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Progress: serious about winning

By Hopi Sen / @hopisen

How do we win next time? This question that underlay every discussion at the Progress Political weekend which bought around two hundred Labour activists and trade unionists to the NUT's Stoke Rochford Hall.

In some ways, the next general election seems far distant. The coalition agreement extends to 2015, and even if the Lib Dems split over some Tory outrage to Liberal values, a significant group of Lib Dem MPs appear so tied to the coalition they would not desert it at any price.

We face Scottish, Welsh, Local, European and London elections first. There's the referendum on the alternative vote. There's the battles to be fought to protect the NHS, to defend public services, to challene the governments economic policies. There's the relentless daily combat of the media cycle.

In other words, we know we need to win, we desperately want to win, but we don't often get to talk about how we're going to do it. The Progress political weekend spent much of it's time examining that challenge.

If I had to sum up the thrust of the speakers message, it is that Labour must go where the voters are. (Well, aside from Andrew Adonis, who wanted us to go to Birmingham). As Douglas put it:

"We need to reach a place where the public know what a Labour Britain would look like for them, and judge it a credible and attractive alternative"


Everyone's starting point was a recognition that voters were disappointed with what we gave them last time. This isn't some internal factional point. It's not new versus old, or Tony versus Gordon. There is more than enough voter disappointment to be apportioned to every wing, branch, faction or ideological strand of the Labour Party. In other words, we're all in this together. 

Now, this may seem like a truism, (We lost, so obviously we know the voters were disillussioned with us) but as Douglas Alexander pointed out, the history of the Labour Party after electoral rejection does not inspire confidence. In 1931, 1951 and 1979, Labour responded to defeat by turning in on ourselves, forming a circular firing squad so devastatingly effective that it took a decade and a half before the survivors were able to lead the Labour Party back into government.

Not this time.

Perhaps it was the leadership contest, a change in the nature of the party, or the discipline the "next generation" are showing to support Ed Miliband's leadership (a flurry of "Edrightlypointsout" and "as-ed-has-saids" were to be found in each speech, whether designed to be press released or not). Whatever the cause, the aftermath of this defeat is different to the past. We are looking outward to the criticism the electorate had for us, not inward, poring over our critiques of each other.

As a result, there is pride in the achievments of New Labour in government, but there's no attempt to defend the old verities blindly. Conversely, the tribunes of Progress, whether councillors, activists, old hands or young enthusiasts seem pleased, and perhaps even a little surprised, at how few bitter accusations of betrayal and ideological turncoatery are being hurled at them. 

There are differences of emphasis and analysis, but the whole party seems to agree that the voters did not mistake their intent by throwing us out, and since we are not loved, we must alter when we such alteration find. 

Further, as Jim Murphy's opening speech emphasised, this alteration can't be some straightforward restatement of New Labour:

"Celebrating New Labour's achievements is not the same as trying to relaunch New Labour. Times and people change and it's compulsory that Labour changes, or better still leads the change.... ...The challenge is to anticipate and lead the direction of reform. Both oppositionalism and the policies of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are incapable of achieving that."

Or as Douglas Alexander said:

"new times demand not old dogmas, but new approaches." 

There's broad agreement too about where the voters are now, or might be in 2015.

Liam Byrne, talking from the perspective of leading the Labour policy review, set out the insecurities faced by electorate, and the common belief that the economic model Labour relied on from 1997, of using the proceeds of financial services based growth to redistribute in favour of working families, education and the NHS was unrepeatable after the economic crash.

Jim Murphy pointed our that:

"in 2015 the prevailing attitude will either be relief or anger. People might feel relief that the worst is over. That for all the collective pessimism things didn't turn out as bad for them and their family as they feared. The alternative aggregate sentiment is anger. They will feel anger at cuts, but many will remain uncertain about who should shoulder the blame."

Building on this theme,  Douglas Alexander identified one of the challenges for all parties - how to connect with an electorate where:

"the overriding sentiment people felt about the future (in his recent visits to workplaces) was fear. What will the cuts mean for our local schools? How will my son get a job? Will the bank cancel my business' line of credit? How much more will I have to pay, and how much longer will I have to work before I can retire? Public service workers - from teachers to social workers and Police officers - all felt they were paying the price for a banking crisis and resultant economic crash that they had no hand in at all."

"Those people I talked with on Friday night - and the millions like them across the country - are anxious and angry. And they want us to be their voice - to speak up and stand up for them in the face of a Government agenda that fills them with incomprehension and apprehension in equal measure."


Caroline Flint emphasised the impotance of aspiration  - of the desire to see your home improved, your community safe, your children given a strong start in life, all aspirations Tory policies were damaging through their cuts to EMA, Housing, Trust Funds, Schools and local councils, but which would do Labour little good unless we engaged carefully with how we would offer something both believable and better.

Do these Labour figures think that and their leader have all the answers now?

They'd reject the premise, I think. Given the consistent stress on both listending and credibility, the conclusion is logically that shouldn't try to propose a 2015 agenda in 2011, but instead make sure we ask the hard questions about what the electorate want from a Labour government, listen carefully to the answers and develop strong, credible policies that meet those priorities. As Douglas Alexander said:

"Our challenge over a parliament is to become a powerful voice, and then over time become the popular choice."


This is why Liam Byrne's policy review is so essential for Labour, and why he put so much emphasis in his contribution on how much we needed to change the way we did politics as a party. 

It appears jobs, growth, crime, community, schools and hospitals will be key parts of that agenda - and it was striking how often contributions from the floor focused on industrial policy, infrastructure spend, how best to use limited funds and people's living standards. But those elements must come from what voters tell us will make a difference, not what we assert matter to us.

If we're going to win, we need to turn the outrage so many feel at the action of the government in 2011 into support for a Labour alternative in 2015*. So my conclusion from Progress in 2011 is that we need clarity about what voters want, credibility in everything we offer and a relentless focus on the aspirations people have for their families and their communities.

That's an agenda for victory the whole Labour Party can engage in.


*Or whenever, should the Coalition fall apart.

Mar 13, 2011 at 05:15pm


126 Comments · Show / Hide
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Hopi, I wish I had read both your articles before commenting on the other!

This makes a lot more sense, and is straightforward and pragmatic.
Also nuanced, not just a presentation of what many perceive as a NL agenda...?

I think the future for the party will be about knuckling down, letting go of preconceptions, past successes or failures, and as you say- above all totally immersing itself with the real issues the public face.
Not just behind closed doors or via focus group/ sofas(!)

Maybe the reason some of us have been a bit shirty of late on the blogs, is because there appeared to be an onslaught of ex NL ministers(including Peter M) flooding the media with messages that implied returning to NL and centre right was the only realistic option?

(Also by implication, casting doubt on Ed's leadership, barely months after he's started.)

And seemed to be timed to restoring credibility over foreign policy during the middle East crisis?

I'd like to see the back of factionalism and tribes, replaced with unity of purpose and a broad tent working together with mutual respect.

I think the public will only relate to a party which clearly represents their interests in the most practical way possible; ground up, not top down. No signs of elitism or vested interests; but real people working hard and connecting through community working.Not as a gimmick, but as a way of working side by side.

I think it could be the grassroots that galvanise and re energise
Labour's values and roots; it became too stagnant and top down in the later years of NL.

I also think heading more right in direction would be a big mistake, considering what we are seeing now in government?

Labour needs to reshape its identity, not be merely a shadow
of what might be considered popular?

For me, it is precisely because we followed in the footsteps of Thatcherism and neo liberal conservatism, that our society is in the mess it's in, and our economy has ended up so reliant on the financial sector.

I think we have to look to other models, as well as creating a cross party consensus, and drawing in of experts and the public across a very wide field for ideas; not just a selective few, that might happen to fit our prevailing ideology?

Again, it's all a bit garbled, but are some of my immediate thoughts on future direction of party and movement.

Jo
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
I found most of the comments on here very interesting too; although in general, I don't play into the "anti politics" agenda for its own sake either.

I can't see how the party can move forward by wallowing in pessimism, or by crowing about past acheivements alone.

I think there just needs to be balance and realism.

Jo
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
"To survive, the Liberal Democrats must start pulling to the left;" JA, Guardian, 13/3.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
How many Hazico 28s are there? Or is there just one talking to himself/herself?
John Bull @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
"If I had to sum up the thrust of the speakers message, it is that Labour must go where the voters are."

This must be the most depressing statement I've read on LL for a long time. Has Labour learnt nothing?

Lead, don't follow, the voters: otherwise you'll be a Party with no vision, no heart, no soul.
David H @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Absolutley disagree David. You can have vision, heart, soul and POWER to effect change.

Have a read of this..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/mar/14/douglasalexander-edmiliband
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
I read the piece Pat, thanks.

A think that a key sentence is: "Labour can win the next general election in 2015 but only if it recaptures the spirit of 1994-1997 when the party embarked on the final push for modernisation under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown."

In those years the Party sold itself to the electorate. It knew where it was going and brought people along with it. It didn't "go to where the voters" were. Of course it ditched a lot of things that made Labour unelectable during the modernisation process but that was part of the New Labour vision: not some cynical rebranding job to gain power for power's sake.

If the voters are not where Labour is; then moving to where the voters are will result in Labour becoming something that is not-Labour. Gaining power WITH integrity is what is required. Who would want power without it?
David H @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Five million voters disagree with you.
Robert phew @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
David,

I agree whole heartedly on the integrity front. On whole I hate politicians ALL of them. I think they are all in it for themselves milking it for everything they can.

Just reading some of the comments on this board and I worry about how we can get to a consensus that drives the UK forward in this globalised world. New Labour understood that even though it made many mistakes along the way. A lurch to the left without a plan will result in unelectability or worse disaster if we are elected with Balls going into number 11. The man is a joke.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
"A lurch to the left without a plan will result in unelectability or worse disaster"

I agree that there are precious few votes available for strongly left-wing policies: I'm not advocating that Labour lurch to the left. I'm simply saying that Labour needs to know what it stands for; what it's core values and core policies are. It has to *sell* its core vision to the voters: not come up with policies just because they are popular or expedient.
David H @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
There is plenty of room for good policy without explaining the core values of the Party to every member of the electorate, but there seems to be a shortage of good policy ideas.

So far we've had a promise of full employment which is an impossible end goal, a promise on building houses but nowhere near enough to address the problem and today a hint at the economic capabilities of Ed Balls. None of them inspire. None of them are ideas fit for purpose. Until that begins to change and people see some realistic policy ideas or at the very least some realistic opposition, what difference will it make to the electorate to babble about a core vision?

It's like planning a holiday abroad, but forgetting to arrange transportation to get there. It might sound like the destination will be great, but it is all the way over there and we're all the way over here.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Bill,

Surely the policy defines what you believe in? It should be self explanatory.

The claptrap currently being spouted appeals to the few. I want to hear.....

We know your pain
We know what you want
We understand injustice
We need to drive a sustainable economic agenda
we understand whats possible and what isnt
We're going to do the following because this is what we believe in.

We should be a country mile ahead of the U-turning Tories, who aren't doing a great job. The Eds are proving themselves incapable.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
There are a few flaws in what you'd like to hear from them though Pat.

They don't know our pains because they are far removed from regular everyday life, they don't know what the electorate wants and considering it is the average politician that creates the injustice in the first instance, so they understand it, just not from the same angle as the electorate.

Right behind you on the sustainable economic agenda, but judging from todays announcements they haven't a clue what is possible and what isn't.

I think Ed M is capable, but why he's saddled himself with a chancellor who is like GB mkii is beyond me. Come back Alastair Darling, all is forgiven.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Instead of potential MPs crawling out of Oxbridge and straight into internships at the HoC, it would be great to see them do six months on a factory line, a year working alongside a businessman/woman and six months in a hospital. Ed Balls and Ed Milliband represent `Labour', but they have little idea what that entails, or means.
@ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Even a single day working on a production line would give them an insight into what it is like at the other end of the scale from the one they sit at.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Bill I have come to wonder if the predominance of Oxbridge candidates as researchers, advisers, MPs, is now the problem within the Party. There seems to be little real life experience within the elite - either working in manufacturing, entrepreneurs, people from SMEs, in fact anyone who has ever sat down and wondered how they will find the money to pay a bill, keep an employee in work, write a business plan, juggle an overdraft. It's a Party that is now dominated by a very narrow intellectual elite, and the two Eds are representative of that elite.
Sue Kirby @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
At least they're not predominantly from Eton.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
That has absolutely no bearing on the problem. This is about Labour not the Tories. There is a narrow elite dominating the Party and it is getting narrower. I have no idea what Eton has got to do with it. I'm talking about Oxbridge domination of a party called `Labour'. People who, if they didn't actually go to public school, went to the best state schools, then to Oxbridge, and then believe this qualifies them to tell the oiks what's best for them.
Sue Kirby @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Sue

My son went to a standard state school, but is now in Oxford. He's a regular guy, and very conscious of his good fortune and wanting to pay it back.

Now Private School seems to deform people much more than Oxbridge. Three years from 19-21 isn't going to radically alter your world view compared to 8 till 18.

So while I do think that politics has got a bit more wonky (however Balliol seemed to provide a lot of Labour PMs) Oxbridge at least has some small vestiges of meritocracy that Eton doesn't.

I don't actually think politicians need to be smart in an academic way. I'd prefer them to be older with a wider experience. But there's a danger you're just punishing people for being academically talented.

Imagine excluding actors from TV series because they came from RADA. Or English footballers from the national team because they played in the Premier League.

The obsession with Oxbridge can work both ways: obeisance and sycophany, or chippiness and inverted snobbery.

Just sayin'
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
The history of privilege you outline illustrates my point quite nicely. You, probably public school, then presumably Oxbridge. Son like those of the Labour illuminati, `state' school then Oxford. A circle of privilege and advantage, that has now spun itself into the Labour hierarchy, and cuts out those who do not have those advantages. A cancer within the Labour Party that cuts it off from real society.
Sue Kirby @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Sue

Your assumptions about me and my family outlines quite brilliantly the inverted snobbery and chippiness of the English.

My grandfather was an armenian refugee. I lived most my adolescence in poverty, in a one parent family, on a council estate. I went to a state school but won a scholarship to Cambridge - and received a full grant.

My son is just bright. Obviously his parents education helped, but he was the only one in his comprehensive to got to Oxford. Kudos to him. He hasn't forgotten his roots, and wants to pay society back in some way.

Your ugly words about cancer reflect very poorly on you Sue, not me.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
No, they just reflect how sick working class people have become, of the pretence that the Labour hierarchy in any way reflects their concerns or worries, or even has any idea about the reality of their lives. Working class people `chippy', how dreadful, but they have every reason to be so at the moment. Unfortunately when you're working class being bright is absolutely no guarantee to getting to a good university in my town.
Sue Kirby @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Sue I get that completely. Its who you know and what revolving in middle class circles coupled with money buys you.

Labour has not broken this cycle.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Peter I do think you are clutching at straws. As a poly boy (and proud of it) I see no difference in the advantage that either Eton or Oxford provide. We are splitting hairs. I do respect people of all backrounds unless they are arrogant and full of themselves.

If your son wants to give society something then thats great.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Sue and Pat

Labour isn't perfect, and I've often bemoaned the decline of working class MPs on LL. But it's still true, they come from much more diverse backgrounds than the Tories.

But since I'm no part of any hierarchy, I suggest you direct your personalised comments to people in power (whose arrogance might actually matter) rather than trying to get a rise by being rude to strangers on the internet. You both must have much better things to do

:-)
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
"being rude to strangers"... pot kettle black?
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm argumentative, Pat, on the issues. But I doubt I've ever made rude comments about your backgroundor family
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
and at what point was I rude?
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Not you, Sue. Read the thread
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Very helpful comment Peter.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Accurate too.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Been giving this quite a bit of thought because it was discussed in another thread a week or so ago. Personally I think the reason you don't see the real world people in politics, aside from the fact they wouldn't be selected as candidates, is why would anyone want to leave the real world behind just to be told how they should represent the constituents they were elected to oversee?

If you think about it, if you become a politician now you don't really have a voice. If you falter from the party line at all, you're out of favour and likely to be replaced. As a yes man, you can go all the way, right up to the position of Chancellor. You don't need character, flair or even passion for the people. Just keep nodding and the world is your lobster.

The Labour Party needs to remember where it came from, but by the time it does it'll probably be too late.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Do you mean...

Lets oppose every cut
Lets have a pop bankers?
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Lets oppose every cut
Lets have a pop bankers?

LOL. That seems to be the core policy at the moment...

"We're going to do the following because this is what we believe in."

That's what I want to hear too.
David H @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
The party is being sunk by people who do not realize that diverting money from the banks into the real economy (using the proceeds of taxation of the banks to invest in housebuilding and energy security) is a fundamental policy direction. I despair.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Err no that would be suicide. We need to build houses, we need energy security but we need to do things strategically.

The answer is to dump the Oxbridge crowd and find a Labour team that no how to regenerate our economy and to reduce the strangle hold the banking xxxxers have on us. You dont go screwing with 1/4 to 1/3rd of the economy without a fall back plan.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Yeah, right, it's about 13% - and people will die because of the actions of the banks. Your sort of comment is the principal reason why I find it very hard to remain in the party.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
You're including the service industry in that I presume? The sandwich shops, the cleaners, the bars, the hotels, the taxis? I could go on for half an hour with the number of people who rely on the bankers to pay their bills.

Don't think it will directly kill anyone if the banks go, but it will plunge a good few people into poverty.

Get the big businesses to start paying the tax they owe first, should be simple enough. They have to account for what they earn and what their costs are, the difference is owed in tax. No more deals.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I've actually been out in front of those tax avoiding stores with UKUncut. The banks are the biggest tax avoiders. So your prescription is the same. Why do you think that UKUncut has targeted Barclays and HSBC? Why do you think USUncut has campaigned against Bank of America and Citigroup? The banks are the biggest tax avoiders. Do you think they will migrate if you ask them to contribute their proper share of tax? At least Labour did not intend to give the banks the reduction on corporation tax, but to maintain capital tax allowances which assist productive manufacturing. When you and Sue Kirby commiserate with each other, you might remember that Labour intended to sustain capital tax allowances but Osborne reduced them to allow the banks a reduction in corporation tax. What extent of the service industry depends on the bankers who buy BMWs, Porsches, Mercedes-Benz, Apple, and other exotic imported items which destroy the balance of payments and contribute little to the economy of the UK? In fact, it has been estimated recently that the impact of the banks in the greater London area is neutral in fiscal terms. They are not yet equivalent to Goldman Sachs as the giant squid, but they are competing hard. The intended bonus tax would amount to a fraction of their bonus pool. There is no other way to accumulate the capital needed for the public investment in the infrastructure of this country which will assist productive industry.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Okay JPG, fine, forget about the service industry altogether and you push hard for those nasty bankers to be taxed.

Sorry, but I wasn't talking about BMWs or iPads, I was talking about the people who serve the sandwiches, who clean the offices, who service the lifts, computers and coffee machines.

You're so short-sighted with this. The banks don't even have to move country. They could shift their HQs out of the centre of London, relocate to Birmingham and leave a path of destruction in the centre of London. Will UKUncut be renting the offices they vacate or buying thousands of pounds worth of food and drink in the capital?

Of course the banks avoid tax, but who lets them get away with legitimate taxes? Who lets Tesco get away with tax? Vodafone? Boots? You tell me who lets that happen? Because for the past 13 years, that'd be the Labour Party. And you have the nerve to critisise people here who actually understand the mess Labour has caused that is now being compounded by the coalition?

You amaze me, you really do. Every other week you're threatening to go off to the Greens, that you're finished with the Party, all because things don't go your way. Things haven't gone my way for years, Ken Clarke is back in government which is enough to turn me to a bottle of the strong stuff, but you're either Labour-minded or you're not. And as far as this subject matter goes, you're either realistic or you're not.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Oh, see you've removed my comment.

But I've removed none of yours Bill; others will have to be the judge of where you are coming from.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Your comments just gloss over me Bill.

You are just showing yourself up more and more.

I expect you'll be spending half the night checking over what you'd like Mark to see; but you don't fool me.

We all enjoy writing on here Bill, and no one should feel intmidated or ridiculed.

You constantly blow things up beyond all proportion, and blame everyone else.

We are all responsible for our comments; that seems pretty basic to me.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Well, all I can do in that case is apologize for not having your acute understanding and comprehension and not being 'objective' (P. Cooper) or 'realistic' (W. Dewison). Look to yourselves. That's it for me.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Hey J-PG

Your comments, links and facts are really helpful. They are not 'actions' in themselves, but still persuade and activate many readers.

And don't forget for every commenter here there are about 20 or so readers.

So please keep on keeping on. Don't let them grind you down.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'd like to second that Peter.
Why should valuable posters like JPG feel compelled to leave?

People should be able to make their points without being ridiculed, just because of difference of opinion.

For God's sake, let's have more of a community atmosphere on here; less point scoring.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
In all fairness Jo it tends to be the two Peters that enjoy ridiculing opposing posters. No one should feel compelled to leave because another poster has a bad attitude. But then why not just ignore them or as I do laugh at them?
stephen Mcconnell @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Stephen M,

Given that you don't appear to have the brains of a rocking horse, you should indeed be a subject of ridicule.

You should remember the maxim : "it is better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Thanks stephen, sorry if it's been a bit tough at times.
I can't agree with you about the 2 Peters though; I regard them as trusted friends on LL.
My advice would be- just stick to the issues and points, and avoid any personal commentary.
It may be possible one day for all to post without being lambasted and ridiculed!
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Don't make the mistake of attacking the Peters! Are you mad?!

In fairness to them both, they are both very knowledgable and capable of looking at things from the lighter side. They do have a tendancy to tear the odd commenter apart, but hell, this is politics. We all expect to get a bloody nose from time to time.

What there isn't room for is paranoia and constant over-analysing, but then I'm just a nasty man at the moment, so don't take my word for it.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill D,

"They do have a tendancy to tear the odd commenter apart ..."

Not me, Bill - I try to stay off personal comments (discuss ideas, not people)unless someone (like McConnell, below) makes a personal comment about me.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm sure they imagine they are anyway.

Personally I find them a little too self satisfied and pious and laughably hypocritical when it comes to moderating others posts when they are far too quick to brand any one who disagrees with them ignorant, stupid etc.

But hay thats just me.
stephen Mcconnell @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Stephen M,

For your information, I have never moderated anyone else's post nor have I ever complained to Mark about anyone else's post.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I've just put a spell checker onto my dragon speech writer see if it helps.

Would not like to upset people by not being able to spell.
Robert phew @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
You use some very unpleasant language and make innaccurate claims here Bill.

Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
JP-G feels dissuaded from staying in the Labour party because of certain commenters here - but I'm not even sure they're Labour Party members!

This whole blogosphere thing so quickly degenerates into a mess.... oh well.

I'd better go to bed, and try to write some more plays. Did you hear a A Domestic last week?

Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Until next week when he comes back again and this little guilt trip is forgotten.

Sorry, but the course of debate with JPG or whatever his actual name is has been civil and to the point. If he can't stomach the debate and wants to flounce off because people disagree with him, what do you want the rest of us to do, cry?

The constant hissy fits are getting to be a real bore and personally I think the LL has become poorer for these silly little games. Don't worry though eh, the LL isn't somewhere to debate ideas any more. If you diagree with certain people at least.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
"LL isn't somewhere to debate ideas any more."

I don't see many ideas in many of the comments here...
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

I think the banks have already plunged quite a few people into poverty, repossession, unemployment, debt...

You know the bank bailouts in the US (which the UK almost matched per capita) amounted to a massive transfer of wealth from tax payer to the super rich. In order to protect the wild gambles the investment banks were made, we socialised the losses, while letting them privatise the gains.

It's been calculated that TARP and other bailout amount to (even accounting for inflation) the combined expenditure of the Manhattan Project, the Marshall Plan, the Apollo Project, the New Deal, the Vietnam, and two Iraq wars combined.

In short, for the money paid to bail out shareholders and bondholders, you could have paid off every domestic mortgage in the US.

I really don't think you get the scale of this, Bill.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm fully aware of the scale Peter and more fool our politicians for bailing out the banks without the right agreement to ensure we got the money back once the banks started to see those huge profits again.

It is all very well when people sing GB as saviour of the world, but he didn't dot the t's and cross the i's did he?

I know it is wrong, and I know how tempting it is to pursue the banks to get things back on a level. The transfer of wealth was huge and I think you know I've had personal experience of the people effected by the crash. It very nearly destroyed the industry I conduct business in over night and as far as I know, we were one of the first to be hit. I've seen good friends not only lose their jobs, but their homes and more importantly their husbands, wives and families through the decisions of selfish bankers and investors.

Cutting the nose off the financial industry will spite the face of London Peter. Much as I don't have a good word to say about London, the bankers don't even have to move their operations abroad. They could move out of London to the West of the country and cause enough chaos in the city just with that. Think about all the connected jobs, not just the frontline bankers and investors, but all the others who rely on the bankers to pay the wages.

It isn't just a simple case of tax the bankers.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

I think the deregulated financial system which basically holds most Western Governments hostage with its too big to fail ethos (and there are fewer bigger banks since 2008) distorts the whole economy, asset price inflation, acquisitions and mergers, high street property development, commodity price speculation from oil to food...

It's much bigger than taxing the banks. It's about separating investment and retail arms, corporate governance, collusion between powerful oligarchs and the state... I could go on.

But this is a much bigger issue than any normal industry. Finance provides liquidity. It's the lifeblood of the economy. When that is poisoned the whole body politic is at risk.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Absolutely agree they're holding us hostage Peter, but really, what is the alternative at the moment? What other wealth generator do we have on tap ready to step into the void if the banks decide they've had enough of being a government honeypot?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

I don't think banks are creating much wealth at the moment. They seem to move a lot of money to the super rich who save rather than spend. They don't lend to SME's. They're very reluctant to loan mortgages. Meanwhile the investment arms destablise oil prices, currencies and sovereign debts, and shift their bonuses overseas.

I'm not sure, beyond the bubble illusion of house price inflation, they haven't actually impoverished us.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

Wealth generator? You have to be joking.

The banks have essentially become a cross between parasites and looters, and the UK population is among the worst hit by their depredations.

It's as though a plumber charges £1,000 to change a washer and you're grateful because he gives you a 25% discount for cash.

We need banking services, but we don't need bank intermediaries, and the sooner we rid ourselves of them, the better.
Chris Cook @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Quite right, Chris C ("banks as wealth generators").

Financial services has two functions : (i) primary, to channel money from those who have a surplus of the stuff to those who have a shortage of the stuff and need it for investment and (ii) secondary, so that when Aunt Agatha pops her clogs, her heirs can easily dispose of her shares in Shell, or whoever.

Both of these functions are services and don't actually generate a dime of wealth.
The primary function assists capital formation, but the secondary function has no wealth-generating capability whatsoever.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Where do they spend their money Chris?

How much of the Docklands would exist today without the banks?

How many businesses in central London rely on the banks?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

Where do they spend our money, Bill. Every penny is extracted from us or from hapless foreigners.

As for Docklands, banks facilitated the buildings and earned a fortune doing it. But they couldn't have done it without depositors and investors, and there's no reason at all why banks need to come between investors and projects in the way that they do.

Finally, for every business in London relying on the banks there have been at least two outside London strangled at birth.
Chris Cook @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
And how many jobs..........
stephen Mcconnell @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Stephen

How many outrageously overpaid jobs created at the expense of the productive sector?

Banks should be drastically cut back to size and bankers paid decently in respect of the banking services they provide at a level which reflects the true value of banking services to society.

Which IMHO is perhaps between 1% and 10% of what they actually pay themselves.

Chris Cook @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Probably true but overpaid or not they are still jobs for those people that the government kept encouragingto go to university.With out these jobs whatever your view of the productivity of the industry itself these people would be unemployed and a burden on the taxpayer rather than paying tax themselves.
stephen Mcconnell @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
A reply to Chris's comment below: The problem is that what really happens is the government comes down on the public sector as they have no power to decide private sector wages.
stephen Mcconnell @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Stephen

Then lets cut back the amount we pay in fatcat salaries and dividends and instead pay the money to truly productive people like public servants doing essential jobs?

We should pay tax to governments rather than banks.
Chris Cook @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
'They could move out of London to the West of the country and cause enough chaos in the city just with that.' Doubtful. Since the Big Bang in 1986, they really don't need to be in London. They are there because they like it there.
Cheerio. I don't see where this discussion get anything done.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
And how would you go about that JPG? How exactly would you ensure that the banks pay the huge taxes the two Eds want them to pay?

It isn't going to happen. Beware any politician who makes you believe for a second that the banks are going to contribute their fair share into the economy. They'll shift themselves abroad and completely demolish employment in the City before they'll do that.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
BTW, people tend to forget that the massive profits which they are again making are assisted by the QE from the BoE which is sitting 'in their vaults' which they have not distributed into the wider economy. May we have our QE back, please?
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Yes, the Government gives to banks at some ridiculously low rate, and they lend it out at many points above base (but of course not to SME's)

It's ridiculous bonanza: money, literally, for old rope.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
To where? In the US there is a massive campaign against the banks. Bank of America is being slaughtered, now by the leaks from Anonymous. There is a massive popular reaction against the banks and their foreclosure practices in the US. You have to be VERY selective about which Swiss canton to patronize - the rates in Zurich are very high. Barclays will not move to NY. HSBC will fulminate and talk about moving to Hongkong, but how long will the Chinese provide those favourable circumstances there? They have their own banks. It's bluff time.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
No facts there .... just a lot of supposition.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm sitting in Seattle right now.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ JPG

Give Bill Gates my regards.
Chris Cook @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
From what I've read - and I've been following this closely - that's a pretty informed comment by JP-G. I don't know what facts you have about foreclosure practices in the US, or Swiss Canton tax breaks, but please feel free to share. Don't be shy and hold back.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Hungary seems a good starting point. There are a few companies over there, I believe it is where Tesco sends its cash to be laundered so they can avoid the odd £60 million tax bill here and there.

Fair enough though, call their bluff and risk half the City jobs that support the banking sector disappearing overnight. Nobody will notice another half a million on the dole queue, well, apart from the Labour leadership who will then use it as a stick to beat the Conservatives with.

It isn't a realistic option JPG. It is an attractive dream to wish for, but the chances of the banks paying up are about the same as Ed Balls ever being the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm sure the bankers will be thrilled at your suggestion. Banks are already using those locations, of course. Barclays is allegedly using 130 offshore havens. I'm not staying - there's just no determination in the party.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

I'm slightly disappointed that an imaginative bruiser like yourself is so easily captivated by the blandishments of investment banks.

HSBC employs most its UK staff in retail banking. The investment and derivatives end employs a few thousand, most of whom avoid tax by moving share options to the Caymans or Leichtenstein.

When they say they'll move their HQs, it's just the investment end. They'll still need all the staff at the physical banks.

We're being played for fools here. No surprise really considering the amount of (state funded) lobbying money the banks can throw around.

In the US they have SIX lobbyists for every single member of congress.

Don't be spun by them, Bill. Read up on this a bit more.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I have Peter, and I appreciate that they may be bluffing, but personally I wouldn't want to take the risk. I accept that means if I were in government I'd be viewed as a push over, but personally there are safer gains to be had.

For instance, why is it that the Eye knows of the scams Tesco is pulling to avoid £60 million in tax, but the tax man doesn't? Why is Vodafone off the hook? Any number of companies are being let off with huge tax bills, whilst small businesses are being wound up by the revenue.

I've no doubt the bankers will have their day, but the risk to the City at the moment really isn't worth what Ed and Ed are suggesting. Besides which, I think they are being a little optimistic with what they think the banks will pay.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Absolutely, Peter J.

I am sure that foreign governments, eg Hong Kong, will offer taxpayer funded guarantees to banks that relocate there.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm with you on this JP-G. It's a bluff. There needs to be concerted international action, but the 'too big to fail' 'too vulnerable to tax' line just won't work anymore.

Besides which, as they provide a diminishing proportion of UK employment, financial services shouldn't have the stranglehold they used to have.

People seem to forget that there was a time investment bankers earned the same as solicitors, and we weren't all beholden to their (subsidised) threats and blandishments.

No more.

PS: Have you seen Charles Ferguson's Oscar winning documentary Inside Job? Eye opening stuff.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Its not the individuals I worry about but thr corp hq. That goes and its a lot of tax reciepts.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
But Pat, they pay minimal tax. As for employment... obviously it would effect London, but that's pretty overheated anyway. And the truth is London is one of the few playgrounds for the ultra wealthy. Not many want to relocate Dubai or Macao.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
"they pay minimal tax" err no this is very wrong. You dont cite facts just opinion there Peter and referring to London in that way is very shortsighted.

Perhaps you'd like to talk about where the majority of the tax take comes from?
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I'm talking about the investment banking arm, not retail banking which (for obvious reasons) won't relocate.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much tax Barclays Capital paid?

I'll dig out the links tomorrow.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Oh, read the newspaper reports of their corporation tax payments. You might also consider that of the billions of profit made by Barclays (£11bn?), a very large chunk went to the bonus pool, whilst only £670m was distributed to shareholders.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Pat C,

But they don't produce anything, Pat. Just as money changes hands at the racecourse, nothing is actually produced - it's a zero sum game.

We don't applaud bookmakers for the "amount of tax that they pay" and neither should we applaud financial services for the amount of tax it pays.
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Wouldn't have had you down as a gambler Peter.

Problem is the banks have four of a kind and the Labour Party just a pair. Even with the connections, the coalition are left with a weak straight.

Unless you can suggest a scenario that'll give the elusive royal straight flush to any politician, the gamble is a deserted Docklands and a service industry in tatters. The stakes are a little rich for me to play I'm afraid.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
The film is making a VERY big impact in the US, Peter. Good wishes to you. I'm just reading, but occasionally provoked to make the (very) odd comment.
J. Peasemould Gruntfuttock @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Hi JPG, it's great to read your comments; your presence is sorely missed on here.

I do understand the need to comment less.

But please don't go away completely.

Are you really in Seattle?
(Reminds me of Frasier!)

If so, have a lovely time.

Jo
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I know the feeling. I'm commenting less. But then some piece of arrant misinformation goes unchallenged and... ach... can't help myself.

I can't rest while someone is still wrong on the internet!
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Peter J,

" ...piece of arrant misinformation ..."

I hear what you are saying, dude ...
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Peter B

You called me a dude! Well I can sleep sounder in my bed now, bro.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Peter J,

"Dude" - first heard the expression in 1977 from an American - I assure you it was meant in the sense of Merriam Webster's* definition (3), not (1) or (2)

(* excellent dictionary).
Peter Barnard @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
A little while ago EM was advocating diverting money from the banks to pay for child tax credits, a bit later to fund keeping tuition fees, at one point to prevent the cut in housing benefit.

Next he'll be promising an Anne Summers voucher for every woman in Britain.

Is this the One Big Idea? The last banking tax under Labour produced less than expected and it was Gordon Brown who said it couldn't be continually repeated.

We want real ideas for growth, not fantasy.
Sue Kirby @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
It makes me wonder who's advising Ed M.

I feel that whilst floundering in the early days, he's turned to Balls who's secured the chancellorship and is now driving the agenda.
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
That will be one Gordon Brown and Neil Kinnock
Robert phew @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
You're far too quick to dismiss the circular firing squad I'm afraid. Dan Hodges' piece in the New Statesman, coupled with blogs and news interviews since points to the fact that Tony Blair isn't going to let Ed keep critisising his project.

We've heard it all. From 'New Labour wasn't that bad' to 'Let's not forget (fill in your own blank) during the New Labour years' and it's coming from the front. This isn't some stealth and dagger attack. Campbell isn't hiding behind double talk, he is openly expressing his love for the New Labour project in his blog. There are articles in the Observer, Telegraph and even here on the LL with Blairites wanting us to forget the cash for honours, the foreign wars and the long running Blair/Brown struggle for power over office.

It is all very well discussing how to win another general election, and I've realised over the past few months that the Labour Party and the activists that support it just want to win, it doesn't seem to matter how, just as long as people tick Labour. Nobody really wants to address the problems of the country, they are far too busy looking at the problems of the Labour Party and wondering what they can do that is easy to do and will attract that plump middle ground.

Full employment is an empty promise as the current shadow cabinet haven't the first clue how that could be achieved. Affordable housing? Tackling the cost of living?

It has taken over eight years for the Labour Party to realise that immigration isn't necessarily a great thing when it isn't monitored properly, so now they talk about it, completely ignorant of the fact that the immigration problem has turned into something totally different. Another eight years until they work out what that is then?

All I'm saying is, there is an internal battle coming just as there has been after every Labour defeat, but what needs to be different is instead of the focus being on what Labour can do to win an election, the focus should be what Labour can do for the country and its people. Concentrate on that first and let the electorate know that is what is being done. I've given over waiting for Ed's new politics, he's still playing with his Punch'n'Judy puppets every week, so the best Labour can get from Ed now is that he identifies the right route to the electorate, and it isn't by looking at the New Labour project through tinted glasses.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 3 days ago
Hi Bill,

Sunday's YouGov poll was interesting: despite only 33 percent of people thinking that Ed M is doing well as Labour leader (compared to 41 percent thinking that Cameron is doing well as PM) Labour now has an 11% lead. http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/YG-Archives-Pol-ST-results-11-130111.pdf
David H @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Surprised at the low figure for Ed M, I think he comes across well when he doesn't have the clown sat next to him, but with the whole 11% lead for Labour, I can't help thinking about those polls just before the general election, they weren't exactly accurate. Not to mention the sample size being what, a couple of thousand people?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Winning shouldn't be the priority, I would rather lose an election on a brilliant manifesto that addresses the real concerns of people in this country, than one that is there to simply please everyone.

We have to deserve to win, not just get in because of a desperation to win or because the government fails. There is a temptation for this to simply be all about gaining power again no matter the cost. A new government must have a clear road ahead, there's nothing quite as bad as arriving in office and not knowing what to do.
Jack Bonner @ 30 weeks and 3 days ago
Jack,

Why do you think we might lose if we had a "Brilliant manifesto that addresses the real concerns of people in this country"?
Hopi Sen @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Well once bitten twice shy, you had other brilliant manifestos and then sh*t on us.
Robert phew @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
The problem is Jack there are many here who will openly state that winning is everything, that you can't make a difference from opposition and any number of other excuses to why it is right to ignore the real problems and concentrate solely on the win.

There are times when I wonder what the distance is between the Conservative party and the Labour Party. They both seem to be more interested in the money than the problems of society, and it is questionable how much they really 'represent' anyone.

It would be great if they had a timely reminder of who is serving who. The arrogance of certain Labour MPs just amazes me at times. They seem to forget they are in that position to represent the people, not to dictate or look down their noses. For that matter, that could well apply to some who contribute here on the LL as well.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 3 days ago
Re that last sentence. Meaning?
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Right.

So apparently it was my questioning here that was used as justification for a whole torrent of abuse throughout this thread last night. Comment after comment; and on the odd occasion I did actually manage to respond, was deleted by the same poster.

I see JPG has also received similar treatment.

I realise it was a mistake to "dare" to challenge or question a comment which I thought might be pertaining to me or another poster; but in the light this same person has made comments about me in the past, ie:
"sees herself above LL," I was merely checking, as I think it's unfair to make insinuations about people in their absence, especially on a public blog, read by many.

I regret challenging this person now, for how I have been subsequently treated on this thread and others.

I believe no one has the right to say whatever they like about other people on a blog, especially when it is patently so untrue.

I don't believe there is any excuse for treating other posters in this way.

My intention on LL has always been to add useful or constructive stuff, as many others here.

But equally I'm not prepared to be bullied, heckled, or spoken about. I would defend anyone on here against that kind of treatment, regardless of opinion.
It is a matter of principle on a community forum.

I am actually disgusted by some of what has been written here, and what was deleted last night by the same person.

It also has to be said I am not part of any kind of social group or "group think" on LL, so do not receive the support or consensus that others might when incidents like this occur.

I am very sad that brilliant posters like JPG have expressed disillusionment and feeling deterred from commenting.
The danger is, the forum could end up being dominated by the same opinions, with a lack of balanced perspective.
Or that newcomers could be put off by the aggressive tone.

This is no criticism whatsoever of Mark's moderation, or LL persae. If anything, I'd imagine it's an uphill battle to maintain a modicum of reasonable debate and civil dialogue.

So I'd like to say thanks to Mark for having to trawl through this stuff day after day; also to those who have shown decency by adding some support when it's called for, on this and other threads.

It's utterly tedious to be getting bogged down in personal politics, when actually it's the real issues that count, and we want to engage in.

But how does one strike a balance via a blogging forum?

For now, I'd like to leave it at that.

Thankyou, Jo.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Here are a few observations for you.

I think your whole posting style is to pump the positive and downplay the negative. I guess you want everyone to be saying rah rah the Ed's. You see negative aspects as something not to be discussed, I feel you want to brush them under the carpet.

You make things personal by telling us who you respect, some may say the inference is that those who you don’t name are not respected. The ones that you do usually name are those with similar views to yourself which having repeated them so often is easy to understand and you may say this is forming a clique, pumping their statements if you like.

JPG, has a similar, its all ok at Labour stance; well some of think it’s not and unless we get it out in the open and fix it, we will be in opposition for another 5 years; rah rah or no rah rah. I don’t think he is a brilliant poster either, just another person on LL sharing an opinion that’s generally in line with the party line.


You challenged Bill because you are paranoid, and it's come back to bite you. Moreover you bring this on yourself, repeatedly you comment without reading the article (your admission) or openly admitting you know little of the subject, again you constantly state this. Makes you wonder why you reply to your own posts repeatedly.

BTW you are commentating and not blogging and "persae" is "per se".
Pat Cooper @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I don't recall speaking to you or about you anywhere on this thread Pat, so find your breathtakingly rude and innaccurate comments here quite extraordinary.

Are you aware that "paranoia" is a form of mental illness?

Do you think it is OK to bandy about these terms towards other posters?

I have worked for over 25 years with the public on the frontline in the NHS, in many difficult and challenging situations.

NEVER has anyone approached me or spoken to me in the manner I have been referred to on this thread.
Including people who have been suffering severe mental illness, or under enormous stress.

I am considered an open and honest person, and have many friends outside the blogging forum.

The reason I write here is to share ideas and try to learn a little about politics, which interests me. Why should I, or anyone be deterred from that?

The point about blogging is that it seems to remove the veneer of normal civility and respect between people, for some.

It's no wonder that blogging seems to attract so few women, or maybe even to politics.

You may not like JPG's views, or other who share his opinions- but I have never seen him gratuitiously laying into anyone on LL.

I don't care what people's views are, so long as they can express it without personal vitriole.

The assumptions made here about other people are misleading and innacurate.

I will continue to stick with posters I have come to know and respect, regardless of their opinions.

So like it or lump it Pat; I suggest you go your own merry way.

Jo
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Pat

Many faulty observations there, probably due to a cursory partial reading of comments, and a relatively short time on this site.

J-PG, who's been commenting here for a couple of years, is actually a great critic of Labour, and voted Green in the last election. His main critique is from the left. Peter B - who's also been commenting for years - is really a good old fashioned Social Democrat, and is a whizz with figures and statistics. He manages to make his points without being personal.

As for myself, I have no party line. I recently rejoined the Labour Party after a 15 year absence. I have different stands on a number of different issue, and I'm happy to debate with left and right, Green Party members or Tories - and there are several of the latter here who manage to contest important ideas without vitriol or personal abuse.

My main disagreement with your judgemental comment, and many of Bill's in this thread, has nothing to do with politics or ideas, support for Ed or not, but a persistent focus on personal attacks on other commenters. To any outsider the bluster of these comments comes across as bullying, blustering and inappropriate. Bill can make great forthright comments, but can also - by his own admission - often lose his temper. Your intervention here only aggravates a personal conflict, further lowering the tone of this thread. Let's just stick to the politics, shall we?
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
It means exactly what is says and considering it is written in plain English, it should be easy enough to understand.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
I see.

Couldn't work out if you were referring to MP's, or contributors/bloggers on LL.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
To clarify I was refering to certain contributors here on the LL. Why, is there a problem?

Not sure you can class the MPs as contributing to the LL as it is unlikely the majority that appears in their name is actually written by the MP, delivered to the LL by the MP and they never reply to comments.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
OK, have to be brief for now;
it was the suggestion that some LL contributors were "people dictating or looking down their noses" without being specific, or discussing with them; more about them, in their absence.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
I wasn't aware that I had to be specific or discuss my observations with anyone before I comment.

Can't really see where you're going with this but I'm sure you believe you have a point. Is today really the day for embracing irony?
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
Well, let's put it another way Bill.

If you had discovered someone had written that about you in your absence
as a talking point, you might well question it.

Especially if it was wrong.

Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago
I think as this is a public blog, one is entitled to question what might be a comment directed at another poster in their absence.

As you have commented some time ago that in your opinion:
"I see myself as above LL"
it just had a resonance.

I'm sorry I ever raised it.

As for your nasty comment about me not being a "beacon of truth" that is indeed ironic; as one thing I can't be accused of is not being open and up front.

I wasn't "dictating".
I was questioning, in the light of what you have said about me before.

I also don't care whether you have an interest or not.

Thankfully, you know absoloutely nothing about me, so I'd advise against any assumptions or casual remarks.
Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Lets see if I'm allowed to respond by saying that nothing I have written in my original comment was anything to do with you at all. It would be arrogant to presume this wasn't the case.

Is that okay Mark? Anything you deem as offensive in there or will it be deleted just because I wrote it?

Getting beyond parody now.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
Well done Mark. Delete my response, but leave hers.

Unbiased as always I see.
Bill Dewison @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
@ Bill

That wasn't Mark. Anyone can report a comment as offensive. I done it to both of yours. Please stop.

Mark will no doubt review both deletions when he wakes up. I hope he'll stick by them

If you want I can mark as offensive your comment to him. Please feel free to do the same to this comment if you're in agreement.

These last four comments really belong to the trash bin (where they're still visible)

Too much meta. Please delete this too when you've both read it.
Peter Jukes @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
So it's OK for you to refer to me and others in this way- but not OK for your insinuations to be questioned?

Best to leave it here Bill, but QUIT the personally directed commentary, whatever your opinions.

I don't know how you can complain about lack of fairness when you have so much space to express your opinions on LL, as you so freely do.

But referring to other posters or directing personal commentary is NOT OK.

Hazico 28 @ 30 weeks and 1 day ago
I think New labour will win the battle within the party, but the Public may well decide that the Tories for all the mess they are making will be a better bet then Newer labour, Ed will go and David will enter the race, and I think labour will be back again in the same place as it was during Thatcher. Thatcher was not trusted but labour was even less trusted.

For the love of me I cannot yet see a reason to again vote labour
Robert phew @ 30 weeks and 2 days ago