - Quis custiodet ipsos custiodes?

The police certainly don't follow orders after weighing up the pros and cons (maybe we're all cons to them), they just follow their instructions. For many in the force, as in other walks of life, dissent is a bar to advancement and acceptance. In a sense those front-line officers are in a trap of their own making and deserve pity.

Who are they accountable to? Us, or the crown?. We ask them and their bosses remind them.

This' policing political dissent, pure and simple. Gestapo bosses are chuckling with laughter at contemporary English obsession with profiling citizenry and building vast databases.

In the words of Bill Hicks:

"Go back to bed, Britain, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed Britain, your government is in control. Here, here's X-Factor. Watch this, shut up, and go back bed to Britain, here is X-Factor, here is 56 channels of this, and much more reality TV shite! Watch those fucking irritating twins singing, wishing you could bang their fucking skulls together, but can only vote them out, while some conning TV company gains at your expense. And congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go Britain - you are free to do what we'll tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!"

They say no chance of revolution, but wheels turn. I live in hope that the British people are intelligent and wise enough to see through the hypocrisy and lies of our political and economic classes. If not...well how do I put it.....we're fucked.

The police have been photographing every demonstration for years. Have you only just realised this. Utterly contemptible, but best to show contempt by saying "cheese".

Secondly, looking at it from the police's point of view. Their job is to allow perfectly legal events like arms fairs (no matter how revolting we might find them) to progress without being disrupted

And citizens in a democracy have the right to non-violent protest against such events. And they should have the right not to be 'targeted' by the police unless they have been convicted of violence.

The very fact that the majority of postings accuse Mark Thomas of over-reacting tells me that we have become far too accepting of police & intelligence services spying on citizens of this country.

the police probably set up the EDP to get the muslims out on the street so they could film them.

meant EDL

@ ntrifle

"so they have a list of people who might be likely to cause that disruption. Just like they have at football matches to prevent violence..."

You Sir are a dupe. You have conflated a legal and admirable activity (non-violent protest) with an illegal and loathsome activity (football hooliganism). Try again.

evidently us ≠ them

ah well, such it is and such it has been for a long time

domestic extremist is good though, it makes me think of obsessive vacuuming and lots of cats.

No, Henryb63, you were right the first time:

English Defence Pillocks.

Mark

Well, what can I say? All we can do is to keep challenging them through the courts. If anyone wants to set up an Ariane Sherine-type fund for fighting these gits through the courts, I will contribute.

May I suggest you make a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act?

I can't believe the Ukip/BNP idiots who imagine the EU is to blame for everything are blaming it for this too. What do I mean - of course I believe it. They are idiots after all. Ask who benefits, always the key. The free market corporatocracy which has destroyed democracy in this country and its imperial overlord the US, of course. Obviously, unless you are a racist, europhile bigot of course.

Sheeesh, last week the state couldn't get its act together to humiliate Nick Griffin, and this week they can't even spy on us without getting caught out.

They are SO incompetent!

@natbankofuganda

I don't think Bill Hicks said that... I'm pretty sure he died before the X-Factor started...

Covenant, what he actually said was:

Go back to bed, America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, your government is in control. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!

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What is 'non-violent direct action'? Is it breaking into a factory and damaging machinery to the cost of £300,000, as the Decommissioners did in Brighton? Is it breaking into and attempting to shut down power stations, with incalculable consequences if the attacks succeed? Is it occupying runways to stop airports, with potential danger to protesters and airport users alike?

Or is it just a bit of a laugh with drums and whistles, and a bit of pushing and shoving with the cops?

I'd just like to know, so that I can work out who it is the police shouldn't be keeping a watch on.

@Peter Jackson

I'd just like to know, so that I can work out who it is the police shouldn't be keeping a watch on.

Anyone who hasn't committed a crime. It's not rocket science.

@ garetko

Quis custiodet ipsos custiodes?

I was jusr about to say that and thanks to copy and paste I can.

I mean I'm on this domestic list and all I said to mrsbill40 is its your turn to put the kettle on.....

No police, secret or otherwise, should operate without proper accountability.

Get a grip Mark, this is a meaningless statement that has been made countless times over the years just about everywhere on the planet.
One of the primary functions of a police force, anywhere, is to protect power and privilege, and if push comes to shove, by whatever means are necessary.

They do have a hobby function of occasionally apprehending the dipshit who stole your car or whatever, and their training in kicking ass occasionally comes in handy with drunks and football fans, but that's not the primary reason they exist.

Police forces everywhere are immune to the accountability required of ordinary citizens. The entire command and control dynamic depends on that fact, it depends on the notion that "we take care of our own".
This includes clandestine surveillance and also out and out thuggery. For cops to be willing to bust heads (and they must be, in order to fulfill their primary function) they must have the sense that they will be individually protected from the consequences you or I would likely suffer. It's systemic.
Even specially created oversight boards and the like will always be subservient to this dynamic. That's systemic too.

Appalling, but there it is.

Briar

unless it was a freudian slip you may have meant europhobe in your entirley imcomprehensible and incoherant rant.

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I'd be interested to know if being on their database shows up on the hearsay and gossip report (sorry, enhanced CRB check).

You could then be in the interesting position of being refused a job as a teacher or social worker because you've previously protested against violence and torture.

@willyrobinson and @voon

I was just trying to work out what the rules were. I remember the Guardian slagging off MI5 for negligence for not following up connections that could have tracked the 7/7 bombers, although they had not committed a crime.

"While being wanted outside the arms fair, I was legitimately inside researching a book on the subject, and uncovered four companies illegally promoting "banned" torture equipment."

It's fortunate the police were foiled in their attempts to ignore such crimes. Perhaps they'll have better luck next time?

One day soon, I fully expect the police will bring a prosecution against the police for wasting police time. Should make for an interesting court case.

"These people and activities usually seek to prevent something from happening or to change legislation or domestic policy, but attempt to do so outside of the normal democratic process"

Given that we are told elsewhere on CIF that this is the police definition of a domestic extremist, a definition that serves their purposes apparently,
would anyone like to join me in asking the very obvious question:
- are lobbyists for overseas powers, are press magnates of all origen, are ex PM's, are overseas governments' operatives etc etc on their list of 'domestic extremists'?
If they say of course not, if you say of course not, then I submit that this ' definition' has been made up by a panel of bespoke lawyers to 'allow' the police to pursue a domestic policing policy put in place by the elected government but without the approval of the people.

And this is getting close to what more and more people are complaining about: a creep towards a police state under a pink faced shroud of 'democracy'.
It is what happens when ideology, technology, both blind and blindly applied, are used in the place of intelligent and dynamic government.

Sort of, well, we do have problems, we can't fix them, they are probably going to get worse ( subtext we will not be applying dynamic social management but propbably bringing in some form of globalisation driven downturn big time ) so let's get geared to 'corall' society where it is needed/will be needed.

And to do this the guys have to create the legal space in which to start the process. Oh, and by doing so give a very clear policy message to industry : we will protect you rather than the people you are poisoning/ripping off, throwing onto the street etcetc delete where appropriate... and another to the people : we are against you now...we are protecting 'the state', 'industry' , big bucks' big willied B2 bombers, and bankers whatever and we wil be doing so against you at the request of the government, big bucks, industry, media whatever...with more and more legislation to enable us to do so.

It only goes to show what a terrible thing long running absolute majorities plus supine MP's enthralled by thier salries and expense can do for democracy.

N'est-il pas?

@breaking3

It is all part of being controlled by The European Superstate

This has got absolutely fuck all to do with the European Union. Your ridiculous comment adds nothing to the discussion, other than a reminder of the ignorance and irrelevance of tiny-minded Little Englander Europhobes.

How some little Englanders manage to turn an issue of covert police surveillance of law abiding citizens in the UK into an argument about "the European superstate" or the "EUSSR" is quite astonishing. It is the UK, not Germany, not France, not the Netherlands, that has no constitution, that does not separate executive and judicial powers. Constitutionally, the police services here are acting in a grey zone precisely because no constitution defines it. Maybe the police in Germany or France are doing the same, but they are acting outside of the law, and the victims of such illegal surveillance can defend their constitutional rights in the courts there. And yes, the German Federal Constitutional Court has repeatedly told the government where to get off and imposed limits on police powers, upholding the constitutional rights of its citizens. There is absolutely no comparable or equivalent instance in the UK to call the government to order.

There is nothing at all in the Lisbon or any other European treaty that allows for this to take place, let alone obliges its member states to carry out such surveillance. If anything, the European Human Rights Act is just about the best protection the British people have against such actions. Blaming the EU for this is rather missing the point. The UK is doing this quite on its own, once again, behind one of its many "red lines". Which country has the highest ratio of surveillance cameras per capita?... Yes, thought so.

Nothing new here - I've been on a police data base for thirty years or more - carnivaling against the NF in the late 1970s, rocking against the bomb in the early 1980s. The new technology (okay, maybe not so new, but new to me) may well make it easier for them, but it makes it a darn sight easier for us to know what they are up to. Democracy? Democracy thrives on this. Best not vote at all - it only encourages them.

@bill40

Kettling is another dodgy matter.

RepublicanStones,

Nowadays, Orwell is looking less a prophet, more a teacher.

It's like NuLab (a term I don't like to use, but it is mightily appropriate) use 1984 as their manual.

I went on the 'Vote for Trade Justice' march in Brighton a few years ago. A nice day out at the seaside for most people involved, with cards symbolically deposited in voting boxes calling on the politicians in the conference centre across the road to do more to change our unfair trading system.

I pointed out to my wife, who is South American, the police in dark clothes filming the march from balconies and along the route. She freaked out, having grown up in a dictatorship where people were hauled away and tortured and sometimes killed for protesting.

Everyone else took it in their stride of course, because the police were just doing their job and we do live in a democracy after all.

"suspect a" looks kinda phitt, imho...