Women on Men

I do too Lulu.

But honestly, do you? How would you react if an average kinda guy approached you and told you he thought you were amazing and wanted to date you (assuming you’re single)? For most people, your third point would kick in.

Even if a guy says, “I think you’re cool, we should hang out” (or something similar), and they aren’t interested already, it tends to scare the girl off.

I agree with you Smidgeling. I think too many people have put way too much emphasis on being mysterious and challenging (i.e. waiting a long time to make a move). Sure we like a little challenge here and there but it gets frustrating after a while.

Lulu, telling a girl your true feelings is like telling the Nazis your mother is Jewish. It may make you feel proud for a moment, but will certainly lead to you having your heart torn out and stomped.

Women can only see the world from their perspective - hypergamy (trading up). Thus when you tell a woman you really like her, she thinks you are doing it for the same reason she would do it - only as a last resort because the object of her affection is above and beyond her reach. And as she is only interested in those out of her reach, you have just inadvertently shown her that you are not only in her reach but below her. This is the quickest way to be “friended” and forgotten.

@ Lulu
Speaking your mind is one of those theories that always sounds great, but doesn’t work well in theory. There’s an art to saying you’re interested without coming on stronger then a bad French perfume and making them run to join the Foreign legion.

@ Smidge
Having actually had that happen to me on several occasions (but with an ‘average’ girl approaching me) it’s very awkward. It’s very flattering, but usually makes you do a Houdini. Where’s Chaos gone? He was here a second ago… If you can’t do (disappear that is) you have to politely turn down her advances and become as interesting as a Ken Henry tax review.

Lulu,
I used to take things slow at the start of a relationship so I could be absolutely sure I needed to get rid of all the other chicks I was banging.  Women confused that for chivalry…
And it attracted them rather than scared them off.  Making a woman wait a month before pants down makes them desperate to please…

Chaos- m question is, was she in or below your league? I think SSR’s views on this principle are not limited to women…

@SSR

“This is the quickest way to be “friended” and forgotten. “

You’re one of the only reasons I read this blog.  Spot on as usual!

What if you are getting non-verbal signals from a lady you work with that you know is living with her boyfriend but you also know isn’t totally happy with him.

Is she practising her flirting moves or is she into me?

@Smidge - Well if it was someone I was getting to know and they were honest with me, I think I’d really prefer it. I mean, it would lead to a lot more disappointment for the people sharing their feelings if they’re not reciprocated, but it would save a lot of time that’s normally wasted on people!

@SSR - I partially agree, but once again, I just think it would be a time saver if people were open about their feelings. Yes, more people will be hurt, but when it’s right and the feelings are reciprocated it’ll put everyone’s mind at ease!

@Chaos - Completely agree.. Sort of like that movie where people can’t lie (forget the name). Ideal in theory but a complete fail in practice! Once again - just a time saver!

Ah Lulu, exactly.

Well if it was someone I was getting to know and they were honest with me, I think I’d really prefer it.

That assumes you are already interested in them somewhat. That is once they know YOU are hooked. We’re talking about the very first move that shows any romantic interest whatsoever.

never actually just say: “I want to be with you”

Its the kiss of death as SSR pointed out. The only time this would work is when the ´chemistry´as you girls call it is in full swing and its redundant to say it anyway.

I´m now used to shadow-boxing and operating in the grey area of ´are we, arent we´. Now that Im trained and can use it to my advantage, why would I want to give it up by hamstringing myself?

@Smidge - I don’t necessarily mean “getting to know them” on a romantic level. I mean friends, new people you meet. It’s not always about hooking up when you meet someone new!

That assumes you are already interested in them somewhat. That is once they know YOU are hooked. We’re talking about the very first move that shows any romantic interest whatsoever.

Even when you first meet someone - I’m fairly tall (5’10) and I’ve had numerous guys who are shorter than me come up to me when I’m out and I think I respect a guy more who has the balls to approach me, regardless of the circumstances. I think it’s admirable that men make the first move. I mean, although times have changed, most women still want a MAN not someone who has too much pride/is shy/scared to approach a woman they find attractive!

@ Lulu
Do you wear heels? If you do you’re actually 6’0” to 6’1”. Are you one of these girls who prefer the ‘man’ to be taller then you? You seem surprised that shorter men approach you. If they like what they see, why not?

One of my female friends is gorgeous, is 6 foot plus and wears heels! The intimidation height factor is hilarious. Those ‘angry little short men’ do not know what to do!

I’m 6’2” so haven’t been in the situation that many women I’ve dated in the past were taller then me, however it didn’t present any diffculties when they were.

I think technically they were shorter, but wore killer heels.

I mean, although times have changed, most women still want a MAN not someone who has too much pride/is shy/scared to approach a woman they find attractive!

Lulu, that comment kind of sets your gender back a few decades. Shouldn’t a woman be just as capable, therefore just as expected, to make a move?

You have no connection work-wise (ie you don’t have to deal with her on a daily basis), so just ask her out for a “coffee-date”. Include the word date so your intentions are clear, but it’s chilled enough to not put her off.

You know, or you can just do nothing and wonder “what if” forever.

Confused, you are suffering from oneitis. The only cure - go out and hit on twenty strangers, get numbers and then return to work. Then when you pass this girl, say I’m heading out for coffee (whatever) tonight, you should come. If she says no, shrug and ring one of the twenty you chatted up. Don’t place any importance on any single woman until you have slept with her. Women can smell infatuation. It stinks.

Hi Confused,

Most of us gets rejected at least once. It is FAR better to be rejected than keeping quiet. Yes, rejection does hurt but there are too many fish in the sea. What happens if another guy asks her out tomorrow and she says yes? You lost your opportunity and she may say “I’m currently seeing someone”. Next time you see her tell her “ I’m going out for a coffee..wanna come along?”...easy. Breaks the ice.

@ Confused
If you ask her out and she turns you down, its only awkward if you make it awkward. My suggestion would be ask her out over the water cooler discussions you have. Mention something you want to do (whatever that is), and see if she wants to join you after work. If she says no, who cares?

If you bump into her again you can still talk to her and even mention (whatever activity you suggested) was awesome and she missed out.

Otherwise wait for the XMAS party and do the crazy chicken dance, Richard Nixon impersonations or improv mime. That always works

@ Confused
If you ask her out and she turns you down, its only awkward if you make it awkward. My suggestion would be ask her out over the water cooler discussions you have. Mention something you want to do (whatever that is), and see if she wants to join you after work. If she says no, who cares?

If you bump into her again you can still talk to her and even mention (whatever activity you suggested) was awesome and she missed out.

Otherwise wait for the XMAS party and do the crazy chicken dance, Richard Nixon impersonations or improv mime. That always works

Confused - go with the ‘coffee date’ for sure, it’s low pressure and low risk, you can play it down if she doesn’t smile and say yes.

During my years working in a govt department building with multi floors i’ve asked out two men not in my direct work branch, one said no (was already attached) and the other happily said yes. 

@ Chaos - your Xmas parties sound interesting!!  Does the Nixon improv work though????  that maybe showing ur age there lol.

I am going through the same thing except I am a girl and he the guy. I have to sometimes work with him but not close enough to “suss” things out. He is is higher up than me and is on another floor . our office doesn’t socialise after hours so no chance getting to know him out of work other than going up to him and asking him out. I seem very confident and sociable to others but like you, confused, when i like someone i become shy and useless.His section is also a boys club and I am afraid if it gets back to them I will never hear the end of it. He seems to flirt with me but then again he also has alot of charisma.....I keep assuming if he was interested he would just ask me out.

Confused, I think you should just take a shot. Put it this way, if you’re not going to be in meetings etc together as you are in a different department if should be easy enough to keep a low profile should things go bad.

Next time you see her maybe say something like: I know this is random, but I figure you’re one of those people I bump into. I’d like to get to know you a bit better, fancy a coffee after work sometime?

You can also ask a few questions to see if she’s single eg. what suburb do you come from every day? Oh yeah, who do you live with out there? etc. Doesn’t have to be so direct, but you get the point.

At worst she will see you as a nice person who wants to get to know you a little better. Mirror her body language when you go out for coffee, try a little witty banter or saying something thoughtful when she discloses things she is interested in. You’ll soon get an idea of whether she’s interested or not.

If not, no biggie - think of it as practice for when you find the right girl

I wouldn’t do anything.  This is a work situation.  If she rejects you in the office, u can guarantee that everyone on that floor will find out very soon.
Why wouldn’t you keep your professional life and your social life separate?  There could be very serious career consequences with what you plan to do.
what happened to meeting girls through friends or hobbies?

Confused, if I were single, and a guy asked me out for coffee in the work situation, its casual enough that I would go regardless of whether I was interested or not. If nothing else, I might make a new friend. If you do ask her, dont ask for a coffee - date, but a casual coffee. Suss out the situation over coffee, then if she seems remotely interested, tell her you enjoyed having coffee with her, and would she like to go out for a drink with you some time.

Having said that, there are always people who just rub me the wrong way, and they would get a no thanks. Although they’re usually the type who would ask me out for a coffee in the form of a “work chat/meeting” (so I cant really refuse), and then claim the expenses from work.

Confused, you are suffering from oneitis.

Quoted for truth.

My advice is that whatever you do, make sure it is out of work hours. Next time you´re at the cooler, tell her you´ve completed a stressful project and your going for a quick drink straight after work.

You want to disassociate both of yourselves totally from the work environment so you´re just two people out having a drink. Coffee during work hours won´t be as effective even if it´s slightly more likely that she will agree to it.

Last time I did this it turned out to be a 6 hour instadate with kissing at the end. Good luck.

BeenThere DoneThat, you’re one of those girls that leads men on and then pretends she doesn’t know what is happening. If a guy asks you out for coffee and you don’t know him very well, it means one thing, he’s into you. Denying that and going out anyway when you have no intention of reciprocating his interest is why men have a justifiable gripe against women. Women want it both ways all the time. They want all the attention and ability to choose, but none of the responsibility when the results of their choice are uncomfortable. This is the modus operandi of the grrl power generation.

So essentially what we’re talking about when it comes to not making a move is fear of rejection. 

I just read on another blog that men get rejected more before sex and women seem to get ditched/rejected after sex.  But essentially both sexes are guilty of the rejecting.

Thoughts?  Both are painful obviously but something clicked with me.  Both sexes thik they are the rejectees!

Thanks guys for all the feedback. Still yet to “bump” into her by the watercooler but when I do, I’ll jump into the deep end.
Thought I’d add a little bit information as to why my confidence with women that I’m attracted to is fairly low. I’m not bad looking (at least 6-7 on most scales so I get told by others), I’m a very social person, and I have a lot of friends who are female. My personal issue is that I have a very mild form of cerebral palsy - I’m able to play sports (I actually play indoor cricket, basketball and touch footy) but when I walk or play but I have a noticable limp when I walk or play.
I’ve had a couple of flings, and long term relationships but most have ended badly. One gal dumped me for a guy who was a complete douche but was a smooth talker and she got caught hook line and sinker, another dumped me because we weren’t compatible (found out later from her friends that it was because of my limp).
My last long term dumped me at the tarmac after an overseas trip. She told me she needed to be single for awhile only to hook up with someone after a couple of months. It’s taken me up to now (over a year) to be happy in my own skin.
How does one get out of these mindsets when my limp (along with these experiences) are something that I can never change?

@ Gigi
Well those XMAS parties, when I worked at a larger firm where wild affairs. I don’t think I could survive them anymore. Luckily my XMAS parties are now a lunch and everyone gets to go home to have afternoon nap.

Do the readers even know who Nixon is? Guess not.

@ Confused
Cheers for the additional information. I can see why you could have a confidence issue and fears on possible future relationships. Just work on yourself, talk to ‘potential’ partners as you would a buddy you have known for years. If you radiate confidence, you attract confident people.

You’ll find what you perceive of yourself is never what other people see. Not everyone is staring at your limp.

ps Those women sound like good people to be with a ‘past’ relationships.

Not all women get offers all the time Smidge - so it can have the same effect when someone makes a move that we’re totally blown away also.

Your bi friend sounds rather interesting - i would have interpreted that situation the same way as you and been a bit disappointed.  though it turned out well for you in the end lol.

Of course there are exceptions Gigi. However, I think you’ll find it’s more correct to say that “women don’t get offers up to their standards all the time”.

Hmmm- thats a whole different can of worms there Smidge.

Ponders do i get good or bad offers???  mostly good.  Have had an offer from a cross dressing man to meet for a drink with him dressed as a woman - is that a good or bad offer???  Lol.

Heh, in my experience, good or bad is totally unrelated to “up to their standards”.

You say that like it’s a bad thing to have standards? We all have things we need to find someone worth spending time with, some physical some emotional or mental.

I’m sure you do right???  No skanky cheating hoes who cannot carry on a conversation would probably be one.  And, seeing as ur a sexy, fit young thing would be quite fair to want to date or shag other women who were athletic or at least fit also.

@ Smidge
I actually think some gorgous women don’t get approached as much as we think. Guys instinctively think they are getting hit on all the time and don’t bother.

That bi-girl you describe is weird. Who hits on someone by telling them someone else they want to sleep with? I guess she is in that alternative crowd and they do think differently.

‘Slow and steady’ only works in Aesop’s fables.

Standards are fine and dandy, but when it comes to saying “I don’t get any offers” I find the vast majority of women are referring to not getting offers from men who they see as the whole package.

When guys say they don’t get any offers they mean they literally don’t get any serious offers, or at the very least, no offers that are even slighty decent.

My proof, women I have asked out on a date (and been turned down by) have turned around and bitched they “don’t get any offers”. Gigi, you know me...so what do you think of that?

Smidge, you’re right. Women are always looking up. The approaches made from those below don’t even rate a mention. That’s why all the stuck up cows in Sydney say there’s a man drought in every couple of years. There has never been a man drought, but the millionaire movie star drought continues.

Most of the problems that happen in the dating scene happen for one reason and one reason only - women cannot face reality.

Mate did you have a threesome with the bi chick?

@Smidge - all your romantic moves were wasted. Now, if the girls were honest straight out, you wouldn’t have had to bother with all the moves! If people were honest, moves would not be needed. Generally speaking (excluding the bi girl), most people can tell when someone’s interested, they just have reservations because of their baggage. I take chances on heaps of people I normally wouldn’t approach if they have the balls to approach me and speak to me. It definitely takes courage and I’ve even dated people I didn’t initially find physically attractive, but through getting to know them, ended up establishing feelings and sticking with it! So in cases like that I suppose if I came straight out and said “you’re ugly but interesting” I’d probably be blown off and told I was shallow. I don’t think I’m shallow in the way I act now, but if my thoughts had a voice - different story.

Damn you people for making me think of scenarios which make me change my opinions hahaha

“All my best romantic dating moves were wasted on people that didn’t deserve it or in situations I should’ve let go”.

Why do you think that it is?  I reckon we all make that mistake at some point.  I’ve done it once or twice - they so didn’t deserve it.

gigi - women do get offers all the time, we just dont always realise it

Smidgeling - maybe its a woman thing, but I’ve had flings where the guy then wants to turn it into a relationship.

SSR - you’re from Sydney? That would explain a lot

@ Smidge - what do i think of the moaning whiny woman you wasted attention on - stupid!  I don’t get anyone that doesn’t appreciate attention then makes up crap they don’t have offers.

I see your point - as i have said numerous times - i’m blunt, so at times perhaps men have subtley been interested but i’ve not picked up on it.  I just know i don’t get too many courageous men coming up to say hi out and about, apparently i seem quietly confident and that is offputting.

Razrea- it happened because I’m stupid f@#king school boy when it comes to love.

BeenThereDoneThat- Again, always an exception. I’ve done that on occasion too. But it isn’t common, so people should be wary and not expect it.

BeenThere DoneThat, if you’re not in Sydney, you’re camping out.

Standards are fine and dandy, but when it comes to saying “I don’t get any offers” I find the vast majority of women are referring to not getting offers from men who they see as the whole package.

I think this is quite astute. Its more common in the inner city.

Smidge “I’m stupid f@#king school boy when it comes to love”

he he we all are!  The ones we want the most we try too hard for.

@SSR
I read this blog just to read your comments. When I first became single in my mid twenties a couple of years ago I started going out heaps and I was dominating with the ladies.

Lately though its a different story, been a drought of some time to be honest. I certainly havent put on weight or changed my attack that much, maybe my best is behind me and I should try settle down. Not what I really want to do though…

It may not be a case of “up to standards”. I am so not used to men approaching me that if a guy does, I run scared...unless I have known him as part of a larger group of acquaintances for some time.

A total stranger will get blown off, an acquaintance will get the time of day but if he makes any moves before I have gotten to know him, well Im out of there. I dont care what he looks like or how wealthy he is, if I feel unsafe (and a stranger wanting my number makes me feel unsafe) the guy stands no chance at all.

The last guy to try this was a well dressed, nice looking, English speaking European in Austria. Who knows, my flight instinct may have cost me a millionaire or a prince 8)

Jane - I second that. But for me it’s not just flight instinct it’s also “I don’t know you and you don’t know me. Maybe I’m a serial killer? Maybe I’m an inner-city stuck up Princess? Maybe I want to grow my hair to my ankles and join a cult? The only thing you know about me is what I look like, not who I am. And liking me purely for my looks is offensive as the only thing you really want is sex. So f*ck off”. Now if you’re a friend of a friend, someone’s colleague and we have a drink and a chat before you ask for my number *bam*. But if you’re a stranger at a bar? Get the hell away from me.

JDOG, go and read the wealth of material on the internet giving advice to men on dating. In particular look at some of the lifestyle stuff which shows you how to dress, diet, gym etc. You can’t be complacent in the dating arena.

If you’re doing it right you should be getting more girls as you get older, not less.

Never Ever Settle. You’ll be doing yourself and the girl both a big disservice.

And liking me purely for my looks is offensive as the only thing you really want is sex. So f*ck off

What about women who ask what a man does (eg his status and earning potential) in the initial conversation? Can men tell them to f*ck off?

If you expect to be able to pursue your own interests while denying men theirs, you may be in for a rough time.

Jane- that is just plain stupid. Why shoot yourself in the foot? If you aren’t used to guys approaching you this is even more of a big deal…

Kate- Looks are the advertisement that make people want to enquire about the details.

Oh and by the way, chances are, if I have approached you without knowing you I have still seen you interact with your friends wherever we are. Or I have heard how you spoke to the cashier/bartender/flight attendent.  Whatever you’ve done makes you seem sweet/nice.

Of course I’m making assumptions about you...but what I’m saying is that is also why I approach women. If a women is acting like a total bitch I won’t approach her no matter how smoking she might look.

@JDOG, I’m just spouting what I have seen and what I know personally works. If you’re game is feeling a little tired, it’s time to up the inner asshole. Lean back, enjoy how good it feels to push out your chest, not take life too seriously and beam with the irrational self assurance so few are capable of - then twirl those princesses around like the wonderful lifestyle accompaniments they are.

Flip the female script. Put yourself in the position of a hot chick and the lines will flow.

“You’re not one of those girls that goes to bars picking up guys are you? I’m a one woman man.”

“Do you work at the ASX? I need a woman to take care of me?”

Then check her wrist for a Rolex.

But if you’re a stranger at a bar? Get the hell away from me.

We get it, Kate. The little girl cowering behind that gargantuan bitch shield wants to be valued for her unique little soul and not for the way she looks. And she should. It’s just a shame that shield will prevent her making random connections that may lead to satisfying relationships. I have a feeling the shield is much too large for little Kate to carry.

i’m still not convinced that women should feel entitled to be lazy emotionally and let men do all the work.

This is a reason that many men who aren´t the most attractive 10% resent women. Despite feminism helping women shirk off traditional responsibilities, this is one burden that men can never be rid of. It will not change unless there is a real man drought like in Russia where women take classes to attract men.

I must admit there have been times where if it is obvious a girl is making me jump through hoops then I´ve just switched to pump and dump mode. I like my women supportive and nurturing (feminine traits), not selfish, self absorbed and lazy.

Social conditioning at its “best"…

I agree with Smidge - challenge the status quo - live ur life boldly....

Besides if you never ask men out - do you fully appreciate how difficult it really is to make a move?? Just saying......

Yep of course women like it much better this way.

-Man has to initiate things and take charge
-Man has to take all the risks
-Man has to take on possibility of rejection.

Seriously, who does like opening themselves up to rejection?

It must be easy living in your world where people should offer you everything and you have to do nothing.

If you don’t pursue anything then all you’ll get is what’s coming for you. That may not be desirable and you might miss out on someone you desire because they didn’t pick up on your vague “signals”.

I used to know women who said they liked the man to chase them and prove to them that they were special. It was pure ego and extremely unattractive. They are still single and for good reason.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’ve tried it before.

In my experience though, men don’t really like a woman who is that forward. Or perhaps I was trying with all the wrong men?

Besides, I like a man who can take charge and put his balls on the line if he wants something.

Much more attractive to me than one who sits back waiting for me to call all the shots.

Maybe it’s all a matter of the personality type you’re attracted to, and has nothing to do with gender at all.

I made a move on a guy who turned me down (very politely).
I still cringe thinking back now...... not sure how guys put themselves out there like that.

I agree with 30dollardate to an extent, and it’s not just because I’m female and like the easy road. I’ve asked out my share of guys in the past. One guy in particular was showing signs of interest, but just not making any moves, so I got in there and initiated things myself. I found out after a while that his whole life was full of “I dunnos” and “whatevers”. The whole experience has lead me to think that if they are wishy-washy and not at least a little gutsy in terms of making a move, then the same can be true of their lives in general.
In saying that, some guys do like to be chased a little, but the ones I’m referring to are the ones that just don’t have any balls!

So you women in agreement are agreeing because you have tried asking someone out once or twice and it didn’t work?

Try working on your approach for years on end, often getting to the ‘why bother?’ point, before rebuilding your resolve to soldier on, then get back to us

You’re off topic, 30dollardate, so you’ll forgive me if I quote myself:

Ultimately, the responsibility for you finding a good partner is yours alone. If you think you can sit back and do nothing, and just pick the best (and least sleazy drunk) of whatever crops up in front of you, and that he will be your perfect man and you’ll live happily ever after, then more power to you.

Also:

When a woman tells you to ‘man up’, she’s merely trying to manipulate you into doing what she wants by emasculating the alternatives. 

not sure how guys put themselves out there like that

Because men don’t have a choice in the matter. We put ourselves out there or resign ourselves to a life partnership with our left hand (yeah I’m a lefty ).

Choice is very often only a privilege awarded to women.

@Markus - I had said I agree to an extent. In this modern world of equality, then by extension things should be mostly equal. That still doen’t make my observations less than true of a certain subset of people. In my situation, he didn’t do the asking, and he didn’t have any drive. At all.

If it makes you feel any better, I have asked men out recently, both succesfully and unsuccesfully. Just because I like a man to make a move, doesn’t mean I can’t do the same myself.

As one of those cave dwellers (I prefer forest lurker), Turquoise, you’re exactly right.

It is difficult from our perspective because it feels like we’re talking different languages and can’t fully understand all the signs.

However, it is one of those “give a man a fish/teach a man to fish” situations, too, so I couldn’t agree with you more with how to approach us.

Onya T it sounds like you have crystalised your feelings about that guy.
Onwards and upwards !

Leon Wolfe (and others)...

What causes a guy to be like that?

Past relationships? Social conditioning? Parents and childhood?

And also, why are some men able to go, ‘Oh well, that relationship didn’t work out, I’ll sit in a hole for 6-12 months then try again’ whereas some almost act like ‘I’m never getting into one of them again.’

It’s hard to fathom this complete ‘retraction’ from life.

Sort of like watching a game from the sidelines and never participating…

What causes a guy to be like that?

What causes anyone to exhibit any particular personality traits?

Personality is a complex cocktail of genetics, upbringing and personal experiences.

Your sitting on the sidelines example is perfect.
As a sideline viewer, you get to appreciate most (not all) aspects of the game without the risk of ever getting hurt.
You miss out on some of the fantastic highs involved in playing, but also avoid all the crushing lows.

@ Turquoise…

I’m not sure about other guys but for me it was school, I would actively ask girls out and as a result get dumped on just for considering it. So after being humiliated I gave it up.

The stupidest thing about it all: it turns out most of the girls I asked out were into me but their friends weren’t, but damage is/was done and I never asked a girl out again, sure went out on friend-dates with ‘em and those went further but not once was it a “you wanna go out?”.

The bright-side now is that I have the best wife ever from a simple friend-date and yeah she had to make the moves but she knew my story and knew that I would never make the move because of what I had been through.

I appreciate what you guys are saying, but a life lived in the shadows by CHOICE seems like a pretty lonely one if you ask me…

Hi second point:

Girls, how many times have you made a move on a man actually in or below your league?

Wow. None. Interesting.

Is so true. If a guy isn’t out of their league, women expect the guy to make the first move.

Are you attacking me, EK? How cute. With your fiery red hair matching your spite-filled words. A darling little emoticon and that profile photo that says, “I’m leering at you handsome. Make your approach.”

Hotties throw themselves at a miniscule proportion of men, and just with the ugmos throwing themselves at me, these men are above the pink cheeked princesses gushing at them. A momentarily pretty face and slim figure is no match for a lazy billion in the bank. Women always trade up.

You know, even when you offend me, you still make me laugh.  Well done.

Even ugmos need love.  Maybe you’re one SSR???

As for hot sober women never needing to make a move, i call bullshit on that one.  But then you need to define ‘hottie’???  Are you talking impossibly genetically perfect that less than 1% of all women can be or normal hot - nice curves, great sex appeal etc etc.

Ek,
You’re just proving SSR’s point

Girls, how many times have you made a move on a man actually in or below your league?

If SSR wasn’t hot enough to have a sober hotty approach him it’s because the only people hot girls would approach are those hotter than themselves?

Or
possibly you just think because your friends have approached men in the past that SSR isn’t right? I think that feeds nicely into SSR’s other point:

the only women making moves are those forced to by necessity – Ugmos

Gigi, I’m talking about those girls you just know every man, married or not, would sleep with if she propositioned him. There are quite a few out there. I’ve seen them.

I’m very well aware that I’m not in the equivalent percentage of men. I just hate all the lying. Tell the truth people. This is how it is. We all know it. Why dress the truth up in fancy clothes when it is a vomit-stained-tracksuit-wearing junky?

Sorry EK, I have to agree with Sad Sad Reality.

Another example: when was the last time you or any of your girlfriends (or female readers) took notice of a bus driver or garbage man? Or made a move on one of them? Some are actually well built, enjoy their jobs, and are obviously reliable/dependable, but most women wouldn’t know they exist unless the bus they’re on stops or their rubbish isn’t collected when it should be.

@ Dave - i told my bus driver last week i thought he was cute!

Please don’t think that all women only go for uber alpha successful CEO types, as that’s bullshit.

I like who i like and i make it known, job doesn’t matter to me, personality and mental compatibility is far more important. I take care of me, not a man’s job to do that for me thank you.

Guys, how many times have you had a sober real hotty make the first move on you?

Actually a few times.

Girls, how many times have you made a move on a man actually in or below your league?

Following on from the above, maybe the women in question had placed their SSR dating rulebook at home?

Lol, Dave are women supposed to crack onto bus drivers while they are driving?  Or wait by their wheelie bins for the garbo to turn up so they can bat their eyelashes seductively?

But that’s just it SSR - ur truth is not necessarily the same truth for everyone else on here.  That’s all, different experiences for different people.

On a side note - i was online chatting to a guy who reminded me a lot of you… i even asked him if he wrote on this blog, hahaha.  Wasn’t you, but reminded me a lot of your writing style.  Was an interesting verbal debate.

I have had a fairly hottie ask me but it was in a work environment and she knew I said that I don’t ask girls out at work, To many potential problems, from a chat we were having with another colleague that like someone else. Otherwise I don’t think she would have.

I am a bad judge of standards as I rate myself quite low(I was always fat in high school and I can admit it has left me a little damaged in confidence) but based on the girls that I hang out with(and your assertions) I mustn’t be that bad (but logic is overruled by emotion when you are going up to someone you fancy, and I go all shy which is not me normally). But still I have low standards at least physically (I don’t mind a bigger than average woman if she has a pretty face) I really get turned on by intellect and personality or maybe it’s I don’t get turned off, Even if the girl is gorgeous If she is stupid and says dumb/uneducated things I have trouble even getting it up, there is a particular very awkward 1 nighter where she was hotter than I thought I could get(and one of the few times I was successful when I did the asking and she hadn’t made it obvious), but driving back to her place she was so dumb I had a headache before we got there.

This all depends on how you define “make a move”.

I’ve had a hot woman turn up to where I hang out with the intention of meeting me and then hang around to talk to me all night and we ended up going back to my place.

I’ve had another hot woman say after a mutual friend introduced us “you can call me” and gave me her number.

I would classify both of these women to be 8s on a scale where Megan Fox and the Victoria’s Secret Angels are 10s and Katy Perry is a 6 (because she’s a wall-eyed butterface with a bull-neck).

Well I made a move on a bloke in my league (you know, as best I can guage leagues SSR but you and Smidge may inform me otherwise). Both young, both law students. I liked him, so I went with it. We dated for 4 years. We did get a bit of weird feedback from ‘friends’ at uni, one of whom said to me when I first broke the news “But you’re such an it girl on campus and he’s such a nerd?!” I didn’t really know how to respond to that.

Truth is, genuine attraction doesn’t make things easy by following rules or stereotypes: I wanted dude, I didn’t see how pouting wistfully in his direction would get me that goal given his generally shy reputation, so I took the initiative. Very pleased I did!

@Dave - Sorry, not up early enough to see the rubbish man and I don’t catch the bus. But there is this gorgeous man that I see every so often driving past as I walk to my car after work. I definitely notice him! Haha if my garbo was a great guy and we got along, I’d give it a crack.. but for the very few times I have seen garbos - they’re mostly old/unshaven etc. and not the “sexy’ unshaven look the “homeless guy who looks more likely to be riding in the back of the garbo truck” look.

@SSR - Sadly, I actually agree! I have never made a move. I’ve shown I’m keen, but never actually taken the leap! But it has nothing to do with people not being at or above my level at all. I just wouldn’t. No one wants to be that desperate chick who’s more like the “snu snu” on Futurama than a lady. I’m a little old fashioned when it comes to dating in that aspect. I think these, although a lot more women have “offers” a lot more men are the deciders of whether something gets serious or not.

Also, I would be far too nervous to make a move on a guy above my league - do women actually do this?  I’ve met some really beautiful looking men but I would never ask them out!

Bitten- you may be an exception, who knows other than people who witnessed it first hand.

Take SSR’s point of view as truth that has been exaggerated by bitterness and doesn’t apply to all women, paticularly those not in the 18-29yr old age group.

I think my little hamster must have died.

Bitten - I’ve also made moves on guys but never the scary ‘pretty’ ones!

Guys, don’t forget I’m trying to be entertaining here, hence the hyperbole.

@Gigi, I think we should stay just friends. You mean too much to me, I don’t want to lose what we have. Now listen to how this hotty clawed my heart out. Do you have tissues?

@Chaos. Were they the girls everyone else in the bar wanted? If so, congrats you’re in the top 5% of Alpha male awesomeness. I’m not talking cute, I’m talking stunning, take your shoe off and bang yourself in the head smoking. These girls approach no one, just ask Lulu.

@Bitten. Young cute law students? If that’s your league you better look like Ally McBeal.

@Mr GG. We’ve all convinced ourselves at one point or another the slightly tubby cutie from the finance department was slightly hot. It wasn’t true then and it’s not true now. But get the action where you can chief. Life is short.

@Charlie. You raise a good point. The hot chick you describe was presenting, which is about as far as you can hope a genuine hotty will go to grab your attention. She’ll be there, around you, available, but I’m betting you still had to carry 90% of the conversation and “win her over” even though she was won before she walked in. Thus is the game. And the “you can call me” thing smacks of a chick that thinks you should be honoured to call her. Good luck with all that.

@Lulu. Isn’t the truth awesome?

@Raz, “I think my little hamster must have died” is the work of a Carl Lewis like hamster breaking the sound barrier. Congrats, you’re a super self-deceiving fembot extraordinaire. You should have T-shirts.

Yes Bitten, it does.

A lot. Gigi can attest to me being somewhat attractive...but I have LOTS of rather fat, not very attractive, not very successful and not very interesting women make passes at me.

My housemate suggests that it is caused by me being a generally nice guy to everyone, irrespective of their looks and that these girls are not used to guys speaking to them like a human being.

Well I agree with Bitten.  Wouldn’t even consider approaching someone not in my league, that’s just opening yourself up for rejection.  But saying that in my single days and even now I get men that i consider below my league approaching me.  Now i’m not gorgeous, but i’m certainly not a dog so why do men that are short, fat, sometimes toothless have the balls to come up to me?  I admire the confidence they show but seriously do they see something different when they look in the mirror. 
Oh and league to me means appearance, dress sense, all first impressions stuff.  After the first impressions you get to know them and if you like them it doesn’t matter what they do for a living or how much money they make. 
Regarding the original discussion, I don’t agree that men have to make the first move or that they are better at it.  I’m just personally not great at approaching people as it’s out of my comfort zone and am very grateful that my man approached me.

@Bitten. I misread your post. Apologies. You are the exception that proves the rule.

Smidge - not true for me - i’ve gone for men waaay out of my league - i’ve amazed myself a couple of times too!!  But that’s another story.

SSR - just curious - are you younger or older than 30?  I’m wondering if Sydney women are as ‘bad’ as i’ve heard, sorry ladies, but i have heard it many times now that Sydney girls are very shallow and want to know about career etc before being interested.  Surely not true eh??

Gigi, Sydney is the undeserved entitlement capital of the free world. The girls here are bitchy, stuck-up, demanding princesses and hot as molten lava. Such is life.

SSR - you make me laugh!  Aw snookums we can be friends - i’m too damn sexy for you anyways.... the guy online reminded me of you simply because of his rhetoric of putting women down a peg then ‘trying’ to get into their heads (and more), you’ve mentioned ur technique more than once and it seemed reminiscient of you, perhaps you read the same literature who knows.

Yes Smidge - you’re attractive, and nothing to be ashamed of being nice to people less sexy than yourself.

SSR - yes you’re right.  I must have exhausted the poor little hamster.  It’s what living in Sydney will do to you.  Will go out and throw myself at first available theta male I come across and beg for marriage

Gigi - I was talking to a guy last week (he was from the UK) and asked him what he thought of Sydney.  He said it was very ‘imaged’, but still more laid back than London.  I have heard from a number of male friends that some Sydney girls do the whole ‘what do you do, where do you live’ thing VERY quickly in a convo.  Not sure if it solely a Sydney problem though.

Smidge, why do the fatties always think they have a shot? I guess if you’re so body dysmorphic you can’t tell you’re too big for a single seat in economy, then your chances of knowing that men find you repulsive are equally (wait for it) slim.

Well Smidgeling, I have to say those girls must be taking over-confidence pills. How awkward for you - what do you say to them?

I guess we can’t ever truly know how others perceive us.  I was certainly taken aback by the remark one of our friends made about him being a nerd and me being an it girl. If you’ve never thought of yourself as one thing in particular (hot, ugly, whatever) people’s opinions may surprise you.

SSR - all is well. I am concerned though about the women you meet. Where are the real and non-personality-disorder suffering women? Apparently not in Sydney…

I’ve asked most of my previous boyfriends and have been betrayed as a result. One even cheated on me with 2 men.

As for my bus driver, I think he’s a little out of my league.

I would much prefer a man to ask me out, but not to do it while I’m at work or on my own late at night (too creepy for me). I don’t think either of these is too much to ask.

As for money, I don’t care what anyone else earns as long as they are responsible with ie: not racking up thousands of dollars of credit card debt on crap.

Man you have got this so wrong. Most encounters are set up by women. At a party or club they scan the available men and if they see one they want the first thing they do is position themselves so they notice them. This includes the hotties or notties.

Then the male comes along and makes a move on the woman believing they are the instigators of the encounter. During the first 5 minutes of the meeting she decides whether she wants to continue or not.

Most encounters are set up by women.

You’re partially right Robbo. Some men are aware enough to place themselves before the woman’s scan though. So who really starts it then?

I will definitely agree that women choose for sex though, but I think quality men choose for the relationship.

but I’m betting you still had to carry 90% of the conversation and “win her over” even though she was won before she walked in. Thus is the game.

Yep.

And the “you can call me” thing smacks of a chick that thinks you should be honoured to call her. Good luck with all that.

Women only have as much power as you give them. But I bet you knew that.

and hot as molten lava

Not all of them. Some of them have the same entitlement complex as the hot ones but aren’t even remotely attractive.

Will go out and throw myself at first available theta male I come across and beg for marriage

Now there’s a smart woman. Pitch yourself at what you can get and don’t end up being one of those sad 40 year olds hanging out in bars that are even well beyond their league.

I just tell them we’re incompatible or don’t have similar interests. It’s the nicest way I can think of. I don’t want to crush their self worth.

SSR...

I’m in Sydney too.

Maybe we should meet and I can prove you wrong - bahahahahaha

Man you have got this so wrong. Most encounters are set up by women.

Robbo, I know what you’re saying here. But I hardly think twisting your hips in the direction of someone you’re keen on is in the same league as crossing a crowded dance floor, moving close to the object of your affection and saying, “Hey, I saw you from over there and I just had to come up to you and say… you have something in your teeth.” That takes nuts. It’s the reason only men have them.

Turq, I know you’re excited, but just bide your time. An unplanned meeting will be that much more thrilling. Imagine how fun it will be to wake up and see SSR 1 : Turq 0 as the screensaver on your computer.

Wow, long thread!

“don’t end up being one of those sad 40 year olds hanging out in bars that are even well beyond their league”.

Yuck - I don’t do bars now, why would I want to when I’m 40?  Meh we’ll see.  I’ve never enjoyed ‘dating’.

Smidge “I just tell them we’re incompatible or don’t have similar interests. It’s the nicest way I can think of. I don’t want to crush their self worth”.

Yeah that’s about all you can do.

MrGG I would ask a guy to hang out, but I wouldn’t profess my feelings for the guy. I’m all up for people showing they’re keen, but wouldn’t actually make a move to make things more serious. Not sure if that differs from your opinion as you haven’t made it clear whether or not you’re up for a women making the moves in terms of first kiss, making things serious, moving in together etc. But I would definitely NOT do that. I think men are more likely to have committment phobia than women so I wouldn’t want to freak someone out that I’m interested in. I see it this way - if the guy hasn’t made a move when I’ve shown I’m keen, he’s not interested, so I move on. If that’s not the case, it’s his bad luck I guess. I believe in fate, so what’s meant to be will happen and everything happens for a reason.

My favourite moment was the homeless guy in West End who asked for two dollars, and then promptly asked to take me out to dinner. That showed moxy. Sadly I was taken, so had to decline.

Yeah, right.  You expect us to believe that the only reason you didn’t date a homeless dude is that you were taken?  LOL.

Well, primarily, yes. What am I meant to say in response to this, other than asking if your parents are related by blood? If I wouldn’t cheat on my fiancé with a stockbroker supermodel, what makes you think I’d cheat with anyone else?

Given that I spend a goodly amount of my time volunteering with the homeless and I’ve come to know them and their situations, I’d say that there are some I’ve met who I’d happily go out with.

I like ur no bullshit comment, very true.

“Yes, men are better at making moves because women simply don’t make moves, unless of course they’ve had one too many drinks or they’ve passed the age of 30.”

Dan, you say that like women over 30 are desparate..... 

@BeenThere
A lot of the single ones are, especially those that have nothing in the way of personality now that their looks have started to fade.

Others though, are just now finally experienced enough to realise a desirable guy isn’t going to magically appear and sweep you off your feet, that you may actually have to go looking! :O

Number 4 is spot on Dan. Women blame men because we don’t notice the near invisible changes in personality and body language which she uses to indicate to a guy, “I’m yours - come and get me.”

Of course when her friends point this out later on and you talk to her about wanting to pursue it, you get the famous line, “You Had Your Chance....”

I’ve got that line more than once, I can tell you. 

Dan, you say that like women over 30 are desparate.....

Sorry for the misunderstanding but that was not my point. I should have emphasized it a little better.

I’ve always said a girl doesn’t become a woman until she reaches her 30’s. That’s when all the stupid little games and idiotic behaviour tends to stop.

Most women in their 30’s (and older) seem to realise what is they want in life and not what they think they want like their younger counterparts. These more mature women end up with their heads screwed on properly.

I’m only in my mid 20’s but I get along better with women who are 30+ years old I guess because they’ve been there and done that. Almost all girls around my age (18-28) irritate me to no end with their silly little mind games.

Of course the same could be said about men but I wouldn’t really know as I don’t date guys. I’ll leave the man-bashing to Kate. 

BeenThere DoneThat, if they’re not, they should be.

I’ve always said a girl doesn’t become a woman until she reaches her 30’s. That’s when all the stupid little games and idiotic behaviour tends to stop.

I agree, but in my less charitable moments I would say that some only develop that maturity as a necessity because the number of suitors chasing them drops remarkably so they have to be nice to be more attractive to the men around them. That and their biological clock.

So in other words they’re only being nice because its in their own interest. Just like the ‘nice guys’ that women complain about.

Dan i really like the points you make about women over thirty knowing what they want - it’s flattering it applies to me so i’ll say thanks!!

I’ve never played little girl ‘come hither.... no go away’ games, but i know so many that do, annoys the crap outta me to see.  Though, i have been able to steer my younger brother in the right direction at times and told him the bullshit games that were being played and to walk away.

Interestingly i get along better now with guys in their late twenties than men older than me, I’m finding a lot of older guys are in the ‘i’ve fucked around but i’m older now and want to settle down… and ur a nice woman i could be serious with’ which would be fine if i simply wanted to get married and breed because woe behold i’m over 30 now and need to ‘settle down’.  Trust me, not only women have that clock ticking.

Now if someone could kill the spider lurking in m room i could get some sleep, aaargh!  This is why i love you guys, you kill eight legged things for me.  Note to self Rexona spray does not kill spiders, **sigh**

So in other words they’re only being nice because its in their own interest. Just like the ‘nice guys’ that women complain about.

ByStealth, I’m sure we both agree that this is why women despise nice guys. They see acting nice from their own subjective experience as a manipulative tool to land a mate.

Gigi, it does if you put a cigarette lighter in front of it.

Seriously Guys, just say what you mean, if your not interested, don’t lead Women on by fucking them and not calling again, you wonder why Women are angry towards Men when they do things like that.

By the same token, Flossy, don’t pretend you don’t realise when men are openly flirting with you.

Men pump and dump women aiming way out of their league. I have witnessed so many 6s believing they deserve relationships with 9s it makes my brain hurt. Sure it happens with guys too, but those guys get nothing (unless they are gametastic).

These women seriously believe that when they throw their vagina at some alpha stud, after knowing him for a couple of days, he is going to fall madly in love with them. There are men all around that will love these same women honestly and deeply and they are continually looked over in favour of the pumpers and dumpers. Well, that is until the women reach the dark end of thirty and these hard working, intelligent, honest men become something to settle for. So it’s no surprise that guys see this going on and think “I’d rather be a pumper and dumper than an honest schlub who ends up raising some alpha scumbag’s kids.”

If women took a little responsibility for their messed up choices, the world would be a much less cruel and bitter place. When that happens, I’ll change my avatar to Happy Happy Joy Joy Reality.

if your not interested, don’t lead Women on by fucking them and not calling again

Obviously you are shooting above your league.

Personally, I’d call, but in my experience, women don’t like to hear: “Look, you’re a terrible root, and the token 2-minute blow job doesn’t make up for it. Also, your tits are a bit saggier than I expected and your vage looks like a furry oyster just sneezed while trying to keep its mouth closed. I don’t think it’s going to work out.”

Men pump and dump women aiming way out of their league.

Again quoted for truth.

Look, men will often have sex with the best looking available woman around, but the best men know what they are worth. Sex does not guarantee you a relationship (but its certainly a prerequisite). Women need to have realistic standards. Personally I don’t care if they do, but it really is in their own interests if they wish to avoid heartbreak.

Another way of looking at this is the woman that will sleep with a pseudo-alpha goodlooking muscular cavemen on a girl’s night out, but would never consider him for a relationship because he has the personality of a rock and no career potential. Many girls would say this is fair and they don’t advertise to the man beforehand that its only a one night stand.

Tit for tat.

“I’d rather be a pumper and dumper than an honest schlub who ends up raising some alpha scumbag’s kids.”

And that kids is how players are born..

I call bullshit....

I have been on more than one date with men who were far more successful than me career wise who upon learning that i was a mere government pleb were not keen - they wanted someone they could take along to their law balls etc etc.

so yes - it happens to both sexes.

Gigi, aiming out of your league again I see. Interesting. And I’m wrong how exactly?

Ah SSR - ur now trying to make me out to be a gold digger who goes on dates with rich men???  So out of ‘my league’ means any man that makes more money than me - as i can most certainly hold my own mentally and emotionally.  You’ve not proven any point whatsoever Sad.

What exactly is ‘out of my league’???  seeing as you don’t know me.  How do you determine success, only monetarily hmmm.

The one particular man in this scenario i’m referring to was a Bond University graduate who had not got a job yet but kept on and on about his family’s property, the tedious law ball he just had to go blah, blah fucking blah.  If that guy was out of my league then i’m glad, as he was cute, arrogant and bored me half to death.  And no - i didn’t know his wealth nor care before going out on a date with him.  Just saying that some men care about ambition and money just as much as women grilling you about stock portfolios.

Which to me, as long as i’m giving the impression i’m not in debt or expect you to pay for my lifestyle, why care???

Gigi, please give the hamster some water. He’s burning off the screws holding the wheel together. The little guy’s done enough running for a Friday.

Totally agree on the breaking up one. If you aren’t committed to your partner anymore, leave them. Don’t sit around waiting until you get a chance to jump to another ship.

I’ve had several girls I’ve shared interest in later down the track ask me, “How come we never ended up together?”
Umm, because you had/still have a boyfriend?

Every girl I’ve experienced this with did not seem to comprehend my point - that my existence has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether or not she loved her current boyfriend enough to continue that relationship.