Taxes

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Ron Paul supports the elimination of the income tax and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). He asserts that Congress had no power to impose a direct income tax and has introduced legislation to repeal of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, which was ratified on February 3, 1913.

An income tax is the most degrading and totalitarian of all possible taxes. Its implementation wrongly suggests that the government owns the lives and labor of the citizens it is supposed to represent. Tellingly, “a heavy progressive or graduated income tax” is Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto, which was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and first published in 1848.

To provide funding for the federal government, Ron Paul supports excise taxes, non-protectionist tariffs, massive cuts in spending.

Ron Paul discusses the income tax and the “FAIR Tax” in May 2007:

On November 20, 2008 Ron Paul said in a New York Times / Freakonomics interview:

“I want to abolish the income tax, but I don’t want to replace it with anything. About 45 percent of all federal revenue comes from the personal income tax. That means that about 55 percent — over half of all revenue — comes from other sources, like excise taxes, fees, and corporate taxes.

We could eliminate the income tax, replace it with nothing, and still fund the same level of big government we had in the late 1990s. We don’t need to “replace” the income tax at all. I see a consumption tax as being a little better than the personal income tax, and I would vote for the Fair-Tax if it came up in the House of Representatives, but it is not my goal. We can do better.”

On May 7, 2001, Ron Paul wrote the following column:

The Case Against the Income Tax

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker’s paycheck. In the late 1800s, when Congress first attempted to impose an income tax, the notion of taxing a citizen’s hard work was considered radical! Public outcry ensued; more importantly, the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional. Only with passage of the 16th Amendment did Congress gain the ability to tax the productive endeavors of its citizens.

Yet don’t we need an income tax to fund the important functions of the federal government? You may be surprised to know that the income tax accounts for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Only 10 years ago, the federal budget was roughly one-third less than it is today. Surely we could find ways to cut spending back to 1990 levels, especially when the Treasury has single year tax surpluses for the past several years. So perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all.

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process. It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior. The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses. All things considered, our Founders would be dismayed by the income tax mess and the tragic loss of liberty which results.

America without an income tax would be far more prosperous and far more free, but we must be prepared to fight to regain the liberty we have lost incrementally over the past century. I recently introduced “The Liberty Amendment,” legislation which would repeal the 16th Amendment and effectively abolish the income tax. I truly believe that real tax reform, reform that so many frustrated Americans desperately want, requires bold legislation that challenges the Washington mind set. Congress talks about reform, but the current tax debate really involves nothing of substance. Both parties are content to continue tinkering with the edges of the tax code to please various special interests. The Liberty Amendment is an attempt to eliminate the system altogether, forcing Congress to find a simple and fair way to collect limited federal revenues. Most of all, the Liberty Amendment is an initiative aimed at reducing the size and scope of the federal government.

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don’t believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress. Some sidestep Congress completely, bringing legal challenges questioning the validity of the tax code and the 16th Amendment itself. Ultimately, the Liberty Amendment could serve as a flashpoint for these millions of voices.

Ron Paul introduced the Liberty Amendment in 1998, 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2009. It is currently know as H. J. RES. 48 and has 2 cosponsors, Roscoe G. Bartlett (MD-6) and Don Young (AK). Here is the text of the proposed amendment:

Liberty Amendment

Section 1. The Government of the United States shall not engage in any business, professional, commercial, financial, or industrial enterprise except as specified in the Constitution.

Section 2. The constitution or laws of any State, or the laws of the United States, shall not be subject to the terms of any foreign or domestic agreement which would abrogate this amendment.

Section 3. The activities of the United States Government which violate the intent and purposes of this amendment shall, within a period of three years from the date of the ratification of this amendment, be liquidated and the properties and facilities affected shall be sold.

Section 4. Three years after the ratification of this amendment the sixteenth article of amendments to the Constitution of the United States shall stand repealed and thereafter Congress shall not levy taxes on personal incomes, estates, and gifts.’.

On April 30, 2009 Ron Paul introduced the Liberty Amendment with the following speech:

Ron Paul: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce the Liberty Amendment, which repeals the 16th Amendment, thus paving the way for real change in the way government collects and spends the people’s hard-earned money. The Liberty Amendment also explicitly forbids the Federal government from performing any action not explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

The 16th Amendment gives the Federal government a direct claim on the lives of American citizens by enabling Congress to levy a direct income tax on individuals. Until the passage of the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court had consistently held that Congress had no power to impose an income tax.

Income taxes are responsible for the transformation of the Federal government from one of limited powers into a vast leviathan whose tentacles reach into almost every aspect of American life. Thanks to the income tax, today the Federal government routinely invades our privacy, and penalizes our every endeavor.

The Founding Fathers realized that “the power to tax is the power to destroy,” which is why they did not give the Federal government the power to impose an income tax. Needless to say, the Founders would be horrified to know that Americans today give more than a third of their income to the Federal government.

Income taxes not only diminish liberty, they retard economic growth by discouraging work and production. Our current tax system also forces Americans to waste valuable time and money on compliance with an ever-more complex tax code. The increased interest in flat-tax and national sales tax proposals, as well as the increasing number of small businesses that question the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) “withholding” system provides further proof that America is tired of the labyrinthine tax code. Americans are also increasingly fed up with an IRS that continues to ride roughshod over their civil liberties, despite recent “pro-taxpayer” reforms.

Madam Speaker, America survived and prospered for 140 years without an income tax, and with a Federal government that generally adhered to strictly constitutional functions, operating with modest excise revenues. The income tax opened the door to the era (and errors) of Big Government. I hope my colleagues will help close that door by cosponsoring the Liberty Amendment.

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JosephSerrano 5 pts

Are you insinuating that progressive taxation is inherently Marxist? Tax rates for the top brackets were 90% during the Eisenhower administration. I don't remember him running under the CPUSA ticket. Following that same logic, Marx and Engels were pro-free trade as Ron Paul is. Does that make Dr. Paul a Marxist too?

w1945 20 pts

If we do not get Paul elected we can all go home. Paul needs to come out tomorrow and inform the American people that if he does not get the GOP nomination then he will run third party. He does not need to wait he needs to do it now. If he does that the Republicans will have no choice to vote for him in the Primary's because if they do not then they know they will end up with Obama for another four years. Paul will pull to many votes from them to win the general election. It is kind of like take it or leave it. My guess is they can not stand Obama and they will take it. I know I would.

bernardwoodworking 5 pts

The argument that the poor will suffer is simply unfounded. Presently thee is a food stamp program and other considerations to cause the poor to not have to pay taxes. Those programs would continue under the Sales Tax system and I believe universal consideration would have to be given for the big three: Food, Shelter and Clothing. And yes; someone would have to make sure people weren't exploiting that. Primary Residence, Basic clothing, Basic food stuffs. And yes someone or some committee will have to determine what "basic" is but that is how we govern anyway.

The only legitimate argument against removing the Income Tax and the IRS, is the loss of control over the actions and lives of the people of this nation. If anyone thinks that it is legitimate for free people in a nation that espouses the virtues of personal freedom to be oppressed by an overbearing government over the subject of taxation; you need to review your history. Taxation was one of the big issues before the Declaration of Independence was signed. If anyone dares to suggest we are properly "represented" by anyone when it comes to taxation in this country, today, you have a steep hill to climb...

winronpaul 5 pts

bernardwoodworking I Agree!! Ron Paul needs to start spreading the 0-0-0 plan! :)

bernardwoodworking 5 pts

I agree with the abolishment of the IRS and the Income tax and here is why:

The income tax carries with it an implied threat that transcends a person's desire to "play fair" and pay "what they owe". The fact is, you can be audited at any time and without just cause. Once those bears get into your "china closet" you're going to lose - one way or the other. The very knowledge that you cannot keep what you earn is what discourages commerce, not the sales tax. The sales tax is further discouragement in a world of income tax.

If there was only a sales tax, people would feel free to pay it or not pay it by simply controlling their purchasing habits. I don't believe people would purchase less because of it in a world without an income tax but would be energized to purchase because they knew they were keeping all they earned and could save/spend/live without fear of the Behemoth known as the IRS lurking in the shadows.

It is truly the only "fair" method of taxation because it removes the fear of government goons dragging you off to prison. (con't)

winronpaul 5 pts

If Ron Paul wants to win, we need him to have a plan for the 22 million people employed by the government.These people are not going to vote against their livelihood no matter how correct Ron Paul may be.

Also Before people can fight about our current issues in America, I believe we need to sit down and discuss where exactly we want to go first. We need a leadership with direction to actually go somewhere and use the current 22 million over paid government employees to help get there. Let's stop fighting over this world and have real dreams again.

Where are the great inventors and creators? Why are we fighting over oil and not inventing a new way all together? Why are we driving 2 ton vehicles and no direction into the future that is growing rapidly? Why are the people in England paying a carbon tax when their very own bodies depend on carbon? Why on the main page of the EPAs website are they spreading global warming when we have lived and adapted to much higher carbon levels present today? Just some thoughts, first decide where you want to go.

w1945 20 pts

If Ron comes out tomorrow and tells the American people that he will run third party if he does not win the GOP nomination then he will absolutely be the next president of the US, because he will walk away with the primary's. He is the only candidate who has rock solid support and who could pull this off. winronpaul

w1945 20 pts

As one person on here said, get rid of the Federal Reserve. So why get rid of it?

The fact that the Fed does not get "appropriations" from Congress basically means that it gets its money from Congress without congressional approval, by engaging in "open market operations." Here is how it works: When the government is short of funds, the Treasury issues bonds and delivers them to bond dealers, which auction them off. When the Fed wants to "expand the money supply" (create money), it steps in and buys bonds from these dealers with newly-issued dollars acquired by the Fed for the cost of writing them into an account on a computer screen. These maneuvers are called "open market operations" because the Fed buys the bonds on the "open market" from the bond dealers. The bonds then become the "reserves" that the banking establishment uses to back its loans. In another bit of sleight of hand known as "fractional reserve" lending, the same reserves are lent many times over, further expanding the money supply, generating interest for the banks with each loan. It was this money-creating process that prompted Wright Patman, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee in the 1960s, to call the Federal Reserve "a total money-making machine."

So now we can see why the crooks do not want to see the Fed go. By the way JP Morgan is at the top of the heap and Herman Cain was a member of the Kansas City Federal Reserve.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

ok 10% income tax off gross for everyone and 10% social security tax off gross tothose$200,000 and up and5% social security for %200,000 and below. social security 40,000 a year they are living like dogs now making them work longer, stealing jobs from youth. the higher we make retirement the more we atke away from our kids, we create welfare in our stupidity. no 1000 dollars per kid what the hell is that. if i worked 1 week i'm entitled to 6,000 for 6 kids plus welfare i just made more than $10 hr with benefits. where is the incentive to work.

david devore 6 pts

Our Income Tax yields the same amount as the interest on the national debt to the Federal Reaserve Bank. IF we can end the Fed AND dismiss their claim on us the revenue from the Income tax would be unneeded. Further cuts will only be necessary to account for the coming reduced returns from the Depression.

Ron Paul for Presdient 1!!!

juiceyjas23 5 pts

There is NOBODY like Ron Paul......NOBODY.....this is a man from the people, for the people. He is the man for this hour in OUR history. He stands alone on our sinking ship, still bailing out water, even while all his "friends" in Washington cast of in their lifeboats.......riding on the water of the people's backs, and the waves of their lies and corruption......back to their islands of prosperity. My friends it is time we jumped aboard with Dr. Paul. Repair the ship.....and sail away from the land of the elitists and their cronies. Lets set our sites on a new America run by a man who stands for truth, Justice, freedom and equality. It can be done. The matrix of lies can be broken if we all fight back as a collective.......because WE make up the matrix, WE shape the matrix. Wake up American. The time is NOW...............RON PAUL 2012!!!!!! and btw i'm Canadian. But I passionately believe in Ron Paul and his mission and I believe that this upcoming election could be a major turning point in history.

DylanKillington 6 pts

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/... ... Ron Paul has his sights on Cain and this article brings to light the vulnerability of Cain's tax plan. While it does place an extra burden on corporations, the track record suggests that the middle-income class would be further crippled with it's implementation.

myhealth 7 pts

Taxes has been always an issue all over the world, though we hate taxes but still we have to pay for it because it is for us IF it is use in a good way. lots of information I learn here and thanks!

My latest conversation: You need plenty of sleep to stay healthy

kenta.takao 6 pts

regisjbeakensr I speak english beyond fluently and have spoken it my whole life yet I don't understand one single comment of yours. Please learn to use punctuation and grammar properly.

jpm374 6 pts

First off, telling somebody to use proper grammar while writing an incorrectly punctuated sentence makes you look like a hypocritical moron. (The first letter of a sentence should always be capitalized, you should add a comma after "regisjbeakensr" and "life", and saying "one single" is just a little redundant) Also, Regis already stated that he has trouble communicating because of a stroke, which is a much better excuse than being a dumbass.

kenta.takao 6 pts

jpm374

Ok sorry I didn't read that comment from him faggot. It would just be useful if he had a person to help him write out his thoughts, that's all. So we can understand the points he is trying to make.

jpm374 6 pts

kenta.takao

Yeah, because getting a family member or hiring someone to help him write comments on Ron Paul's website is definitely practical. By the way, your last "sentence" isn't actually a sentence because you don't have a subject before "So".

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

everybody acts like texas is the greatest, but my income tax  10% off gross for everyone and do away with your 15% . my plans empoly all no welfare,unemployment, no education i have a great education plan, no foreign free money jobs come home troops come home earlier i layed out a plan that was incomplete saving 15 trillion dollars in 1 yr 15 items to go and counting. if anyone can beat it bring it on.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i'm dieing and want to make a difference. i challenge anyone for a better plan and cains first 2 9's are my 10's. last 9 is specifically for blacks. ok country is spelled with a r not county like my grammer critic put it. i'm more into solutions than periods and commas. i'm a redneck and blacks have stoled us dry. to think we owe them more is like eating your meal and complaining there is no more.you know i just think that i could run circles around the person putting me down. that really pisses me off.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i apologize for grammer and know i put sentences toether. i have alzheimers dementia and am glad i still can do this well. as for subjects if you try you can read it. i also have bipolar where my mind races.

heart pumps 20% of blood makes me dizzy . i haven't seen where your plans are. i'd be happy to read them. i can solve 14.5 trillion debt in one year. what can you do? and money can go where the people say in my plan. please debate me if you can do better if not don't put me down.i take 22 pills a day wear a defibilator have stent in main artery, heart desease, anxiety, and depression and i have written more solutions than anyone to this point. beat that i'm waiting none of my plans, your own.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i don''t even know all the loopholes but my plans don't give loopholes right to the point and and 20% fine for noncompiance assets froze and money taken like you do poor peoples paychecks remember

income tax on gross social security as same as minimum wage its the least they can do.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

we strongly disagree here as no imcome tax means no debt paid less gov't help people in poverty worse off middle class in poverty rich getting major break thats nonsense. ok 10% social security tax on $100,000 and up off gross paid monthly auditors in demand to keep things straight. income tax 10% across the board. 20million illegals sent home now minimum wage $15 hr 20million jobs and looking for 5 million more. thats 5 billion a week savimgs and 1.2 billion aweek on taxes. about 100,000,000make less than $15 an hr and pay no tax now they pay 3120 a year and thats 60 a week everyone wins 6 billion a week.income tax would near5 trillion dolars war stopage 1.5 trillion a year education 2.5 trillion being nice. thats 9 trillion in revenue and education and troops now making us money i forgot windmills between fences enough to power texas then its income forever with only god to stop it. forgot no 1000 a year free off the top for a kid not earned no longer getting it thats 10billion 

El__Jefe 6 pts

Do you think the Income Tax goes to helping the county? It doesn't, it pays off the Federal Reserve debt we owe to ourselves. This is complex, the movie Zeitgeist explains it well.I don't understand most of your writing because your grammar is poor, can you rephrase using commas and proper language?

Kraedi 5 pts

I am with El_Jefe, and would also like to point out that you are nitpicking. Its not just that he wants to cut federal government revenue by removing the income tax, but he wants to cut federal spending in numerous accounts, such as putting an end to government role in business, education, and healthcare. On top of that, if we put a stop to the foreign wars, that is one big chunk of unnecessary spending that could either lower our debt and/or allow for space to remove income tax.

I do not understand the purpose of Income Tax. I live in Texas, we apparently do not have Income Tax, but we have Federal Withholding tax, which is essentially money given to the government to pay for its service. We do not get it back when we retire, though when we file for a tax return, we get a portion of it back, based on what we actually owe. What is the point of this? Why can't they get it right the first time and not give us money back? Why am I paying all these taxes just to get about 75% of it back?

I give about 1400 dollars to the government a year off my paycheck alone, in Texas. Only about 15% of the money I make total. I am okay with this. If they threw in an Income Tax on top of Federal Withholding, I am sorry, but I would have to interrogate its meaning. Sounds like double taxation to me. Again, they not only get tons of money from the working people, but tons from people buying and renting things. I am okay with sales and rent taxes. I am not so okay with charging a tax for federal funding in the shape of a penalty for being a working American.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

its not income tax we need to get rid of its laws being boken. which my plan explains. its money being given to everyone but americans and rich stealing it soPEOPLE VOTE ALL BILLS NO SPENDING WITHOUT OUR SAY SO saving trillions. sorry about caps making a statement. we the people allow bad things to happen we complain but do nothing about it 80% of america want troops home rich are getting richer with them there to the tuneof 1.5 trillion a year and thats only what they admit to.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i need all the help i can get mainly tell friends and family and have them do same i'm dieing so i need help i'll be on ss next october if i live that long monies given to my helping ron paul and advertizing sebnd to regis j. beaken sr. 528 lexington way cashiers check littlestown, pa. 17340 time is short i mainly want votes but he does need money. ty god bless and peace be with you. that phrase includes everyone so god can be mentioned as well as rest . dummies take their choice ever read a jehovah witness pamphlet it explains a 4 page document on all the coincidents for no creator

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

my typing is bad but i try and read every sentence thes last 3 comments are srambled in key areas

not what i wrote when i write a document per bill i will have a attorney look at it to make sure no loopholes and no changing my words

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

my bill for accountability and all americans voting every bill with impeachment power takes the  stealing out of gov't unless we let them do it we are the people the constitution was talking about. i would have that bill in place right now before obama steals another  450 billion. if any ties the one of 4 groups with the highest % of votes win 4 is the people 2senate 3house 4.president. laws need to be simple without lawyers making 1000 page law example every one will pay 10% income that works. with present 15hr minimum wage. rich will pay also   no exceptions thats income used for roads bridges 25% minimum to national debt. and making a law enforced if police or national guard bust you more than 2 people see it your guilty drugs and money are evidence 1 hour maxinmum trial. i have jailbirds working a chaingang for 12 hrs a day commit a felony your going to the borders.  

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

if you know the bible they pd. 10% off gross to gov't which was religious mostly. if we go into religion

strap yourself down i'll debate that with a priest i believe in god and china is taking over and more destruction to earth is happening and our presidents might just be the antichrist we come in peace to kill your families then rebuild so we look good.i never mentioned the bible because i don't want to scare athiests away. god isn't voting or you would shit your shorts.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i pay $40 coopay on office visits at least once a month. insrance too high making drs. and hospitals too high people like me that are taking drugs to help side effects of needed. ever see on tv ads where this drug cures allergies side effects about 15 more harmfull problems. they can pay taxes they are playing a kids game millions. person like oprah would pat 1 billion plsus on new policy each income and social security. its 6 trillion a year i found so far in savings.if you beat that email @cbeaken528@comcast .net only seriuos people answer i'm already doing 50 a day god bkess and peace be with you

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

we stop taxes across the board we owe14.5 trillion is that dropping from the sky. it's just the last yrs

that thebt got this way 15 yrs.no taxes and china will own america in next 15 yrs. my taxes proves in 6 yrs 1 term pays debt ceiling and were in the black making money hand over fist. thats ending obama and 1 term new president. after that their will be 8 trillion dollars to do new things and help plants with the stipulation for x amount given a nubers of new emploees hired and in my 0.1% unemployment plan rich aren't paying that.crack down on insurance make it harder for attorneys to sue drugs not an monopoly i take 22 pills a day average $0 a month coopay with 2 insurances

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

my way makes the rich pay they're fair share 10% flat rate on gross for everone with my plan poor make $15hr an hour which will get the crops picked properly. and low payed people be able to live better,spend more,without bankrucy or foreclosures. rich get richer due to the spending. rich pay 10% social security taxoff gross $100000 and up. this ends social security and medicare for eternity no more bickering. you say rich won't pay is when they're assests are frozen and money removed for past yrs. of non compliance they will learn the new law is what it is. that goes back yrs thats the law.

EvanEggleston 5 pts

If taxes were this bad then why didn't we just stick with the articles of confederation?

I think sales taxes are a little bit worse. That truly limits the buying of goods. A lower income family already barely pays much on income taxes getting more than they paid in back in tax returns, has problems affording things as it is. I will never understand the benefit of Cains 999 plan.

McCordRM 7 pts

I wouldn't mind an Income Tax if it was THE tax.

Right now, I earn (for example) $100. It immediately gets taxed, so I only get to pocket $70 of it. Yay, I just earned $70... but then I go to spend it, at which point it is taxed again.

Screw it... I'm just going to write an article about this. I'll post it on my site and then come back and link it later.

k scott 5 pts

McCordRM

Everyone else pays taxes too. If the govt stopped taxing everyone tomorrow, we would all have more to spend and would run up the prices of the products we compete for, just like Paul's description of what happens when the govt prints more money. But, once the govt fires all employees and stops buying from american companies and stops entitlements, people's incomes will be slashed at least as much as they were paying in taxes, except for the wealthy. They will come out ahead.

McCordRM 7 pts

The wealthy, unless they're stupid, stay wealthy. There's a reason we have the saying, "It takes money to make money". That, and that alone, is why loans are necessary. It helps people without money have a chance to start businesses. Imagine wanting to start a baked goods store when you can't afford flour, let alone a store front. We, as a society, would be stuck eating Betty Crocker since no-one else could afford to compete.

The point being, there is no fixing the "wealthy coming out ahead". Not unless we decided to just take away their money... but if it's ok to steal from them, we- by default- make it ok to also steal from the rest of us.

As for everyone paying taxes, too... what was your point, exactly? Nowhere did I say we should have no taxes, nor did I say we should only tax certain people.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

to jmp374 i never mentioned jews in my policy i talk about usa only we involve other countries and they call us friends because of our power they would love to see us fail. my puts 6 trillion dollars in savings and i'm not done money couldn't move if everyone voted. that we all vote every bill then the crooks can't steal it, without us being stupid. i'm on ssd major heart attack and hospital error. i only pump 20% of nomal flow. now have many brain problems, but i'm far from stupid. look at my answers before email like yours. it was a mistake i'm sure anyone who couldn't have read it is a moron.

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

what i forgot is mathmatically i would make plenty more with windmills than cost to build and that money just keeps coming with electric generators no cost no enviroment issue win win

regisjbeakensr 7 pts

i've pointed out my stand on taxes are 10% on $100000 and up social security tax social.security and medicare paid for life may help education. now 10% on income tax both off the gross no lawyers sneaking in thats for everyone $15 minimum wage it makes sense. thats 3120 dollars minimum a person tax . emloyee thats bad no you get $60 a week taken out and thats it. the rich take ahit here but have been screwing us for years you made the problem by breaking or bending laws pay up time. most making $15 hr now are deducted 20% thats double i saved you $60 a week if your math is bad have your 10 year old explain it to you. this what a bill should look like short and sweet. then our countries problem the laws are easy making people obey is another thing. bring jobs back home penalize anyone who hides their money in another country deport bush to germany freeze his assessts and give to homeless ranch and all. ok just fine him 20% of gross income for next 10 yrs 45trillion for war my as-

bipolar kicking in i hate both those presidents.

k scott 5 pts

Ron Paul says, "An income tax is the most degrading and totalitarian of all possible taxes."

That's interesting since God creates an income tax for His nation of Israel in the Bible. Does Paul think that God is a degrading totalitarian?

Do we call God a thief for creating a Tithe for the Poor (which was a national mandatory 10% tax) in His nation of ancient Israel, and for requiring that all landowners leave food behind in their fields and vineyards for the poor? He also required a 10% ministry tax on which the government operated (since this was a theocracy) and a 10% festival tax which was for the enjoyment of the community. God is the creator the income tax that is redistributed amongst the people. That's where the concept comes from.

God cares about the well-being of all people more than He does an individual's right to hoard riches while others suffer.

MikeinBoston 5 pts

That's about the worst argument I've ever read. Nice work.

k scott 5 pts

MikeinBoston

Wow, that's quite a well thought out response, Mike. You're a real deep thinker!

MikeinBoston 5 pts

k scott LOL Thanks! I guess it gets as good as it gives. My point is that its brainless to include an imaginary being in a discussion about reality. Comon. Get real.

PaulI. 5 pts

Wasn't there something in the Constitution about the separation of church and state??? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

k scott 5 pts

PaulI.

Actually there isn't, but the constitution does forbid a national religion. However, this does not mean we can't vote based on our beliefs. All people have religious beliefs, even if it's the belief that there is no God.

But as long as you admit that Paul's anti-income tax stance is anti-Christian and is insulting to God, I'm fine with that.

LoveOfLiberty 6 pts

k scott,

Is there a reason you believe Mosaic law should still be implemented in today's world, a world (as asserted by most Christians) which has embraced Christ's teachings and abandoned much/most of Moses' teachings???

The problem with your analogy, even if Moses' law were still in place, is that the Hebrews were commanded to tithe in support of

themselves and others Hebrews. They were not commanded to forcibly take 10% from those of other faiths in nearby areas. No matter how noble the cause of using funds to care for the needy, or any other noble cause, God has never commanded His people to forcibly take from others, which is what taxes do! Instead, His way has consistently been to allow His people to choose for themselves (granted, sometimes with penalties) to pay or not to pay. You are correct that tithes are a form of taxation. However, you have left out a critical word: "voluntary." Tithes are voluntary taxation. The question is about choice and force.

Read about Christ's life and you'll find many teachings which hinge on his underlying message of choice. From my own life, it seems most properly-used force exists due to the need to stop others from imposing their will on us. Examples of improper uses of force (such as the one you advocate) are many. Some are murder, rape, slavery, theft, violence, and dishonesty. Believe me, if I choose not to pay taxes, the government will enact violence on me, either through garnished wages, them forcibly taking my belongings, through some tangential law imprison me, or some other violent means. They force 20% of my day (on good days) to be spent working for them. In other times, this was called "serfdom" or "slavery."

I'm expecting, somewhat, for you to find some obscure Bible verse to support your claim about Ron Paul being un-Christian, even though I have the entire New Testament to support my arguments. Unless you can substantially refute my message, I hope you can begin to accept it. It is a message of peace, liberty, and choice. Were enough people to embrace it, we would all be able to live in communities we WANT to live in (instead of those our predecessors left to us), our living standards would improve because the productive would be better rewarded and, as multiple studies have shown, productive people are far more charitable than unproductive people (even those who have received great inheritances and are very wealthy). I wish the best for you and if you are interested, please buy a small, older, inexpensive book called "The Love of Liberty" by Leonard E. Read, or download it for free at http://mises.org/books/loveofliberty.pdf

Have a good one!!!

k scott 5 pts

LoveOfLiberty

My point, LoveofLiberty, is that the Old Testament is proof of how God runs a country. The New Testament, on the other hand, does not address governements and national laws, but only personal behavior. If you want to run a country like God did, look at how He ran Israel.

Also, you are incorrect in saying that the Hebrews only tithed to their own kind, as the Tithe for the Poor and leaving food behind in fields was for the widow, orphan and "alien", which means "immigrant." These mandatory redistributions of wealth were for the nation, not the religion.

k scott 5 pts

LoveOfLiberty

Paying taxes is not slavery. The politicians are not pocketing your money (except for their relatively small salaries). They are redistributing your money by paying people to protect us from violence and predatory business practices and by helping those who have litttle. When you take away these protections and safety nets is when people work their lives away in utter poverty like slaves.

FYI, Slavery is not a sin in the Bible if the slaves are treated as brothers in Christ. The Bible even addresses the issue of slaves not wanting to leave when allowed to go free. Why would a slave want to stay? Because they are treated well. God isn't concerned with individual liberty; He's concerned about dignified quality of life for all created in His image, which is all people. He knows it's better to be controlled by another, but have food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, and general enjoyment of life than it is to be free while starving and freezing, as so many Americans were in the Libertarian late 1800s.

El__Jefe 6 pts

k scott Ron Paul is against giving our income to the government, not against giving it to God.

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